Self-Sovereign Identity: Blockchain's Killer Application?

Transcript

okay so thank you everyone very much for joining us I am really excited to be here really excited to see so many people interested in the topic of self-sovereign identity and blockchains the agenda for this evening we're going to start with a brief introduction that I will give on the basics of self-sovereign identity and then we'll go into a panel discussion with some real experts who I am delighted to have here with us tonight I would just ask you if you have any questions please do hold those until the end and hopefully we can get our panelists to uh answer anything that might come up okay so the agenda for my presentation we'll start off with a very brief discussion of what is identity go into

problems with digital identity to talk about self-sovereign identity and then like I said we'll go into the panel so what is identity basically identity is an identifier plus a credential and I would like to just pause briefly and say of course this is not the whole definition of identity identity is a huge topic with lots of different ways of identifying and describing and explaining it but for the purposes of talking about the basics of SSI we're going to narrowly focus on identity as an identifier plus a credential so what's an identifier in the real world identifiers are locally created and are therefore decentralized they're locally

maintained and they're unique so examples are your signature your name your face or your fingerprint what's a credential in the real world a credential can be issued by many different sources it can be physically held in your wallet it can be controlled by you you decide when to take it out of your wallet and show it to somebody and examples could be your passport your driver's license even your library card your gym card your health insurance card or maybe a diploma okay so what is digital identity so we have a problem when we go online you can't take your ID out of your wallet and show it to somebody so the solution is that when you go

online you create a virtual account maintained by a company and that account has a username and a password and companies maintain records of all that information Central and the company owns that account and you when you go online you don't exist with that account that's owned by a company so what are some problems with this method of digital identity well to start with you're all familiar with this one we have to maintain a hugely increasing number of passwords the average person is expected to remember over 100 passwords and that number is only increasing it's

increased 25 between 2019 and 2020. so then people start using easy to guess passwords or repeating their passwords and easy to guess passwords are easy to speak another problem is that large amounts of centrally stored data lead to huge incentives for thefts so just a couple of numbers in 2017 Yahoo announced 3 billion accounts were hacked 2021 saw a record of almost 2 000 data compromises in the us alone which was almost a 70 increase 294 million people had their data compromised and the average data breach

cost the impacted company 3.86 million dollars per company using credentials from one site to log into another for example you've probably seen that pop-up message use Google to log into whatever only increases the problem as there are ever and ever larger stores of data that become really attractive targets for thieves then we have the loss of privacy private companies are monitoring and tracking our Behavior as we navigate our way around the internet and most people have little or no understanding of this surveillance that's taking place and it's not well regulated and just as a as a excellent book suggestion The Uncanny

Valley and Memoir provides a terrifying view into the extent to which companies can view our data and then companies have all the power companies Force users to sign biased agreements I mean anytime you sign up for something you have 15 pages of eight point font that's terms and conditions that no one ever reads and that buried in those terms means that companies can unilaterally close our accounts without any reason for any reason and once an account is closed you lose all the data and this is not an academic or a theoretical example this happened to me so I'm going to date myself here so bear with me but I had a Hotmail account

and uh I had connected with people only through Hotmail and one day I tried to log in my Hotmail account was closed no explanation no way to get the data back I tried I couldn't even find anyone to talk to with Hotmail I lost all of those connections and this is again a problem because you don't exist online without that account that's owned by a company so this is a pretty weak picture luckily there's a solution so if in the real world identifiers are locally created locally maintained decentralized and unique self-sovereign identity has decentralized identifiers

so these identifiers are locally created by your own device and a software program they're locally maintained on your phone they're decentralized they're unique using cryptography and it's like having your own cryptographically created unique fingerprints so in the real world credentials are issued by many sources held in your own personal wallet and controlled by you with self-sovereign identity we have verifiable credentials which can be issued by many sources are held in your electronic identity wallet on your phone and that gives the owner control over when it's shared and what data is is uh

presented so this can lead to a reduction in passwords because one digital wallet can hold many verifiable credentials that can all be accessed by the same seed phrase and a digital wallet can can contain a large number actually theoretically an infinite number of decentralized identifiers did all linked to the same secrets the data is stored locally so companies with self-sovereign identity don't hold or they don't have to hold large amounts of personal user data because it's held by you thieves could try to hack into your phone because no device is completely

um protectable able to be protected from all thieves but if they did they would only get your data one record they wouldn't get the thousands or millions or billions of records that are stored centrally by large companies so this could reduce the amount that companies spend protecting data from hacks and so just as one example the Equifax data breach costs the company 1.4 billion dollars U.S due to the hack of data from 147 million members so the idea behind self-saughter identity is that it's privacy preserving so users control how the data is shared the verifiable credential or VCS are

stored in the user's wallet verifiers using organic cryptography can confirm that a VC is valid without having access to the data and wallets in theory can log and track every data exchange so that you the user know exactly when and how and by whom your data is being used and separate divs for each interaction mean that companies can no longer track or monitor your behavior as you go across the internet because there's no common denominator you can have a separate dig for each interaction at the end of the day the theory behind SSI is that the user regains power users control their data users can maintain

peer-to-peer connections and don't no longer have to rely on a third-party controlled and owned account and finally a user can take their data in theory and do bring it to a different platform you're no longer locked into a platform that owns and holds all of your data so to take an analogy with blockchain self-sovereign identity self-sovereign identity does for identity what Bitcoin did for money so if you were all here in the crypto Valley and familiar with the blockchain ecosystem in Legacy Finance the bank controlled your account with Bitcoin you can create your own or you can use your own decentralized wallet which is controlled by you

in the Legacy internet essentially control a central company controlled your identity but with SSI you can control your own decentralized image but there is an important place for the blockchain analogy breaks down because unlike blockchains like Bitcoin where all of the information is public and stored on a public blockchain invisible tip anyone forever with self-sovereign identity personal information is not stored on watching dids and beasties are stored locally typically in a user's phone the blockchain can be used to hold records of issuer did so public

entities that are issuing credentials and encrypted information used to verify that a VC was issued but not details about the BC itself so here we come to the title of the presentation which is could self-sovereign identity be blockchain's killer application so I personally work in the cardano ecosystem and cardano's sell Sovereign identity technology is called a teleprism but we have a great panel working with lots of other blockchain networks that we'll get to in just a minute uh because we're here in Switzerland I also have to put in a plug for DDOS which is uh the Swiss member-based nonprofit promoting self-sovereign identity in Switzerland and for anybody for whom German is a first language

there's a great intro to self-sovereign Identity in German on the DDOS website so we're going to turn in just a minute to the panel and I'm really excited to hear these experts talk about how their work is bringing this technology to life and to frame our panel discussion we're going to talk about principles that Define what a self-sovereign identity solution looks like and those principles which were not invented by me but were just were written by a leader in the field named Christopher Allen some years ago include that in self-sovereign identity users should have control of their identity they should have access to their own

the system should be transparent identities should be persistent information should be portable information should be interoperable users must be able to give their consent and minimalization is important so the disclosures of claims should be limited to the minimum amount of information that's necessary and the rights that the user must be protected and the last one it's a bit esoteric so we probably won't really focus on it but users should have an existence so that concludes the introductory presentation and so I will now ask for the panelists to make their way up to the stage and I will ask my colleagues at the CV labs to raise the screens turn

on the lights and give us a little more light in here uh hi everyone my name is Nick Mason I'm the CEO of the current founders of free space is an identity Hub wrap with no code tools so what that means is that we have multiple identity networks one of which is entire prism you saw on the screen there integrated into our platform and multiple credential types it means that companies that don't know a great deal about SSI and all of the standards and specifications we're going to pick from a library of networks and then Implement really sophisticated workflows using our no code Suite of tools so we are positioning ourselves as an on-ramp for decentralized identity we are currently live with a instance of

hyperledger Indie and with a child prism and we will be making announcements about other networks to be integrated soon uh so in this ecosystem we've got three foundations also here in zip you know the guys um what we do is we do the infrastructure for exactly 100 of what colors are just set so uh we uh implemented dids and verifiable credentials so that anyone can build the applications on top of that no matter

what they use it for so that could be for logins for example that could be for kyc processes this could be for I don't know for for discussing a cost Discovery And discussing things with each other so you can basically anywhere where you need an identity if it is a machine Identity or a personal identity you can pick from The Guild uh and it's a notary it's a basically it's an SDK you can peek from there and start building your stuff on it excellent thank you second um hi my name is Stefan nego coming from adenovo we are a software company in Switzerland based uh focused on the tailor-made software for large companies I'm leading the Innovation lab focusing

on emerging Technologies and we're working at the four per four last years on on technology like blockchain of course and International Learning cooperating machine learning and sales or identity there is two uh link to to blockchain and SSI or in our activities the first one that we created a blockchain based ecosystem called Cabos here I don't know if you haven't heard this this is a an ecosystem around cars in Switzerland and try to track her to to track the life cycle of cars being able to have a view of all the activities are required from the

evacuation uh to to the end of the live and this is like a system with uh paying with with Swiss insurances Road authorities garage and so on and the idea is to support cross-acquisition and processes like for example so imagery creation of a car and we are using socorder as as core blockchain technology and we are using SSI to manage all the identities around this and this is the entities of the members of the the car of the association these are the end user these are the nodes of the blockchain

ecosystem and this is where we decided we identified quite clearly that we need to have a solution to manage all these identities on our privacy manner way this is one of the activities we have another one where we're focusing on the on the use case which will be enabled in the future around the Eid ecosystem so you know that in Switzerland there is a new ID law which is now going to be implemented and there is some new skill implemented where we use Virtual credential on all the levels the identities from the governmental proofs like a driver license like certificate of residence using this in

the concrete use cases so this is the two way we are using SSI block excellent thank you and last but certainly not least Kelly hello uh yeah my name is Pauly Brian guard I'm the CEO of Notre Diana and um unlike most people in the space we're not really strictly speaking an identity company or an SSI company we do however use SSI in everything that we do and we help companies uh particularly crypto exchanges and financial institutions Implement fat ass crypto travel rule as it's known which has nothing to do at all to do the travel but everything

about exchanges collaborating to identify each other's uh customers for a particular transaction within the context of a transaction uh and for that we believe SSI and dids are are really the ideal technology to do so in a privacy preserving way that also maintains the full control of data by the different parties to a transaction so um where is the founding now that Ben and my family team we all worked at viewport which is the first we believe the first practical SSI system uh where we started building it in 2016. it was just a set

of Open Source protocols apps uh and libraries that are now just there independently maintained right now but here in Zug uh the city of Zug uh issued a SSI ID we didn't really have anything to do with it except they used Newport that we found out when they started sending bug reports to us and but that's the idea with SSI also an open source is that you know you don't need to have some kind of major contract or anything to be begin use it and there was an experiment here of course but we've been you know we've always been

focused on build and building practical SSI not you know idealistic SSI I mean we are all idealists probably most people in the space are very idealistic but we're also very much focused on being pragmatic getting this technology out there uh so Newport was originally built around that and I think not event is a great example of us taking them technology and but using it to solve very specific business business problems uh there yeah thanks great thank you so much for the introduction and I could borrow some crypto lingo we definitely have some SSI OG's in the room today so thank you all um so I want to I want to frame the

discussion for the panelists around those principles that I had brought up around what makes the solution self an identity solution self-sovereign and so Pele you could use the word a minute ago control so we'll start with you and I'll ask you all to talk about what does it mean for you that a user should control their own data and how does that come to life in your solution so there are a couple of aspects right so as you talked about before uh and thanks for adding the uh the disclaimer uh Peppa and the SSI not being in line well being an identity by another phone um but uh a did should ideally be created uh by a user it should not be it should just be it should really be

meaningless but in some respects in that it's just a random identifier but the controller of that should be able to prove that they control it so this is one thing that's that's specified within the did spec how this does but there's no specific claims or credentials or any other aspect around it the ID only allows its owner to prove that they control it and this is very important because it allows the owner to just the idea is something very you know it's not super you know it doesn't really have any ex any additional information in it but anyone else can issue credentials to it

and now the owner of that did can take ownership of that data and they can share that data elsewhere and this is very unlike some of the uh for example the aspects of identity that you see a lot of people in the web 3 space propose such as EMS which is a I'd say a dangerous form of identity it's not a necess it's not it's not self because all the data is shared and it's actually out of the control of users where a proper SSI system the user controls the data and can share it and prove that they are the owner of that data and they can share the data specifically private

private team yeah and Stefan I see you holding your head and nodding your head coincidentally you also have a microphone so would you like to follow on and talk about user control of data yeah so we we made some some um usability tests during a proof concept using the the referee credential and the one of the feedback of the user what they were really happy to have really to get the control of the data uh they share then you always have a proof request for the verifier asking the data they want to see and the user has the possibility to accept or not and this is a really important part I love the for the acceptance of the of of this

technology and it's going to be something if you haven't also for the future Aid in Switzerland that the the analog to the plastic identity card the the user is really able to to say if he wants to show this information or not maybe I want to jump in here for a second because that's actually it's an interesting thing that we just heard to talk many different things uh and I'm not sure if uh everyone actually noticed that so uh we learned in the beginning from from your presentation that actually uh uh the did represents but something like your face or your fingerprint and stuff like that which are things that you inherently made yourself and probably just that the did

is something that you actually make yourself right so this is the analogy to it and uh in the in the Eid system as far as I understood we understand it from Germany not from Switzerland uh but as soon as I understood it as far as I understood it um it is like this identifier it's given up by the government and not by yourself so it's not created but it's not based on the did maybe it's based on something that looks like this the idea is basically not made by itself and then we started touching credentials to it which is totally okay uh credentials have always been issued by trusted entities they are issued by your University and College University degree

or by development we call it a passport or by your library called library account so these are credentials but I think if we really want to go into the direction of SSI we have to start at the beginning which is the identifier and the identifier does have to be decentralized and it has to be unique to yourself and made by yourself otherwise your building actually a system and we talk with governments but and they always believe that it would be so nice if they're controller identifier and then you tell them hey actually in the real world you don't and then say yes when we do it's uh it's the ID card the ID card is just a verifiable credential and nothing else right so it is really

complicated to get this into the brains of people from governments but I'm pretty sure that it will succeed and confuses yes but I think we this is this is uh it's it's interesting because at the end it's um uh we have to be Dramatical and at the end the way that the the Swiss government is using SSI uh is uh especially because it helped the main domain domain attributes of our characteristic of a society want to use in the is this control is this privacy and this minimization and and also the the the knowledge proof and at the end

this is a way for them to do what they are doing in the real web so what we are all doing in the real world in the digital world and at the end it's not about philosophy but about practical way to use SSI for tangible meter yeah let's let Nick jump in and then maybe we can come back to and go in ballet I know yeah um always difficult to go at the end of the line on the questions like that but I think aside from some of the I suppose the strict definitions of what control means

I think the other thing about control is it's a it's reflected in how we're able to use something so when we are restricted in the use of a digital identity by the parameters that are set by for example the federator identity provider like Google or Facebook they let you to use your login to sign up to or access other services that are unrelated to Google or Facebook that's gives you some control of that identity across the internet in the sense that you're using it in those different places the value with self-sovereign identity and control will come when we're able to use those identities in the same way that we would with the organic complexity of our identities in the physical world so it's about

extensibility it's not just about the it's not just about the factor of control it's about the extensibility of that credential to multiple domains across the online environment and one great example for example to take a very tangible case as students and as employees we gain competencies and skills and qualifications that are useful to employers and other learning institutions and so on but the the extent to which we control those competencies and skills and credentials is often limited by our ability to gain a reference or an actual tangible diploma from the University of origin or

the employer of origin for example and a really fantastic SSI use cases to have those owned those competencies and those skills owned as credentials by the individual but extensible so that for example they could be accessed through a LinkedIn profile made available through that through that setting if we wanted it to and if an employer wanted to verify that and that's where I think we see incredible power behind control it's not just a technical factor it's not just a definition it's a real value proposition that I think is rather part of what the value proposition of privacy is is all about us it's more than just an ethic it's actually really useful yeah so let's let's stay on the topic of

control just for a minute longer and maybe make it very tangible and practical for the audience how exactly does it work for a user to control their either way we're talking about control two different things either control their their did their decentralized identifier and or the verifiable credentials that can be issued to that identifier but what does that look like how do I control my own data so you can you can make it um as easy as as logging in with with with Google or or Facebook or anything like those kind of like or anything like that essentially there is a uh there's a set of Standards where you control you have

a mobile app as you talked about mobile identity wallet and you can use it to let's say scan a QR code or log in within a mobile app flow and the um the app well the relying Hardy app the app that's or bank or whoever that's trying to access your information has to identify themselves first and then ask for some specific data that you can then share with them now once you've shared that data you have shared that data with them and and this is one thing to to also understand is that it doesn't magically solve that solve privacy in that particular point

but you are sharing it specifically with the parties that you were sharing it with now they can do with it whatever they want according to whatever the national you know data privacy regulations are but it's not necessarily super super magical but but the great thing about it is that if we get into a position where they can also issue credentials to you you can then pull your data with you and now you can share that elsewhere this is something that's not possible with the traditional open ID based method used like the Google or or Facebook where the verification of that data happens by asking Google for your data

on your behalf right you can now take it with you and share it with someone else in the future Nick how about you you we made you go last next time I I think that that's a I suppose that's a good it's a good starting point to to build up if I'm there's a mobile wallet um within that visit set of credentials and those credentials can be either um they can either be used on a on the basis of a binary interaction and that's probably what most of us are familiar with in our online interactions we we have credential X we use it to achieve Gold Line

but again it's not a it's not a necessarily a reflection of how it's not a reflection of the value that accrues to to you as a customer to the receiving party or to the to the let's call it like the the surrounding information relating to the credential and I guess I don't want to go don't want to get too theoretical so again to bring it back to a concrete kind of example here if you if over the next five years our online identities will proliferate from the hundreds to the multiple thousands you know if kill protocol for example is as

wildly successful as we hope it will be that will result in us having many thousands of identities with which we control different additional assets we have different Communications with different parties there is the potential to be really tangible to have reputation mechanisms that are based not on a Reliance on a um you know a single party say that we do or do not have a certain a certain quality it'll be based on the full range it can be based on the full range of our interactions across the internet without it without any one of those interactions being compromising so it's not a reputation model in the sense of the

kind of the Chinese social scoring model is the one that often gets to throw into this it's more in the sense of a dynamic reflection of who someone is online and I think that that's another you know I think that's another important angle with the with the control Stefan and you know we're both looking at me for a microphone so I'm going to step on you get you get to have the last word on this topic I I think the question was actually how does it actually work for verified computers so I make a simple example um first in the real world when I want to go and buy alcohol somewhere this guy probably tells me hey are you a team can you prove uh and then I can choose which credential I want to show I can use my

driver's license I can use my password I can use my ID card anything which has basically a date of process a picture of you now right and then the guy basically checks four things so the first thing that he checks is probably if the picture on the document actually matches my face this is very very powerful because I can even take my passport to put it somewhere and you can't use it right because you look totally different and you can't buy your alcohol that's a it's it's a this makes it really uh private to the person but the second thing that checks is probably if this is a fake ID you can just build it myself um so there's some security thingies on it right so there's the second thing I'm going to check the third is uh he will check if the issuing entity is actually

something that he trusts if I say yeah this is the English credential which is which is issued by Ingo and it says Ingo is over 18 well he won't trust that here but if he sees it's a country that he lives in and you probably say yeah this is totally fine and that was already the fourth thing right so um and then he looks actually at the content and sees hey actually this guy is born in this year uh makes a little bit of calculation yeah definitely over 18 so he can buy alcohol so um that's what we want in the digital world and this is what we don't have in the digital and this is exactly how the verify the credential works so first of all it is issued by a trusted entity and this trusted entity is signing it with their did so you have the did of the issuing

entity in there and it can always be checked if actually it was this entity that uh that was probably number three um and then when I show it when I share my verifiable credential with someone I want to buy alcohol in the internet for example I sign up with my did and my did is basically on the one side whereas silent it is my fingerprint but on the other side it has a public site it is basically my face in the entire and I control it so it's definitely okay so they can see actually this is a real person um and then they um I signed my professional with all the ideas I make sure that it is before um and then they can check on the blockchain if this credential is

actually valid uh because there's a hash of the blockchain and of the credential on the blockchain and they can see if there is actually developed and also the issue I can remember so basically you have those four things which you had in the physical world back in the digital world and this is what verifiable credentials are so they basically give back all the good things that we have for the last 1500 years uh with the credentials and the identities which we built in physical and thank you for your patience so not much more not too much to to to add to this group Cube example I think one example of the controller that uh I

can at any time so delete my library credential in my wallet so this is as I want to have it in my cup on it so my wallet in the physical world I can do that so anytime I say I want to delete it and it's done so I think it's it's one of the pre-tangible example of how we can have the control of it and another part is that uh is that I will so the truth of this this attribute which are on the vertical engine can only be done with my Consultants on this time so if somebody wants to verify two days later so we can't do it without my agreement okay this is one other part of the of the way that we can have a

control on this data thanks and actually that leads right into the next principle so just as a reminder taking those principles around what makes an identity solution self-sovereign and we're talking about how we're bringing those principles to life so control was the first one and now we're going to change gears and talk about persistence so persistence being the idea that an identity should last but also with gdpr in particular you have the right to be forgotten and you just said step on the right to delete your credential so can you talk about what that ideal of persistence means practically speaking within your solution stuff I made and we can go to you yeah first since you've got the

microphone yeah I actually see this is as long as you you have it and it's not relocated so you can use this regular credential and for that this is persistency so all the simple answer to this might be Bingo do you want to go next uh maybe just a little thing that just added that put the attitude and this is one of the reasons why we're actually talking about blockchains in this thing persistence also means that no one can switch it off like you're a nice example you're happy for Hotmail so someone will just switch it up right and it could even be that hot magnet switched off or Facebook or something and uh that wouldn't be nice and this is actually why he would use blockchains for for certain things like

for example the validity offer credential uh because blockchains can't be shut down by anyone they're cutting they can't be government or a company or whatever which shuts down the blockchain so you can be sure it is always on which is also a part of persistence and hello yeah this persistence one is okay I don't necessarily agree with all the you know with all the with all of these particular segments like ideally it's a challenge I mean ideally you control these these credentials and you can decide if you want to delete it but we we should also realize that verifiable credentials unless we just want to just

sit alone in our room and just talk with ourselves are supposed to be used to interact with other parties whether it's businesses or or other individuals and the minute we share with them there is actually we're creating a essentially an edge and a graph and now it's part of our connection there's like a you know an identity construct between two different identities now and that other party now also have the has the right to it so so a very practical way of saying this is for example when you go into uh when you go into a bank let's say you wanted to implement a mortgage system

using verifiable credentials you can't just ask the bank to just you know delete your mortgage right and and because they they do sure [Music] and this is and this is where sometimes you know people people look at it from a very simplistic point of view like you know I'm talking with you know about working with Facebook but for example if you are sharing your credentials with a financial institution that has onboarded you they're a record-keeping requirements that that institution have and you have absolutely zero right to be forgotten in most jurisdiction including the EU on that particular cases so we have but it

actually is still is still useful because you can also you can always not share it with someone but the minute you've shared it you have lost full control of that information but still much better because you're making that decision of who you're sharing and sharing it with but it's very important to understand that that some cases verifiable credentials can just be very transient things in some cases they're more permanent permanent things and typically if you're interacting with a vet with a business that has record-keeping requirements there's no no deleting anything for the next five to ten years yeah I'm I'm an American and I have the privilege of

filing U.S taxes I don't think the IRS is going to forget me anytime soon unfortunately before we give Nick a chance to talk on persistence can you can you expand a little bit more you mentioned an edge on a graph and I hear this a lot can you talk about what that means yeah so when I talk about graphs I talk we're like I'm not a I'm not a mathematician at all but I can't hardly I can hardly you know two and two together but when we talk about graphs it's not like you know graph of numbers created in Excel it's a set of nodes that are connected together and blockchains are essentially graphs they are essentially graph databases between addresses that

are transacting with each other the same way you can look at SSI as just being a a large graph where each did is a node but the actual important information is the credential which is an edge so the initial connection you have when someone issues you a credential is that the issuer now connects to you through this verifiable credential but the minute you then share that credential with someone else you're creating an additional edge with this other identity there's actually a lot of useful information in this that's actually in many cases way more useful than just an individual's

credential and for me in this is I mean this is also how Google and Facebook and all of these companies say they make as many Fantastic Services as they do as quick as they're building up this craft world of The View and I think one of the real powerful aspects of SSI is when we start start actually thinking a little bit more like Facebook and Google a little bit less more less than the issuer of your national identity but then we get into much more interesting use cases where you can create a lot of benefits for the different parties so for example a individual will be able to build a view over all of their financial transactions

across blockchains financial institutions that they control using some service that they have provided that data to and that's very powerful they can use that for managing their own risk performing their own analytics and businesses can do the same this is why you know they're so there's always the the use case that you always hear about SSI is I'm going to go prove my I'm over 18. uh on the internet and without sharing my name or address or any of these kinds of things which is you know that's what we do with a driving license or a ID card or something today but it's also not really

particularly a big problem but there are way bigger problems out there such as risk management fraud management for and all of these kind of things we need to think about much larger amounts of data and thinking graphs and I've got to ask you one more question on that so so what's better about doing that with SSI as opposed to the Facebook and Google model that they do it today well I think the real powerful aspect here is that if you control the data you can pull in all the data that you have access to rather than just these little silos that you have so right now your average person has a uh you know a Facebook Silo

a or a meta Silo I guess and there is a alphabets to continue the same thing as an alphabet Silo and there are all of these different you know large webs three Web Two silos then there's our banking Silo we may have multiple Banks so there's multiple banking silos then there are there's our health insurance and in Switzerland we all have you know there are many different health insurance companies uh and so each of these health insurance companies has a silo with SSI it allows us to pull all of this data together in a safe way to make sense of it which would be really hard to do using using centralized data

yeah thanks and so then Nick that gets over to you either to if you have any follow-up Comics or to get us back on the topic of practically speaking what does persistence mean s me in a use case or a practical persistence is actually one of the kind of it's one of the uncomfortable cousins for ourselves overnight thanks to you because um persistence implies choice it it also implies in some cases an absence of human error you know if we if we hold all of our credentials on our device and we use our device our device gets stolen or you know you drop it in a puddle you know if the credentials aren't backed up you've lost them

so what does persistence mean to people in that context I think we are pragmatic in the world of SSI and so you know we can provide you know backup and Recovery mechanisms that either lead non-existing web 2 Solutions like a Google Drive that I said or or perhaps there are some brilliant distributed Storage Solutions like open source Solutions like flurry that are out there that are offering more privacy preserving and decentralized options but persistence is is partly a factor of um system design it's also partly mitigating

the risks of humans being humans and losing their stuff yeah that makes sense and actually Kelly gave us a good lead-in to the next principle so we've covered so far control and persistence the next one is portability so the idea that that you can take your data across lots of different places so Ingo do you want to do you want to start us off on practically speaking together no um so practically speaking uh I think this is one of the biggest issues which came along with that too that's because nothing was really compatible Facebook is not sharing the data that they have

not even with you and they won't share it with any other service probably unless they pay for it and that's probably not what we want so a standardization is key to this thing so what happened is that there's an organization called dif the decentralized identity Foundation where lots of companies a lot of parts probably everyone here on the Bernal as part of that and there's also huge companies like IBM and Microsoft being part of that and they set together starting I think in 2017 or even 2016 defining those standards called did and verifiable credentials this is nothing that one of those guys here on the panel actually made up this is uh this is

international standards uh standardized by the w3c this is the guys which also brought you HTTP so that something that people use in the end and uh this this is key to it because there's many many different solutions it's not like there's one did solution yeah everyone who's killed that wouldn't be possible because we are just a small company and everyone's a small company compared to Facebook so the audience they are the only way to win this battle uh is actually that we start working together and the only way to work together is that we are compatible with each other so if I produce a kill dit and you want to use that on your uh system which is hypothesia then those things are

compatible and the same holds true for the verifiable credentials so we can just use them across system and this I think the only way to actually make it possible to share data and to to collectively somehow win this thing against the Facebooks and the robots thank you go ahead I think we we might need to differentiate the importability and interoperability and I wonder I wonder if there was a um were you talking about interoperability yeah yeah so okay then you talk about it this was the perfect answer for age yeah um portability

well I think this comes it comes back a little bit to what I was talking about earlier in in um allowing our online identities to reflect the organic complexities of Our Lives supportability is uh is important for us being able to exercise our independence and our consent and our authority over the things that we own we do own we should at least own the personal data that accrues to us as either as customers of companies or consumers of other services or whatever you should own those things and so what portability means from my perspective because if I'm answering the question yeah what was 13 into my

perspective is is being able to I'll go back to the education use case it means being able to take a set of credits that I got from my college I left at 16 I left early but I get to take those credits and I get to use them to apply to a university in a different state in a different year because I've decided I want to go back to University those things are really hard to do through the existing administrative models that we have to the extent that not only do people struggle to get back into University because they can't pay the 10 or 15 that it costs to get their college to send the credentials to the university and for the University

processing but it also means that colleges are missing out on state-based remuneration about the addition of credits about the extension of someone's performance so if if a student goes to University the college gave them the credits to get them to University gets remunerated for that great result but unless those dots are connected then there's a loss of value there's a loss of potential lots of human potential but also real actually like you can measure this to lots of value to community colleges in the US so that's a really tangible example of where possibility enables live opportunities and money in the system

yeah that's we hold that thought because one of the things I want to come back to once we get through all these fun idealistic principles is who's going to pay for all of this but we'll come back to that in a minute so step on do you want to talk about portability or more more affordability which is uh uh in the market it's a mostly enabled by the double really deep so for me this is quite close to the two terms now I think the probability is also the possibility for one user to use this credential on different channels I think it's very important that I'm not stuck just with my with my uh with my um with my wallet on the mobile I can use it also on on a laptop and so on and that's that this is

on the one hand really important the possibility to use it in full in different way and the second one is uh of course possibility to delegate is uh it's super frequential meaning that I want to give a possibility for a child to to do to give to use the earthquake potential for the parents for example or if I wanted to give possibility for for a bank to have access to different information on a permanent way I think this is also part of the portability which is really important so uh unportability uh one of one of the important aspects that that we see about

uh verifiable credentials or verifiable data is that you can actually take the data away from the issuer and present it in your own context and this is like we talked like to return to the you know the Facebook and Google um example there's we have so much data there you can actually export it and I've tried and there's a lot of data uh as in a completely incomprehensible massive Json file if I remember correctly that no one can ever make sense of and actually has zero value to anyone except Facebook because I could take this to go to someone else let's say let's say there was an amazing Fantastical data in that Facebook data

that would mean that I could get a fantastic you know minus five in percent interest loan or something like that you know outside of the context of Facebook where Facebook is verifying it through you accessing that data through one of their apis it has zero value because it's not verified because the verification just happens because you're going through Facebook it's an intermediary now if you can get that data out as verifiable credential data we for example we do this at another event where every single data element every single action anyone does every single change of state creates a new metaphobic credential

which means that our customers always have access to this data that they can use for you know for their own record keeping purposes Etc to prove the different actions that their employees or their processes have done so it's a really it's a really important thing that you actually with using this these digital signatures that are attached to a verifiable credential you can actually make this data useful in some respects and uh and that's you know through the part of the the portability the point affordability aspects of of these things okay I was going to say that's that's a great point that I've heard from the

panel is that not only does the data have to be portable but portable in a way that's understandable and meaningful um so one of the issues that we're all familiar with and I referenced in the intro is consent so once we put our data out there we don't know what's happening to it and who's using it and for what purpose so how does that change with SSI how do users have greater consent over their their data and their information I think Ellie is going to start us up sorry just a reflex here um but really since you own the day that the you can you're literally providing the data it's it's it's not that you're providing necessarily consent so if you

were if you're sharing data using using uh using Google you know to some app that you're logging into you are providing consent to Google to share this information there but one of the differences about self-summer identity is that you're not actually just providing consent you can provide consent to use it for some particular purpose but you're actually providing the data where in other use cases you're providing consent for a third party like Google to give their data to someone and that's a little bit it seems like it's the same but it's not really because we're providing the actual data to some to someone now to just

the other aspect of this because you're providing the data as part of this rather than the actual consent is that it's much more difficult to then take this data back where you could go in and revoke your connection with Google to to slack or something like that but once you've given this verifiable data to a third party you're given that data now it's a separate process that you have to go through it's not as easy to revoke that keep a comments on yeah I think the way that we experience consent most of us day to day is is there's some kind of legislative

legislative requirement for us to consent but we can't get what we want to get done without giving the concern so so the hotel as I stayed in here they maybe give a copy of my passport didn't really want to do that but at the same time I honestly put a pipe bench so you know what are you going to do I think I don't want to trivialize consent but one one non-trivial area where consent really Matt I think I think the definition of consent and as it relates to SSI that's been explained so I don't want to dwell on that for one subject which is massively affected by consent is mental health care in the US if you have a a mental health care condition and you

need to get treatment for that then you're seeing five different Specialists which is quite often the case then those five different Specialists come from different organizations then quite often what you're not doing is signing five times five for 25 different consent forms so that each of those different parties can communicate with each other about you so unless you've got a PhD in system architecture you're not going to be able to actually enable people to communicate about you in order for your well-being to be you know to be properly catered to that is that those consents are there for a very good reason we don't want people arbitrarily sharing data about our Mental Health

with parties that we don't want to share with so so there's a very good reason why hit the laws are in place but but consent can also again I'm coming to the value of SSI here there is a value to consent because if we connect each of those if we connect as individuals with each of those care providers and provide them the consent using digital tools like self-summer identity to allow them to communicate with each other digitally using secure protocols involving verifiable credentials then perhaps you unlock a mental health care revolution in a country that has apparently 50 of University students suffering some kind of mental health condition and a horribly overstretched Mental Health Care system so through space is very use case oriented this is

a use case that we're looking at very closely I think it's an absolutely fantastic one because of consent all right thank you and go do you have any comments on consent how it comes to life actually I don't have that um well you just implemented yeah he's a very far the connections actually you have to um it's uh the consent is sharing your data so more consent is probably not possible so that that's actually I think I wrote this uh this list uh he was probably thinking of what actually happens when I click log in with Facebook uh which is in a way a Content but I don't know what I actually consent to right because when the service and Facebook starts talking about me in a

way and they're sharing things about me which I maybe don't want to share and stuff like that so if I get control I have the consent automatically I think and secondly last comments on consent um more generally I think this is um the principles who has been defined are forming more guides guiding for examples and this is not so we've done something which is sacred it has to be fulfilled in any cases I think it's important I think it's a help you to find the best solution but certainly some use case where there is no application or what and it's okay I think it's it have to be important in which case which is the best attribute you want to use and our regarding content I think what another

part which is interesting is that uh you have this exercise possibility to combine some super credential taking some information from left and and right to combine this and this is also a way then to minimize the information that you have in a very very credential which is having only the attribute which is related to this case and after regarding the role business transaction you want to support to combine different verification to have a wall bunch of attribute that you use Global standards that allow us to be

interoperable so another principle is around transparency so how how does transparency work when we're talking about self-sovereign identity transparency in life tea or in anything about the internet should always start with Open scores so I think that this is a principle which in crypto body I think everyone uh also lives to or lives up to because uh you won't play rock with a wallet where you don't see the sauce right if you can't see the source of this problem you're traveling there and if you want to start happening so you don't want that so everything should be your own sourced that we're talking about the algorithm should feel so as the standards should be open source uh the audits where you hold your identity information like your did but also your

verify the credentials all that should be open source and that generates a huge loss of transparency actually on how the system works and if you have that then you can actually uh started working with them and you can start to trust a system because even though you may not be able to read the code there will be people out there who can read the code and if there would be something in the code which is not good for you that would be published somewhere and because of that probably the people who built the code will probably not even put these traps in there so uh this is actually a very very safe system which generates a lot of transparency and also a lot of security for everyone

transparency wondering whether I want to go head-to-head but then go ahead I think the the principle of transparency the wording there has been carefully selected they studiously avoid using the term open source and I don't think there is a I don't think there is an objective so I as an individual I have no objective issue with anything that's open source or anything that's closed Source I like to see the results of what's being produced and

I think that it's hard to build a successful model in some instances using an open source license so I think the transparency doesn't necessarily mandate the use of Open Source Technologies in the software and identity space I think it's it may partially be referring to perhaps a preference towards an open source strategy long term that these things once they're established and well you know well proven once the company behind them has an ability to defend their Market position and continue doing the good work that they were set out to do then open source should be part of the vision and obviously indicating crew

spaces Vision here a little bit but the I think the transparency is also in how we interact with services it's it's in the details of what's being asked for and what you're giving in return so when you initiate an interaction with a company they should tell you what information they need in order for you to achieve that user goal that's that's a transparent exchange of I'd like a contract someone tells you that you need to in order to receive this lending product you need to share these documents with this information and that's not going to be done through some API with some system that you don't understand or know much about and it's

going to be done peer-to-peer with you and so I think there are other elements to transparency other than other than this this open source piece and I don't have a problem with open source objectively but I think it's important to provide a defense also to Aid to the definition of transparency and B to close Source initiatives that can bring a great deal of value to this sure yes that's so that's how I work I pressed a button yeah so I kind of agree with both sides here and that that at the

the core level the core Tech the daily B open source and every company working in this space shouldn't necessarily go out and try to reinvent the wheel which is actually something that does happen quite a lot in the in the SSI space I think when we talk about interoperability there are 300 different I don't know the exact amount I'll just say 300 different did methods because every single consulting company or software company wants to create their own DND method which is just not really need it in most cases and you probably don't need that many of them so I think the core aspects of the

core libraries core infrastructure should be open source and that makes sense um but then of course businesses need to operate on top of it and anything like um RDA the did methods and all the the software that we use for actually uh creating verifiable credentials itself and verifying them as well that's all open source it's actually libraries that are part of the of the diff the decentralized identity foundation with the set of libraries and we would never write our own it doesn't make any sense unless we just wanted a nice branded

that method which we don't um but our own software is not open source and I mean we settle into institutions and as part of settling into institutions there are many many different requirements for them to go in and and use us so we're going through like many different security Audits and all of these kinds of things because we provide a very different service we're providing a service to a specific institution as opposed to the ecosystem as a whole if you will so there's a very different kind of thing and that's that's our that's our business uh so you do need those those aspects but I actually really do like like uh you know what you're mentioning

about transparency the use of data and I think this is this is one thing that's uh the crypto industry as a whole and society as a whole I guess we should be better about asking you know be transparent about what we want and what we want to use this data for and this is not just you know the wider space but crypto the crypto industry is particularly you know like to talk about transparency stuff but we also particularly opaque about about the actions that our users do so I think in the crypto industry we can probably show a much better example to the rest of the world as well

on that I'm being transparent so I agree with Billy and I I think that is difference between between the basis infrastructure and the business basis technology is is a good example how the Swiss government is acting now for the new Aid saying that for the trust infrastructure every software should be open source which will be a possibility to enhance their trust from the from from the people into the infrastructure and to you at the acceptance of the aid in the first notation there was a lot of

um a lot of people were afraid about this and having the academy having the the multiple of these and I think it's a good way with this transparency with open source to enhancements of the population and that's a great reading to the final question that I'll ask the panel and then we'll turn to the audience for any audience questions but so that I I mentioned this before but who's going to pay for all of this how how the we as an industry make money bringing self-solver and identity to the digital world go ahead later I don't think it's it's that complicated if there are businesses that want to you know do

business make money do all of these kinds of things they're quite happy to pay for for the benefits once they see once they see that uh I don't think end users in the foreseeable future will be paying specifically for most of this kind of Technology even though sometimes you you hear idealists saying that that's the right way of doing it and maybe perhaps that is the right way of doing it just like today I go in and you know I just received at the new brand new Apple watch I can put on my phone today I bought that myself with my own money you know so maybe in the future if someone will pay for some kind of like

cool new SSI wallet with some very specific cool features that I could use to show everyone that I have a cool cool wallet right but um um yeah I think businesses will pay for it I don't think government should pay for it maybe some for some core credential issuance and certain countries it makes sense but uh businesses are perfectly happy paying for identity technology and identity use cases right now why not let them continue to do so we're also happy to invoice people for now I think our actual the reality I always say that if there is a an added value people are really are willing to pay so for example at Carlos here we are

heading to use The Ledger that we we use and we publish our um our welfare credentials so she's came up for example or the verifying and issuing software that you're using and there is because of Association we believe that it's important and it brings lots of value for this I think there is if there is a business value there is people willing to to pay on the other hand um if you want to to Really push censor immunity and to be really a possibility to be a vibrant ecosystem of the Republic credentials to within all

the the layer of the society and then the idea of the AI in Switzerland that the government will pay for the basic infrastructure which is similar to the government paying for the streets and and the highways and all the pieces on top will be paid priority yeah I would say it's a when you look at the vif the people who actually think um identity all the time there's 300 companies in there they're all profitable or at least for profit uh so apparently two very different things so they probably wouldn't do this investment like working like five years in those working groups if they wouldn't

have a plan so but those plans are totally different so if you are doing infrastructure you have a totally different plan than if you do applications right and if you do wallets then you probably have another plan and I said there's so many different aspects where you can actually earn money there and I think everyone has to find their own for it but there are many so otherwise there wouldn't be 300 companies yeah I I I think that I think that possible perfectly you could have you can apply such a range of business models to the to the architecture is also of an identity one one interesting just to kind of um share a possibility one interesting

idea is this notion of a credential economy where an issuer is remunerated for the credential that they have issued to an individual when that individual shares it with another organization so that the verifying party gained some Advantage by verifying information about about who I am and the issue of the credential who's gone to all that effort either to you know you know and help me as an online customer or acquire me somehow as a customer they get remunerated when the date of the day 2B is verified that's quite an interesting model from America I would say it's actually much easier actually because in the real world we are very much used to pay for credentials so if you lose your passport

and you want to get a new one you pay for the effort that they have of building the new one so yes and and credentialing or issuing credentials is a much bigger business case than you normally see because also like the whole publishing industry is actually nothing else but credentialing so there's an article and then they put a brand on it this brand is the of the newspaper obviously attack on something this is actually a credential which is issued to the article so you can basically look at many many different Industries out there and they are living off credentialing of creating verifiable credentials and there's billions and probably trillions out there made every year in issuing credentials so the amount Market of

issuing credentials is one of the biggest markets in the world I would say and I think SSI potentially adds a multiple to that because it's not just the pay for the issuing it's the verifier of the credential that's been issued remunerating the issuer down the line and that is a reusable credential it could be reused 100 times a thousand times so there's a possibility for micro opinions I mean this is this is potentially becoming a reality pretty soon with a network got checked but they're doing great work on building to economics into software identity Network um so yeah these models can be real so yeah I'm I'm skeptical about many of

these particular use cases um I mean definitely there is real economic value you know in issuing your credential and and if there are ways where you know certain high value credentials like an identity credential or something like a you know when I say an identity credential like a let's say you're on Fido or one of these identity verifiers verify who you are or better yet a government entity directly there's some real value in that particular credential but many of the other use cases once you're sharing that information with someone it's there are some of the traditional economic economical ways of making money from this credentialing was

by just limiting control the issue or limiting control and then we're kind of you know breaking some of these SSI principles really the I think we should also kind of look away from a little bit from the idea of individual credentials because I think you know with the real data today as far as it is you know the hundreds of thousands of data elements or millions of data elements that exist about every one of us that's where the real value is because this is real actionable data and but from an individual point of view

neither of those data elements have a particularly large amount of value even like if I just share my my data and I think I'm a pretty interesting guy you know sharing my data is also you know it's probably worth it in most use cases you know sense or it's definitely not worth a lot because the real you know everyone says data is worth a lot but it's a scale it's a massive scale and neither of us are particularly massive scale So within the SSI Community uh there's been a lot of initiatives about this people are going to make so much money by sharing their credentials except that you know every single instance of these kind of things is like a lot of people making like

three cents a year or maybe if they like particular fantastic two dollars or two francs or something like that fantastic you know this is really what I want to do where the actual real value is not the economic selling of the credential it's what do you get for that so it's getting access to something that's way more interesting so having a credential that I can use to go in and open a bank account because I want to attack that's way more important to me than being able to make you know a fraction of a cent by sharing this credential to them and this is I think that where the real value of of this starts coming in when we start

looking at sharing large amounts of data to be able to get increasingly better things in return for it yeah I think we're actually saying very much the same thing probably no no I I'm not saying that individual is remunerated yeah for showing their credential that really would be hard to make money like that I agree it's that the issuer of that credential is able to be remunerated when it is verified by you know just 10 million customers each sharing a credential for verification and their their potential models there yeah okay a great one is like yeah that is that is a use case for for definitely in some some real world use cases like in that in the short term there may be

some value like that just like on video charges uh you know a dollar or so for each certification that they do when you open the bank account however it would be really careful with this kind of business because it's breaking the one of the principal rules of SSI and what else the advantage to have a Chinese wall between issue and verifier and this is exactly what we want to achieve and to be good right off of the Google ID and Facebook because I don't want that high issue knows that I have access to this service so for this reason I would uh be careful because it could be confusing for them the very nature of SSI means that the

issuer doesn't know which party is they don't know which individual is using which credential with which party they just know the micro Agreements are coming in so it's not you can't tie it's really this is really important to clarify here because I do think that there's a model and I think particularly interesting in less less developed markets there's a model here but but I think you don't break the Chinese wall that's really really important it's still the user in control of which other party they share the data with the data that they're sharing is one that they own it's on their device their control with party they're shared with after they've received it and the receiving party doesn't know sorry the issuing party doesn't know who the receiving party is so I I just

want to be clear but that's not not reached and we are rapidly coming up on our time here and I do want to leave um some opportunity for the audience to ask any questions they have for the panel so feel free to uh shout out your questions and if we have any questions online drop those into the chat and we will get to our representative here in the room to to ask them out perhaps okay all right so there's a question I discovered the SSI problematics did the work of biology xcoo of coinbase an author of network State what would you recommend as a first practical step for a beginner newcomer with the concept

consumer or business hard to say to say would you recommend this first practice one I would I would say consumer yeah well if I can if I can take it if it was if it's somewhat I mean I would take it as being someone looking to start developing getting you know just like someone looks to get into this area or something like that um at least that's my reading of of the question I'd say start to look into use cases and not so much trying to reinvent The Veil The Wheel for the 300th time which is what that

typically happens when people discover SSI it's a it's a reinvent everything again and again and again look into use cases because this is actually where where I think there's most value there's most you know real ways to innovate and make a difference think through actual business use cases and then how do you apply SSI to that that I would add a look into what's already there because lots of things are already there and then you don't really read that so if you have a cool business case there's tons of software out there which is so sorry uh which you can which you can use which doesn't require you to

pay for it uh and uh that's that's going to speed you up extremely go ahead um how much progress do you think we've made over the past let's say five years in terms of consumer understanding of what the SSI is and what can we make for the next five years to change the dynamic let me let me repeat that question so how much progress have we made over the last five years in terms of General understanding of the industry and how much progress can we expect in the next five years as well I think if the conversations that I have with my family still are entering the prediction not a not a great deal in

terms of the understanding of what else have an identity is and why it's valuable I don't think we need people to really understand it I think because technology implementers and people are more concerned with the infrastructural there we have to make these Solutions available in such a way as people don't even know that interacting with self-certain identity and it's a roundabout way of saying I don't think we've made a great deal of progress with consumers understanding what SSI is I think the what was that for your question what can we expect in the next five years are you answered yet you say we don't need to do anything um I agree with you actually the end

user shouldn't know that there is SSI behind so actually using a covered certificate people doesn't know all of them to pick here behind so they don't care about that so we have to find the way that people don't don't smell the technology behind and this is one of the challenge for the acceptance of exercise definitely that will make it really accessible this is all the things that we have observed in our project that the acceptance of the people is quite key and it's important to to think so how people that even if there is some some patterns with SSI which is important

functions the whole connection is built for example that is okay how we want the people want to have a connection made for example and this is we have to change also um the way we perceive this technology and take the glasses of our end user yeah it's you know I I think I'll Echo some parts where in some ways like most users have no clue what SSI is and then you know I'll also agree that they shouldn't have to but there are some areas where SSI is being used like most Apple users they use SSI every day without realizing it because I believe Apple health is actually based on around SSI technology even standard space SSI

technology is just hidden behind a app where people don't know that that's what they're using there's a bunch of the you know their implementation probably wouldn't you know it's principles but the core technology is there and there's a real use case and it's actually doing what it's supposed to do because people have access to their credentials so they can share with their doctors or or whatever they have that data in there using it so I think actually it's a fairly good use case for them right um and this is you know to kind of repeat what I answered to the to the previous person focus on use cases on business cases because it's just always very difficult when there's a technology

that is so exciting for those of us who are building it and we are we forget the idea that we actually need use cases I mean and talk about crypto you know this is you know we are this is our original singer in some respects right and it's the original so many other of the early internet I remember rambling around explaining tcpip to people on the street and you know what who cares not everyone uses it right and that's really where it has to go I didn't go we got standardization which sounds totally boring but is absolutely key to success so this was was what was made in

the last five years also uh I think we see uh some infrastructure which is already there which can be used which makes it more accessible and we see some industrial adoption like apple but also others uh which actually use the stuff now and uh I think this is just the beginning so I think in the next five years we will actually see big deal um uh industrial adoption probably not governmental governments will take a little bit longer um I think this this thing like SSI this will grow from industry into government and not the other Iraq everybody thinks of the uh of the ID cards uh business case and that apparently is not what the

governments want so they we will have to look at industry first because industry can build business cases on top of that that's much more interesting um and then at one point governments will understand okay this is not understand that okay we have to adopt it this is the way it will improving people and then if you get the last word and then I think we need to uh wrap up here do you mind if I run a quick poll go ahead okay because I think it's a good uh litmus test with an audience like this how many raise your hand if you would make a decision about a product or a service on the basis of privacy if privacy was greater for that product or service without effects whether or not you

choose that service over the substitute for those of you online the vast majority of people in the room have raised their hands so that so how many of you use Tech talk so I think I think we've probably represent the point zero one percent whatever it is but I I do think that this is a I think privacy is a value proposition is an increasingly big deal and I say I've been amazed to see recently I was driving across the Westway in London which is one of London's busiest roads and there was available

uh Samsung's latest phone nice picture of phone more cameras that you can shake a stick at and privacy as the leading value proposition for Samsung's new phone on the busiest Road in London I think that is a pretty big moment for anybody to work in the closed industry and that is an absolutely wonderful comment to wrap up on so thank you for that thank you very much to all of the past the panelists for joining us tonight thank you to the crypto Valley Association for sponsoring this event thank you to City lass for hosting us and most of all thank you so much to all of you in the audience for joining us for this really interesting talk about our future of digital identity so