Solana’s Vibe Shift, Restaking, and Yapping About Kaito | Ian Unsworth

Transcript

I thought split Capital had a fantastic take on this uh earlier which is like this is really like a byproduct of like Gary gensler's regime that he tried to implement of like you know saying come in and register with us and they essentially pushed all the legitimate projects offshore so it's like this really was a byproduct of essentially the industry being like choked out hey guys Das the digital asset Summit is coming back this year it'll be in New York City next month um there'll be a ton of great speakers and guests there uh some of our friends on the research team I know Mark June Ryan cash flows Conor they'll be there in the flesh um so you'll you can have a chance to to meet and chat with them and some key folks from around the industry and hear what they're thinking about crypto um

for all for all our listeners out there use code 0x10 at the link in the description um you can get 10% off tickets and we really hope to see you there nothing said on zerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are Sol our opinions not Financial advice pachio Ryan and our guests May hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed what's up guys welcome back to another episode of ZX research today I'm joined by Danny Danny and Ian from Kyros Kos Kyros research um Ian do you wanna do you want to give a gentle introduction of yourself and Kyros before we get started yeah sure

I'll give it a gentle introduction uh so kyus is like an independent research firm uh mainly focus on liquid staking reaking kind of the spillover effects into the rest of defi um just me and a co-founder uh both used to work at binance on the US arm uh did listings there um worked on the staking product as well uh but yeah we're all things crypto native thanks for having me on today thank you for coming on man um I guess like before we get started into I think we'll likely do like a round table style episode but we get before we get started into that I want to ask a bit about reaking and why you guys decided to get into that way back because now we know I

guess a better question is how has it been to because originally you were very much positioned as reaking and then since then you've shifted into staking and liquid staking and all things and um as a side note like obviously you know a lot about everything but I just always wanted to know like how you guys came about reaking and then how that you kind of shifted away a bit yeah I wouldn't say we shifted away I think it was just like we started our research there and then we started writing about other things as well to kind of like show there's actually more like you know breadths and depths to uh like the knowledge base but the reason that we started with reaking is just because we saw it as uh one of like the few kind of like Breakthrough uh D5 Primitives that's going to be around for like the next

decade uh it's going to take a while to actually kind of get going but I think as inflation continues to like Trend toward zero for a lot of these networks uh like reaking is going to matter a lot more um and we're already seeing that you know both on like salana and ethereum like the tvl is quite sticky uh and the important part of like where it's actually being used you know is across like these uh you know liquid assets and that's like a huge chunk of of defi over on ethereum now like um you know largest supplied asset on a it that's not eth itself is you know ethery W um and we just think it kind of makes like the Best Collateral and you're seeing the same thing happen over on Sal

now but uh as far as like you know seeing these abs kind of get going I think that's like a it's a longer term game and it's obviously quite painful for people while people are like really fatigued about the whole idea um but we think it's going to be pretty important for at least the next decade to come so definitely to have our um our focus on that that makes sense um on that staking note and about how yields are getting compressed I've actually so Celestia is also thinking about reducing inflation as well and Hyper liquid has like 2% API so I I agree with you on that that at some point you're going to need extra yield on top to make it worth it when do you I guess Daniel Smith this might be better

for you I don't know Danny if you guys already covered simd um Dan Smith how do you see that shaping out and do you think it is sustainable to reduce that it's at 4.7% right like that's the first reduction or something yeah so it's roughly in the neighborhood let's call it 5% for the for the sake of this conversation um inflation today and the proposal is to put like a a market driven controller on that number um the way it's structured is pretty aggressive actually blockworks research put out a nice piece on this and there's a companying tweet thread you should check out maybe we can link that in the show notes um but the way it's set up it's pretty aggressive so it can drop to zero in like a matter of

weeks if nobody un Stakes so the parameter they're using is the the stake rate with 50% being the lever um I know this is going to a governance vote I actually think next week and I don't know how much it shifted since it's been originally proposed to be fair um so I just to for additional context I am referring to like the initial proposal uh and some of these things may have been tweaked but the initial proposal mentioned a stake rate of 50% and then for every percentage point above that 50% it would increase the rate at which the current inflation rate decreases um so for example if you at like 100% Stak you would decrease the total inflation very quickly if you were at 51% it would still be decreasing but at a much slower rate um and the current stake rates

roughly let's call 65 70% um and in this uh world if nobody un Stakes then inflation will go to zero in like two to three weeks basically um it's based on Salon Epoch Salon Epoch are roughly two days two days and some change um and yeah that's kind of like the the the gist of it uh I defin think it's directionally correct I am just a little bit worried that I don't think anyone's going to unstake if inflation goes to zero I I I I really don't think people are super tolerant to that or if they do it'll be like a very slow reactionary point in time right like this is kind of my point about staking yields more broadly um if you like zoom out to this ETF conversation as well staking is

coming there and like I just don't think there's a ton of capital sitting on the sidelines being like all right I'm going to buy this 70 of all asset if I get 3% yield on it right it's like that's just not the it's not the needle driver so if your salana staking rate goes from you know let's call it 7% to 2 and a half 3% um I just don't think it's gonna like I I don't think that's going to be the trigger for people to like ah I'm unstaking I'm selling I'm out of here I just don't think that that piece of the puzzle is as important as it's being uh kind of made out to be and then the other piece is liquid staking so let's say I am staked and let's say my yield moves from you know 7 to 2% um okay and now I'm like pissed my

all right I got to get more yield because that's what's important to me like what am I going to do am I going to move into stables and go farm those or am I just going to take my soul move it into jeto Soul or some other LST and then go farm with that right and if I do that I actually didn't unstake uh my my net change is my revealed preference is actually just yield and I can do that through a liquid staking token um so for those reasons I do think it'll go to zero I think it'll go to zero rather quick quickly um and I just not convinced that that's like super bad I think the one thing that I don't have a good enough understanding of of how this may or may not negatively impact is the whole voting uh piece of the puzzle here

so validators vote on block uh the the fork and they are rewarded for doing so um and it costs money to do so as well right there are you know cost about 360 Soul per year for a validator to participate in the voting of the network and I just I I I don't even know if I'm worried here just one thing I have more questions about is like all right if inflation goes to zero then there's less reward for voting on blocks and like will that have any impact at all I guess that's really the broader Point here um and I I also feel like the distribution of rewards is stake stake weighted I think that's a good thing but one of the drawbacks here is if you're a new validator who just joined the set it's

pretty hard to hit that break even Point um and reducing inflation will make it harder for that group so we need to think about how commiss rates um need to change in response to a change inflation is is kind of the other thing here and so that's really important for things like uh jto stake distribution any other LST stake distribution in the salana foundation stake program right like right now I think the max you can have is like somewhere between eight and 10% commission I think that needs to move higher in a world where there's no inflation I think that makes sense um how forgive me for asking this how the hell does Reb play into this that's what's going to be returned eventually right RV a very hot topic today a fundamental truth that people love to

argue about um yeah so this is I mean this is exactly why RV is important yeah right if if inflation is this great bootstrapping mechanism what's the long-term solution well it's taking user generated activity creating value from that capturing value from that not extracting as this industry is so obsessed with hating on right you're just selling a viable product people want to pay for it you take some margin so you have this RV number it's your huge Topline number and some portion of that will flow back to the Token some portion of that will flow back to validators who operate the network and some portion of that will throw flow back to infrastructure providers who provide services um in of their own right could be GTO Labs could be LST providers things of that nature so RV is

the sustainable portion of this right um again just rounding here let's say inflation yield is like 5% and total staking yield is 8% um if inflation goes to zero you're left with that 3% what is it consisted of R uh so that is that is why RV is an important metric as a token holder uh it is the cash flows you receive all right I want to talk about that thing and I want everybody to talk about it as well this take is a bit insane um I'm sure you guys have seen this but this is zerox NG GMI tweeted it out and said around 3.6 to 6.6 billion has been extracted from memes on Solana um this assumes that trading Bots and apps

extracted one bill pump fun extracted 500 mil me extraction at two bill um amm at two bill so I'm going to say two things about I'm Gonna Leave This up but um I'm gonna say two things here first of all I don't think you can say me is extraction if it's priority fees and fees because that's just people paying to use the product I will say and that Smith and Danny please don't be upset with me but I will say 500 mil for pump fun that's not extraction people are paying to use that but that is money that we've seen go out of the ecosystem to crocken

specifically and um a second number that I wanted to pull up was this one and I think I'm going to tie this all together into a fantastic are we seeing a Vibe shift on SOL thing and this is by this guy named wasi lawyer who friendly ran the numbers and said that real realized pnl for the Libra token was negative 286 mil um which would explain why people are very very upset so General I just want to talk a bit about this I don't want to give a rundown of the Libra stuff I think most people who are listening to the Pod have a general understanding a what are the odds that we see a vibe shift on soana B what are the chances that that actually negatively

impacts it fundamentally and I wanna I guess I kind of want a bear bear case for Solana and a bull case for Solana like what do we think do we think it doesn't matter at all we fought about this with Danny like three times already so Danny you can start if you want and then we can we can move around the table to Ian second and then Dan Smith final with the data yeah um I just want to make one comment on the ZX not ngmi take I just I find it funny that um that the Topline tweet is like how much extracted from meme coins on salana and then the response about open C is how much openc made and not ex like the wording there is a bit strange to be deliberate about

using extraction and then not using it for the nft trading platforms not that I don't know if he was doing that intentionally or if just like this that's where this industry is today like we're just so upset about memes that we have use the word extracted today but um I find this point just hilarious that we're like trying to be virtu signaling about which apps are extracting and which apps are making money um I think that's just stupid like they're all they're all just taking revenues from you know by offering users of service that are paying the fee to use the service it's let's stop calling it extracting it's a bit stupid from that lens um for the but I like the topic Bull and be case like I think it's clear there's a clear picture for a bease here that um you know users can become upset

here in the short term and you know if we if that means we see a drop off in activity um you know it's natural that you could see people kind of shift away from wanting to trade the hot new thing if they think that uh they're going to get dumped on by an Insider um it's become a bit more common past two weeks right since the Trump launch so um more of the new tokens and new things that are launching are just you know it seems to be at least that a majority of these like new hot things um have been you know more uh you know not quite as maybe like PVE if you want to call it that um as they have been in the past and so it wouldn't be surprising to see the market kind of you know change behaviors or like people who

are you know trading things on chain change their behavior a little bit and like maybe take a little break or look for things that are not following that model again um and back off and do other things so I think there's a clear like immediate term bare case of you know we could see meme trading activity cool um quite significantly like if we look last year there was a bit of a BL with like animal coins you know whiffs and Pepes and um you know you saw Salon trading activity kind of peak in early 24 and then um even you know you saw this in the pump fun metrics as well but fall by what more than 50% going into the summer um so it wouldn't be crazy to see that again you know I think we could certainly see a cooling off period and

then whether it continues on from there that's probably like a longer discussion that we could have but um I'll leave that take there and we can go from there and do you have anything you want to add or should I give a response and then you can continue talk what uh no I I think Danny hit on some good points there I definitely agree with the whole like extraction thing as I alluded to in that first response but it's just like these are businesses making money off of what users want to do um and that is exclusive or excluding uh something like front running and sandwiching that is extraction very much so Insider knowledge of things extraction scams outright scams like this Libra token extraction there there's a very different piece of that than like I don't know moonshot charging you 1% per trade yeah that's a really shitty

[ __ ] fee model and uh as as me I don't trade on it because it's a bad fee model but that doesn't make it extraction right I it's a free market they're charging that because they think that they can make a viable business out of it I think the uh opposite view of that would be they're charging that because they know this is super shortlived and their goal is to just make as much money as possible as quickly as possible because this won't be a viable long-term business um you I feel like you can be rationally on either side of those fences but I just struggle to call that extraction again like the user is willing opting in to pay this 1% fee that's just kind of the difference there for me um as far as like is this bad for salana uh so so

mcoin trading roughly makes up ballpark like 70 to 80% of RV today so if that were to just poof go away overnight that is definitely not a great scenario to be in from this fundamental standpoint um and I think there's a pretty interesting story to be told around that piece so if you like zoom out and think about this uh let's call it this like meta of on or this sector of onchain speculative gambling I I don't really have a great name for it but uh let's just call it speculation for the sake of this conversation they kind of like got born let's say a decade ago with Doge uh didn't was very simple game Buy sell coin one coin and then it kind of evolved from there really hit a Heyday with nfts in 2021 um There Was You know

the songs of like the importance of how nfts are shaping the the world let alone the industry and whatnot and there's many 10 10K pfps got launched different set of pictures roughly this interesting new game of of speculation fast forward to this cycle that shifted to meme coins where you know the marginal cost of launching a new token is basically zero and you can crank these things out ad nauseum there's a million tokens a week etc etc that's where we are today that is all this same game that has taken like these evolutionary steps um into what it is today and I think it kind of like got almost like took a step further in the the style of game the hardness of

the game and the abilities for like insiders to win at this game as well right I think that like we put a huge exclamation point on that with the the whole Libra thing um this was like very clearly Insider driven from many different perspectives from the people involved to how it got launched etc etc um and so when you think about like okay is this good or bad for Solon like what does this mean for the change you have to say like okay we've seen this game iterate over the years and this is probably just another one of those Cycles so what is the next game going to be and what does like is salana in a position to capture the activity from this next game that's what I'm thinking about um and so if you look back at to why nfts left uh or where

nfts were in 2021 largely ethereum a little bit on the l2s but like I know it's probably like 9010 on ethereum uh so why did they leave well the the tech and the culture kind of shifted away from that and they went to the new game kind of like picked up and left and 99% of the activity on mcoins happens on salana so if it's like we point to those two things the tech and the culture does salana still have that for the next iteration of this game probably yes but again like without knowing what that game's going to be it's hard to say it's probably something in the AI space I think that'll Heap back up again in the back half of this year without a doubt as like open AI launches its agent framework and all the other ones do as well

Ian Bach you had your hand raised I think you had something I was going to say the next could be I layer but I didn't on purpose so we can move on the the next what the next game yeah the next game could be reaking leverage lever it up no I um I've been thinking about that quite a I I want you to go first and then I want to end it with my General things and then because I've been thinking about that Capital game for quite a bit these days okay just go ahead and run with it then here I gotta take really quick then I do think there's a we are seeing some early app teams I'm just gonna jump in because you guys are playing around I

we're seen some early app teams that are maybe trying to capitalize on what a next game could be in terms of like you know I think a lot of this industry still boils down to like just pure Trend and narrative trading like people talk about M alts mus m fundamentals and like fundamentally what I think a lot of people are talking about is like I'm going to bid this AI coin because AI is like the trend The Narrative or I'm going to bid this other thing because this category is like the next Trend and I want to be early to that um and we are seeing some teams like on some of the newer chains um come out with or at least you know they're developing platforms where it's like pure Trend or like narrative trading and I don't know if that's like a poly Market style where

you're like going long short of particular narrative and then you maybe grab M share from you know CT or wherever else um and you can kind of go long short and play on that but um you know I think there's there's definitely future Evolutions that you know you might be able to get rid of The Insider problem um if you can kind of more accurately track Trends and allow people to just trade Trends yeah more so yeah and I also don't think this like Mega E has an app called noise um that's meant to be on the speculative thing thing that's meant to allow you to speculate on narratives the way that you describe them that um I don't think you can get rid of The Insider problem that's my like big thing um also Dan to your point how you said this was like

nfds yes or like you gave a very nice evolution of gambling on cryptocurrencies and I agree with the general point I will say that I see this more as both part of that but also like the way that I've been viewing this entire at least the past few months has been an overcorrection from what we had before where you could have no utility for tokens just because of the way that the regulation was set up and because of I don't know whatever other Dynamics and now we've like overcorrected way way too heavily and I think I saw a bunch of people blame toly and I can't remember and a bunch of

other people at Sal on a foundation which is so stupid because they clearly can't go out and say hey guys stop launching mem coins on like it's just it's send it's permissionless finest um on the other hand I also agree with you in that like I've been thinking about it what happens if Sol like the meme coin narrative dies okay RV goes down whatever like let's say it loses 50 60% of value I was going to pull this up I will now um this is from Dan you've actually been quite like to the listeners Daniel Smith had this thesis that we topped in with the Trump launch I don't know if he's like fully

fully Global macro top but he did say we've likely like he should probably reduce some exposure and if you look at the rev it has like pretty in hindsight it has pretty clearly topped with the Trump launch like how do you beat that a b even if Solana can't beat that and we do see like a steady decline whatever like it makes up 70 80% that declines 50% does it matter like what are you going to use instead there's hyper liquid what else I'm not going [ __ ] Avalanche like that's that's that's what I'm gonna I'm not going on a I'm not going on Sonic I don't give a [ __ ] like you can say it's good I'm sure the tech

is good there's just ethereum main net Mega E when it launches Monet when it launches that's it what else where else are you supposed to do defi stuff and I think Solana probably still stays just because of that because you got everybody to download wallets you now know how to bridge over Bridge back out like the distribution that they've done no matter how much you hate salana as the crime chain like they have better distribution than coinbase to an extent now so it doesn't really matter yeah I I definitely think you're on to something with the distribution part um like that's extremely hard to replicate I think like the the Phantom wallet screenshot meta kind of showed us how many like just people were downloading

this stuff and now we've got like you know moonshot and Photon and all those things as well I think that's extremely hard to like mimic for any other train uh like obviously everyone's going to want a phantom integration now like every time you're launching a train you're going to try to get like Phantom to add you on so you know it gives Phantom some great negotiating leverage there um but yeah I mean people are still going to be using salana these meme coins are going to live on it's not like people are just going to like like roll over and stop trading these things and if we like think of blockchains or layer ones as economies every economy has negative externalities you know like pollution is like a byproduct of manufacturing um you know like smoking is like a public health thing people are still going to do these things like

they're just going to live on we just have to accept that like you know these are negative externalities that are going to exist no matter what uh like The Insider stuff and all that it's like yeah that's if you're breaking the law like you're probably going to be charged and go to jail that it's like not that like complex like it's all onchain it's it's insane to be doing some of this stuff um so like that's that's not like our job to regulate like we're not Regulators um so like someone can step in and do that but like also I thought split Capital had a fantastic take on this uh earlier which is like this is really like a byproduct of like Gary gensler's regime that he tried to implement of like you know saying come in and register with us and they essentially pushed all the legitimate

projects offshore and then you know I can tell you firsthand from like being on the listings team it was a lot easier to list meme coins because like it's just so simple there's not like all these like things that you have to go and look at with like all these you know mechanisms and how they might represent you know different um you know bits of existing Financial like uh regulations so it's like this really was a byproduct of essentially the industry being like choked out and now we're just kind of like naturally healing like obviously these things are you know kind of passing on I do think it's going to be hard to like mimic you know the Trump talk um but obviously there's going to be

like a soft Landing away from this like you've got all the distribution and when you have distribution people want to go ahead and like launch in your chain uh so like even if like this is like 70 80% of like rev right now like time sensitive transactions are not like a thing that are just going to like go away people are going to be willing to pay priority fees on a bunch of different things it doesn't really it doesn't matter if it's like you know Libra coin or whatever coin Jail jail stool coin you know like it doesn't matter people are going to be trading these things no matter what Amen brother uh no I totally agree so I want to tie those two points from Bako and Ian together because Bak you were kind of talking about the idea that all right

this goes away like is salana dead is is basically the question you're trying to get at it in in my interpretation um and I think that ties beautifully to Ann's point of yeah today it's all mem coins but okay if you zoom out and say what is happening across the industry that is not happening on salana the list is quite short right reaking was like the big thing and then jto brought that on board and there's interesting things happening in in in that space across the ecosystem um and yet when you look at the so bako earlier pulled up the salon rev chart the last couple days have been on a downtrend yeah yeah and go to the um or here I'll share screen no let me do it please I want to be useful okay okay then go to the L1 comparison View

all right and then blow up uh zoom in on this top left chart I don't know how to do that top right corner of the chart nice okay so you look you'll you'll notice that salana rev is is in a downtrend over like let's call it the last seven days and now toggle this to 100% chart like what do you like what do you see right the whole industry is in a Downs slide and sana's uh share of total rev is roughly still 60% to me that's fascinating um the outlier here is B&B and B&B has kind of had this like meme Renaissance I think it's pretty interesting you can see in that I just want to bring that up while we're on this chart but um this is what the other piece here is like sana's rev will

probably take a serious 90 90 plus percent draw down from that Trump Peak to the whatever the low is at the next point in time and that doesn't mean the chain died that doesn't mean the chain is dead uh why salana has been so exciting to me over the last two years is because it proved that you can scale rev to a multi-billion dollar State on the back of Subs Cent transactions that is fascinating that was only a theory before salana this cycle right they proved that it was possible so whatever the next wave is of either a speculative game or a real defi application or some other thing it is very well POS Sal is very well positioned for that to occur on them on that chain right and you can argue about

you know oh I didn't want mem coins in the first place like that was always a distraction etc etc the chain got infinitely better in over the last two years because of all of this [ __ ] that was happening on it I'm not I'm not the biggest meme coin person in the world I trade them every now and then because it's like kind of fun to gamble on them but like I don't know I'm not a huge Gambler either but that doesn't mean I don't throw a random parlay with six you know six player props on a Super Bowl game right like I don't know it's fun I'm going to do it every now and then it's not like a burning passion of mine I generally think it's quite stupid um so that said it's like I'm looking for what's next not that the fact that

mem coins are going away and again I think sonana is in a great position to be the one that captures that it is it's still one of the best fast cheap chains now the the issue or not the issue but the the concern something to watch for is there's a lot of those now s and Aptos are you know one or two years into their about two years into their life cycle now and that's kind of this like momentum shift you can see that on every salonic chart that two to three year mark That's when things changed um and then we have mega eth and manad on the horizon as well but if you put a gun to my head and said you know who's going to be the beneficiary of the like uh what's call it like the negative cultural sentiment around salana over the past

week I think it's un CH hon well hyper liquid's on the list hyper liquid's on the list but I think it's uni chain I think they can do really cool things with like V4 hooks that will be very interesting to this type of thing so there's um Austin Adams who was involved with Unis swap for quite some time in like a research capacity is building Wet Stone um and they're also building pure markets I think that's pretty interesting the flunch thing's pretty interesting as well uh but I tweeted this the other day and Alex Watts from Fast Lane responded like oh by the way you're probably right but he actually disagreed he didn't even say I'm right but he said uh oh by the way there's actually a huge risk here with V4 V4 hooks ending up to be malicious and I was like I actually didn't think about

that that's pretty interesting so I don't know in a permissionless world you're always going to have scams and the big issue with mcoins I think it got much easier to generate a scam again you know earlier we talked about the marginal cost of launching a new coin is is zero yeah thank you for that Daniel I do think it's gotten much much easier to do scams I also think one of the main issues with meme coins is that some people genuinely think that they're like an evening force in crypto like they think it's it's good overall I think meme coins are just you know that thing that people used to say about me where it's like oh me is bad m is good and then I think like the best take for it is like it just exists and it's the same with mcoins like there's no such thing

as like a bad mem coin what there are but there's no like evening out Force for mem coins it's not like anti VC coins um it's just there like especially the current iterations they the way that they sell these supplies I don't know if you guys watch that coffeezilla thing with Libra and he was talking about whoever it is was talking about how they did a pre-sale for Trump token I'm GNA get swatted by the way but they did a pre-sale for the Trump token at the dinner at 5 Mill evaluation and that's not like maybe they didn't do that but that's not something that doesn't happen they do pre-sales and they sell a lot of Supply through like sniping so um just to kind of be careful

on that then I don't get uni chain I don't get the value prop is it it's just a separate [Music] L2 does it Source liquidity from elsewhere I know they're supposed to do some intense stuff but to me it like if you're just do you you don't get the value prop for who who who is uni uni swap itself I I want to buy a token okay you are saying Unis swap could potentially be interesting to buy that's not what I said I think their activity on the Chain I don't I haven't done any like valuation analysis I don't I don't know if it makes sense it's it's

expensive it's a multi-billion dollar token I know we don't like tvl so Lord forgive me for doing this but I mean brother it has 9 mil tvl it launched a week ago we've seen a lot of takes flying on the timeline of uni swap was or uni chain was a complete failure I'm like it's been [ __ ] seven days my my question I have a question here Dan do you think that it can be successful because people will move their assets there or because of what they're trying to do like from an interop perspective of just like you'll make a trade on base and it'll route through uni I think it's no I I think it's a strong brand everybody knows Unis swap with a mobile app they have a wallet that so they have

distribution and strong brand and I think they have good Tech with V4 that can do unique things obviously this is on many chains as well um but if I was them I'd be like obviously really pointing the Canon at my own chain and um because of those things and again with like meem points being so hot and what pure markets is doing it seems like an interesting landing spot um I'm not like super convicted in this again I think it's it's sana's the ball is in Solana's Court like they someone has to come take it out of it at this point from my view uh as specifically on like the mcoin front there's great defi apps across the ecosystem across the industry um so that's yeah it's really just the fact that distribution good brand good Tech and they get to inherit

all of everything based it they just L get to pick that up put it on their chain right they can just start ripping the exact same setup with their sequencer crank the gas limit and they're good to go what's up guys um welcome back to zerox research today I'm joined by Antonio from dydx thanks for coming on Antonio hey thanks so much for having me one thing you mentioned is that I mean dydx is an OG protocol in the space seven years um where do you where do you see defi standing um right now because we've had a lot of changes recently so I think I saw a tweet earlier today that defi spot volume just eclipsed 20% of all crypto trading volume which is a pretty exciting Mark uh so obviously it's something that has

grown a lot in the past few years that's been led by a lot of OG projects like dydx like a Unis swap a few others there but a lot of newer entrance as well like a radium on the spot side obviously now hyper liquid on the per side as well and it's great to see a lot of competition in the space I think that's really excellent for users um but really we still have a long way to go and again I really try to take a long-term approach to crypto generally and especially dydx and if we zoom out and think about hey what's the goal here it's not that 20% it's really getting up to wow actually defi is the primary way that crypto is traded and maybe not even crypto maybe maybe beyond that and we're getting

there there's still a lot of things that we have to do from the user experience side from really creating novel product experiences because I think again that's really what it's all about if you look at everything that has been really successful in web 3 generally so far it's something that you fundamentally couldn't do on centralized technology um if you look at like a pump fun or an nft or a Unis swap they all have features where hey you just can't do these things you can't just click a button and add a coin to a centralized exchange you CL can't click once and become a market maker and that's really unique to defi so we need to double down on those things that have been working well but at the same time really push the envelope on what's possible with product

experience in Defi and when will we actually get to that inflection point of 50% or more and defi is the primary way crypto is traded I think it'll still be a little while um just because there is still a decent amount to go with the technology especially with the product Innovation and the centralized players are pretty entrenched but clearly this is the way things are going and I'm I'm really excited to be a part of it perfect and this is actually relates to um so spot markets have been 20% but uh derivatives dexes have haven't really been able to compete with Sexes do you see this changing yeah so I think all derivatives now are about 5% or so so it's a decent amount less than spot but that's pretty

much how it's always been with the evolution of a spot exchange versus a derivatives exchange and even why a dydx was created after a lot of the you know very first OG um spot decentralized exchanges so a decentralized derivatives exchange is something that's pretty complicated both from a technology perspective and if you look at all of the you know biggest decentralized derivative platforms right now so like us like a hyper liquid a couple others there that are noteworthy um but all of us are really pushing what's possible on the technology side under the hood so you know now we have the dydx chain under the hood hyper liquid has their own chain with you know novel technology as well um and the reason for that is

because these systems have to be incredibly performant so right now on the ydx chain it does on the order of several thousand order places per second um so it's actually one of the most performant blockchains period and we don't even talk about that that much right because it's just designed to serve the product needs that this one product has um but it it's something that is pretty complicated so that's an aspect of it I think the second aspect of it is on the product side really derivatives products even in defi all kind of look the same so far and that's really what I'm excited about taking a stab at changing so we've started to do that with things like instant Market listings with things like megga volt um could be different types of uis could be maybe a fundamentally different type of

exchange eventually if you have an exchange where there's thousands tens of thousands maybe even millions of things that are listed versus a centralized exchange that has hundreds we're not there yet but we will be eventually and then I think the final thing that has slow down the adoption of derivatives generally is it's just a pretty sophisticated type of market so so generally the adopters of these types of products really Demands a high amount of sophistication in the product and it just takes a little bit longer for those products to mature but I really think they have started to in the past year or so again with us and in hyper liquid doing some pretty significant volume now having really significant liquidity compared to centralized exchanges and

starting to have new offerings that you can't find on centralized exchanges there are real reasons to use dexes now talking about Good Tech I want to get the take on Kaio and we have to talk about Kaio I know some people might not want to talk about Kao but we have to talk about Kao so what do we I I'll actually do like a little intro so I um I went on GitHub yesterday they have uh and they have like a Kido contract and a Stak Kao contract and the stake Kao contract has a transfer vesting rewards function which could mean two things a it could mean like Epoch based um staking rewards B it could be that

people that we have to wait like a month to get our full rewards for Kao token um they also have a v they used to have a ve Kaio I think now it's called Stak Kao um I'm seeing ridiculous numbers on Twitter and I know like you should never look into those and be like yeah this is going to be it but they could be giving people seafront properties what do we I guess I I want what does that mean here I'll pull up some numbers this will be great Riley's gonna be really happy because I think I can't think of anybody else that R so he's gonna get

some views but he cooks with these uh token drop analyses to be honest Mr slop I love the screenshots yeah good pictures good color choices it does a lot for the brain it does all right so this is sp Riley um Yap valuation this is at 20% FTV is at 500 mil Yap value is $58 I don't think 500 mil FTV is unreasonable by the way for a launch for Kao I don't think it's unreasonable I think they raised at 90 to 100 from dragonfly um I don't think a 5x on that is crazy 20% air drop seems fair because

they're from based on what they moved to base it was 33% of the token Supply was moved to move was moved to base um I assume they'll drop a portion to the nfds let's say 8% 10% 20 to 25% might go to yappers um also we got to think surely they do seasons right the numbers on this are so big that it's like I don't know if it if I was sitting in the seat I'd probably rip Seasons here and so I was looking through their docs and on the kaido section of their docks like the actual token section there's uh three interesting bullet points where it's around driving Market forces so kaido holders actively participate in

shaping the network by influencing the distribution of attention within the AI powered infoi ecosystem I a powered infoi ecos that's that's some slop right there um okay hold on there's two there's two more things there's two more things then there's a network currency which I thought that was kind of interesting because they call it a medium of exchange within the kaido ecosystem so that kind of gets the brain really like all right so who's paying what for what who's paying who for what um and then the last piece is governance so one actually interesting piece in the governance section was uh that you basically get to vote on the changes to the algorithm which is pretty

interesting so their their point is this kind of uh allows the network to evolve with alignment to its community's interest which I thought is interesting is that the consumer product though or for the yaps product like I don't think you should let any like the regular Joe's who have a few Kido tokens to influence the consumer product and by consumer product I mean the research product that they have by which is fantastic by the way second block Works research um I don't know if that's good enough um that's that's great thank you um yeah I don't know I'm I'm just really curious like okay so again when you run the numbers on this I think Riley's thing was like 60 bucks a app roughly

like the top 500 people are getting significant paydays and because of that it's like all right how do you I don't know I guess I'm hyper aware of the fact that there is going to be some token structure here they're going to they're trying trying to do something with the token it seems like a team that wants to experiment and they're willing to do that they have a very AI forward product it's Cutting Edge in many other places I think they're going to take that same logic to the Token side and I I really I want to try to speculate on what they're going to do I want to know if anyone's got any good ideas again knowing it's a medium of exchange who's paying who For What and that there's some sort of like I'm driving Market forces piece yeah go go I think it's

they launched their own Marketplace for the yaps for the Yap what do you mean like the whole voting side of okay right yes the whole voting side of it explain that though people probably aren't aware of what that means okay well basically if you saw it on Twitter there were people who were paying to be futured on a kaido dashboard you need to receive a certain amount of votes and it's based on like the broading vote schedule the broad voting ecosystem and it's like number one two and three get voted in to have Dash reps this has led to projects paying voters to vote for them and I think the going price is like a dollar and a half

two dollars per vote um so projects would pay yappers for yaps feels ridiculous to say this but and they would vote for the dashboards to be put up so I imagine kaido wants to take this inhouse collect the 10% fee 5 10% fee um I guess they could do some form of buyback or they could give rewards to users like with to stakers I don't know dude to be honest with you I watched like 10 to 15 chats this morning try and because everybody looks at this and they say what the [ __ ] $90 is too much but it's not unrealistic like re 25% the 600 mil is not

unrealistic I watch chats look at this and say you know what kaito might actually a great product let's think of what other products they could be launching underneath it and at the end of the day it's like I don't know if there like I don't really get I get their consumer the research product I don't really get the the graph and the AI side that they're trying to sell like the Yap side it doesn't make a lot of sense yeah I was going to say I saw some interesting takes from like the crypto marketing side of things from Emily Li specifically who mentioned um just this idea around like it if you were a project looking to get reach and influence on socials like it's great that kaido has this nice dashboard of

people who get the most reach in particular niches um and you know exactly like who you might want to do a deal with or pay to promote your product to Their audience um so from that angle I see a very clear like product line from a marketing perspective for any project in this space that's looking to get get reach um whether or not that's like in the token or in Yap like I mean who cares about that but fundamentally it's like you know they're going to be willing to pay a certain amount and kaido can take a portion of that and that's going to be revenues yeah I would totally agree with that I mean I think the the market on attention is probably one of the most valuable in the world you know like everyone has limited time you can't buy more time what you give your time to

matters a lot you can attribute a lot of value to that like if you look at like some of the deals like influencers have like outside of crypto and stuff I mean these these are like you know huge massive deals so it's not like farfetch to attribute some sort of monetary aspect to attention especially at the beginning episode we're talking about like what's the next like narrative or whatever for salana or like where does it go if you can Corner the market on attention and actually add a like a financial mechanism there to get people to talk about things we know that um or at least I believe that like price drives narrative and narrative drives price and so if you have like uh control over the second half of that that's that's pretty powerful um and like good for them for experiment experimenting

with the token as well like there's not too many like actual companies that have tokens uh so like that's actually just great to see in general love that take love that take a lot um and I think actually the the what you said about price versus narrative and who's driving what is super uh sentient right now because meme coins are going down and now everybody hates them and three months ago they were going up and everybody loved them yeah um also Arkham is probably the closis comparison just given consumer product with a token super low bar but uh they're both kind of in that like edge of the space currently trading at a 700 million fdv and like two months ago that was three

times higher um so yeah I agree with you bachio that like you know the $600 million num is seems sort of in the layup category I don't want to start counting the chickens here but um I don't know it's it's definitely like it's it's it's within play it's within reach and I think because the AI heavy nature of kaido I think it honestly it's it's a really exciting opportunity and then last piece here is uh I'm gonna steal this tweet from Mike bito here but he mentioned that you know there's never there's probably never a better moment actually to launch a token than during the death of this huge mem coin narrative um I think you can kind of capture all of the attention on you and I think this is actually a huge win for

base getting this token to land on them kaido you know is is one of the hottest apps of the cycle I think in my mind and um having them build on top of you is a big win for any ecosystem yeah I agree with you I think and this also kind of answers my question from before where the [ __ ] do we go from here like if there's nothing on salana Bas base is probably the clearest answer like if there has to be another ecosystem that really really blows up it'll be Bas um with regard to what else can be done with Kido I think payments is a dirty business but Twitter to payments they could actually pull off like I feel like everybody's tried to pull that off but they have

everybody's link Twitter to e address so that's something that they could work with they could just sell that data to the feds which would make them a lot of money um and last up I guess the attention thing Ian you know what I'm going to disagree with you on the attention thing I think that gets compressed very quickly um and it loses it like I agree with you on the general premise and I think it's very exciting if they try to build something on that it's just kind of a very delicate situation because one great thing about crypto is that the financial aspects make everybody really try hard to do new

stuff and like we're constantly always a bit on the frontier one bad thing is that because of the financial aspects everything gets compressed really bad like mem coins could have been really really cool um and three months ago when the price was going up they were really really cool but then we like we turn it into Financial genocide really really quickly anytime we can and it goes down sou so that's my only like G with it I agree though the the Dynamics could be cool and it's just like on that end fact that they managed to build out crypto AI is I think um I think that's totally fair push back I would I would counter that as well it's saying like people

already get checks to tweet from Twitter itself so like clearly like you know there's monetary value in engaging content uh and like yeah like there's definitely like a financial engineering aspect that Kaio has to get right in terms of like striking the right balance because I can totally see a world where that gets compressed super quickly you know in a world where like everyone just like you know uh you know like sells their aird drop on day one because it's like just a ridiculous amount of money that they feel like they that like zero cost of capital uh you were literally tweeting and you got money like to the tune of like you know maybe like millions of dollars which is actually you know extraordinary but um I think you can build like a the right product around that for sure um where you it to the point that you said

on like you can have the opportunity to like tweak the algorithm to essentially like you know reward specific type of content so like actual slop doesn't get rewarded like should like x uh like AI xbt be getting like like you know uh it's it's literally like a like a chat bot is about to get like you know millions of dollars of Kido which is uh objectively absurd um does it or is it really cool could be the future it can be both I mean I think it is both but like you know if you if you try to explain that to anyone in outside of crypto it's like it's just ridiculous um but it's happening so I think like if yeah it's like maybe it's like just a

financial engineering aspect they have to get right about like CU monetizing attention is a very tricky game uh that obviously people will want to game so like maybe it's like a product uh project wants to get like a leaderboard and they want to incentivize the best like educational content around their uh project like that's great that I think that could work really well it's definitely going to take some refining um but like there's also no like comp here so uh you know it's a there's no ceiling there's also no flooor I like your points there Ian I I'll try them in as well bu but I think like if you look to like web 2 influencers and like Beyond just the crypto sphere like you

could see this as a rep like a platform as a replacement for like ad agencies Etc where you know they might have to like tweak how the actual dollars get divvied up um you know so like you said like so that just absolute garbage just doesn't get rewarded um stupidly but either either way like we you know there are games constantly in like the web 2 kind of content space and and those influencers like they compress that stuff really hard and just like really quickly jump on like the next Trend and they're constantly getting paid for it by like you know whoever's got fresh money for like the next hot ad um and I think you could look at this the same way where like there you know there's always new teams building there's always new projects they always want reach they want people to look at their thing try

their app or like buy their token whatever um and there's always going to be people who are like yapping on Twitter um so this will be this could be a lens to do that um maybe in with like some kind of weird decentralized rails and you know payment platform to to support that yeah I do agree it'll be I think anytime you can kind of democ I don't like the word democratize but I'm going to use it you can democratize like um speaking about a project because like influences get paid a lot um for stuff that they don't necessarily even really do properly and I think like there are a lot of people out there that

are putting out good research and if they can just get paid a little bit I think that's fine um on the other hand I also think this could be fantastic their algorithm is actually quite good like you don't just get you get rewarded for some slot like dud you copy paste my exact tweets and get rewarded for it they all I'm using my tokens to yeah now that I know I can tweet vote to tweet the algorithm you're in trouble buddy yeah Gaming's always going to happen though right like as long as there's a system in place it's going to get gamed and like again if you look at the web 2 compliment to this it's like people just like run their YouTube videos on like random web pages and and like rack up views and then they sell that to ad agencies like yeah we got

millions of views and it's like all garbage like crawler Bots that are aren't aren't doing anything the thing I can't wrap my head around is how they're going to like package this because all right they've created this leaderboard everybody's you know the address they've implemented and their Twitter handle is linked in a database that they keep on base anybody can access that given the nature of a blockchain and so like all right if you're going to do this thing where I think it was in you know earlier mentioned like Market marketing CMOS love that we have this list of people that can communicate messages well um like why would I go through kaido to use this when I could just go pull this database uh like and literally just look at it and then go contact that person because I know their Twitter Twitter handle so that's the part that I haven't

been able to like kind of like wrap my head around is how do you like keep this within the bounds you can say this about all smart contracts like why would I pay somebody using blockchain if I can just send it to their venmo it's like I get what you mean but it's like why would you use the platform you don't have to it's like I assume it'll have to be verifiable stuff that's why I'm like you want to be able to lock up um show some form of proof and that's like going to just happen on the platform versus like what's happening right now that's an upside for consumers as well that that you can sell right because now you can get you know actual disclosures because their wallets are linked to this this platform and it's not just like well anam's probably Shilling this

ticker but I have no way to know like maybe he got paid or maybe he didn't there's no way to know I like that yeah that's pretty interesting um are we done do we have anything else we want to do Ian is there anything that you wanted to cover and that I didn't cover we kind of just shot Off The Hip today that it's fun um I can give it like a Shameless plug yeah we're gonna do that we're gonna do that one sec do you want to talk about your validator I think that's kind of interesting yeah sure Ian do you want to talk about your validator I think that's kind of interesting yeah yeah absolutely so uh we recently launched a uh validator in partnership with first set um on salana

so like one of the the newer validators to the network um really excited kind of be here for the next to like generation of their like economics that are evolving kind of what we talked about earlier um and then also there's going to be this pretty interesting uh Syd around like duration based staking yield so like if you stake for longer your yield is actually going to be different so like now we're actually going to have like uh like yield curves on chain which is like pretty cool and I think you can build a lot of interesting like def5 products around those uh so quite excited for that and we'll also be announcing some some valids on some other networks in the coming months um so definitely stay tuned on those but

thanks so much for the tea up there well I'm curious why' you pick salana first well I think they're starting to have like some some runaway uh tendencies in terms of you know when we think about like where we should be spending our time just because like we're really lean team um we going to look at like who has distribution who has um like the right Tech and like he has like the right like unit economics as well like son is like only going to get faster and cheaper and so I think you kind of made a point about this earlier Dan about like how like we never really saw this play out until now about like how fast cheap chains can actually make a lot more money than these uh you

know more distributed ones like a theum have like a lot more like solo stakers and validators on the network but obviously there's some trade-offs there so that's why we pick that and we also think there's a really um quickly evolving like def5 community over there um ultimately blockchains are asset ledgers and people want to use these things to trade and there's no better example of what chain is being used to trade right now other than salana uh we've got some really interesting charts in this paper that we'll be putting out in the coming weeks but one of the stunning things I think is the evolution of TV across like categories from ethereum versus salana uh heavily skewed

on salana towards trading um like you're not counting lsts roughly 75% of the tvl on salana is within dex's or trading platforms as opposed to roughly like 25 per ethereum um and so that's a that's a great thing for us to see and we're we're pretty bullish on high performance networks for this exact same reason yeah you also see that same stat play out in the application Revenue charts right um if you look salana is leading there as well and the driver of that is is many of these trading apps you know earlier we talked about how some of these have pretty high fees so it's really no surprise um and when you're trading lottery tickets I think most Traders just don't really care about a 1% fee for better for worse yeah or if you're trading

legitimate assets as well time matters if you uh are like I'm curious how you think about other high performance networks right like s and apos again are kind of at that two-year Mark where things start to get pretty interesting curious you have any opinions there um and it's kind of same thing with these next gen chains that have either just launched or are launching um Danny were you about to say something yeah I was gonna add to Dan's question here um just just curious like the selection of salana was there like a second choice that you passed upon and if that falls into the categories that he just mentioned like you know run with it no I wouldn't say there was a a second choice really it just kind of it made sense for a lot of different reason

reasons and also some existing research that we already have um but in terms of like other trains that we're looking at um actually pretty optimistic on manad I think a lot of people are pretty fatigued around the idea of these people call them like VC coins and that's that's totally fair right like this is a project that's raised a a lot of money uh in several rounds um but I think the overall reason people are below on Mega eth will probably be similar to why people will be uh happy with like manad because I think it's just like an interesting idea of like what if you just took ethereum and cranked it up and made it extremely fast um obviously it's going to be like

really hard to attract liquidity uh when you're just when you are competing with like other evm chains I think that's going to be pretty hard but I think there's some pretty interesting like thought leadership over there uh specifically kind of coming from like the meid it's like Alex Watts from like Fast Lane um he has some great takes and he understands um the evm really well but he also understands the svm really well and I think salana is going to kind of need a sparring partner and there's not too many people that really know the limitations of the svm as well as well as he seems to um that I think will also matter quite a lot in you know in the future when we expect change just by default to be extremely cheap extremely fast um but

I mean the the hard part is like them building up like distribution and liquidity from day one so we'll see what happens over there but that's a network that we're pretty optimistic on um but yeah I completely agree on Monet I think a lot of people are under over correcting on the VC side very very heavily um at the end of the day like to build something from the ground up the way that monad had like a lot of people [ __ ] on monad um because their test net has taken quite a while but these guys are like doing both hardware and software side changes to the evm to like really really Crank It Up um and I think there's like I love Mega E I think I don't know if I love Mega I think it's cool what they're

doing like both on the both on the um with their like Community raises as well as like what they're building I think it's very interesting Mega Mafia is cool but they are taking some pretty heavy tradeoffs um like one giant sequencer to make the whole thing work and like some light nodes around it Keon seemed at least to me relatively opinionated on decentralization um maybe not like as opinionated on e as etherium people but he seemed pretty serious about it I think like trying to crank up the evm by building it both like on the software side and the hardware side without taking like a bunch of

decentralization trust assumptions it's tough um so I'm excited for them liquidity I don't know about liquidity and like bar chain has all the liquidity in the world and I mean to be fair it has only been two weeks so we'll see but like liquidity kind of comes naturally if you have VCS because they have to like they're incentivized to see it succeed so they'll work to bring in tvl um apps is the big one and I think it's going to be really really hard like we saw with bar chain as well even though it's evm it's tough to coordinate with 50 60 teams to make them all launch day one day two day three it takes time

so we'll have to see um if they're going to be able to launch day one or if we're gonna have to wait the worst fate is people bridge over and they're like what the [ __ ] is there to do and they bridge out and then you got to wait another two months for the narrative to come back to you um yeah I I think like yeah liquid is definely an important part but um it's like also like a means to an end not like an end itself like you need the liquidity to get other things going you need the liquidity for like the apps and the apps to make revenue and then like there's just kind of like you know spillover effects to the rest of the you know Network economy um so I mean we we'll see what happens with with bear chain um I mean obviously yeah to your

point like they have tons of liquidity uh so we'll see you know how that plays out and that'll probably take several years uh same with like any these chains that like actually matter it's like narrative is a course shortlived but um like you know we'll see maybe Ys will help it actually is interesting that one point you mentioned bachio of like bridging to an empty chain uh it's it's it's miserable I remember doing that with Aptos I guess two years ago now and I don't know you trade two memes and then find the r rug and then you have nothing left uh did the same thing with abstract I mean you got to do it you got it's like a it's a right of passage to come over there Bridge one and know

you're getting smoked um I forgot about the abdome rug the abdome baby uh didn't bring it up for months now it's the first time I've heard of it in maybe like eight months you haven't forgotten that's crazy I know that's a scar on my back I'll never forget and yet here we are still doing it again it's For the Love of the Game um so yeah it's it's interesting to see like that is such a common known piece of the equation of like launching with nothing is a painful experience and we still see it pretty often um so yeah I agree that your point about like the mega Mafia thing makes a ton of sense and and glad that they're actually trying to iterate and change that it's almost a cold start problem right you have no ecosystem you have to build something you know who kind of

revolutionized that Scott Lewis and Kanto they won you have your own deck your own lending platform like the basic basic fundamentals and then bar chain kind of took it a bit further um they have they also launch the same thing like burps beex bar swap now barand whatever um and now we have every single chain realizing that nobody wants to bridge you over to an empty chain so they need to launch products on yeah the the benefit you get with something like monad like you know people get mad about being VC backed and they raise so much money but the benefit they have is that they've been able to do like accelerators and monad Madness and all these campaigns to basically like convince teams to come over by offering them you know if it's if it's tokens if

it's dollars whatever um and being VC backed having you know sort of maybe a cohort of of VCS or advisers who can also support those teams like that's that's a clear benefit that they they they can give to their Community pachu if you can only hold one token from now until the middle of the Year July 1 hyper liquid hyper liquid or Bitcoin except hyper liquid except hyper liquid Bitcoin okay I'm considering selling more of my soul but I don't know if I will like I feel like taking a very drastic decision following a massive massively like kind of like a Black Swan event so I haven't

done it yet I have sold a decent position a decent side of my position in soul but I'm considering removing it going forward as well but I think I think the big question is exactly what we're talking about right like are these it seems now that it's like very much in order to play in the game today you need like a fast High throughput chain and we're seeing like all the new launches like we just talked about Mega Eon that's exactly what they're doing um and so like the question is like if you're a soul holder today it's like does you know does detention does liquidity does stuff move over there there's no way to know right they're not even live yet but I think that's kind of the question everyone has in their mind one good thing about crypto is that nothing ever prices down things tend to

just price up like when you do a comp well things go down a lot but what I'm trying to say here is I was going to say can we clip that section right there no no no no I'll explain what I mean and then you can call me an idiot if I'm actually wrong um think of no one's ever like oh um ethereum should like come down to 300 bill or whatever Solana is that people are like oh Solana should go up to like whatever 600 Bill and you should come down to there do you get what I'm trying to say like no people want to price things up people don't want to price things down um so I think like whatever launches it'll just have like so might lose some attention but no one's going to be like oh Mona does the same thing at BIR Bill why would I ever

buy Solana no it'll be like monad needs to go to 150 um if that makes sense then yeah that makes sense I think it's also like if like you fud the thing that you're comping to you're kind of limiting your upside when you're comping so I think that's why people that was happening a lot with like Soul E I think like we saw that this cycle like the it got like pretty bad I think people kind of took their foot off the gas a bit because they started to realize kind of what was going on there um it's like better to actually have two large assets yeah it's also they started launching l2s on Solana as well so I think that also kind

of made them relax a bit like I think the Solana side also realizes that some apps need their own block space and there's nothing wrong with that like what is it Zeta chain Zeta has one yeah Zeta markets drift drift needs one as well like if you're actually going to be a good pers product you need to be on in your own block space no worries at all you can just keep tring that's literally the only thing that you need um and I know that Solana scales very very well we've seen that but you kind of want your own space for that so I think we'll see grass they call themselves Network extension but it's a layer to roll up

like for what it's worth the drift team would would push back on that claim they can push back however much they want I've used drift I've used other per se as unnamed I believe that the ones that are on their own chain are better than the ones on yeah I get it could be I mean that could just be the limitations of today as well right I mean who knows if Sal then like would you still need maybe what are the what's the per deck building on uh Mega eth uh there's a bunch Valhalla is the one right and like you know they have the same intent right and maybe Mega eth is better infrastructure for this we

don't know yet but um I don't know I I I'm it's too early to to call it on that in my opinion but hyper I'm not saying hyper is not a great product it's a better it's the best perpose product today I'm just saying that one point is like yeah we're still battling with some broken Tech very good the argument here is that what if salana scales a THX but I assume if salana scales a THX it's going to be more and more dog [ __ ] launching on salana meaning that it's realistically only scaled 2x there's more volume on the trade like people I don't know I know the argument is that you want to be close to the asset issues but I think you can just have one single Bridge like a deposit contract and it would still work like there's no need to just you

can borrow on the collateral on the Solana site on Camino ship that into drift and it would still work the memes will continue until people stop playing the game to just on the first piece right like it can be worthless to most people and people that are exhausted of it and people that never liked it in the first place but they will stop being issued when people stop trading them and if that doesn't happen then they are useful to some cohort of people so that's on the first piece and the second piece yeah I don't totally disagree I mean I think it's just a good question of um Atomic composability right do you want do you need one transaction in between the thing you're trying to do and where you are today um there's

actually pretty cool stuff in the Avalanche ecosystem that is abstracting that you can basically you can execute a swap in one transaction from one uh chain to another now that's that's nice to see what did I say at the start of the Pod that you don't like Avalanche she doesn't want to go to Avalanche no Avalanche talk man yeah I me I'm just going to agree with Dan like I think it's just we're we're looking at what the technical limitations are today and we're saying that like this is how it's always going to be and like maybe it will and maybe it won't like we just don't know if we get a massive technical Improvement that enables people to do per texes at massive scale just like all on one you know single state machine then there you have it but if we don't then we don't

also two things have now happened in the time we started recording that I feel like are relevant to the conversation one the Argentinian Prime Minister President I'm not sure what his official title is has retweeted a post about how to buy the coin uh so this is taking stranger turns than we can imagine uh I guess for full context he originally endorsed it then deleted the tweet and then got sued for something around the neighborhood of fraud or manipulation and then now he's again retweeted a post about how to buy the token it's up 100% over like the last hour and one there that he also said that he's going to

um arrest or like probe into whoever launched it before he retweeted it so yesterday he spent time saying we're like launching an investigation into this entire ordeal so now he's back to endorsing it I'm I'm incredibly confused I think he's hacked probably yeah that's probably the default position and then secondly in the terms of uh presidential coins here uh this is a like one of those solid Intel tweets you got to always rip these ones with a grain of salt but says Trump website shows airdrop claim page for users who bought Trump products before February 15 I I really don't know what that means but what it sounds Trump watches you're

getting a fat airdrop no it's three Trump per buy what is one Trump 20 25 like 20 bucks free Trump for what per buy well they have a lot of products so I don't know per buy wouldn't even make sense I think it's like per email that you bought with so if you bought something on the Trump website you're getting airdrop Trump tokens is that what it is yeah 60 bucks you get the CL it's pretty good dude does he have anything lower than 60 bucks no probably not I don't think so how much was that watch the watch was like hundreds if not maybe

thousand we live in a [ __ ] up timeline so you're getting like a little like after Thea coupon code basically for your purchase actually I read a tweet yesterday that has nothing to do with crypto but I thought was pretty interesting context let me pull this up guys I think we're done no I think this is this is a good ending point this is a good end think we're done one more fun fact one more fun fact it was a tweet I won't read the whole thing it's pretty long but is it talking about you know America has never never seemed crazier than now and it goes into talking about this as like imagine that you're an American parent in 1963 you're the veteran of World War II your wife has never worked and you're just the plain old average American family and then

five or six years from then basically your son goes to college his hair grows out to the length of a girl he's smoking weed which is like only something that happened in the ghettos and he's listening to crazy music and he's got like a Viet Kong flag in his room dorm room and your daughter's now in college and she's living in co-ed dorms etc etc like the world has to change and um you you probably would be this [ __ ] like crazy thing of like how [ __ ] up the world has become and that is I don't know it's kind of what it feels like to me right now and I thought that was pretty interesting perspective of like honestly change is just this weird painful experience no matter where when how why there's like just people are [ __ ] up and [ __ ] up things always

happen it used to just be fun dog coins and then presidents of the Free World decided that they were G to burn us all down it's been a pleasure pagio it was great seeing like your like little emotes you were I don't know if anyone who's watching saw that he'd do like thumbs up he'd essentially just like react do the hand if he had a question very polite always go to always got to watch the pods not just listen to them you know you got to get the full experience and if you watch only watch pacha's like Square because there's just there's a lot happening there thank you for on and I appreciate it this was kind of a interesting part I think we haven't

had this group in a well we haven't had you ever but I think you got kind of unlucky in that Daniel Smith hasn't spoken in weeks so he wanted to speak a lot but he also got kind of lucky because I think this is like the top podcast crew is me Danny and Dan Smith so but more importantly I appreciate you coming on and you're don't look like a guy who's really into reaking kind kind of crazy to me that you're really into restake we we can get into reaking physiy next next pod go check out kyo's research they got a fantastic Twitter and's a good friend of mine 10 out of 10 recommend make sure to St with them on salana and yes thanks

for coming on [Music]