Staking Landscape after the Shapella Upgrade

Transcript

foreign [Music] ladies and gentlemen the final panel discussion of the day please take your seats it's going to be full-on in-depth super super interesting and the person who's going to lead the entire discussion about staking after the Chappelle upgrade on ethereum is Aaliyah so take it away Leah thank you very much thank you all so much for being here it's 5 20 on the end of day two and you're all still here so the first round of applause to yourselves for the stamina

[Applause] good job team and uh this is a really topical panel because when we looked at the description of it they said there's a scheduled upgrade in ethereum and here we are actually two days after the upgrade so it's a really good time to I think be talking about this especially with this distinguished lot of people that I have here so before we really dive in I'm gonna ask you guys to kind of go down the line and introduce yourselves um who you are what you do and how you got here really quick though it's not true so hey guys a pleasure to be here I'm Elio Israeli by origin and I'm the legal counsel of state capital mainly

stake Dao so deep down in the deepest space and I'm in the production space since 2010 doing many stuff since then building stuff not always as a lawyer so entrepreneur also in the last years I'm mainly dealing with law amazing slime cool uh I'm Nicholas Kunkel uh I'm was a founding member of maker Dao currently I am the Oracle core unit facilitator at maker Dao and more recently became the founder of Chronicle

Labs who is building a decentralized Oracle protocol awesome and Mara doesn't really need an introduction but I'm going to ask her anyway I'm the CEO at alluvial we're an Enterprise great liquid staking protocol that's focused on enabling mainstream adoption across the market prior to starting alluvial I actually manage the business and sales team at coinbase cloud and bison Trails before that so I spend a lot of time in the staking space over the last couple of years and very excited about our discussion awesome and Michael hi I'm Michael massilla I'm CEO of pillar project and also is the sport and with ethersport we bring an account

abstraction solution what I mean by that jargon is we try to give Wave 3 a web to like ux so we talk about Mass adaption if it ain't usable it's not going to be adapted so I'll talk more about that tomorrow I'm just plugging in so thank you and Mario uh hey everyone thank you so much for coming um and Mario I work with ethereum foundation in protocol support team so um vertical support is generally helping with like coordination I've been um I'm doing some research and I've been actually helping a little bit with Chapel testing and so on and I've been running uh the protocol Fellowship uh

created toys for creating entropy using cats and stuff like that yeah perfect perfect picking with shabella since it's basically the top of everyone's mind right now and to you Mario um how do you think the upgrade went well I mean the ethereum is still running great uh yeah let me check it's making Vlogs right um yeah I mean it went pretty smooth uh we so technically speaking like um I don't know what else to say we got uh we get few very minor backs uh the participation rate with the attestation dropped like five percent maybe so the normally ethereum is operating with like 99.5 and more uh personal validators at

this thing and um uh working and uh we need like two thirds which means 66 or like I don't know say 70 percent would be like the bottoms yeah very good when uh it it the lowest we saw like was 94. something so around five percent less um and this was just minor bucks there was bugs with prism uh and Mev boost uh there was a minor bug in Lighthouse which caused a lot of CPU usage because uh after the like during the fork we saw a lot of um uh the the updates of the of the keys which you need to do to withdraw the funds so so um that just clients is going to handle

but generally it was smooth it's it's there and of course the the biggest upgrade of the ethereum uh now is finished thanks to the push zero which was like the most important thing in Chapala do you know about Brazil actually yeah push zero uh pushes zero on the stack you can do it with the opcode push and zero like pushing zero but now it's in one code and you can save one byte it's like the best change in the okay uh it's I'm trying to throw a little um sorry so like the withdrawals were the main thing but there was other small changes on the evm so it's yeah it's all running or smooth perfect would any of you guys want to add to that feelings about chabella and the upgrade should I say something I I hope you take

a deep breath I was expecting something it's a deep personal thinking um well I you see the heater value going up everything is okay everything you know really it's part of the this this Evolution that we see in the economy the merge went okay people were afraid from the marriage nowadays everything is smooth you even less hear about it by the way uh some of us were surprised from it maybe and to see it you know happening so smoothly and also it's a major change also by the way all these stakers that were waiting so much time for some things to happen is is not

obvious at all and it I think you can see it's a an expression of trust in the in the community in the in the ideas in the major project project in the space and uh yeah this is my perspective but if I take it further I'm excited by the opportunity and the challenges that it brings things we don't really talk about when we talk about the liquidity side is the apy rate being taken as potentially as the risk-free rate for for the ethereum space and and Beyond and the kinds of products that

can be built on top of that and I find that fascinating and potential and obviously liquidity staking it could be disrupted and and that is again up for a debate so you guys have more expertise than I do on that yeah uh piggybacking off that it's been honestly uh one of the really you know fundamental Milestones I think that not just the community that's already invested in participating in this ecosystem but also players that have been sitting on the sidelines have been looking towards um when you think about participation from you know the traditional Market from institutions a lot of felt that you know the enablement for withdrawals and the period you know the duration that

this hasn't been enabled has been one of the remaining unknowns I think in ethereum you know core participation and Market sentiment um so to Echo your feedback I'm very excited to see how we you know see renewed interest and General market sentiment you know attract not just Innovation but also new participation in the space sure Nick nope everything was possibility to say about chappella right no but um I mean a lot of you guys obviously work quite deep in the staking universe and of course now that withdrawals are possible that's kind of been the highlight that everyone's taken away from the from the upgrade but um maybe looking into

looking into the sort of institutionalization of the staking Universe right how how does this impact your sort of business case and your um your approach to the market and I give this back tomorrow yeah I can continue where I just left off um I've been focusing on uh different kind of staking ecosystems for a long time over the I mean long time as long as it's been around um focusing on kind of enablement for the early adopters so crypto native participants in the really early days you know thinking about how to support at home stakers through things like the ethereum launch pad which was launched back in December 2021 the beacon chain went live first all the way to you know

how do we move along the adoption curve who is the next set of adopters that we're going to be able to enable and what kind of tools products and capabilities do they need in order to participate in the market but also contribute to ethereum's you know core security through staking participation I think one of the really interesting sort of observations through the last 18 months is that institutional participation and demand is starting to you know come into the market not just through traditional staking but also if you think about the various strategies that you know hedge funds might deploy or structured product providers the opportunity space that that enables is massive concurrently you've almost seen development and Innovation that is developed around you know what happens not just in the staking space and who

participates in it we've almost moved from a very you know monolithic technology stack where node operators or are sort of the end-all be-all to very modularized technology stack where you know now we're seeing uh key middleware Solutions around DVT and uh Mev relays right we're starting to see staking pool forms a form that provide different users different value ads or you know capabilities that people can build on top of so I'm tremendously excited for that I think we're seeing a lot of that on our side of course as a partner that focuses on you know enabling leading custodians and other partners who serve as the institutional market and really catering to that on-ramp sure maybe on your side Leo yeah I'm thinking first of all you know

institutions is a big word I've been asked this yeah I've been asked this question in various uh you know occasions and what is institutions I think when we speak about institutions people tend to think about traditional institutions and that's actually something that you see quite nice in uh in it in ethereum so staking the ability to stake in ethereum and now the the chapel upgrade is even uh open is to open this to more institutions and give them the certainty to invest in because ethereum from a legal standpoint is is like is you know pretty much clear that this is a commodity maybe may be staking

so the risk is no but the risk could be mitigated for those kind of Institutions so it could be like the traditional institutions that may have this ability to invest me invest in also of course first the exchanges and the like regulated exchanges like say coindex like coinbase Etc they can invest easily when you think about the institutional investment in the more more in the default space so this is for you know institutions that may take the risk and this is for maybe a different kind of Institutions that are more like crypto oriented in the in that regard so my take is that the change in ethereum will

give much more certainty for institutions for more kind to participate in the staking activity if I add what do you think of counterparts party risk say for instance if I am an old institution now I don't need to go to a third party that gives me another token I can just take x amount of the my uh I can buy and portfolio into directly into ethereum knowing full well I can take it back out yeah sure sure so how do you think that can then engage older family houses Old old-fashioned family houses Etc that won't dip their toes in into this space and and experiment with this asset class yeah yeah I

totally agree with you I totally agree with you and this will inject another uh you know a treasury uh to the to the industry and then all the D5 Layer Two lsds Etc will will it will gain from it of course identify that difference right when we talk about institutions as in like you know old Swiss houses like the Nestle or UBS versus state capital which is in fact also a form of institution but maybe more on the D5 side of things how would you see sort of the difference in the attitudes towards taking by let's say the D5 side of things

um of course like if we speak about uh all family houses or or a financial institution Etc they are bound to regulation they have a less ability to to take the risk this ability to do specific things but when you have this uh more oriented crypto institutions they are institutions at the end there are like the new generation of Institutions it works with a lot of Partnerships in between those so those new generation of of Institutions are actually the gate to defy to some more complex

like a real real world real world assets Etc so a lot of time you do this deals complicated deals that open that gives the ability to some traditional money to participate in the crypto space in a safe way so I think more on the D5 side of things now that we are kind of post in like a post-apella landscape uh I think there's going to be like a significant redistribution of market share um no nothing against Lido I I love those guys right uh they they clearly have a

very dominant position right now um but I think when you look at why they've been able to achieve that dominance is because they've had a one a lot of liquidity right um for for the LSD right but two right that people could also uh write that it had been integrated into you know D5 credit platforms right so people could leverage up on the yield right or you know um you know tap into the equity of of that yield bearing kind of uh asset um now post chappella uh liquidity isn't really a constraint as much anymore right

um as soon as you can redeem write the liquidity buffer start mattering a lot less and uh what that also means is that you're going to see a lot of the D5 protocols start onboarding um other lsds extremely quickly because I can tell you from the maker down perspective and I'm sure this applies to oven compound as well is that you know part of the reason why we wouldn't onboard alternative lsds or at least not with the amount of like debt exposure that users might like is because of the liquidity constraints so if you unlock the liquidity constraints you unlock the credit restraints and all of a sudden now you have a much more competitive landscape

so that following on from that right so you're saying there's going to be a lot of new competitors to Lido but what is actually the use case force a Lido um a lighter stick to East token today compared to let's say five days ago um I I wouldn't say that Lido got worse they did not right people can unlock now right it's it's safer um but everything else just got better right and so there's more of like a leveling off type of type of effect sure but would they still have a little tiny Niche because you can't just withdraw you have to wait 27 hours sure if we were slashed even 36 Days would

they have that little say oh yeah but you can take it out straight away kind of thing and for a complete like to withdraw everything you have to wait even 100 days so it's a it's a lot of time in the for a financial activities to happen but generally it was a bit constraint that just uh the the lsds uh had basically lower market value or like you had you were losing I know one percent or something um uh when you are exchanging them so now uh this Arbitrage basically won't be necessary um and yeah mentioning uh mentioning the alternative project like I don't know a rocket pool had a problem exactly with this they had little liquidity to offer um and now I hope I'm bullet bullish on

this this throws it pulls hopefully they will get more traction um thanks to this yeah for sure and it's uh I actually don't think it's a winner take all Market at all uh that's a good thing right yeah yeah I think uh posture Bella if anything as Nick mentioned we'll probably see um a lot more of a competitive market landscape and probably specialization around certain capabilities value propositions and other things that you know will attract stakers that come from very different customer segments I think go for it just to dive into that so you're saying different sorts of I guess uh value propositions around different lsds available in the market what maybe you can elaborate on that a bit more no no I mean um look we have like a very

particular approach like I've kind of seen the market evolve I've done research on this Market since like 2020. I love the different implementations that exist they all serve a very particular need have different architectural you know considerations the one you know thing that I found missing um you know when I was working at coinbase but also found missing across the other you know partners that we were working with at the time is how do we get people to be able to contribute to ethereum security using Robinhood you know knowing fully that Robin Hood is not going to be able to integrate Lido uh because you know it's it's a company that has a Compliance Unit and uh risk management arm and you know certain counterparty risk considerations and other things that you know will just prohibit from being able to enter

integrate a fully decentralized back end that is just completely permissionless so we focused on this question in the market which is how do we get the next realm of participants on and where do these participants interact transact today and how can we go away from having fully centralized architectures to centralize front-ends with decentralized back-ends and how can we be the bridge to that right um to create a compelling offering that has significant advantages to the users that have significant advantages to the businesses that are integrating it so that has been our approach I think one of the really interesting things and Michael actually said this is I think the behavioral pattern in crypto that we're going to see is like we've gone from like holding crypto which was like the first use case custody to like

trading crypto and then exchanges kind of had a big moment and sort of uh proliferating to like what is the utility function in crypto and staking naturally lends itself to the third sort of pillar uh in the adoption that we're probably going to be seeing not just across users that are starting to onboard on the retail side but also on the institutional side right so that's really like our differentiation or Focus point but again I I view different solutions as different capabilities as someone who you know feels comfortable uses a ledger and wants to use adapt love using liquid staking protocols that like offer me an interface that meets me where I'm at but most people are not there and they don't have to be right it's okay um so yeah piggybacking off what Nick

said I think we're going to see some really interesting Dynamics and I'm also really excited to make this accessible to the broader public so Nick you want to add something there you look like I'm I'm sure I I think she's kind of set at all okay then I mean of course none of us have a crystal ball but there's been a lot of sort of um let's say speculation about what we're going to see kind of happen over the next couple of weeks as the first withdrawals start processing and also what this means for the sort of Supply demand around and maybe Mario you want to jump in there um was the question a demand demand supply and demand around East as in and also I guess maybe what percentage of

eat will start to see being staked now um I mean honestly like purely subjective uh I met somebody at this conference saying well now withdrawals I feel comfortable to stake right so I can imagine that there will be more people of hopefully homesteakers who feel more comfortable coming in at part of the institutions um and uh I'm not sure if we can see that yet like I saw some charts already you can you can see some nice nice uh visualization of the withdrawals and deposits and I think in past few I mean hours it's still hours since Chevella right I like we actually saw all the

spike in deposits so maybe they will cancel out uh and we will see around the um the the roughly the same or maybe slowly I I'm like generally for the security of the network we we need or we would prefer the um the uh the deposited eat the validator's deposits going up right we need we need more security um so I'm hoping it's going to to going to still uh be inclining what worries me a bit also the lsds which worried me worry me a bit uh how the protocol Security will handle this or like big parties and uh like just to yeah reiterate I I I just hope that if we see now the landscape changing a little with

some withdrawals some new deposits that it will end up more distributed uh across different pools Technologies and yeah Michael I mean the stats so far do not show drastic movement when there is a net withdrawal but Within rooms of expectation and as an individual for instance if I'm huddling say less of 108 I didn't feel comfortable to stick by it because I don't know when this thing is going to be allowed to allow me just in case there was a run on the bank's type of scenario now at least at the back of my mind I can say okay I

can put this portion into the stacking knowing well well within 27 hours so I can take it up so as an individual I feel more comfortable even if I was a treasurer of a certain company I might think because I wouldn't I'm sorry about I wouldn't touch liquid stake and stuff because it is exposing me to another risk I'm not dealing with something some company like three celsius going down and but but do you think that's the consensus view of the average person that's I I I I agree with you personally but uh I I think that we're rather odd in in that respect um I I think if you're going to hold East you may as well get the yield from staking and I

right so to me it's just that staking number is just gonna go it will go up only um they're just gonna right it's uh yeah I don't know if any of you here have like tried to like you know stake on your own right like I have like a Dap note at home and like the upload makes it kind of approachable but like if I asked like my sister or my you know my dad to set up a validator on adapt node I don't think he could or she could um yet with lsds right when they become a bit more ubiquitous um just presents people with a really accessible way to do staking and post chappella now that you can also on stake

right they've been de-risked significantly so I I really don't see I I don't know what the scare was about like that we would see you know Mass people fleeing from staking no it's just up only from here and uh but would you see that I've yet to hear any compelling argument for for why that's not the case then would you see then some sort of innovation where their list is probably allowed me to stick my it without even touching their token but I just want to go into it is is your problem the token or just the counterparty risk on on whatever protocol you're using both count supplies and risk is always there but the token as well and what if I'm so conservative and say I just want my

ethernet I don't want to thank you either yeah it's actually really interesting because it takes the presumption that you are already holding ethereum on your balance sheet we're talking to institutional customers who aren't even there yet and they want to get exposure to staking rewards so the only way they can get exposure to staking rewards if they is if they look at you know putting Market neutral trading strategies on leveraging liquid staking tokens that can be cash settled that'll be their first entry into ethereum because they're not even at the point where they're holding it on their balance sheet and I think it's that Innovation space that becomes super interesting when you start bringing participants in that haven't even gone through the process of approving custody

holding for their entity right like that that's kind of like what I'm referring to of course there's going to be you know people between there and sort of you know the degens that are like on the other end of the spectrum and probably on this panel but um I think it's it's there's sort of a middle ground there I do agree with Nick like just on the Dynamics of what we've seen if you actually look at the statistics just you know probably people should be checking out the rated dashboard I actually love it um but if you look at the Dynamics that we've seen it's like withdrawals are there like the withdrawal queue is like probably 15 days at this point was what it hit but when you look at the composition it's actually mostly partial withdrawals which means that people are just like recycling their rewards and

then there's a small portion like five-ish percent that are actually full withdrawals people leaving the chain and people are like oh we thought this would be so much longer if you deposited your eth two years ago knowing you were going to be locked up for two plus years you're probably not trying to run for the hills anyways you were pretty long on it to begin with so I I agree with Nick it's probably only up from here like the more Innovation that continues the more we're you know creating robustness in the way that you know staking infrastructure has operated the diversification of staking infrastructure between at home stakers Enterprise takers liquid staking pools and sort of the responsibilities that we all have to ensure that we're optimizing for security in a holistic way

you know the more you know participation we're going to see on a you know risk-free rate participation in web 3. also also comparing to the other proof of stake protocols the staking in ethereum is quite low so on in the others I guess in ethereum it's 50 15 in the others so it's a 30 40. um but this isn't a sort of interesting question that kind of came from what Michael was saying before there's going to be people who will just happily you know use their Kraken or coinbase account and just press stick and then they're kind of done with the deal uh there'll be people at home with setting

up their adapnos the valley Nick is one of those people and somewhere in between I think you also have uh and with institutions who would partner directly with counterparties like alluvial um I guess what is the benefit to me running my own node at home and what are things that I should consider when doing that and then on the flip side what are the benefits to kind of just chucking it in there with Lido and maybe Mario wants to take for a Sit thank you for the question um because uh which you mentioned to run your node it's the only way how to use ethereum literally like that's that's how you use ethereum you it's the only way how can you use ethereum in truly

trustless private manner without like the whole point of this ecosystem here is like well we want to avoid third parties we want to avoid single points of failure and then you ended up using like a wallet with inferior which is like just a third party and you completely trust it um so I would encourage everybody in this room to run their own node and uh one thing is that which we don't have for staking right now but even for normal user slide clients are already a thing I believe um but otherwise for um uh I've been I've been talking to many home Seekers who just said help to set up the note at home and um it's mostly hobbyists you know like it's people who want to educate a little bit

of time so that's why you have to sacrifice Let's uh be excited about it because you are you are so you're certainly uh gaining the security the privacy and uh well the sovereignty for yourself um but on also um we're helping the whole network you are being one of those in the current setup where everything go like the lsds are growing like there's a great but there's a great article on the risks of LSD uh by Danny Ryan um and uh that's one of the the issues here right like if the LSD grow that much if it's bigger than what we need for finality on the on the consensus uh we might see some potential problems

when these big actors can actually uh abuse their power and the homesteakers those are they're only only saving us right so and it's kind of amazing if you think about it that like my little computer here at home or I mean there were guys taking it for a hike or something and like this here created next ethereum block it literally building it decided it okay maybe somebody use maybe boost but you can build the Block in your own little computer you can show your great children this was the blog built by me I'm part of the ethereum history forever so so this is what you can uh get with your own node and again like you can use depth node there are what I'm hoping to see now is actually more solutions like

depth node they are doing great job there are other Alternatives like avado there is uh stereo there is nice node and I'm hoping to see more solutions like this and if somebody is afraid of a terminal they can use this otherwise they can open up the terminal but I'm hoping there will be more like homesticking Solutions which are easy and uh also the pools that's another thing like I already mentioned the distross that pulls which enable you to stake some lower amount of dirty to eat but at the same time uh keep the severity of your own Hardware of your running the open software on your own computer right and uh I mean it's rocket pool which is going to have the eight eight there are other protocols popping having device doing some same thing and

I don't want the name specifically but we see that that's growing as well so so for many people it will become even with the lower Capital it will become easier to actually actually do this and um and yeah so that's what you're gaining and you just yeah you need time you need you need a what you need to dedicate is the machine uh instead of the computer which the core apps or like the community of ethereum is working really hard to make it as simple as possible as as save as many resources as possible that's why the gas fees are So High by the way right so so um so yeah use the opportunity to use some I mean Low End Hardware I recommend using old laptop it even has a battery

it can run your shelf it's it's you already have it lying around um yeah um yeah compared to this just to click on some Lido finger or something I mean uh yeah it will be always easier but uh you will not help yourself you will not help network and I believe that in the case of the capture in case of the well probably government or whatever Alien Invasion uh you won't see that ever again right uh so so you need the keys into your coin and there is a there is still big trust in the third parties whether you're using the lsds or or some custodial Services yeah sure maybe on the other side more positives on custodial or pooled staking Solutions or alternatives to running your own note

at home sure um I mean look it's a like you said right if you're well everyone there's a space for everyone here if you're if you're shaking at home yes you're contributing to the network right I think Michael you would probably say right I don't have to take the counterparty risk of you know this LSD protocol right so it's risk mitigating uh so right so we can say those are those are the benefits of staking at home right versus the benefits of lsds right um you're going to have defy Integrations right and so you're going to be able to uh basically lever up on staking Guild right or you're going to be able to tap into the equity of your you know staked eth right that's uh

while taking maybe a little bit more risk right um so for someone who is more financially motivated right that's probably the best approach right for someone who is you know uh believes in crypto but maybe maybe doesn't feel technically comfortable to run their own node right it it is getting easier but let's not get ourselves here it's uh you have to like you know maintain you have to like watch it every day make sure you're like hitting the attestations maybe your node goes down maybe you didn't upgrade the node in time for the hard Fork right um it's it's a thing you really have to babysit right and so I'm from an accessibility point of view right uh

someone I can totally understand that someone feels much more comfortable right going to you know a rocket pool or going to a lighter or or you know um right or or some other LSD right it's a great summary I would just like I think I also saw the visualization like that somewhere it's basically like like Risk versus how comfortable you are right or maybe yeah the leveraging leveraging the positions and stuff like this it's also another benefit with maybe more risk now now if we can stake at home and somehow find a way to plug that into D5 then I mean all that all bets are off because I follow you it just reminded me of 2017 when I was running my own

um node and to just basically see the wallet into Russians Etc and it is painful and I'm kind of foreshadowing here because I do know some teams that are that are working on this but they're still in stealth so I'm gonna keep their names private for now jumping around here guys keep your ears open yeah yeah but it's true like I think it's not just about the question of like how do we make it easier more accessible for at home stakers but also maybe how do we like take the burden of risk uh and self-responsibility it like Nick said it's work to run your own node right um I think there's innovations that are happening in loads of different parts of the tech stack I think DBT is a really exciting solution that can let at home stakers sort of share and spread the

risk of participation and there's some amazing you know teams in the audience today um that are making that possible so I think we are seeing a lot of that I think it's really really healthy that we're continuing to innovate in that direction um and support you know ethereum core and direct staking models alongside all the other capabilities that we want to see in the market to really bring crypto mainstream but outside of like the sort of ease of you know setting up your own node is there any other benefit to kind of working with someone who's actually specialized in it so with a larger pool provider or so maybe in the distribution of Rewards or I'm asking as a person who's thinking considering the two options in front of me yeah it depends who you are right

um I saw sort of the evolution of like staking as a service companies and like 2018-ish 19ish like it was a very proliferating Market because it's actually really expensive if you're a company to like build an entire team out that like runs core infrastructure and actually you might not want to just run your own nodes because that creates a lot of risk especially on a Network that has you know correlated risk considerations right so we're seeing a lot of people move away from those architectures as is which is actually good for the network to have that diversification and see that also across these you know dominant players and centralized players on the market but it really depends what your objectives are and I think it goes back to what Nick is saying right it's like what things are you optimizing for there

will always be a breadth of spectrum of solutions that will cater to those needs and that's healthy that's called like having a healthy mature Market um and different solutions that cater to that awesome we're we're at about a minute or so and I want to also leave time for questions I'm going to go ahead and assume everybody in the audience own some amount of ease but you know shoot me if I'm wrong but let's say do like a show of hands how many of you already have staked to your ease and and how many of you have staked your ease at home [Applause] there are dozens of us that's what t-shirts for you guys

I wish I had cookies to offer but I don't come um I want to quickly like check the audience so there are already somebody who has a question that's better than what's in my list and you don't know what's on my list they're all crap so anyone go questions otherwise I can keep going cookies for stakers it's like real homesteakers is like a really good idea yeah okay so maybe just going down the line starting with Leo um what are you most bullish for in the staking landscape in the months ahead oh um let me think I don't think I'm bullish on something I think I'm bullish on

everything it's uh really that's why I'm here up only up only that's why I'm here it's uh like I see it as uh Ico with the great steps so like if you ask me if in 2017 people you know people told me diff I back then I said if I were already doing this Bitcoin is defy and so for me it's like everything is uh amazing Innovation as a lawyer I'm trying to support this always so bullish on everything Nick um okay I I think with the proliferation of uh like lsds

um you're going to start seeing people use a significantly larger amount of leverage than they were felt comfortable using before you could unstake and I think you're going to have a similar kind of situation that you had when curve launched right uh right you could lock up your curve tokens and unlock you know a boost right to boost your yield from lping and curve the only problem is when everyone you know the amount of yield that was possible Right was uh or you know as an absolute amount right the amount of tokens were the same right and so when everyone is boosting no one is boosting

um but I I think it's going to be a similar situation where you're going to have people lever up on LSD yield and D5 so much that it's actually going to bring um non-lsd yield down uh like significantly right and and I think that's going to have like interesting effects of like where kind of people land on the spectrum of like what they're looking for right because the the trade-offs are going to become much more distinct sure and it's and as bullish or bearish depending on which side of the Divide you you sit on I'm I'm I'm a little bit biased yeah I honestly I think we're just

getting started to be honest like I think the amount of innovation that's yet to take place is just like you know it's just kicking off we're like literally seeing uh the evolution of like this modular stack you know continue to grow so quickly every you know couple of months there's a very new sort of you know idea or like utilization play in the market people are very excited about restaking I think most people are like optimistically cautious um about how that plays out and sort of the Dynamics it introduces in ethereum and it's like core security model but I think we're just literally seeing the beginning of this and just to call it out like food staking today has been pure Place taking right there's been

nothing going on other than that right whether you're an individual or company or an institution it's been like a one-way Road and that's it you know the journey ends there I think what we're starting to see is like a real economy or like real industry form around this where loads of different players play loads of different roles and there's going to be a ton of different opportunities within that amazing the ability to withdraw and the potential emergence of a risk-free rate activating more traditional companies to join the space I think that's what excites me we didn't talk about the risk taking about the eigen layer stuff but uh yeah uh what I'm bullish on like yeah yeah we

will sit here like it's we are we are early there is still a lot of development to do on the political level on the on the side of the ux for homesteakers for distress it's taking pools what I'm hoping for is more of this kind of stuff like better better tools for uh handling ethereum trustlessly in general but especially in this taking experience uh having more or like uh improving the experience with this throws at staking pools and uh also um also empowering the homesteakers yeah awesome and cool and all of this not to be the bad guy but regulation or the you know really because because it's like a

technical development that this is one thing that allows a lot of financial activity that is connected to the real world and this is like uh maybe a big Clash that will come or or or uh or revolution yeah and this is important also I think you need the same hoodie that he's wearing the Institute of crypto Anarchy yeah yeah wait yeah I wanted to mention guys any anybody here if you want to run your own node then you are scared of a terminal just ask me or write me I'm always glad to help with this kind of stuff if you want to help network yeah there you go call to action and then um can I get a [Music] [Applause] [Music]

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