Season 4. Ep. - 4 - Grant Ships - An Evolutionary Grants Game

Transcript

welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we're building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive some digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and we publish an episode of about 10 episodes every couple months this season is lean mean Capital allocation machines offchain Capital allocation is mired by intermediaries it's not scalable it's not precise what are the ways in which we can do better Capital allocation on chain can we build scale precise Capital allocation machines can we remove intermediaries can we build more transparent evolutionary Capital allocation ecosystems by using the properties that blockchains give us what

are the coolest experiments that are doing this this is the theme of green pill season 4 lean mean Capital allocation machines one special thing we're doing this season is allowing you to collect each episode all episodes during this season are available on chain thank you so much to our collectors this month JT nickel how. eth zerox Lucas Sky james. eth MMA onchain and shanw br. there's a couple other people who have collected episodes but they don't have vs name set so I can't read out their addresses out loud anyway go to pods. Media green pill and collect an episode set in the ens name and I will shout you out during the episodes if you want to learn more about the green pill podcast you can visit our

website at Green pill. Network or you can download the green pill book for free join the Discord and become a member of your local green pill. Network chapter green pill. Network our guests today on the show are from Grants ships they are the founders of Grant ships Chris Jordan and Matt they are uh they they each individually have their own history with contributions in the Dow space from organizations as diverse as Public House Dow house metac cartel public nouns and they are thinkers about Capital allocation in the Dow space so basically what they have built is a app called Grant ships and you can check it out at Grant ships. fund Grant ships is

a framework for pluralistic Grant giving so basically it's a competitive Capital allocation system where Capital allocation programs so basically Grant programs can compete with each other to allocate capital for a dow and there's a voting period at the end where basically token holders get to vote on which program did the best job of allocating capital and then Grant ships can run another round where it's reshift the weights of who's giving out Capital according to who won the previous round so I kind of think of it as like a container for exploring the design space of capital allocation you can have Capital allocation programs a b and c and d competing with each other in order

to allocate capital for a dow ecosystem and the best project will win if uh if they set up this evolutionary container in the right way so it's kind of breaking my brain to think about this a little bit I we've explored a couple different Capital allocation mechanisms so far this season all all said and done will probably explore dozens but I like this idea of setting up an evolutionary game where Capital allocation mechanisms and programs can compete with each other and there's sort of like a Darwinism and we evolve the best Capital allocation mechanisms for the community so I think that Chris Jordan and Matt

are super smart and I think you're going to enjoy this episode of green pill on Grant [Music] ship all right Chris Jordan Matt how's it going welcome to the show going good good thanks for having us yeah maybe we'll start off with a quick round of intros we'll start with Chris and then go to Jordan and then go to Matt yeah I'm Chris otherwise known as boiler or boiler rat on out in web 3 world currently a member at Dow Masons and have also been a contributor at meta cartel and public host Dow house and public nouns hey I'm George core contributor at uh Dow Masons also was a core contributor at a dow house and DOW

nerd developer that's pretty much it hey I'm Matt Davis aka UI 369 out there in the MB 3 World um yeah one of the co-founders with these these two guys d Li a past core contributor at Dow house I have a past life as a full-time software developer kind of got into organizational Deni design hocy and things like that and kind of helping build Dows these days great well uh feels like yall have uh have done your reps around the Dow space and I'm curious to hear what you're working on now so tell me about Grant ships yeah so um Grant ships is a way for a dow to basically say I would like to put a

certain amount of funding into grants in general and then to um that goes into grant ships and then what will happen is that liquidity is fractalized into many or x amount of sub entities um programs basically Grant programs we call them Grant chips and then there is a period of time where those Grant ships uh compete to best allocate funding uh in the ecosystem and then there may be a gestation period where essentially the projects have time to build and after that period of time everything is done through aloe and is recorded on chain so our app will present to the voters what each ship has funded and the progress of

each project and then the Dow does a token curated Vote or token curated registry of each uh vote of each ship and the proportion of funds that each ship gets will be in proportion to the amount of vote that it gets uh in that period the idea is essentially that the game that uh Grant ships is will be adapting to the uh stated and revealed preferences of Voters over time anyone else have anything to Dad if not I've got more questions yeah we we kind of take our turns saying what Grant ships is I think George did a pretty good pretty good job basic idea is that you can have multiple teams doing grant allocation under one umbrella you know you put your money in

one pile split it up watch how they do have a vote at the end to kind of say how we think they did and then the funding for each of those groups going forward is uh determined by that vote and you know there's a lot of complexity revealed inside of inside of that we have some cool stuff for anti- capture using hats protocol so the Dow maintains control over who these uh allocators are so if you end up with you know just like a a bad actor or somebody AFK for too long you can voke the hat and you know the funds are safe we have some uh checks and balances with game facilitators and things like that you know we can get in more those details but at its core it's a governance system enforced by smart contracts that give

you a lot of the basic kind of rules and Pathways that you would want for a grants program and uh we we draw a lot from game design it's kind of like sitting down at a board game you know you've got some rules and basic moves you can make and yeah and then hopefully good grants come out so uh invite The Listener to check out Grant ships. fund which is the main site Behind grant ships and then you can actually click on the rules and see the rules of the game um but it feels like high level for me it seems like what you're doing is creating sort of like an evolutionary container where grants programs can compete against each other for the capital of the Dow and then over time as there's different epochs of funding it's sort of evolutionary where

the Dow can choose which Grant programs are are doing the best job of allocating Capital so going from a world where there's just one team doing a grant uh Grant distribution to multiple teams that are sort of competing with each other and you can compare and contrast them with each other is that two reductionist is that is that close yeah and and I'll yeah and and I'll add that like we try not to be prescriptive in how a ship would actually operate their program um right now we're using a direct direct grants model uh which is a strategy from all that we just um customized to work with with our game um so we're going to use like a milestone based model at the moment but we feel

that we also want to challenge different distribution models um such as quadratic funding or rgfs or anything like that we want to be able to fit within a ship so that we can also test which Which models work best in different situations so how's it going uh I think you all have done a couple pilot rounds can you talk tangibly about what you've learned I guess what's what's the meme is that no plan survives first contact with reality I'm curious your your first your first pilot program what have you learned and and and uh what What's the next experiment look like informed by those learnings pilot program is still upcoming so uh we're about to meet

reality we're in that stage right now so we've been in our Ivory Tower for couple months we've been developing our app app's close to ready I can do a demo at some point if you'd like yeah so we're we're about to hit reality we got a beta round coming up hopefully around early mid April and uh yeah that's when we'll we'll really you know get some valuable learnings and and kind of see what expected Behavior you know sort of worked out and what didn't yeah that that'll be really valuable and we're really excited for that yeah I was going to say with the beta r one of the challenges has been deciding how to scope the thing so we've received a grant through the arbitrium foundation and plurality Labs so we kind of have a general mandate to

provide impact for arbitrum but we that's very broad so if it were just like provide impact for arbitrum Grants program could be nearly anything so we were looking for a little bit more of a contained ecosystem to hold the grants program and so we have a few different areas that we're looking at like governance tooling we're looking at stylus um and you know gaming some others would be really interesting but we kind of have to get a bit of a community a pre-existing community that are going to run the ships and kind of have the you know the ideas for what make good grants and things like that um so we're making that choice and then we've got a bunch of ARB

through the grant that through the grant program that will run through Grant ships when we do the beta and yeah that'll be the where we get to test all this great game through stuff we like to talk about yeah excited to see what happens with the pilot and um uh I guess I guess I'm wondering what a very successful pilot looks like for for you can you sort of paint me a picture of of what you would like to see I would love something where the signal like the signal that we're expected to learn from is clear and is nonambiguous as possible so that you know we know clearly where it did well and clearly where it did not so that we can iterate on the next on the next round as quickly as possible

and to to sort of get through this idea maze as quickly as possible um it uh yeah it strikes me that you know given that there's sort of like an iterative evolutionary frame to how these grants compete with each other I'm reminded of the differences in in how organisms that have a short lifespan and a short short reproduction cycle uh how fast they evolve relative to organisms that have a longer lifespan or reproductive cycle you know think about like rabbits versus like Elephants or something like that um and and I've also you know having worked in organizations that have a 18month sales cycle versus like a one week sales cycle the the latter can can iterate much faster and so I'm curious to see

with with um you know with with grants programs how measurable the results are on like tighter Epoch and and how that can generate more Evolution over time because evolution is just such a powerful thing uh but it has to be subject to like a fitness function and uh yeah really curious to see where the rubber meets the road on that yeah that's a tricky trade-off right because on one hand you have everyone has been talking to us about uh impact evaluations right um because of you know Season 3 and obviously has to factor into the vote like it would be amazing if once we decide on the domain of our round we can also decide on how we can measure things but ultimately we still

want to have the control in the voters hands if that makes sense so that someone can look at the information and then make an informed choice you know afterwards right and and still be able to Rebel um and I think what that provides is a way to also provide feedback to the impact evaluation I don't does that make sense like like a way to to say like okay yeah I I noticed that they got X score but um you know maybe I disagree with how this was counted so I'm going to vote this way or or you know yeah it kind of reminds me of similar problems with that we've seen with optimism Retro pgf 3 they just said that basically badge holders had no orientation about how to vote and and I think that they said that in future retr

pgf rounds like actually putting the data out there so that badge holders can make a more data informed decision it kind of feels similar to to to that in in a way um I know push back if I'm wrong but that I connected yeah that's exactly it's definitely something it's definitely something that we we spent a lot of time kind of looking at what was available out there for tools that we can integrate with Grant ships and we kind of did settle on some we we may end up using some of them but in the end we work best as that data layer and being that all our data is going to be available on chain or ipfs the fact that it's available to any sort of impact

evaluation method is um probably the best thing that we could do within our our app at this moment I don't I don't know if we'll ever see a perfect thing yeah I guess ideally in a perfect world right like you would have your your your selection and then you know I'm kind of visualizing like um you know a a bunch of faders like you know in a recording studio where you can adjust the level uh of some sort of impact evaluation based on your your preferences uh like what's important to you and then you know it creates a rank score um for each ship or something like that I mean that would be I don't I

don't that's our OS scope for now for us but I mean that would be awesome something like that right where it sort of Blends a bunch of different um scoring scoring mechanisms yeah we often we often say well the the the grant programs that have the highest impact will be rewarded with extra funds going forward but the truth is the grant programs that receive the most votes will be rewarded with more funds and then we would we would anticipate that people care about impact enough to vote for the ones that they perceive having the highest impact but the votes are the fitness function and then we're just hoping to put information in front of the voter so that they can inform themselves but it would be nice if something like this could kind of have

like a like almost like a press emerge around it to like look at how people are doing and kind of report on hey here's what I see here's what I see if you care about this this is a good one and you know just just some conversation around what's going on so that the community can home in on what it cares about and if those things are being represented in their grants programs yeah I think it's it's it's interesting to create that evolutionary container around the grants programs uh where you tie impact not impact equals profit not only for the individual grantees but at the level of the grant program you're tying continuing funding to impact pack and uh so it feels like almost like a zipper like you dial it in at the grante level

and at the program level and uh and and that feels like it can be powerful so I I have to have you back and figure and ask you what you learned after the initial pilot sometime sum the ultimate grants program it's Unstoppable I was going to say that like eventually like we do kind of see a Marketplace almost of ships developing so that the people that develop good program and are really good at allocating in a certain domain they might not necessarily fit with a a round of of Grants or something like that so we we do kind of Imagine a situation where is being funded what sort of rounds are existing then people can pick

the perfect subow I guess that could use be used in that situation uh are you planning on uh franchising this out to other Dows I know that you said you're starting with arbitrum but how long until if I'm Dow X or l2x can I use grand ship I would say basically after our test like we yeah we would love to to test it out as many places as possible um I think that's better signal right and would really help us iterate our product is because every Dow has a and this is this is one of the great gifts of being in the space like at this moment right now is Dows are really developing their own kind of feel and flavor even just comparing and contrasting you know arbitrum and optimism alone right is is

pretty cool um so you know to see how it behaves in different environments would be great yeah I'm wondering you know if you think of this as like an evolutionary search space and we're trying to find the local Maxima of some utility function where that utility function is defined as I don't know let's just call it impact equals profit um it might be different on a peral basis but like if you were to put give the exact same program design and put it in optimism versus arbitrum versus polygon versus ZK sync would it evolve different programs over time because those those Dows have different value sets or different political economies you know like uh if you run the same experiment a thousand times in is it does it discover different different

mechanisms in in different ecosystems that would be like a really interesting experiment for for me to see yeah be like what I'm hoping for more or less is is vibrancy and adaptation as opposed to like finding some singular truth you know um that would be ideal like to see how things yeah like you said like adapt to different environments I think that would be even cooler usually we think of like three Grant ships running in a particular program and so yes they're competing but they're also learning from each other at the same time everything they do is pretty visible and transparent it's on chain you know and we have feeds in our app so you're you're G to kind of see what the other ships are doing so we anticipate some

best practices kind of uh you know transferring I don't know if there's genetic Gene transfer lateral Gene transfer something you know so there will be kind of an a an evolution in that way so if you had the thing running across different platforms like that I I would like it to see them learning from each other too your best practi is kind of Ming their way across the across the gene pools yeah it's interesting they're not only competing with each other but they're also cooperating with with each other it's like a coopetition probably similar in some ways to what we see in nature with multiple organisms that have symbiotic relationships but also zero some relationships with each other in a way yeah ideally that's that's what it becomes so when you vote you don't NE

it's not like uh like this one and none of the others you could kind of be like 80% on this one 20% on the other so it could be like an emergent budgeting system you know like a grant ship might find its Niche you know like you know what we get 15% of the vote every time by doing this thing that they like and you know we're not the Behemoth on the planes but we have our Niche and you know it might look like you're not out competing everybody because you're not getting the bulk of the vote but you found a survival strategy you know again that's all game theory that we're thinking about we'll know when we see it for real but different patterns like that could emerge it also makes me wonder sort of how to compare different mechanisms or approaches to each other

like sort of for example gitcoin now offers Three Mature uh Capital allocation mechanisms direct grants which are great because because they're just simple but they're centralized quadratic funding which is great because it's Democratic the person in the outer orbit of the of that ecosystem gets a say in where the capital is allocated and then retroactive public goods funding which indexes on the axis of time it's easier to see in retrospect what is head uh impact and I don't know can are you comparing apples to oranges to pairs by comparing a direct grants to a retroactive grants to a a democratic funding pilot um I mean in some ways you are but in other ways you know a dollar has to be allocated somewhere and it's a zero SU game between all the mechanisms so yeah I feel like there's a a question

or like a thread to pull somewhere in there but um yeah different Capital allocation mechanisms doing different things well is is definitely something that that we think a lot about at at gcoin the we're noticing this a lot as we try to like set up our beta round is how difficult it is to set up that scope first you need like a a scoped community who um who is interested and and will participate because obviously if no one's participating then the signal quality is low and you know it it could be like a bad feedback loop uh but another thing is like setting up a a game is is kind of like experiment design right you have to you have to

think about like what are we going to learn from this so if we want to compare different the efficacy of different programs um or different styles of strategies and stuff like that that you know you kind of have to scope the rules of your game to to cater to that whereas if like our beta round is all the same strategy everything's direct grants we're more comparing the efficacy of of the allocators themselves and how they behave within those bounds so it's it's it's a definitely like a learning experience for us too to try to figure out how to how to set that up right for our beta in the end it would be up to dowas choosing to implement Grant ships to set up to set that up so you know you

probably see a lot of different answers to that question and hopefully there's enough rounds that you would see some interesting trials you know quadratic versus direct funding another way I sort of envisioned the grants the end State here which by the way I got to say like my vision is remarkably similar in a lot of ways to uh I think in yours the the word pluralism I I think comes to mind for me also although I I never conceived a putting it grants programs in an evolutionary container but um one of the ways that I conceive the uh the end State here is that um similar to how we have client diversity at the consensus layer in the execution layer of the ethereum network where no client has dominance uh and therefore a failure of one client won't lead to a failure of

the entire network uh I I Envision that each Dow that's above I don't know let's call it a hundred million dollars in in size will'll have a plurality of capital allocation mechanisms and none of them will get above like I don't know 25% of of the capital and and what that does is like you know if your Dow has Grant ship and retroactive funding and quadratic funding and I don't know conviction voting and direct to contract incentives basically it becomes hard to game all of the Dallas Capital allocation mechanisms and it's through the plurality of capital allocation mechanisms that you create a rich vibrant diverse ecosystem of capital allocation in in that community and so yeah I don't know it feels like the end state of our Visions

is is somewhat similar but you're applying this evolutionary pressure whereas we're providing this just the Swiss army knife that has a bunch of different Capital allocation mechanisms in it so yeah I don't know feel free to react to that but I'm just I I think that the end state is is very similar in our Visions yeah absolutely I think the the origin story of grand ships came from uh a contest or a joke race that uh disruption Joe put up um like about a year ago now um and you know he he just just like designed a pluralistic framework for or a grants program and we're like that sounds great he had a a couple really cool articles that he or even I think there were just Forum posts um that

really resonated with us and I think even before that we weren't it wasn't really on our mind like the pluralistic grants Frameworks were're just like that's a great idea um let's let's really dig in deep and and see what we can do with it yeah and you mentioned the Swiss Army knife that that you guys are working on there's a reason we chose to you know like pop out one blade from the Swiss army knife for for our test but having a lots lots of different tools within Grant ships um will be kind of give it some longevity and a little bit more flexibility but we often call it a meta framework where we're not prescriptive about the grants part we're we're kind of one level above that where

it's like we're holding a container we've designed a game with in which your grants program can play so we're not trying to be a grants program really uh you know we have ideas about grants and we could run our own Grant ship but it's kind of just the space carved out for Grants programs and that's why I I say that it's a governance system more than it is a grants program it's like governance smart contracts enforced governance system for Grants so that if that shape of governance appeals to your Your da or your organization you can fire it up and you know there's room for Grants programs in there there like one

one level up on the on the meta in this interesting spot where we know that existing token holder governance is flawed it leads to plutocracy the political economies on top of them can get toxic uh there's too much overhead to review proposals and I'm really excited about this era's this cycle of figuring out Capital allocation that minimizes governance uh in in the sense of what it looks like in the last cycle and and explores this new search space of how do we allocate Capital uh in a way that helps these communities fund what matters but um yeah it feels like you guys have built a container for exploring that that search space which I which I which I think is cool and um

yeah I I I I think it it really depends on how the pilot goes but as a as a conceptual framing it seems really interesting yeah that that's pretty much where we're at too is like we got to we got to push it out there we'll probably watch it get broken in a bunch of different ways and then you know we put it back together and release it again and continue the process over and over until I think at least we're able to confidently say that we've tested our fundamental premise and um once we get there we can we can sort of make a um a determination of like does were our was our hypothesis correct really I was just going to say that you know Underneath It All are some contracts that do certain things you know it's built on some Alo

strategies and so we have this idea that it's a grants program but it's kind of a you know a state machine with money flowing through it and it'd be kind of cool if people look at it and see what it does you know and it has it has some great mechanisms in there to to kind of enforce funds flowing in a certain way with a lot of visibility and it may be that you want to you know put some funds into it and use it in a way that we haven't thought of at all you know it's some contracts you know we've got our ideas on top of it definitely would work as an evolutionary container um what we call it wrong wrong pathing you know like when you yeah yeah cut through the yard because somebody built a sidewalk

and you uh you know you take the shortcut we might see some of that with with these contracts as well yeah we got nerd sniped pretty hard when uh um listen to the aloe green pill you know they just generally like the idea um it's a very like fundamental truth um about Dows is we become really good at taking in Cal Capital but pretty horrible at at Distributing it um to a certain degree at least not I wouldn't say horrible but um not great so you know we we were definitely that was like top of mind for us and know what this is basically is it's an all strategy that creates other all or like will'll deploy other Alo strategies and um kind of keep them within the same bounds or or rules

and uh the idea is to eventually you know there's this big store of Al strategies ready for people to play with you know and you know raid that store turn them into Grand ships and compare and play and see how they do yeah I feel like now now that we're talking about this I'm I'm tempted to take one of the ideas in the getcoin rainbow paper which is where we laid out a plurality of different Alo strategies that could be built like I want to fund like 10 different teams building 10 different allocation strategies and put them in a grant ship container and like have them compete with each other Battle Bots type thing so maybe that's something that we could do uh in the future well I'd love to have you guys uh it's great to hear that you were nerd tonight by the Alo green

pill episode now I'm doing 15 or 20 episodes about uh Capital allocation so um would' love to just make space for you all to respond to sort of the the thesis behind this season which is uh we all do Capital allocation all the time from like paying your friends back for dinner to paying your bills to things are full-time jobs for people like VC funding or crowd or like government grants uh our hypothesis is that Capital allocation offchain in the old world is mirrored by gatekeeping and it's not scalable and it's not precise we have the potential with onchain capital allocation to build more democratic more transparent accessible powerful evolutionary uh Capital allocation

mechanisms and uh that it just feels very powerful to me to have these programmable smart contracts we can program our values into our money and build uh scalable precise Capital allocation mechanisms at at uh uh on chain and so um would' love to just make space for you all to react to that hypothesis and um you know if there's anything that you think I missed or that I got wrong uh let me know and um yeah I'm curious if there's anything interesting about the that design space to y'all yeah there's a lot yeah there's a lot there uh but maybe we can do around Robin go ahead yeah the way I see it the you know kind of the old world way of doing things there's certain patterns that we've homed in on over time for starting businesses running

governments and such that are just kind of assumed as the way to do it you know anytime I hear somebody talked really specifically about like startup funding and like all of the terminology that goes into it and they're like this is the way it's done I'm like well that's the way you're doing it it isn't necessarily the only way to do it and there's kind of this unbundling and decomposition that happens in web 3 where we we're kind of taking apart the machine and putting the pieces on the floor and saying how could we reassemble these and it's it's like the blessing and the curse because a lot of my experience in DS feels like I'm standing in a warehouse surrounded by parts and you know there's a hundred different people picking them up and

being like what about this part let's do it this way and you know it's it's kind of chaos once you disassemble the the order however there's a lot of potential in there and as you start reassembling them into new shapes you've got to kind of see which ones work like can they compete with the other patterns those other patterns exist because they've worked they've kind of evolved over time you know people try things and they work or they don't and so here we are in this this ripe space where we can create almost anything and it's important to create your distinctions you know this and not that and I think there's kind of a tendency toward

um just like complete openness almost Anarchy like don't make any rules the the magic comes out of the creativity of the crowd and we'll just we'll just see what happens but there's definitely a place to create some structure create some rules create some games and say hey let's play it this way and see how it goes over time and you know in this case that's what we're doing we've basically designed a game that we hope also allocates capital capital well I love that idea of taking it apart and putting it on the ground and and sort of like reassembling the capital allocation machine from first principles based off

of assumptions that are onchain uh as opposed to what it would exist in the past that feels like a powerful metaphor to me and having the onchain enforcement is a big because a lot of those ideas out there in the old world are you know just we have like the drivers installed in our brains and you know somebody who will diligently enforce them in a spreadsheet or something but it requires a lot of consensus and there's a lot of room for uh you know people to break the rules or you know we use law to enforce it right like that's like Old World governance when you've got contracts you can kind of be like you know what this contract ain't going to work anyway except the way we coded it you get Cod is law I don't actually need people to to grock every Nuance I can sort of have

the contract hold the rails for a certain game and then we get to focus on the things we want to focus on so a lot of potential the previous to add on to that like the previous fundamental assumptions about organizational design are are sort of probably Gull at this point like it's like we've been cooking for uh thousands of years and we still haven't discovered salt you know like um you know now we got a new flavor or a new part of the flavor Spectrum to play with right and so we need to we need to experiment there's a absolute necessity for that because now we have to you know let let's try things out and see how it works and we need a way to to look at that and compare in contrast yeah and

one one thing that just on a little more like real terms like I've noticed that kind of during this down term in um there's been a lot of protocol development uh a lot of these parts that we're putting together have been developed over the last little while and there's been a lot of protocols that kind of build their front ends to kind of demonstrate what they can do and we're kind of excited that we've been able to take some of these protocols and and mesh them into a product that is can actually produce some results and um also leaving the room the the door open for new protocols to come in and be part

of of Grant ships uh so I'm pretty excited about that sort of design space that has been opened up with all this protocol development that's that's been going on because really some some of these contracts are puzzle pieces and that's what we've done is kind of yeah put put together our little puzzle yeah it's like really a Confluence of factors um there's a bunch of dows with hundreds of millions of dollars of token treasuries uh there's there's also people who are working on Capital allocation mechanisms there's now people who run grants programs and so it's really a perfect storm to kind of start exploring this design space and and that's one of the

things I want to do in this green pill season is just highlight the people who are doing the the coolest experiments so yeah I can't wait to see see what we discover this this Market cycle and um yeah hope hopefully it pushes Dow governance forward to to have run these experiments during during this part of the cycle but but yeah we'll see uh I think we can only imagine what the results will be and they'll only be obvious in hindsight um okay so uh I guess we're getting towards the bottom of the hour we only have 10 more minutes before we have to wrap but um I'll get I'll I'll start moving towards my wrap-up questions the first is if you're maximally successful what does Grant ships and the Ecology of capital allocation around it look like in 10

years so 10 years forward what does this look like if you're maximally successful I think that the world of capital allocation on chain can grow to nation state levels um I spent a lot of time listening to Juan Benet he was on your program before and I really think that Grant chips could could sort of strive towards those goals of nation state type funding for research development or whatever needs to be allocated to uh in 10 years I think we can reach that sort of goal yeah so right now I think we're all thrilled that there's tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in Dows but uh I think the United States spends on the

order of trillions of dollars per year so uh what is that like four or five orders of magnitude before we're operating that at that level don't hold me to that math that's just napkin math but uh a lot of growth ahead if if this is figured out yeah yeah I think anyone else have a reaction to that if yall maximally successful in 10 years what does it look like yeah I guess kind of reiterating on like before I think the some of our assumptions um about like what is what is best practices are are tested and perhaps overturned or perhaps um solidified and if it if Grand chips is maximally successful it'll be sort of

the place where the new idea comes to be tested uh um and it that just sort of that just kind of how people's minds map to it is that you know like oh well that sounds like a great idea go test it there um you know and I think that would be that would be awesome yeah just the you know the smart contract machine running at full speed with lots of funds flowing through it and everything working well and allocation happening it it's like the pattern of Grant ships it seems like something that every da should consider even if you just used one Grant ship inside of it it's still a pretty

awesome container for a grants program because it provides the visibility and the revocable permissions so a shape like Grant ships I think ought to be uh you know just like a meme that that goes you know having something like this for your Dow and then having something that you know patterns like this for other aspects of your Dow you know this this could expand to you know like we've talked a little bit about payroll and different areas where you could use similar approaches so you maybe an ecosystem of tools to support Dows grows out of this maybe funded by the grants coming out of Grant ships that would be

pretty cool I just see the the machine kind of growing and helping Dows do what they want to do you know just to Max maximal efficiency at some point Point yeah I think it's it's really quite cool to hear the uh the different approaches that you've uh or the different visions that you have and and how they sort of uh interrelate with each other last question and I'll ask it to all three of you would love to hear from all of you is there anything that I didn't ask that you want to say uh maybe we'll go backwards from how yall responded last time so Matt I'll start with you not to put you on the spot sure anything that I wish you'd asked um I saw I saw this question written down was what would it

be and I think it would be something in the realm of um big question why web 3 you know where I'm in this space and working with Dows largely because I see so much potential and just saw so much potential wasted in traditional organizations um I I was in the air for US Air Force for a little while and that's a very structured environment and there's actually a lot of really good things about a very structured environment but it's very hierarchical you know like you wear your uniform and you have your rank and all of this but there was actually a lot of good stuff in there to having a very well organized system go into the corporate world disappointed in different ways and kind

of um see different attempts at how can we organize people in a way that helps us each bring out our gifts and work together to accomplish a larger Mission together and that that's kind of kind of what we're hacking at here you know it's like this little microcosm of how do we allocate grants well but a system like what we've built I think would let people get into the seat where it's like you know what you need to do your your job description is well defined you've got the tools that you need to do it and we want to see what you're capable of go you know like you you don't have that and you

know like like a boss telling you how to do it or whatnot you this this little chip on the iceberg that I'm trying to do here in one minute is very big H but I think it's really just about creating places where people can work well together and have fun doing it and create cool stuff without the pain and suffering um of traditional organizations and bringing a lot of the great patterns from those orgs and using this awesome technology of smart contract governance uh so I don't know what the question is that I wish you asked but I like talking about that topic I'm Not Gon to go on too long but really what we're talking about is the I guess the

coordination we talk about that all the time how do we how do we get ourselves to work together well for a beautiful future love that uh Jordan Chris I'm curious if you have a reaction to the same question is there anything I didn't ask that you want to say you sort of got to the core of it pretty fast I I I think I'm satisfied um I'm sure I'll think about of like 20 things once we uh leave the call but um yeah yeah and I'm I'm just excited to um keep pushing web 3 forward and seeing what we can do with it uh so I'll just

I'll leave that as as my final remark yeah I could say I'm excited about Dows right now like if we're doing that like um you know it was it was it was getting sort of dreary uh a while back and I am really excited to see where things are going it's like it's kind of like you know we're we're slowly lowering one leg into the to the big boy pants you know like it's it's you know we're seeing how it might actually start coming together and that's that's exciting yeah for sure well uh this has been a really fun episode I think that you're going to break some brains with how you're approaching doing Capital allocation with grandship and I enjoyed the the conversation for the listeners if you

check out the show notes you can get a link to everyone's Twitter that was on the episode and also get a link to Grant ships. fund which is the website for this project so gentlemen thanks so much for joining the green pill podcast thank you for having us thanks yeah thank you for having us Al righty we just heard from Chris Jordan and Matt from Grant ships I'm excited about them because I think the way that they are creating an evolutionary Fitness game to discover the best Capital allocation mechanisms is super cool uh that's a mouthful they're basically building a uh a way of running multiple grants programs running against each other and and I just think that that's cool they have a similar Vision to me where we've got a pluralistic ecosystem of capital

allocation that all compliments uh all all compliments itself and so uh it's it's really cool to see Grant ship and and I wish them well on their on their pilot thanks for listening to the green pill. network podcast this podcast features the people who are building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world like Grant ships if you value our work please go to pods. medgreen pill and find this episode and collect it and while you're at it might as well make an offering to our algorithmic overlords Please Subscribe rate and review it really helps build the regen crypto Movement by telling the algorithm that you enjoy the show all right thanks for listening and see you on the next one [Music]

peace