SEC TOKENIZATION EXEMPTION! Avalanche Summit Day 2: Bullish Rate Hike!

Transcript

17 floor. We'll see you around the timeline. Feels good to be back. >> I think the rollup is one of the most premier >> And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. Heat.

Heat. Heat. Heat. Hey, hey hey.

Roll up is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup. Number Uh, zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the

golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. >> Hey, that's day two. >> Day two. Tokenization exemption live. >> Cash making new highs, >> dials, >> bullish, bullish rate, >> everything ripping. >> And uh we've got a big big show today. Let's get some sounds, man. Let's get some love for the audience. >> Absolutely incredible. Huge day. Uh we're coming off a great day one here. Slammed. Yeah. I mean, we were back to back the entire time. It was incredible. >> Uh now we're coming at you guys from day two and we've got a full slate. Lots of Avalac uh Avalanche personnel. And then of course the big guy, Mr. Ori is going to join us.

>> Minutes away. >> Yeah. In 15 minutes. >> All right guys, here's what happened. Wait, Rob, finish off finish off your intro here. What's go what else is going on? >> I mean, look, guys, we're gonna we're gonna wrap up a huge week here. Obviously, we started off uh Monday with the Hunter Biden interview. You guys all saw that was absolutely incredible to just kind of start off the week with a bang. We follow that up with the Cloer vote. Clarity Act obviously not reaching Cloer on Tuesday. Sure, an unfortunate loss for the industry, but in the wake of Clarity Act not going through Cloerure, we get SEC tokenization.

They were always prepared for this. They were in the position where they were going to be doing rulem anyway, whether it was enacted by Congress or not. >> And here they are ready >> and prepared to to push the industry forward from the SEC regul. >> Let me tell you guys about this. So, we got word from our sources about 10 12 days ago that the Clarity Act was very unlikely to pass. However, what was very likely to pass was the SEC tokenization exemptions imminently. We we basically got word that chairman Paul Atkins was ready to fire at the hip from the moment the clarity did not pass. Here we are couple days after and chairman Paul Atkins has fired. They issued an order granting temporary conditional exemptive relief to tokenized securities venues from the definition of an exchange in the Securities Exchange Act to trade

national market system stock using innovative permissioned permissioned automated market makers and liquidity pools. This is all on chain. This is tokenized stocks onchain. The initial implementation is live now and basically what Paul said was that they are taking a big step forward within their authority to bring America's capital markets into the digital age by facilitating onchain trading of certain tokenized stocks. Uh while this innovation exemp exemption is temporary, this would allow tokenized securities venues to trade tokenized NMS stock in a permission environment today.

While the commission considers the need for additional action to facilitate onchain trading and that's the headline, guys. This is the floodgates opening. This is the day one. Yeah, >> this is the day one of the SEC coming out and saying we are going to bring tokenization to the American capital markets. We're starting here and we are going to facilitate more onchain trading as a result of this rumor mill hits again again. And just to put the cherry on top for you guys, we have reason to believe from our sources the CFDC is actively working on Perpetual's futures rules that will be coming out imminently in a matter of days, not weeks. That will bring per rules on chain in the

United States of America. Ladies and gentlemen, we have the two most active agencies working side by side to bring the digital asset industry forward. It's happening today. We're here in New York City. We got Kevin Olirri in 15 minutes and we're going to get this party started. Rob, >> and just a few things to say before we bring up our G uh first guest, Justin, which is that, you know, obviously Kraken and Hyperlid have partnered and Kraken is going to be delivering Hyperlid to the US and they are a US-based company. So, obviously, they have an inside scoop on whether or not this is permissible. They're going forward with this and so we have reason to believe that we will see regulation from the CFTC on pers in the US.

>> Yep. >> You also mentioned two very important things as part of Paul Atkins release with this tokenization exemption. One of them is that these are permission systems. Why is that important? Because KYC AML needs to be enforced in order for these securities to be bought and sold by US customers. That is required by a permission system and that is implemented at the asset level. The fin final thing here is that >> this is a temporary exemption. Why is that important? Because at a practical level, a regulatory agency isn't going to want to give exemptions with an unrestricted scope. >> This is because they are likely to get sued regardless. And the larger and the scope, the harder it is for them to defend. So if this was an infinite unrestricted scope, they

would get sued and it would be very hard for them to defend because it's temporary with a restricted scope. It is more likely that they will be able to justify this if they are sued by any state attorney generals. We expect that this is going to go through. Right now it's in the comment period, but we anticipate that this is going to go through and it is going to foster innovation and adhere to the SEC's mandate by Congress. Guys, we're going to get into our first guest. We've got Justin Kim of Ava Labs. Justin, welcome to the show, Justin. >> And congratulations on Avac Summit. It's a pleasure to have you. What is your reaction? Day one yesterday, day two today. What are you most excited about? >> So, I'm vice president of international business development at Aval. So, we have like 15 to 20 people just traveling

15 hours just to be here at Summit, right? So, my my feedback and and some comments from my partners that are traveling, they they feel even more committed to build on Avalanche. seeing all the partners that are coming up with the announcements uh you know providing quality information. So this is great exciting moment to be here. >> Absolutely. And so we've talked a lot about what tokenization looks like in the US because we covered clarity at length today. We got SEC tokenization exemptions. So what is this like abroad in APAC and other regions? What is the tokenization journey look like? Because we've heard conflicting things. Some jurisdictions seem to be ahead of the US, some seem to be behind the US. Where is the rest of the world in relation to

the US on tokenization? >> Yeah, I mean, we're talking about what a lot about what's happening in the US. Maybe it's it's a great time to take a look at aside like what's happening outside the US, right? So, uh just two weeks ago on September 4th, Korea just released their tokenization framework and there there two things, right? they they're very open in terms of assets you can tokenize and they also talk about which infrastructure you can use to tokenize these assets and offer to uh institutions and retails right and they actually name three blockchain infrastructures avalanche hyperledger basu and hyperledger fabric right so I think avalanche comes in here beautifully because avalanche is the only permissionless chain where you can also build a dedicated network where you have control over like participation

governance privacy and performance. So I think uh I mean we're really in in the midst of making these things happen within the framework between countries and markets. >> Very very cool. >> That's awesome. Yeah. I mean look I mean there's been the global adoption of this all over the place. The US is actually behind in the regulatory front. Um Asia's ahead in terms of use case. Latin America is ahead in terms of use case and and adoption. It's actually these more emerging markets that are benefactors of this technology, right? I mean like stable coins, remittances, payments, all these things are far more beneficial. Talk to us about what Avalanche's key strengths are in the global market. What does that exactly mean to Avalanche? >> Yeah, I would love to talk about this.

So, uh, within the international business development at Aval. So we are actually uh doing quite a few things and we're we actually go into our partners' office and do a lot of things and basically that includes first we identify where blockchain can help them and then we develop a business use case and then we bring partners together uh on ecosystem to make it happen and deliver to market. So I think I don't know you probably have heard of Hyundai motor moving their you know funds across different countries on avalanche. I think that is a great illustration of what we're pursuing. So that's Hyundai Motor, that's Hyundai Card, and that's Tether and XM, our payment infrastructure provider on Avalanche. And everything happens on Avalanche,

right? So this is beautiful partnership that we're trying to bring together between this multinational corporations, enterprise, and institutions. >> I I think this is a great example. >> I love it. >> And you know, obviously, uh, Hyundai is a Korean company, but they deliver cars worldwide. And so it is a global company at its heart. Talk to us about how blockchain helps companies like Hyundai enable new business workflows and move money more efficiently than otherwise possible. >> Yeah, exactly. So I want to just briefly go over what happened and what it means for Avalanche, right? So what Hyundai did was basically just move their internal treasury funds from a bank. So it's actually USD fiat deposit within a bank in the in America. Mhm. >> So Hyundai Motor America is moving their

US dollar from a bank to a bank in Mexico >> ended up as fiat deposit but in the in the part where the money is in transit we use tether right so it's basically uh 3 4 hours sometimes depend depending on the corridor it's like 7 days 10 days right but everything happens under seven minutes with all these partners coming together >> so uh it took and I also want to emphasize uh The conversation was about two three years. Yeah. It didn't happen overnight, right? So, uh we spent a lot of time figuring how blockchain can help them. So, it means for avalanche. So, we're really going after hard treasury management, right? This this is about moving funds across different countries. This is about uh you know managing idle

capital and making investment to tokenized financial products that we already have in Avalanche. >> Incredible. Justin, thank you so much for kicking off our show today. incredible work that you're doing so far with all of these global partners. We're going to get on another one of Avalanch's partners right now. I know is going to join the show. Thank you so much. >> Great work out there today. >> We'll see you again soon. Thanks, Justin. >> Guys, bring Mr. Wonderful. We're ready for you. >> Wonderful. >> Thanks. >> We're going to bring him up. >> Great to see you. Looking very Canadian today. Kevin, if you can come around this way if that's okay.

>> All right, guys. >> We're going to bring up Mr. Wonderful. The shark, Kevin Olirri. Uh, you guys are obviously familiar with him. Uh, Kevin Olirri is chairman of Oly Ventures. He's a shark on Shark Tank wearing the attire today with an MLB card. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Go for it. Absolutely. >> How you doing, Kevin? Great to have you. >> King of content himself. Thank you very much. >> Fellow Canadian. You're from Montreal. We are the uh >> I was born in Montreal. I love that city. a little cold for me these days. So, I live in Miami. >> All right. >> Okay. I'm not too far. I'm in Naples, Florida. So, we're right there. The rollup headquarters south. And what what is that you got around your neck there? >> So, I thought I'd bring it to this conference because there's been so much discussion within the sports sector,

multi-billion dollar sector, and collectibles, one of the asset classes. This is the U now famous Otani, one of one. Uh, we our syndicate paid $11 million for this last week inside of a a Tiffany one-of-a-kind holder. You know, Logan Paul started this thing. He had a discount chain. I'm raising it. >> I got it. I got it. >> Yeah. And this thing has friends that are into this. I got to take a picture. There we go. Let's go. >> 110 110 carat of Tiffany diamonds, 2 and 12 lb 2.2 lbs of white gold and then all these rubies that match my journ watches.

>> You're a two watch. Show the camera, Kevin. Show the camera. >> Hold it way up. Hold it way up. Show the camera. One of one Otani around his neck. Why? Because this asset class should be on chain. >> I agree. >> And it is on a chain right now, but it's it should be on blockchain for a lot of reasons. For actual asset management, but also ownership. Get know we get deep.

We get deep. We get deep know. >> So if we would fractionalize that through tokenization, everybody would had that appreciation. They could have policy. >> Yeah, absolutely.

>> I agree, man. I mean, look, we got this SEC tokenization exemption today, Kevin, which I'm not sure if you heard this news. Basically, they're just starting their initial implementation of tokenized equities. But I just kind of want to go a bit more broad because you're you're very clearly educated about this concept of tokenization. I've been watching you with my parents since I was maybe eight on the show. They're both Canadian. They're from Alist in Northern Ontario. Big fans. Mr. Wonderful here. What are you doing here, Kevin? What is your involvement and your belief that you'd be willing to spend your time and invest your capital into the crypto ecosystem into this kind of larger trends? What are you really seeing here? What's your vision for what this industry could become throughout your career? You, you know, huge wins.

Could this be another big win for you? >> So, the way I view this whole digitization of the economy, including all the way back to the Genius Act, which gave us stable coins, they're now legal tender, is that this sector, if you want to call crypto or digitization a sector, will become the 12th sector of the S&P because it services all 11 other sectors. And so in investing in it, in my investment thesis is no more than 5% in any one stock, no more than 20% in any one sector. And we've had positions as high as 23% in crypto during you know the last seven years as we've gone into various positions. So my new investment theme now is okay which I originally thought as a long a lot of other investors did let's say 18 months ago that you only needed two positions you

needed BTC and ETH cuz that they captured 97% of the entire volatility and that was under the assumption that everybody would standardize on Ethereum every sector that has not happened for various reasons and so Now investors like me and many others I see many guys I know here that are involved in this sector as investors are saying wait a sec we're wrong about ETH being standard and maybe it's too slow maybe whatever people aren't happy who's next like what other chain is going to get adopted so it now looks like sectors are going to choose their chains and become standardized on those and that's why people that's why this conference is packed people are

trying to figure out where does Avalanche fit in this new doctrine of sectoral preference. So if it's going to be used, if you told me that all the sports teams are going to tokenize collectibles on a on avalanche, yeah, I'm going to do mine on Avalanche. You know, people go into where the momentum is. So I'm I'm waiting to hear and I'm and so is everybody else. I find it interesting that speaking before me is a guy from an exchange like ICE. >> I mean that's where the industry is now Kevin. I mean we've been >> what's he doing here?

>> I know right man. I mean we spoke to folks >> that you mentioned earlier >> from Broad Ridge from large institutions. >> Does that signal anybody that maybe he's thinking about Avalanche? >> Exactly. >> Like I don't know but that >> I looked through the guest list I said what the hell is he doing here? >> Yeah. It's like as soon as I see him, I'm going to ask him. >> Well, President Trump said hyperlquid on national TV a couple weeks back, right? Obviously, from the highest level of power, they're trying to bring these products into the US. Privacy has been a massive categorical winner in the industry. Zcash has been absolutely flying, the best performing asset. There are sectors now, Kevin, in this industry that I think didn't previously exist.

I'm just curious, you know, you speak about your kind of portfolio allocations here. What would make you go bigger into the crypto industry? I know you're, you know, you've been heavily invested into AI, into a lot of uh kind of broad consumer sectors. What would make you go bigger into digital assets? >> Adoption. Use case adoption. If you told me an exchange adopted one of these chains, I'd be all over that. the values of those of those tokens will go through the roof because that is going to be the platform by which tokenization is supported on that exchange. That's the next big thing. So, who's going to get it? Which chain's going to get it? And and everybody, not not just me, everybody's trying to figure this out. I don't think it's going to be Ethereum

anymore. I don't think it's fast enough. I don't think it's secure enough. I that's an opinion, my own opinion, but clearly they would have had it already. And so they didn't get it and they but you know most of the of the um anything to do with stable coins they're probably 50% of all transactions on stable coins but that's not going to work for stocks. You can't wait 6 minutes for a stock. You need you need price discovery and boom you got to do the trade. >> And so when you're when you're looking at constructing a portfolio this plays a significant role in that portfolio. We had someone come on and basically describe this radical portfolio theory because it seems like we're moving away from 6040 bonds and stocks. We're moving towards alternative asset classes.

You're wearing one around your neck. And so, how do you think about alternative asset classes and investments? How do you think the modern portfolio should look? >> Yeah. Well, you're 100% right. I I'm just one investor, but I am not 6040 anymore. 15 years ago, I was 6040. alternatives are already 23% of my portfolio including stuff like this, >> you know, but for me it's it's I'm looking for my two basic themes in in in right now, for example, AI. Yes, I want to be an AI, but I don't want to guess which model is going to win. So my thesis is to go back to the picks and shovels of AI and say I'm just going to invest in power. You can't do AI without power. You can't do anything without power. So the investments there that

were considered alternatives 5 years ago was bit zero. It was private. It works in Norway and Finland. Now it's public on the on the NASDAQ, but it has contracts in Norway and Finland on land power fiber permits. And it doesn't it used to be a Bitcoin miner. It doesn't do it doesn't care about Bitcoin. It cares about power now. In Alberta, I have a power project uh that's private. Utah power project. I'm building I'm going power. Finally, for the first time ever, I have a position in uranium, the actual commodity, >> because the next big thing in the next few years is going to be small modular reactors that aren't like the same ones of nuclear submarines for power generation all over the grid in the US. You can't run those without uranium. You might as well buy the picks and shovels of that strategy, which is the commodity

uranium itself. >> Sure. >> So, I'm long uranium. I've never been long uranium before. And so Kevin, when you think about the possibilities in the TAM of digital or you call it this digitization trend, right? Um we're speaking about all of finance kind of modernizing, right? And so this is a massive market. There's repo, there's forex, there's equities trading, there's bonds. It's massive. There's going to be winners in this digital asset industry. Obviously kind of you've got this king of Bitcoin. People are, you know, they still call for a million dollar Bitcoin. First, I'm curious. Do you think Bitcoin will ever hit a million? If so, when?

And second, if this whole thesis plays out, this tokenization digitization thesis, who is going to win the most and who will lose in the in the current era? >> Well, it's a great question and here's my answer. everything you talked about in financial services including BTC in terms of the allocation of the volatility of that pricing. You you buy BTC and you are exposed to all in pricing but the big winner of all of that is going to be the chain that standardizes the exchanges. Like that's who is it going to be? Whoever gets that is going to be the biggest winner and the biggest

losers will be the other chains that didn't get that for whatever reason. I mean, somebody has to make a decision on what they're going to standardize on. And I would have said 18 months ago or last, you know, July it looked like ETH didn't happen. But that that's not going to happen until after the clarity passes. I don't think uh you know on a on a partisan basis that we're going to give this administration a win by passing clarity, but I think they'll go through the midterms and then we'll look at it again because on a bipartisan basis they have to pass it. But the answer to your question is show me the chain that gets the first exchange. >> Yeah.

>> And then watch what happens the value of those tokens. >> Yeah. We have maybe less than 30 seconds. Rapid fire. Will Bitcoin ever hit a million? It will if it can resolve the doubt creeping in around quantum computing, you know, breaking the algorithms and the chain and the encryption. Um, they call it Q day. It's another theme out there as investors. Some people are putting on a counter bet by investing in some of these nasent companies that are developing quantum computing software. It's a security play and that's also on the chain. So, you know, there's a lot, this is why everybody's back at Avalanche conference. There's so many themes, you know, you feel you feel the energy in here. It's big.

>> AI slow down. >> AI slow down. >> It's not going to happen. There's no way there's going to be AI slow down. So, you let the Chinese beat everybody? Are you kidding? It's never going to happen. I mean, I love this. Uh, robots are going to eat all the babies. I mean, that's one narrative. The other is we're going to cure cancer. Yeah, I'm in the cure cancer camp. >> Kevin, I really appreciate your time. Last one. Who's your favorite shark on Shark Tank? And who is your least favorite shark? Well, everybody knows my favorite shark. It's Mr. Wonderful. I love that guy. I mean, all roads lead back to Mr. Wonderful. And I can't I I can't say who's my, you know, because because, you know, that's kind of negative for guys you work with. But, um, I will say this, and it's important

to show respect. The only reason Barbara gets to Shark Tank every year is I buy her a new broom. >> Kevin, thank you so much, man. >> Quick photo here, Kevin. >> All right, you got it. Thank you guys. >> Okay. Thanks. Thanks so much, man. It was a pleasure. Pleasure to see you, man. >> I loved you and Marty Supreme. >> That's great. >> I love Marty Supreme, too. I mean, I >> I wanted to ask you why you said you were a vampire and born in6001. >> Because I didn't feel that guy got away with murder and he should have paid a price. I wanted the ending and they considered it that in his 60s at a a Tears for Fears concert, I sit be behind him and bite his neck. That was actually insane.

>> He's an animal. >> I love it. I absolutely love it. >> Guys, thank you so much to Thank you to Nancy, a fellow Canadian. Spent her summers in the cottages. Love Perry Sound. Thank you, Ariel. Thank you, Margaret so much. And thank you, Kevin. >> Thank you so much. All right, guys. >> Awesome combo, Kevin. >> Thanks, guys. >> Wow. >> Oh my goodness. >> Uh that was bullish. >> That was that was incredibly bullish, guys. That was bullish. That was >> a little bit of tech hiccups, but uh I mean >> we got it done.

>> So much fun. >> We we we got it done quick. Got to the team in the back. Cleaned it up quick. >> Kevin's a great guy. >> Kevin's having fun. >> Loved him in Marty Supreme. >> Favorite shark on Shark Tank. He's got a one of one Otani. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Baseball card around his neck on a silver chain with rubies on it. >> Yeah. So, this is indicative of not only self- custody, but also the fact that we are seeing Hey, Brick, can I see the Polaroids? Sorry, Rob. That's perfect. He's That That's his style. I love it. Look at that, guys. Hey, zoom in there. Come on. Let's get Cam Cam one here. Look at that. >> Kevin Olgraph Polaroid. >> Guys, we're going from Hunter Biden to

Kevin Ol. >> That's going on that's going on the page. He literally signed on the photo. He like didn't want I I I'm so confused. All right, guys. That was a cool one for us. I mean, I've been watching this guy. >> That was fun, guys. We're just going to keep it rolling. We were going to hit a standby, but we're not going to hit a standby no more. >> No, we're good. Um, guys, market's flying. Uh, >> are you for real? >> Hypquid's at $83. >> Let's go. >> And I I know we're here. Uh but I couldn't help but think that when he was describing that the answer to the biggest uh winner of the market is going to be the exchange that all the large exchanges exchanges in stratifi trade on is going to be the winner. And I can't help but think about Hyperlquid and lighter. I I just couldn't help but

literally think to myself and I had to drop Zcash in there. I had to drop Hyperlid in there. He had to hear those two names today. I did it for you guys in the audience. I know you guys hold those assets and that was insane. I can't help but think he's talking about perpetual tokens that are going to dominate the future of what's going on. >> Um I can't help but think liquid and lighter and the other names. I mean he came out and said the winner of this market is going to be the person who is dominating the exchanges for all of the traditional financial players. Wherever they trade, those tokens are going to fly. He said that three times on the show.

>> Yeah. And I think it does show that there's still a lack of market sophistication because we're not going into the businesses that are specifically generating. >> He sounded >> he did sound he sounded like he spent a lot of time in researching this industry to understand it because he understands the opportunity and the trajectory of growth. But again, it just still reminds me how early we are >> because this game has not been won. I mean he's talking about how ICE is here, right? NASDAQ nice, right? are coming into the industry. Once they are here, we will start to see where those chips fall, but at this time it's still a very much an open game and it hasn't been won quite yet. And so that is that is what we're seeing play out. It means it's still a wide openen ball game. Maybe

it's the blockchains, maybe it's the applications, but there is going to be a shelling point for exchange activity. And I absolutely agree. I think right now perpetuals is all the rage. Hyperlid and lighter are capitalizing on a lot of that market share. We have chains like Avalanche. There's a reason why Kevin's here, right? Ethereum may have fallen by the wayside a little bit. May have prioritized stable coins, fallen a little bit on the exchange side of things, but we are seeing the chains and the exchanges that are starting to pick up steam in this tokenization revolution and they are in a position to capture market share with exchanges. And so guys, we are going we are going to hit a quick standby. We're going to get some things

reconnected and then we're going to be back and we've got a full slate of Avac Summit day 2 coverage. Stay tuned. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back in just a minute. We get deep. We get deep. We know we get deep.

We get deep. We get know we get deep. We get deep. We get know we get deep know we get deep. We get know we get deep know. We get deep. We get deep know. We get deep. We get we get deep. We get deep. We get we get we get deep, you know. When we get deep,

you know, we get deep, >> guys. Wow, that was awesome. That was so good. That was so cool. I mean, the card. So, he revealed a oneof one show Otani dual gold logo man card. They paid $11 million for uh his syndicate paid 11 million for this last week inside of a Tiffany oneofakind holder. Logan Paul started it. He had a discount chain. He's raising it. 110 karat of Tiffany diamonds. Insane. Insane.

Insane. What a fun show, guys. The market's ripping like, oh my gosh, Zcash just had 1430. Holy crap. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I'm gonna pull the screen up, Leo. Um, guys, Zcash at 14:30. Wow. All right, I'm gonna check the chat. I'm gonna check the chat. Checking, checking, checking. Uh, Hawk coins going to the moon. Get out of here, buddy. Changes every day. Stellar lumens, guys. NASDAQ on China. Good morning. How is Kevin pretending for quantum? Didn't Andy get wrecked with uranium? Yes. Yes, he did. Yes, I did. Women are going to want an engagement

ring with crypto in it. Yo, that's crazy. That's crazy. Little Miss Gun, bro, he was wrong on ETH. I I wish I had more questions. All right. So, I I just wish I had more time to be honest. Um, I would have asked them more. All right, let's pull the charts up. I mean, guys, this is nuts. I mean, look at this. I mean, I've never seen I've never seen anything stronger. I mean, this is just an insane chart. Like, absolutely nuts. I mean, look at this, guys. Like, are you like, wow. I mean, talk about a breakout, guys. Zcash looks ready for Look, I mean, I've had this chart drawn for a while.

Um, I'm not a a guru. I don't have a crystal ball. I'm probably not going to be 100% right on this, but I think I'm directionally correct. Uh the green circle I was just showing where I was allocating um you know earlier this year. I just think this train this train's not going to stop. Like I think we could get to 2K far sooner than people think and then I think from there, you know, there's a possibility that we go to three or five, but I think it's more likely that we get a pretty good pullback uh between the $1,800 to $2,200 range. Uh I think that would be a shocker. And I think Zcash is going to flip ETH quickly. It's pretty close. It's $1,000 away from flipping ETH. I think Zcash flips ETH quick.

Um, Purr, I just drew this little uh bull flag and it looks great, guys. I think we're going to get the breakout now on hype. I think this SEC news could send hype to 100. It's what we needed. Um, and I think PER is going to outperform. That's always been the PER thesis. Uh, this is one of my biggest positions. I have an um outsiz position on my net worth in PUR. Um, and yeah, I mean, if this one goes to the upper teens, I'll be trimming it. That's my current plan. Uh, if this goes to upper teens, I'll trim it. I think that would put hype over a hundred. And I'm going to rotate some of that profit into SpaceX. I don't own any SpaceX

currently. I feel very sidelined. I've been telling my my guy here, Alex, our longest stand rollup team member. Space SpaceX up 2% today. Um, I just want to get in for the long term. So, that's my plan next is to rotate some purr if we get that big hit on this breakout to SpaceX. That's what I think it's going to do well and I can rotate that in size um and get a good size position in SpaceX for I don't know. I talked to Dan Held. He told me to hold it for 20 years. He told me that SpaceX was going to be the biggest company in the world in 20 years. So, I'm just like, "Okay, he's a multi-millionaire. Probably eight, if not nine figs, took an hour of his day to talk to me about his

portfolio. Might as well listen to the guy." I mean, what am I going to do? Fade the guy. So, that's that's my plan on per and I just don't have that many positions. I'm, you know, messing around with Zcat, like whatever, like stupid meme. Um, that's actually public on FOMO, guys. I don't love that, but is what it is. Uh, obviously Zcash, you guys know the plan there. I mean, look, the plan with Zcash is generational wealth by never selling or certainly not selling too early and having the ability to stomach the volatility. That's the plan. That's the plan there. Uni's ripping. I bet it is, man. I bet it is.

>> I bet it is. Yeah, it looks great. Wow. 7% off the news. What's AVX doing? Is it Is it moving at all? All right. It's got some green candles in. Nothing crazy, but a good move off the lows here since start of the day. >> Yeah, guys. I mean, that's kind of my current plan. I mean, I think this looks ready for 100. >> Sorry, guys. I had to go buy more Tash. >> I I think this looks ready for 100, guys. Is that hype that you got? >> Yeah, I think that is I think this I think it's time I think it's time to go to 100 there. Um, so let's get Robbie back up on the screen. Robbie, good to have you.

>> Pleasure. >> Um, guys, we're ripping. I mean, >> did you say 1450? >> Yeah. I don't even I don't sound bullish enough just cuz I'm so tired from the week that we've had here. My voice is going I I I have a flight down to Fort Lauderdale tonight in about I'm going to head out of here in about 3 hours. >> We had about a 5 and 1/2 hour team dinner last night and me and Robbie were just yapping. >> At about hour 4, I said to myself, "Is Hy going to be on the show tomorrow?" Cuz his voice sounds cooked. >> I know. We were fired up >> and I just couldn't I couldn't get myself to interrupt him and tell him to tone it down because we were we were absolutely fired up. But obviously there's reason to be fired up because we are incredibly bullish. Probably not

bullish enough. I mean we've been oscillating between, you know, it's all over, we're so back, which puts us somewhere at the optimism hope phase. I I went on the record and I said that this is the final week of disbelief. We are finally past any sort of negative catalyst. We are back in pure animal spirit having fun just bewildering amusement because bad news is good news. For a while bad news wasn't news, good news wasn't news. Things were extremely apathetic and then it was like bad news isn't bad news. Now bad news is good news. A rate hike and we pump. Negative catalyst and we rip. And so things are absolutely incredible. We're just all

over the timeline. I know it's ripping. >> We are all over these markets. I mean, guys, where else would you rather be if not for the rollup live from Avalanche Summit? >> I mean, look, this tokenization exemption is so important because it is going to bring the absolute horde of assets and allocators into the onchain finance ecosystem. This is the moment of the floodgates opening. There is no reason to be bearish. You must be bullish and express that thesis on the tokenization mega trend. You as a portfolio allocator in the global macro environment. You need a tokenization bet or you are going to miss a massive trend.

>> Yeah, I I think that's right. And I think uh there's news and commentary and opinions and feedback all rolling in uh from this tokenization exemption. And so uh we are going to continue to deliver what you guys need to know about the tokenization exemption. I'm going to hand this to our producer behind the scenes. Thank you very much. >> Everyone's just It's kind of casual today, guys. We're just having fun. >> We're having fun. I mean, we're just relaxing, you know? >> How can you not have fun? Yeah, we're just >> you're looking at what's happening here and you're anticipating what's to come. How can you not be having fun? >> Uh, look, I hear you, man. I'm with you. >> Look, there's going to be winners and losers and so maybe people are still sidelined.

>> Yeah, >> with a Z. >> Sidelined. >> We're not sidelined over here, guys. Um, fantastic. Fantastic. I believe we have our next guest going to be joining us. Guys, it's going to be Morgan from Ava Labs. Andy's got some more to say. >> I can't believe Kevin Olirri literally whipped out an 11 million. Like, guys, can you believe that? He pulls up with an 11 million uh card and he's got 110 carats of diamonds on his neck and he he literally said, "We're going to put it on chain."

>> Like what? >> He's got a chain around his neck and he's putting it on the block. >> Liquidity his you got to know. Kevin's a smart guy, you know, he always is looking for his exit liquidity. I'm not saying anything against the guy. He's great, but he knows where to find his exit liquidity. Idiots on chain. >> And you think they're doing the same thing with equities? >> I don't know. I mean, kind of. >> Idiots on 30year bull run. Okay, let's tokenize all the equities and export them to the global market and then dump our >> our push back on the thesis though because >> you also heard him talk about the emergence of the alternative asset class. >> Yeah.

>> And so >> on one hand, sure it feels like there's no intrinsic value to Pokemon cards and baseball cards and so why are you going to have one around your neck, have an 11 million card. It feels like a top. it feels like you're looking for exit liquidity and you may go to another venue in order to find that. But on the other hand, >> on the other hand, it's an alternative asset class and they are certainly on the rise and the portfolio theory as it's typically been done is coming to a cataclysmic downfall.

>> Yeah, the traditional 6040 portfolio is dead. The radical portfolio theory is >> probably 80 20 alternative assets to traditional assets. Yeah. >> And and collectibles, sports card, Pokemon cards make up part of that 80% >> portfolio allocation to alternative assets. And so on one hand, sure, it feels like a local top, but on the other hand, you've got this very, very bottomup fundamentally driven >> modernization of the portfolio thesis that includes alternative investments. >> I love that. >> So, I can see it both ways. I mean, there's a there's a deep deep argument to be had there. Guys, we're going to bring up we're going to bring up the VP of onchain finance at Ava Labs. Morgan is going to be joining us. >> Yes.

>> She was instrumental in the RWA hub on Avalanche. >> Yeah. >> Oh, it's not Morgan. It's >> a treat. Good to see you, buddy. >> Casual. It's all right. >> It's casual Friday today. >> Come say hello. >> Yeah. Yeah. Come hang out, man. I'm taking your seat. >> All right. This is uh this is John, not Morgan. I was just coming to say hi. >> How are you, man? >> How's your Just give us your quick TR, thousand people watching today. Just say what's up. >> I feel like I'm in a wedding and it's my like I'm having backto-back days of a wedding, right? Like day two. Day one was amazing. We're excited for all the stuff coming on today. You guys had Kevin Olirri sitting here a bit ago. >> Me and him are going to have a chat in a little bit. >> He had an 11 million baseball card one

of one show Otani around his neck. >> He did. >> Yeah, he did. He's got a lot of good stuff coming. So, we're excited. >> Yeah. Avalanche tokenizer. Can can you tell us a bit more about like why Kevin Olirri, how that started and kind of what that kind of thesis is of like these larger entrepreneur investor types coming on chain. >> I mean, look, he has a really good he he's got his finger on the pulse of what like people really care about. He's both on the he's talking to the street on a daily basis. He's got a brand out there that talks to retail and consumers on a daily basis. I mean, Shark Tank is a global phenomenon in that regard. So he's got a key a like a keen insight as to what institutions and enterprises want but also retail and consumers and he's been crypto curious for the longest

time. Uh so me and him are gonna have a really good chat today. So I'll leave some of those questions for then. And I know yeah I know I took Morgan's seat so I'll let Morgan come back here right now. I just wanted to come and shake your hand. I didn't know you were alive. So hi everybody. >> I'll let you thanks for saying hey. >> We'll see you soon. John, >> it's casual Friday over here today guys. >> Casual Thursday. >> Hi. >> Morgan's got the red pants on. representing a friend. >> How are you doing, Morgan? Welcome to the show. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. Also, >> yes. Thank you so much, guys. Um Morgan, >> how are you feeling today? How's how's life? How's how's the summits? Like, >> take a breath, right? Like we're kind of at the place to sit.

>> Yeah. >> Um it's good. I mean, Avalanche Summit's always always great. Um but especially to have the first one in New York, uh is I think huge for us. And given the fact that we've been focused on institutional adoption, I've been here for gosh 5 years focused on bringing banks, asset managers, FMIs, >> yes, >> on chain onto Avalanche. And to have Summit really at the epicenter of financial services um is it feels really fitting and and it's exciting because you know all these worlds have been converging and it's exciting to uh to kind of finally see a lot of our efforts come to fruition. Well, I'll tell you what, Morgan. We had a lot of headwinds, regulatory headwinds. We've now got regulatory tailwinds. Your job just just became a lot easier as of today. Maybe not in practice, but you know, slowly but surely, we will see this SEC

tokenization exemption that was announced this morning start to permeate its way into all the things that you guys are doing on Avalanche and through your partner chains and networks. >> Just I don't know, how do you feel about this? Like finally, right? Clarity failed. It was so such, you know, sad. It was super annoying. And then it's like bang. >> Totally. I mean, this is just like the latest though, right? We had Genius. We had the new administration come in and I feel like it's just felt like such a 180 from when I first started. I started 4 days before Terara. So, my timing was impeccable. Um, and then they were like, basically, go get banks to use Avalanche. I'm like they don't want to touch public blockchains which actually worked out for us because we have you know private permission Dell lungs but

um really the evolution over the past 5 years has been incredible and it it was crazy in that when we had kind of the new administration come in it was a total 180 like banks were calling me being like now we have a mandate to build on public permissionless blockchains what are we going to do with you guys um so a lot of that groundwork had like really paid off um and then genius was really the next thing and And then at that point, everyone was, you know, thinking what is our kind of stable coin and digital dollar strategy? How are we going to incorporate stable coins in the in the context of our day-to-day operations? How do we offer these capabilities to our clients? And now with this latest uh kind of exemption again it's like another green light in terms of not just you know doing PC's for the sake of PC's but what

are we going to commercialize what are we going to productionize how are we going to roll it out to our clients and kind of bring blockchain based products and services to our existing clients and to our you know to to net new clients and so it's just been really great to have a front row seat and really drive that forward with them. One of the things that Kevin Olirri said when he was on the show just a little while ago was that Avalanche is one of the picks and shovels and you know he was kind of poo pooing Ethereum a little bit saying it kind of missed its chance and it didn't really have what it took to kind of become this shelling point of digital dollars. Yeah, he he really did. He's kind of saying that >> the script apparently you guys must have

given him the script >> and talking >> and and so I I guess what makes Avalanche unique like you guys have have embraced kind of this more institutional tokenization effort >> but at the same time is talking about you know tokenizing collectibles and some of these alternative investments. How do you guys tow the line? Like where do you find yourselves really succeeding in a particular set of use cases? Yeah. So, Avalanche, if you think about, you know, the ecosystem at large, largely speaking, a lot of the builders and teams uh deploying on Avalanche are less so like direct to consumer, retail, um, you know, crypto casino speculative type use cases. A lot of them have been B2B, B2B TOC where they are kind of plugging into existing fintexs, wealthtech platforms, neo banks, institutions that

already have more of like a web 2 customer base and distribution and enabling net new products for them, better products for them because they use blockchain that's like abstracted into the background. And so that is largely kind of what we're seeing across you know not not just financial services but a lot of the stuff even that we're doing in like sports entertainment um and the more of like the retail side most of those use cases are through um you know through the franchises themselves through the companies that in turn have that kind of more retail individual user base and so a lot of it has been again more of this like B2B B2B TOC and so um >> I think again like it's it's the industry is kind of >> coming around to what we've been focused on for a while and so it's exciting to

see that. >> That's awesome. And I mean now as you said right like the green light is on you guys have kind of like a very like a niche approach to from what you've said here kind of like a couple sectors that you're focused on but bigger picture here Morgan um you know what is the end of the year going to look like for you into next year like what is your northstar for adoption metrics or implementation details or integrations like what needs to happen for you guys to remain a leader in the institutional space. >> Yeah. So I mean we have um ongoing initiatives right now in both uh the tokenized equity realm um as well as uh private credit. private credit specifically for us I think um and maybe I shouldn't give away our secrets but like this is really a space where I

think not many are really focused on specifically assetback finance and fintech lending really bringing um the whole kind of origination to securization distribution process on chain and this is an area where I feel like because there's a lot less centralization and a lot less standardization and a lot more opacity it's really rip for you know blockchain to actually create efficiencies to really level up the infrastructure and the institutional workflows. And to your point of, you know, what are we looking for toward the end of the year is when I think about institutional adoption, a lot of people say like the institutions are here.

>> A lot of a lot in a lot of ways it's been institutions kind of selling their existing products and services to what they deem to be a net new distribution channel of crypto natives. What I'm really excited for is in these institutions deploying capital at risk themselves >> into blockchain based opportunities because the onchain version is better and that is what we've been striving for, right? Like for as many billion sorry as many billions of dollars as they're are on chain today. Like institutional capital that's offchain dwarfs by orders of magnitude whatever is on chain and that's the money that we've been going after. And so it's been really working with partners to create really compelling reasons for them to access the blockchain based uh you know private credit or whatever opportunity and that is really what we've been focused on.

>> Yeah, I love it because I mean I hear you know we hear the distribution comment all the time but to me it's almost like look I mean the onchain users yes there are some of them that may want to put their money in a tokenized money market sure like I see the value but you know we we have stable coins and we have a like you know we kind of have our own little versions of these things. What is exciting is them actually coming in taking directional bets putting their capital into the market like fresh capital on chain right not like oh let's you know let's grow our aumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumum with people's money that's already on chain like no like the whole >> the same five users that are like >> right and it's like look >> recycling around >> I'm like allin long crypto assets I'm not particularly excited about like a 4%

money market fund like great I'm all for it it should happen >> although you should check out the a4 RWA hub that is coming on >> from Yeah, we were talking to Stan yesterday about it. I mean, you were instrumental in getting that done. Stani was very excited about it. Basically saying that this is the beginning of him embarking on a new like regional strategy. So, this is a partnership with USAT with from Tether and Avalanche and a but it seems like this is a stepping stone to then spin up an Asia instance, spin up a Europe instance, and then have a be the hub. At least from Stany's perspective, that's how he describes it. from your perspective, what does it mean for Avalanche to have this RWA hub from uh a Avalanche and Tether? Yeah. So I think um and we were talking about this a little bit earlier in terms of um kind

of what differentiates Avalanche and I think because um unlike uh some enterprise chains who shall remain nameless um we've kind of parallel pathed this amazing kind of like DeFi ecosystem and uh various DeFi primitives from the beginning but then parallel path it with in like an institutional focus focus on tokenization and a lot of these worlds are finally converging and we've really been able to kind take advantage of that convergence. And so to your point, this uh kind of RWA hub is the first of what I hope will be many. See >> and AB has been a great partner in terms of operationalizing not just this but a lot of the things that we're working on together. And frankly, >> this concept has really resonated with traditional institutions, especially as it relates to things like SEC lending

and distributed SEC lending. >> Sure. >> Um and it's lending, >> sorry, securities lending. So like being able to borrow uh borrow against your existing equity holdings or lend out uh holding for example yield on them etc. Totally. And um much more than 24/7 trading, atomic settlement, this concept of um kind of distributed uh securities lending leveraging something like an a um has really resonated with >> Yeah, it's super cool because it's new. It's I mean it's only available for high net worths who have a prime broker, right? If you have a prime broker, you have like a 10 mil net worth. You can get leverage on your securities holdings in a brokerage, right? >> Or tax advantages for borrowing against them. Get liquidity on these things. rather rather than selling them. And and

so I'm curious why Avalanche isn't particularly unique and advantaged by, you know, this opportunity, right? Because there's other chains out there who >> not be named >> who won't be named and and they just aren't quite like positioned for this. One of the reasons being, you know, we saw this SEC tokenization exemption specific language that says they need, you know, permission KYC AML. Avalanche has what I understand to be a flexible approach where you can have that implemented but you don't have to have it implemented. And so maybe you could just discuss like the design choices that are possible on Avalanche >> that make it right for a and tether to launch this on Avalanche.

>> Yeah. So what we've seen and especially in working with different types of regulated financial services institutions is um when they are issuing assets and tokenizing assets, they want those assets to be uh wherever users are, wherever liquidity is. And so in many of those cases, they're launched on the Avalanche Cchain, which is the public permissionless liquidity hub that has all the kind of key integrations that make any general purpose kind of ecosystem tick. And that is largely where most of the RWAs exist today. Now, in other cases, institutions are building applications. They're building collateral mobility applications, exchanges, things that require uber high throughput, isolated throughput, predictable transaction costs, permissioning, but importantly need to be connected to things like USDC, UST,

other types of tokenized assets. And so in that case, >> many of them consider building purpose-built L1s on Avalanche. Um and we've been really fortunate to work with a whole host of different uh teams um who will come out in the coming months. Yeah. um that you know we really worked with them handinhand to kind of tweak the environment for them and really kind of optimize for their particular application but importantly they're able to through Avalanche's native internet network interoperability tap into other L1s as well as the Avalanche Cchain and they don't necessarily it's not like an Walt kind of isolated from the rest of the ecosystem that we've seen historically with a lot of enterprise chains that have led to unsuccessful deployments but really being able to kind of tap into the broader network because this idea of like a network of natively interoperable and customizable

networks and horizontal scaling was in the protocol from day one from the white paper. >> I love it. >> And so obviously I'm bullish and I'm biased and I'm excited and I'm drinking the Kool-Aid. But um >> of course >> it's really been from the beginning >> and and it feels good to dream again. It feels good to think big. It feels good to be center. feel I'm sure it feels good to be validated too because the market is now validating the technical design choices and the >> and we actually had a guy come on the aer drone president yesterday and he had a you know hot tank he said look I think we're in the point where tech starts to matter again so if you recall you've been in the industry for quite a while you know we went through this whole you know ethereum rollup ccentric roadmap scaling L2s avalanches L1

>> L3s L3s data availability layers bridges zk interrupt up subsecond finality things, all these little things. And then over the last 18 months, we saw, you know, the likes of Hyperlid come out and say, "Oh, we have 24 validators in Tokyo. Um, sure, we have great product, great, you know, throughput, but like screw all your choices. We're we're doing it this way." You know, whether you agree with that or not, it's obviously worked, but now we're getting back, I think, where it's like, oh, these small things, we're kind of fighting for inches now, right? because the institution that you're talking to, they're going to want that private element on that KYC thing that has the block that settles instantaneously that doesn't have a trust assumption with a validator set that's not long like like you know what I mean and so it's

starting to matter to your point it not only matters but it's great to be working with these institutions who have been on this journey themselves actually for quite some time and >> they're build they're bringing actual um use cases and um requirements from like a business perspective as opposed to us all talking about this in theory, but they're like, "We need 30,000 TPS because this is what we're doing." And it's like a very concrete business. >> It's not like CT arguing about like which L2 has the better thing anymore, right? Yeah, >> I agree. So, side note, I think it's time to drop the term RWAS. I think it's just assets.

>> I tried that, but I I lost that battle. >> All the questions like, is there an asset out there that doesn't belong in real world assets? cuz that to me it's like real world acid. It's anything like is >> the oneofone baseball card that Kevin Olir is wearing around his neck. Is that a is that a RWA? >> I in this world of I guess financializing everything on chain. Sure. Um it's not maybe it's not necessarily things that like we're focused on but um >> but yeah I mean I'm excited to your guys point of like when we stop talking about >> yeah just normalize it, right? Like it's like um when stocks went from like paper certificates to digital for sure. I don't know at some point uh and then now they're just stocks. Right. Exactly.

>> I'm excited to come back full circle and just call it. >> And so you're not to get too deep in terminology. It's not exactly productive. But you have a title. I think it's VP of onchain finance. Um I like that term. >> I made that up. >> I love it. That's what I mean. I like that term though. I like onchain finance over DeFi or you know. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's um interesting. >> Yeah. I mean, so when I first joined, I was um head of institutional leading, right? Because I was solely focused on working with banks, asset managers, and FMIs and kind of taking this conversation full circle. Really over the past 5 years, the worlds of tradization have continued to really converge. Yeah.

>> And so we've basically just expanded the team to encapsulate DeFi, tokenization, and institutional and wholesale finance. and we're taking forward initiatives at the intersection of two or more of those things. Um because a lot of those things now go hand in hand and so um kind of we decided to really kind of consolidate into all things onchain finance. >> Yeah. Very very cool. And so I mean what else do we have left here in terms of like catalyst that you're looking forward to? You know, Andy and I have been talking about this mostly from a market perspective, but I think also from a builder's perspective, whereas it seemed like some of the bad news, whether that be Clarity Act not going through or FOMC rate hikes or Michael Sailor's, you know, big explosion and stretch, you know, unwinding like these things just started to have less of an

impact negatively on the market >> and it feels like all of that is kind of behind us. And so now as you look forward, is there any sort of like what is your event horizon? >> Yeah. What are some of the milestones that you have in mind that you're looking forward to, >> negative or positive, that you think we either need to overcome or we just need to get to in order for us to kind of get the next step function up? >> Yeah, it's interesting because to your point, it's like I feel like the industry's been so beaten up. Um, we've taken a lot of a lot of uh negative news, a lot of like um positioning washouts um where at this point things just feel a lot clearer or cleaner.

>> Yeah. Um, and frankly, it's really up to us as an industry to build like use cases that people care about and that drive real world adoption. Like >> it's it's really like we know we need our like chat GPT moment. Um, and and that I think obviously a lot of different teams are focused on and working on, but it feels like there's a lot of momentum because there's like the industry is more coalescing around a lot of those more specific use cases whether around stable coins and on and payments. um the intersection of blockchain and AI and and you know payments um >> per tokenization stable coins.

>> I'm just I'm just excited for like more of the masses to use these products where they don't care that it's onchain or they don't care that it's tokenized or they don't even know that it's that it's using blockchain. And obviously we've been driving some of that forward with our work with FIFA and some of the other things that have been coming out at this conference. Hyundai >> and Hyundai like when I when I um when I see or andor I'm involved in some of those use cases like that gets me really excited because it's like oh novel concept. It's a it's an actual uh problem that's being solved and so just I'm excited for us all to like drive that forward across a variety of different use. >> Yeah. Awesome.

>> Spend some time with us. Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. No, I'm I'm excited too because you know FIFA and Hyundai and then you know Ford sees Hyundai and they're like we got to do this and then like other companies are like wait what are they better believe we're copy pasting that across% and so you know it creates this institutional FOMO that I I think compounds and the momentum ends up accelerating. So congratulations tons of great work thanks for spending some time with us will you? >> We'll we'll take a pick. >> Thanks. >> All righty guys that has been Morgan Crypto. Thank you so much, >> Keski, the VP of onchain finance. I definitely messed that up, but that's okay. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Give us a couple seconds. Get a water break. Boys are uh boys are a little bit hung and a

little bit tired after a 4 day sprint here. So, we're going to keep pushing though. We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep

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We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. Heat. Hey, heat. Hey, heat.

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We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. You know we get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. You know we get deep. We get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get deep >> yo yo yo what's going on guys this is itan with the rollup we're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most are people trading what are people investing in how much do people actually budget going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead

broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. Kevin, which I'm not sure if you heard this news. Basically, they're just starting their initial implementation of tokenized equities. But I just kind of

want to go a bit more broad because you're you're very clearly educated about this concept of tokenization. I've been watching you with my parents since I was maybe eight on the show. They're both Canadian. They're from Alist in Northern Ontario. Big fans. Mr. Wonderful here. What are you doing here, Kevin? What is your involvement and your belief that you'll be willing to spend your time and invest your capital into the crypto ecosystem into this kind of larger trends? What are you really seeing here? What's your vision for what this industry could become throughout your career? You, you know, huge wins. Could this be another big win for you? >> So, the way I view this whole digitization of the economy, including all the way back to the Genius Act, which gave us stable coins, they're now legal tender, is that this sector, if

you want to call crypto or digitization a sector, will become the 12th sector of the S&P because it services all 11 other sectors. And so in investing in it, in my investment thesis is no more than 5% in any one stock, no more than 20% in any one sector. And we've had positions as high as 23% in crypto during you know the last seven years as we've gone into various positions. So my new investment theme now is okay which I originally thought as a long a lot of other investors did let's say 18 months ago that you only needed two positions. you needed BTC and ETH cuz that they captured 97% of the entire volatility and that was under the assumption that everybody

would standardize on Ethereum every sector that has not happened for various reasons. And so now investors like me and many others I see many guys I know here that are involved in this sector as investors are saying wait a sec we're wrong about ETH being standard and maybe it's too slow maybe whatever people aren't happy who's next like what other chain is going to get adopted so it now looks like sectors are going to choose their chains and become standardized on those and that's why people that's why this conference is packed people are trying to figure out where does Avalanche fit in this new doctrine of sectoral preference. So if it's going to be used, if you told me that all the

sports teams are going to tokenize collectibles on a on avalanche, yeah, I'm going to do mine on Avalanche. You know, people go into where the momentum is. So I'm I'm waiting to hear and I'm and so is everybody else. I find it interesting that speaking before me is a guy from an exchange like ICE. >> I mean that's where the industry is now Kevin. I mean we've been >> what's he doing here? >> I know right man I mean we spoke to folks >> that you mentioned earlier >> from Broad Ridge from large institutions. >> Does that signal anybody that maybe he's thinking about Avalanche? >> Exactly.

>> Like I don't know but that I looked through the guest list I said what the hell is he doing here? >> Yeah. It's like as soon as I see him, I'm going to ask him. >> Well, President Trump said hyperlquid on national TV a couple weeks back, right? Obviously, from the highest level of power, they're trying to bring these products into the US. Privacy has been a massive categorical winner in the industry. Zcash has been absolutely flying, the best performing asset. There are sectors now, Kevin, in this industry that I think didn't previously exist. I'm just curious, you know, you speak about your kind of portfolio allocations here. What would make you go bigger into the crypto industry? I know you're, you know, you've been heavily invested into AI, into a lot of uh kind of broad

consumer sectors. What would make you go bigger into digital assets? >> Adoption. Use case adoption. If you told me an exchange adopted one of these chains, I'd be all over that. the values of those of those tokens will go through the roof because that is going to be the platform by which tokenization is supported on that exchange. That's the next big thing. So, who's going to get it? Which chain's going to get it? And and everybody, not not just me, everybody's trying to figure this out. I don't think it's going to be Ethereum anymore. I don't think it's fast enough. I don't think it's secure enough. I that's an opinion, my own opinion, but clearly they would have had it already.

And so they didn't get it and they and you know most of the of the um anything to do with stable coins they're probably 50% of all transactions on stable coins but that's not going to work for stocks. You can't wait six minutes for a stock. You need you need price discovery and boom you got to do the trade. >> And so when you're when you're looking at constructing a portfolio this plays a significant role in that portfolio. We had someone come on and basically describe this radical portfolio theory because it seems like we're moving away from 6040 bonds and stocks. We're moving towards alternative asset classes.

You're wearing one around your neck. And so, how do you think about alternative asset classes and investments? How do you think the modern portfolio should look? >> Yeah. Well, you're 100% right. I I'm just one investor, but I am not 6040 anymore. 15 years ago, I was 6040. alternatives are already 23% of my portfolio including stuff like this, >> you know, but for me it's it's I'm looking for my two basic themes in in in right now, for example, AI. Yes, I want to be an AI, but I don't want to guess which model is going to win. So my thesis is to go back to the picks and shovels of AI and say I'm just going to invest in power. You can't do AI without power. You can't do anything without power. So the investments there that

were considered alternatives 5 years ago was bit zero. It was private. It works in Norway and Finland, now it's public on the on the NASDAQ, but it has contracts in Norway and Finland on land power, fiber permits, and it doesn't used to be a Bitcoin miner. It doesn't do it doesn't care about Bitcoin. It cares about power now. In Alberta, I have a power project uh that's private. Utah power project. I'm building I'm going power. And finally, for the first time ever, I have a position in uranium, the actual commodity, >> because the next big thing in the next few years is going to be small modular reactors that are like the same ones of nuclear submarines for power generation all over the grid in the US. You can't run those without uranium. You might as well buy the picks and shovels of that strategy, which is the commodity uranium

itself. >> Sure. >> So, I'm long uranium. I've never been long uranium before. And so Kevin, when you think about the possibilities in the TAM of digital or you call it this digitization trend, right? Um we're speaking about all of finance kind of modernizing, right? And so this is a massive market. There's repo, there's forex, there's equities trading, there's bonds. It's massive. There's going to be winners in this digital asset industry. Obviously, kind of you've got this king of Bitcoin. People are, you know, they still call for a million-dollar Bitcoin. First, I'm curious. Do you think Bitcoin will ever hit a million? If so, when?

And second, if this whole thesis plays out, this tokenization digitization thesis, who is going to win the most and who will lose in the in the current era? >> Well, it's a great question and here's my answer. everything you talked about in financial services including BTC in terms of the allocation of the volatility of that pricing. You you buy BTC and you are exposed to V in pricing but the big winner of all of that is going to be the chain that standardizes the exchanges. Like that's who is it going to be? Whoever gets that is going to be the biggest winner and the biggest

losers will be the other chains that didn't get that for whatever reason. I mean, somebody has to make a decision on what they're going to standardized on. And I would have said 18 months ago or last, you know, July it looked like ETH didn't happen. But that that's not going to happen until after the clarity passes. I don't think uh you know on a on a partisan basis that we're going to give this administration a win by passing clarity, but I think they'll go through the midterms and then we'll look at it again because on a bipartisan basis they have to pass it. But the answer to your question is show me the chain that gets the first exchange. >> Yeah.

>> And then watch what happens the value of those tokens. >> Yeah. We have maybe less than 30 seconds. Rapid fire. Will Bitcoin ever hit a million? It will if it can resolve the doubt creeping in around quantum computing, you know, breaking the algorithms and the chain and the encryption. Um, they call it Qday. It's another theme out there as investors. Some people are putting on a counter bet by investing in some of these nasent companies that are developing quantum computing software. It's a security play and that's also on the chain. So, you know, there's a lot this is why everybody's back at Avalanche conference. There's so many themes, you know, you feel you feel the energy in here. It's big.

>> AI slow down. >> AI slow down. >> It's not going to happen. There's no way there's going to be AI slowdown. So, you let the Chinese beat everybody? Are you kidding? It's never going to happen. I mean, I love this. Uh, robots are going to eat all the babies. I mean, that's one narrative. The other is we're going to cure cancer. Yeah, I'm in the cure cancer camp. >> Kevin, I really appreciate your time. Last one. Who's your favorite shark on Shark Tank and who is your least favorite shark? Well, everybody knows my favorite shark. It's Mr. Wonderful. I love that guy. I mean, all roads lead back to Mr. Wonderful. And I can't I I can't say who's my, you know, because because, you know, that's kind of negative for guys you work with. But, um, I will say this, and it's important

to show respect. The only reason Barbara gets to Shark Tank every year is I buy her a new broom. >> Kevin, thank you so much, man. >> Quick photo here, Kevin. >> All right, you got it. Thank you guys. >> Okay. Thanks. Thanks so much, man. It was a pleasure. Pleasure to see you, man. >> I loved you and Marty Supreme. >> That's great. I love Marty Supreme, too. I mean, >> I I wanted to ask you why you said you were a vampire and born in 1601. >> Because I didn't feel that that guy got away with murder and he should have paid a price. I wanted the ending and they considered it that in his 60s at a Tears for Fears concert, I sit be behind him and bite his neck. We actually thought about it is an

animal. >> I love it. I absolutely love it. >> Guys, thank you so much. Thank you to Nancy, a fellow Canadian. Spent her summers in the cottages. Love Paris sound. Thank you, Ariel. Thank you, Margaret, so much. And thank you, Kevin. All righty, guys. We're back at Avalanche Summit day two. What an interview with Kevin. I mean, we just listened to it live with you guys. We just did the rerun. We got to do it again. We got our next guest in, I don't know, 20-ish minutes, guys. We're going to run that. Kevin Olri interview again. It was it was such a fun conversation. I think it's worth listening to twice. >> I think it's worth >> listening to again. We're going to run it back again and then we'll be right back guys.

>> You can't wait six minutes for a stock. You need you need price discovery and boom, you got to do the trade. And so when you're when you're looking at constructing a portfolio, this plays a significant role in that portfolio. We had someone come on and basically describe this radical portfolio theory because it seems like we're moving away from 6040 bonds and stocks. We're moving towards alternative asset classes. You're wearing one around your neck. And so how do you think about alternative asset classes and investments? How do you think the modern portfolio should look? >> Yeah. Well, you're 100% right. I I'm just one investor, but I am not 6040 anymore. 15 years ago, I was 6040. Alternatives are already 23% of my portfolio, including stuff like this, >> you know, but for me, it's it's I'm

looking for my two basic themes in in in right now. For example, AI. Yes, I want to be an AI, but I don't want to guess which model is going to win. So my thesis is to go back to the picks and shovels of AI and say I'm just going to invest in power. You can't do AI without power. You can't do anything without power. So the investments there that were considered alternatives 5 years ago was Bit Zero. It was private. It works in Norway and Finland. Now it's public on the on the NASDAQ, but it has contracts in Norway and Finland on land power fiber permits. And it doesn't it used to be a Bitcoin miner. It doesn't do it doesn't care about Bitcoin. cares about power. Now in Alberta, I have a power project uh that's private Utah power project. I'm building I'm going

power. And finally, for the first time ever, I have a position in uranium, the actual commodity, >> because the next big thing in the next few years is going to be small modular reactors that are like the same ones of nuclear submarines for power generation all over the grid in the US. You can't run those without uranium. you might as well buy the picks and shovels of that strategy which is the commodity uranium itself. >> Sure. >> So I'm long uranium. I've never been long uranium before. >> And so Kevin, when you think about the possibilities in the TAM of digital or you call it this digitization trend, right? Um we're speaking about all of finance kind of modernizing, right? And so this is a massive market. There's repo, there's forex, there's equities

trading, there's bonds. It's massive. there's going to be winners in this digital asset industry. Obviously, kind of you've got this king of Bitcoin. People are, you know, they still call for a million-dollar Bitcoin. First, I'm curious, do you think Bitcoin will ever hit a million? If so, when? And second, if this whole thesis plays out, this tokenization digitization thesis, who is going to win the most and who will lose in the in the current era? >> Well, it's a great question, and here's my answer. everything you talked about in financial services including BTC in terms of the allocation of the volatility of that pricing. You you buy BTC and you are exposed to all in pricing

but the big winner of all of that is going to be the chain that standardizes the exchanges. Like that's who is it going to be? Whoever gets that is going to be the biggest winner and the biggest losers will be the other chains that didn't get that for whatever reason. I mean, somebody has to make a decision on what they're going to standardize on. And I would have said 18 months ago or last, you know, July it looked like ETH didn't happen. But that that's not going to happen until after the clarity passes. I don't think uh you know on a on a partisan basis that we're going to give this administration a win by

passing clarity, but I think they'll go through the midterms and then we'll look at it again because on a bipartisan basis they have to pass it. But the answer to your question is show me the chain that gets the first exchange. >> Yeah. >> And then watch what happens the value of those tokens. >> Yeah. We have maybe less than 30 seconds. Rapid fire. Will Bitcoin ever hit a million? It will if it can resolve the doubt creeping in around quantum computing, you know, breaking the algorithms and the chain and the encryption. Um, they call it Q day. It's another theme out there as investors. Some people are putting on a counterbed by investing in some of these nasent companies that are developing quantum computing software. It's a security play and that's also on the chain. So, you know, there's a lot this is why everybody's back at

Avalanche conference. There's so many themes, you know, you feel you feel the energy in here. It's big. >> AI slow down. >> AI slow down. >> It's not going to happen. There's no way there's going to be AI slow down. So you let the Chinese beat everybody. Are you kidding? It's never going to happen. I mean, I love this. Uh robots are going to eat all the babies. I mean, that's one narrative. The other is we're going to cure cancer. Yeah, I'm in the cure cancer camp. >> Kevin, I really appreciate your time. Last one. Who's your favorite shark on Shark Tank? And who is your least favorite shark? Well, everybody knows my favorite shark. It's Mr. Wonderful. I love that guy. I mean, all roads lead back to Mr. Wonderful. And I can't I I can't say who's my, you know, because because, you know, that's kind of negative for guys you work with. But,

um, I will say this, and it's important to show respect. The only reason Barbara gets to Shark Tank every year is I buy her a new broom. >> Kevin, thank you so much, man. >> Quick photo here, Kevin. >> All right, you got it. Thank you guys. Okay, thanks. Thanks so much, man. It was a pleasure. Pleasure to see you, man. I loved you and Marty Supreme. >> That's great. I love Marty Supreme, too. I mean, >> I I wanted to ask you why you said you were a vampire and born in6001. >> Because I didn't feel that that guy got away with murder and he should have paid a price. I wanted the ending and they considered it that in his 60s at a a Tears for Fears concert, I sit be behind him and bite his neck. Yeah,

>> we actually thought of it. >> That's insane. >> I love it. I absolutely love it. >> Guys, thank you so much to Thank you to Nancy, fellow Canadian. Spent her summers in the cottages. Love Perry Sound. Thank you, Ariel. Thank you, Margaret, so much. And thank you, Kevin. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, guys. >> Awesome combo, Kevin. >> Thanks, guys. >> Wow. We get deep. We get deep. We know we get deep.

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We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep.

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We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. You know we get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. You know we get deep. We get deep know we get deep. >> All right guys. We're back here at Avalanche Summit day two. I have the pleasure to be joined by Dominic Carbonaro the director of ecosystem growth at Avalabs. Dom welcome to the show. and Jenna the vice president of brand partnerships at Live Nation who I've who she has told me that is the biggest company with a capital B in the world enter in the nation >> in the world >> largest global entertainment brand in the world >> there it is Jenna so um amazing we are

bringing live nation on chain that's kind of the topic of the convo today maybe let's just start holistically with how you guys have started to think about how we can take an entertainment business and optimize certain parts of it. Kind of start super high level here. Jenna, maybe with you. What was the inspiration to kind of get involved here? >> The inspiration was fans are loyal and they deserve to be rewarded for their loyalty. So that was in my seat and in Dom in the partner seat was how can we make that simple and how can we build an infrastructure that's also simple for their for their loyalty to reward them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um I think you put that very elegantly. Um on our side, you know, my job is to let me get this closer. My my

my vertical is the consumer enterprise vertical. So we're looking for interesting use cases in the entertainment, sports, and media space. And um you know, we are very excited about um getting people to do things in person and how do we bring really bring our chain to them and meet them where they are. And so um loyalty is obviously a great starting point. You guys have some of the most passionate fans in the world. I was one of them. I was a original EDC attender when it was in the coliseum. Um, and so I've kind of just I've been around this space for a long time and I think we I think we picked a great first partner for it. Um, yeah, it's just a Yeah, >> I'll I'll I'll build on that. So, you mentioned first partner.

>> We're we're launching with a a group within our umbrella called Insomniac. Insomniac is really the leader in dance music. So, original EDC to now global festivals. Just in the US, they have 30 festivals with with over three million fans. >> Wow. >> And dance music fans go to a number of shows a year, seven shows annually, call it other genres, it's about three shows. So, we knew that because they're going to so many shows, this was the perfect ecosystem to start with, which is the Insomniac group. >> Awesome. And so, this is the festival behind EDC Beyond Wonderland. Here I have in my notes. I'm curious, Jenna, with the problem that you're looking to address here, you mentioned loyalty and being rewarded for your loyalty. Um, what is the current relationship that

Live Nation Insomniac has with a fan? And what are we trying to improve on specifically through the work that you're doing with Avalanche? >> I mean, we're putting on an experience for them, >> okay, >> that they're able to show up as their best, you know, as their real self. It's inclusive. We're uniting fandom. My goal at Live Nation is to help fans get closer to the artists and the bands they love by intersecting brands into that. So, we'll bring brands in, which essentially are our fans are their consumers, and we'll help them reward them along their fan journey and get them closer to the thing they love most, which is ultimately live music. >> Yeah. Anything to add?

>> Um, no, I would say anything specifically. Yeah, I I would the one thing I would mention is when you talked about rewarding fans uh and we talked about this earlier is around how this rewards program is really different because it focuses on experiences. It's not a you know like we talked about airline miles are great. You you you spend on your card, you get miles you usually use those for a flight to go to experiences. Um this is really meeting I think the consumer where they are and giving them things they're actually passionate about. >> Yeah. Ch. Can I just ask much more broadly here? You know, I've gone to tons of music festivals, concerts, etc. And you're right, there is this kind of fleeting relationship that you have with that experience in that sure, I have a ticket master account and I can go back

and look at my past trips or past events, right? But I don't have like what I would almost want is a digital passport of of sorts. Almost like, you know, when you go to Downtown Disney in Florida, you buy all these pins and you can put them on a shirt or on like a bag, right? And you kind of have this like proof of proof of being there, right? This kind of like um this Yeah. like like this physical passport, but I wanted that in a digital form. And then I can then open a social graph with that and create new friendships, relationships, uh new groups, you know, trips, etc. Talk. Am I thinking about this the right way? Like where are we at? You're so what you're trying to say is the relationship with a fan shouldn't

start when they get to the concert or when they're at the festival weekend. We wanted to extend it far beyond and really meet them where their fandom is. You know, communities, Discord communities. We have some of the largest event communities out there and they're meeting and discussing their fandom and then coming and meeting on site. They're making friends. They're meeting their wives, >> right? And so I think that the the reward system really needs to reward them for their loyalty, not just in our ecosystem, but on that fan journey. What what are their outfits, inspirations?

How are they planning their trips? Where we're meeting them really where they are, and we're rewarding them throughout that fan journey. >> Yeah. And you know, I know you mentioned Discord. Before that, I'm a little older. Uh it used to be Facebook groups. like your Facebook EDC Las Vegas group was like a staple in my friend group until I've actually met and still retain some of my best friends to this day. So, um it's yeah, it's funny how these things evolve, but they kind of all just really stay the same, right? People who are passionate about hanging out with their friends, listening to live music. Um yeah, and it's I don't know, it's just it's it's something I'm super passionate about cuz like she mentioned, my wife, I've met my wife at at a live music uh live music festival. So, yeah, I'm super excited to get this off the

ground. I want to share a little bit about the product though because you just mentioned Downtown Disney Collective. First of all, we got to get you to a a dance music festival because all of that you'll see come to life, >> totems, the outfits, the group, you know, the the matic that they're showing up, >> but that's where I was going was so the wristbands. Farooq made a joke how people leave the festival and you'll see them still rocking the wristband for a while, but like there's no functionality to it. the day the wristbands are really for access control. You know, we're going to scan them in. Did they buy it? Are they in VIP? What where do they need to get around the festival? And that's kind of the main point. We're going to actually be layering onto that through this partnership so we can unlock uh

both the access but also payments and not just payments in our ecosystem. You'll see that at many different festivals, right? Load your wristband, connect a card. This is all going to be powered on Avalanche's blockchain with RAIN. And so they'll be able to be let's we keep going back to EDC. We got to go this year, but they could be at a day club party and be using that same wristband and have the same functionality, not have to run and get their phone, not have to run and get their card. So, we're unlocking that phantom and it is actually uh a memorability of whether they're on site or when they leave. >> Yeah. You know, it's funny when I was talking to Ari, one of her um someone at Insomniac about this and you mentioned the Vegas uh the Vegas payment use case. Uh I'll never forget I was 21. Like the

first thing I did when I went to Vegas, I lost my wallet. >> It was a disaster, you know? So, it's like I really actually think this is the perfect fit. Um get in, set up your card, don't have to worry about anything else anymore. You kind of just have your one-stop shop payment credential pass into the actual, you know, festival. So I think it's a great great use case for the fans. It's something something I wish I would have had. It's very practical um in those events you know you know things can get lost easily let's just say right um everybody knows right and so you know when you think about so that's the payments use case is there more from your side dom cuz you know my question is just going to be kind of maybe pessimistic like why do we need a blockchain for this why do we need a shared ledger system for this

why not just do it in live nations backend right it all through traditional rails and have it be that way what's the key difference here >> yeah the key difference is the payment unlock. Um, and as you know, you know, Rain is, you know, the leader in the space in pre-loaded value cards. They pretty much power every single Neo bank. Um, and so there's a lot of interesting business use cases that Rain enables that are just not possible in traditional payment systems. Um, I think we'll mention and get more into the business use cases post launch, which is I'd say we're in the whole stretch of. >> Um, but yeah, enabling consumer payments is probably our biggest focus right now.

How do we get people to pay with stable coins without really knowing they're using it, right? That's kind of our goal. Um, and we think loyalty really sits as the unlock. So, if you want to change how a consumer spends, you know, the easiest way that we've seen so far work is credit cards, right? You swipe a credit card, you get rewarded with points. That's really loyalty is the engine to change consumer spending habits. So, we're really just replicating that here. >> Yeah. And then for us, um, we, you made the joke about us being the big global entertainment leader, but it's true, right? EDC is in Vegas, it's in Thailand, it's in Mexico, it's in Colombia. I go to I sent an Uber and my Uber drivers are like, "Did you hear Colombia was announced today?" Right? And so we want fans, you know, music is

crossborder. It's cross genre and it really transcends language and Avalanche will help us continue to do that for our fans so they can show up be rewarded no matter where in the world they're going in the in our ecosystem. >> Yeah. And you you know so there's this concept in the blockchain world. I'm sure you've heard of these gen these NFTts right and you know you see like you know Doms my profile picture. It's a penguin, right? It's silly but it's cute. You know whatever, right? Right. >> I like it. Right. It's it's true to me. It's kind of you know it's a bit of an identity thing, right? What I was saying with this digital passport concept is that the ownership of that kind of like pass or that that like tie to my digital identity I think is really valuable and a very good uh use case for nonf fungeible tokens meaning that like my

token is mine like it's can't be replicated. It's a one of one, right? It's my It's my ticket. It's my past. It's my proof. I can kind of, you know, you've been to a numerous EDC events. >> I don't know how many events you've been to. Sure, you can pull up your phone and show me some videos and some photos. And, you know, we had to start, you know, asking about practicality of like what matters here, but it would be great if you could just show me on your phone, oh, here's my little EDC NFT collection. But don't call them NFTs. Nobody wants to touch NFTs. So from a from a brand advisory perspective, I would just kind of call them whatever your digital, you know, I would just recommend that. I think it could work and I think Avalanche could help power that and it

would be a really good use case for this technology. >> Yeah, thank you for the recommendation. I think where you're getting at is in our world, right? So there's the FOMO, there's the showing it off, but for us, we're actually trying to go deeper and it's the personalization. >> Yeah. What are we what rewards are we putting in front of them based on their past spending? What shows are we unlocking? >> Totally. Hear me out. Like, >> yeah, they went to EDC Vegas. Why are we not showing them? >> You know, you saw Casbow. >> All right. Casbow is going to give all of his digital passport holders of his EDC 2025 show. >> $100 off for a week. You can buy his show in New York. Only if you were there. Only if you have the proof. It's verifiable on Avalanche, on chain. you pay with stable coins, but you it's just

in an app that it's like it doesn't feel like crypto. Just feels like you're moving, you know, you're you're moving dollars. I don't know. I just like this stuff. It's like really practical, real implementation, though. >> Yeah. Um I think the identity you're you're really getting at a fan identity component. Um, and I think it's important to to be honest, your guys' your market, your fan identity pieces are those those wristbands. People will show you like I went to this festival and it has the name on it. Even when we went last year, you had the special things to put on them that kind of signify that. So, I do think fan fan identity is important. Kind of having your look how long I've been doing this is important. Um, >> and you know, for for me, where does that all stem from? It stems from going

to the actual events. >> Correct. which is what the rewards are going to be. >> Even deeper, it stems from this fan creator or performer kind of parasocial bond, right? That's at the deepest psychology level of like I'm going to spend money to see this person so we've got this bond, right? >> Yeah. And I think you also can identify people you you know I think people who listen to the same music also there's like kind of a natural jelling, you know, like >> music is a very it's a unifier. I even told someone this when I was at uh when I was at EDC, you look out in the crowd, you see like a hundred different country flags. It's insane, you know, and like it's uh it's very rare to see that kind of stuff now where people come for one thing and they get unified under it. And

live music and events are are really that thing. >> 50% of our fans for EDC travel uh 600 miles plus just to get there. And then the countries, you're right, I think it's on average over 50 60 countries every single uh every single show. >> Yeah. And it's exciting. I mean, when you start really thinking about where consumer payments sit, someone coming from out of the US to go to a show, that's tough. How do you bring your money in? You have to go to a currency exchange spot. When you can just pre-load value onto a card, it's on your wristband. You show up, you scan to pay, all that's abstracted away. That's really what blockchain's for. Um, and so that's what we are focused on on the blockchain aspect.

>> Yeah, it's this it's that abstraction part that I think that, you know, can't be understated even. It's that, you know, you don't want to have to manage private keys, keys, uh, wallet, login, pass key, face ID. It says the US dollar balance of your wristband. Feels like it's just you're spending it. It's US dollars. It's all underneath stable coins. They never have to know. It's beautiful. Um, great great work, guys. Thank you for for your time. Closing thoughts. I mean, what's next? What could we expand upon, Jenna? What are you fired up about? Um, I'm fired up up about the partnership and I'm fired up about what our fans are about to see and unlock and you guys will be seeing it at one of our final biggest festivals of the year here in 2026. So, um, hope you

can experience it live. >> I'm fired up to see this go live. We've been working on this since last December. >> Wow. >> Um, it has been, you know, multiple parties involved and it's just been it's like it's like a watching a symphony now. It's like we've put everything together and now we're finally getting out to actually go, you know, to go to play. So, I'm excited to watch this go live. >> Thanks, Dom. Appreciate that. >> My pleasure. >> Awesome. Guys, we will be right back with more markets, interviews, charts, more from the Avalanche Summit, day two here in New York City. Don't go anywhere. Give us a quick sec and we'll be right back.

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We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. We get deeper. We get deep, you know. We get deep.

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We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. You know, we get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. Know we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. Know we get deep. We get deep. Know we get deep. We get we get we get >> yo yo yo. What's going on guys? This is Itan with the roll up. We're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most. What are people trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget?

We're going to have people from all over all different investment classes. People who are dead broke. People who are dead whales. People who are just loaded. All right, guys. We are back. We've got Kevin Ori on stage to hear a little bit through the intercom, but we've got Will Peek and Caroline Bam here live here on the rollup from AVAC Summit Day 2. And we've got you both here because there's a partnership brewing between Moon and Wisdom Tree. Uh guys, first welcome to the show, Will. It's great to have you back. We had the Convergence product drop earlier this week. Very excited about that. Caroline, first time on the show, as I understand. So, welcome. Thanks for being here.

>> Thank you so much for having us. >> Hard to go headto-head with Kevin Olirri. Yeah, but I I think you guys can can hold your own. Um, let's talk about the partnership. Uh, Caroline, maybe a quick intro because it is your first time on the show, but then we'll get into what you guys are doing together. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, thank you so much for having me on here. I'm super excited. I'm so excited to be here together with Will Peek. I told him he's my ride or die today, so I hope he doesn't get sick of me. Uh, I am the CEO of Moon Institutional. I also am the chief legal officer and chief administrative officer of Moon. Moonay is a technology solutions provider that does blockchain infrastructure and we also do crypto payments. We do buy sell crypto. We have the entire endto-end

stack of digital asset products whether it's crypto, whether it's stable coins, we do fiat to crypto, fiat to stable coins. So basically anything you want to do onchain, moon provides the rails for that and it powers 35 million users around the world in 180 countries. We can do settlements and payments and 120 fiat currencies. So really we are the portal, the operating system through which value moves around the world, particularly as we go into the onchain experience. Moonpay institutional is the new business unit that I launched earlier this year. And so when I realized that Moonay had this end-to-end tech stack that uh is digital asset neo bankanking rails like neo bankanking as a service um I white label this to banks asset managers trading firms and

exchanges. So anybody who needs a blockchain in a box solution. If you don't have over 200 digital asset engineers and product uh teams then we are a vendor that we can provide you everything you need. Oneclick uh DeFi uh liquidity access fiat to DeFi liquidity. It's pretty cool. I >> I love it. Blockchain in a box making it easy for neo banks, exchanges, trading firms. Uh Will, our audience knows you. Uh you've been on the show before. Wisdom Tree is at the center of the convergence between Tradfy and digital assets. um h how did this partnership come together? Maybe you can catch us up on everything that uh you know you guys have talked about as of recently you guys have launched uh and specifically why it makes sense to leverage uh this partnership with Moon. >> Yeah, we're really excited about the

collaboration. So, uh you know there's been a lot of supply side innovation from like asset management firms like you have lots of asset managers come on speak to your audience about how they're trying to tokenize different things. Uh, I'd say there hasn't been as much innovation so far on the distribution side and kind of enhancing the accessibility and just the user experience around uh, accessing these onchain investment products. So, what we're doing with Caroline and the Moon team is essentially making it available. So, every and Moon Pay is truly everywhere everywhere that Moonay is, if you're a US retail investor or other eligible investor could eventually be global retail in lots of situations. You can access first our tokenized money market fund WTGXX. it could expand to other products and services as well really through Wisdom Tree's own broker dealers. So we remain the financial

services company in that chain but we've embedded that access into a technology platform which is truly distributed throughout the industry. So for us, this represents like true distribution innovation and trying to meet like our clients where they are and make it much more convenient for them to immediately swap from a stable coin to a yield bearing money market fund in a seamless process exactly where they're kind of currently doing their business. So that's really what we're trying to do with this partnership. It it's very cool to see because I think we're finally starting to really emphasize some of the distribution that you mentioned as well as some of the innovations that are happening on the tech side and the regulatory side. Uh Caroline, you were at the CFTC. Uh Will, you've got kind of this unique advantage point uh the unique vantage point on the SEC tokenization exemption. Let's start with

the SEC tokenization exemption. It came out earlier this morning. The CFTC news just broke about an hour ago. And so will why is the tokenization exemption first? What is it from your point of view as one of the the you know pillars of tokenization? what is now possible that wasn't possible before this exemption listed. >> Yeah, the SEC put out a proposed innovation exemption and it just came out this morning. So, I've only been able to read just a little bit about it. Haven't been able to really dig in yet, but um you know what was kind of forecasted about it and what seems to be in this rule is essentially allowing reggg NMS stocks to trade uh kind of as onchain versions. Uh it's currently for um issuers that are tokenizing the stocks themselves. So doing that via a transfer agent, that's how like Wisdom

Tree's model for our funds work where Wisdom Tree's got a transfer agent that's actually issuing the shares. You know, the folks at Superstate, for example, do this with common stocks as well with equities. Uh for that model and also for a security entitlement model, allowing those to trade on AMMs and other decentralized venues within the US regulatory perimeter. So this is something that was really required for onchain securities to trade in a big way. You know, it's interesting. Wisdom Tree got relief for our money market fund to allow it to trade in a secondary market. But really, that was just the starting point. And now you're starting to see it's like, hey, well, if Wisdom Tree is tokenizing an ETF that's naturally a reg, this also sets up the the ways by which it can trade trade continuously 24/7 with good pricing around it, which is exactly what clients want, right? Like having it onchain

doesn't matter if you can't do anything with it. And this is exactly in the in the vein of doing that. So this is more than part of the distribution story. This is distribution plus utility. Exactly. It's distribution plus functionality. It's really the functionality that's required to make this like a thing. And so um this is something we've been waiting on for um talked about for a while. It seemed like you know with clarity wasn't clear exactly what was going to happen with it. Uh, but it's um, you know, something that Caroline's been saying, the the regulars have all the tools in the toolkit to put the rules in place for this industry and everything that we're seeing, everything we talk about with our clients, other firms in the space.

Um, there's no slowing down uh, with Clarity failing. This is exactly the type of thing you'd want to see. Very cool. And Caroline, you were, you know, a former commissioner at the CFTC. Um they also had a piece of essentially an exemption or a permission to developers to build passive derivative software without registering as brokers. This is coming out of the CFTC. This also feels relevant. Generally the regulatory bodies are some of the most innovative and ambitious regimes that we've ever seen. And so I think before we started you said this was a piece that you started while you were at the CFTC. And so you've got a deep legacy here with this permission in particular. Maybe you

can walk us through what it means. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, um, could not echo more like what Will is talking about because it's not just the functionality, it's not just the utility, it's also the access. How do people access these tokenized uh products in a regulated and compliant way? I mean, that's really how everything's coming together. And that's why it's so gratifying to see, you know, how the agencies are not slowing down at all. I mean, I think they're going to pick up the pace, right? and you're gonna have more and more of these rules coming out, more and more guidance all around tokenization of existing financial products. So, it's super super exciting. Um, okay, to answer your question, I think the best way I can do this for a little bit of context, right?

So, of course, I had been working on Bitcoin and crypto since 2013 when I was staff at the CFDC. So, before I became a commissioner, which was actually my fourth time back at the agency, I had been staff for many years, worked on putting together all of the rules after the 2008 financial crisis, DoddFrank Act, um, at the CFTC. Then I went to Croup and I was a managing director at Cityroup and I've been working on blockchain technology and digital asset strategy across institutional consumer businesses at City since 2018 and that's all about really modernizing like the pipes and plumbing the rails of the financial system. It is not sexy. It is back office, middle office, you know, reconciliation, post trade, settlement, clearing, all of those things.

recordkeeping, a lot of recordkeeping and reporting, but it's absolutely critical because that is how we have things like$26 trillion dollars of treasuries every day that are being cleared and settled at like Bank of New York Melon for example. So when you think about all of that background and I was head of market structure over strategic initiatives including digital assets city I'd been one of the um senior bank executives over there. I took that to the CFTC and that's what we're seeing in this administration is so many other um leaders who have practical industry experience. So, of course, um, SEC chairman Paul Atkins, a legend, right? He was a commissioner before, very seasoned securities lawyer, um, very successful business, uh,

consulting and implementing, uh, regulatory change. And so to take all of that experience, what he's doing at the SEC now is 100% a playbook for how you make good rules the right way that are durable, and that are going to continue to make America and the US capital markets the greatest markets in the world. It's the same thing with Chairman C. Chairman Celig has been in this industry for you know well over 15 years partner at a law firm. He's a lawyer's lawyer and he's been deeply deeply engaged in digital assets and digital asset regulation since I don't know since I think pretty much the beginning of his career. And so you have two powerhouses like that. The work that I did last year was again taking everything I'd worked on at city leading

digital regulatory advocacy and being like this is what works. um you put in that groundwork to have a technology neutral flexible principles based framework. You know the CFC used to have rules that had microf fish, right? Floppy discs, right? Punch cards. If anybody knows what punch cards is, that used to be specified in CFTC rules. We got to move away from that, right? We have to have rules that work for blockchain technology, whatever new techn quantum, who knows what's coming, right? That's the groundwork that I laid last year, high level, but then also the crypto sprint. What you're seeing here is that um the staff had issued and this was after I left, but the staff had issued a no action letter that basically said if you're a technology services provider that um provides the connectivity for front-end wallets,

right, like a MetaMask, like a Phantom wallet to be able to access CFTC regulated exchanges. that technology service provider doesn't have to register as a broker because they're just technology, right? Um, and it also has information for how the wallet provider also doesn't need to register as a broker because it is really just a front end to the exchange and the exchange is the one that's regulated and then if you use a CFTC futures commission merchant that's like uh basically commodities broker that's registered. So that no action letter had been issued earlier to Phantom Wallet.

Um it was addressed specifically just to Phantom Wallet. And so I haven't read it yet, but from my understanding I think what the CBC just released was to take that no action letter and now make it available to all wallet providers, right? And so that means uh for wallet providers that's going to be a huge benefit because now they have that clarity that they don't need to register without having to hire their own law firms, you know, their own like DC consultants to go and submit an application essentially for their own no action letter. So this is I think going to help to really speed up innovation in the space and again driving access and it's the right way to do it. Now we've got guidelines, we've got rules of the road again an example of how you do things at the agency level, >> right? I I I love it and I think that is

a super helpful understanding of how the CFTC has sort of evolved its regulation and its guidance as the industry has evolved. You know, starting with no action letters, kind of working through from your history as a staffer and then a commissioner all the way through to some of the regulation that the guidance that we see today. Um I I I I see a lot of overlap, you know, from the securities and the SEC side all the way through to the commodities and the CFTC side. It seems as if, you know, what you're saying, the the wallets no longer needing to uh uh register as brokers is very similar to what we saw in the tokenization exemption from the SEC today, >> right? And so now we kind of have like this SEC CFTC accord.

>> Okay, I love it. I just have to jump in because this was something that was so important to me last year and it was important I know to SEC chairman Paul Atkins who again I've known for 15 years and such an amazing role model and so impressive. Um the CC and the SEC have actually worked quite well together in the past over the decades ever since the CFTC was created in its modern form in 1975. Right. So the last administration was really an aberration this like SEC CFTC turf war. It's so silly. It didn't need to be that way. And so the thing that um I wanted to do under my acting chairmanship, of course, um was to say, "Listen, there's no turf war. All we should be focused on is making sure that America has the greatest markets in the world, that we have the safest markets

in the world, that we have the most access to our markets in the world, and that we're allowing innovation and entrepreneurs and American companies to flourish." Right? Isn't that what we all want? Who cares if it's the SEC or the CFTC? We're here for the American people. Uh not to get on a soap box, but it was just something I felt so passionately about. And so we really kicked that off with the SEC CFTC harmonization round table. If you'll remember, back in September of last year, we had it at the SEC. To be honest, I can't remember the last time the CFTC went to the SEC and even participated like sitting there on the stage. And I think that was just really um putting a marker down for how this was going to be a new administration.

And it's been so incredible to watch chairman Celig, chairman uh Atkins work together. And as you know, chairman Celig was on the SEC uh crypto task force as the chief counsel before he became chairman. >> Right. So there's a lot of overlap between these two agencies. Thank you for ending this turf war and helping establish peace amongst our regulatory bodies. Um my my next question is around really where we go from here. there's going to be winners and losers. And so, you know, given that, you know, AMMs are technology on the on the security side and wallets are technology and these guys don't need to register as brokers, I'd imagine that maybe the guys that are registered as brokers and have been for quite a while are kind of looking at this with maybe, you know, a raised eyebrow. And so as we think about, you

know, those who are kind of skating to where the puck is going and and will I'm curious from mostly for the security side, who do you think are going to be the biggest winners and losers of the tokenization exemption and and what it enables now going forward? >> Yeah. I mean, one point to what you said is it's there's still a regulated entity in this mix, right? It's really just clarifying who needs to do what and who is responsible for this transaction, right? And then you're still very clearly held to the same standards and held the same laws and everything as part of that. So I I think there's just great, you know, opportunity for, you know, this whole idea of like No Gardens, right? Like one of the potential with blockchain technology is that this kind of more open nature of it where you're not getting trapped into

one relationship just cuz your parents happened to bank with them 30 years ago, right? you are able to pick and choose not only where you do your business but what products and services you plug into your own front end which gets very interesting blockchain you can think about it with like MCP and AI right how you can like talk about Moonpace doing some incredibly cool stuff with AI and MCP so that's I think the direction by which this is going where people are going to be able to choose and you're really going to have to compete on user experience and convenience uh and cost and that's just very very good for the consumer uh so you know I think lots of the traditional firms are certainly going to be some of the winners of this. But people who have this mindset that oh I just collect money on the friction or oh I can just trap my customer that's

going to be a loser in the long run. >> The regulation is not and we always this is 100% my philosophy. Regulators don't pick winners and losers. That is not the job of the regulator. What the regulator is supposed to do is create a level playing field. These are the rules of the game. Everybody's on the field. You know made the best man win or woman. So basically I think that's what we're seeing is we've got again clear rules of the road. You know what the rules are and you go out and you put your best foot forward. The thing is is that if you think about banks or you think about um other large uh financial services firms, they do so many different activities and by the way most of them are at the forefront of financial technology right so you know it's not

just the startup that has the cool technology I mean if you look at what you know city JP Morgan all these innovations that came from actually big banks so providing more clarity about what is a regulated activity versus what's just a technology service um they can compete on the technology service as well and so that's why I really feel like this is not about winners or losers it's creating a level playing field so everybody knows like where the things are and so Moonpay has some of the most you know regulated footprint around the world we are all over the world as I described licensed in all these jurisdictions we also have unregulated technology services um products and so now we know this one's regulated and this one's not regulated and anybody is now has that >> yeah absolutely And and so let let's

bring this home. WTGXX will on the utility side and and Caroline on the distribution side. Let's just talk about the step function that is now enabled as a result of this. The the exemptions that we're seeing on both of these agencies, but also the partnership between your two companies. What do what are you seeing on the utility side and Caroline on the distribution side? >> Really the uh the announcement was around making WTGXX available to Moonay users who are eligible to be investors in the fund and making it a really seamless investing process. Right. So the classic example is you could be holding a stable coin that's earning no yield money at rest and you want to be earning US dollar yield on it while having like a safe stable value product. That's exactly what money market funds are for. And not only can you invest in the money market fund but you can do it

within your own rails and instantly right. So doing like an instant transaction where you can purchase or maybe more importantly sell the money market fund instantly uh for a stable coin then go on and do your payment or whatever other transaction that is. So that's really what the functionality is for this tokenized you know 287 40act money market fund that makes it we think very re like relevant for everyone particularly people who live their lives on chain. What we are solving for here is very simple. How do you actually invest in a money market fund? Um currently if I want to invest in a money market fund I can go to wisdom's website. I can go through my own brokerage account at city and do a lot of things and it takes a while to settle and it's kind of complicated right. I got to transfer money from my checking

account into my brokerage account and so on. What we're solving for here is making it as frictionless and seamless as possible to invest in money market funds. Exactly as Will said, from where you are. So, we're going to have everything wallets in the future. We're going to have these wallets where it's your checking account, it's your cash, it's your savings, it's your stable coins for payments, it is your tokenized money market funds for investments. So, you've got uh stable coins. Moon Pay allows you to buy and sell stable coins all over the world to convert crypto to stable coins, to convert one kind of stable coin into another type of stable coin. And now we're just adding to that functionality. Now you can take your stable coins and invest in money market funds. And so this is going to be about the user experience. So we have partners

that we work with, all of our wallet frontends that we partner with. They're going to try to work on making that available in a regulated compliant way. Um, and we have it so that we can now surface and distribute WTGXX to all of these partners. I mean, it's really, I don't know, it's like let a thousand flowers bloom. It's exciting to kind of take that distribution machine that Moon is and now focus it on providing better investment opportunities for everyday Americans. >> I love it. I love it on the utility side, on the distribution side, on the SEC and the tokenization side and the CFTC side. Guys, thank you so much. This is truly the convergence and I really appreciate you taking the time here at

AVAC Summit. Thank you. See you again soon. Absolutely. Will. Thanks so much, guys. We'll be right back with more coverage day two at Avac Summit. We get deep. We get deep. We know. We get deep.

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We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. Hey hey hey. We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep.

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We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep.

We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know, we get deep. We get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get deep we get we get deep know we get We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep.

We get deep. We get deep, you know. We get deep. We get deep. We get deep. You know we can >> we're back here at Avalanche Summit day two. We're here with Gabe Aut the founder and CEO of dinari sec tokenization exemption day. What a day.

What a time to be alive. Gabe, how you doing? >> Doing all right. >> Good, good, good. >> Andy's euphoric cuz Zcash is pushing 1,500. Uh, it feels like we're being validated by the market because we've been just preaching ever since things were so apathetic and it felt like just nothing could really take us up or down. We've just been continuously day in and day out talking with people that are just building the future of finance such as yourself. Uh, and today, not only is the market validating us, but also the regulatory bodies. And I'm sure you must feel vindicated as well because this tokenization exemption feels as if it was written specifically for dinari. And so maybe you could just give us the reaction both your personal reaction then how dinari is reacting to this exemption how people should be thinking about this.

>> Yeah I you you said it. I couldn't have written it better myself. Um, I think the surprises to me because we knew it was going to be KYC. Um, because their consumer protection is really important, right? So, it wasn't going to be this permissionless thing. Um, and and we knew that it was going to support venues trading uh tokenized stocks, which was great. I think for me the surprise was like they just cut out synthetics alto together. >> Yeah. >> Um, and and really validated this idea of like, yeah, just because it's tokenized doesn't mean that the consumers get less, right? they have to get the same uh rights and uh exposure as if you're actually owning the stock. But for as long as your tokenized stock is that is stock >> right

>> now it can be traded on uh DeFi venues that are also compliant. Um and like that's a huge breakthrough. Um you know we're already launched in the US but what we can now do uh allow people to do with our dshares is way more unlocked than it used to be. >> Yeah. Incredible. >> I love it. And and so, you know, one of the things that we're we're continuing to hear is that the SEC and the CFTC, but in this case, the SEC, is looking for feedback. Like really what this is, this tokenization exemption is a proposal. >> It's like a pilot almost.

>> It's like a pilot proposal that they're putting out there. And now we're in this comment period. And the SEC in particular is looking for commentary on this proposal. And my understanding is that both on the depth and scope of this proposal, they're looking for feedback. You know, it's a temporary proposal and it's somewhat limited. And so, like you said, limited to permission, right? Not full permissionless open access. And so, as we think through the comment period and what this ultimately looks like when it goes into effect, you know, they can't do too much and make it too broad or so infinite because, you know, then they get sued by different states and different legislators. And so what should they be emphasizing from your perspective as an industry leader building tokenized assets? What should the SEC take into account during this

commentary period to really tighten this exemption and make this as strong a guidance as it should be? >> Yeah. So I think the main thing to keep in mind for the regulators is how do we bring all these like onchain features to stock trading without violating the protections that already exist for the end user. Okay, >> that's the that's the needle that they have to thread and I think that's what they're using this 5year period to really try to figure out of like what's going to be allowed and what's not going to be allowed so that we can have all these uh benefits to onchaining stocks without destroying the capital markets. >> Okay.

>> Um so like you know case in point AMMs which is part of this innovation exemption right they're allowed to handle tokenized stocks. >> Well what's the b uh benefit of AMMs compared to clubs? Well, uh, one very straightforward, uh, uh, thing that we can test now is tickerto ticker swaps, right? Uh, Apple directly to Nvidia doesn't happen today. Um, is that a net benefit for the end user and how is that a taxable event, right? if you do a direct swap ticker to ticker as opposed to uh settling in cash as an intermediary. These are the types of questions that really need to be uh answered for the benefit of the end user um without you know uh completely

upending the capital markets. >> Yeah, I love it. Um when it comes to thinking about the permission nature that was in that language, what does that mean to you? >> Well, look, they did away with bearer bonds and things like that for a reason. Um, I was actually very comforted to see that because they're not really bringing back this concept of bearer, you know, stock or something along those lines. That's rife with fraud. Fraud is bad for all of us. >> Just straight up, right? We enjoy the uh deepest liquidity and the big uh the most trusted capital markets in the US because there were these rules that were put into place against AML and you know, all these kinds of things. And so um to me this is them taking the right step of like it's not going to be a free-for-all

guys but we are going to test this uh innovation that we call blockchain and see how it can upgrade the capital markets and that's a great thing. Yeah, I I love it. >> And and you guys have tokenized so much, right? The entire S&P 500 plus assets, the index itself as well. And so I think dinari has the widest breath. The aperture is pretty much like no one even comes close to the aperture that you currently have on tokenized equities and stocks in the US. Now I think what we're going to start to see more of is yes swaps direct tickerto ticker swaps through AMMs that is now possible >> but also like additional modalities of interacting with these tokenized assets. I mean just 30 minutes ago, maybe an

hour ago, the CFTC put out guidance itself that and I I don't want to get this wrong, but I mean basically that a lot of >> passive derivative products are going to be allowed to be like kind of like in a testing ground almost >> and you don't need to register as a broker in order to facilitate that type of transaction. And so I mean how do you see as someone who's focused on the tokenization of these assets? How do you see the different forms of utility? Meaning really my question here is like will dinari facilitate per US equities. >> Yeah. So the short answer is yes. Um and what what all of these innovation exemptions now allow are really interesting things like asset settled per

um you can now buy Nvidia stock on chain. you can atomically borrow against that uh on a or something like that and then put it into perfs. >> That's insane. >> All of that's possible now. >> Yeah. >> In the US, that's crazy. >> We would not have thought that would been even a remote possibility a year ago. >> Yeah. So, help me understand um this transfer agent modernization dynamic for your company, right? Because Tinari has a broker dealer license. Y >> um you have a transfer agent. uh you are FINRA registered. Um but other companies are not. Yeah. And they do not have the broker dealer. They're not FINRA registered, but they may have a transfer

agent, which means if this modernization rumor comes true such that transfer agent companies can be issuers of tokenized securities, the aperture for your competition drastically increases. However, why am I wrong? And what can Dinari do to facilitate those companies that have a transfer agent but may not have what you guys have on the infra side to be able to be collaborative rather than competitive? >> Yeah, I look it's always been uh collaborative uh because you have the national market system which dinari can work within uh with our of our licenses and then you have the transfer agents that are minting new asset classes outside of NMS, right? those things can

coexist. Now, today's innovation exemption is interesting. >> Yeah. >> Because one of the things that it explicitly said was you don't need issuer buyin, which is one of the things that the transfer agent guys talk a lot about of like you need to, you know, work with the issuers. The SEC said you don't have to. >> Now, the issuers can basically have a veto power, you know, type of a thing. Um, but barring that, like you can essentially uh work without the issuer uh buying directly. Now, the issuers being bought in enables uh the permissionless um uh trading potentially, >> okay, >> um of those asset classes. That's something that's not going to happen within the national market system, but

it might happen outside of the national market system. Um but the problem is is uh the the issuer sponsored ones, they have an issue of scale. They have to go issuer by issuer by issuer by issuer. and those, you know, maybe they have these cool features like permissionlessness or something like that. I'm willing to bet that 99% of people engaging with the capital markets don't care about that. The 1% that do care will uh can work with the issue sponsored uh models, but then everything else still falls under broker dealers anyway. Um and so like those things are not mutually exclusive at all. I guess to summarize like is it fair to say that dinari's dshares are the core product for your company and for your brand? However, the infrastructure that you guys have from a regulatory perspective as well as

technology perspective is scalable to other issuers if they're interested in launching tokenized assets as as well. >> Yeah, we work with uh all sorts of issuers. We work uh uh we we mint and uh uh tokenize things without the issuer. Um and we can do both. >> Got it. Okay. So just close that loop that that transfer agent issue if that comes true. you see that as a net positive due to the potential expansion of tokenized asset issuers in relation to the you know possible clientele for your company versus competitive in terms of the other issuers outpacing what you guys are doing. Would you say that's

accurate? >> Yeah, the transfer agency doesn't supersede what we have done with the broker dealer stuff. >> Okay. Um but I believe in a world where everything should get tokenized and so the more permissive uh the tokenization at the transfer agent level >> the better. >> Okay. So building on that, so so tokenization at the transfer agent level widens the aperture whereas restricting it to only the issuers means that the transfer agents have a limited power.

>> As we unpack and un deregulate some of the national market system that you're talking about, giving transfer agents more power allows tokenization to happen more quickly. >> That's the hope. >> Okay. That's the hope. And so, you know, how how deep do we think this goes? Like, you know, I is it possible the transfer agents get this power to deregulate and then ultimately tokenize? And then when it comes to, you know, all right, now that these things are tokenized, the possibilities that we have available to us to do things with these assets on chain, >> what is the regulation? Where do we stand right now? At what layer is that part regulated? Are we looking for modernizing and deregulating rules at the transfer agent layer or is it the reduction of these broker dealer

regulations that ultimately okay you know we've gotten these things tokenized now it's time for them to flourish so we don't want to force some of the technology providers to register as broker dealers that's what is going to allow for higher monetary velocity of tokenized assets to allow them to flourish all across the onchain economy. >> Yeah. So this is where the innovation exemption today comes in, >> okay? >> Cuz they're trying to find that bar, the SEC, right? Because on one hand, it sounds cool for people to have direct access to these assets without broker dealers. On the other hand, there are things like SIPC insurance, which is like the FDIC for brokers, right? Where if somebody steals your shares, are you insured? >> Right.

>> Right. Um, and that's built in if you go through a broker dealer. And so like these protections exist and have been built up over the years to protect the consumer. The SEC is not going to do away with all of that overnight. >> Um and so they're going to try to find that balance of, you know, freedom of access with protections. >> Yeah, >> makes sense. Uh Gabe, last thing for you from us. I know it's been a quick segment today. Um given there's a bit of speculation here on what's possible with this transfer agent modernization. It's obviously going to happen in some capacity. We don't know what, but we do know what's in front of us. Based on the information that you've received in the last 48 hours, clarity failing, this exemption, this CFTC ruling, just give

us a sense of like what changes in your thesis or in your plans or in your strategy. Yeah, this is a wonderful thing of you uh you know, you're right. when this happens, nothing nothing changes about our plans. Um because our conviction has always been upgrade the capital markets without uh taking away rights for the end user. If you can thread that needle, what the SEC has shown is they're backing that strategy 100%. Right? And so I I I think you know this is a little bit of vindication of like we've been harping on this um of like you can't take away rights and there is a way to tokenize without taking away those rights while bringing all the modernization uh forward. Um so

that's what we're going to continue to do. >> Incredible. Thank you so much. Dinar has been >> excited. We're excited. >> We we absolutely are. And Dinar has been a fantastic partner on the man. Thank you so much. >> And uh we're excited to build out this segment together. Yes. Thanks, guys. Cheers, guys. Thanks, buddy. >> All righty, guys. Uh, bullish segment number I don't even know. Add infin at this point. Uh, we got John Nahas off Aval's Avalanche. Everything else in between. Market's ripping. Yeah. >> Zcash is almost $1,500. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Near is $3. >> Near is $3. Hype is about to push to a new all-time high likely over the weekend. Uh, Bitcoin is not even moving.

>> Staying where it is. >> Bitcoin hasn't even moved where it is. >> If BTC Hey Frank, >> Bitcoin still 77K. If it goes even in to 85, we are going to be partying. Come down right now. >> Come. Ah, never mind. Sorry. >> Yeah. Yeah. Frank, get in there. I already crashed one interview. >> I uh How was your panel up there with Kevin? I heard him uh talking about his chain. >> You know, he started mentioning a chain and I was like, "Well, I got a I got a chain for you, but it's a blockchain."

Uh he's great. Look, he it's it's great to have him here. He has a great view into the world on investing, on the institutional side, on an enterprise side, but more importantly on retail and consumer as well, right? He touches a lot of things. He's very involved on the uh on the compliance side and the regulatory side. So hearing his thoughts especially this week with clarity and all the stuff we've been doing was just great. >> Yeah. And why is it important that he's here? You know obviously mentioned that there's this consumer component. You know you guys have uh different tokenization uh segments on Avalanche, right? He also told us when he was uh here earlier today about his view on alternative asset classes, right? Obviously he's got one of one baseball card around his neck. He's very bullish on alternative assets and you guys are tokenizing a lot

of alternative asset classes on Avalanche. Maybe you can just talk to us about your view on the asset class and then also he called avalanche the pick and shovel, right? The infrastructure that is powering this development. So your view on the asset class and also the infrastructure powering this. >> Look, I think and me and him mentioned we talked about this on stage, right? Like >> I think as an industry we started dabbling in this which was NFTs, right? NFTs were great, but it was crypto's like 1.0 version of alternative asset classes and particularly collectibles. You know, I've talked to his team like over the last course the course of the last year about the the role of collectibles and that's an emerging asset class. It's become an emerging alternative asset class. He has a fund for it. I believe AJ Scaramucci as well has a fund for it. Now you're starting

to see funds come out for collectibles as an alternative asset class and tokenization is a natural way to digitize that and to transfer that. So I think of this as like NFTs 2.0. you know, where it's not just a digital like a digital uh image, but more a digital representation and securitization of the collectibles that all of us grew up with, right? Like I remember pogs, right? And ripping card packs and doing all these great things like you know, he was saying like that Otani card like like there's 150 million dads and kids in America. You're not going to be able to afford a $14 million card, but you can afford a part of it, right? >> And that could be a cool birthday gift.

That could be something you give somebody fractionalize it like you know and crypto talked about fractionalization for the longest time and just because you have you can fractionalize something doesn't mean you should but this is an asset class alternative asset class particularly collectibles where fractionalization is great but why not and and also in multiple other asset classes as well I mean we're now starting to see the development of tokenized equities and dividends and people can own parts of a stock in their crypto portfolio with fractional ownership that can dispersed through various different mechanisms. >> You can't do that in a brokerage account. You have to have one share of a given of a given equity. I mean, people on the FOMO app right now, they've got 2 of tokenized Nvidia and they've got the you know what I mean? >> And the me the meme uh pairs and all

that great stuff. I mean, look, cryp you leave it up to the crypto world. We find ways to make the craziest things in the world, but it is innovation at some level, right? And so my like with that, just like with NFTs is like NFTs 1.0 know where that's going to go I think shows what we could keep innovating and doing I think you had like stock slices one of the guys started doing that as well but with fractionalization of of equities and everything else it just opens it up and more importantly it opens it up to the rest of the world right like the like we still have people who think I can't afford a bitcoin because one bitcoin is too much so the fra like just the fact that you can have a part of a bitcoin so if we start getting that word out there globally

whether it's equities or alternatives the ability for people to start owning and earning and generating yield. It's just a great opportunity. >> Yeah, John, I I I'd love to get into the nooks and crannies of collectibles and fractionalization, but I think there's somebody else to talk to about this. I got to ask you, man, you're the man of the hour here. What is the thesis for Avalanche today? >> Yeah. What's the vision? What are you really trying to do here? You know, it's been around for so long. You guys have gone through different iterations of what you guys think is the right way to build this thing. What your distribution strategy is, who your user is. What is the high level here? Like what is Avalanche today? Look, so our northstar is adoption and everybody uses that term so broadly. The way we look at it is

simple. It is embedded. It's the embedded finance stack, right? So taking companies online onchain. So your account is a wallet. Your dollar is a stable coin. Your yield is DeFi. Your assets are tokenized. digitizing the rails, moving it away from this 40-year patchwork of like, you know, band-aids that have made things incrementally faster and cheaper, moving companies onchain. We we we talked about this yesterday with Iris, right? Iris is a new L1 on Avalanche. They're bringing 3 million SIM verified users from Bolivia, from a telco in Bolivia, and they have 13 more Telos coming on chain. These are users that are SIM verified. It's not a guy with a 100 wallets, so it's 100 users. These are real humans with SIMs backing them. the dollars that are that are that are transferred between users and streamed live is going to be

happening using stable coins streaming money moving things on chain moving businesses on chain and launching digitally native companies from day one right so that's kind of the whole that's >> and on the economic side what does that look like John I mean grab if you have a press >> well yeah because I I I I want to try to tie together some of these threads right because earlier we also talked about how Hondaai right is is executing transfers across jurisdictions, right? And and also FIFA you guys are working with, right? And you're tokenizing collectibles and you're talking about Teleos coming on Avalanche. And so help tie these things together for us, right?

Because I think we're thinking about, you know, is Avalanche a consumer chain? Is it an an institutional chain? How do you reconcile and ultimately put together a cohesive and comprehensive vision? >> It's an economy. you're building an economy >> where all these things are playing together in the same ecosystem. How do you how do you position that? >> Look, I'll I'll take it back to our north star in our new in our new uh kind of slogan which is it's technology built for business, right? Like it's not like we we love the community aspect. We love the innovation that's happening that's to the community to do and we will love to see them succeed and support them. Our job at least on on the labs side is to bring businesses on chain. And what does that mean? That means proving out the thesis and I think we're at a stage now where this industry is at a like a

critical juncture um where people want to see real revenue and real adoption and real growth. And that's the kind of stuff we've been doing for 2 years when there's been narratives and hypes and cycles and look you guys cover a lot of narratives and hypes and cycles on the daily. Um but what's good like this is effectively a war of attrition. Who's going to remain who's going to who's going to bring real companies on ch on chain? You know Kevin Olirri was talking about that. We had Michael from NY here talking earlier as well. We have Hyundai. We have all these great companies that are looking at Avalanche as that settlement layer. The big vision comes down to this. The Cchain is open for everybody. That's the global liquidity hub. You launch an L1 on Avalanche. You have the liquidity from the Cchain. Your token can transact on

the Cchain and connect. We've done the hard work and the heavy lifting for you. And the liquidity, if you're a stable coin issuer or anything else, can flow there. So, you don't need to go and rebuild the chain from scratch. you plug in with your rules and everything else. And look, it's a big bet, right? Like it's easy to build a chain. We're about at 80 plus chains right now live on Avalanche. Uh we're looking at about 150 over the next several months coming on chain. And I think it's that critical mass and that tipping point where people will be like, "Oh, that's what they've been doing." >> It's not it might not be evident today, but that FIFA ticket, you know, was the first thing that we did. I think we powered like a significant percentage of secondary ticket sales for the World Cup. FIFA started with collectibles,

then they did tickets. They're going to do more. We're doing loyalty and rewards with sports teams. That's going to keep growing. We're doing tokenized assets and equity. That's going to keep growing. But back to the embedded finance kind of thing. If you have users across the world and in emerging markets and in the US holding different assets and transacting with different chains and using different things, you start to see assets move as easily amongst chains as you move a file on your desktop from from a folder to another. >> That's the ultimate goal. What does that coales into? It means businesses using blockchains to have to to to save money through operational efficiencies or launch new products that are digitally native from day one.

>> Yeah. Um, and then you'll start to see the flow start to happen. Yeah, man. I think you're right. Entirely on a vision, A, but even more so B on this kind of war of attrition, right? Like I know you're good friends with Chris over at Near. He's a good friend of yours and you guys were you tell me that you guys were hanging out at the Thai and stuff. And you know, there's a couple of these chains. You don't need to get into all the names, but there's a there's a handful of survivors now. Yeah. Right. There's a handful of like, oh, their brand is still legitimate. It's still they're still working. They're going to make money. either, you know, that their token is going to survive. They have a real thing going here and it's just been a handful of dozens of L1's and dozens

of L2s and dozens of attempts attempts. And so like we have this whole thing where it's like there's always this second mover advantage in crypto. You know, GMX launched, but then DYDX came in was like, well, we can do it a lot better, right? And then Hyperlid comes as a third mover and it's like we're going to do it the best. And you know, similarly, we've seen this in other sectors, but what I believe, John, now is where we're at is we're no longer in like the next like there's not an avalanche killer coming. It's more avalanche going and taking more market share of the existing market. Now, you're still going to compete with those names that I'm not going to talk about, but it's no longer like there's no third mover advantage from this point on.

We're kind of past that now. We're at like the grab, like the land grab era. How do you think about that, John? No, look, I agree with you, but I do think we're we're in a we're in a monumental shift. I' I've often said this. I think that first generation business plan of crypto is over. General purpose chains will exist. Some will exist. I do think there will be kind of a slow die off of the rest. Um, you know, Salana is doing a great job there, right? Near's focusing on uh on AI and stuff like that. And Robin Hood is now a consumer chain and I think competing with Salana and kudos to them. I have friends everywhere. We talk all the time. Uh, look, >> and it helps everybody. >> It helps everybody. But the problem with this industry is for the longest time I think it was a lot of PVP and how do we

take users from other chains like guys there's an entire world out there and we have trillions of dollars billions of people and there's trillions of dollars going on chain and like this industry is past that I think and starting to get past that. Let's grow the pie and there's plenty for all of us. We're no longer in the world of let's justify this technology. Let's justify this industry. It's who's going to win on what, right? So you have your consumer chains that are doing trading or whatever and that stuff. But I do think the era of general purpose is coming to an end. Look, I'm a little bit old enough to remember AOL in the early days. You would log on and you'd have everything on one page, right? Your chat, your email, your finance, your games, and everything else. That was kind of what general purpose chains have

been trying to do for the last several years. Incrementally faster, incrementally cheaper, this niche, that niche, or another. But the tech wasn't built for that. It was built for whatever we could find PMF for. I think we're moving into the next phase of that. you know, the chains that have that that advantage, whether it's ETH or others, um, will have that, but I think the expansion is going to happen horizontally. >> Sure. >> And I think that's where we're different. Avalanche L1's bring that specificity because institutions and enterprises and governments are going to want their own chain. We just brought 12, we're bringing 12 a.5 million people in the UAE on chain with their digital identity program. That wouldn't have happened. They said, the regulator said this could only happen on Avalanche. South Korea's regulator came out two

weeks ago and said tokenization is going to happen on Basu fabric and avalanche. We're the only public public network that was listed there. This can only happen on avalanche. We have seen over the course of the past 2 3 weeks institutions and governments come out and say this can only happen on avalanche because of that customizability. Our focus has been on growth on on getting to the point where we become synonymous with that customization with that horizontal scaling and growth and then you know we start to turn some fee switches on and we we change the way the game is played. Yeah, man. I mean, I think it's so funny, Rob. We spend so much time doing modular versus monolithic conversations. Is is there going to be one chain? Is there going to be thousands of chains? >> You know, the answer is always somewhere

in the middle, right? But it does seem like this horizontal scaling that you're speaking about, John, is speaking to this specific opinionated product strategy, right? >> I think you're meeting the market where it is today, right? That's where the regulation is. That's where the market participants are and you're meeting them. And you mentioned that this is this critical juncture and we've seen these critical junctions before. I mean one of the things that we're hearing a lot today is you know what does it take to go from online to onchain like what is what is the role that Avalanche plays in that progression? I want to take a step back though. I think you mentioned something that that that's worth noting. You know this is where we are and what we've been doing but we've been trying to we've been doing this for 2 years. So

I will admit that we were early. >> We're a little bit too early with it, right? We were we were trying to teach people who were trying to understand how to use a blockchain about their own chain and they were just like, "Huh?" >> I mean, look at all the role as a service providers. I mean, they've really slowed down. >> They slowed down, right? And you've had some L2s that didn't work out anymore. We've had some L1's that we thought would be great ones that didn't need to be an L1 and we moved them back to the Cchain. This isn't this isn't a, you know, science. Sometimes it's an art. You know, where we step in is I think it's a twofold game. It's an EOS ecosystem growth game where we need to have the exchanges, the wallets, the liquidity providers, the stable coin issuers, and all the puzzle pieces that

come together. So, think of Avalanche as a city. My team and I work day in and day out to to build the roads and the bridges and the piping to allow anybody to come on. And that secondly is the business development function. So, instead of let me tell you about why blockchain, it's let me show you this case study. Yeah, >> let me show you how Iris is going to be monetizing this much more as a telco. Let me show you how FIFA made more money and saved on on fraudulent secondary ticket sales. >> Yeah, man. It's just pragmatism. It's leaving pragmatic. >> No more headlines. Case studies. >> Yeah. >> And then they come into our city and the roads are there, the piping is there, the electrical is there, and it works, and they can use it, and they're inspired by something else. >> Yeah,

>> that's effectively what we're building. >> I love it. I don't know much else, John. This has been great. I mean, I I know you're slam, so I really appreciate being here, guys. >> Next time we'll talk more about the fee switches. >> Yeah. Exactly. Thanks, John. >> Looking forward to it. Thank you. Love it. >> Thanks for your time. >> All right, guys. Out. It's been It's been a lot of fun. >> Amazing summit so far. Day two was fully in action. Quick standby. We're going to take a couple seconds and we'll be right back. Much love. Roll up army. Rollup nation. Zcash is $12 away from 1,500. Heat. Heat.

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roll up arm. If you're watching on YouTube, smash that like button, the subscribe button. Means a lot to us. The easiest way to support our channel. Working our asses off. Got Kevin Le for you guys this week. Never know who's going to be next and next month. I'm working my ass off to get you guys the best guests. I want to do it. It's fun for you. It's fun for me. Life's good. Uh market's ripping. I'm euphoric. I'm flying down to Florida. I got to put on the bachelor party for my best friend. I'm the best man. Um so, you know, use your imagination. It's going to be fun. Um not too much fun though. And yeah, I mean I'll be back Monday. Uh Robbie's going to close out. It's going to be great. We got a couple more interviews, more markets, more charts, all that good

stuff. Much love. Rollup army signing off. Love you guys so much. You guys make the show amazing. Really appreciate all what you guys do for us, showing up day in day out. We're printing cash on our positions. If you've been watching with us day in day out, you likely hold the same positions as we do. We are ripping. Our portfolios are pumping. We love y'all. Thanks so much. Peace. We get deep. We get deep. You know we get

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We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. Heat. Heat.

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We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know we get deep. We get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get deep we get >> yo yo yo what's going on guys this is itan with the rollup we're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have knows what are people trading, what are people investing in, how much do people actually budget.

We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. We get we get deep, you know. We get deep.

We get deep. We get deep. We know we get deep. Deep know we get deep. We get deep. We know we get deep. We know we get. >> All right guys, we are back. Avac day two and we are here with the tokenization queen. Olivia, welcome to the show. >> Thanks so much for having me. It's always a pleasure. I don't know if anyone else calls you that, but I truly do believe that you're the tokenization queen. And uh you're in your your uh your classic pink. And so uh it is Olivia's staple.

>> Uh and it feels like a special day because we have a tokenization exemption. >> Yes. >> And I'd imagine that there was some deep deep coordination between the SEC and Avalanche to release this during the AVAC Summit uh and specifically during our segment with you here today. And so first reaction, Avac Summit day two, we're on the home stretch now. What is your give me some takeaways. What has your reaction been? The feeling in the air, the energy is palpable. What are you feeling here? Avac Summit day two. >> First of all, I am so bullish on the Avalanche ecosystem and the space at large, especially upon this innovation exemption. Um, so uh timely that it coincided with the Avalanche Summit. Of course, I am so excited to see so many builders, investors in our ecosystem, variety of allocators, um, fintexs, enterprises, everyone in between who

have been either building on Avalanche or curious about building on Avalanche, convening here, having conversations that are are going to lead to partnerships. I've heard a lot of great feedback on the space and on the curated group um, that's that's attending, and we've just been so happy to see familiar faces as well as new faces here uh, during the summit. >> Beautiful. I mean, we had John Nahas on just a little while ago. He was telling us about the diversity that Avalanche has and I mean you've got >> companies like Honda and FIFA >> and at the same time you've got Kevin Oolir on stage wearing a one of one show Otani baseball card collect tokenizing collectibles like there is incredible breath and range of what's possible on Avalanche. And so from your tokenization mind, how have how has Avalanche what is

the unique advantage that Avalanche has that you're able to build something so general and flexible that it caters to, you know, some of the largest institutions out there all the way to consumer applications. >> Yeah, absolutely. So from an architectural standpoint, Avalanche is a network of purpose-built layer 1 blockchains. The architecture offers subsecond finality. It's EVM compatible. So builders that have been operating in the Ethereum ecosystem or on a variety of L2s can very easily port their existing projects or build on on Avalanche. And so that architecture lends itself to a variety of use cases. FIFA collect has its own layer one blockchain for collectibles and they were very popular during the World Cup um given that they were uh providing these right to buy tickets. And beyond that, we also have the cities and JP Morgans who have built layer 1

blockchains um in test net on on avalanche for things like bilateral spot FX trades or automated portfolio management. And so that architecture again because it's purpose-built, customizable, really lends itself to a spectrum of use cases, but the common through line across all of them is that Avalanche is technology built for business. Yeah. And again, it that spans everything from credit markets to variety of equ tokenized equities to tokenized assets writ large to ticketing with the FIFAs of the world. Um we're also powering the ticketing and loyalty platforms for the Detroit Pistons, the Cleveland Cavs, um and a variety of of college teams. So it's really exciting to see the architecture at this point shining so brightly across so many use cases in our ecosystem >> and and it feels like you know so many

things are converging and culminating in this tokenization super cycle. >> Yes. you you've got, you know, the regulatory efforts, which we'll get to in a second, but you've also got kind of this convergence of Tradfi and digital assets, and then on the regulatory, you've got this upgrade from just pure paper. >> Yes. >> To first to digitization and then to tokenization. And and again, John was on here and he was kind of talking about this progression from online to onchain. And it's something that we've heard a lot about here at the summit. And so maybe you can just give us your perspective on the progression as online businesses come onchain. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first and foremost, there has to be a reason to go from online to onchain, right? And so a

lot of the enterprises and institutions that we're working with, I mentioned this on the show last time. I've been targeting 1500 fints like neo banks, well tech platforms, remittance platforms growing up into financial super apps. Neoanks really runs the gamut. All of them what they have in common is that they need to be able to go to their seuite and make a business case and make a case for a business outcome that will be achieved through tokenized rails. And so that can look like topline revenue drivers, that can look like cost efficiencies, that can look like net new distribution capabilities that are made possible by tokenization. And so I'd say first and foremost that transition from online to onchain has to be accompanied or driven by a business outcome or um objective at the outset. And then the more case studies and the more quantifiable metrics that we have around entities

like Columbia Neo Bank LIO with 500,000 users uh being able to offer yield to its end users who don't know or care that avalanches on the blockchain but know that they can access money market fund like yields. That's key and we need to be able to replicate that at scale across a variety of use cases. >> Yeah. And that that's what businesses want to see. It's not just theory, right, and concepts and education. A lot of it is now very tangible and these case studies help prove the value proposition to these businesses >> and also the regulatory clearance is very important. So let's zoom out a little bit. We got huge news out of the SEC and the CFTC, but I think the SEC is maybe a little bit more pertinent to our conversation here. This tokenization exemption. >> Yes.

>> You know, there's this permissioned exemption that allows AMM technology providers not to register as broker dealers. This feels like a massive weight that's been on the industry's shoulders now lifted and it feels like, you know, we're just going to rerate and and have this step function in terms of growth and adoption from your perspective. >> Maybe you can just untangle this for us, unpack what really did the SEC propose today and what are the implications. >> Well, first of all, it's a se a 60 some odd uh page paper, so you all can delve into that on your weekend reading. that uh I'll first off say looking at um Chair Atkins remarks, he's very focused along with the rest of the SEC on giving the guardrails for responsible

innovation and this innovation exemption is um one of the uh steps toward that responsible innovation end state and I'm very excited uh based on the the clarity that they've given. Obviously, it's very, you know, disappointing that the Clarity Act didn't pass this week, but I think again from a statutory perspective, the SEC is putting in place the guard rails that we need for tokenized equities to really flourish and grow at scale and to achieve more permission DeFi use cases, which we can get into. Just to recap for the audience, um the SEC came out with an innovation exemption today and basically allowed for qualified venues or qualified parties known as TSVs or tokenized securities venues to facilitate the onchain trading of tokenized equities. Um there are some you know caveats to that in that it's

it's effective immediately. um it's available they can facilitate the onchain trading through AMMs or automated market makers or liquidity pools on public permissionless chains but again that's that'll be effective immediately and I think the cap is through 5 years that has sanctions compliance requirements that has permission access requirements of these TSVs and importantly especially in light of the recent spat between Robin Hood CEO and um AMC's team uh there's an issuer consent clause in there and so basically these TSVs have to get the blessing or consent of issuers um within a certain time frame in order to offer synthetics. Um and by the way, the other thing to add is that um these synthetic rappers were not included in the

innovation exemption. So this is really inclusive of just issuer sponsor tokenization, Allah bullish, Allah securitize with whom we work very closely um all superstate and then also of the more custodial model that we've seen with dinari who I know you guys are are close partners with. We had Gabbon talking about tokenized equities just a little while ago and I've got a couple of questions just to clarify my own understanding here. So when you say uh tokenized securities venues, it sounds like this exemption is primarily focused on the venues where these things are traded or lent out the utility after it's tokenized. The tokenization itself brings these things on and we'll we'll kind of get into the nitty-gritty about how they're tokenized. But when it comes

to the venues that are not required to register as broker dealers, >> is that primarily what this exemption is for? It's for after this thing is tokenized, the DeFi use cases, the AMMs, the lending markets, the utility. These guys pretty much have full reign within a permissioned environment to do what they do in terms of the facilitation of economic utility for these tokenized assets. >> Yeah, I mean I would say you're you're correct in that and just to to zoom out. I mean the the exemption and I'll quote it is for who whatever venue is facilitating the onchain trading of these tokenized equities. But I think of course that does impact and it's very important for the tokenization platforms that are issuing these equities or equity tokenized equities >> and and so the when you say they have to

get permission from the issuer, right? Cuz we've seen a couple different models. >> Yeah. >> I I think I don't want to misquote. So someone came on earlier, I forget who, but someone came on and said that they're issuing these at the transfer agent level. >> Okay. And so when in order to to to take you know capitalize on this exemption you would have someone would have to get permission from the transfer agent not necessarily the company itself. Is that >> you have to get permission from the issuer the transfer agent of the company. And so just to to put that into perspective that's that category is issuer sponsored tokenization. What does that mean? That means direct native onchain issuance of a of a tokenized equity where you know that the tokenized equity is the legal share and the um you know share of record

>> on record and so that's what superstate bullish securitized many of whom are existing partners of ours are pursuing. The issue is that that could have that could entail a coordination problem, right? Because you have to go to each issuer um or company and transfer agent and request that they opt in or opt out to tokenize an equity. And obviously, if you look at Bullish, which acquired Equinity, they're dealing with 2,000 3,000 odd relationships. Going to each of those relationships and pitching them to tokenize their equity takes time. >> Why would they want to tokenize their equity? That's another great question. M >> they have in that case more visibility into the shareholder. Why do we care about visibility in the shareholder? >> Previously these companies say like a Home Depot for example have had have not always known the individuals or or

specific shareholders that are on their um on their cap table. What's important is that basically bullish and these other models are saying hey with issue response or tokenization you can know your shareholder and pitch them I won't say perks but other advantages such as accelerated dividends such as um hotel rewards such as points so that you can create a more direct relationship with your shareholder and know your shareholder base better now versus today those are those relationships are kind of obstocated by DTCC and this custodial model where you have um you know an entitlement to a claim on a share and the on the on the cap table you'll just see a DTCC or seed in company or sedan um or street name that's not specific on on what shareholder is involved.

>> Okay. Okay. And so the idea is that by tokenizing these shares we have more insight into or the issuer the company has more insight into who owns those shares. >> Yes. And and just to make sure I understand this coordination problem, you're saying that it's import that, you know, let's say, you know, some company works with 2,000 3,000, you know, of of these companies and, you know, all of them understand that tokenizing is the way to go. Do they still have to go to each and every one or can you tokenize at the level of, you know, the layer above where you can kind of get whether it's issuer or transfer agent approval and you get all two two or 3,000 downstream. Well, now especially with this issuer consent um clause or piece of the innovation exemption um you will have to go to each of those issuers or

companies and so as I understand it and um the the idea is also you know you have to pitch them on why they would want to tokenize their equity in the first place and so yes you have to go cultivate those relationships I'm very um confident in the ability of bullish to do that given they are closing on their equinity acquisition and so they have that distribution already similarly securitiz also partnering very closly ly with computer shares and continental. these represent the largest TAs in you know US financial markets um who already have those relationships but again it is a coordination challenge and if I were to have a crystal ball it would be very helpful to know over what timeline that should occur um and it could be you know with any other upgrade in financial markets it's a five to could be a 5 to 10 year process or more accelerated as

issuers like a Home Depot for example going back to my earlier uh reference >> recognize the benefits of issuer sponsor massive education and coordination lift >> and Equinity if you look at um some of the Equinity LinkedIn uh posts they've they've been doing webinars with their with issuers with their you know internal teams and so that is very much in process and I think also um Brett Redern from securitizer talked about this on the Unchained podcast last week and that securityiz is also going through the educational hurdles and educational um process for their you know issuer relationships. >> Yeah. So, not to be too reductive, but just to kind of sum this up and get some takeaways here. You know, this is a proposal. It's open for comments, right?

>> And and so, you know, we may see this thing adapt as comments come in, but as it stands today on day one of the comment period, is it fair to say this is maybe bullish for the venues where tokenized assets will be traded and lent out, but maybe a little bit bearish on, you know, the pace at which we're going to get tokenized assets. >> Yeah, that's a fair assumption. I mean, I think the pace is still an unknown to all of us regardless of the model. I think the one thing that we've observed about the synthetics model, and by the way, on Avalanche, we have all three models represented. And so, um, the pace is an unknown. Um, but I think what we've seen with the synthetics option is that it's been a far shorter time to market, right? They've been able to look

at Robin Hood stock tokens or look at the XOXOs on the world. They've been able to go to market and distribute outside of the US very quickly and efficiently for markets and individuals who may not have had access to a brokerage account before. And this is a step up from no price or economic exposure to equities at all and they don't necessarily care that it's tokenized. They just get access before. >> So are the synthetics going to have to like wind down? Are is Robin Hood stock token synthetic tokens going to have to comply be forced to comply with something that they previously didn't have to? I mean again I'll say that in the case of Robin Hood that those are debt securities issued outside of the US, right? And so they're not those are not under US securities law. And so as to whether or not the SEC's purview

would extend to um Robin Hood stock tokens or other synthetic rappers outside of the US, I think the answer is no. I think Dan Gallagher at at Robin Hood is a very smart individual and was an as you know at the SEC was a commissioner and has structured this in a a thoughtful legal way um and again outside of the US and so for them to bring that onshore that would bring a different raise a different set of questions about whether synthetic rappers would um would be feasible in the US at this point again the innovation exemption has excluded those so um it it's not eligible uh as a TSV at this point. >> Yeah. Well, Olivia, as always, I appreciate you just kind of educating myself and, you know, the rest of our audience because this is still somewhat murky, but ultimately it feels

directionally correct. It feels like we're making forward progress, >> but you know, the the the thing that I keep taking away is like the SEC is finally listening. >> This is such a paradigm shift from the Gary Gensler era. Sure, it may not be a perfect proposal, but that's exactly what it is. It's a proposal. Will you be making a comment and and sending a during this comment period? >> I I hope to do so. Um I think it's great. Again, the partnership with the SEC um has been incredible over the last 18 months. Uh we and our avalanche policy coalition are very excited about this innovation exemption. Um the ability to have greater rules of the road again at a statutory level because we don't have clarity act and um more of a market structure um market structure guardrail in place. But we're very

excited to see the continued partnership with the SEC. Very bullish on not only the various tokenization platforms that are building on Avalanche. I mentioned um the securitizes of the world who have been a great partner since 2022 with the tokenization of their um of the KKKR fund but also with the dinaris of the world who have taken a very compliance forward approach of having you know becoming an SEC registered TA of securing a broker dealer um capability and license and their ability to to distribute tokenized equities in the US in the existing framework today. >> The tokenization queen Olivia Van Wood, thank you so much as always. always so much fun and congratulations on a great summit. >> Thank you so much.

>> We're gonna keep it rolling. We'll see Olivia very soon >> as always. Thank you all. >> Absolutely. She can exit stage left whenever she's ready. >> Whenever I'm ready to go. >> Are you honestly? >> Uh we're going to keep it rolling. I think we've got about 6 7 8 9 10 who knows more interviews. >> Uh if you want to stay and co-host, be my guest. >> You want to? >> Really? Wait, what time? >> All right, guys. We're We're going to figure we're still live. We're going to keep figuring it out. She really is. She really is invited. I'd be happy to have her. Uh, we've got five more interviews. >> And so, next up, we're going to bring Jules Miller from Iris. >> Very exciting.

>> We're going to bring her right on up. >> Thanks, guys. >> Thanks, Olivia. >> And, uh, we're going to keep things rolling, guys. We are on the home stretch here. AVAC Summit day two. It's been an incredible week here in New York. Iris stable coins for telecom. She is going to join us very very soon. >> Jules Miller, hello. >> Nice to see you. >> Absolutely. Thanks for being here. >> Thanks for having me. >> And uh congratulations on uh everything that you and Avalanche are doing together. John was on just a little while ago. He was talking and was very excited about bringing uh telecom on to Avalanche and uh you know I think you and the work that you're doing at Iris are uh front and center uh for that movement. So thanks so much for being here. Um, before we get into it in the

nitty-gritty around telecom on Avalanche, it's your first time on the show. I'd love just a little bit of an intro. How are you feeling Avac Summit day 2? >> It's so fun. So, uh, I So, this has been great. Uh, we have been working hard on this in stealth for the last year. So, it's fun to finally be able to talk about it. We officially announced yesterday. Uh, so Iris is the the network for telekcom operators. Um, and so we are actually launching with $43 million in funding committed and our first customer on chain. So we're here bringing real businesses on chain. >> $43 million is a real business indeed. Um I think the one thing that you know us as kind of blockchain people, we've been native in this industry. You know when we see a um a big business line from a b big business segment like

telecom, it's a massive total addressable market. We're obviously very excited that you know this adoption is happening. But, you know, we've gone through several generations of this industry and so we've kind of got this skepticism, right, in in in so far as making sure that these things are adopted not for the hype but for the underlying technology because we've been bamboozled before, right? >> Yes. >> Why is it important for the telecom industry to run on a blockchain? >> Great question. I think first thing I want to say is that I I was at IBM. I was in their blockchain group. I started their blockchain ventures group was doing their blockchain garage and we worked with a lot of enterprises who were really experimenting with blockchain but we had trouble getting value until there was a critical mass of the networks and what's interesting

there's two things that are interesting about what's different now and working with avalanche has helped us a lot is that there is value from day one and so just our first operator on the network uh is getting value immediately they've already seen the metrics so I can share a little bit about uh and the second part of that is that The thing that is special about the telecom industry is that they know who their customers are. They have SIM cards. They are verified using a SIM. When we look at something like advertising, there's $84 billion a year in advertising fraud and one in five uh ads goes to a bot. And so when we look at something like a SIMverified network of of lives or identities, then you can say like there's a lot that blockchain allows you to make sure you

know who you're who's at the end of the the uh the other side there. >> Yeah. And so is this fundamentally a digital identity or data play. >> So telecom operators are the original data company. They have the best data in the world as far as I'm concerned. um and they have allowed other people to use that data and monetize that data and they have not done it themselves. And so what's happening right now is the way we like to describe it is that the tele operators have built the rails and the hyperscalers have gone on top of that and created the value. So a fun stat that I like is that in the last few years I think since 2012 um McKenzie came out with a report saying the uh mobile growth has been 50% but the telecom industry has only captured 1% growth year on year and so the the delta is the hyperscalers and what Iris allows

the telecom operators to do is take back that growth uh and build it themselves. So they built the roads and now they can build the cities on top of it that other people were building. >> Yeah. you know, given your your history at IBM, you know, kind of just walk us through the learning moments, right? Like, you know, your your progression from serving in the blockchain lab at that company. What stuck out it and and kind of back in the day, you know, it was it was very it was tough roads, especially, I'd imagine, at a large corporation where this was treated very experimentally and sometimes the rubber doesn't meet the road and it stays kind of conceptual and you think that there's a lot of valuable theory, but it doesn't really get put into practice. here it finally seems as if it is getting put into practice. Just take us through kind

of the research and development phase ultimately culminating in what you have today and the experience that you've generated. >> I think IBM was very serious. They were technologists. they still are. They they were are really early to a lot of technologies and I think uh at the beginning of any industry there's enthusiasm for the technology and you kind of sometimes forget about the business afterwards and what's happening now which is very different and very special is and what we're doing with Valicia group and the the telecom space is that we're starting with the business and we're only adding the blockchain layer in after once it makes sense where I think we started the reverse way before because we were so excited about the potential of the technology we not that we forgot about the business but that secondary. Now we're at a moment where we're building real businesses and

then blockchain is coming in to support those real businesses. >> Yeah. And so you know you you mentioned hyperscalers building on the rails that the telecom industry has created. Maybe you can help us understand now like all right if the hyperscalers are building I'd imagine that there's several other companies and industry segments that are able to build on these rails. Maybe you can just walk through now what is possible and I'll just kind of start if you don't mind like there was this SEC tokenization exemption today that basically talks about why broker dealers don't need to register with onchain trading venues. They do however need to per per uh participate in this permissioned environment and that permissioned environment is because they need to enforce KYC and AML. They need data and

they need identity data in order to enforce that. And so that is a critical missing piece to what has previously been a somewhat relaxed regulatory kind of pseudonmous unregulated wild west. But that is now a critical piece of infrastructure. That data and identity piece is critical in the financial segment. How critical is it in other segments as well? maybe just give us a couple of examples in that data where will it be used? >> Uh it's a great question. Uh we've got some stuff cooking that I can't talk about yet, but a few a few things I will share. So number one, the the beauty of a network like this is that it's serious business people with really serious businesses who understand these highly regulated environments. My personal

background before IBM, I was in legal tech and so I have a real appreciation for compliance and legal u and so we're not doing anything uh that is hypothetical. We're not go like um going around any corners. We are starting from a place of like actual information, real data, real information and we are uh doing it in a compliant way. When we look at something it's it's not exactly kind of I want to give you an answer that I can't give you quite yet but uh but when you look at something we have two modules that we've launched. We've launched a uh super app module that allows the telecom providers to do like a white label WeChat or super app and then offer things to their customers.

And uh we've seen with our first our first network operator which is called Viva. It's in Bolivia. Uh that that is reducing their churn. It's increasing their customer lifetime value and they're able to track that exactly because they have direct access to the customers. And so we're not guessing at numbers. We're not worried about fraud. We're not worried about bots because we know the real numbers here. And those are things where this is just the starting point. When you see the the like the quality of that data, you start thinking about what else could be next. Tell us a bit more about this Viva case study. Who are they? What customers do they serve and who are other companies like Viva that will ultimately you think be on Iris?

>> Sure. So Viva is one of the top telos in Bolivia and they are it's an interesting place to start because that economy is very mobile first. They might not have the same bank accounts, credit cards, um other things that we take for granted every day as Americans. And so their telephone is their rails. is the is how they are paying for things. It's how they're accessing the world. It's how they're accessing the the internet. And so they are a great use case to start with because they're proving the model and they're proving why um starting in a place like Bolivia's first. We are most likely going to be focused on emerging markets first um and unlikely to be in developed markets because that that mobile first um uh type of economy is one that works really well for what we're doing. >> Incredible. Well, Jules, congratulations

on the $43 million uh as well as the partnership here with Avalanche. It's very very cool to see some of the use case at Avalanche has started to branch out of just the financial asset world and into the telecom world. Uh tons of adoption happening. Uh and so thank you so much for spending some time with us. >> It's exciting phase where we're getting real businesses on chain. Like I think we've been waiting for this and it's happening now which >> and it's so much more tangible than some of that experimental phase that I think all of us have seen. So it it is very very exciting times. >> Amazing. Well, thank you so much for having me. >> Absolutely. Well, we're going to uh get our next guest very soon. Uh thank you to Jules and uh we are on the home stretch here at day two of the AVAC

Summit. Let's do a quick check on the market. Oh my goodness. Zcash pushing $1,500 near above three. Avac, I'm sure, is ripping as well. And uh we are we are ecstatic. I wouldn't even say we're euphoric, but we are ecstatic. Uh we're going to get our next guest up in just a moment. Uh let's make sure our headlines are correct. Uh we're going to have uh Bart join us. Just peaked over my shoulder. We're going to have him walk around the other way. But uh Bart is at AVAT.

He is the CEO of the Avalanche Treasury Company. Uh they are publicly listed on the NASDAQ. uh and AVAT listed on NASDAQ in June through a $675 million spa merger. These are real numbers. We are moving beyond the uh experimental phase in crypto. Bart, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely. Thanks for being here. Avac Summit day two. Uh AVAT is the publicly listed on the NASDAQ uh Avalanche Treasury Company. >> And so what is what does it mean to be here at the summit? And we'll get into everything that uh that Avat is doing. Uh, I mean, the energy has been really good. It's been inconsistent with a lot of the other conferences I've been to.

Um, I think that, uh, it has more of a kind of Tradfi feel to it. A little less DGEN. I know some people, you know, are have differing opinions on that, opinions on that, but very much the people in the room are corporate adopters, uh, people representing governments and, uh, we just sat down with, uh, someone from the UAE talking about the ID, government ID pass that Avalanche just announced. So, I think overall the energy is fantastic and it feels good. >> Yeah. And, you know, we've spoken to so many uh, you know, Avalanche representatives today. We just had Olivia talk about tokenization. We had Morgan on VP of onchain finance. We had John Nahas talking about kind of this progression from online businesses to onchain businesses and he mentioned I didn't get too deep into it. We were

talking more a little bit about the Avalanche vision, but he did allude to some fee switches. And so with you today, I'd love to chat about the AVAC token, the Avalanche asset, and what the revenue model and the revenue profile looks like and just get a little bit more into the asset profile on Avalanche. We've got this thesis that we talk a lot about on the rollup. It's kind of hard money on one side, things with moneyiness. On the other side, it's real onchain businesses benefiting from what we call the revenue meta. And so there's really been a push to make a direct correlation between the revenue profile of the business and the value capture of the asset.

>> Y >> and so what is the revenue profile right now of Avalanche? And we'll get into how that value ends up flowing into Avac the token. So uh Matteas who is the uh chief investment officer of the Avalanche Foundation actually had a great uh panel yesterday that he he he led uh talking about the economics of the chain and and right now this is not an avalanche problem. It's a it's an an L1 problem that most of the revenue acrruel is dilution right so staking revenue right now you know depending on some varying factors uh you know you can expect a five or 6% staking yield today in in a terms by staking ax and you know that his point is that over time that is an unsustainable path right just the dilution becomes too much and so there's

a couple of things I mean I when most people talk about L1's they talk about kind of like the metaf law of like network network effects and and you're seeing at this conference um you know some of those things tie together Athena Pay uh which is a neo bank built on top of the Athena stable coin uh they're they're partnering with Rain Rain is a card issuer Rain is partnering with the state of Wyoming to to for their stable coin FR&T and so now you're starting to see these businesses create a network effect a community on top of Avalanche and so that's one way of looking at it and then obviously there's the stake rewards uh and and the problems in the long run of how they're going to change the economics around that. What I am most focused on at uh Avalanche Treasury Company is that there will definitely be value acroal to the security layer,

right, and to owning the actual underlying token, but there's also going to be application layers on top that are going to acrue value for a variety of different, you know, opportunities. So, if you've owned Ethereum since 2017, you've, you know, 2016, you've probably done pretty well. But you know you didn't get exposure to tether, you didn't get exposure to a you didn't get exposure to unis swap. You know all these applications that were providing you real value benefits on top of the application layer. And so our goal is over the course of the next you know 12 24 36 months to be able to to pro provide a holistic exposure to the avalanche ecosystem where we're owning parts of businesses or applications building on top of the layer. uh we're helping to build uh some businesses within our company that are revenue

generating to our shareholders and then of course owning the underlying AVAC token which we believe will crew in value as network value kind of grows and so there's like you know three different ways that we can kind of approach that. >> Awesome. So it's not just owning the underlying asset it's also contributing to the ecosystem that drives value to that underlying asset. Sounds akin to like a accelerator incubator that also has a financial stake and kind of puts its money where its mouth is. >> Yeah. It could be like a Bergkshire Hathway, right? Berkshire Hathaway is a company of, you know, companies. They have revenue companies they own outright. They own you know, pieces of other companies. And so I would think about it in a similar fashion to that.

>> Okay. Very cool. And so as we think about kind of the breadth of companies that are on Avalanche, I mean, you know, we were talking about FIFA and Hyundai on one side and then on the other side, Kevin Olirri had this one of one baseball card around his neck saying that he wants to tokenize it on Avalanche. So there's a really wide range and and and you know, as you think about a holistic portfolio construction that is made up of companies in this range, is there a consistent portfolio thesis that you can apply? Obviously, you know, the basis is that these are all on Avalanche, but what is kind of the the cohesive thesis that ties these companies together?

>> I think that the the from my experience and I I you know, I come from, you know, traditional finance, right? I was in ETF and fixed income trading for, you know, 15 years. Um oftentimes when I talk to people at you know leading positions at you know brokers, exchanges, asset managers and they look at comparing chains they all know that that 24/7 is coming 24/7 everything is coming. So everyone needs to have a blockchain strategy when they look at some of what I would call general purpose chains Ethereum uh Salana one chain that you're basically taking on their set of rules and those set of rules might not apply to your business whether it's you know tokenizing a baseball card or if you're a financial services company and you

have your private information or more importantly your customer's private information if you put that onto the Salana blockchain or Ethereum blockchain it's totally exposed and so the the the what I have seen with the with the multi-chain structure that is avalanche that those companies if it suits their business need they can spin up their own L1 to walled garden they have total control they can entitle whoever they want to whatever information they want and they have that complete autonomy but then it connects to a fully decentralized high throughput chain and so I think that that's what you're seeing more adoption to Avalanche particularly over the last 6 months is that people are looking saying like the rules that are written on that one chain

don't precisely meet my needs and so what I'm going to do is I'm going to spin up my own chain now if you are a incredibly techn technically you know proficient company like Robin Hood who has just an army of software developers you'll build your own chain right you know if you're Google you're probably going to build your own chain but if software development and technology is not your core competency and you want to experience the benefit benefits of blockchain technology to make your business more competitive, but you can't just disclose all of that information onto a public blockchain. Avalanche is a pretty good out-of-the-box solution for that.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And so, a Avalanche is able to do this across again a a wide range of business segments. >> Ticketing, sporting, you know, trading, RWA is obviously, you know, I think I think they're up to like $1.6 billion in RWAs on chain for the Avalanche ecosystem. So by every metric, you know, in the second quarter, I think 235 million transactions uh on the avalanche uh chain, that's the seventh straight quarter of increases. So like by every metric, utilization across the ecosystem is is going up and to the right. Um and I and part of that is because of the flexibility of the chain that is that doesn't that doesn't have a similar feature for call it Salana or you know Ethereum >> and and it gives you as a treasury

company a lot of attack vectors. >> Correct. uh uh that in which you can provide value. Zooming out a little bit and just thinking about treasury companies in general. I mean digital asset treasury companies have kind of gotten a bad rap like as of the last you know call it 12 to 18 months you know primarily led not by yourself but you know by Michael Sailor and like you know people are kind of you know skeptical of maybe you know the the type of company that those treasury companies uh you know how they carry themselves. I I think what you've done with the Avalanche Treasury company is already a step in the right direction given that you're actually contributing to the underlying network and you mentioned kind of the ways in which you go about doing that. But I'm I'm curious how you think about treasury companies broadly

as someone who's inside like can you give us a little bit of inside baseball into what it means to be a treasury company and how a treasury company thinks about other treasury companies given all of the things and rhetoric that we see kind of floating around. So the concept of a treasury company has existed for you know decades right. So uh Google, Microsoft uh they all have treasuries within their corporate company. They have excess capital that they take in through revenue and then they use that capital in a way that's consistent with the the the the company's vision. And so in in these cases it's just in reverse, right? like you have the capital first and now we're looking to build businesses within there that are revenue accreative. Second

thing I would say is that it is just a label like an ETF structure where I spent most of my career as as grew out and there was when ETFs kind of hit mainstream in 2006 2007208 there was a lot of criticism from the asset management industry that they were bad uh for the industry that they were going to stifle small companies because everyone's going to index and that there was going to be some sort of catastrophic thing that happened that got too big and none of that was true. Uh but more importantly it is just an ETF is not good or bad. It is just a structure and really what you do with that is a determining whether it's good or bad. And so >> a a digital asset treasury company is not good or bad. It is a function of like what does who are the people leading it and what are they doing? And

so you had, you know, we've been through, you know, I've been in crypto for, you know, over 10 years and I've been through many of these cycles before and there's there's periods of exuberance where, you know, these things might trade at a premium and there's periods of fear and doubt and they're going to trade at a discount. And that is a feature, not a bug, right? It gives you the ability and we, you know, we announced last month that we're doing a a stock buyback. We're out in the market every day buying our shares back because we believe that they're trading below our intrinsic value. >> And you've got the cash on hand to do that. >> Yes. Absolutely. And so and and so there are going to be there's going to be a point in time where the industry as a whole catches a bid as they say and you

know in if this is not about avalanch treasury company just broadly digitalized to treasuries that in many cases people believe they're trading at a discount to their intrinsic value >> the grayscale trusts in you know 2021 22 23 24 during that time period they went through a very similar period a lot of people came in and they were like self-proclaimed value investors in the digital asset space uh and they found you know value in buying those companies rather than buying in the spot market. So like you know that is not a recommendation to purchase. Uh but it is it is a fact when you're looking at these things over a long period of time if you if you believe that market will come back and you believe in the you know the asset underlying this treasury company and you believe that it's trading at at a a discount to its

intrinsic value that's something that maybe people will take a look at. And so I think that that's that's an interesting part of the cycle that we're in right now. and and how should we measure intrinsic value because I I take it that you know net asset value is the easiest way to quantify that value but there's more to that so so you know from your perspective how should we be measuring intrinsic value I I take it it's NAV plus some other factors >> I think there's a there is a revenue component I mean so not for Bitcoin but for you know many of these other kind of L1s there's a staking component that they can look at so there's a revenue metric in there I think mostly what people are looking at is just where do I think the market is going and do I think

there's going to be a bid for crypto broadly. These assets will over time start to distinguish themselves from one another but in most cases there is a very high correlation between comparable L1s like the they're they're macro driven so you know we had a rate increase uh yesterday that was like widely expected market actually rallied into it. >> It's a bullish hike that I mean we didn't know this exist we didn't know bullish hikes existed. I I mean I think the idea that there's like any kind of like financial accountability in DC is like is like warms the heart of many people in crypto. I I don't know that many of us believe it'll last in the long run. But I think that I think overall that's I think people should look at the asset class and saying do I think it's going to be higher or lower

in 12 months and what is the best way for me to get exposure to that and what are the names that I'm going to look at and you know there are MNAV components and there are revenue components. I think all of those things are fair. I zooming out a little bit more broadly here. You mentioned macro. I've been nerd sniped on macro. I feel like I've gone full macro. They say never go full macro, but I feel like I've just invested so much time and effort into learning about this bond apocalypse that we have going here. And you know, as we kind of look at like what the Fed is doing with interest rates and what the Treasury is doing with buying back bonds, you know, I'm kind of between, you know, is this like a bull flattening or a bare flattening of the of the yield

curve? And generally thinking in terms of the outcome of what will outperform because for so long it it's been the it's been the hyperscalers it's been the AI equities. It's been a lot of focus on that side of the market and even before that we had kind of a a rally in commodities with gold and silver but that didn't really carry over into the rising tide that you're describing on digital assets. Do you feel like you know now there's AI slowdown rumors and talks. Do you think this is finally kind of the turning point in which we get, you know, the the flow rotation from equities into digital assets?

>> I mean, you know, if you go back 12 months ago, right, and you think about what the expectations were from macro at that point, we thought we were getting Kevin Hasset and the Clarity Act and we got Kevin Wars and a Warner ran, right? So instead of having a 1% interest rate going into the midterms which I think many people were expecting to happen last year we had a you know a 25 basis point rate hike and so you know everyone knows of of the available candidates Kevin was worst was probably the most you know hawkish historically. So I think given that macro backdrop right and and given the fact that >> growth capital is not infinite so AI infrastructure chips hardware you know the the the the anthropic and and chatbt expected IPOs like that's just soaking

up all the capital and so given that environment right like things actually aren't maybe as bleak as people thought it was and so with many of those things abading I think the world is like calibrating to a Kevin Walsh uh you know term in in at the Fed and so you know I'm not one for calling bottoms but like it feels a lot better than it felt 60 days ago. It it certainly does. And just to kind of bring this full circle, I think we we even started out I was kind of describing the portfolio allocation thesis that we have on the show that we talked about a lot starting to feel a little bit like a crowded trade because on one side it's that hard money that's benefiting from this more accommodative monetary policy. That hard money in terms of digital assets is like Bitcoin

and Zcash and maybe a little bit of gold. And then on the other hand, you've got like I mentioned this revenue meta, right? These onchain businesses with real fundamentals and AVAC being one of them. and and those are benefiting from what we call the legitimization of the industry. You know, President Trump is up there shaking hands with industry leaders. The CFTC has an innovation advisory committee like really legitimizing this thing that has before been the wild west. Now, there are a cohort, there is a cohort of companies that are benefiting from that legitimization. And these are kind of these are the two sides of the barbell, if you will. And so, I'm kind of looking at like which side is going to outperform the other. And and that's kind of my last question to you is like do you believe in this barbell? Do you

think it's maybe a little bit overcrowded? If not, which side of the barbell do you think is going to outperform? >> I mean, I think ultimately, right, we we saw the SEC coming out this morning, you know, effectively greenlighting uh for better or worse, the the concept of, you know, 24 something. So maybe it's 235, maybe 245, but I think everyone understands that we're going to 24/7 everything. Yeah. >> Uh and and so and then you have exist existing incumbents like New York Stock Exchange, CME, NASDAQ, brokerages and banks like the Merrills and the Morgans and and then on the other side you have the Coinbases and the Robin Hoods and you have prediction markets and like everything is kind of coalesing to

what's going to be a you know a 24/7 world for everything >> that is going to run on blockchains. Like it the the current infrastructure is it is just not built for it. And so I think if most people actually saw coming from my trading background like how clunky equity trading was and how many mistakes are made because of the antiquated nature of how the the the ecosystem is connected that they would be begging for this new technology. So I think ultimately if CME doesn't do it NY or NASDAQ will and they and and but they're going to have to contend with Kraken and Coinbase. So, I think there's going to be like the incumbents and there's going to be kind of like the the the crypton native and they're all fighting to meet in the

middle. Yeah. >> Um, and so I I I think that we're past the point where people can the protectionists can try to like hold this off like the horse is out of the barn. And so I think the next I think the next 12 months is going to be can the incumbents from from within innovate historically really really difficult. you know there's a obviously a famous book called the innovator's dilemma that talks about this very this very problem and said or is it the you know is it the native right that that comes up the Robin Hoods of the world I don't have a strong opinion I think historically it's easier to be the the uh the upstart than the incumbent but they're fighting >> they're going to they're going to go down swinging so I think it's all good I guess my parting comment would be this

is all good for Avalanche right like they they when they when these companies look >> at you know a general purpose chain and they look at, you know, the avalanche ability to spin up an L1 and how easy and practical it is. Like I think ultimately the fact that these rules are now written by the SEC and the CFTC, we didn't get Clarity Act. It's an emotional loss. It wasn't really a business loss. And I think now the horse is out of the barn and and I think the next 12 months is going to be fascinating and I think Avalanche is going to be a big winner. >> Incredible. Bart Smith, uh, CEO Avalanche Treasury Company, tickers AVAT on the NASDAQ. Appreciate you coming on, spending some time with us.

>> Thanks for having Absolutely. >> Good luck to you. >> Yeah, you too. >> Alrighty, guys. That was Bart Smith, uh, the Avalanche Treasury Company CEO, and we are going to have our next guest. Our next guest was a late edition, as I understand, wasn't on the original schedule, but I uh I recognize David. I think we did have a conversation before, maybe just on the show one time. And so, we're going to have David Sutter. Here he is. He is the CEO co-founder of Open Trade. David, welcome to the show. >> Good to see you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for bringing me in late.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the first time we're having you on in person. I think last time we had you on was a few months ago. Maybe you could just remind our audience about Open Trade and catch us up on what's been going on the last few months. >> Open Trade is a infrastructure provider focused on stable coin yield. Uh we work with fintexs around the world, neo banks, exchanges, payment services providers to help them earn yield and pay yield. earn yield or a treasury management solution for them. Pay yield, they can embed our products to offer their users safe, predictable returns on stable coins at rest. >> Yeah.

>> Last few months uh up into the right uh we've tripled the size of the business in the last 6 months. Uh we've onboarded uh great new partners around the world um some of the leading fintexs in Latin America. >> Uh we closed the $17 million series A. >> Congratulations. >> Uh we doubled the size of our team. So everything's up and to the right. >> Up and to the right. I absolutely love it. Projecting over $1 billion in transaction volume this year. And so >> I've got this thesis that I want to run by you and I want to get your thoughts on. Tell me. I am realizing that I think Scott Besson is making stable coins a national priority for the United States because they are twisting the duration out of the Treasury market.

Yes. >> And they are forcing a structural bid on short-term US treasuries. Absolutely. And stable coins are backed by short-term US treasuries, especially the genius compatible stable coins. And as I understand it, a dollar deposited, a fiat dollar deposited into a fiat depository institution like a bank generates a structural bid at around maybe 5 to 15 cents for short-term US treasuries. Whereas a dollar backing a US dollar stable coin generates 80 to 95 cents on the dollar structurally for US treasuries. And so it is an order of magnitude more beneficial for Scott Bsant and the Treasury of the US to have a stable coin economy rather than a fiat

dollar economy. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Look, there's a there's a tactical and a strategic angle to why the current administration and many of us view view stable coins not only as a technological enabler but a uh a national defense priority right cementing long-term demand for US dollars around the world uh is if you look at the history of the United States being the world's reserve currency has given us tremendous soft power and hard power right so stable coins on a strategic sense cement long-term demand for US dollars and holders of US dollars. Tactically, they generate a huge amount of demand for US Treasury securities on the short end of the curve. >> Um, and when we see, you know, what's

going on in the Treasury markets here with the 10-year uh exceeding 5%, the Treasury having to step in and actually repurchase Treasury security, something that historically they do very rarely. And then enter stable coins which is $300 billion of US Treasury security demand. People projecting that to go to three trillion over the next 5 10 years. Stable coins will issuers can are and will continue to be one of the biggest consumers of US Treasury securities globally. So I think it's I I think that's absolutely right and I think it to your point reinforces the United States geopolitical position around the world. Yes. >> And so you're absolutely right. This is a national defense and a national economic priority.

>> Correct. >> And and so how do you think this this bond and this macro market is going to proceed? Do you think that they're going to just continue to slam buybacks? I mean, give us your just macro thesis. >> Yeah. >> As it persists over the next few months and and we'll get into how open trade plays a role in this national economic and defense priority, >> I think. Well, look, first and foremost, 6 months ago, well, not even 6 months ago. In June, if you looked at the Fed's dot plot, zero projections of a rate hike. It's September 17th, we got 25 basis point hike yesterday, and the dot plot is pretty much guaranteeing another one. So, all that to say is this stuff changes quickly. >> Yeah.

>> However, I think the primary driver of the macro outlook over the next few years is actually going to be what we see happen in Washington. the narrative that's evolving around AI safety and regulation and potentially the dampening impacts that has on the AI hype cycle and spend and all the very I mean 30 huge percentage of our GDP last year was AI and a AI related spend. Anything that slows that down is going to be one of the primary drivers of our financial markets and everything else that comes from that. our bond markets. I mean, the cost of money, it so that for me, what I'm watching my my nar I'm generally bullish and optimistic, but anything that comes out of Washington that slows

down the AI hype cycle could be pretty difficult for everyone. Do you think the do you think the potential slowdown in AI is going to accelerate or decelerate the adoption of stable coins? I think that there's I'm not sure. Okay, so there's a few different factors. I think when people flee to safety, they flee to US dollars. So actually, perversely, any sort of mass e economic slowdown or recession is actually going to uh increase demand for US dollars and stability globally. And that's going to the way that's working in emerging markets is US dollar demand now drives

stable coin demand because that's the primary means by which individuals and businesses in emerging markets hold and save in dollars now is with stable coins. >> I I would I Yes. And tokenized assets. >> Yes. Tokenized assets. >> So adoption of dollars on chain, right? And and a lot of these tokenized assets, tokenized equities, repo markets, foreign exchange, all of these things are driving this tokenization super cycle. And those tokenized US dollars are what backs a lot of that. And it's also the denomination. And and it's funny to think that, you know, a a digital US dollar is a different denomination than a fiat US dollar, but it really is because it, you know, doing these things on chain requires a different denomination of the dollar in order to facilitate facilitate these

this type of economic activity. And so the the wave of tokenized assets is also driving adoption of stable coins. And so as we see more tokenized assets and more demand for digital dollars, I think that will absolutely drive stable coin adoption. Does the slowdown in AI help the stable coins? I don't know. >> It so it can help drive demand for US dollars and that will be channeled into demand for US dollar stable coins. >> But the slowdown could cut both ways. >> Yeah, >> I think it will hurt that slowdown will hurt the funding markets. So, venture capital, private equity, the investors that are bankrolling all of these great innovations that we're here talking about at Avalanche, the startups, the scaleups, the incumbents, they're

raising money from venture capital and private equity. And they've all placed huge bets on AI. And so, anything that impairs those bets, >> I think you could expect to see a slowdown in the funding environment, which typically means less innovation. So companies like mine, other companies here that are building these tokenized RWAs, tokenized uh real world assets uh for a better lack of a better term as well as sort of driving innovation in the stable coin economy. >> Um that could be tough for all of us if that happens. >> And and so you are driving a lot of that, you know, innovation in the stable coin economy, helping banks and businesses and neo banks and fintech all build this out, right? And and so just how do you react right when your cost of capital because they've increased rates?

>> Yeah. >> You know, h how does your cost of capital react to that? Because ultimately, you know, you're taking in capital at a certain cost and then you're going to go and you're going to, you know, perform some actions with that capital and then generate some yield and pass that back to your stakeholders. And so, you know, when your when your cost of capital increases, how does that affect your bottom line? How does your business adapt to an increase in the cost of capital? >> Well, for us, we're entirely equity funded. So we we don't have a direct impact on raising rates. If anything, a rate a >> a hiking rate environment helps us because we focus primarily on fixed income products. And so we're able to provide higher yields to our end users.

And that I mean when they make the calculus between risk assets like buying stocks versus, you know, investing in a savings product, which is really where we focus, >> it increases the attractiveness of those products because rates are going up. >> Yeah. Um, but with that said, a vast majority of the economy is not equity only funded. >> Yeah. >> And so small businesses all the way up to large AI enterprises who are issuing hundreds of billions of dollars of bonds, right? They they start to get really impacted by changes in interest rates. And so it's hard to say how all those factors like which way they'll lean, whether they're net positive or net net negative, but they they will they will move things. Yeah, absolutely. And so just kind of putting a ribbon on this. I mean, you know, you projected a billion dollars by the end of the year

in volume. You're at $200 million in TVL. How do we get this thing to 2 billion in TVL and 10 billion in volume? >> They just need to raise rates again or we're going to hit a billion easily. I think we're at 750 now. We still have plenty of time left in the year. We're at 350 million in TVL. So, we've grown 150 million. >> My numbers are stale in the last hour. We've uh we've generated increases substantially. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um look for us um the path from 300 to 3 billion is clear. Um we need to continue to build as we've done in the past market leading yield products and distribute those through the world's best fintech partners neo banks exchanges and we directly benefit from the increased continuing increase in demand for saving dollars earning in dollars that we're

seeing. So, uh, nothing to change. Just stay on the same path that we're on and, uh, see you in a year and we'll be at 3 billion hopefully. >> Keep on, keeping on, Dave, absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a great day. >> We'll see you again soon. >> Yep. >> All right, guys. Like we said, Avac Summit day two. We're on the home stretch. That was David Sutter, CEO and co-founder of Open Trade, building stable coin infrastructure. It's a national economic and defense priority. Guys, we're going to qu take a quick quick standby. and we're going to get right back into it. We've got our final two or three guests live in the flesh.

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How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. Heat. Heat.

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We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know, we get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. know we get deep. We get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get >> yo yo yo what's going on guys this is it with the rollup we're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most are people trading what are people investing in how much do people actually budget going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead

broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. And we are back. Avac Summit day two homestretch final hour. We've got Ryan Wen from Plume. He's the man. And uh we're not too far from the tokenization tower. I think if you stand on the roof of this place and you look up a little

bit, you can see the 77th floor. >> Not too far. Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, man. Thanks for being here, man. just your reactions. You know, this has been a a pretty legendary lineup. Legendary lineup inside of AVAC Summit this week, but then also just New York is buzzing with energy this week. Uh obviously, you know, you're in the office uh with a lot of our team day in and day out. And so, you know, you you understand what it means to be here in the mix. just your reaction of of all the people coming in New York this week, what you've seen from the slate of conferences and what you've seen specifically from AVAC Summit. >> Yeah, I mean it it's been said before, but I think what stands out the most is just the number of suits here.

>> You know, I I've been going to conferences since 2022 23. The idea of wearing a suit is was just unheard of. Yeah. You've got politicians, you've got uh financial institutions, asset issuers, uh LPs, uh and so it's just the the legitimacy is in the air and it's great to see. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so let's talk about what you guys are doing with AVAC specifically. Um obviously you've got N Opal, you've got Factor, we'll get into those, but why are you here at AVAC Summit? What what is special about Avalanche? >> Yeah, Avalanche has done a lot to build out their ecosystem, you know, specifically with RWA. They're doing all kinds of great stuff, but you know, RWAS is where where we play in. Yeah. And seeing a chain and an ecosystem invest so heavily in getting that kind of institutional legitimacy, leaning into the compliance side of things, uh that's

certainly an ecosystem we want to plant our flag behind. And so we we'd love to do more with AAX going forward. >> Incredible. And so as you've been kind of circulating amongst the people here, you mentioned there's a lot of suits. Does that necessarily come with more institutional capital or weight? I mean, it's definitely less of a degenerate vibe, but what does it mean really when it comes to capital formation? >> Yeah. So, I do want to uh draw a distinction here. There's a lot of institutional presence, but we draw a distinction between institutional asset issuers and institutional capital. And so, the issuers are the people who have a product that they want to bring on chain, distribute to, you know, to other onchain uh sources. And then there's the actual institutional capital allocators. And so Apollo is both an investment firm

in one sense. You know, they allocate capital. That's not quite, you know, the why they're here just yet. They're here as as issuers bringing the products on chain. Now, when you get the actual TradFy uh allocators, that's the actual capital. This could be family offices. This could be, you know, the the Black Rockck, you know, flagship private equity fund. Once they show up and start actually allocating capital to onchain products, that's that I think is the next stage. But for now, it's mostly institutional asset issuers. I think this is a great take because I think what you're saying is that you know look an observation is that we have seen these digital asset teams rather small teams inside of larger very monumental organizations that move a ton of capital like we're talking you know JP Morgan I think has something

like 300,000 employees >> their digital assets team is probably 30 20 to 30 >> small but mighty >> small but mighty indeed and So what you're saying is that right now those small but mighty teams are tokenizing or developing solutions based on existing products and they're they're transforming a very very small slice of the existing financial institutions capital stack. But I think the more important opportunity to realize is that there is an entire capital stack at at the ready once this thing becomes available.

Right. That's right. >> And and so that is ultimately what we're seeing get developed. And this is across all these financial institutions. You mentioned Black Rockck, right? Apollo, right? Wisdom Tree we had on earlier. Like there's several like there's several of these teams. You guys are also doing this. And so maybe you can just help us understand, right? like the moment in time where we are right now because it is still somewhat of a technological development and how this ultimately goes into a capital development. >> Yeah, it's both tech and compliance, right? So all these digital assets teams, they're moving mountains uh setting up tokenized share classes, setting up foreign feeder funds, you know, finding ways to make it compliant to bring the assets on chain. The next frontier is going to be to get these assets plugged into someone's uh wealth

management platform, someone's 401k, and actually distributing it to those capital sources, right? These asset managers have trillions of assets under management. How do you plug the products into that capital and actually getting the Trafy capital uh to participate in this? And I and I think that that's the next next uh frontier here. >> Very cool. And so when you're thinking about the vault complex right now, I mean, there's been, you know, lots of regulatory developments even just over the last 24 hours, how does this apply to vaults? Both the SEC tokenization exemption and also some of the news coming out of the CFTC feels like they are just very ambitious and aggressive to put these rules out there, especially in the absence of clarity.

How does Plume and the vault complex at large react to some of the things that we're seeing out of these regulatory bodies? Yeah, I mean it it's it's great news and it feels a little weird to say, but for us it's it's business as usual, right? The the institutions are hoping for regulatory clarity or or compliance and that can come in one of two ways. It can come top down from something like clarity uh from the tokenization exemption, but the regulators are only going to move as as fast as they move and so you can't just wait around you hoping that it comes one day. And so in the meantime, uh, the vault, you know, the builders, the infrastructure players like us, there's ways to do it bottoms up, you know, such as finding ways to distribute these products offshore, uh, to foreign investors and and finding compliant ways to bring in the

institutional players in a way that they feel good about it. >> Yeah. Incredible. And so, you know, like you said, you guys have not just waited around, you know, and and waited for regulatory clarity. know you guys have gone and done what you're able to do right now so that you're in a position where it is ready for scale and you've already established that resiliency and so let's talk about some of the products right cuz we've got factor this was launched somewhat recently and so maybe the audience is a little bit less familiar with it tell us a little bit about factor and some of the implications of it >> yeah so factor uh we just launched last week it's one of our newest flagship products we're we're very excited about it uh we've partnered with a New York City based credit fund called Deep Ocean

Partners here. Uh we're we're sourcing and structuring this product in partnership with them. I think the biggest difference is uh in RWA today most of the products are actual funds that you on board. It could be the Apollo credit fund, it could be the Black Rockck uh money market fund. In this case, there is no actual issuer in between. We're working directly with uh Deep Ocean partners and kind of underwriting specific uh credit facilities that that they've uh underwritten. And so when someone buys into factor, they're they're directly lending into these facilities without an issuer in between. And so it brings uh investors into this tokenized product much closer to the actual source of uh structuring.

>> Yeah. And so as I understand it, factor this new flagship product is a tokenized book of invoice factoring. Y >> right. And so this is you know generating some yield and uh you know everyone is able to deposit into this product in order to you know claim some of that yield. What is invoice factoring? Maybe you can just zoom out, look at the asset class, right? >> Give us a little bit of a lesson here. Like what is invoice factoring 101? >> Yeah. So, invoice factoring kind of in short is is the the idea that you can lend money to someone by buying their receivables. And so, if you're if you're a factory that makes widgets and you're selling them to uh, you know, Amazon, Nvidia, you know, whatever it is, they may not pay you for 60 to 90 days. But let's say you got a big order in from Microsoft that wants even more widgets.

You can't wait 90 days for Amazon to pay you. And so what they do is they can sell these receivables to uh factors or people who do invoice factoring to kind of advance that cash. And so this isn't exactly how it works, but the idea is if you have a $1,000 invoice, you don't want to wait 90 days uh for Amazon to pay you back. Uh you can sell it to someone for $998, you know, whatever it may be. And that gives you the money to go build more widgets. uh go go grow go grow your business uh and so on. And so the way you're able to generate such high yield is not by taking on more credit risk the way you know sovereign bonds might be. But it's by cycling that capital efficiently. So if you can buy an invoice, advance the money, collect on

it in 30 days, cycle that 12 times a year, you can actually generate extremely high yields without taking on any credit risk. >> What what is the yield that uh that factor is putting out there right now? Yeah. So, Factor uh has has a target yield of 14% APY, which is, you know, best-in-class. >> Yeah. That's incredible. And so, uh how does that compare to some of the other products in the uh in the Plume stack, right? O and Opal has been crushing as well. I mean, that's another flagship product. Again, Brazilian credit card receivables fund, which is very similar. I mean, you're essentially, you know, you're you're fronting the the the capital, you know, into this into this industry segment and then, you know, they're going to pay some yield on top of that. And so how does how does factor compare to NOP? >> Yeah, it's uh it's it's similar in many

regards. NOP has a target yield of 12%. Uh you know, that one is Brazilian credit card receivables. And so it's more consumer oriented. Uh it's less kind of B2B factoring. And so, you know, the Black Opal team is phenomenal. They they just crossed $100 million in that vault today. Uh huge milestone. Shout out to the Black Opal team. And you know, that one works in a similar way. They work with uh uh fintech originators in Brazil. they they buy these batches of consumer receivables uh also at a discount. These are much shorter data typically 30 to 45 days uh to maturity and so you buy a book of receivables uh you know for some spread you collect on it in 30 to 45 days you recycle it into another book uh and that's how the yield is generated. What have you found has been harder? The supply side of like, you know, going

out there and and sourcing credit card receivables in Brazil or the demand side for the capital like, you know, going out and getting the money to to go and front to these, you know, credit card receivables. >> Yeah, distribution is always going to be the hardest thing. Okay. Uh there's there's plenty of assets out there uh a lot of products and you know we we're in the tokenization business but we came to the realization early on that not every every asset needs to be tokenized or you know it can be but there's not going to be capital waiting on the other side for it. And so at Bloom we kind of focus on choosing our bets picking highquality assets uh ideally something differentiated that the rest of the market doesn't have uh and really focusing our efforts on distributing those.

>> Fantastic. you know, a as we kind of, you know, zoom out here a little bit. You know, we also talked about how a lot of these digital asset teams are somewhat nent inside of these institutions, but it feels as if not only, you know, their entire organization can be unlocked, but also their entire capital stack. You've got some great partners, right? I I know you guys work closely with Apollo, right? And some others. Maybe you can just give us a word on, you know, what it means to work with some great partners. Give us maybe like a case study or two about working with Apollo that, you know, everyone can kind of understand and look through the lens of one of these partnerships. >> Yeah. Um I'll I'll give one on Wisdom Tree just because that, you know, they were on the show earlier and we it's

very recent, but Wisdom Tree has been a great partner with us. I think they're a very forwardlooking uh asset issuer. They have their uh digital connect program. Uh they're running ads on TikTok. I I see them like almost every day. And so they've really been leaning into this this frontier of digital assets. And so they've been open to working with us not only to structure good products that we can bring on chain but also in novel use cases. And so I saw the partnership with Moon today. Yeah. >> Uh with I think it was WTGX. Yeah. >> Uh and so prior to that we we had a similar uh partnership with Wisdomree and Toku which is a payroll provider. Uh and so that that one was one where employees who were paid through toku could actually uh allocate some of their payroll, you know, similar to how people

allocate it to 401ks uh but directly into these tokenized money market funds. And so it's great to have a partner in wisdomry like that uh not only just to talk products but also to talk uh different use cases. >> Fantastic. Well, Ryan, I'm going to see you very soon in the uh in the tokenization tower. Yeah, absolutely. It's been a fantastic partnership between Plume and the Rollup and so we are very very grateful uh for your team and uh kudos and congratulations on all the great work that you guys have done so far. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks so much. >> Good seeing you. >> All right guys, we're going to get our next guest up. That was Ryan Wen. He is the so COO at Plume. Incredible Twitter handle as well. Give him a follow. Guy crushes it. Big big fan of Plume. We're gonna bring up our next guest. I'm

having a Coke. We're in our last uh we're in our last uh rendition here. Guys, you tell me who else was calling for a bullish hike besides the rollup. Anyone? Was anyone calling for a bullish hike? Uh let's get uh our next headline going. We are live rolling. We're going to bring up our next guest >> in just a minute. It's the home stretch here, the home stretch here at the AVAC Summit.

We're going to we're going to get going here with our next guest in just a moment. We're getting him set up behind the scenes and uh we're going to keep things uh keep things going here. the home stretch here at the AVAC Summit >> and uh we are going to finish very very strong. We're going to flip the headline and uh make sure that we bring up not our last guest, our second to last guest. You know, they say last but not least, same applies here, certainly not least. And uh we're going to we're going to finish strong here at the AVAC Summit day two. We're going to bring up Gerald, CEO at the Link Network. And uh Link has been onboarding institutional clients

since the launch, settling in shares of the Arca Institutional US Treasury Fund. And so we are getting him set up behind the scenes. He is patiently awaiting to my left. All we've got to do is flip the headline on the program output and uh and Gerald is coming in hot. I'm telling you, he's coming in hot. He's so ready. He's been patient. He's had two days two days getting ready at the AVAC Summit. I've heard Blink multiple times here at uh at the AVAC Summit Day 2. Everyone's excited about what they're doing and uh we really appreciate his patience

behind the scenes as our team has had a long couple of days. Guys, just to give you a recap of what the rollup has accomplished this week, Hunter Biden launched a memecoin on Monday and he came on our show to talk about it. So, that was an incredible start to the week. Then we had the Clarity Act vote. We went live with the Clarity Act. unfortunately didn't reach uh Cloer, but you know what? We got some incredible SEC and CFDC rules uh on the heels of that. And so uh and so then it was Wednesday and we were live at both the AVAC Summit day one and Arc Circle mainet which was incredible. We had the uh the CEO of Circle, publicly traded company. Uh the

founder of USDC, Jeremy Aair on the show. Incredible day. It was fantastic. From there, we came to Avac Summit Day 2 and we had Kevin Oolir on the show this morning. So, incredible lineup. And guys, all of this has been a buildup for our friend Gerald David, the CEO of Link. And uh as soon as we hit the headline, I mean, this must be the most phenomenal headline we've ever had on the show because what an absolute buildup. All right, there he is. Gerald on Institutional Settlement. Gerald, CEO at Link Network. Gerald, welcome to the show.

>> Robbie, thanks for having me. My headline, Hunter Biden, Jeremy Oair, Mr. Wonderful, and Gerald David. There we go. Now we're talking. >> That That is the lineup here. I mean, one of my favorite intro intros that we've done all week and uh and uh truly a pleasure to sit down with you. It's your it's your first time on the show, I believe. >> First time on the show. >> And so, we're very very excited. Like I said, Link has been onboarding institutional clients since launch, settling in shares of the ARCA Institutional US Treasury Fund issued on Avalanche with yield in transit, acrewing interest in 5-second intervals. Lots of partners. We'll get into it. First, Gerald, how you feeling, man?

It's the home stretch. Avac Summit day two. What has your experience been like over the last couple of days? >> I'm feeling great. I'm feeling a lot better than you are right now. >> I'm feeling good, man. I got I got no I got no complaints. I got I got no complaints now. Now we're all set. It's uh it's a we're running smooth now. Everything is according to plan. >> So, it's it's been a good good conference. >> It's been great. I um I was traveling yesterday. I was actually at European Blockchain Convention in Barcelona. Got here this morning. I live in Chelsea, so walking here was pretty freaking cool, right? So, this is my neighborhood. and seeing the presence Avalanche has here is awesome and it's great to be able to support them. They are amazing partners to us. Um we've done a lot of work

developing with them in two different uh ways on our platform both in Cchain uh as well as our own private L1 and it's amazing to be here and it's amazing to be able to support that. >> Yeah. And you know we've heard a lot about the wide range of use cases on the Cchain and the L1's. I mean, we we've had, you know, conversations around FIFA and Hyundai, but also Kevin Olirri was wearing a tokenized one of one show Otani card around his neck. So, very wide aperture here as far as what happens on AVAC. You've described Link as the cash and collateral rail behind institutional crypto. Why is it important to launch that rail on Avalanche?

>> Yeah, it's first of all, it's a key piece of infrastructure in the industry. So, let's start with that. So, I think the fact that we've actually been able to launch that, put together the consortium that we've done, um, and then actually launches on Avalanche, I think is amazing. Avalanche for us has been a a tremendous partner, right? There are a couple different elements that were super important for us. Having our own L1, being able to have our own validators, being able to go ahead and control our own cost and fees on the platform has been amazing. But for us, the interoperability between both Cchain and um you know, our own L1 is important because we are issuing shares of the fund on uh the public blockchain and that's critically important as you can imagine, Robbie. Transparency is number one for us obviously, but then giving

comfort to the marketplace. There's nothing, you know, silly going on in the background is the other part of it. >> Yeah. And and I think that's absolutely right to bring up that this is happening on a public blockchain because you know we've seen sort sort of these institutional think tanks and experiments that happen internally right and and those are permissioned and those are closed wall gardens but a public blockchain is fundamentally different because it gives you the benefit of composability and I think that is the real level up and value unlock that happens once we have the onchain economy at large and so once you have that composability and you have the cash and collateral leg. I mean there is massive total addressable market here. And so how important is that composability both on Avalanche? What do you plan on connecting to on Avalanche and beyond to ultimately facilitate with cash and

collateral? >> Yeah, 100%. Um you know I I think that the composability and the interoperability between both cash and tokenized money market funds is a very very important element here. Right. So when you think about what's going on the conversation between public versus private, it's been going on since like 2018, right? This is not a new discussion. I think we're now in a new phase whereby people are accepting the fact that there will be public blockchains and there will be private blockchains, right? The privacy considerations are too great right now uh in order to get broadspread adoption from traditional financial uh institutions. So having the marriage and the private and the public is super important for us. Now with reference to what we're doing on the uh on our own L1 um we're transferring shares of this fund back and forth between users, right? So, think about somebody like um a P2C2 or a Wintermute or a Galaxy or a

Falconet or Crypto.com where all of our launch partners and are on our cap table are the ones that are actually taking these shares and moving them back and forth and they're using that for things like settlement. They're using it for things like off exchange collateral and a bunch of other use cases that involve trady as well. >> Yeah. Incredible. And so as we think about, you know, starting with moving shares back and forth on this L1, you know, there is a significant scale around kind of the the depth and breadth of assets that are possible. And so talk to us about where you see this going, this this, you know, share movement back and forth is kind of, you know, the beginning. Tell us about kind of the middle and the end game for how you see this progressing. >> Absolutely. So when we built the

platform we were we we we spent a lot of time trying to build out three different core functions right um the first was multi-broker dealer the second of which was multiasset and the third of which is multicurrency now the multi- um uh the multiasset component here is the most important okay >> so I think about multiasset I'm thinking about other things outside of the arc of fund that is on the platform that we ultimately can have there think about a world whereby you could have a 40 act fund that would be for maybe one of the largest asset managers in the world that could act as a reserve asset for stable token isuances that could happen on our platform. >> Yeah, >> think about the ability for a client to have a portfolio of product, tokenized gold, tokenized oil that they can move on our platform as a partial investment in order for them to go ahead and

obiscate idle capital, right, and have another investment. >> Yeah. And so earlier today, and we've talked at length about this, but I think it's extremely relevant, this SEC proposal for a tokenization exemption, right? This came out earlier today and it essentially said that the the venues the the tokenized security venues do not need to register as a broker dealer. It sounds like this whether it does now or not, you know, it could extend to a venue where it could be transferring securities back and forth. How do you see this exemption playing in? How much does that accelerate the timeline to go multiasset? Yeah. So, um, as I said, I was on a flight last night, got here first thing this morning, and haven't even contacted Claude yet to go ahead and get my download on what what the real headlines are. What I do know right

now is that this is very good for digital assets, right? Um, I know it opens up the door for native and incumbent exchanges right now to go ahead and have trading pairs of native digital assets. Um, it's going to allow for tokenization of equities um, both in digital twin and otherwise. That's going to be super helpful for us and give clarity for that. Um, you know, I think it's going to open up the door for incumbent exchanges in the space to begin to broaden the breadth of their offerings and appeal to not just folks that are looking for digital assets or crypto, but now having a digitized version of something that they would go to NASDAQ or to NY or have to go to an Asian exchange, perhaps even get in a tokenized form.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, when we think about what is possible across assets because ultimately a lot of these adhere to token standards, some of them are more permissioned than others, but ultimately these things are all composable with one another. And so, as we think about the tokens that are moving across these chains, right, represent a variety of different asset classes. The use cases of these, right? Ultimately, the programmable nature of tokens on a chain make these things productive and programmable and that removes intermediaries because we can do things just in time. We can do things atomically and we can do things programmatically. And so one of the the concepts that you guys have coined is called yield and transit. And a lot of what we hear about is is massive amounts

of idle capital. I I heard a lot about this in terms of the repo market. I mean $13 trillion every single day that banks are lending one another overnight because they don't have the facilities to do this overnight. And so now that this is becoming 24/7 and becoming programmable and programmatic, what does yield and transit mean and how does it help unlock and make productive idle capital? >> Oh, was it Rob? I was describing yesterday yield and transit to somebody and they said to me it's realtime repo. >> I was like interesting, right? Like I had heard it before. Um conceptually it makes a lot of sense. The patent that we have is pretty amazing, right? It allows us to run an algorithm and it allows us to take interest that's accured throughout a day and distribute it proportionally to the shareholders.

>> So think about holding shares of the fund for 24 hours. Obviously we're seeing 100% of the interest that was derived from that portion those shares of the fund. But think about if you're a market maker, think about if you're a winner or Galaxy or Falcon and you're sending, you know, transactions back and forth constantly to settle with other counterparties you may have. Imagine how cool it would be to be able to go ahead and recognize the interest that's generated up until the two second block when you hit when you hit transfer and send and then ultimately now the beneficial owner begins to pick up that interest and that interest then the use cases are plentiful outside of digital assets. This is something that is going to upend the way that that traditional finance looks at dividend and interest distribution. Okay, that is an absolutely incredible and I, you know, you already are starting to open my mind

and my imagination to some of these additional use cases. You know, you mentioned real-time repo, which I think is a huge, like we said, $13 trillion every single day. We had someone on here earlier talking about SEC lending, right? lending out these securities feels like this is just so possible now not only because of the onchain component but also because of the tokenization exemption which you know we won't get into the nitty-gritty but as I understand means that these venues don't need to register as broker dealers and so when you're thinking about yield in transit it sounds as if this could also apply to securities with the benefit of tokenization we can fractionalize shares Right. So you can kind of start to see a

picture that looks like realtime dividends, right? And and I'd have taken that securities do this on different schedules and whatnot, right? Maybe every month, every quarter, whatnot, but I can see a future where we're we're distributing dividends to security holders every single block. 100%. And when you think about the way that securities operate in their current form, right, the trans and you said it a second ago, time and and transfer, right? These are the two elements right now that need to be fixed. So when you think about things like dividend distribution, you know, why wouldn't they be why wouldn't they be real time? Why wouldn't it be associated with a digital version of an equity that's out there right now and it would be a right that's stapled to it that you have a smart contract that would govern it and then ultimately if you an if then scenario if you held this share at this

time then you ultimately are going to be the beneficiary of that of that that dividend or whatever it might be. I mean that is the world that we're moving toward for sure. >> Absolutely. And so what is next for link? You know, you guys have launched this on Avalanche. You know, incredible case studies with this initial transfers. You know, you mentioned some some fantastic launch partners, many of which have been on the show. Just give us sort of your road map 3 to 6 months as the tokenization super cycle continues. How will Link start to absorb some of those tranches of tokenized assets? >> Yeah. So, I mean, I think that there's a couple places we're focusing. The first is in derivative derivatives right now, right? derivatives margin and derivatives clearing involving FCMs and clearing houses is is a place that is ripe for disruption. Um, and I say that

only because you've got exchanges that are out there right now that are talking about going 24/7 and there's no real ability for a client to go ahead and send capital to their FCM in order for them to go ahead and effectuate, you know, initial margin or variation margin over a weekend or over an evening. So, think about a scenario whereby if you're a major oil company and you want to go ahead and hedge on 24/7 market that you've got to pre-colateralize a futures position to the tune of 50 or $100 million on a Friday afternoon. Um, it's a problem that we have in the crypto space right now as you know this pre-colateralization issue. It's something that the traditional market has. It's something that digital assets and blockchain technology will be able to solve and I believe there's a role that we'll play in that as well.

>> Incredible Jar Gerald really appreciate this conversation. and I think it helps open our mind to think about some of the use cases that are possible and uh you're playing a significant role. So, thank you so much. Really appreciate it and would love to have you on again soon. >> I can't wait to be back. You got one more and then you're done, man. >> Absolutely. >> Thanks for having me. >> Yeah. Thanks. I'm going to take a quick pick. >> The Polaroid strikes again. All right, guys. We're on the home stretch. We'll see you again soon. Thanks, Gerald. Guys, we're going to hit a quick quick standby. We may or may not be back with our final guest of Avalanche Summit day two and uh it's been a hell of a week.

Zcash is on an elevator up. Guys, don't go anywhere. Stick around. Quick standby. See you guys soon. We get we get know we get we get we get deep know we get deep.

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get deep. We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep.

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How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. Hey, hey hey.

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We get we get deep know we get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get deep we We get you know we get we get we get deep we get

You know we get deep. We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. Wow. Clap it up. Give me big sounds. Big sounds. Air horns all across the board,

guys. Are we classing clapping up the conclusion of an absolutely monumental, gargantuan week for the rollup, or are we clapping up Zcash at $1,500 for one Zcash? Guys, have we not been absolutely slamming it for the last 3 months? Just absolutely putting everything that we possibly had into not only this ecosystem, but also this market and our team. Have we not absolutely been slamming it across the board? I mean, guys, we couldn't do it without each and every one of you. each and every one of you watching behind the scenes, each and every one of our guests that come up here and they give us their knowledge and their experience and their journey that they've had all through the

years up until this point where they came on the roll up. And I'm talking about Hunter Biden. I'm talking about all the crack that guy smoked. I'm talking about all the degenerate activities that he's gone through in his lifetime to ultimately get onto the rollup. I'm talking about Kevin Olirri and Mr. wonderful and all the deals that he has executed over the years to get to this point on the roll up to share them with you with us and with you. We are together in this absolutely cooking absolutely cooking. I am just so fired up about where we are in the market right now, where this industry is, where the regulatory bodies are. We couldn't do it without each and everyone of the regulatory bodies and the politicians and everyone at this conference. We

couldn't do it. It's a team effort. We are not alone in this. Finally, all of us are on the same team. All of us except for Senator Elizabeth Warren and Senator Bernie Sanders. All of us are in this together. We are absolutely excited. We are absolutely having fun again. I mean, we had the most incredible week in rollup history. Calling it a big week is not calling it big enough. This was absolutely monumental, gargantuan. Zcash is at 1500. Bitcoin looks ready to explode to the upside. We had a bullish rate hike.

We had the lack of closure on the Clarity Act. We had Hunter Biden on the show. We had Kevin Olirri on the show. We had Jeremy Aair on the show. We had John Nahas on the show. And we had all of your favorite industry experts on the show. And this marks the beginning. This marks the beginning of the next chapter in rollup history. Okay. The rollup has fulfilled its mission, its first mission of becoming a shelling point of intelligence in fintech and digital assets. This embarks a new chapter. It embarks not only a two-month sprint, a two-month tour of the conference circuit as it pertains to digital assets all over the world. here in New York, in Miami with Digital Finance at Cyos, in Singapore with Token 2049, in New York again with even more

events in London with digital asset summit at Breakpoint, all across the globe of finance. We are going to where the action is, where the capital is, and we will continue to speak with the best and brightest of our industry to bring you everything that they know and more. We're going to continue to commentate, curate, and taste make the future with you because we couldn't do it without you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you to everyone behind the scenes. Thank you to Avalanche for having us at AVAC Summit Day 2. Thank you to Zcash. And thank you to everyone else that I didn't thank so far. Truly a team effort, guys.

We love you. We thank you. And we will see you again very, very soon. Signing off from New York.