Season 4 - Ep. - 3 The unlikely shared origins of bluegrass and blockchains W/ Justin Holmes

Transcript

welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we're building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive some digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and we publish a season of five to 10 episodes every couple months this season is lean mean Capital allocation machines green pill season 4 Capital allocation is the process of deciding how to spend or invest Financial Resources with web 3 we can maximize not just Financial Returns on our resources but Al achieve impact equals profit achieve public goods funding achieve protopia how can we build cryptoeconomic systems that precisely allocate Capital scale what are the coolest experiments these are the themes of Greenfield season 4 lean

mean Capital allocation machines one special thing we're doing this episode this this season is allowing you to collect this episode all episodes during the season are available on chain you can go to pods. medgreen pill to find all the episodes and to start collecting thank you to our top collectors this month JT nickel how. eth Simons sd. zerx lucas. eth and sky. if you want to learn more visit our website at Green pill. Network where you can download the green pill book for free join the Discord and become a member of your local green pill. Network chapter Our Guest today is Justin Holmes Justin is a cryptographer and also a musician quite an interesting medal of skill sets Justin can be seen

at crypto events across the world playing blockchain Bluegrass in video game traditionals I wanted to have Justin on the show and to talk Capital allocation with me because he just released his debut album entitled vowel sounds and he did it in quite an interesting way he released it with a mechanism known as threshold cryptography where basically he encrypted access to the album and then once a crowdfund got above 10 eth so about $40,000 as of time in time of recording then the album got released to all so the album became a public good for all once it R reached that threshold of recording and it I think that what's really interesting to talk to Justin is

um well not only is he gonna play music throughout the episode which is the first time I've ever done that but I I think what's interesting about Justin is that he's very talented musically but he's also a really talented cryptographer and that allows him to spin this udal Loop of how do we allocate Capital to musicians really fast he's experimenting with this interesting mechanism for how do we how do we allocate Capital to to musicians because he's both a cryptographer and a cipher Punk but also a musician himself and and I think that the old model for artists is is very gatekeeping it's very hierarchical it's very much about profit for Ticket Master and for the record industry and what are the ways in which we could use

cryptography and crypto to get past that to allocate Capital to musicians we we in outed that theme this episode but we also just sort of enjoy Justin's music while we're at it I want to show Justin's debut album vowel sounds which is available as a link in the show notes B sounds is uh his debut album from Justin miles homes it was recorded in Nashville with a handpicked Ensemble of award-winning Bluegrass session musicians and it packs a hard driving acoustic feel along with the wind instruments and varied singing techniques that have made Holmes's live show a draw at cryptography events across the world the album was released on September 9th using revealer a tool you made by holes and other Bluegrass

musicians and fans to release music through using threshold Network so vow sounds I've enjoyed myself I listen to it alongside other bluegrass music that I listen to and one of the cool things is to hear a really twangy beat and to hear Justin singing about cryptography and uh nation states and fiat currency on top of it it's really quite an quite a beautiful experience I'm enjoying it a lot during this episode we talk of about bull market Vibes what has changed as the market has turned more bull we talk about the Crossovers between musicians as counterculture and cryptography as counterculture and we talk about the origins of the Electronic Frontier Foundation in John Perry Barlo now an institution that is protecting our

rights in the digital age but a uh institution that started with the counterculture in the 60s and with the growth of Folk Music and in in bluegrass music we talk about what type of punk Justin is we talk about the differences between Cipher Punk solar Punk MCO Punk we talk about the different musical cultures in crypto I think that there's a very Berlin techno sort of scene from what I've seen in crypto events and we talk about Bluegrass as a complement to that but also a different type of force to that and we talk about video game music because we both grew up in the 90s and Super Nintendo video game music is a lot of fun so uh this is a a different type of episode than one that I think I've ever done before a it's our first musical episode that we've done it's

also the first IRL episode that I've done so if you're watching on video you'll actually see me and Justin in the same room it's first 160 podcasts and it's the first time first time that I've done that and uh I think it was a good episode to fit into our our season four about Capital allocation I think that innovators who are innovating the future of onchain music and moving us away from the hierarchical intermediaries that have been associated with the Live Events but also with the release of music is an important theme so this was a fun episode I think you're going to enjoy just [Music] hommes all right take two here we go one two three you want to do do it together

one two three that was terrible one one two three there we go one of us has Rhythm the other one doesn't I don't know about that I think I was pretty off all right Justin welcome to the green pill podcast thanks for getting to do this thanks for coming out to callor to tape with me heck yeah man I've uh really been looking forward to this for a long time uh I love green pill podcast and uh it's really a pleasure to be here yeah uh you played a show at the gcoin house and I know that all of the regions that came to the gcoin house at e Denver really enjoyed that and so excited to extend your music out to the green pill Network and let all of our listeners get a taste of what you've been doing which I identify as one part Musical and one

part sa for Punk cryptography so you're really unique in that way well thanks man yeah I had a wonderful time playing that show for sure it was uh it was a real pleasure playing kind of some old traditional songs in a church setting uh I felt like the Acoustics the could hear us bouncing off the wood and you you know you wonder how many of those old songs have ever been played uh in in that maybe in that room before and you know we mix some old traditionals along with all of my song all the lyrics of all my songs are are generally kind of about the emergence of the internet you just put out an album And The Way You released it is is quite interesting the theme of this season of green pill is about Capital allocation and I think you're challenging in your release of

the album and the mechanism through which You released it threshold cryptography the traditional Capital allocation and power structures of the music industry so I want to get into that at some point but maybe we could start off with a uh with one of the songs from your album and then and then get into some of the philosophy behind it sure yeah [Music] a policeman and a fortune teller both left their post at heler high water cuz neither of them were who they had set out to

[Music] be you can lie about the mail you can lie about the money but a little bit of math we'll always find the funny business trust comes from the earth like the banion [Music] tree hold on and be braised I know you see that coming waves well the water is steer if we want to live in the fire in our hearts it's SS again the earth makes nodes out of some of it Stone and they carry good news to

the air back [Music] home [Music] I push to talk with my right ring finger

and fly back home with my left wing lingering never knowing who will walk through my front door with a cup and a string I could say anything to a shadow band trap like a mouse with a spring and that's how we arrive at our credit [Music] score hold on and be brave I know you see that coming way well the water is dear if we want to live in the fire and our hearts is ours

to give the earth makes nodes on of some of it Stone and they carry good news to the air back [Music] home the police men and a fortune teller both left their post at H hot water cuz neither of them were who they had set out to [Music] be you can lie about the mail you can lie about the money but a little bit of math will always find the funny business

trust comes from the earth like the banon [Music] tree all right um I have this experience listening to your music where I'm I I live in Colorado I love Blu grass I love string instruments and uh just viscerally enjoying the music and then the lyrics engage me the the cerebral part of My Brain Trust comes from the Earth lyrics like that and so uh I think that it's it's just so cool how you blend the really cerebral Cipher Punk values with really good music and um I'm wondering if you

could tell me what what was the inspiration for for writing this album and and um and and how did this album album come together well um the record is called vowel sounds which is uh a call to um the techniques of of throat singing which you heard a little bit there or maybe you call it overtone singing um which is really uh kind of an understanding that the the vowel sounds that we emit uh in our everyday speech are actually part of an incredible overtone series it's the reason that we even are able to parse this you know speech at the end of the day is this uh it is a very visceral experiential especially here we are you usually do your podcast remotely right but here we are in a room and you can

hear the the analog Acoustics of my speech one of the most you know a a pivotal a pivotal innovation of the humankind is this extremely low bod rate Communications medium called speech and uh I think that a lot of our impetus to um use vibrations to communicate with each other leading all the way to radio and eventually of course to Wi-Fi and and to the link layer of the internet um is part of that kind of deep Instinct in The Human Condition to um empathize with each other by creating different kinds of vibrations that might give you the same feeling or the same idea that I have uh and so that was the

understanding that or or that that um suggestion in my head was kind of the the initial impetus for the you know I I uh I I have worked in crypto now for a few years and I've worked in software including some crypto some cryptography for a long time before that so um you know for me a lot of the songs are just uh an expression of what it feels like to uh try to rise to the challenge of of architecting an Internet that's good for for humans uh I think that's really long and short of where my songs come from I don't I don't is you know when you said um you were talking about like how you kind of feel the music internally and then hear the words that's usually the way that I write is I'll chart I'll have a chart an idea for a chart and I'll

write it and then and that's almost like a unit test if I was doing tdt you know like the chart is like the unit test and then later I make it pass by like figuring out what words go with with the music yeah it's like up and down the stack of the emotive and the cerebral or like maybe left and right brains together and uh uh what I think is beautiful is that it's about our moment it's about our moment of rewriting the internet and bringing power back to the people and there's a lot of cypherpunk values in there but there's also Bluegrass values in there that I and I and I hear that in your music heck yeah man yeah I think that um Bluegrass or more broadly defined traditional music when I use the word Bluegrass I in that setting when I'm Excuse me talking about

Bluegrass as a cultural phenomenon I tend to think of it as being that word Bluegrass I don't necessarily think of it as as the specific genre on like the Billboard Chart um I think a lot of people are making great music that they are calling old time um or or Trad or Pub Trad and uh I kind of think of all that music all that traditional Corpus as being um yeah part of the Launchpad or part part of the part of the what makes us feel those Tendencies to um to carry on that music and and understand the connection between that traditional music and and the cipher Punk values that uh for which our Our Moment gives us an opportunity to to exercise yeah well let's get into it maybe uh would

you mind playing another song first and then we'll get into that a little bit more oh yeah [Music] um [Music] [Music]

oh you can't see me you can only see my key but I don't love the chain more than the tree I pedal toward the son to make peace with someone and plant lilacs on the morning of the bank run way down AE time runs us in a run time when we love each other's thread let what will just be the blocks that are ahead generate all of hisory

[Music] my a caress across the chains I sent one lover grains through consensus tubes of Secrets and chicanes a zero knowledge proof is for thundering ho through a storm of scams of Talking Heads in blood stain pillared [Music] roofs away down a hill time runs us in a run time when we love each other's

thread let what will just be the blocks that are ahead generate all of history [Music] n

[Music] I'm [Music] well I've been through a fiasco with a

hat held in my hand can't get a man to know a thing he's paid not to understand and a thief KN and steel when he mins copper claded zinc and you and I will only heal when we decide to stop and [Music] think [Music] wow was that was that throat singing at

the end that's so cool um You released all sounds in a completely untraditional way and I'm wondering if you could tell us about the album drop and how you're challenging the hierarchy and the traditional way that capital is allocated in music and the way an album is album is dropped you say non-traditional I use the word traditional a little bit differently I I tend to drop in the word orthodox where you've used the word traditional it's outside the sort of orthodox music Finance system but uh my record once released is uh Creative Commons licensed Creative Commons share alike which I I have kind of mixed feelings about we

could get into but uh I do um I do like the idea of stating clearly that um once once I make a piece of music once I put it out there it is not really materially mine once it is a flak file that is uh a series of physical Impressions on a on a hard drive or or you know a uh whatever form the media may take I I I don't view it as something that I'm able to own and I think that that uh is actually quite traditional I think the the idea of trying to um shoehorn ownership in the property sense into music is actually largely a 20th century phenomenon I I

mean not there are certainly other other exceptions uh in the Opera world and elsewhere you can look for kind of fascinating uh FAS Tales of of various legal Frameworks so the way that we decided to release vowel sounds uh we we knew from the beginning that we wanted to be Creative Commons we didn't want it to be the kind of thing that um if you paid then you have some legal authority to listen to it and if you don't then you don't have that Authority we we really want people to be able to listen to the music in as frictionless a way as possible again because I think that that is the tradition um so what we did is encrypt the record and distribute it via bit torrent and ipfs and uh people were able to then download the encrypted

version of the record uh and we took the key uh symmetric key although we're we're kind of plowing new ground here um my friend beam just uh won a prize at the eth UR hackathon for taking a next level on this we call it revealer uh and he actually in his revealer uh he is forking it so that he can use the actual symmetric pair so that anybody now can anybody now can up up uh I'm sorry can encrypt something that will be revealed at reveal time um but for our purposes we just took the symmetric key that was used to encrypt the record and we encrypted that uh using um threshold cryptography uh meaning that nodes had to participate in a multi-party computation to reveal the symmetric key it's it essentially really just a

glorified Shamir secret sharing if I'm being honest uh and the nodes watched a smart contract and when that contract got to 10 eth uh then they performed the multi-party computation release the symmetric key and then of course everyone would the you know we had a web app where everyone who um who had already downloaded the encrypted record could easily uh right you know there's a player there that decrypted it um we learned a little bit about we we did turn some mobile devices into into heaters we realized that we maybe could do some better front end crypto there but um it's a good good learning l so the mechanism basically was once we get to 10 eth then a key is revealed and then the album becomes a network good a

public good for for everyone out there that's right that's right at the at the moment of reveal we regard it as uh as a public good or as a a non-owned item yeah yeah well the good news for the listeners is that they can go check out your album we did you did reach that 10 e threshold and so the album is is out there to to listen to right now so there'll be a link in the show notes where people can can check out the album and uh I listened to your album side by side with the other Bluegrass that I listen to Green Sky Bluegrass and Elephant Revival and all them and I I really enjoy the album so I think the first takeaway for the listeners is go check out the album but I'm wondering while we're thinking about Capital allocation this green pill season is

this something that you're trying to Pioneer and make available to other musicians uh is it is it meant to just be a a middle finger to the Orthodox uh musical establishment or uh do you do you see that music music going down a way of being monetized in a different different way because of cryptography and peer-to-peer networks and all the things that we're pioneering in this space uh I don't know that I would call it a middle finger um I think uh I don't know in my mind the um well I mean you are the traditional musical models based off of scarcity right and paying for song paying for download and this is about anti- Ral risks and sort

of like coordination in order to unlock the anti- ralis monetization uh absolutely that that part is for sure true and I think again if you um if you just look at traditional music you find builtin an anti- ralis impetus and so far is that uh everybody makes better music when they're collaborating with other people one guy picking a guitar uh is one thing but when you have really talented musicians that you can feature on your record or or you can be on someone else's record I think you end up with um with all boats rising from that tide um now to your bigger question or I I kind of interpreted as the bigger part is is is

the vision here to move this forward in such a way that it is available to other musicians and hopefully becomes a phenomenon uh the answer to that is yes most certainly I think that uh there's a big looming question right now because we you know was denominated in eth 10 eth and it was only the only cont contributions could be made were in eth uh and the result is that uh the contributors the list of contributors is ordered by amount and each of them got an nft and artifact minted uh so you know number zero or I don't know if if it was zero or one indexed but the number one is of course then the the highest amount and then what that that really gives us um it gives us a great signal going forward about uh who you

know it uh provides documentation of um early adopter early mover uh and so too do some of the aspects of our live shows that were kind of trying to have onchain representations of we can talk about that too but um a big question is because I'm already known in crypto circles and because I already have uh followers from my code from GitHub um am I is this just a one-off am I able to do this in a way that no one else maybe is able to I do think that this model is gives leverage to the generalist uh I think that um people who are sort of ort of involved culturally

or technologically in crypto are going to have uh an advantage but I also think that we're moving to a world very quickly where um where people are starting to take responsibility for the surrounding the the economic engines that surround them in particularly with regard to the way uh that they contribute to to public goods and the way that they um manufacture the uh Machinery by which public goods are funded um see this with uh you know to me my mind goes to like a Resurgence in um Community gardening and and the the boom of uh bicycling infrastructure and and and and things like this um where there's uh not necessarily denominate in in capital

similar to the um mechanisms of melium in your last episode where you can't you you you have a distribution of that lives outside anything they could be enumerated in capital um I I think that as we I think that as we transition to um those Machinery being part of our everyday public Consciousness that it's going to be easier for um people who are um maybe less involved in the kind of nitty-gritty who are not opening poll requests to crypto code to be able to use revealer and to be able to engage with the crypto Community yeah um and we have we have a bunch of other ideas too um I like the idea of like signing merch

literally with a cryptographic signature but only in person yeah so we've thought about like if we had uh you could have a commit and reveal scheme where you have like a secret that you randomly generate and then you hash that secret and and sort of stake it and then anyone who has the secret can steal the artifact the nft but if you bring that secret to me I'll sign it and that's reflected in the smart contract and that gives us another way to identify um fans friends and then in time uh to I know this is maybe another middle finger in your mind but to um also take a look at the ticket masters of the world and um figure out how we can uh how we can do live shows and live

ticketing in a way that is just way more um Democratic than you have uh right now with the kind of corrupt ticketing systems yeah one of the one of the things that sort of stands out for me from talking to you is that you're you really deeply understand music and how to play music music history but you also deeply understand cryptography and what I think what I think is cool here is that you're scratching your own itch with the way that you're engaging with your fan base the way the fan base is going to allocate Capital to your musical journey and uh I I think that's a really powerful potent combo for discovering something new something in the frontier something that hasn't been hasn't been done before so I can't wait

to see where it goes I mean you too man right you you are a self- itch scratcher too in many ways I think yeah that's the Genesis of getcoin was in a lot of ways I wanted I was an open source software developer I knew that it wasn't being funded well and it was about creating mechanisms for doing that and the loop the the UDA Loop Orient observe side and then act the loop that you go through can be much tighter when you when when you're not designing for someone else you're designing for yourself because you can just spin that Loop really fast and iterate towards the local Maxima and speaking of that iteration I think you mentioned that you're working on another album right now as well yeah um mhm yep we are working on another album we've got about uh 20 I say we I mean uh you

know this is not a oneman Enterprise I do basically all the writing I do all the set list deciding but I have a ton of support uh and it feels like it's very fluid every time I see you in a new city you're like I found a fiddler in this city that's gonna play with me during this show so so it feels like people are in and out and I think that's very important that it's it's an interesting invite I think for people in a given City when um you can say hey come to this crypto event of course now everyone's heard of crypto that's that's not going to be a mystery to anybody but um I think it's a really special invite when you say hey this instrument that you're good at has a home here come and come and um play these songs uh let me

teach you some of these songs and kind of understand how uh Bluegrass collaboration styles dovetail with crypto collaboration styles which I think they do very nicely so I've been very proud to feature we had Pepa Opera in Colombia which is which is was really wonderful we had David Pras in uh Barcelona when we played in Czech Republic man I played with six Czech men and and it was that was a challenge because um they were you know their their high bandwidth go-to of course speaking to each other in check and uh you know that that was a real challenge having seven stringed instruments on stage which you're always kind of risking going out of tune and you're you know there's a lot of communication there um but yeah once you get in band meaning you're communicating through the notes of the music um that language

barrier kind of goes way but uh yeah the the the Trek traditional Street Music Man the um the doo has become one of my favorite instruments lately and uh I I don't play it myself but that's actually a Czech instrument or it's a Slovakian instrument well it's an American instrument invented by a a Slovakian inventor who was hearkening back to instruments that he saw as a child on uh on the streets there in chuv and Street Music and um that has been kind of roundly accepted now in in bluegrass uh and so um it was super exciting to like feature the doo at at eth Prague MH yeah I think that's a very important and that that extends of course beyond music I think all the ways in which we identify public goods and invite people to uh

contribute in their own way um we're going to learn a lot about how crypto really works right not just um not just Katch hashing to tie one block to the next but actually what people expect and what they need if we invite them to do their thing and and demonstrate to them that their thing is is part of uh part of our vision yeah well um yeah looking forward to well getcoin 2.0 is all about helping uh innovators of capital allocation mechanisms democratize those mechanisms and and scale them and uh I think I I think the example that our listeners are familiar of us doing that is with retr pgf we took optimism retr pgf and made

it available to other people who wanted to do it and um I think it'd be cool to as you're pioneering these mechanisms once you hit product Market fit on them maybe there could be some sort of partnership there where we uh we make it available to other musicians or to other people in the community so there might be a three3 there yeah man I think I think there really is definitely a three three there and and I think actually that you could even dial in some of the micro there because the the Retro model I don't know if You' necessarily call it pgf but the the Retro model is kind of fascinating to me for for live music I I I generally like the idea of people having a frictionless entry at the door I don't love like paying for a ticket at the door but I do like the idea of

people walking away with a ticket stub online you know on chain that um that then um gives them the opportunity to pay retroactively for something that they enjoyed uh or I also even like the model of if you show up and you want to pay at the door there's certain benefits you can get with regard to onchain merch or all kinds of benefits it could even include preferable seating stuff who knows but you can only do that if you have a ticket Stu from a previous show so kind of almost like in a way and and I think to some degree there's well I don't know I I I kind of like the idea of bucking the idea that uh that you have to make the point of payment as frictionless as possible I kind of like the idea of challenging people to participate to the point where then

they're allowed to pay and and stand and be counted on chain I think there's something really powerful there for um again I I think this goes beyond music to to potentially to other public goods but uh yeah I'm interested in exploring um how Capital allocation works when you have some kind of fun gamified gatekeeping and you have uh I mean you know we have it's so cool man I I really appreciate um I really appreciate you and and uh maybe there's like 30ish or 40ish uh people now that come to our shows and like know all the words to all of our songs and like and it's kind of incredible and and um you you know I can really start now to visualize the journey to a thousand super fans through

that and um I don't know super fans to me is a weird word I I do mean it in that in in um operationally but obviously you all are friends too you know um and so go well yeah I was just gonna uh just gonna say I I enjoy the music it's like I said side by side with other bands that I listen to but you is you also feel like you're in this David vers Goliath fight where you might be a Ticket Master Slayer in some way that's a white whale for me right on should we do another song and keep talking after that uh sure yeah as you're uh as you're unwrapping your wood flute and getting it prepared I'll just share an anecdote that I think that we were in a bar somewhere in Europe it might have been in Prague or something and uh you were

sort of talking about like how you could get everyone coordinated or aligned with a wood flute and I was feeling I was feeling antagonistic at that point I was like no you could you can't make me uh and so you started playing your wood flute and then everyone started clapping in the bar and like hollering and and like 30 seconds later I was clapping along and and like falling in line behind the flute so you're really have a gravitas to you when you when you play the flute it that was in Amsterdam I Dev connect yeah yeah yeah at Dev connect yeah and that was a that was a very special time because I was just kind of beginning um this journey in in Earnest and uh yeah it's it's fascinating how uh different sounds different tones different frequencies kind of inspire um

they're almost like a shelling point for attention or empathy in a way they all kind of summon people to share an empathy you know moment it felt like an exploit that I started I started being like no you're not going to get me to follow along the end I was clapping so uh yeah well let's go let's do it I don't know you didn't file a cve for [Music] it [Music] [Music]

[Music] oh [Music] [Laughter] [Music] d

[Music] yeah [Music] [Laughter]

[Music] d [Music] um was was that uh I know that you play video game music was that a song from a a video game uh no but I do play video game music and uh probably certainly um inspired you know here's another area where it seems like it kind of makes sense to talk about the um the way that property is shoehorned into music when I I think it's very hard to understand where music has even come from especially with uh like in in the world of pop or or rock or whatever you consider pop to

Encompass songs are like by one person in particular and it doesn't matter that they're identical to a million other songs yeah or they just flip one bit yeah yeah yeah it's and and you need it's it requires a degree of expertise to even determine what bit has been flipped yeah um I was getting distinct Legend of Zelda Vibes playing I believe it I I um I could see maybe like Lost Woods or something in there I didn't I don't think when I wrote that that I had a particular I I I don't know I'm sure I was listening to Zelda music that week or whatever but it's not uh it's not based on any particular song but of course all of all of my flute music is um is hugely inspired and I take Liberty borrowing from both uh the Irish tin

whistle tradition and from uh from the mid 90s Super Nintendo video game Corp Legend of Zelda Chrono Trigger Final Fantasy like four through nine those are like the core of the and we do cover a lot of the songs on the record there is a song from Final Fantasy 9 uh where I play tin whistle and um yeah it's it has it's somewhat similar to that different Rhythm and different Melody but it has that quality of like meeting back on the oneand at the beginning of the line that I think um maybe is a bit of even if you don't realize it maybe a bit of what you're identifying yeah I I I love to know what your what your inspiration is in playing video game music is it just we you grew up with it I kind of view video game

music or a certain segment of video game music that we've just identified as kind of like a set of traditionals of Our Generation it's um you know largely almost entirely instrumental um there's songs that that a lot of people know from having played those games or from the soundtracks having been covered in time um Chrono Trigger in particular uh have you ever played Chrono Trigger no I haven't 1995 Super Nintendo game and it's it's an interesting game and so so far is that it goes out of its way to be unoriginal it has a main character that literally never says a word the entire game it has a frog that got transformed and was going to be a prince it has like the beautiful female sidekick who's like a reluctant princess it has a robot that only wish he has

feeling it's every Trope that you've ever heard all kind of mushed into one story set amidst the most breathtaking soundtrack I mean it's worth going back and playing that game spending the 35 or 40 hours on playing that game just to listen to the incredible soundtrack and subsequently um in the early 2000s in particular I think it kind of picked up seam people decided to start really covering that music a lot um a lot of jazz and improv where uh the where [Music] like a little atune here

[Music] you have this um basic chart that can be improvised around and the whole soundtrack is kind of like that or literally half the soundtrack half the 70 tracks are probably have some quality of of uh of providing a substrate for improvisation and um and in that way way it's that that song has become that that game and a few others like it have become um kind of filled the role I think of like a a set of jazz standards uh in the like kind of nerd community and um so when we play them I

think it's in that spirit it's kind of trying to treat them like traditionals or like jazz standards um that invite improvisation invite people to um take those those charts that are familiar from the game and and kind of do interesting things over them and then return to the melody every time um Final Fantasy 4 also great like that there's a great Final Fantasy 4 session record called Celtic Moon that is uh Final Fantasy 4 done in with Celtic instrumentation and it's it is just great it's so good and that's that's not new that's from like the 90s so this has been going on with those games for kind of a while um but yeah that that that ultimately that's I think the reason that I play them is because I think they are cognizable as a as like a jazz

standard they kind of get a lot of different people to kind of turn their head and look and and feel and and kind of um you can Spotlight a new musician a fiddler let's say who doesn't even necessarily know the game but but that you know you play the chart with them a few times and kind of point where to solo and they they take off and it's great and um yeah so and that's kind of what Jazz standards do in the Jazz world too so yeah that's that's really the reason that I think we play the and yes I do love those games and I love those soundtracks but I don't play like movie soundtracks you know like there's a reason I play video game soundra and I think it's because they fill that that role of traditionals or Jazz standards for for Our Generation yeah well I'm

sure a lot of the green pill podcast audience grew up playing a lot of those video games so it's neat to hear your take on that uh should we play another one and keep going yeah we could do that if you like actually let's do um I was going to play last rain from po valley by Norman Blake but let's play a traditional proper [Music] traditional there were two sisters of the county loose oh the Wind and Rain they could only afford to buy the older one shoes cried over the Dreadful Wind and [Music] Rain they both had a love of The Miller's son oh the wind and

rain but he was fond of the Barefoot one cried over the Dreadful Wind and Rain she pushed her hand to the river to drown oh the Wind and [Applause] Rain watched her as she float down cried oh the Dreadful Wind and Rain she floated till she come to Miller's Pond oh the Wind and Rain dead on the water like a golden Swan cried over the Dreadful wind and [Music]

rain out of the wood come a fiddler fair oh the Wind and Rain saw her bones just Li in there cried oh the Dreadful Wind and [Music] Rain [Music] he made finel pegs of her long finger bones oh the Wind and Rain he made fatal pegs of her long

finger bones cried oh the Dreadful Wind and Rain he made a fle case of her long Drey hair oh the wind and rain made a fiddle case of her long Drey hair cried oh the Dreadful wind and rain made a little fiddle out of her breastbone oh the wind and [Music] rain with a sound that melted hearts of stone cried oh the Dreadful Wind and [Music] Rain [Music]

[Music] h [Music] but the only tune that fiddle would play was oh the Wind and Rain the only tune that the fiddle would play was all the Dreadful Wind and Rain

I'm wondering next if you could tell us about uh the origins of the Electronic Frontier Foundation well it's funny that song is actually a great dovetail uh that that song which is known under a few a few different names most commonly today you hear it as either the two sisters or the wind and rain but it also has threads um with some other Irish whistle Tunes in other words they share a root uh and it's actually attested in writing from uh like the mid 1600s now to the extent that most of us know that song I would I would think if if your listeners know that song they probably know it from the Grateful Dead Or from Billy strings or or maybe crooked still or Gillian Welch but um when the

Grateful Dead covered that song they as one does with an old traditional song they gave it their own energy they kind of redefined it and uh refreshed it and then for the subsequent decades other people playing it had the benefit of that song having been refreshed and um my interest in the Grateful Dead is largely with regard to their stewardship of traditional music uh not to say I don't like the Greatful Dead I'll go see a Greatful Dead cover band if they're in town um for sure but you know I think that um what they what they accomplished in terms of finding digging up um dredging the landscape for these old traditionals and renewing them and

playing them for a for their crowd for a sea of tripping hippies they're playing four year 400 year old songs is just incredible to me I think the reason that fits into that culture is because uh these traditional songs they occupy a similar place for music as uh an open source repository occupies for um uh I don't know if it's too much to say a cipher Punk adherent but any software engineer we rely so so much on on open source software not only going to GitHub and get cloning a URL right but on the practices of Open Source that we've learned over time and and that um has

caused many of us to be inspired by one another um test driven development being a good example or or devops generally the whole idea of having a team of kind of generalists where everyone is doing both Dev and Ops um I think that's uh that that's part of the same push that I think that that this word traditional means in music it means that it lives outside the intellectual property industrial complex it belongs to all of us and anyone can give it a whack if they want to MH now going back just one era further to give some context um when bluegrass comes down from the mountains people like Ralph Stanley Bill Monroe Doc Watson ma rainy what year is this uh

we're we're really talking largely about from the late 20s to the mid 50s somewhere in there this 30-year period where you have a corpus of Appalachian music that combines uh the African banjo and some of the African root songs um with the Continental European mandolin providing a rhythm uh and the fiddle uh which is mostly the integration of the fiddle is a symbol of the integration of the Corpus of of Irish and and Scottish fiddle tunes and together those become what we today call Appalachia uh and and then on the guitar you have I actually think one of the most underrated guitarists of all time is mayel Carter of the of the Carter family um and her her work on the guitar became so

defining um in part because uh the [Music] way that that alternating fifth sounds so rudimentary uh but the Carter family were one of the first to make strings into Rhythm stringed instruments substitute for drums and this is very important because when you're getting in a pickup truck or a freight train to take your music down from the mountains in search of a technological innovation in this case it's AM radio and the beginnings of uh record distribution so you're you're going into the city to to chase uh that that Innovation for distribution of your music um which of course is an inspiration for me in terms of how I apply blockchain Tech when

you're when you're doing that you're getting in a pickup truck you don't bring the drum kit you find a way that your band can keep the Rhythm without needing a drum kit uh uh and that's really what makes Bluegrass Bluegrass in many ways yeah and um now when I say Bluegrass I just want to clarify I know people like ran and giddens who I think is one of the best musicians in the world right now she calls herself Bluegrass adjacent and a lot of people would say she's old time old time is having this incredible Revival right now and uh it's awesome the old time scene is filled with some of the most punkish just cool people people who really are determined to um live in the world that they Envision uh when I say Bluegrass I include that stuff and maybe

that's wrong I think ran and giddens to me is not necessarily A Bluegrass Adas she's just ahead of her time I think that's what Bluegrass is going to be is more like what she's doing uh and especially reconnecting the roots of uh banjo music as being iconic participation of the black woman I think is just super exciting and I Ranna giddens is so awesome I would love to work with her Ranna if you happen to listen to this we got aut C together sometime um so I I include what today we call the oldtime scene which is one of my favorite traditional music scenes and also the like Pub Trad scene um where you have more um everyone playing the melody over and over uh and collaborating more on like swells and energy than on solos that that you'd

usually call that Irish or Scottish old uh Pub Trad or Trad um all of that stuff that that that whole Corpus um becomes powerful because people are taking it from the mountains into the cities and it lives outside any kind of intellectual property bounds they say this is our traditional music we've been playing this since before anybody can remember it's not mine it's not yours but we're going to cut it and it's going to sound great and we're going to distribute it now via AM radio and via the early records um and then once that gets established you start having people touring playing this music uh in this kind of revive this this also is somewhat related to the folk Revival but

it's not exactly the same thing and uh one of the most important happens one of the most important happenings then is that um people start realizing that as soon as the real toore tape recorder comes out they're going to follow some of these tours and record some of the shows this is like very early taping culture and one of the first documented tapers is Jerry Garcia who followed Bill Monroe in the late 50s and early 60s uh taping his shows trying to really figure out how to make good recordings of a lot you know what essentially was a bootleg yeah uh and then that later leads to throngs of fans taping Grateful Dead shows taping them play like the Two Sisters song I just played and um before we were recording I was saying that one

of the kids who lived on my college floor uh was like a Grateful Dead taper and would like mail them back and forth pre- internet feels like a pre- internet peer-to-peer network of music distribution Cypher Punk oh man Kevin you're saying you're telling my story for me yeah it does feel just like that right yeah yeah and so um and so this this peer-to-peer trading of of Music it feels like it's outside of the music industrial complex the record labels the centralized distribution of music and the monetization of it so is that connected to the E EF in the founding of the eff absolutely it's it's one of the key ingredients that leads to the eff what

you have is uh on an internet service that was a shell access service called the well uh the lifeblood of the well during this time period is Grateful Dead metadata just what you're describing people are people have physical cassette tapes that they can mail through snail mail but to know which tapes they want they first have to share the metadata and Index this metadata of all these shows is this like the 80s 90s 80s okay yeah the middle 80s now okay and um and at that time there starts to be a controversy because uh it's it's hard to know all the ins and outs we don't know what legal advice the band got or or you know whether their lawyers were on their side or who was even making decisions but at some point The Grateful Dead comes down firmly on the side of tapers

and says this music is not our property uh they they Buck Decades of Trends where you bands were expected to police people taping their shows it's very Visionary in a way I mean if you think about it the prevailing mindset is that that's against their own interests to do certainly in a in a zero or negative sum rivalis yeah right but but it is it is visionary and it really what it is is applying the values of traditional music into this new economy or I don't know if it's a new economy but applying it fearlessly traditional music being more like folk uh Bottoms Up local communities and it's a rebellion against the sort of I called it the music

industrial complex I don't think that's like an official term or anything but like big music in in the 90s and before Napster and before peer ofe file sharing the ra AAA was a huge deal and had a a lot of a lot of heft and was monetizing People's music through scarcity and through copyright and so this is kind of bucking that Trend yeah well I mean they they they still are and that's a whole other that that's an additional point of discussion um yeah but in terms of the the the quintessential events here to follow the thread to the eff uh what you have is the this taper culture suddenly is very embod emboldened by Grateful Dead Greatful that gave them a a section at their venues to tape from and they did uh a lot of um audio science on

figuring out where is the best place to put tapers to really get you know the best work um also during this time you have the Advent of uh you have the beginnings of the the Apple Macintosh and more and more home PC hacking is happening and the particulars are not 100% crystal clear at least not to me maybe there's some historians that can shed more light on this but at some point the uh source code for the original firmware chip on the original Macintosh gets leaked and this is somehow related to the band it might have been a a disgruntled Apple employee but one way or another the band comes up with a copy of this and the FBI visits John Perry Barlo who is uh one of

their one of their top songwriters along with Robert Hunter um you know your listeners might know Baro from uh he wrote Cassidy and uh Mex K blue L and feels like a stranger and I mean so many songs so many Grateful Dead if you know Grateful Dead you you certainly know his songs um the FBI shows up and they you know it's not obvious what the legal framework to even apply here is in the middle 80s you know this is just leaked source code and to some degree isn't it free speech I can distribute it's you know Free Speech Free Press I can distribute a copy of words if I want right and and so there's there's um a bit of a struggle that happens there and they they lawyer and um basically just continue the continue the discussions

they were already having uh but they decided to formalize them in in the form of a nonprofit organization they called it the Electronic Frontier Foundation so prior to that moment the Electronic Frontier Foundation was just part of the Grateful Dead and then John Perry Barlo uh and and others uh who are around on the well decide um that they want to kind of formalize this with some founding documents including uh the uh the document called a declaration of the independence of cyberspace which uh un excerpt is read on my record on the Barlow's jig you can hear an exer yeah and it's foundational in some ways to the blockchain movement through which we're connected and then right yeah so so then what you have uh in the immediate aftermath of that you have

this um just explosion of um philosophy and and uh activism regarding the internet happening in uh the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the Grateful Dead taper culture and um you have uh like David Cham was an active user and you have people really trying to kind of put together these ideas looking at John Perry Bar's songs and his Pros along with the early cryptographic musings of of David Chom the uh uh dining cryptographers protocol and you know that stuff eventually became ecash and then um your listeners probably know most of the rest of the story from there then you have you know the Bitcoin white paper which it stands on those shoulders well hash cash is in the middle there I haven't I've been of see if we diey was

a user on the well he's referenced a bunch of times but I can't actually find anything that he posted but I wouldn't be surprised with further research if we find that that middle eras in there too and the well again for listeners is where the metadata was traded for the tapes before they were sent out that's right that's right it was called the whole earth electronic link the well and this is pre-web it was a Shell service that you could log into and uh communicate through conferences through a command line kind of like had some BBS energy kind of a combination in terms of the interface and and the modeling between uh late bbs's and early web yeah uh it it was just remarkable the first time you told me the story how intertwined the counterculture uh associated with The Grateful Dead uh is

with the production of the internet and now I think about the eff as being foundational to protecting our rights online it's sort of interesting how that how how that's played out but uh that it makes me feel like there's something foundational about uh peer-to-peer and bottoms up uh coordination around music and arts uh being a sort of like a ground swell of spiritual energy and creative energy and and buy and for the people energy and and I think that there's there's something there's a lesson in there about supporting the Arts and treating the Arts like a public good that need to be be supported in the 21st century we no longer have the well uh but we've got Bron the well is still up you can right yeah okay well we have

the well but uh I mean like you know peer-to-peer coordination in in rallying around the Arts is what I take away from that yeah I I I think and this sounds like an exaggeration or maybe sounds crazy but I encourage your listeners to to just take a glance at any moment they want along this Continuum I think you'll find that at any of the strongest inflection points for peer-to-peer data sharing and and generally a peer-to-peer vision of the topology of the internet you're going to find traditional music everywhere you go to the beginnings of bit torent yeah people on the well the first as soon as they get a hold of bit torrent in 2002 I think it is of course their first idea is hey we could use this to trade Grateful Dead shows and and uh and other traditional music it

makes me feel like the 20th century in some ways is a aberration or a departure from what have been our Traditional Values for thousands of years in our traditional culture uh people coordinating in small cities and in small circles and it's only through industrial capitalism that we reached these economies of scale in which these large hierarchical corporations and government have come to dominate our culture and in some ways it feels like per coordination in cryptography is a return to what you would call more traditional values and more traditional culture but it's also intermingled with the internet which is web scale and so it get it gets weird from there but uh just thinking about peer-to-peer

coordination as traditional and foundational makes me feel like it gives more legitimacy to it in a way not a question but I don't know if you have any reactions that it feels like you're about to go into a song which would be great too well I think the 20th century brought us a lot of a lot of shortterm solutions um that it's hard to admit this but maybe were necessary to get Humanity through an evolutionary hump um I kind of think sometimes about like that phenomenon being a Lifeboat as we're crossing from

one land the the the Paleo human into the Internet connected human um it's an arduous difficult Journey it's a birth of a new type of thing and birth is often difficult M and um it's okay now I think we've landed now at the other Shore and it's okay to realize that the rule rules that we needed aboard the Lifeboat are not necessarily the rules that need to apply on the other Shore and that that's challenging it's it's um it it's it's tough it it hurts the ego maybe it hurts the the obviously it's

cliche to say it it challenges power structures but to the degree that power structure to the degree that laws were made for a Lifeboat it's worth examining um how to peacefully repeal them for the purposes of living on sure yeah yeah all right are we going into another song now let's do it well it was good one time everything was mighty fine the cold tipples roared day and night then things got slow for no reason that

I know the ill winds they hold hand [Music] aside the minds all closed down everybody laid around there wasn't very much left to do except stand in line to get your rations scripts on time and woman I could see that killing you and now the soft new Snows of DEC lightly

fall my cabin round I saw that last train from p Valley taking brown haired Becky Richmond [Music] bound there's something about these like Depression era mining songs that it's hard to put a finger on it but they speak to me about like what not only because of the mining metaphor of Bitcoin but also just

like I think they they speak a little bit about the challenge of uh of existing in one economy and envision envisioning another right the Lial space between the old and the [Music] new I could blame you now but I never could somehow a Minor's wife you weren't cut out to be it wasn't what you thought just some dreams that you had bought when you left home to run away

with me now the song new Snows of dece LLY fall my cabin round I saw that last train from poor Valley taken brownhair Becky Richmond bound I saw that last train from poor Valley taken brownhair Becky Richmond bound [Music]

feels natural to clap or to snap after you play as I appreciate your music so much but it's just me here so what type of punk are you cyppher punk solar Punk MCO Punk um I have often felt at home with solar Punk energy I think there's something very interesting that happens when um everyone stands to be counted uh and I I think that for me I maybe associate the tactics of solar Punk with um like I I can definitely imagine a future where I I don't mean to sound dystopian I actually am very optimistic but um imagining like the conflict over general purpose Computing like you can imagine a scenario where applying Shaw

256 becomes illegal right I mean this was actually discussed when people were trying to ban Bitcoin mining and um sort of limiting the number of times that you're allowed to apply sha 256 or whatever and and it's fun to go it's fun to examine the absurdity of that such a policy being taken uh to to a to a really hard extent like you know are you going to ban people doing math with pen and paper like at what point do you how do you even craft a law I I if indeed we have the fundamental right of expression in the form of speech and press notice in the First Amendment the word press That's a technological innovation to me it's it seems obvious to me that when you say freedom of the press you mean

freedom of general computing freedom to take this the technological innovation of the day and apply it to expression I think that what else would press mean why why use the name of a of of a important technological innovation um without further clarification if not to express exactly that so I can imagine like almost like a assault March type tactic right where where people line up in long lines to like violate the law and and perform a hash function right and like sort of demonstrate that it's that there's no if they weren't if they weren't lined up in line if it wasn't for the solar energy if they weren't um if they weren't presenting themselves before the sun to um Express via general

purpose Computing uh their their uh or participate in in the politics of their time via general purpose Computing uh no one would even know in the first place they could do it in the privacy of their homes but the tactic I think of doing it very publicly makes those laws Impossible on medium and long time scales so for that reason I think for that reason and a bunch of related you know the reasons surrounding it I have always kind of liked um solar Punk energy yeah um but lately MCO Punk is my answer yeah uh I I just adore uh the Mofi stuff um and I love what uh the energy of uh embracing um myal inspiration has done to crypto events it has it own very

evident um subculture at crypto events and of course a lot of those people the same people that show up at my shows are in the front row every time so yeah lately I've been really been feeling inspired by um this idea that uh that the um the melal networks are uh are are the the the quintessence of the internet and that all this electronic stuff built on top uh eventually kind of settles into the mycelial layer yes I mean melium and mushrooms are the highest Lindy peer-to-peer Network on planet Earth right so that that makes me feel like there's something very traditional about them that we've

escaped from and maybe we'll refind that or or reinvent that in some way but I'm I'm surprised not to hear you say the word Cipher Punk because you sing a lot about cryptography in your music but your Vibe feels more solar Punk and string instruments and and mop Punk so maybe 's a a blending of the two that can that can happen the uh the Techno and the cipher Punk that we associate with like Berlin in in Cipher Punk culture with the Colorado Bluegrass string instrument solar Punk mop Punk the the coming together of those two things could be very powerful I think a lot of people um who know me see me with a guitar in my hands a lot of the time yeah I also I love doing live Demos in front of an audience and with an IDE and

a debugger um I love writing Tex and apis and for cryptographic formatives and occasionally trying to contribute uh on the research side um so yeah I mean no doubt I I think that um I don't know I guess I kind of think that the cipher Punk thing just sort of goes without saying okay in a way it feels like if you were if you were to if you were to stand strongly in favor of gravity yeah I don't know what that would do you know what I mean like it's you you have certain forces that are just so evident with regard to yeah the way that they Inspire the growth of the internet that it's almost hard to understand if you're in favor of them or or whether they're just the environment in which you

operate yeah it's interesting to hear you say that I actually I come from a very Progressive household and some of the values around sovereignty and and um more safer Punk values were not something that we're taught in my home and so it's something that I had to come through to from being in crypto and um it's interesting to meet people who are more like a fish in water and sort of like take those for granted uh that have that have like sort of had that that traditionally but I think it's it's important to be plural and to not view these things in a dogmatic way where I am definitely so solar Punk or I'm definitely lunar Punk uh one of my previous podcast guests had an idea called Stellar Punk which is basically

like as many different punks as there are stars in the night sky and I thought that that was kind of an interesting introduction of pluralism into the whole debate about what kind of punk we yeah well that's just going to be another like you know I've got an idea for one utility to unite them all another utility it conjures the X XKCD comic about standard maybe a little bit goes yeah I mean I don't mean to I don't mean to diminish the idea maybe that Cellar Punk thing is I don't know anything about it so it's it's great to hear people trying to understand um the so social political or sociological outcroppings of of what we're doing um yeah I I think one thing that's

interesting is you don't really hear a lot of like Fiat punk you know like I I think when people come into our community um and this is a challenge that we really need to rise to and I think your podcast is doing one of the best at it is um generally there comes a point for most people that you introduce to crypto where they surrender their preconceived notion that it's going to be too complex for them to understand and they realize that actually they've been living with the complications of Fiat and extractive economics and and and finance for so long and no one human understands how the dollar works and understands how oil

markets work with regard to you know uh you know the nuances of foreign policy and all this stuff and so when you come to crypto and realize that there's actually the the rules of the system are so much simpler than the rules of the Fiat system for which you have to you you have to really understand so much about War and Peace and and and the the nuances of The Human Condition not to say those aren't worth study they definitely are but I think it's very comforting for people who come to crypto and realize that it's just way simpler than the dollar in all the ways that matter to them um and so I think that when you you say that maybe some people are more like a fishing water I think it's kind of

surprising how quickly people who come into the one of the cipher Punk umbrella scenes how how quickly they find that they are fish in water even if they have never sort of been able to understand um the the nuances of of money as it applies to their lives ever and then then suddenly they they they you know they could they could read one of the eips regarding inflation and they and pretty quickly understand something that they could that's very difficult to understand about the operations of the Federal Reserve for example mhm yeah it's interesting to put those on parody in terms of the complexity uh that you have to take in order to understand them but in one of them we're

just we've just always grown up with it and we've never questioned it yeah well now we are all right well let's play one more song and then let's wrap up from [Music] there you know what no I'm not going to play that I was going to play rollups and Rew PR but be appropriate for 2024 where rollups are are everywhere yeah I mean you know I think um one of the things and that's what that song is about it is on my record if you want to listen to it one of the things that uh rollups give us I think a real Comfort because um there's a lot of anxiety about carting around the entire blockchain

yeah it it makes you think of for me anyway when I think about running like let's say I wanted to run an archival node the anxiety that I think about that that comes to me as far as the the Ops layout to run an archival node is very um congruent with like all the stuff that I've never been able to let go of in my life emotionally and logistically and like I think that rollups like suddenly make um it make it seem like you could you let it go you could live a hobo lifestyle with only what's on your back and still have some ability to define the consensus mechanism of any transaction so so the hobo the hobo lifestyle is like statelessness uh in in some way state

state minimization maybe it might not even be minimization but State reduction yeah okay so what's in your napsack is your veral tree of all of your yeah yeah I think see that I never would have put that together without talking to you that's that's interesting yeah maybe you'll listen to that song a little differently now but I'll play the I'll play the the funny fun song here [Music] okay [Music] la

[Music] I lost my seed phrase to my

wallet I lost my seed phrase and I can't recall it well they ain't my coins cuz they ain't my keys now that phrase is lost so they're [Music] nobody's well I had some coins in nfts and I wanted them to stay mine so I made

myself a seed Fray straight from BP 39 I did not write it down for I was gripped with fear I wanted to make a brain wallet but I lacked the required gear I lost my seed phase into my wallet I lost my seed phase and I can't recall it well they ain't my coins cuz they ain't my keys now that phrase is loss of their [Music] nobody's

[Music] well I had some tea and BTC and Monero on a stick now those funds are gone because that stick has become a brick well the BTC was supposed to be for my cousin's bail and now my phrase is gone so she'll just have to stay in jail I lost my seed phrase to my wallet I lost my seed phrase and I can't recall it well they ain't my coins cuz they ain't my

keys now that phrase is lost so they're nobody that was a fun one to end on well I think that uh listeners should check out your album which they can get at Justin homes.com and there's also it's on Spotify so links to that in in the show notes and this has been a lot of fun I think I'm going to do more IRL podcasts in the future and um hope to do another episode with you as you release your next album cool I'd love that thank you so much man it's been great this was fun all right let's wrap it we just heard from Justin Holmes I'm excited about them because of the way

Justin Blends cryptography and music I'm excited about pioneers who are moving us away from hierarchical Capital allocation for artists threshold cryptography is also just pretty cool thanks for listening to the green pill. network podcast again we are building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world like like Justin homes like the musicians that he collaborates with and like the cryptographers that he collaborates with if you value our work please go collect this episode at pods. medgreen pill find all the episodes and start collecting today you may even get a shout out in an episode yourself and while you're here you might as well make an offering to our algorithmic overlords

Please Subscribe rate and review it helps build the green pill movement helps build the regen web 3 movement thanks so much for listening peace and love see you next [Music] time [Music]