Solving The Extensibility Problem with Griffin Dunaif of Halliday

Transcript

feels like over there is still more of the Wild Wild West even though it's out in the East smart contract zapier that's a good one you know in between supply and demand there's just friction and we need more apps and they're coming and they're coming as their own chain it's going to end up going from the super chain to arbitrum orbit to main net to salana GM guys what's up welcome to another episode of the rollup today we have a special episode about Commerce automation this is sort of a form of chain abstraction we're going to get into the details of it and why it's a little bit different from some of the other subsections of chain abstraction like orchestration or orderflow and auctions check out our chain abstraction map if you haven't already but today we have the pleasure of speaking with Griffin from Halliday he is a uh

Stanford computer science attendee and we are very excited to explore his approach to chain abstraction and commerce automation you guys aren't going to want to miss this one before we get into it a word from our sponsors enjoy welcome to the ignition Mantle's newest campaign to liberate the growth power of Bitcoin fbtc ignition has officially begun with a total token supply of over 2,000 fbtc with a tvl of over 150 million right now you can go on the fbtc website to see all of the featured campaigns saking opportunities and liquidity pools where you can utilize fbtc onchain today for some of the best yields available on l2s the

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on guys welcome back to the rollup today we are going to be talking chain abstraction Commerce automation intense solvers um and really some some of the kind of cross chain conversation that we're having really just pick it up where we left off today with Griffin uh Griffin you just got back from KBW I'm sure you're a little uh you're a little warped there little bit of jet lag but we're I'm I'm ready to go it's Monday yeah how was it out there was it fun it was excellent yes I think that i' I've been for the last three years now and it's it's great every single time nice yeah I'm going to Singapore first time in Korea or first time in Asia so looking for forward to kind of

checking it out but that time zone is going to be something to to handle that's for sure I do feel like that that the the the Eastern world is is massively growing while some of the Western World of crypto is is kind of in this different type of phase of growth with institutions and regulations and things Feels Like O over there is still more of the Wild Wild West even though it's out in the East a lot of gaming too I think you know pretty early on with um our business we focused on um Asia as a sort of growing gaming Market segment and if if you look just historically a lot of the Innovative video games um do come out of either Japan or Korea or other countries in Asia and then they make

their way to the sort of American publishing Studios that are a little more risk averse and you're seeing that in crypto like triaa gaming studios are building blockchain games I I don't know AAA gaming studios in America that are doing that yet um but that that's very very exciting because these are some of the best game studios in the world um making highly compelling uh blockchain content why do you think we haven't seen gaming take off in web 3 up until this point but it feels like we're on the precipice why do why do you think why do you think that is yeah you know my my real opinion is I think just games are really hard to build and it takes a long time and we we're in an industry where the Cycles are so fast right we're in a

software industry it's a global computer so you don't even have to worry about distribution in different countries so we're used to products just going like one two one two one two one two but a video game is really really hard it's 3D you need ton of people you need a lot of money it just takes three to five years to build a video game I I think that's ultimately what it is like they're just being built um they haven't been launched yet um they're coming and when they do I think people will forget about the fact that we had to wait but just look at like modern titles right like you know it's like Grand Theft Auto took like what like seven years to build or something I don't know the exact number but it was a long time it's it's a major production to build a triaa triaa title

yeah we still don't have the new Elder been waiting for that for like 12 years nice so you are a young guy like us a bit a bit younger than us and kind of having is this your first time being a Founder is is this your first time I I ran an edtech company like like a lot of Founders for like months and I tried to sell sort of AI software to a large bureaucratic University and I learned very quickly that market wins in that scenario if people don't want to buy you maybe shouldn't try to sell yeah but this is like the first Adventure back company I I've built and so you studied a lot around uh computer science in in

school and kind of distributed systems work and now building out holiday which you guys are describing as as Commerce automation I just want to give you a chance to kind of go into your background at all or kind of what you guys are are building and then we'll kind of take the conversation from there yeah yeah happy to start with my background so I I attended University uh back in 2019 so I started uh my degree in computer science in Stanford um I my focus was on systems so basically operating systems building software for bare metal hardware so I I did some work at the hardware software interface so trying to build software for like pure

arm chips um during my time though I got very interested I I I just liked math and computer science and then the sort of intersection of those two things is either machine learning or cryptography if you like continuous math do machine learning if you like discret math cryptography is more that Avenue so that's exactly what I did and so um I took a class called cs251 and I think the first lecture um is they sort of he that the professor he puts a slide on the screen that says crypto or blockchain is the intersection of distributed systems um cryptography and behavioral economics and I saw those three things on one slide and I was like

okay this is going to be good um and and that's actually what got me very interested in this the discipline as a whole was that was that class um and that first slide actually which combined many of my interests into one uh one space and that's actually I so after taking that course I did zero knowledge protocol design um where the worked with a professor there to to do some interesting stuff uh which led to just experimentation and building protocols um which eventually led to me leaving school to to found holiday was there any like aha moments that you had when you were kind of going down the research rabbit hole and then you know maybe you got pulled out and you took a look at what the market landscape looked

like at the time you know it was I think it was like 20 somewhere between 2019 and 2021 that you were kind of in this rabbit hole and then you know was there any was there any intersections between the the observations you had about the market and the research and you were like wow that's a big problem and it'll keep being a big problem until someone provides a solution yeah you know it's it's funny so that the the thing that got me to be incredibly High conviction on blockchain was actually gaming so I went through the other way I didn't go like blockchain to gaming went from gaming to blockchain and the the reason was I I think it was one summer like I woke up and I see a notification on my phone it's like huge concert is performed by Ariana Grande in fortnite

uh and I looked at that and I was like what like what is a superstar doing in a video game right like now you have Travis Scott marshmallow they're performing in front of millions of people in a virtual space and so I think that was a indicative of a trend which is video games are turning into social platforms so that's like the big backdrop technological movement which is platform shift you're going from Instagram to 3D synchronous virtual content and that's that's huge like and people talk about the metaverse and and this is a real sign that it's happening um then the second part of it was was actually in cs251 a random transaction on ethereum mainnet was chosen and it was from a game called axi Infinity it

just it consumed so much block space at the time that you know when he chose a random transaction it was axi um and so you know the professor he talked about how games were using the blockchain so but I I was interested in that and so I looked into the game and I heard about these things called gaming guilds so the the one of the early guilds was this thing called ygg and what they did was they would buy virtual assets and then lease it out to people and so they're like a digital holding company in a video game and you know I've played video games for a long time I've never seen that before like maybe you see that sort of an eve but like this was like a venture-backed company like why' you use an a6c backed business

in a video game that is insane that is so incredibly awesome uh so when I saw that I was like look we're doing concerts and video games you have holding companies in video games like that is the strongest signal for a major platform shift happening basically you have Capital markets in Virtual Worlds um and I wanted to be part of that so the the initial vision for the business was actually to build a a lending protocol to to be the bank of that ecosystem um but that that's what inspired me was like look if the metaverse is going to happen it's going to be this amalgamation of 3D virtual content and digital property rights um with sort of private interests that was a wild time

in crypto I mean that was a a nuts I I I remember we got some axi Infinity land in the earliest of days and that land was worth an insignificant or a a significant amount of of eth which was just ridiculous that was a wild a wild time but very interesting concept of being able to have a a kind of onchain relationship between a kind of landlord and a tenant or a renter and a buyer and a leasi so that particularly LED you to then think about how you can get assets into these networks or kind of like what was that what was the transition into this idea behind Commerce Automation and maybe we can start like why do you guys

feel that that is uh like a category or a way to describe holiday which is uh particularly impactful yeah yeah so I mean basically I I like to think about these worlds that we're building as as basically and I think it's a common analogy but like digital cities and I think fundamentally a a city is the combination of culture and commerce culture being the set of people their values their backgrounds the way they interact with each other and and crypto has a lot of culture it's a very sort of a you know it's it's a broad internet culture um but the other side of that which is Commerce is like this the the intersection uh at least in the real world is like institutions like the

government property law you know law enforcement um contractual law uh and when you have both the result is a place like New York City right it's amazing you have food you have opportunity you have jobs you have economics and it's this amazing experience it's like the difference between New York and Disney World is night and day right you wouldn't want to live in Disney World um but you do want to live in a place like New York city so I we looked at The Primitives we had in building that digital City and you realize that it's actually just very hard to do it right like you have the culture part that's not what we're lacking in crypto it's actually a lot of the sort of fundamental institutions

that make a city work um one of which being Commerce how do you exchange value easily how do you own things how do you make that process of transferring an item from one you know Alice to Bob um how do you get money into the system in the first place how do you exchange it how do you move money out um those are all essential things that you know we we largely take for granted in in the real world that there's a there was Zero infrastructure for um on the blockchain especially in the world where everybody's now launching their own chains which adds a whole layer of complexity to this discussion so what when we looked at this set of problems said look Commerce is important Commerce drives activity and creation of of goods

and services right like ultimately the goal of Commerce is to distribute goods and services if it's too hard to engage in Commerce you don't get goods and services is so what we want to do is we want to make that process of Distributing goods and services automatic so it's automating those to reduce the friction so that more goods and services can be distributed on the blockchain like that is the principal driving motivation of the business is to facilitate the creation of these sort of digital civilizations these digital cities um and the way you do that is by making it easier to to interface and to transact with other people yeah so I was on a I was on a podcast uh a couple weeks ago in New York City actually with and so true in New York

City it was so easy to get a bunch of people in crypto in a room do conversations facilitate business activities these types of things on chain are like these hubs that we're trying to build as you kind of alluded to right we have like we're big Believers in this idea of kind of this modular future we should scale out with different app chains people should own their execution environment uh you know we should we should be be building this kind of rollup Centric road map I've got this a veil shirt on today so definitely like big big fans of of this Vision but you with that comes uh complexities like you're saying and kind of how you guys have grown to find this complexity and find a way to solve it and one of the complexities that I was hearing about

from Jim from Catalyst on this podcast was and actually an opportunity that I think that you guys are kind of tackling is and he actually framed as one of the biggest opportunities right now in crypto and still one of the wild wild wests which is this idea of being a solver for these longer tail chains and so right now you have a lot of different teams who are helping to do cross chain interoperability solutions for arbitrum to ethereum and arbitrum to optimism these big l2s to L1 but there's also a large portion of chains that are kind of left out of that mix because for these large solvers like winter mute and some of these others doesn't really make

finan sense for them or they just don't have the infrastructure to kind of like scale in in that much of an adaptable fashion and so he made he made the comment that if you have you know 10,000 bucks you can figure out how to be a solver for some of these long cha tains uh chains right now the aprs are are pretty insane if you can kind of figure out the best Niche routes um so I kind of wanted to bring this to you and and just kind of ask how you're seeing the this landscape right now um of Commerce automation uh and how it kind of ties into uh this basically this intense based solving Network landscape and you know if you're seeing some of these

opportunities out there right now how you guys are thinking about them and just kind of like what that what that landscape is looking like for Commerce automation right now in terms of these longtail chains and then I think that we can talk about more of like the onboarding to them as well absolutely so I mean longtail midcap chains have been a large part of our business business and and we've been live in production doing this since last November um okay he asked me that too he was like are they live are they actually solving and then I think I I asked you and you were like yep oh yeah I mean we're like we've been solving for close to to a year in this context like we we service I mean alt l1s and Avalanche rollups um you know ape chain is going live very soon

um so we're very familiar with this problem space you know and defi kingdoms had this problem and to put it succinctly is you launch your new blockchain you generate a wallet the very first question you have to tackle after that is how do I unlock the value that users have and make it easy for that value to go to my network basically I'm a chain how do I increase my tvl how do I grow my Revenue as a business that's actually a very complicated question now back in L1 days not very complicated now it is because a user's balance can be in crypto on a different chain a user's balance can be in a centralized exchange a user's balance can be in

Fiat and all those different pools of value have different Pathways to your network you know some on-ramps support a subset of the chains some centralized exchanges support a non-overlapping set of chains so what ends up happening to support all those sources of value is you just have to do like a year of integration it's just a lot of software W and you as a developer you as a rollup developer you don't want to deal with that um we have I can tell you from first end experience it's a pain like we've done a year of integration work and we're still doing more right you have so many different Bridges now you have different intent protocols you have different slightly different EVMS right

not all EVMS are the same they have you know you have to redo your contracts for different chains ZK chains versus optimistic chains different message passing protocols so what Commerce automation is is you and we like to describe as it's not interop it's a highlevel automation service that drives composability on top of existing infrastructure so you can think of us almost as this like programmable run time that is purpose built for the multi-chain world so like we're not trying to solve like the internet problem which is how do you communicate from one chain to another we're trying to solve the usability problem which is how do you automate all of these different interactions right

because every interrupt protocol is a slightly different sort of data processing system and so the problem now becomes like how do you Stitch those all together in a uniform interface um and that's exactly what we've done and have service to you know over 28 clients got it so coming back to the kind of like Original Point you guys are solving these longtail l2s and l3s and you're seeing that there's a lot of that there's a lot of meat on the bone to be Tak in these routes and there's not much competition or like or like is that landscape getting kind of like like what is that that landscape like is anybody solving like app chain a to app chain B that have you know less than 10 million

tvl or like are those just going kind of untouched like like how are you guys seeing that play out now yeah you know it's interesting like I I I would honestly argue that this solving part is not necessarily the the ne the the important part of servicing those clients and the reason I say that is look I I think in the next six months to a year message passing and Native interrup is going to get pretty good and pretty low latency um so they ultimately like a token going from one chain to another you know maybe you want liquidity bridging between major chains but like a random L three you're probably going through the canonical

system so we're solving in the sense that we are automating and moving data from one chain to another and making that very very easy um so so I think the opportunity is in building software that can service that world right like like the solving part like we take zero Mar all we we don't charge you for swaps um we're not monetizing via the fact that these are longtail assets we're more building a technology platform that is built under the assumption that there's going to be a million chance that I think is the very large opportunity and we saw this in the the sort of creation of the cloud right a lot of software was built for on Prem there were a few software companies

that said no there's G to be a lot of cloud stuff and they built for the cloud and they did very well that that's more how I view it I'm like look it's hard to orchestrate data and value to do Commerce across many different rollups the the serve liquidity management part I do think is a separate problem that I that I don't actually think applies as much to longtail chains so you mentioned kind of orchestrating data like across some of these chains and especially for Commerce and so I think we've heard a little bit more about this over the recent months when talking about chain abstraction how this is quite a bit different from from interop which is typically concerned with more of the general message passing

um and then you have some intent-based uh for for Value transfers as well but you know this is primarily from one place to another It's A to B when you want to to go from A to B to C to D to e that's when you need something to automate the the interop and string together the interop services so that to the end user it is quite an automatic process now I so I would like I kind of a two-part question the the first part um would love kind of a concise explanation of you already explained how Commerce automation is uh separate from interop and I think that makes a lot of sense

could you also kind of have a uh answer a similar question but how does commerce automation differ from orchestration and and I'm gonna attempt to answer that question but would love kind of for you to pick up and build on top which is that orchestration is stringing together the these interop Services you guys take it one step further by integrating Fiat on ramps and off ramps and so so I think that's an entirely uh that is a problem space that is particularly important would love to get into that as well but is there anything else that separates you guys from kind of the existing orchestration plays or or generally how are you thinking about Commerce Automation and orchestration totally totally yeah I think like to me orchestration is a very very

broad concept right like you know mo most companies most software is doing some form of orchestration we orchestrate and automate processes with a mission like that that's why I say Commerce Automation and you sort of see it reflected in the product we are building all the software for an outcome which is to increase Commerce on your chain so that means we're not going to build orchestration automations that have nothing to do with facilitating Commerce you can almost think of it as like it is a general system that is programmable but purpose-built for a use case and a set of use cases like we're probably not going to do them more you know like there's this there's a class of

orchestrations we will most likely not move into as a business where we are as a business is those onchain orchestrations that involve value those autom and I like the word automation to because orchestration often applies or implies many different systems but we also power things like recurring payments right where you you want to do something over and over and over again but you don't want to worry about scheduling and fault tolerance and that's a commercial use case and then you're exactly correct Robbie in the sense that we have also work with fintech businesses in payment companies because we think it's incredibly important that these players enter the space and that they don't need to worry about the immense complexity of dealing

with a billion different blockchains right so let's take Fiat on Rams their business is a Fiat business their business is fraud it's compliance their business is not doing a year of integration work on the blockchain and so we work with parties like that and we do the hard work for them to extend their coverage to longtail chains we extend the coverage of centralized exchanges as well and we extend the coverage of any other fintech business that just wants to operate over the blockchain and not worry about all the different nitty-gritty details and so that's how I sort of categorize orchestration versus Commerce automation is it's built for the use case um we're

not trying to solve every orchestration problem at once got it could you maybe illuminate an example um of one of these paths like like what is a like who like who is a client or a customer or who is a or what is an example path that holiday can help users either get some funds onto a chain or like like how does this yeah put this into practical terms for us and maybe a counter example too of like a an orchestration problem that you guys wouldn't tackle because it's outside the scope of Commerce automation yeah yeah you know one I I'll try to think of like an orchestration problem right now like one might be like you have some mapping data structure in your application and you want to Shard

your execution across five different chains like like to something that's like very very low-level programming primitive that like you want to sort of do State Management across bunch of chains like we're a little bit more opinionated with with what we do right now we may go in that direction as the Computing model gets more sophisticated but I think right now the the problems we see revolve around Commerce and revolve around automating Commerce like that that's really the mission of the company data management not not as much right now so like we we wouldn't be the best like you know shared State machine uh Library um at least right now um then for an example of okay what's a

flow that we support right now um you know know a great one might be sort talking about AP chain and so that's an arbitrum orbit um that's on an L3 and now the question becomes how do you support Fiat on ramping onto that L3 well so stripe you know one of the one of the major onramps they don't support l3s they actually have very limited coverage but they have a very good product right so what you can end up doing is either you can go Fiat to base swap it Bridge it across swap again Bridge it up into the L3 so sort of that multihop process

or you can go from Fiat to main net and then Swap and Bridge it up into the L3 see you see a lot of these different routes and so basically cnly what we do is you say look you want to access to a Fiat on-ramp that on-ramp supports only a few networks we will route it and automate all those processes on chain so that you get the native onw WP experience on your L3 on your L2 doesn't matter if you use ccip layer zero whatever interrup solution you're you're working with we'll Stitch those all together at a higher level so that you can just get Commerce on your chain nice and so what does that look like in

in you know more I guess more technical terms because from from what I understand um the there there's an oracle problem where if you're trying to connect a Fiat on ramp or or kind of a Fiat bank account with an onchain account and you want to do some intent-based solving uh for that account you know let's say I uh I I want to let's say it's the on-ramp route right and I'm going from my Fiat bank account to to ape chain well how do how do you know as the ape chain solver to credit my AP chain account when like when when on onchain we have

these resource locks right we we lock the state we know that the the solver can get access once it finalizes on the canonical it finalizes on on the destination chain but do you guys have any insight to the Fiat banking account or you how do you leverage stripe to gain access to the the Fiat funds on the other side so how these on-ramps will work is they'll they will actually convert from Fiat to let's say usdc so they'll settle with a on onto the chain with a cryptocurrency and then the way you Stitch all those things together um where we're sort of attestable is you actually we form these paths as a declarative system um so whenever you

have like a lot of sort of underlying complexity the approach that we've taken is you hop up an abstraction level you build a higher level description that is declared and we say look this is the path this is where we want to go here's the input here's the output and here's maybe some different paths and dependencies if the input is satisfied the solver then knows that they can go out and do all the complicated computation to solve that path so you can think of us as we built this higher level programming model that knows how to talk to Fiat systems that knows how to interact with them but then also knows how to abstract away all of the

automation composability complexity of the many blockchain world it's it's almost a virtual machine it's almost a higher level virtual machine it's programmable right you can build programs we're the ones building the programs right now and serving it as products but the vision is actually to to open that up and say look multi-chain programs have just become possible um and it's easy like right now that that sounds insane like no nobody wants to build a multi-chain program because it's so incredibly complicated um but there's a lot of use case being like our entire company is a multi-chain program um and we want to we want to make take that complexity down you know tenfold yep got it so user submits their Fiat transaction via stripe uh stripe uh

serves usdc on mainnet for example and then you guys relay that usdc to the destination chain over on ape chain and satisfy the the outcome the user was looking to achieve um how extensible is this like since you guys have the integration with stripe and stripe every time doesn't matter what destination chain the user is looking to to end up on every time they're just going to send some Fiat through stripe it's going to land on mainnet how extensive is your solution to go take that from mainnet go serve it on ape chain go serve it on all all the other arbitrum orbit chains or the super chain no so that that is the in like that is the entire bet of this company

it's incredibly extensible like we can go to a new chain at this point in a day um like building I always I always tell people like look building software for five chains is very different from building under the assumption that there's going to be a thousand chains like that is a step function level investment you really have to believe in that to to put in the time and effort to make your system work in that world it's extensible beyond yeah I mean look for for on- ramping for different use cases we are building a unified way to run these automations across any set of networks you almost think of it as like a Commerce version of zappier but that's smart contract based right and it could

be on any single Network you can do whatever you want with it we're just the initial consumer of that we're the ones building the applications right now yep smart contract zapier that's a that's a good one um okay so one hypothetical example here is and and I think it's a reasonable one because uh in order to get to a level of thousands of chains or millions of chains we're GNA have several app Chains From my perspective I think I think that's kind of foreseeable as an outcome and so one of the most popular applications right now poly market right for example hypothetically let's say they were to go launch an app chain um I think it's a no-brainer that they would try to accept some sort of Fiat debit card credit card some sort of

Fiat on ramping right so really regardless of what kind of like app chain stack they use you guys could facilitate the on- ramping into some arbitrary app chain stack for for Fiat onramps 100% yeah and what about the other e e um execution environments how is that is it as extensible there as well like salana Aptos NM on a rollup stack Etc so you're really all in on this then because like that's that's how I see too like this is going the expansion of chains and the differentiator like the the slight differences in the the execution and things are just gonna it's gonna just explode exactly so like what

we what I what we say is like look there's maybe one or two highlevel descriptions that we're building the sort of higher level automation syntax then there's maybe 10 a dozen implementations right how many VMS will there be realistically maybe we can look at pre-existing programming languages like usually there's not more than like 10 to 20 like really popular like programming languages and then there's just going to be hundreds thousands millions of applications and so that that's the way we're building the technology so we'll be on every single virtual machine and that's because we've made the investment to Define the higher level syntax separate from these sort of

assumptions about specific virtual machines I I I think there's certainly uh there's a vector here where to get like right now crypto is just the same money just moving and flowing between itself right there's there's a lot of interop and composability between the super chains between orbit orbit chains but we don't have the tentacles that reach into like the Fiat world and easily compose the Fiat world with the onchain world yet I think there is a motivation for the entire crypto Community to work together to try to in inject New Capital into the crypto verse whether it ends up on the super chain it's going to end up going from the super chain to arbitrum orbit to main net to salana it'll flow once it's

onchain it'll flow but there is a common goal that all of these onchain Builders have to get new capital injections from the Fiat world into the onchain world yes and and that's you know like I think everything right now should and is incredibly positive sum like the blockchain versus the internet in terms of scale is we're just not even remotely in the same strata right now so we should all want there just to be a lot more users a lot more capital inflows I also think we want to make it easier for there to be Capital outflows so that people don't feel that there's an opportunity cost to holding their value on the blockchain like one of the problems with the blockchain is once you

put your money on chain it's very hard to actually use it I can't go out and buy a Coca-Cola with my crypto balance right it doesn't talk to the incumbent networks it doesn't talk to the point of sale Merchant systems um so having those two systems communicate back and forth is a major undertaking and is is something we're actually very interested in as well is how do you just facilitate bidirectional value exchange and this is why we say Commerce and not payments in in in what what we talk about payments is one way Commerce is bidirectional Commerce is a super set of payments and I think blockchain uniquely enables B directional value exchange between users and application developers welcome

aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for fra and FRA the new L2 out of the fra ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal is a modular L2 blockchain built by fra with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the fra ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed

from its OG days of the FRX stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this frax L2 joins the existing Suite of fra products including Frack Swap and fra lend you can see fra fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fra main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the best out of frax you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity could you walk us through a a

transaction flow uh the reverse Direction going from ape chain back through maybe stripe ending up in the Fiat uh bank account yeah so I I mean stripe stripe doesn't do off- ramping there they're different people who do off- ramping it's it's again this is why it's so fragmented and you need these Automation Services um but you know a flow would be you withdraw from your L3 to an L2 you hop it probably across to one of the like maybe a base um or you keep it on arbitrum if the offramp supports that swap that token into a stable and then offramp it to Fiat and then you could use it somewhere right so you have this whole layer of coordination that needs

to take place um before you can even have access to those funds and so that's what we enable to is like look no matter where your funds are no matter what shape they take you can get access to that in Fiat again through Commerce automation got it okay um there was something that came up in the new that that makes a lot of sense and and I think again there's like you mentioned the fragmentation so I'm very excited to see that get solved over over the coming months and years um hopefully sooner and there was a there was a a recent piece of news um that got me excited too which was from Apple they're opening up their their Enclave chip so that you can use tap to pay and and so Circle and

coinbase put out this this article where I think it was the the founder of circle is Jeremy air that said um USD is coming to to to iPhones or something like that he couldn't say Apple pay because Apple pay is like their their canonical brand for like their apple wallet but basically you're going to be able to Bend crypto from your iPhone tap to pay which is a major convenience unlock and so how how do you think this impacts your business for For Better or For Worse like is there an alternative flow or um just generally what do you think this means for Commerce automation as as a market segment I think that 10x is the market size overnight if if

large incumbent financial institutions start wanting to tap into the value present on the blockchain to Drive Commerce and day-to-day life right like that that sort of breaks the barrier between blockchain and just everything else like the you know right Aid the real world buying coffee um and I think that's actually hugely important because when you drive value the other way it encourages people to come on because you now you can hold your money in an interest bearing you know stable coin you can put it into defi you can still spend it it you can still use it and we also forget for most of the world who doesn't necessarily have access to great financial products and services this is a global way to do that Visa is already

Global um having them tap into that capability would be a huge win for the industry like I I think we should all really want this to happen um because this will just drive activity in and out and then the question becomes how do you make that how do you reduce the friction actually making that possible that's what how is for right you know you as a as a payments business you don't want to worry about Automation and orchestration of the flow of funds um as a user you also don't want to worry about that so we're this sort of interstial protocol that runs this computer environment that makes that very very easy yeah I think not in that world we're going to see the

expansion happening as you're as you're touching on which I think is going to be materially larger in terms of liquidity uh mind share users and then I think on on the other side inside the crypto where we're just going to continue to see the expansion it's kind of mod your expansion of new Chains new new apps new developments new funding and just like both of these growing at the same time um I think positions holiday well and I think positions many people well who are kind of see seeing this trend unfold um so kind of like as we come to a wrap up curious on how how you guys are seeing this this module expansion and as you guys have gone down this journey taking this kind of gamble on okay there's going to be a lot and lot a

lot of chains how how has your business model evolved and how do you anticipate the business and kind of the the offerings that you guys are bringing to the mod your ecosystem evolving as the amount of chains continues to scale and scale and scale yeah so that that's a great question I think one thing that we've noticed as this you know the number of chains has expanded and like I have incredible High conviction that there's going to be more than a million chance before we know it it's it's going to get crazy and it's going to get crazy very quickly um like these exponential growth laws are just absurd and same in the Internet it's going to happen gonna happen again because of that we have focused the business we we used to do a little

bit more but now we are just focused on this problem which is how do you build programmable composability with the mission of facilitating Commerce across a million chains how do you how do you actually support in a million chain World under the assumption that look there's going to be different canonical systems different message passing systems different dexes that is a really big problem and then how do you do it so you can write it once and it just works independent of the different systems how do you make it programmable like how do you build these recurring systems like recurring payments are important how do you build a recurring payment in a many chain world that's actually a pretty pretty

deep question um how do you just build applications that run across many chains and give developers a way to do that that's not absurdly complicated um there are no answers to this right now I actually think we're in the phase of building these systems and so ultimately for Holiday we want to give developers programmable Commerce we want to give them you know a zappier like experience where you can just Stitch things together and it just works you don't need to build you know a sophisticated orchestration engine um before you get building your app and we need more apps and they're coming and they're coming as their own chain and um I think H holiday

will be there to service them and I'm just particularly excited just to see this play out and then to see to see how these interoperability solutions kind of manage then to see the more of the chain abstraction Solutions bring it together and then all like Solutions like holiday which I think fit into the chain abstraction side of things uh kind of really help put this all together on on the dev side as well as on the user side it does feel like we're we're very very close it feels like absolutely there there's a great clip from the uh the founder of Shopify where he's like what a lot of people missed like because a lot of people passed on Shopify early on because they they didn't think there was enough demand he's like you know in between between supply and demand

there's just friction if it's too hard to do anything like of course nothing will get done and we're in that mode again right where it's like why are there no multi-chain apps well because you need like a computer science degree and two years of investment through a venture back company to even start to tackle that problem like of course there's going to be no apps so our goal is in making it easy and making it programmable and making it automated the cost for new developer is now zero it's a we're protocol you can use it for free just call Smart contracts we're good to go right like that is a dramatic difference um and it's it's very exciting that we're we're getting to that

[Music] point cartey is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain tech technology cartey enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cy. that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today Griffin for uh for people that are for Founders Builders people that are building apps and chains uh and they're

looking to get on-ramps easily hooked up to to their chain get liquidity there where where can they reach out and kind of get on your list to to get integrated absolutely I mean you can reach out to me directly on Twitter at g r ffi n t r um or our website there's a bunch of call outs where you can book a call with us you can reach out to us via email um any any channel like it's more than happy to to talk or or through our you know h l i d a yhq which is just our company Twitter um happy to talk there as well perfect awesome thanks thanks for coming on man

super excited for what's to come in the modu space I think like we've been focusing a lot on this chain abstraction realm if you will just because it feels like it's such a necessary component to make this work um it's like our our big our big kind of bet and our big focus with the brand with our investments and just with everything is just it's kind of all coming down to like we need this to work we need this part of the equation to work and so really thinking that uh thinking this through with with Solutions like holiday and and just kind of the focuses that we've been having over the last couple of months it does feel closer than ever still feels like an existential problem that needs solving which means that there's a market for it for Builders and for products to kind of win out so um

looking forward to catching up in a couple months again on the Pod and kind of uh reassessing yes and and the pro protocol version of this will be released um in q1 of next year so big big stuff coming out I think you guys are in the right space like this is this is where all the hard problems are it's it's very exciting it's fun I love uh solving hard problems yeah math guy thank you guys you guys are actually both big math guys thanks for coming on G