SotN#23: Crescendoing! w/ Eric Conner (Community Culture, & Staking, War Effort, Propaganda)

Transcript

if you are looking for the front page of defy look no further than xerion.io xerion is your home base for managing your d5 portfolios xerion offers a central place for you to engage with all of the d5 protocols and assets that you engage with on a daily basis but all in one central spot here you can see i've loaded up a wallet and xerion is giving me the portfolio performance of all the assets in this wallet over time as well as a breakdown of all the assets that i own as well as all of my transaction history that i've ever done in an easy to view fashion xerion also lets you invest right into defy's best yielding financial opportunities right from their homepage xerion also makes it

super easy to access interest in defy using applications like compound and ave in the background and you can also exchange your assets using the xerion app using an exchange aggregator in the background to make sure that you always get the best rates you can even use the xerion mobile wallet to add your metamask or arjun or another ethereum address right into your mobile wallet so you can see your portfolio and engage in defy on the go here i just loaded up my argent wallet and now i'm going to load up my meta mask as well and xeron will do the same thing it will add all of my assets and wallets together all in one space and give me a portfolio summary of what's going on adding wallets is trivially easy if you already have a metamask you can get it

right into the xerion app and it can sync with your desktop app as well and the best part is you can also buy ether right into the app itself use the invest tab to look at all the things that you have invested in as well as other opportunities and coming soon to the xerion app is the ability to buy and sell your assets straight from your mobile device as well so download the app it works on ios and android go to xerion.io plug in your wallets and get a historical report of your portfolio over time as well as a comprehensive breakdown of all the assets that you own and how much yield they're generating for you we're also brought to you by monolith monolith is your cool new defy account your d5 savings account your d5 checking

account except the cool thing about the monolith defy account is that it gets software updates right you actually get to increase the usefulness of this over time so here are some of the features monolith is a smart contract wallet with a lot of the features that you would expect if you've come to know defy and what it is you can you can add money to it you can put that money to work in compound and accessing yield uh but you can all and you can also swap through uniswap what was cool with monolith is that they will send you a very sexy monolith visa card that connects to your smart monolith smart contract wallet on ethereum so it's a really awesome tool to live a bankless life with a a a savings account that gets software updates so this is this is

something that you're never going to find out in the real world but you can still do real world things with you know real money and like buy your groceries so that's just fantastic coming soon to monolith actually already here to monolith is now you can buy die and get it sent to your wallet directly right so it's also being an on-ramp so you don't have to go through your centralized exchange like coinbase or gemini or wherever you can just go straight from your bank account right into your monolith checking account smart contract wallet so check them out at monolith.xyz helplessnation welcome to another episode of state of the nation this is where we go through what's happening for the week we try to summarize it for you

and talk about the most important things we have a special guest today who is recently back from his twitter hiatus that's eric connor super excited to talk to him today david it is war effort week my friend so what does that mean why are we bringing eric connor on what are we going to talk about yeah we are bringing eric connor on because eric connor has been in the ethereum community since day one i kind of have given him this label which i don't know if he accepts or not so we're gonna ask him the ethereum's unofficial community manager he's the guy to me he's the guy that like kept the campfire lit during the darkest of nights during the and 2019 bulma a bear market he was the guy that kept us focused that it was uh kept on beating the same drum about like

what what what were we here to do like what is the theorem here to do and regardless of the price action uh the same message came out of eric connor's twitter the whole way through and so i think that's a really valuable ad to the ecosystem and i kind of want to get eric's take on how the community has progressed and developed and now that staking is here what that means for ethereum and its community uh because you me and you ryan we definitely have our takes as to what staking means when it comes to um the relationship between people and code and i want to get eric's take on that as well all right so what happens when you get three ether mega bulls together for a conversation we are about to have we're about to find out so if you're new to state of the nation this comes live to

you on youtube every tuesday at about 2 p.m eastern a little bit after sometimes we try to do 2pm and then it's also released on the podcast so you can catch it in audio form as well as david mentioned today we're talking about staking the war effort ethers community and culture um and also before we get into this dave we should talk about some things that are happening in the bankless nation at itself so we had michael sonnenshine on from uh grayscale which is not a 100 bankless product but it is bringing billions of dollars right now into crypto into both ether the asset and into bitcoin that was a pretty hot interview that dropped on monday what

were some of your takeaways yeah absolutely the the grayscale the whole institution of grayscale is what we call like the bridge to crypto right it is how value gets onboarded into the crypto world uh and so uh the grayscale is just acting as the the bridge onto the arc right we are building this system to get everyone onboarded and so that was pretty valuable and in getting grayscales like the take of what grayscale is for retail uh and how it is serving the needs of the industry was really valuable to me we are also having bellagi on i think we're recording tomorrow david i am locked and loaded for that conversation um lots of cool things including i think some announcements maybe from bellagi

the theme is going to be of course crypto d5 but also this idea that we've been playing with so long is digital nations and how crypto empowers that so do not miss that episode coming out next monday i can't tell you what's going to be in it because we don't know yet we haven't recorded it but i know it's going to be hot i know it's going to be a good one also david we've got our mega meme post coming out tomorrow we issued a call to action around staking to join the war effort on monday and wednesday is going to be a continuation of that we're dropping some propaganda we're dropping some memes david while you're talking about this post should i give a quick tease yeah you got it ready do it absolutely i'm reducing to you you set us up though

what is this conversation what is the post going to be about yeah so this is this is a concept i've been chewing on a lot and it's another topic that i want to get into it with it with eric here in a second but it's it's the relationship between the values of the blockchain and the community that it garners around it right and so each there are values baked into each and every blockchain protocol that we know of like for the there are values in a 21 million proof of work hard cap currency that attracts a certain cohort of people right there are also values in maximally lowering the barrier to entry for blockchain validation and that is what ethereum strives for and so i want to i i use a thought i i use this article to like peel back the layers on that and

try to understand how these values of ethereum impact the community that it generates around it right and it all comes back to the ability to stake your ether and that's the call to action that we're going with in this in the article there's a bunch of these graphics and gifs that we're going to just dump all at once to be spread and shared amongst the community kind of as like a community rallying cry like a community totem to to share and just you know have a shared narrative that we all believe in and you know pictures are worth a thousand words so we made a bunch of these graphics so we're going to dump them all out on the bankless newsletter tomorrow this is one that's coming out tomorrow as well i think there's gonna be like half a dozen of these i want you captain

america to buy eth bonds now it fits with that whole ether as an internet bond theme that we've been talking about for so long and the digital nation theme so on monday we ask you to stick your eth and i think tomorrow we're going to ask you to meme your steak right we want to spread these memes far and wide as well to get the community fired up for staking uh david i think that's that's what's going on right now should we uh should we get to the question i ask you always i'm ready for it i'm just gonna do that all right what is the state of the nation right now my friend the state of the nation is crescendoing we are crescendoing and you can see that like all states of the nations that we come

up with there's so many different ways to see it playing out you can see it in the crypto price actions in the crypto markets the price charts are just painting a big fat crescendo nick carter recently tweeted out back when bitcoin was like 14k or 15k um that this was the quietest bull market ever now bitcoin is at like 18k ish and we see it on cnbc and so we're starting to see the trend like maisie williams arya stark tweeted out about bitcoin the other day we're starting to see like the bubbling in she's cool again now yeah after that disaster of a season she's cool okay meanwhile we're watching the green bar of the east deposited into this deposit contract moving faster and faster towards the finish line there's a lot of things that just feel like crescendoing

and i can't wait for that that gong to hit at the very end when there's the big bang and so that's something that i'm looking forward to and that is what the state of the nation is crescendoing up and uh you mentioned nick carter david is nick carter your favorite bitcoiner be honest yeah he he's my favorite bitcoiner because if you ask him am i a bitcoiner he makes you define your terms first and rather than just puts on like the bitcoiner gap says yeah i'm a bitcoiner whatever you know how i know too it's because we've invited him on the show so many times and we're actually gonna have him on the show on uh tuesday next to the nation to talk about bitcoin and price and all the cool things going on from an adoption perspective there but today's show is not about bitcoin it is about ether it

is about rallying the troops so we have eric connor who i'm sure you guys know if you've been in the bankless community long enough if you've been in the ethereum community he is the co-host of the ether podcast he was formerly product at gnosis he is as david said i don't know if he'll accept this title but we think of as ethereum's unofficial community manager eric thank you for joining us back from your twitter hiatus just in time for the launch of the eve 2 network how's it going man hey hey hey what's up guys how's it going i think this is my this i know this is my first bankless appearance which seems strange given how

many episodes been put out between you know the two of all three of us but i'm very excited yeah absolutely i think we were afraid to put too many eath bulls on one show because like i mean who knows it is dangerous we were saving it for now we're saving it for such a moment as this all right so so you know first question eric what do you think of that uh david's title he's given you ethereum's unofficial community manager i feel like you like much like david and myself kind of like don't really have a traditional job like you don't work for a company but like you almost work for the protocol or like a set of protocols uh what do you what do you think of that that that title do you accept yeah i guess yeah i'll accept it i think it's a title

i couldn't give myself right it has to come from other people and i think there's multiple unofficial community managers right but yeah i definitely agree what's funny about that is it's also a niche i never thought or expected i would fall into right it just kind of like happened like my background's in finance then i found ethereum i was interested in building dexes that's how i got initially interested in ethereum and then like all of a sudden i saw this you know i've been in it kind of since the beginning and i saw this wave of euphoria through the first bull market and ethereum didn't have a bear market right until 2018. so we went like years without having a real bear market we had the dow hack and like the ddos

attacks and it went from like 20 to six or whatever but we never had like a prolonged bear market and you saw this like euphoria fade and the community like kind of go into shambles and people disappear um just like price went down 90 it felt like the community shrunk 90 um and then there was just this like relentless fud from other communities and whatnot about eath and ethereum um and then yeah just kind of like fell into this odd niche i never thought it would around like education and rallying the community and stuff so yeah i'll accept it but i will say i think there's there's multiple of us out there i think you guys are included in that as well uh and yeah no one's like paying us per se to do this but i think we all share a similar passion you know what i never

expected to be doing uh bankless and like what i'm doing today i think probably david feels kind of the same but um like your story your in anthony's story around ethub is i think similar to the story of bankless it's just like he started bankless because um i was pissed off to be honest like i was mad that all of this amazing stuff was going on in um ethereum this whole side of crypto and i saw that uh ethereum was not going away it was actually getting stronger and like no one was talking about it but i felt like the the roots of this movement uh and the value system of this movement i most

resonated with uh was alive and well in the ethereum community and i you know i just wanted to like start that down that path right and i think that's why you know david's doing this too but but is that why you kind of fell into it it's basically like no one was no one was doing it you just you just found a gap that you could fill and you stepped up and you made things happen yeah you know it's interesting right like if you thought of a theorem as like a company there would be pr teams there would be marketing teams that doesn't exist for a theorem right and ethereum started very deaf and tech heavy and honestly like the first few years were a little weird like i don't have a dead background it was not hostile but weird to be like a financial background that

didn't know how to code in the space yeah um so it took a while for people that weren't didn't have a deb background to kind of find their spot in the community right beyond just being an investor or you know using the network or whatever so normally if ethereum was a company they would have people kind of backing them up fighting off misinformation marketing and that just didn't exist and it felt like a pretty easy hole to fill right and it definitely comes out of these wars between different chains like at the time it was bitcoin and eth now i kind of see it as fighting off quote-unquote ethereum killers or what attempted murderers as i called them but um at the time it was a lot of misinformation between the bitcoin and ethereum community which has slowed down a little bit now um but yeah there was

just no one doing it and if you're passionate about something and you see it being attacked especially with a lot of misinformation right your natural instinct is to kind of want to defend that um and at the same time no one was really doing like education right and i consider like ethub and the documentation and all the podcasts we do and what you guys are doing bankless that's education but at the end of the day it's really like fighting misinformation right which could also be grouped into marketing and all that stuff and i'm glad this side of the community's been built out um and one of the coolest things i've seen over the last few years in the ethereum community is the shift from just a dev heavy focus to appreciating people with a bunch of different backgrounds investors educators you know

people with marketing expertise operations expertise product management project management whatever it is right i think that's helped us mature as you know a protocol on a space i feel like uh like eric that one thing is um that i mean ethereum needs to be primarily dev focused right in terms of like attention like technology and you were one of the first people that i saw in the space um talking about monetary policy and issuance policy and i found like that so refreshing because i couldn't get my head wrapped around just the pure uh tech focus in ethereum's culture like tech is important but at the end of the day what we're building is a social movement what we're building is not just a computer or a database but an economic

computer an economic database and there was like this complete lack of discussion around the economics of the thing like i remember you were one of the first people to actually like map out ether's issuance policy long term like taking into account things like eth2 so um you know that that is so important and the bitcoin community has had this now for like years in fact like their technology is stagnated but i would argue their their social movement and um like their writing uh talking about bitcoin is that the narrative layer yeah exactly david that's really been thriving over the

past five years while technology's been dormant so um i'm glad you stepped up to the plate man it's super useful now we've never had that going into a bull run right like ethereum has not had a strong narrative layer and now i feel like we do and i wonder where that's going to take us yeah absolutely it's interesting looking back right like early 2014 2015 ethereum community was hey it was basically we know and we want to do more than what bitcoin is willing to do and bitcoin had cemented into their narrative but they weren't gonna like really expand beyond that right so there was this group of people that said hey we want to do more and it took a while to decide hey what that is right we started like world computer which i

still hate that i know i like it but it's too broad right for me it was always d5 that attracted me and i'll i'll fight to the end of the day like when i first read the white paper for a theorem i saw and thought of d5 right and so we went into this like weird world computer narrative and decentralized facebook kind of thing yeah exactly which i just don't personally see happening maybe someday once we get scaling all that but um you know the community was just kind of messy and no one was talking about the monetary policy and i just got to thinking like okay everyone wants to work on this be funded to work on it we need to make sure there's monetary premiums so that the underlying asset goes up right or at least tries to go up

or has a good narrative for going up um because we all want to kind of work on this and you know developers want to get paid to work on it and we can't just have a willy-nilly monetary policy and really the only thing was like there's a blog post from joe lubin in like 2014 that there's just like a graph of ethan eat issuance for if it's five eats per block what does it look like and no one was talking about okay how much do miners really have to be paid let's look at the fee side of things as well which you know one five five nine is a part of now but uh yeah it was interesting that no one really thought about that for the first two or three years but i think it also proves just how early we are in this stuff

the monetary policy is a fascinating conversation and like ryan said it is because of what you've done at ethub that it got pushed into the forefront and i want to return there but first i kind of want to talk about what the ethereum community was kind of like at genesis right at 2015 2016 before we kind of really figured it out right and i i remember a tweet from you eric that came out a while ago um or or some messaging in some capacity that was along the lines of like the the 2018-2019 bear market was the time where the ethereum community that the users and the investors and the builders all kind of came together right these used to be separate groups and now they are kind of having won they're moving as one unit can you kind of talk about uh what

was what was it like before that transition what was it like after that transition and why is that why is it getting everyone on the same page important at all yeah so i think early on it was all these grand ideas with no idea how to really execute them right so i'll take like i was thinking about building ether x which was the first stab at like a decentralized exchange and we had this great idea but like the tech was nowhere close we didn't know how we were going to do the incentive side of things we're going to do a token where we're going to take fees and so you kind of saw these like huge ideas but you already saw this fracture in the community so first of all it was all on reddit right like there was no ethereum twitter at all so

it was all on i read it at the time it was uh east trader and um our ethereum so you already had this split of investors and the tech side right and the devs and i remember and it still is kind of like this but all price talk is banned on our ethereum right and i'm thinking like all these people on our ethereum are talking about building these great ideas they want users they want to make a lifestyle of this but they're not even considering price or investors right you need people to invest in this thing for it to be sustainable long term and in fact like that it's core to the economic security the security model of the entire system like the price of eth matters for security reasons to prevent double spends

to prevent attacks it's still almost to this day i think as a community we're getting better i still kind of see a neglect to this today but it was totally separate in the back kind of like why do we care about price let's put this to the side so i think what we so also it was very just dev focused where there wasn't really you know developers did build this protocol they've helped more than anybody kind of get us to where we are today but i think what the community realized after the icos and 17 are hey we also need like product people we need operations people marketing people to actually build products that people want like we can just think of these products and build them for ourselves but do

people actually want to use them right and so i think what we've learned through the bear is hey this is a community effort like we need expertise like it's not like abnormal that the rest of the world works in groups of expertise we should probably follow a similar suit yeah totally and and how would you characterize the community now like what problems have we really solved that we kind of figured out yeah no i mean i think ryan just kind of hit it on the head is i think we've come to realize the importance of the monetary policy and securing the network i think that's been the biggest breakthrough we've had we've gone from five ether block to two and the network's still secure i mean obviously when eath price went from one dollar to

1400 we should be thinking about changing issuance right we don't need to be paying miners you know 50 times more than they deserve to make and so i think we've realized that investors are important developers are important all these different groups are important um and i don't think i don't see that split anymore i think most debates we see every side is considered anymore and i think we even see that on the e2 launch there's been a lot of you know it's very tech heavy but we've also seen a lot of discussion about what the issue should look like what does the rewards curve look like how much eat do we need steak to get there you know how is the merge gonna look so we're we're considering all these different aspects and you know it it doesn't surprise me it's taking years

and it's going to take more because it's just a more complex system than a bitcoin right bitcoin kind of just has to focus on the monetary policy and the simplicity and when you start adding all these other variables it takes time especially in a decentralized community right it takes time to figure this stuff out and then how about the community's relationship with staking because taking has been in the ethos or the commitments of ethereum since day one but what the community has perceived staking to be has changed like once upon a time you used to need 15 100 ether to stake right that used to be the number and before it got lower down to 32 and there were different attitudes my god i almost forgot about that right really high number right do you remember

that yeah it's like oh yeah i guess i'm only ever using staking pools like damn uh so eric like how has like the the community changed or or understood staking to be whatever it is like has that changed over time you know i think the social contract has always been there it's funny to me still when i see people like concerned about minors pow at this point on ethereum because like it's not even it's never been part of the social contract we've always known that we're going to proof of stake i you know i get some heat for this i don't know why we even consider the feelings of minors at this point it's just not in my interest they're being kind of waited out and that's been part of the social contract so you know i think that's always been there um but yeah you know it shifted a

lot one of the more painful moments was i think like early 2018 when like the proof of stake roadmap as was was completely scrapped and kind of rebuilt into what we're getting now which is the beacon chain and the different phases we're seeing you know that was definitely a painful moment as an ease investor because we've been waiting you know four five six years now for this to happen at the end of the day it paid off right and i talk to you guys all the time offline about this but this is a long game and it always fascinates me how short-term people think even though they know it's a long game this is a multi-decade game right and i i feel like i have hands of diamonds at this point holding onto my bags because i feel like some people flip flop back and forth every week so you

know we're getting there i think we're weeks away from genesis block launch and huge props to everybody that's been building that but yeah seeing the shifts is interesting and you know you mentioned the 1500 to 32 each change like it's amazing what changes with price right like price goes from 1 to 1400 you start rethinking your issuance policy you start rethinking how much you need to stake you know and it changes rewards too like staking rewards are way different at a youth price of 100 versus 10k right so all these things need to be considered and eat all i'll change even bitcoin in a way i know they're not going to but price determines everything as far as security the chain how much you need to stake and all of that

whatever a moment in ethereum's history where you were like [ __ ] what if we never get to east 2. um i don't know if i ever thought we might not get to eat too there were definitely some i would say the hardest as like a long-term investor at this point it was like after the dao just in general sentiment about eve because you had like you had just gone through this huge rally from three bucks to 24. everyone was hyped but like on the other side you know bitcoiners and people and other coins were saying hey smart contracts will never be secure this stuff's impossible you guys are crazy next day the dow gets hacked and you're kind of like

okay you know you have that doubt in the back your mind like this was our first experiment it got hacked so i don't think i've ever had a moment where i didn't think e2 was going to happen but there's been a couple days especially like after the dow where you're you're questioning your sanity on the overall vision right but i think defy has totally stomped out any of those you know we can't trust any smart contract fears at this point yeah i uh dave and i commented recently that just like the success of uniswap alone okay so like 24 months from zero to over four billion in weekly volume right and you're telling me smart contracts don't work and d5 is not good here here's a system made by one guy

with a less than 100 thousand dollar grant his first development project and within two years he's doing more volume than coinbase right like sorry guys like d5 works smart contracts work and like we have data we had a belief back in 2017 about d5 but now we have actual data and use cases and like we see the success and i'm almost surprised eric that um this doesn't have mainstream attention like so it's funny to me because um i see even at the start of the cycle and we are in a bull market by the way i love the seasons of crypto right that's maybe why like i love southern california perfect weather all year round right but i live on the east coast and it's nice to have the seasons

and we get these seasons in crypto where we get the bull season we get the bear season and i enjoy the bear season to be honest because there's builders there's narratives getting like it's friends the tourists are all gone there's friends you forged like the real community in the bear market but now we're shifting to summertime again right it feels good i like that transition too i'm excited for for for the bull market um but like uh what what's it going to take because i feel like at the start of this bull market bitcoin is going to have the narrative for a little bit right um but like what's happening with defy is so incredible right now you the uniswap story alone and no one's really telling it what is this going to take to go to get

into the mainstream narrative where we start seeing this thing on cnbc and is that going to happen in this bull cycle yeah it's amazing how fast people just like shift right like a year ago it was hey ethereum has no users now it's like okay well we're doing billions in volume a day on d5 there's billions locked d5 and now everyone just like shifts the goal post constantly right and i think you know how i see this playing out is bitcoin probably going for all-time high and breaking it but you know the bitcoin narrative to me is boring you look at twitter right now and it's literally just hey number went up number went up more than two years ago hey look how many days has number been this high and it's like okay hey that's great are you starting i already start talking about bitcoin it's

not like exactly it's a big development yeah exactly um so i think you know that attracts mainstream media potential the big difference this time for eth is going to be that we have something tangible to use it was a lot of promises last time you know crypto kitties was kind of the thing people caught on to i think people investing now after you know say bitcoin breaks all-time high and kind of gets this mainstream media attention retail investors start looking for alternatives now they hop into ethereum they say oh wow okay they're they've built stuff you know i would argue the ux of d5 is better than traditional finance now um so hopefully gas fees aren't too crazy as people are kind of

running into this stuff and they're going to be kind of blown away i think you know of course it's still going to be a small subset like i said i still think this is a multi-decade play not like a multi-month play but people are going to realize the power of an alternative financial system and start to play with it and tinker with it and you're going to capture some people and i think a uni swap an amm is very unique to d5 i think it's one of the products that traditional finance is going to be a bit blown away by um hey you can just have this like pool liquidity and all this stuff and that's a unique product offering when it comes to you know d5 versus traditional finance dude just like real quick like yeah your point about ux right after this i actually

have to go to my local bank and i have to appear in person to like send a wire transfer right and i have to present my card and i have to fill out like actual physical paperwork and be there and say hi my name is ryan and i just want to transfer the money that supposedly i i own to somewhere else but i have to ask your permission pretty please do it and by the way you're going to charge me like 30 bucks for doing that it sucks and also you're going to be wearing a bankless shirt while you do it too yes of course i i got an email from my i've gone all d5 basically and i got it so my savings account is pretty much moved on to d5 just because of the yields over there and i got an email from my bank two

weeks ago and said hey your balance is too low now in your bank account we're gonna start charging you please come back eric we'll charge you money until you come back i think one of the things that makes me so incredibly bullish and and uniswap is involved in this conversation and makers involved in this conversation is back in um 2017 2018 we had nothing sticky on ethereum like icos were fleeting right like you come in you put your token you put your money into the ico you get your token you hope the token pumps if it doesn't like you're out um but then we had maker come in in december 2017 and maker was a place for value and capital capital to be sticky right like you could put your capital in

maker and leave it there you could leave it there and it would do stuff and same thing with uniswap and and one thing that makes me particularly bullish about this cycle is how many more sticky things we have this this cycle than we did last time like you we have reasons and incentives for you to come and also stay and we've never had that before so i'm really excited to see what happens in this bowl cycle when people find that there's actually you know a land out here that people have settled on and there's actually like a sustainable way to live a life out here yeah no absolutely i mean the you know the amount of liquidity out there now and kind of the composability between all these apps i i think

to me what's going to capture mainstream the most is the ease of moving these funds around right okay you say you open a high yield savings account the next week the bank cuts it from one percent to 0.75 you want to transfer that out it probably requires an in-person thing it requires multiple days that that doesn't exist right i hop my yield farms around in 15 seconds and i there's no monopoly no one has like a say on what i can do as far as hopping my or moving my money around and i think that's going to resonate with people and just the ease of how easily you can trade in and out of things and i think that's going to be what captures people the most just that you know it seems like a 10x improvement to the traditional finance system

absolutely okay so eric now that staking is quote unquote here like knock on wood it's like seven days away um and like we've made it right like with the staking we can basically see staking it's like right there um how does that make you feel as somebody who's been here around since day one where we committed to staking and we kind of thought that was going to be here a lot sooner but now it is actually here like how does that make you feel um now that it's actually arrived yeah it's great i mean i think what i'm most impressed by and i think people underestimate this is how hard it is to coordinate this effort it's not necessarily like the tech that was built in like what what's out there smart contract wise and how the beacon chain works it's coordinating people across the globe to build this and getting

you know agreement from the users of the network of hey this is what we should build i think we're even seeing this in like smaller defect projects how hard it how hard governance is how hard decentralized governance is and we're getting buy-in from the community of hey this is the path and i think e2 struck this perfect line that i liked early on in the theorem eth1 of a bit centralized you've got a couple like central players that really know what they're doing but also like there's a couple other teams out there and you're getting buy-in from the community it's just like pseudo-decentralized governance that i think protocols need early on i don't think i'm scared of just going 100 hands off decentralized start so i i'm impressed that the e2 team

teams that are building this we're able to pull it off first and foremost because it's it's not easy right and you know a lot of people have made the analogy of what if like apple was building the iphone in public right on like github and they were asking for input across the nation and stuff like it would be a disaster it would take years and so stuff like this is just going to take time um you know it's cool i'm still cautiously optimistic myself about staking i put out a tweet a few couple days ago hey just for now treat this as another yield farm in my opinion don't like ape in 100 of your eat because there's a there's a lot of opportunity costs there your liquidity is locked up it's new code who knows how long it's going to take until you know phase one comes in

you can move stuff around but you know i'm excited it's a the day that genesis vlog goes alive i mean it's a it's one of the biggest steps for a theorem since the original eth1 genesis block yeah so even though there's three ethmaxis on this live stream there's definitely some diversity not nath maxie david okay that's what you that's what you say i thought you were a big bitcoin max yeah apparently allegedly um but there is some diversity of opinion i guess there is a diversity opinion here but uh eric's what you just said is that you know treat staking as another yield farm right but me and ryan are hammering this drum as like it's your patriotic duty to stake like this is a political statement and so i kind of want to get into that topic but before we get there we have to take a quick break to talk

about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible if you want to live a bankless life you need to get a hardware wallet there is no alternative for storing your crypto in a self-sovereign fashion that's why i have four ledgers that i use to manage my different crypto assets using the ledger live account as well ledger live is like your home base for managing your ethereum defy and crypto accounts it does a really good job of aggregating all of your different ethereum wallets if you are the type of person that uses more than one but you can also add other cryptocurrencies like bitcoin or cosmos or whatever your preferred blockchain is and then it will display an aggregate portfolio of all your accounts at the

main page one thing that ledger is doing a really good job of is enabling all the money verbs that me and ryan talk about with the bankless skill cube enabled in the ledger live app so right now in the ledger live app you can buy sell lend swap and stake your crypto assets which is doing a really good job of fulfilling all of the money verbs in the bankless skill cube something that's new to ledger live is ledger swap where you can swap assets one for another directly inside the ledger live application ensuring trustlessness in your financial activity on ethereum and on bitcoin if you want to learn more about what you can do with a ledger go to the blog post the power of ledger live on the ledger website where they share some of the

more advanced things that you can do with your ledger that you might not have known about there's a link in the show notes that will take you to the ledger shop where you can get your preferred ledger hardware wallet i personally like the ledger nano x but i also have both they're both great options when you own a ledger you own your own assets in the way that they have been designed to be held by the user and the user alone so go get your ledger today to make sure that you are as self sovereign as possible the bankless state the nations are brought to you by wiring wiring is defy's first self-building community run project which i just get really really excited about wiring is a system that seeks out yield in d5 and it does that in a number of

different ways a very aggressive way is with the vaults where you can deposit your preferred asset of choice and different defy experts will come in and generate a strategy for what to do with your deposited token right and so it'll go find ways to get yield in that deposited token in d5 for those who want to just earn yield on their stable coins the earn system is for you where you can deposit your preferred stablecoin and wiring will go and figure out which money market on defy and defy is producing the best interest rate whether it's dydx it's compound or ave it looks around d5 to see where the yield is coming from and it directs stable coins automatically so you don't have to check them out at

yearn.finance to get started and also check out the stats page to see what other people are doing as well all right guys we are back with eric connor and we left the conversation off with the the difference of opinion as to whether it is your patriotic duty to steak or whether you should just treat uh staking as a another yield farm and so uh the bankless community probably already understands and what what ryan and my opinions are with staking um but but eric is offering an alternative view where you kind of just treat it as like a profit maximalist you just try to treat it as a yield farm eric you want to elaborate on that on that take yeah i so i don't think altruism really exists when it comes to this stuff or i don't think it should right and i i think i would be a bit of a hypocrite

i've been calling out bitcoin for their monetary policy not being sustainable once the caps hit and the argument i hear back a lot is not a lot but like one of the arguments back is miners will be a bit altruistic and i i don't agree with that i i think incentives run this world this crypto world that we're in and i think if we're not seeing enough stakes it's because we got the incentives wrong and i i will say i don't think the incentive curve has been revisited since the defy craze and the reality is people are earning maybe not on straight e-staking but you can put your ethan compound draw stable coins with a very safe liquidation price and net 10 to 15 on your on your capital at that point so i don't think the

incentive curve was really thought about post defy yield farming era and i think that's something as a community we need to think about you know what is the ideal target for steaky i'm not really sure it seems like the devs and researchers think it's around like 10 million long term but you know it's it's kind of hard to say um i actually recently submitted an issue on the e2 uh github today the spec github that i think we should put a max date in and just kind of bypass this minimum threshold because it seems a bit arbitrary to me but you know i i'm personally thinking about this as just another yield farm i want to experiment a little you know it's complicated like running this stuff isn't easy you need to generate your own keys you need to know

what you're doing you need to have uptime so i want to give it a little bit of time and see i'll run a validator too early just because i want to be a part of the genesis block but that's kind of where my head's at so eric in summary you don't want to miss genesis block you're going to be there for sure but you don't think that eth2 staking in general should res should um rely on any form of altruism or any sort of like patriotic duty to the theory of nation david maybe i'll play the role of moderator a little bit here so like david do you agree with with eric stake there or like what what's uh what's maybe a counter take to that yeah i 100 agree that you have to start with incentives like this

whole this is a cryptoeconomic system and so if you don't get the economics right then you don't have the system and so the first and foremost you don't there's no such thing as a meme secured blockchain right you you are secured by just facts by science to whatever degree that you can be secured by that and that means incentives right so you know show me the incentives and i'll show you the outcome if you have a if we have incentives that secure blockchain then we have a secure blockchain however once the incentives are placed that is actually the substrate in which a political statement can emerge out of right that is where the meme comes from like a lot of people will comment on like how bitcoin is just a meme coin but bitcoin is a meme coin because they have everything else right like the meme is

allowed to emerge out of that out of that success and if it starts to if that success starts to falter if the incentives start to become misaligned then the meme pops but the idea the purpose is to grow like the social layer around staking and so once we do have the staking correct we get to rally the flag and say like yo we got staking nailed like we got the incentives down now we get to uh generate like a social hype layer the narrative layer around staking saying like it is your duty to stake because the eth debs and eth researchers figured out the right balance of incentives we get to carry that banner it's like they figured it out we have this perfectly secure blockchain everyone should stake because it is

because we figured it out and now that now that we've figured it out you know you can access that upside right like part of the ethos of ethereum is to spread out decentralization to everyone and and allow blockchain validation by ever would you say would you say david that the part of the ethos in the bitcoiner community is like it is your duty as a bitcoiner to hold yes you hold that's why the 300 meme is so strong with bitcoiners right they're always about like you know hold the line don't sell stack the sats right and i feel like an equivalent uh social layer for ethereum could be about staking right like you should state but you did you did say something that might get back to eric's point about like once once it's right right once they get it

right yes and maybe that's a distinction eric that that you're trying to make or how would you respond to what david's saying there yeah so i'll go back a little bit to like the social contract comment i made of we've always expected this right but one of the aspects of the social social contract i don't think many of us thought about or expected was this unknown lockup period right so this throws a huge wrench into the incentives so i agree with you david totally once you know the lock-up's gone and we're kind of like eat one's merged in e2 and staking's a little more vetted at that point i plan to stake all my eth um this this lock up this unknown lockup is a wrench in the system right and i personally think that the incentives should probably be a little bit higher early on to

incentivize people to take this potential opportunity cost loss i mean you're talking put it this way right what if this is not financial advice eth pumps from 480 to 5k while your ether is locked up right now everyone knows when the z is going to unlock someday what if the market just goes through a full cycle and dumps back before you can unlock your ethon staking you lost out on a ton of money right yeah maybe you got your 15 to 20 yield but the opportunity cost is just amazingly high and i think that's why we've only seen 100k state isn't there that you know i'm not going to say that the financial incentives behind eth2 were more neglected than they were on the initial eth1 because i don't think

they were they were thought about but i still don't think they were thought about enough and i think as a community we should start having this conversation and i think they should change every phase so before david applies to that another i guess nuance i want to get your take on right so you gave the example eric of the opportunity cost of eth going to save 500 uh dollars or something per each but i've also 5000 excuse me yeah we'll be at 500 at the end of this uh episode right happening right now all right so 5 000. so um but but there are other opportunity costs i think i've heard you uh argue about which is like on eth one right now this wasn't the case in 2017 but on eth1 you could do a hell of a lot with your eth

right like there are yield farms there are defy opportunities there are ways to generate um now you have to take like risk into account here but i guess my question is do you think that defy opportunities on ethereum are almost a little competitive with eath staking at least at this point yeah i would say absolutely yes and this is not something that was even considered i would say a year and a half two years ago so it needs to be taken into consideration i mean i'm i'm currently yield farming i have almost all of my eat deployed in yield farms earning on average about 15 to 18 percent even any given week on my capital why would i take that eth and put it

into e2 lock it up for a year and the same amount right so i i think we need to just be like real about these conversations and understand what the competitive landscape looks like and yeah sure definite yields have come down from 100 to 15 but i see them staying in the 10 to 15 20 range for a while um and the real question is what are what is the sweet spot on e2 staking i haven't really seen this answer you know is it 3 million is it 5 million is it 10 million you know what is that sweet spot and then kind of like tune it around that point and i think that that was attempted um but i don't think it was attempted considering d5 so you know are you going to lock up your

eth for fifteen percent of d5 you're gonna lock it up for 15 and e2 people are going to answer that different ways right if you have more technical expertise you're probably going to take the staking side more financial background you're going to take the defy side um but this wasn't even in consideration you know when we were first talking about staking so david what's your response to that that uh eric is describing a very like um like methodical investor type take on opportunity cost here he almost sounds a little bit like more like a raul paul right when you had that conversation with raul who's like yeah but like where's what's my roi what's my yield for taking these sorts of risks what's your response yeah and again we always have to take that perspective first right because if you don't have the incentives then you don't have anything

right everything is layered upon correct incentives uh and so i think like if if you are voicing these concerns then like the the rest of the ethereum ecosystem should be paying attention that these concerns are being voiced i do want to um take a little bit of a side quest and talk about like uh defy competing for eth for staking competing for eth because like the if you focus in and on this very narrow viewpoint you're like oh that's bad because like d5 is dealing security from ethereum and ethereum is stealing ether collateral from from d5 this has actually been in the ether triple point in asset thesis since day one everything competes for eth like this it's a massive tug of war in all in all in every direction right and so i think what what eric is is a fan of that

i think would really offend bitcoiners would be tinkering with incentives like tinkering with uh the right numbers the right metrics and that's kind of been the division between ethereum and and bitcoin that that's kind of where we draw the lines like ethereum is okay with tinkering to get the red the most optimal outcome and bitcoin is like no tinkering ever and what it is is what it is um and so there's obviously values in to both sides and i think what eric said is that once we get to phase 1.5 where ether staking on the phase zero beacon chain can merge with the rest of ethereum that's when we actually start to get hit that drum a little bit harder with which which is like you know staking is for you like you can stake at home like it's you protect ethereum by

doing that at home and and i kind of see this one and a half two year period where we are it's an experiment uh we are learning how to stake like people are learning how to run a node people are learning how to stake a home clients are learning how to make their clients easier to use staking becomes more you know and more accessible because right now staking is not easy like and almost intentionally so because it acts as like a filter to make sure that only the technically competent can get to that point but that filter and that barrier comes down and i think that's what i'm going to do over this next like year and year and a half is while it gets easier and easier to stake and the barriers become lower and lower and lower i'm going to try and build up the

memes to get better and better and better so more people can get convinced that staking is is for them at the point where it becomes right yeah and here's something interesting too right let's go on the total other side we're at phase one and a half you know maybe phase two it's one click staking on coinbase on your local computer whatever we also don't want to overpay right so again let's what is that number we need to find what are we okay with from a security perspective of e-state the curve should get us steeply to that and then drop off because if there's no value to 50 million each staking why are we incentivizing it right there should be zero incentivization up there and we should push that back down to a lower number so you know i don't want to also

it might seem hard to get there now because the barriers are high the opportunity cost is high but once it becomes easier we don't want to go on the other end of the spectrum where we're overpaying for security and we're just repeating you know the block reward drop from five to three and three to two and we're back at square one so i think getting it right on both ends is very important now bitcoiners will say that you actually don't know how much security is the adequate amount of security and therefore you should try and strive for as much security as possible at all times how would you respond to that i mean i agree i actually agree on proof of work it's very hard to do like you know when i wrote the eip1234 to reduce the rewards from three to two it was

very hard like to come up with an analysis of what is proper security i i compared it to bitcoin in my like eip and my analysis um i think that changes on proof of stake though like it's easier to know like how many validators you need you know i'm not going to get i can't get into the details not technical enough but um for a malicious attack to take over and you can you can better understand the economic impacts of an attack and slashing people and stuff like that so it feels to me like it would be easier to come up with this number and again i've seen floated around like 10 mil or so um but i agree with you on proof of work but i do think it starts to change once you get to proof of stake i think it's a little

easier to quantify it's funny it's funny to me that you would say that that's the bitcoiner position too a little bit david because um like that may be what they they talk about and i hear that but like if you look at their issuance policy and their security budget like it doesn't match right if you just said that bitcoiners are trying to optimize for security right and they're cutting security in half every four years in the thing that bitcoin is is strongest in which is not the market for its own block space ethereum even surpasses bitcoin there but in the market for its asset and they're choosing to cut that in half um that to me doesn't jibe but that's why we're here in ethereum

right maybe we'll we'll talk to dick carter a little bit about that i think we have before next week all right well so that that to me makes sense so i think you guys are both playing uh as both ethereum patriots playing at kind of uh different sides of of the risk spectrum here and uh eric even though you're not going to kind of go all in day one which is like pre investing and by the way guys like um we've said it before but there are a lot of risks to staking eth at this stage this is the frontier it's not for everyone but there are some whales out there right who have tons of eath and they could be doing something right like they don't have to put it all in but they could be doing something try to fire up a node try to go down this

path and i think you guys are agreeing there but over time eric i bet you you you will be just as patriotic as david is over here on the on the east staking memes as uh kind of phase one draws to it draws to a close when we get into like these future phases um let's let's talk about the eath bowl case right because let's see what happens when you get three bulls in here if ethereum's bull case played out to say the nth degree if it was maximally successful let's uh talk about that scenario what what what would that look like eric to you like a maximally successful ethereum and ether over the next say

full cycle to the next three to five years yeah i mean for me it's that defy starts to truly threaten the traditional financial market right so you basically how i've always envisioned it is i don't really see defy as you know directly usurping the traditional finance system i see them running in parallel and then people seeing the benefits of it over the traditional financial system so to me the mega bull case for eth you know next five years or whatever is this realization of hey maybe i don't need my bank maybe defy is fine i can manage you know it's not hard to use a ledger use meta mask like it's easier than logging into chase or whatever bank you use and a large amount of money starting to

come over and that starts waking up the traditional finance market right and then they start saying okay well what's going on here and they start looking into it and it's kind of this like positive feedback loop at that point okay what's funny is i think that's kind of like your personal story too right eric right like you're just i think projecting your personal story and saying hey i'm going down this path i've been down this path and i think there's going to be a lot more like me um we talk about in bank list like two points of flipping right there's there's one sort of flipping where suddenly you look at your net worth and you're like oh my god i have more crypto net worth then i have like fiat existing traditional finance system network right that's flipping one and then flipping two comes later when

you're like oh my god i don't even use my bank account anymore like i i don't need it i i just have a few bills that i pay from it but my banking services have largely shifted over to to crypto have you passed both of those hurdles i have yeah it actually took me but it was very first to hurdle one hurdle two took me a while so i just the last couple years right as d5 has developed the last year yeah hurdle two was actually just the last six six nine months twelve months something like that so recent within the last year and the difference was the yields right like why do i have my cash sitting in a savings account earning point four percent or whatever when i

can put it in d5 and now i will caveat this with there are still risk obviously like we still see d5 protocols getting hacked i personally diversify across like eight different d5 protocols so yeah if one goes down hacked you know it's not the end of the world there's also nexus mutual insurance you can buy and cover and all this stuff but yeah i've i've taken the plunge on both and i just yeah i mean i use my traditional bank account just to pay bills i i keep all my stable coins now in different vaults across d5 and you know the interests earned maybe i'll put back in traditional banking to pay some bills but other than that it's to me i feel comfortable like why why keep it in tradition eric you've been around crypto for a long time like before ethereum like wasn't this the

whole freaking vision for the whole thing from the very start do you remember like back in 2013 we'd see like olaf carlson wii and he was like i'm gonna live on bitcoin for a year right like he stopped doing that because it sucked so bad because of volatility but now you are actually living banklessly without a bank on crypto and like no one's talking about it that's crazy to me like mainstream hasn't caught on to this yet but this is the cryptic hasn't this been the crypto dream from from inception oh absolutely i mean this is what initially attracted me to ethereum so like i was day trading bitcoin in 2013 mount gox happened everyone lost their money i was in irc chats where a

bunch of people lost their money and we said okay wait why are we trading centralized assets on decentralized exchanges and that led me into the wormhole so yeah that's what i've always been here for it amazes me the reliance on centralized servers services that come from the bitcoin you can't you cannot live in a bank-less community on bitcoin you just can't so you know ethereum is offering that and it's powerful and yeah yields aren't always going to stay up where they are now but for the medium future i think we're gonna see much higher competitive yields because a lot of it's driven by speculation right and that at the end of the day is one of crypto's strongest use cases right now as speculation yeah especially as the the greater macro world falls into zero and

negative interest rates like just the juxtaposition there is insane eric you started this conversation talking about how when you said when you read the ethereum white paper you saw defy and so i want to i want and part of this take is that this is a little bit of semantics it's like what is d5 what is ethereum but to me the entire point of ethereum and crypto at large is to produce d5 right like ethereum is d phi and if we get any value out of this whole entire whatever this whole entire crypto thing is it's defy and the reason why bitcoin itself is valuable is because it is an instantiation of d5 right it's all d5s d5 d5 d5 whatever whatever that is that's the whole point do you agree with that

yeah no i totally do i even think that you know we're seeing like an nft craze on ethereum i kind of say that's an extension of d5 i mean the composability of d5 and using eth and using die in the enft markets is defy um but yeah that's how i've always seen it i i personally don't really see long-term other use cases i know a lot of people disagree with me on that there's a lot of people that still vision i'm just not there i think when i heard about the ability to program your money it just clicked and i i don't think so ryan you've mentioned a lot like why hasn't the mainstream picked up on this you know i think this idea of programmable money

really only just you ha it has to click with you i don't yeah i've struggled explaining it to people but then once i've shown it to people recently it's slowly started to click with them and i don't think until people really see the benefits it's almost something like you can't force on people right so until you kind of have that aha moment you start using it and say wow that you know the benefits are truly here of this system um you know we might not actually see that mainstream media until then which might take some time yeah that's a good take all right eric we're going to conclude with um a couple of like just quick hit questions right now i'm looking at the uh ether launch pad and when david and i put out that post yesterday was kind of a call to action right so we are at about a

hundred thousand each staked in the contract we need about 424 000 more if we're going to hit the december first date and we need that within the next seven days because a week out the date will start to be pushed out further and further potentially do you think we hit it do you think we get to that mark and we launch december first or not i don't think so i think it's going to come a week after because people are going to realize what the yields will actually be and start to flow in so i i don't think we're going to hit it on that day but it's going to be shortly after okay so it doesn't yeah so whatever it's always going to be afterwards it's not going to be before because there's no incentive to go in early right you also kind of want

the information you kind of want to be fashionably late right you're not too late exactly you're definitely not early yeah yeah that makes sense do you think there's a chance eric that it could come down to do you remember the the great yam migration where suddenly it was like this rush the last like three to you know four hours uh and then everyone kind of piled in at the end do you think something like that could happen as well it could i mean i definitely think because there is no incentive to go early people are waiting till the last minute um but in like the yam situation it was like hey let's save the protocol it's not quite like that on you know for this it's it's more optics than anything so i think we're gonna see you know what happens if we don't hit it right okay

now we know how much we need and people start quoting apys hey you could earn 30 because there's only x amount in here and that's going to start i think attracting people and kind of right now it's like a game of chicken i would say who's going to go first who wants to go first um but we'll get there i think it'll just be slightly after and what is the best way that you've found to stake so far eric is it just you know you go through the guides that are available you watch maybe hudson jameson's video and you stake at home or are there other avenues yeah hudson's live stream was pretty good um i've just so i've been running multiple test nets to this point so i've pretty familiar with prism their discord is very helpful so i've

just become comfortable with that i am very excited that ledger today just announced that they're going to have support for e2 staking keys on ledger so one of the things i felt uncomfortable with personally is generating keys in terminal i just i'm not a command line terminal guy and the fact that i'm like generating these keys and just like copy pasting code in and like i'm trusting this process with a lot of my money it feels very iconic exactly and like if i can do that through a ledger i'll personally feel more comfortable so i'm excited for that and just a quick note on ledger david before you go is uh thanks to ledger for sponsoring the show of course as always i think they're going to be running some black friday deals and what eric is

talking about is not their um nano product right but their newer product um and that is going to be available possibly for some black friday deals next week so if you're looking to pick some of those up next week might be the time so eric when the genesis of a phase zero actually kicks off how much ease will be in it at genesis i mean 5 28 or whatever right well so here's the weird caveat is if my issue i submitted goes through yeah we have a yeah yeah so basically what if we don't

care about the minimum deposit amount and we want to put a hard date in so i put december 15th it seems to be getting very rough consensus like who knows how we actually do this stuff right um but if that goes in and we just say hey this date no matter what i would say like 300 000 but if that doesn't i think genesis is going to be at the very minimum of 520 and but then i think though we're going to see a larger influx so if you think about this from like game theory right you kind of want to know who's going in how much is in there and once like the genesis happens if you're like a profit maximalist right then you're like okay well if i go in now i know exactly what my yield is going to be

as opposed to now you're not quite sure you could be like what if 10 million come in at the last second you could be anywhere between 25 and 5 return right and and to clarify your uh the eip you submitted it's basically removing the 528 k threshold basically right so that would lower that down which means that there would be a higher rewards essentially higher interest paid out if it was lower than that why did they put a um why was the threshold put in place to begin with yeah so there's a couple attack factors one being like a gatekeeper attack so like if the stake is too high on the e2 side there can be some censorship that if it's too centralized there could be some censorship that can

happen um but it seems like the stake going over so far is pretty decentralized and like that's an economic analysis that happened when eth was i think 80 bucks so not as relevant anymore as well um so yeah this would basically say hey if we didn't hit it and we hit this date instead just go with it so you know if you're at 200k you're talking i think like 30 35 return which would be nice for those that are doing it we're doing it live [ __ ] it doing it live exactly all right eric so you've been through the cycles before and so we couldn't let you go without asking you the classic question of when are all times high when are all-time highs for each price and at what price will it be

december 2021 2500 bucks ah so you you know this it is known how did you come to those numbers if you don't mind me asking um i think one thing people underestimate is every cycle you go through it gets harder to pump higher market caps right so everyone expects the same you know crazy 10 000 and yeah bitcoin's done that i just think it becomes harder to push this market as shorting options are online there's more liquidity there's more access to all this stuff um i don't i personally don't see an insane target for the next run like a lot of people do i know a lot of people are calling for

10k you know i'm gonna i've learned my lessons i'm gonna exit a little bit earlier than people are anticipating this time fair enough fair enough and i've also recently heard a take where i compared ethereum's current cycle to bitcoin's last cycle um drawing the metaphor that ethereum is just one cycle behind bitcoin does that resonate with you or is that kind of just is that stale data i think it's more about like the maturity of the market as a whole to be honest i mean i i think we just saw this with defy like even in 2017 when eth was pumping there were really no options to short it the liquidity was pretty low institutions weren't involved if we look at what d5 just went through we went through an entire market cycle

in like three weeks because there was more liquidity there was access to shorting i think you know larger players were involved so i think i don't think you can really compare east current cycle to bitcoin three years ago because all this exists for eth now that didn't exist three years ago um you know there's futures all this stuff so um i i don't think the market is that simple i think it always throws a uh you know kind of throws something different at you who knows it could go to 80 tomorrow it could go to 50k tomorrow like i'm gonna stick somewhere in between at my 2500 number fair enough well prediction though that is 2500 in a year which would be a 2x i guess ish all-time high what's

interesting to me about the the 2016 last bull market comparisons is i remember entering 2016 uh entering 2017 rather and uh bitcoin price was around 400. um different market cap to eat but like eat prices floating in that 400 range and it did a run up to 20k totally different numbers because obviously the market caps are wildly different but it is interesting we could have a lot of play here for ether eric it has been a pleasure having you on thanks for guiding us through the culture through staking through our patriotic uh duties discussion and through the investor mindset as well really appreciate everything you are doing and welcome back to twitter sir how long

are you going to hang out with us thank you yeah we'll see how crazy the bull market gets right but yeah i know i'm going to stick around this time but i appreciate you guys having me this is a lot of fun all right it's been great to have you all right guys risks and disclaimers as always keith is risky so is crypto d5 is too if you choose to stick with eth uh keep in mind that it is especially risky in this first phase zero but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but thanks for joining us on another episode of state of the nation