SotN #38: The State of NFTs, with Andrew Steinwold (Past, Current, and Future)

Transcript

hey everyone bankless nation welcome to another episode of state of the nation we are super excited to have you here on the docket today we are talking about the state of nfts they've been everywhere lately they've been hyped lately they've made major newspaper publications lately everyone is talking about nfts and we brought on andrew steinwald who is going to give us the state of nfts andrew is a guy who predicted nfts before they were a thing so we're going to dig into that david how you doing today man absolutely fantastic still trying to get my head wrapped around nfts and i think the whole industry is we all are because so much has changed in the past like two to three months and a lot of bankless content around nfts lately has been uh

going to the artists going to the people that weren't about crypto that weren't about ethereum but discovering nfts and they were like wow this is really cool and so we wanted to go to the artist and say hey why are nfts cool what do what do nfts mean to you now this is the opposite we are going to the guy who was paying attention to nfts before everyone else was before they were hyped up and so i would call him he's at my personal expert on nfts and so he was also one of our two guests on the bankless episode the bowl case for nfts which i think we did back in september of 2020 uh and he made some very bold predictions that i thought were crazy back then one of them being that nfts will be like i think either a hundred to a thousand x times

larger than d phi and i was like blasphemy but now i can actually start to see it now i can actually start you know it's it especially felt like blasphemy like uh something way off the beaten path right after defy summer right in september when we were talking about the d5 had this explosive you know three or four months and here's andrew coming on talking about how big nfts were going to be and i remember andrew and jake talking about a trillion dollar market cap market opportunity it seems a lot more likely now so we are going to dig into that guys if this is your first state of the nation these usually come out on tuesdays where we're broadcasting it live on monday uh today um because we needed to to accommodate schedules but we generally release it

every tuesday this will also be on the podcast as well david before we get in we should do a couple of announcements first of all we've got the one confirmation podcast that just premiered today this is one of those podcasts i feel like it's 90 minutes of listing time but there's like a million dollars right in value inside of those 90 minutes it's one of those podcasts with investors where you're like wow this entire mental model is so beneficial to how i invest in in the future that uh like the dividends of listening to it and absorbing the material are like more more than worth your time um there there were a number of i guess i guess phrases from that podcast but the

theme of the episode was authenticity authentic projects authentic founders authentic data authentic data even and there's this this beautiful through line that throughout uh what else you want to say about that podcast to tease people and get people interested in it right so my biggest takeaway was that um with ethereum with open blockchains where all information about the state of things is equally accessible by the whole world no longer is investing about how much better information can you get because everyone can get the same information now it's about how how much better can you interpret or digest that information and so that is a new that's a different paradigm that we now have to

account for when we uh think about investing in this space someone uh you know made the quip during that episode i won't say who you'll have to stay tuned to to find out that bitcoin is money for the institutions ether is money for the people that was hot which really stuck out on me so listen to that episode definitely a hot episode speaking of hot episodes we have drake returning the podcast the justin drake of course ethereum researcher and this time this is kind of a follow-up it's a sister episode to his previous crypto economics episode which really focused more on the cryptography side of crypto economics and was insanely bullish for all sorts of interesting

technical reasons i learned you know so much during that episode but this is almost the follow-up sister episode where we're actually talking about the economic piece the importance of ether as an asset in the future justin drake calls this ultrasound money david why should folks be excited about ultrasound money there is i think that ethereum history will be divided amongst many other ways to divide up something but in in one way this way ethereum history will be before this episode drops and then it will be different after this episode wow that's this is dude the best podcast we have you're not over selling it i'm not overselling it this is the best podcast that i think has come out of the banquets podcast ever so far and you're you're totally right there's the

economic side the cryptography side and then there's and there's the cryptography side and then there's the economic side in crypto economics uh and justin drake has figured out the best meme for ether the asset ever and i think it will be the meme that lasts until the end of time wait wait better than triple point asset better than triple point asset i'm sorry to say this is you're really hyping this up david i like i just recorded it but you listened to it and you edited it so you got some extra hours and you're you're still feeling like this is going to be a fantastic episode coming away from this the number one episode this is this this episode will pivot the trajectory of ethereum for the rest of time oh my god all right well now i want to listen to

you let's see see how good it is it comes next monday guys so of course and you get that early early release date if you are a bankless premium subscriber so you can find out how to subscribe be a bagless premium member by clicking the link in the show notes all right david let's start with the question i ask you every single state of the nation what is the state of the nation today sir the state of the nation is reflecting we are reflecting as to all the crazy stuff that has happened over the last weeks and months particularly with nfts every time some new wave comes in ethereum it's always an experimental wave defy summer massive summer long experiment in token issuance and yield and protocol design and now most most recently in the

last two months we've had a new wave of nfts which have also been experiments no one knows what they're doing in d5 no one knows what they're doing in ethereum we're all figuring it out together and now that this nft mania has kind of gone on for two months now um i'm actually gonna ask andrew if he actually does agree that this is a mania maybe that's not the right word but a lot of experiments have happened in the last two months now it's time to reflect what have we learned where has the trajectory gone differently than we expected or the same that we expected we're just integrating new information we are reflecting on the recent experiments of nfts that's a yeah well-timed episode i think because this is all going to be about sort of a summary of the capturing the

state of nfts today with andrew and we'll get to that in a second one last thing before we cut to sponsors is coindesk is having a consensus event that is their annual conference in may you've got like 11 hours i think from from the time that we're recording we're going live to get that at early bird discount ray dalia will be there why is ray dalio there has been a question is he interested in crypto hasn't been in the past but why is he attending a crypto conference i am definitely not going to miss that event so if you want it at a discount use the bankless code uh click the link in your show notes with that david we should thank the sponsors that made this episode possible if you are looking for a product that

connects your fiat bank account with d5 tokens and products you need to download the dharma mobile app dharma is a non-custodial smart contract wallet and comes with a bridge that connects you right into your bank account dharma is the fastest and most efficient wallet between your fiat and your bank account and any token on uniswap or even any vault in urine with dharma you can get over 25 000 per week into the dfi universe and you can do it non-custodially if you or anyone you know is hot on defy and you're trying to get your money into a defy investment dharma is the place to go signing up and going through kyc is an absolute breeze it took me just under three minutes and after signing into my

bank account via plaid i am now just one transaction away from any token that uniswap has to offer go to www.dharma.io that's d h a r m a dot io download the dharma app and get yourself unbanked today if you want to live a bankless life you need to get a monolith defy visa card monolith is both a one-two punch of an ethereum smart contract wallet as well as an accompanying visa card that lets you spend the money that you have in your ethereum wallet wherever visa is accepted it's really a fantastic tool that lets you use ethereum for what it does best which is holding and managing your financial assets but also keeps you connected to the rest of the world's

payment rails monolith also offers on-ramp services for getting your fiat money into the world of defy so it's trivial to top up your monolith card if ever you need to and your deposited money goes straight into your non-custodial wallet so your money is never held by a centralized intermediary because your monolith wallet is native to ethereum monolith helps you transcend both the legacy and the crypto worlds because the money that you hold in your monolith wallet has the power of d5 behind it swapping assets on unit swap or earning yield in d5 is at your fingertips but with monolith so are the groceries at your grocery store or the coffee at your coffee shop go to monolith.xyz to sign up and get your monolith visa card today

guys we are back with the state of nft's episode with andrew steinwald the perfect guest to have this episode with he is an investor at this uh fermion fund also he publishes the metaverse uh which is one of my favorite newsletters that cover the nft space i've absolutely been dropping alpha since the early days he's also podcast episode leader on zema red actually zema red is the name of your newsletter andrew sorry not it's about the metaverse i should say um andrew it is so awesome to have you it's been a few months actually but like the first episode we had you on we wanted you to articulate the the bull case for uh nfts and that was back in september

well my friend it seems like we are in a bull market for nfts do you feel sort of validated with your your nft thesis because you were talking about nfts before they were a thing before they were cool before they were doing 70 million dollar art piece sales uh how are you feeling right now do you feel validated yeah so i'm feeling personally i feel weak because i just had a surgery last wednesday so that's why my voice i you know seem a bit pale and weak but besides that in terms of like mentally i'm on top of the world i think it's incredible that um to see the thesis play out in real time is amazing and to kind of be writing about this and talking about it for quite some time now and to see it catch on to the wider mainstream audience is super super

amazing i think it's incredible that um people are getting it's like it's almost like a trojan horse for crypto because people are like oh i i like art i like gaming i like collectibles whatever and those kind of simple use cases can bring people into crypto so they can learn about bitcoin they can learn about ethereum they can learn about defy and uh then they get access to this wider world that is just so revolutionary so um it's it's awesome to be honest it's very busy um but no i'm very happy to see it play out and i still think um yes we are in a frenzied period right now but i still think that this is like just like defy we are in the very very very early stages of this that's going to be a multi-year kind of decade multi-decade kind of thesis play out for for this

asset class uh andrea can i share something with you this is uh you you know a hundred percent like in no

way did i anticipate mark cuban and chamoth to be going on cnbc in bloomberg talking about nfts in 2021 i i figured that would happen in like 20 24 or three four years down the down the line um but like it is blowing all my expectations uh completely out of the water from where we are today like when i first set up uh the funds um it's a fun fully focused on nfts uh we were at one to two million dollars in monthly trade volumes right um and two million dollars was a big it was a major month for us and then you know to fast forward to today um to see in february we had 175 million dollars in one month that is like no nowhere on the horizon i thought it was going to take years

one question i have okay give us those numbers again sorry we were dealing with an audio so 175 million this month is that we said so in february the monthly trade bond was 175 million when i first started which was you know september of 2019 so it was kind of a while back but one or two million dollars per month but even in august of 2020 so pretty pretty you know pretty recently it was 2.5 million dollars per month was like the trade volume we were looking at so it just you know the past december january february has just been wild how do you account for this growth like what's happening yeah so it's it's kind of a layers of different factors but first of all traditional finance we're in a massive bowl cycle right you know stocks

are all all-time highs uh crypto we're in a massive both cycle cryptos at all-time highs um the crypto wealthy they're not really they're you know if they want to offload their ether btc position well well within the money they're not thinking okay i'm going to go buy a rolex and buy a house like they probably already have those things they're like i'm going to go flex i want to buy a punk you know crypto punk i'm gonna change my avatar to a cryptic punk and um you know like i wrote like i wrote for you guys it's like the new rolex is like a crypto punk and uh um i think that to have these assets that are part status symbol and part financial asset is really really appealing to a lot of people and then so that's kind of like macro and and crypto micro but then

also looking at the use cases in general they're super appealing to everyone so you know and i always do like the mom test so i'm always like hey mom like okay i've been talking about bitcoin since like 2013 and she's like i have no idea what you're talking about um but i say hey mom i can i can play a video game i can earn money or mom there's these collectible cards and they're like on the internet and you can trade them and make money and stuff like that and she's like oh okay like i i get that it's understandable like there's art and it's online it's digital right and she's like i get that so i think the use cases are so appealing towards a broader audience not just this kind of crypto native crowd which is really important for for bringing on more

people mom does not care about austrian economics if i know one thing about mom or or monetary theory eyes glaze over right but definitely the nft use case with with artists that mainstream knows in real life this is appealing um but you mentioned something in there about kind of the the status symbol and the the newly crypto wealthy is that are those the folks that are buying these like beeples for for 70 million dollars and and these crypto punks and jack dorsey's you know was a 2.5 million dollar uh tweet as an nft is it is it is this coming from inside of crypto all of this all of this funding all of this cash is that where it's coming from or some also coming from outside definitely

the the curators and the um the the artists and the creators are coming from outside crypto that much is clear to see but the demand is that still mostly inside of crypto yeah so there's certain levels so so the higher end you're talking the hundreds of thousands to millions that buy range out of that price range it's mostly crypto natives and when you're talking the the lower range you know anywhere from like 20 bucks to you know a couple thousand that's more the kind of the newer people that don't have exposure um and what's interesting is that as these people basically the more time you get involved in the space the higher your conviction that's pretty much the same as in crypto and um and then you start to put down you know higher dollar amounts so maybe the new person starts with nba top shot

and you spend 200 bucks on some packs and they get excited maybe they can sell those for like a thousand dollars let's say and they're like oh what else is in this ecosystem they go to open c they check out like crypto parks they check out all this kind of stuff and then they get just further along the rabbit hole and eventually end up like you know farming like whatever d5 protocol like a couple months downline so um yeah it's that's the progression that i kind of see happening and in terms of the buyers it's kind of how i bifurcate them now it's like crypto uh you know wealthy are the high dollar amounts and then the new people are just kind of dipping their toes in now but getting involved quite quickly so andrew you've uh had your own mental models about how this nft space will

developing progress um and i want to get your gut take on the the last two to three months of nft progression and ask you if that if did that what is has what's happened in the last two to three months matched what you predicted would happen or or also what has really kind of changed the game or what was uh really something that's out of left field that you didn't see coming so so what did what would you say that you got right and you predicted and what was out of left field or out of the blue or something that you didn't predict okay so what i think i got correct was that the reasons behind people getting involved in this market were accurate um they're multifaceted because nfps themselves are quite a diverse market you have collectibles game assets

virtual land art uh other which is like all these other different categories um so you can be a gamer you can be a collector you can be an artist like whatever there's all these different appealing reasons to get involved and so that's been correct in the sense that um it's very multifaceted and uh yeah it just goes back to being appealing to a broader audience versus um crypto which is often more focused on you know financial related applications or like trading or you know purely kind of making money which like an artist of course wants to make money but i don't see them like necessarily diving in the device head first i think they're going to get there but it's going to take some time um okay so and then what i got completely wrong was the time frame on which this would happen i think like you

guys asked me in your podcast i think it said uh you know how long will it take to reach a 20 market i think i said 10 years yeah yeah yeah and like and like i i really did believe i know i was like okay but it's a little bit a little bit too long but probably right and now it's like you know the total lifetime trade volume i think yesterday was at 450 mil yeah 430 mil um so you know that's just that's just crazy right um so trends happen so these are like monetizable memes essentially every single nft is like it has some sort of virality or can have some sort of virality to it and because it's on the internet and memeable and has a financial aspect to it these things can grow

way crazier than i anticipated and which is both good and bad i think it's good in the sense that um it'll help the wider adoption of the space but it's also not great in the sense that i don't want people to look at nfts as purely financial assets because they're not i think people you know should be if they want to buy a piece of art they should truly love the art they want to buy a collectible that you truly love you know the soccer player that they're buying the collectible from or whatever right um i don't want them i don't want this to just be a pure financial game uh because if that's the case then that's it's not really fulfilling the mission of of the nft space andrew there may be more to dig into here but i just want to ask kind of your your gut take so uh david

in the intro used the term mania and then he corrected himself and it was like well you know i wonder if andrew would characterize what's going on as a mania that's that's what i'm curious about too would you characterize what's going on right now in the nft world as a as a mania yeah i think that it's it's highly speculative right now um but i think with every new technological paradigm we've seen this with crypto we've seen this with d5 we've seen this with dot com bubble speculative cycles are completely normal and and actually end up being kind of healthy for an emergent technologies because they bring in capital they bring in talent they bring in all this kind of added oomph to this space and make it really accelerate um a couple years ahead of where it probably would have been normally so i think that um we are

definitely in a mania but um that being said i think that's totally normal and okay and um and really uh yeah we've seen it happen before and it'll happen again in some other new thing whenever that that might happen um and i think i think it's okay i think overall um yeah so i will i will kind of step back slightly one thing i don't like is that low effort assets being produced by people that have learned about the space like yesterday um and and we see that a lot from famous people and i understand like if you're the biggest fan of like rob gronkowski then totally like you can go splurge on the stuff but like you need to be thinking longer term and i get it's if it's the first son of tea and you just love the guy then like

totally go at it but like i just don't right now you know what paris hilton has started following me on twitter right so it's like it's like you know sure she's awesome whatever but like i'm concerned about what is what is her what are her intentions in the space i feel like they're thinking more short-term cash not to call anyone out andrew but like lindsay lohan i don't know yeah putting the most effort into uh bought her nft for something like 30 ether and burned it and just like sent it right to the burner dress so um you know that kind of that kind of like i think it's it's crazy like the most absurd move ever but um i respect it a little bit uh but like that's that's what like we kind of feel about it like we don't want these movie

stars just coming in and making nfts and making all this money we want crypto natives people that have been in this space for a while that truly care and know about the space and and you know have the same ideals and values as us to make stuff and then be successful that that's what i want i know a lot of other people want that as well because these people's fans like rob gronkowski his fans aren't crypto people his fans are nfl consumers right and so to the typical nfl consumer when they see something new that they didn't know existed before they're like oh this is a new thing that i didn't know existed before let me get in on this not realizing that they're actually getting in on an experiment right not actually realizing that this is something not just new to them but new to the whole

entire world that we are all trying to figure out together and just because rob gronkowski is issuing an nft doesn't mean that it is a finished product right or even the best product that it could be people people aren't used to like this frontier that is crypto and so they are thinking perhaps that it's more legitimate than it actually is or they just don't really know what they're getting into yeah i think if you're a fan of him or if you think that if you're confident that you know you'll make money on asset then sure like it's your money go go do whatever you want right but um yeah i just really like i i want to see a follow-through from ideally if broadcasting was like hey guys like i'm going to now start my own nft series and this is good blah blah and like really put some you know

effort like you know not even money-wise just like thought-wise into what he was doing then that i'd be like great he's that's awesome i'm happy um but again i just just think about are you happy holding on to an asset this specific kind of t two to three years down the line and i do think obviously i'm very biased but nfts are gonna be massive so in theory rob gronkowski's first nft would have some sort of value but what about a second or third or his fourth i know it's and you know the difference andrew is like when um when when blah was on our podcast and he's kind of been in this from the early days and he was he was talking about issuing his own ffts and then he was listing out all of the various ways he was going to add value to the purchasers

of those nfts and he went through and he he knew many of these um the folks who bought his nft by name he's talking about like backstage access collaborations with him right it was very clear that he was looking to build a community and kind of grow from there and i don't get that sense from um some of the other you know creators of nfts who are who are entering um you know in a less intentional way uh and that that i think if you guys listen to the and listen to the blou conversation you'll you'll definitely see the difference there and in any mania you know people buy at the top like they buy at the wrong point in time and so lots of

lots of wealth can be made or at the late stages of mania lost and i wanted to ask about that andrew so we are in some kind of a mania the question is always like well you know what stage of the mania are we in and how long will it last do you have any takes on that yeah so i could be completely incorrect because if i could call the tops and bottoms of markets i would be like a billionaire but um so i think that nfts will be highly correlated with the broader crypto markets because a lot of these assets are denominated in ethio so um yeah i i really think it's dependent on bitcoin ethereum and what they do um and also what's one interesting fact about nfts is that they're you know pretty illiquid comparatively to regular crypto and so it's it's

it's easy to form bubbles it's hard to pop the bubbles it's easy because they're such a limited supply and these are unique goods so if someone you know someone famous or some really cool product launches with like a hundred nfts there's a thousand buyers like the prices can get really crazy quite quickly and then on the other hand if you want to quickly exit your position it's very difficult because these are not you know you can't just go on unit swap or some exchange and get market sell and so um that's one very interesting aspect and i kind of liken it to the financial crisis of 0.708 where you know real estate prices had like pretty much only gone up ever since then and took a massive macro event in order to reduce the home prices across the board because these assets are less liquid and in my opinion that's kind of

how i see nfts playing out in the short in this kind of cycle where until crypto kind of has some major correction i don't see the nft mania or hype cycle being diminished by that much i think that's going to take a large macro event in order to kind of dampen dampen the spirits and dampen the dampen the fun so i guess back to the question of how long uh will the crypto market cycle last right which is which is kind of the other speculate speculative point here yeah what do you guys think on that i i i have a guess but what do you guys think nine months wow i think that's fast i think that's fast 10 months to a year david i'm a little nine nine yeah nine to 18 months uh i'm shorter than both you guys what is your

reasoning this well four year cycles plus a little bit more because of lengthening cycles and that's like kind of just a napkin math that i have um i do think that quote unquote this time is different in the sense that like this is crypto's mainstreaming cycle and so i am inclined to extend how long this cycle goes you know bitcoin can keep on pumping as long as the fed keeps on printing right and so kind of it's like no it's actually not crypto cycles it's it's a modern monetary policy uh up to them to determine how long this cycle goes and i think that that could make it go for a lot longer than previous cycles my my framing is like um 2021 is is uh 2017 right and so we're in march of 2017

and it's going to play out roughly similar so nine months on us um maybe a bit more maybe a bit less yeah i could go with david's estimate um yeah what's your take so you think it would be shorter andrew yeah i think you guys both have very sound and logical reasons for your estimates mine is is pretty similar in the sense but i just think it's going to be shorter but i'm always very optimistic at the same time very pessimistic it's very weird it's always like competing forces but i think it's got to be six months roughly um just because the pace of the acceleration has been faster than what i thought but then but then going back to uh 2017 when we were in april of 2017 i thought that i was like oh my gosh we

are in the biggest bull market i've ever seen in my life because i was like i bought ethereum and now i was going great like you know he's like um so yeah and i don't know these things always go way harder and faster than i thought than i you know think and then also david you mentioned uh the fed and the correlation between like how can bitcoin or or ethereum have a large correction if the fed's printing at every single like hiccup the traditional market does yeah it's it's it's gonna be really interesting to play out like we've never had a more bullish setup for cryptocurrencies ever so it's well i also feel like there's this there's this element of of uh differences this market cycle too it's like defy already had a d5 summer right and it had that lasted three four months and now it's kind of

recovering this could be at like nfc's sort of d5 summer event and then that could cool down but it could could like the the crypto bull market writ large could continue even after these these sub sort of markets um which is you know interesting to observe i had one last question on on kind of mania um what can we learn from the previous because nfts did have sort of a mania type event like a micro mania if you will in 2017 and i'm curious what we can learn from the projects there so with cryptokitties which uh almost marked the top of the last mania and we had assets like um like crypto punks for instance right um and then we had all of these other assets

that probably no one no one even remembers in the nft side of things and it seems to be the case that some of these things died away while others persisted and in fact became more valuable this this cycle at least crypto punk certainly did i'm not sure if cryptokitties has recovered is there anything we can glean from the last market cycle and and kind of fit into this market cycle so if people are buying nfts for example and they're high quality nfts uh even if there is some sort of crash in the nft market is there some historical case for it for holding for the long run until the next time around when when these things uh pump in the next cycle yeah i think you can just look at the projects like that were around in 2017

early 2018 um you know let's let's go with uh decentraland cryptovoxels uh uh cryptokitties cryptopunx et cetera um these these are all high quality projects with motivated people behind them and well thought out kind of narratives and kind of uh token economics for case of crypto punks and stuff like that and you can see that they are now you know the top projects in the space now um cryptokitties is is obviously not the main focus of dapper anymore now they're focusing on their kind of flow and top shot and whatnot and they're killing it but um but you can still see cryptokitties have a ton of kind of collectible value still and so i think it just proves that if you are a team building in the ft space and you are thoughtful and you are thinking long term you can build kind of the next

crypt of kitties or the next crypto punks or whatever um and but but you have to do it in the right way you have to be you know playing long-term games with long-term people like that's like the famous quote and that is a thousand percent true in the nft space where like narrative and story uh play such a such a large role because these assets are subjective in value a lot of them are versus um something like d5 which you can actually kind of value on like a legitimate knowledge in it but more accurate basis than you can like a piece of art right um so i think it goes back to just being thoughtful about what you're creating and thinking in terms of years and not months there's a couple subjects that you brought up just there that i want to get into i i do want to get into the subject

of crypto punks and the the question around the crypto punks premium does it exist or does it not and i also want to get into the subject matter around flow which brings up to the question of what really is an nft so those are those are two really awesome subjects we're going to get to those right after we get back from a quick break to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange i've been a customer of gemiini since i first got into crypto in 2017 and it's been my main exchange of choice to make my crypto buys and sells gemini is available in all 50 states and in over 50 countries worldwide and on gemini there are markets for over 30 various different crypto assets including many of the hot defy tokens and it's one of

the few exchanges that has liquid dye markets gemini just launched their earn program where you can earn up to 7.4 interest on 26 various crypto assets if you're tired of paying fees in defy or you don't want to worry about defy exploits but you still want to earn interest on your crypto assets gemini iron is the product for you another product i'm stoked to get my hands on is the gemini crypto back credit card which gives you three percent cash back on all of your purchases but paid to you in your preferred crypto asset when i get my gemini credit card i'm going to make sure that i get my cash back in eth so whenever i buy something i get a little bit of eth bonus back to me at the same time you can open up a free account in under three minutes at gemiini.com

go bank list and if you trade more than 100 within the first 30 days after sign up you'll be gifted a free 15 bitcoin bonus check them out at gemiini.com go bank list ave is a borrowing and lending protocol on ethereum and just recently released ave version 2 which has a ton of cool new features that makes using ave even more powerful with ave you can leverage the full power of d5 money legos yield and composability all in one application on ave there are a ton of assets that you can deposit in order to gain yield and all of those same assets can also be borrowed from the protocol if you have deposited collateral here you can see me getting a 200 usdc loan

against my portfolio of a number of different defy tokens and eth i'll choose a variable interest rate because it's a lower rate than the stable interest rate option but i could choose the stable interest rate option if i wanted to lock that interest rate in permanently one of ave's v2 features is the ability to swap collateral without having to withdraw your assets trade them on unit swap and then deposit them back into ave ave does all of this for you all in one seamless transaction so you don't have to repay loans in order to change the collateral you have backing them check out the power of ave at ave.com that's aave.com and we're bra back with andrew steinwald andrew i want to start the conversation

here with with crypto punks because i think there can be a claim made about crypto punks and how it kind of stands out from the crowd uh and mainly on the nature of its genesis which kind of reminds me not not perfectly but of bitcoin's genesis right like no one knew crypto punks were going to become this valuable no one knew that they were that special there was this kind of credible neutrality about its genesis and there's been even content written about uh crypto punks uh talking about the crypto punk investment thesis which really is makes crypto punk stand out so do you agree that crypto punks are unique from other nfts and if you do what would the the features of crypto punks really um why do crypto punks really stand out

from the crowd yeah okay so i think crypto punks is a collectible and the value drivers around collectibles is all about the narrative the story around the assets and crypto points have a great story they were you know the first nfts on ethereum but recently you know ethereum just kind of came out and said no we were on maintenance in 2015 so there's kind of some debate on that like just happened in the past week but you know they're the first nfts on ethereum um they're made by you know two geniuses in brooklyn uh they had a fair launch where meaning that the developers kept a thought there's total ten thousand of them only so hard cap supply the developers had a fair they did a fair launch meaning that they kept a thousand for themselves 9000 were actually claimable for free just by anyone um so

i think all these different factors kind of appeal to uh especially like kind of bitcoiners and people with encrypted because they're like oh this is kind of like bitcoin asking and it's creation and launch um therefore you know i think it's pretty pretty get great uh great buy um i'm going to basically make a play on if an nft's on ethereum uh you know basically if you think entities on ethereum are going to be big and popular then i think crypto punks make a ton of sense that being said like that being first is very very important and collectibles and just like the story line and so if with a theory of popping up which is like this like hex it's like this like 3d or no it's like 2d world with like these hexes and uh you can actually like acquire these different tokens for like one ether each

and anyways um now that's not that that that for me is like kind of throws a lot of things in question because it's like okay well if they weren't really the first um if now ethereum is the first like what does that do to the storyline but i still think that um the the story is still in the narrative is still very strong with scripture punks therefore i do see them occurring uh more value in the future i i just think that there's only ten thousand of them there's a lot of people within crypto that want them they turn into status quo so do you know what listening to you guys describe this is like it it goes back to one of the earlier points you're making andrea how this is so much of this is just pure meme investing like the way you just

described the narrative here that is the narrative to invest in and when you're buying a crypto punk you're you're you're investing in like whether that that that meme has enough um sticking power uh virality um like enough substance to actually propagate and be believed by a greater number of people and like if it does then you want to buy and hold and if it if it doesn't then it's a it's a bad investment this is like pure meme investing in a way even that like buying ether or buying bitcoin is not because at least on the other side of this i suppose with bitcoin and ether you you get kind of liquidity whereas like the meme reinforces liquidity and liquidity actually has value because

that's a you know most saleable good thing it has a monetary premium in and of itself is is is that what we're doing here with these collectibles nfts is it basically like we're directly investing in memes here yeah well i would argue that bitcoin's like even more of a meme investment because it's literally like they're just saying like hey this thing has value you can't see it there's no visual aspect to it so it's even lesser than punk's and uh and it just like has value because we think it is value blah blah and so that's like the ultimate meme ethereum i'd argue a little bit against that in a sense that ethereum's highly functional and there's so many things you can do and build on top of it so um i kind of separate that a little bit but still you know there's a large amount of like

meme involved in that um and then uh i think nfts are i think i mentioned it before like monetizable memes um where yeah it's just like they're this almost new form of social media in the sense that um social media today is used for like marketing purposes in marketing yourself you you show off your car or show off your stick dinner you show off you're traveling to like this island resort or whatever and you're thinking stories instagram stories and whatever and you're basically just like marketing and you're kind of like showing off and you're implying like i'm so wealthy or i'm so cool whatever and with with nfts it's just taking that to like the level 10 because you're you're buying some good that is a quasi financial asset but also the same time it has some sort of status i think gabby d'zone called nft's store of

status assets where you can like buy this punk and it like retains a certain amount of status and it just so happens to be valuable because other people think it's valuable so it's like there's all these weird interesting interesting dynamics that just make um nfts yeah monetizable memes which in some sense is like this next evolution in social media um because it's just like cutting to the chase instead of implying i'm so cool and wealthy it's just like hey look you see on the blockchain i've spent this much and i have these these these nfts therefore i'm cool something like that so um yeah really really interesting dynamics that are very like human mixed with like like qualitative and quantitative which i think is very very appealing and interesting

i think what also has set the crypto punks apart from the rest of nat nfts is that they have this really high floor price and that starts to give it this value that other nfts don't have where the the one of the reasons why this nft mania or why people is selling his stuff for 69 million dollars is because these things things are super illiquid but when crypto punks have a such a high floor floor price they are actually turning that on its head because crypto punks are extremely liquid and they are these nfts that are that have this high floor place which means that there's always this guarant there's always there's always going to be a buyer where there isn't always going to be a buyer for like these more unique one-of-one nfts and i think that's kind of like how you

kind of know your nft has or nft set or collection or whatever crypto punks are has really hit escape velocity is that you know nfts can be extremely high highly valued if you find the right buyer but nfts that have hit escape velocity will always have a buyer no matter what and i think that's what's unique and sets crypto punks apart from the rest yeah i i 100 agree that secondary market liquidity is like one of the biggest indicating factors on a nft success 100 because and that's also why like myself personally and as a fund like i don't really get involved too deeply in the art space because as you mentioned like to find a one of one of one buyer for one specific piece of art is quite difficult but in something like crypto punks where no it's it's essentially

always liquid if you sell at a low enough price people are going to buy it for sure you might not make money on that but that's just kind of a separate separate issue but um yeah seeing the secondary market liquidity can tell you like a lot about a project it's it's crazy to see because we talk about sort of propagation how early this might be but um basically if we if we look at something like crypto punks right that appeals to a small relatively small you know geek crypto native type demographic but but the reality is this usage of memes as monetary and status symbols to the world like every single subculture is going to discover this right like there's how many subcultures

left have not even put a toe into nfts as a social status symbol right like almost all of them like we have there's 99 i would say of of the rest of these different communities and subcultures um that uh that will come to this and discover it in the way that kind of the geeks who are early have and you know maybe crypto punks appeals to some of them but probably not they'll have their own things that they will mimify and nftify as a result yeah yeah no a thousand percent like that's especially true with collectibles and art i think that those are non-functional ft's so the narrative the meme the story is the driving force factor there and then on the functional side which is more of like virtual land

or game assets the the the value and kind of the the usability of these things is is more uh looked at and basically the value is a function of the usability and the utility of the asset so like um like you know my sword does 10 damage you're sort of 100 damage your storage should be more valuable in theory a virtual land parcel it's like you actually want to be able to build something on that piece of piece of land and experience that virtual world or whatever so on on the functional side there's way more around the assets than just the meme it's way more like okay does this actually make quantitative sense and then on the non-functional side it's mostly all about qualitative and other kind of subjective factors so um yeah it really depends on what type of entities you're looking at but a

hundred percent you're correct like every community uh on the internet even even off the internet that comes on the internet will have their own kind of weird nft memes and all sorts of interesting stuff can you tell us about some cool projects then andrew right so i know you're really big into kind of this idea of um everything's moving into the metaverse this this whole new digital frontier essentially um tell us some projects that you're excited about people heard of crypto punks people heard of of beeple what's kind of up and coming and on your radar right now yeah so in terms of up and coming there's like just a rush of really really incredible developers creatives um you know kind of founders that are now making companies that are focusing on the ft sector which

is amazing and i'm really happy for that i think um that's kind of what you know this bubble is doing is making people look at the space more closely and decide hey you know what i'm gonna leave my job at like google or whatever and i'm gonna dive in this space full time which is that's great for us um so those are all up and coming things and they range from like new art platforms and new new games new this new like like super diverse and then i think the stuff that's great today is really um a lot of a lot of things that uh either have been around for quite some time and have existing like rabid communities around them you can always count on that um and then also even newer projects that have quickly grown communities that are very fanatical themselves and so you know the

the connecting kind of theme here is that the community is such a driving force for a lot of these projects because and it's the same like as in traditional crypto and d5 um you know hashmaps for example that launched what like a month or two ago and the hashmast community is like really really great they're really smart they're always chatting about the cool like codes and weird stuff that's going on in the background of your hash mask because each one is like has a message or a lot of them have messages and stuff like that um and so that's that's that's something to to really kind of think about is you want to make a project that has if it's collectible side so not much functionality you want to make something that's a deep experience and um not just surface level and then on the functional side you want

to create a great experience around the nft so um instead of making the nft very deep on the non-functional the functional it's like you want to make sure this nft is a sword but the experience around using that asset is very very exciting so in terms of specifics virtual land platforms sandbox crypto voxels decentra insomnium all great um in terms of collectibles uh cryptoponics autoglyphs um uh hash masks uh game assets we have like gaming we have axi so rare which i kind of count as kind of gaming and art i mean there's just like so many amazing art products the one that i'm really excited about recently is art blocks which is like generative art on ethereum i think that's like a super cool

concept and it's kind of opening the doors for a lot of generative artists who have never been able to monetize quite effectively and um and yeah anyways they're just like every day there's a cool new experiment or new product being launched and and that's so much different than the existing structures that it's it's just it's very very exciting and it shows me okay wow this is going to be even more diverse in these kind of four categories i [ __ ] at them and there's going to be you know ten categories in the future so yeah it bodes well for the space how do you find these things andrew oh man so dms a lot of people just dm me uh what they're working on cool things like that intros from friends uh discords uh people always say like what is the resource that you can go to to

start like learning or finding out about the stuff and there really isn't one i wish there was but it's very scattered right now and a lot of it is network driven so it's like hey this guy knows this guy who knows this guy and blah blah or or just random like i'll just get a dm and they're like hey i'm working on this thing i'm like okay cool um so like and how do you know it's good if you receive a random right so if there isn't one single source what that means is the source is your brain which means you need to be doing vetting how do you do how do you vet and how do you analyze and how do you determine what's real and what's noise yeah so it's really tough because it requires a lot of time but really if let's say someone dms me a project i'll

say hey send me over like a deck send me over some website some information if it looks interesting they'll say okay great let's jump on a call and uh then from there if you really want to kind of go forward the investment i just try to distill everything down to its fundamentals so the team the product the token economics the community the market the data the risks and you assess every project on those core fundamentals and if it passes muster you say okay great this is a wonderful product that fundamentally fits you know our values and what we think is great so then you move on to okay we're going to make an investment and then from there it's a whole another kind of process but um but yeah it's really for me just distillation because the space is super new super diverse very subjective so

what what are what actually matters here and that's what's important we had a conversation with um devin fitzer lately and this probably leads into the next section that i think david's um going to ask about with you know pertaining to flow but as we kind of get into that um he he kind of made this comment where he he still feels like we're in the 56k days of in terms of um nfts like because of some transactions per second limiters on networks like ethereum for instance so it feels like the next unlock is going to be in this multi-chain world where we have various layer twos and maybe other layer ones that are um you know allowing for lower value transactions to occur uh what do you

think of that take is that sort of how you see the world the reason we're seeing big 69 million dollar transactions with with people and 2.5 million jack dorsey tweets is because we're in the days of you know scarce block space essentially so high value transactions but we are moving to this next unlock additional infrastructure being built to make block space for nfts more plentiful and we'll get different use cases as a result of that do you think that's a good framing of what's happening right now on the infrastructure side yeah so it's a really kind of good point to bring up where for me a high value nft should be issued on ethereum because that is the best chain to issue energies on without a doubt but

something like a game you can't really uh have a great game highly functional game on on ethereum main chain main net right because it's kind of um yeah there's scalability scalability issues obviously so i think i'm all for a multi-chain world my number one thing is giving users true property rights that that's like my my go-to it's like as long as the users as long as the issuer of that nft cannot delete your stuff then i then i'm fine right you know and some people say flow's a little bit centralized and um you know that's you know there's some argument there but as long as flow cannot delete their stuff user stuff then i'm okay with it and i do think that what we're seeing luckily and i think this is great is a

lot of teams are building kind of bridges to ethereum and so they're able to you know do their own thing in a maybe a highly scalable way and then kind of port over to ethereum main net whenever need be and so that's really important about because i do think that i don't want there to be like the flow universe and the ethereum universe and the polkadot universe or whatever i want to be all kind of this metaverse right all connected and um i think by building these bridges and building these kind of solutions that interact with each other is super super important and um yeah in terms of like where we are oh my gosh like we are in the pre-napster uh days of this revolution like i don't even know what came before napster but like we still have itunes and itunes it's gonna

be crazy but that's still pretty old now and then we're gonna get the spotifys and even like you know a few years we're gonna have some other thing that's not spotify it's gonna be something else and so we are just unbelievably early in all this and uh i don't know exactly where it's to go but um yeah hopefully hopefully i'm involved and still here andrew you've unpacked it a little bit but i want to keep going because there's a question of what actually makes an nft an nft right and you said that like if you initiate an nft on flow but flow can't delete your ownership of that that makes you happy and that makes you satisfied uh i would i would want to keep going and say that if you are able to take that nft and achieve the maximum level of self-sovereign

ownership over that nft then that's what makes me satisfied right because there's a spectrum of self-sovereign ownership right one thing i'm worried about is that these more centralized blockchains like flow are going to receive adoption in the same way we were talking earlier where like gronk was issuing his nfts then people were like oh gronk has this new product i'll go buy it without understanding that they're really buying into an experiment what i'm worried about is that people are going to be buying these flow blockchain nfts and then they're going to be like cool i have an nft and then their friends are going to be buying this ethereum blockchain nft and then they're also going to be like cool i have my nft except in my version of the world in version of the future that ethereum nft will have superpowers because of the composability that you

find on ethereum and a flow nft is just kind of this item kind of kind of like in the way say my bitcoin is a pet rock well your nfc on flow is just kind of this nft on flow like what is it really uh and so what i'm worried about is all these people that are putting in many many many thousands of dollars into nfts on flow they're going to be looking at all of the fun times as being happening happening because of composability and defy where all the nfts on ethereum have this like software hooks into you know of a compound or you know smart generalized smart contracting stuff what's your what's your opinion on that and and um maybe maybe you can just take it from there yeah okay so i think

it's tough because you know flow started what like like very recently like what two a month or two ago yeah and all intensive room has this year right yeah if ethereum has a five year six year head start and um and is highly decentralized highly secure you know very stable uh flow uh so it's it's like it's almost not fair to really compare them at this stage um i do think the flow team is really great at uh at kind of getting users to build on their platform and getting um and making the best experience possible for developers which i think is really important but yeah to me it just comes down to if you can if you if there's no way that the issuer of an nft can delete or steal your stuff that's all that matters so

it's like um yeah if a chain is centralized and in theory you know that they could do that so that's that's a big issue but but again flow just started so hopefully in a year from now they're going to be much more decentralized and i think that that is their objective to over time become more decentralized um so i don't you know i this is probably not great to see on the bank list but i don't care like what chain wins i just want there to be true property rights where no one can seize your stuff like that to me is all what matters so it's like um for example like eos like that's not eos to me sure it's like an nft by name but it's not truly an nft um what you just said it fits under the bankless narrative right like if it's a bankless

tool it's a bankless tool correct yeah and and so um you know we'll see how these different blockchains evolve and maybe maybe flow is gonna head in a more centralized direction i have no idea in that case then their kind of statuses you know t's should not should be revoked you know by the community um but but but again that's not their objective their objective is to uh you know keep going down the the decentralized route and it's gonna take some time but um yeah to me it doesn't matter what chain wins just all about you know security and property rights and and really user rights how do you think about that right so like um there there can be stronger guarantees of property rights across different platforms so like what we just laid out is is a little bit like there's

centralized and there's decentralized but of course there's this also the space in between whereas bitcoin and ethereum school is to be uh censorship resistant against sovereign state level actors right it was all the way to this extreme whereas um you know something like flow might be not quite that right maybe the us government could take it down for instance uh but maybe it's decently resistant against one entity or one set of token holders or something from being able to delete your nfts as you put it do you think there's room for this entire spectrum of the nft space and is a spectrum the way you you even think of it where you've got really strong property rights guarantees and then

you've got other property rights guarantees that aren't quite as strong but but still kind of exist and then you know both of those are distinct from completely centralized uh system like something like a fortnight right now they have skins right but we wouldn't call those skins and items nfts because it's completely centralized how do you see this yeah it's pretty tough to make kind of like it's pretty binary in my opinion like you can't just say like we can't we have some property rights and like we we only can seize your stuff in certain instances right so um in a perfect world you know we're using full world warcraft fortnite all these big video games they're all completely on chain and everyone's secure and we're in the

metaverse and everything's completely decentralized and safe and whatnot it's like a perfect world i understand that it's probably not how things are gonna evolve i'm sure it'll be kind of bifurcated into certain sections where like okay the fortnite of ethereum has to exist on like this this kind of side chain that's kind of a little more centralized but also um you don't necessarily need i mean in the perfect world you would but um you don't necessarily need like the strongest product rights for all your fortnite skins or whatever but if you have like a piece of art that you know you bought for 69 million dollars i don't want there to be any sort of like fuzziness on like whether or not someone even a state actor could see this from me i want to make sure that no matter what i'm able to hold

this stuff securely so yeah i think that there is going to be a spectrum but i don't think in reality that's like how it works i think it's either like yes or no um but that's just that's that's kind of how i see it andrew i don't know if you've had i know you just came out of surgery so you probably haven't read my recent article but i want to get your uh get get your opinion on on this um nfts are a tool for disintermediating the emotional relationship between artists and fans what do you think that does for human culture over the long term and i know that's a really brainy question that has a lot of implications to it so i kind of want to get your get your take on that and when we cut off the middlemen between

fans and creators what does that do for humanity in the long term what do you where do you think this a long term trend going that's super interesting can you dive i want to hear more about your thesis on that can you dive deeper so we recently had our conversation with blau where he talked about how spotify is great for distribution but is terrible for data because he's not able to see who's listening to his music and as soon as he dropped his nfts he was able to get a list of 60 fans that collectively paid him 12 million dollars so he knows he found 60 people that are he's in direct contact with that and one of them but purchased the rights to um to artistic director for a song of his right so like spotify was never able to provide or facilitate that sort of

relationship between fan and creator right um now all of a sudden uh blau has these these uh our established connections directly to his fans that allowed him to have a tighter feedback loop between the the value that he produced produces as an artist and what his fans want and i and my my um thesis is that this is generalizable for all artists all creations and so with it and i guess it's something similar to the web 2 vs web 3 thesis as well where all of a sudden the disinterme disintermediation is the status quo and all of a sudden value creators and value consumers are direct right um is is this uh is this something that you've thought about with nfts and where do you think that this uh trend is going

i i haven't thought about that really but i think it's really interesting i you know i i i think that we're like in a creative a creator's renaissance where they suddenly have all the power to do whatever they would like which i think is unbelievably important and like the metaverse to me is about two things really it's about property rights and also optionality so like you like within the metaverse or within this virtual world that we're all living in you have the option so like if he wants to use spotify he should be able to use spotify if he wants to go direct to his fans he should be able to go direct his fans i think that there's a lot of trade-offs between like um ease for for those things because blau is an og he's been in nfc's for a long time encrypted for a long time so like

he he knows what to do and he he clearly has done it very well but then there's some new people who are like listen i don't know the first thing about mts i want to start getting involved but where do what do i do where do i start and so in that instance like a spotify of nft type platform which maybe is a little more centralized but kind of can help people along the way that makes a lot of sense to me so it's like i don't really i think i think this is where the spectrum comes in because it's like in that instance like it's the option to do whatever you please and that's to me is the most important thing what this is all about because when you have the right uh the secure ownership of stuff then you can choose hey i want to do it my way i

want to do it their way whatever um but yeah i think it's like the biggest force for good or one of the biggest forces for goods in this whole revolution is like bringing power to the people and uh that's across like you know being unbanked you know to suddenly being able to uh have your own kind of control over your financial destiny and um over your own goods with nfts and um you know i i really do think that uh yeah i think i think it's like the biggest force multiplier for good in the space for sure andrew i don't think i was clear on something until just now until you mentioned it so um your concept of the metaverse and your thesis behind that i was i was i definitely thought that that was about humanity's move from the analog world into this like digital world where

things are in virtual reality and there's and like virtual goods and we have like digital commerce everything is being digitized right zoomers are there millennials are getting there right older generations might not understand but we are all moving into the metaverse but you said two things that are super interesting to me and important property rights and optionality preserving those two things in the metaverse is vitally important right i guess what's the contrast what if we don't preserve what if humanity this is another maybe brainy question but what if humanity enters the metaverse but we forget we don't have property rights in the metaverse someone else owns all of our property big centralized digital companies what if we enter the the meta version we don't have optionality so

there is only one virtual reality you can enter into and and by the way it's owned 51 share by mark zuckerberg it's like is is that the the contrasting world here um tell me about that property rights and optionality in the metaverse i mean that's like the nightmare scenario that every movie and like book is about it's like that there's one or a couple centralized entities that control um you know control the platforms and kind of spaces that we use and exist in today i mean we can see it play out now with like facebook and kind of these other social platforms where um you know facebook is is i don't know if this is accurate but probably facebook is blamed for a lot of like you know revolutions and a lot of like misinformation and a lot of things that are not great happening because

it's in their in their you know personal their their they personally profit from that stuff happening so that's not that's not a great future um and if they're doing that now they don't really mind and like they're destabilizing countries and like governments then you have to imagine that like if we're in like a world where uh for example like okay you have to work this metaverse job in order to get your salary you know i mean that's great that that's crazy that would suck um but but i want to be in a world where um you know it has kind of american ideals maybe like older american ideals i don't know about today but um where like you can you are free to do and own whatever you want and people can't tell you what to do or and your money is your money your stuff's your stuff if you want to

go uh work in the physical world go do that if you want to go work in the metaverse go do that um yeah it's just all about options and being able to exit i think biology often talks about like the ability to exit is one of the most um kind of sought after things to pursue and i think he said that like we're at a level of regulatory capture in the united states where um you can't easily exit systems uh whether they be like you know your phone bill your internet bill or whatever like your optionality is limited to like two people and they're both kind of in cahoots with each other and a little bit evil and that's like not a great future um so i think just being able to have the option yeah options to do whatever you please and be and have

secure ownership of your stuff like that's how it matters um so yeah i think that makes sense as to why property rights are such an integral part of that thesis because if you don't have property rights you don't have freedom right yeah awesome and also like all the stuff you do all the time money and effort you spend in the digital world is like for nothing right you know so i think that that's also uh you know important andrew as we close here you were you were super predictive in our last uh episode like incredible uh timing on all of that um what are your predictions now so you made some big bold predictions uh previously this was since september what are you thinking now do you hold to

those predictions do you accelerate the timeline what's uh what are your latest predictions here as we are you know march of 2021. yeah i gotta say i i predict paris hilton is going to do an nft soon because she's following me and a lot of other people um i i think obviously my my time frame of to reach a trillion dollar market cap and in a 10-year time frame is gone it's going to be much shorter i don't know uh when that will be i almost like don't even want to make a prediction now because i have i have no idea um but you know as long as we're in this environment this macro environment of low rates fed printing every single time the market has a hiccup and cryptos in a bowl cycle like i i think it's i think it can get a lot crazier from here which

will only accelerate all these trends and metaverse trends that are happening anyway so trying to make a prediction it's gonna be a lot bigger uh faster that than than than what i previously predicted awesome well that's good to hear andrew well thank you so much for coming back on to at the banquet show we'll have you every single time that you want to come on because you are such a treasure trove of information and so thank you for making the time thank you so much guys it's been it's been awesome awesome andrew bankless nation uh i think um you'll i think andrew will be announcing some interesting things into the future so definitely follow him on twitter also uh stay tuned to hizima red newsletter

which is just a fantastic place for big thought pieces on nfts make sure you sign up for that we will get that in the show notes as well of course guys risks and disclaimers ethan's risky nft nfts are risky too at least from a value perspective we may be in a mania maybe not you could lose what you put in so be careful out there but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're joining us on the bankless journey thanks a lot and everyone on the youtube please like and subscribe so we can get andrew steinwell two at the front page of youtube thanks everyone for watching