Shared Security for AVS Explained | Abhishek Kumar (CEO at Catalysis)

Transcript

you broke down everything the whole stack and the only thing that was remaining was Economic Security from a base chain and that's the core concept sh security that hey you can experiment on all levels be the consensus layer execution layer and application layer and that's what avss at catalysis we are building an abstraction layer for sh security protocols to make it easier for AVS or actively realtive services to scale and Thrive and get Economic Security from multiple resing calls this was the the most detailed discussion that I had in a long [Music] time I'm here with abishek Kumar he's

co-founder at catalysis catalysis is an exraction there for shared security protocols basically it allows avss to utilize many different reaking protocols for the security effectively creating well an abstraction layer between abss and reaking protocols we're going to get into all of that here understanding how it works why it's necessary and what are the benefits for abs is I have a thanks for joining me thank you so much Sebastian for inviting me to this this discussion I'm really excited to share what we building and uh it's always been amazing talking to and you know hope to have a nice conversation here thanks so much yeah well I'm really looking forward to getting getting into the depths of of catalysis uh understanding

you know why it's useful But first you know maybe like looking at the ABS landscape and also the reaking landscape can you kind of give us an overview of what that looks like today and how it's changed over the last year uh you know Ian Lair obviously like went main net this year a lot of other reaking protocols like symbiotic uh Carrick and and also in the Bitcoin space have been coming up online so what's your view of like the Arc of reaking uh over the last year yeah amazing I think that's a uh fantastic point to start the conversation with right like what's the um the reaking market look like today and like six months back or 12 months back right um I'll would start by saying

that you know we are still in the early Innings of the entire you know restake insured security um Market um 6 months back there were just air and air launches main net and there Al the other reing protocols like symbi K you know that followed suit um and there other resing protocols on babyon side like sath pel and on Salon side we have Cheeto and everyone so all the resing protocols are coming up new features and they're going to launch so definitely uh we see today that there are like more than 10 reaking protocols across different chains be it ethereum salana uh Babylon and uh and tia so milk is also launching

what the ti is taking so that's that's another one and my thesis is that we will have ringing protocols on all chains in the uh in the coming future so that's definitely on the ringing protocol side as for the AVS is you know there's have been huge huge demand or like changes in how people have buil abss and the number of ab are coming up right so I think uh couple of months back we just used to talk about like Grange or like predicate and you know like e orle and couple of these avas today but now that kind of um ecosystem map of avas has increased right so we now have like 2025 EV live on igen lir and couple of new Ab that are being launched with symbiotic and K has it own ecosystem partners and and so on so um

definitely I see that there's like hundreds of avss that are still in development we have talked to a majority of them um I know yesterday n from uh from I you know tweeted that there's like he's tracking or the team is tracking at least 600 AVS that are in development which is a huge number I would say I so we released a blog post a couple of you know weeks back about our vision of a th000 avss and um I thought it'd be you know it be like 12 months since we we'll have that that Vision will be reached but it seems like it's much much sooner so definitely there's a lot of changes in there uh in the AVS space and particularly because the process of building AVS has become much more

simpler with you know catalis and trying to make it much more much more simpler with their other uh you know companies or projects trying to do the same uh essentially making the on the entire process of onboarding and building a much much smoother and simpler and and faster and that has I think created a lot of um you know demand and kind of lot of uh people and teams are really understanding what shared Securities and what the implications are and and you know are looking to believe your so so yeah I'm really bullish on on the stages so far 6 months back 25 avss today we have like 100 avss and and still counting so uh the next year is going to be the AVS year uh from from my perspective maybe just taking a step

back here so people understand like the different ways that we can build applications so obviously there's the app chain route which is you know go out and build your own app chain get a validator set have sovereignty over your entire stack and then the other end of that I guess there would be you know having a building a rollup right or um or a layer two uh that depends on the security of ethereum or some underlying chain where does an AVS sit on the on the sovereignty Spectrum um with regards to these two uh these two opposing ways of building an application yeah that's that's a great

question so I think um there definitely one thing about in know building an app chain or like application specific chain or like a separate L1 or you can build the same application or uh we call the restake rollup concept which is you know you're building a rollup that inherits or like doesn't inher like complete Security from etherum but also you know that reuses some validators from etherum set um and kind of use reaking for that uh both approaches are are great but it's just about the ease of descen delation and the ease of like building something which rest makes it much much easier I think your question is about sovereignty um to that I think definitely app

chains um are more Sovereign in the sense that they have like they own their own netor Dynamics um and things like that but it's it's it's essentially harder to bootstrap right uh that's that's the tra off like we're making uh we're trading sovereignty with the the time to go to market Mark right uh in terms of like um you using like building an rollup or L2 using shared security or using while the process of res taking um makes you less you know dependent on on your sovereignty so you actually lose a little bit of sovereignty to faster go to market so you can decentralize better

boot St faster get the customers in um May the transaction happen and then you can you know do you know what whatever you want later so definitely on on that front there's a trade-off between kind of scalability decentralization time to Market and um and the sovereignty part so which is something um really depends on the teams that are building those those applications some teams might really want sovereignty so they would probably want to choose like hey we' build an app chain app chain or we'll have our own chain and things like that but again that makes it harder for you you can go that Tri if you if that that makes sense for a business or you can you just you know build a restake roll up using something like it alysis in uh in in much less time and then you can go

to market faster so that that would be my my view on that yeah there there was this great uh diagram that um I I saw on one of your blog posts and actually I saw this diagram in one of Shir Ram's talks um I believe in like Salt Lake or something a couple of couple of months back and it it basically has you know Bitcoin ethereum rollups and I play and Bitcoin you have you have it so security consensus execution application all in one stack and then ethereum allows you to have multiple applications on top of a a monolithic execution consensus and security layer and then if you go to the next uh in the next pane you have rollups where you have multiple

applications and then multiple execution layers on the same consensus and security and then reaking or in this case iing there but reaking broadly allows you to have multip multiple applications built upon multiple execution layers that may use different consensus mechanisms on the same shared security and I thought this was such a great you know people should go to the to this blog post I'll link to it in the show notes this is such a great way to see that progress uh from very monolithic sort of Bitcoin one single stack one application all the way down to security to you know IG lay where one single uh Security Source can secure multiple consensus

uh Al um engines algorithms U systems which themselves secure uh bring consensus to execution environments which themselves uh execute application state so uh that that's really I think a really great way to think about reaking and I wonder so where does uh catalysis sit in um in that stack yeah you bring a perfectly beautiful Point here right like um I would recommend all our audience to really watch that talk by shiram I think it was uh the standard the Stanford blockchain conference 2024 um that talk where he talks about like

strong cryptoeconomic security for like arbitrary validation tasks so yeah I think to give some more context on on what that really means U building on what you said uh sebb uh is that Bitcoin there of Bitcoin let's say any kind of like blockchain or you know decentralized consensus engines could be divided into in four different Stacks right the first is the application layer right that is where that's consumer facing where applications with different kind of features could be built and then that applications actually run on the execution layer so that's the second layer on from the top uh that executes that kind of provides the environment for application to run on and then we have the consensus mechanic that's like core part of decentralized systems where

like this executions kind of very ified with the consensus among uh different notes and then finally the security is inherited from a base layer and for that let's say that's the Bitcoin so we have the four layers application execution consensus Security in Bitcoin we have like this is monolithic kind of design in ethereum what we had was you know we broke down the first part that is we have like you could have programmability so you could have build multiple types of applications on the on on the execution layer that is uh on the evf right so we had like smart contract in ation people could be lifing kind of applications or smart contracts on that execution layer and then consensus and security that was like ethereum stack now coming to rollups or l2s what we did

was you know you can build you can build multiple applications you broke down the application layer you also broke down the execution layer like you have like different kind you can experiment with different kind of VMS you could have you know any kind of VM that you want uh and you experiment that so it's like application specific rollups and other Buns of rollups that you have uh but still we didn't Tinker with the con sest this is third layer and that's where the shared security came into picture right shared security mean that hey you know what you can build any kind of applications that's that's anable ethereum you can any you can exper with the experiment with the execution layers because you know that's what rups provide but now we can also experiment with different consensus mechanisms so it's like you broke down everything the

whole stack and the only thing that was remaining was Economic Security from a base chain and that's the core concept sh security that hey you can experiment on all levels be the consensus layer execution layer and application layer and that's what AVS is like an AVS is um you know as a decentralized service or system that uh allows you to configure execution consensus and application all the same time it's like the most uh modular in the sense the most powerful thing that we have uh seen so far and all of this secured by the Bas layer now where catalysis comes in picture is that we enable um you know we enable teams to believe

vs and not just on AA but also other res taking protocols we so as you mentioned you know as as as I mentioned there are there different kinds of Innovations all the different Stacks like application execution consensus what we enable to do is that we enable you to do that experimentation by providing the necessary infrastructure tooling that allows you to do that you want different consensus algorithms you can use catalysis uh the cat Le SDK that we're providing like it has all those modules for configuring execution environments configuring consensus algorithms and all those things so whatever that's possible uh to do what sh security can do with catalysis and that's what we enabling all right well let's it's a good segue into catalysis so can you

talk more about like the the the platform the architecture and you know we'll get into like how developers use catalysis to build their abss leveraging different uh sources of security awesome yeah um so yeah before before proceeding to answer this question I I justly um you know talk about catalysis and what we're building so at catalysis we are building an abstraction layer for sh security protocols to make it easier for avss or actively validated services to scale and Thrive and get Economic Security from multiple reaking protocols we are trying to abstract the entire complexities of reaking and you know trying to uh like be um an abstraction

so that you don't have to really think about the infrastructure that is in reing protocols and it just uh about it's it's fora just about getting your own security and just decentralizing the service so that's what we're building in terms of the stack we um so we sit between the avss and the resing protocols so we um so you order to understand what what we're building and how that really makes sense imagine if you're like trying to build an FPS right um now you can you know you can spend like weeks and months you trying to understand like different uh architecture differences and different like ecosystem differences from igen layer SYM kak um you know and the jeto and then babyon and so on and you can try to understand like what architecture

makes sense for us and what not so that could be something that you could do it definitely do but it would take a lot of time for you to do that like instead of building that AVS we spending time researching on that and we don't expect everyone to become an expert in reaing your shared security right um so that's that's where we're trying to come in uh we say that hey you know what we Pro you would provide the necessary abstraction for you to work with shared security you know um and as part of that the abstraction is nothing but the smart contract layer that enables interoperability between different ring protocols across different chains so you know you could have um that castration layer connects like eum reging protocols like like you know I layer symbi kak it connects the um the Solana racing

protols like GTO Sol and so on and on the babyon side connects like sat and pel and so on um and all rewards distribution and slashings are managed by by catalysis layer um in terms of how devs used catalysis so we're providing catalst SDK uh which in the most easiest sense it could be thought of like Cosmos SDK for building apss right so it's like Cosmos SDK provide like model tooling for you to configure different kind of consensus algorith Ms you know uh and things like that to build app specific rollups or app chains um what we are providing for the Catalyst SDK lets you configure anything from you know divorce distribution node operator selection slashings and all kinds of things that you need in order to configure manage

and belives uh and one of the things is you can configure how much Economic Security that you need from any of the sing protocols right which is one of cool features that we provide so say you know you want 100100 million of Economic Security say for example you know you need $100 $100 million of Economic Security for AVS and you can configure where STK you know uh we have a model that you can say that hey we want let's say 50 million from AER 30 million from simbar and 20 million from Satler things like that so you can configure all these things you can dynamically rebalance them um and the goal would be to you know optimize for what you pay to for renting this Economic Security so that you have the most cost- effective uh security and also have the most robot

AVS on your side so that's kind of um how the catalysis stack looks like and how developers would would would try to use and want to use uh on the platform interesting so one thing that kind of comes to mind here is that you know that because you C you talked about the cosmos SDK the cosmos SDK can be used in a uh reaking configuration in the in the form of um interchange security or replicated security I forget what they're calling it now uh you know why why couldn't one use like an existing SDK like like Cosmos or even the op stack to plug into uh like different reaking protocols like you if you want to use say CS SDK

because you know you like that development framework or whatever like couldn't you have just sort of some kind of an adapter that sits between whatever application SDK you like and you know the the kind of like reaking ecosystem or is there something unique about catalysis that you know where you need to own the entire development stack um in order to have this work yes so some of the thems that we talked to try to you know um use Cosmos SD for the use uh for for you know for the use case but they mentioned that they had to change a lot of the code and they ended up you know changing a lot um so and that really makes sense right like cos SDK

was not built to serve the unique use cases of avss um because as as as as we talked earlier right like uh rollups don't let you you know configure the consensus uh don't allow you to configure a lot of consen algorithms and and break down break that down so definitely it had it has some components and models that can be used for abs is like you know you could probably use you know if your AVS uses like consensus mechanic like qf2 tender from from from cos from that that's perfectly okay but now there are like specific use cases that I mentioned like reward slashing and especially what what we are doing about interop between different raceing protocols and cross train which is something unique very very unique and

has to be implemented on our end so being said that uh Catalyst SDK using Catalyst SDK would feel like using Cosmos SDK I would say because we want to be providing that kind of developer experience because we know that Cosmos SDK um has been a successful one people like it the way it's it's you know it's organized and and presented so we want to Pro provide like a nice us experience like that like Dev experience um uh but as I mentioned we have to build a couple of this new components together and which uh frankly needs an entire new code base rather than this forking Cosmos SDK uh to suit the use cases of AVS uh so yeah that that's that's how I

think about it right okay interesting and like so when using the SDK what what language are developers building on I mean is it s of solidity or have you built your own language or using something else so it's it's go based so the Catalyst SDK is is currently in goal so goang um and it would be you we we are trying to add support for us but I think the most of teams that we talk to have their like uh development stack in goal uh and that's where like core focus is um building in in go why is that when like a lot of you know upand cominging blockchain like all VMS I guess you know

like whether it's uh you know salana or kmm or or even move are rust based uh what What's the uh kind of design decision behind using go yeah I think it's it's the the the decision to use go came from having the customer research and in talking with different aves and uh and trying to understand like what was the most preferred language that they have uh so the one question one of the questions that we all ask with all of the CBS is like what's the text stack that you have what kind of programming language do you use and 90% for our research came out it's go um I know and I think statistically speaking as well

like go is the most preferred language um especially the eum ecosystem I would say and also the cosmos ecosystem uh but yeah I'm I'm because I if if I give you an example right like um get which is like the go ethereum code based one of the highly reone it's in go we have this Cosmos SDK in go um there are couple of different cryptography packages that are like highly used that that are in go so I think um the blockchain ecosystem has seen a lot of this you know dependencies that have already built in go so you know people just make it it just makes it easier to just import all those open source packages uh and then just you know builder stuff but uh yes uh having said that I definitely think that there's like growing interest in then

the uh in the blockchain ecosystem to use rust especially because it provides like more memory safe uh memory safety and so it makes it more in robust against crashes and stuff um but also it's I think it's ad options picking up and uh and once we have that we definitely add support but you know once we have go and rust support I think that's that would cover 90 99% of the cases okay this this might be a of simplistic question but uh is rust better adapted for smart contracts and go better adapted for building soort of your own chain um is that like a good distinction to make I guess between both

languages there there couple of uh you know trade-offs that themes have before choosing those you know any of those Gore R um yeah I would say that TR is definitely more memory safe in the sense that you know those problems that can occur in production has already taken care of so you actually run into less problems in production right so that makes it it's more safe uh against you know things that like memory leak and stuff that could never happen or like that could is very R to happen um and hence they they're better suited for like probably smart development but like solid is the most one um and from my experience we have seen go being used in distributed

systems uh a lot like when we have when you are programming like distributed systems um and unite more concurrency and stuff it Go makes it much much easier to build all those you know complex systems with East because it's easy to understand easy to ride and stuff and I think uh that's why my distinction would be go would be used for like high performance distributed systems and rust would definitely be used for the same cases but uh we like safety is critical like you cannot have a bug that messes you up in production uh and in execution so yeah that would be my like rough things but there are teams that that are more capable to answer this questions and the different dat offs there cool so one of the things

that catalysis offers aps's is Diversified security so you can derive security from multiple reaking protocols talked about igir uh kak and biotic Babylon you know Milky Way and uh I think there's one on salana I'm not super familiar with but what what benefits do avss gain from uh utilizing multiple security sources and I'm talking about like real tangible benefits not this kind of like you know hypothetical kind of like maybe some slashing but you know is like as we have very sort of professional validator sets slashing is probably highly unlikely

except in some edge cases but like are there real tangible benefits that that abss will benefit from uh by having just a very Diversified um reaking security set yeah absolutely there are um couple of really really important points that should avss should note and they are uh and that's why they should use uh or choose to use cels and try it out um and like let me you know go through one of these a couple of these so I think the first thing to understand is is that Economic Security is not free right uh that Economic Security that you are renting from out the igen layer or like symic or

baby Milky Way any of this using platforms has a price that you have to pay in terms of rewards right that's that that's the AVS rewards you have to pay those protocols and that compensate to snow operators and whatnot so um in that case I believe and we strongly believe that there is going to be competitive Dynamics across the pricing that is uh present across the racing protocols right uh for example probably like as an ABS you might have to like pay 5% in a rewards to I layer right and let's say for the same thing you might be paying like two and a half% on on Sat ler that's backed by Bitcoin or bog right um this like rough numbers or like

this is like very random numbers but my the thing that that I want to stress on is that there's definitely going to be comparative uh pricing across different racing protocols as an AVS you would want to get the best out of it you would want the most cost- effective security because you know you want to reduce expenses and pay you know only the amount that you need and that would mean that you should have like a global price Discovery mechanism uh and that's what catalysis provides that's one like it enables a global price Discovery uh by you know aggregating all this Economic Security from resing protocol so you have a single bird side view or like unified interface to see like how much to pay for what and you can kind of D diversify um like like you do for a

portfolio like you want to you know put in that and you get that much amount so you have to spend on that and and so on so forth so you can do that the second point is more on from the security standpoint right um which means that building on kazal is actually Hedges or distributor uh that comes from uh you know things like cascading slashings or Mass LRT migrations what I mean by that is like let me give you a con concrete example right so for example you're building an APS on say xplatform um you know it'll be better if I don't name name names otherwise you know that' be like um uh not not a good thing so um let's say let's say you are building an AVS on xplatform and that AVS needs $100

to Economic Security but um now let's say there's like cascading slashes massive cascading slashing that happen happen and then all of this Economic Security is reduced and the platform doesn't have $100 of Economic Security provide for APS now that means that your AVS is insecure right um and it's vulnerable and it can be hacked and whatnot and any kind of melious things can that can happen um so once you build on catalysis uh your risk is distributed across this multiple racing protocol so even if one protocol has some issue when like they have SL in cascading slashings are like failures um and like lot of re lrts like put away

restake capital from the platform your is still secure right because now other resisting Protocols are unaffected by what's happening on one platform so that distribut RIS interupt what what could cause like cascading slashes yeah so cascading slashings are def are enabled when like when one operator is validating for multiple abss let's say let's say operator you know is valid for five avss and uh one trigger one one slashing could trigger another slashing because same operator is valid for the other abses and you know if once that happens then the second ABS gets lash and then the third and so on and that is is actually connected with other operator which

might be uh validating for the C so like ABS one is valid operator one and operator two so that if that ABS one gets slashed from operator one then Operator Operator 2 also you know gets that effect hits you know takes a heat and then so on so forth so you can imagine all those things happening and then one thing leads to the other and then you ended up with like lots of slashings uh so actually there was there's a great research piece by The Gauntlet team uh on this where T chitra uh and um yeah th chitra and Malisha and they all you know on those researchers actually posted something about how lrts could solve this problem by rebalancing uh when you know to to solve this cash getting

you know cascading slashings problem okay I mean How likely is this to happen though I mean like in a world where you know you have highly Professional validator Service uh industry you know like the coar ones and the kils and of the world you know running uh saking infrastructure for uh for reaking protocols and and avss uh as a result like have we seen slashing events already or How likely it was to happen yeah I think this is definitely a research in progress I would say because we do not have slashing live on any racing platform so

uh yeah so it's yeah it's just not enabled so you don't have that but it's the biggest point where you need to have you need to know what things would be enabled once you enable you know what things could happen if you to enable slashings and that's where this research comes in picture right it's not the thing that hey we can enable slashing because IG could have that uh could have enabled uh slashing probably months back but I think that's what the team is working on to understand the security implications of that and that's where you know things like that you know could happen and you know people are and of course I think IG L solved this problem by you know having this concept of unique stake and slash B stake that really uh mitigates all this effects

when like one operator has a unique take delegated to one AVS so even that slashing happens the other avss are other operators are not affected so yeah you know as as I say this these things are going um are still you know things that could happen in security research um but of course I think as you mentioned there are some professional institutional G op node operaters are Opera in the VSS like korus one lugon c41 P2 uh and it seems unlikely that things could this could happen but of course in a decentralized setting you cannot be sh right and that's how you have to make a system so secure that even this things could even think parties could coll collude to do something malicious they are not able to do that or like they get nothing out of that right right

interesting so what else do AVS have to gain from Diversified security except for the security part like on the liquidity side um what are the benefits of having multiple reaking protocols backing your abs yeah I think um so so the first that I mention is it enables Global price Discovery the the second one is that you know it it enables you to build robers DSS so thir is that um now you have a single unified interface to you know kind of tap into multiple pools of security so it's like your your market for getting normal security is now expanded it's not limited to one it's

limited to like it's expand to 10 tens of different markets so and you can have that one one way to you know get uh that security so that's that's one um from the liquidity side I would say if you're building an AVS you on catalysis all of these different lrts could provide Economic Security to your AVS or delegate that that that kind of liquidity TOS why this different reaking protocols so you're not limited to like getting Renzo or sayy or like K Dow security why I anymore your is why virtue of being on catalysis lrts like Melo or likei could provide Economic Security VI boots iig and symbiotic and

so on so it's like you're you have uh an option or like way to get more and more uh security um and also like on different Diversified settings and also makes it easier for LST to do so as well right so yeah building on top of that so one of the things that we enable why stion layer is called on onchain auction mechanisms um so we we're building like um um Marketplace you know on top of this uh Catal abstraction layer that kinds of that kind of uh connect lrps to apss so what I mean by that is as an AVS if you're coming to catalysis and saying that hey I want $100 of Economic Security I don't care I don't really

care if it comes from I or sympatic or jeto or milky or any of those reacing protocol I just one Economic Security right now now what this platform what what this like auction onine auction Market could look like is that lrts across the different ring protocols with the Diversified portfolios uh could bid for this AVS that hey uh I think this AVS is good the team's good you know and all of those things we like the C is could grow uh and we want to bid for that and they kind of place their bits on uh using the catalysis platform and then AVS would have like uh more flexibility into choosing which AR is to choose from how much economics that the need so it's like it puts back avss into Power like they have the they have like

uh options decide on their side and LRT is also have like more flexibility in allocating Capital uh across sping protocols for I catalysis so that is something that we're trying to uh make it seamless uh because in terms of beating an EVS de tooling is one part the second part is actually getting Economic Security or getting actual allocation from lrts that's one of the key problems that we trying to solve as well at catalysis yeah have you guys heard of a protocol called um veilance I'm not sure you're harder than before you yeah veilance is one of our profill companies uh Max has been on the podcast before they're creating essentially a Marketplace for protocol own liquidity so you know think of it as like what Igan L is to security they are

to liquidity so it like you you effectively create a marketplace where you know protocols that want to deploy liquidity into different like avss liquidity pools Etc can do so and kind of programmatic way um I think that maybe sort of like layering this on top or having this having bail in some somehow like um be a part of this would like allow um this kind of automated free flow of liquidity between you know the reaking protocols that like want to choose with with whom they want to deploy liquidity and like avss that have like a demand for liquidity and may want to um uh give up something like for that liquidity like you know token

allocations Etc um yeah maybe uh something to consider here no absolutely yeah I think that would be that' be great I think in the end look it's it's just avss that that you know that they're on demand side that needs some economic security and this security providers lrts and you know as you mentioned Valance could be if you could have this integration with katalis I think just make it simpler to connect supply and demand so yeah yeah utilizing catalysis does it introduce any unforeseen challenges with interoperability and liquidity fragmentation uh in the same way that you know building on different a different role like two different

rollups have that interop ability issue or is it sort of facilitated through the fact that there is a shared security layer yeah I think good question um using catalysis definitely makes it lot lot simpler to build an vs and like kind of these surveys and and just go away you know just move on with it um but there are some Challen challenges on our front you know it kind of really build abration lay out like one of the key uh challenges that we have is to really uh make sure that we are able to integrate all this different uh Diversified architectures that is resing protocols have that's one of the interesting challenges that we have and

you know we have an answer to that and that's the second challenge is is definitely uh to be to enable that you know to enable interoperability between you know cross and reaking right um say you know you have IG on etherum and you have Cheeto on Solana and then this rewards that an AVS uh you know issues has to be distributed across Solan across jeto and I and that's where the inoperability in Cross messaging happens and that's that's one of the things that we make sure that nothing goes wrong there because it's actually you know sending out money and rewards across the different chains so uh that's one of the challenges that need to you know think about um because we want it to be both

secure that is it should be robust when we are sending rewards across def change so that didn't lost away or like nothing H nothing wrong happens um yeah so that that would be uh that would be my thing and uh and it just there's no security there's no additional security that that that come into picture so I think these are like two important things I can think of the other question that you mentioned about liquidity fragmentation um that doesn't really happen we're trying to solve that part like uh we are aggregating this you know kind of not liquidity but Economic Security fragmentation that's happening by you know by the virtue of having like a having $10 million security symbiotic having two and a half Bon two and a half you know Milky Way having like 300 Bill

300 million and so on so that there's definitely a growing fragment of Economic Security and that we are not we're actually trying to solve that by saying that hey let's not really fragment uh keep on fragmenting this ecosystem and make it just simpler to use uh and and get Economic Security so yeah that would that would be my thing uh from just just to summarize my answer from an AVS Builder perspective you have nothing to worry about because all of these challenges are on catalis side and we are trying to you know we we are what we what we trying to do is to provide interface or you so you don't have to worry about about it and you just abstracted from the complexities of that but it's definitely one of the things that we need to know take care of and make sure that nothing goes wrong and

you give like the best developer experience possible in building your FES so one of the things that um you we've talked about is catalysis markets and how like catalysis creates this opportunity for new marketplaces to live on top of your architecture um so you we've discussed this uh privately about like these auction markets bribing markets Arbitrage markets and yield Bond markets um Can can you describe like what what those are and like how these emerge from um from this product of dribling yeah absolutely I think this is

the markets part is one of the core Innovation or kind of uh interesting pieces um that catalysis as abstraction that brings to the table right um so as you mentioned uh SE so there are like couple of different markets that we have identified that could be built like you know um they could be like bribing markets or Arbitrage markets auction markets and E Bond markets I could I could probably give a small short intro for like introduction for all of these different kinds you know before that let's try to understand like why catalysis is the way forward and why what is that makes catalysis uh feasible for these markets to happen right what's that and the re and and the way and the reason why that's possible is because catalysis um

sits like as an aggregation layer between all the avss and the reing protocols so as like a middleware um you know as a middleware layer we have uh we connect avss to you know to the resing protocols and vice versa uh we kind of enable all the different rakers or like you know stakeholders in the resing use system to talk to each other and kind of facil Inu facilitate all the deals now now let me give you one example of how how that looks like as you know I prior to this uh I was talking about orange and auction markets if you remember right um and that is what we call the auction markets and this this is the market that connects avss and lrts so it disconnects uh lrts

to delegate Economic Security efficiently to abss so that's like the Au on auction markets and that's feasible because we connect like we have all the Eves on our s so it makes it easy like one way for LRT to see what avss are there and just delegate to it but it's like makes it much much easier for them that's a value drop from the onch auction markets um now there's like a bribing market for for the lack of a better better name we call it the bribing Market um but uh definitely the the the interesting the idea is that you know as I mentioned prior to this as well like there could be there's definitely going to be compartive Dynamics uh across this different reaking protocols right because everyone would want to have more demand for the

economic security so they would attract more and more apss to our side now what that could that could result is they could provide more incentives uh so reaking protocols could provide more incentives to avasis and say that hey this is what you get if you want to build on top of us right um and we want to make that process more onchain and transparent and saying that hey you know you can you can you know if you want to attract an AVS these are the incentives that you provide and avss could like choose and kind of say that hey yeah for this Economic Security and this kind of inen I would choose that much of Economic Security for my G for this and that I would choose like symbi and so on so you have like complete power of what what you want to decide

right that's that's the bribing Market or like incentive Market that connects evss and reaking protocols it makes it much more simpler for a deal to happen um like there's Arbitrage markets you know that really happens and raise the capital fools from like from lar perspective if you're moving capital from one distinct platform uh delegating say you're moving from IG to symbi and so on so there's like couple of Arbitrage opport opportunities that might come in that you can leverage via catalysis uh and the last is um so we working with um partner uh Pi Finance Eric I don't know if you know him but is's a great guy um and what they're building is like uh that allows you to tokenize Future yields um and they're probably live on salana they're going to

live in salana uh but yeah one of the things that we discussed with them is that hey you know what you can also do a tokenized future yields of avss uh why catalysis what that would mean is you know when this AVS is they don't have to release rewards right now but in terms of having a future yield you can they could you can tokenize V platform and that could be distributed back to rakers so so you you know to summarize we have these different markets that are only possible why virt of being an aggregator on the aps side and that enables like very interesting unique uh interactions to happen between different stakeholders and the reaking stack including like resing protocols lrts um and a couple of others and that interesting creates a

lot of different markets and we believe that you know once we launch there could be different kind of markets that people would imagine and would build and hopefully K is provide like a bedrock and uh and a boot St pH for for that for for that to execute and happen what's the road map here and what's planned in the next couple of months uh for catalysis yeah um the road map is that we are going to launch uh our first defet in a few weeks um so it should it's it's scheduled to happen in the first in the second week of January the next year uh we are taking some time to you know test and stuff so that's that's

kind of first tet that would enable teams to use kysis for the first time uh and see what what you can do really uh by having you know uh the power to get Economic Security and configure them and manage across like a and symba for us so for defin will be supporting all the IG and symba uh but our plan is the next year plan is to be live on etherum internet for IG and add support for I and sympatic so we want to do that by q1 in Q2 we want to also integrate with Sater and pel uh preferably uh Satler uh on the babyon side so we have so we can provide this feature for AVS so ALS so get you know get tap into the econom or

you know the ecosystem effects of the babyon ecosystem uh and we want to do that in complete by cuu and that's kind of the current road map looks like and we are like um working really really hard towards that and uh hopefully we want to unleash the power of what we're building and and really show what what what our vision really looks like uh for for for our audience and devs and whoever is listening to this podcast cool is there is there anything we we missed I think we covered pretty much all of it right unless I'm missing something no s I think this was uh the most detailed discussion that I had in a long time so I think we missed I didn't think I think we didn't miss anything well definitely uh we we'll have to have have you back on uh as as

new things emerge and uh as um catalysis goes live and and you have abs is building there so happy happy back on again at some point but until then thanks so much for coming on and hope you have a good holiday season thanks uh thank you for having me and for an audience please be tuned follow our Twitter it's called catalysis I can you know probably we can share that uh in the show notes absolutely absolutely thanks uh thanks for having me uh and great discussion and bullish shared security thanks cheers thank you so much bye-bye [Music] [Music]

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