Season 3 - Ep. - 12 - OpenSource Observer w/ Raymond Cheng

Transcript

[Music] welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we are building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers using crypto to bring positive some digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and we published a season of five to 10 episodes every couple months this season is impact how can we manifest the meme of impact equals profit what are the most interesting experiments and ideas in Impact tracking how can we build cryptoeconomic systems that elevate impactful Builders and how do we move from virtue signaling to cryptoeconomic proof of virtue these are the themes of green pill impact season 2024 one special thing we doing this

season is allowing you to collect this episode on chain go to pods. medgreen pill in order to collect this episode and if you want to learn more about the green pill Network visit our website at Green pill. Network where you can download the green pill book for free join the Discord and become a member of your local green pill. Network chapter Today's Show is with Raymond Chang who is one of the founders of os Observer a project that is using data to try to TI impact equal to profit in the web 3 ecosystem so um I'm very excited about this episode because when I interviewed vitalic back at the end of 2023 we talked about I asked him what is

what is the one thing that people in the web 3 ecosystem are not looking at and he said uh there's a gold mine of data about open source software and who's doing a good job of open- source software if we want to connect impact equals to profit and if we want to fund public goods then uh take a look at OS data and figure out how to derive impact metrics from that and Raymond and Carl who is his a co-founder at OS Observer uh are working on this right now so um I think it's a really exciting time to figure out how do we do impact tracking and fund public goods with respect to open source software this is also a cause that's really very close to my

heart because gitcoin when it started off our state ad mission was to grow open- Source software uh get coin sense evolved to be about all different types of public goods but we started with open source software and that's because I've been a software developer my whole life and I feel like building on top of Open Source I'm standing on the shoulders of giants so uh Raymond is my guest for this episode founder of O Observer and then Carl who is his co-founder is also working on o Observer and Carl's kind of hitting double duty this episode he is my co-host for the episode and he's also on the OS Observer team so that met made for an especially fruitful conversation uh let me just read you Raymond's bio real quick and then we'll get into the

episode raymen Chang is a software engineer entrepreneur research scientist open source contributor and adjunct professor who has made contributions in a wide range of areas in distributed systems and security including data privacy secure blockchains and scalable Network systems he has a PHD in computer science from University of Washington and graduated from MIT with degrees in physics electrical engineering and computer science he co-founded Oasis labs and kba labs and is currently working on hypers searz and Os Observer I wanted to have him on this episode because iHeart open source software and Os Observer is going to let us fund open source software all right and now I give you Raymond and Carl of os Observer

enjoy coordination hey Carl hey Raymond hello hey guys excited to talk about open source Observer on today's green pill Raymond do you want to tell us what that is all right yeah open source Observer is a free Analytics tool that we're building to help data scientists uh do any sorts of impact analysis on open source software that they want so um our goal goal as a platform is to try to lower the friction uh to make it as easy as possible for you know any 16-year-old anywhere around the world to pop in and start doing some kind of data science to understand you know what is the impact of Open Source uh on any particular ecosystem uh we started this partly because we realized you know

we're not going to be able to come up with an answer purely on our own because impact looks different it's objective depending on what ecosystem so turning this into a platform to empower others is uh what we're trying to do yeah so um could you spell out a little bit more about the world that you're trying to create by making this platform available in democratizing it so that people have access to it um are you all servicing retroactive public goods funding uh in order to make the badge holders decisions more databased as opposed to just like popularity based um tell us more about the impact that you're trying to have with with this tool yeah 100% so in in the world of Open Source uh software like I said impact looks slightly different depending on the

ecosystem that you're in and even within an ecosystem everybody's going to Define impact slightly differently um so retop pgf is something that we're we're very interested in um and I would love to see a world where you know badge holders are starting to vote on their value systems as opposed to you know voting on projects right so instead of taking a look at individual projects and how much they deserve think about like what are the things that we should be funding or is it like onchain stuff or offchain stuff is it education is it developer tooling is it growth is it you know stability like is it responsiveness what is it that we care about um and then hopefully uh the the platform and the tools and the analytics can just help augment your ability to make those um so uh that's from a retr pgf like uh you

know application perspective in the short term that's 100% what we want to be able to empower um our goal is to be able to Aggregate and curate um and clean data from all sorts of different different places right so there's already a ton of tools that do onchain analytics um there are tools that help you understand like individual developer activity and things like that and and of course like in the security space s bombs are you know the the latest craze so everybody's you know there's a lot of different tools to help you understand the dependency tree and things like that but what our goal is is to try to bring uh all these data sources into a common platform under a Common Language

tied together by project so for any particular open source project I can see you know all their funding flows ideally if it's something like itcoin or something retop pgf um be able to see you know all the repos where the developers are are having activity um where they sit in the software supply chain like that's how we think about dependencies is where they sit in this you know supply chain and value chain all the way out to like users like the reason why we care about onchain analytics is because you know there are very few indust indes where I can see with 100% transparency all the users that are interacting with this application and I can basically derive any user analytics That I Want from this onchain data so if I go from funding to developer activity to software supply

chain all the way out to the users that I'm touching I have this incredibly broad view of the entire value chain and if we just put that in a data warehouse um you know we want this to be the people's data warehouse is kind of what we've been saying um enable anybody to be able to come in and have their own kind of like you know ability to wait different metrics or analyze metrics in different ways or analyze this network in different ways so that they can generate their own scores of you know at the end of the day you know people are gonna have different definitions of like what is an important project um so making that as easy as possible um and as frictionless as possible is is what we're trying to do one of the things that was inspirational

for for us in pursuing this project was the idea that retra active funding primarily led by optimism was becoming a thing in in like there's been a variety of efforts in the past in in science and open source software and other domains to say that we should have things that resemble impact markets but the problem has always been that there hasn't been meaningful funding which is going into creating a demand signal for projects to build towards and ideally receive some of that funding so it was the combination of there being this new funding source in the form of retroactive public goods funding and a desire to fund open source projects where in theory all the things that you might need in order to identify which

products are more active which ones could benefit from more funding which ones are having the most Downstream impact uh was was there it was available it just needed to be cleaned and put into one place so it was really I think like a fortunate event that we were working together and at the same time looking for a good use case for impact markets and retroactive public goods funding impact equals profit became such a big meme uh learning from other impact markets has definitely been like a huge inspiration I think we we definitely kept an eye towards things like carbon markets and we wanted to be able to learn from them while avoiding some of those some of the downfalls so you know there's a reason why measurement plays such an important role in any impact Market because if you can't measure it

then you can't sell it by defin um but we didn't want to be this opaque you know entity that was you know measuring um uh impact uh in in our own custom proprietary ways um because if people lose you know if we do it poorly and people lose faith in that um they could lose faith in the entire market right that's why in the carbon markets there's all these you know different uh uh issues around whether or not you know this particular credit represents something credible or not I think part of what we want to do is be able to empower the community to be able to organically come up with a Vari a plethora of different types of impact measurements and different types of inch analyses so that you know there can be

something incredibly neutral that is the data um and then be able to provide a platform and a mechanism for other people to do that analysis on top and think about you know what what impact act like how do I actually and how do I how do I sell it you both worked together on the hypers seerz project prior to co-founding OS Observer I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the path to hypers seerz and what you learned there and and how that led to o Observer yeah 100% um uh speaks a little bit towards you know our idea of wanting to bring uh this vision of having generalized impact markets via hypers Sears and I know this is something that you've talked about you know quite a bit on your on your podcast

um but I was exceptionally excited about this idea of creating you know a generalized carbon Market a generalized impact Market um to be able to fund all sorts of things that today are you know notoriously underfunded um I was just was telling Carl earlier today um you know I came into this life uh uh in like a kind of a triple whammy of things that are underfunded I was like um an academic uh doing computer science research on open source software in privacy preserving systems um and you know between science open source and and privacy related things all things that I think you know most people would argue are pretty important to society are are things that are pretty underfunded and

Ill served by existing incentive structures in in Capital Market um and so part of what brought me to this space was just pragmatic uh which is you know I was curious about different types of incentives to be able to empower people like myself or or or myself to be able to work on this kind of um and uh you know there's a whole bunch of really important work that's happening you know in in Government funding and Public Funding and and in nonprofits um but what drew me particularly to to hypers Sears theidea IDE of hypers Sears was um this idea that we can have you know powerful voluntary uh uh Capital markets around funding impact um and so uh we started working on this together um like Hoka

Carl and I at at protocol Labs um uh we quickly identified that you know you can't Sol you can't boil the ocean all at once and there's all sorts of different problems that this could be applied to um but one really stood out to me partly because I'm a technologist and I'm biased and I use you know open source software every day but partly because it's so measurable um open source software is the underpinning of you know I would argue the entire world not just crypto I mean there were recent studies that have shown that 99% of companies use open source somewhere in their stack and for technology companies you know uh recent Studies have shown that like upwards of 76% of lines of

code that's actually ship to production is code that's just sitting in your dependency tree that you just got for free um and so you could argue that open source is kind of the foundation of the entire economy um open source is the reason why you know we uh our Collective human productivity is so much higher now than it was you know a few decades ago um and so in a space where it's so measurable where all of the data that I just describing earlier is generally something you can find in the public um in a in a in a place where the value to society is you know so obvious we were hoping that open source software could be really you know a good first use case

um for hypers Sears um because it's it's such an important part of the C of the ecosystem um so that's kind of how we started moving down you know um thinking about more about Open Source and we were playing around with a lot of different tools um to try to understand how to think about impact and and as I mentioned earlier of course there are a lot of like you know Tools around any particular vertical um but uh pragmatically the way that we started was just trying to build something that could aggregate all all of it together um and be able to do these you know cross cutting analyses so thinking about you know high value users thinking about what's leading them to be retained thinking about the ethicacy of these

Grant programs um and and what kind of developer activity that's leading to um that's how we got a started uh uh building out this tooling partly as a way to just value and measure you know impact or value and measure hypers certs that are coming out of um these gitcoin rounds um and that's that's what led us on this journey one of the things that is really unique and I just want to underscore here is that for crypto ecosystems funding open source is Mission critical there isn't really it's not like a second or third order need it's not viewed as Corporate social responsibility ility or something that you do after you've had a profitable year it's actually critical to these ecosystems having any long-term value

and so the fact that there's a very very clear aligned incentives around the demand side I think gives these markets much more legitimacy you don't need to convince any layer 2 or ecosystem why it's important to fund open source they know it and actually their survival depends on being able to do that well yeah for sure um and I think that the work that you're doing with OS Observer feels like it's so critical to achieving this meme of impact equals profit if we can't measure the impact then how do we know what profitable token rewards to drop on people and um you know 2015 to 2017 I actually worked in a data warehousing group and analytics group and one of the the sort of truisms that

we used was that something like 80% of the time working with a new data source is just cleaning the data and making sure that it's validated and good before you can even start to do any fancy statistics or impact tracking or stuff on top of so I think it's really interesting to see that mirrored an ous observer where you're going to have this data warehouse that has all of the different data just pre- cleaned for people so that they can measure the impact that different open source repositories are having so um yeah just putting those things together it feels like this is a tool really aimed at connecting impact equals profit with emphasis on the equal sign because we can now measure it so can manage it any comments on that yeah 100% I mean I

think uh it sounds easy like this data already exists like why why can't it just like you know why can't people just use it and there's just so much engineering that actually goes into um doing these things at scale and um we take a very product oriented approach to this so we think about it from like what are the different types of users that want to consume this and how do they want to consume it and how do we make it for each one of those personas how do we make it as much of a frictionless playground experience as possible um so you know part of it is releasing an API um to integrate into other sites um you know a lot of a lot of services do things like that um but part of it is I I think we want to take it a you know

another step further which is um we want to expose the raw you know data warehouse to and the clean data um for anybody that wants to come in with a jupyter notebook to just start hacking around and running whatever visualizations they want um the other area is like we've been building you know the entire front end in a no code tool um and part of the motivation of that is uh we we actually want you know these things to be forkable right so um everything that we're doing is open source open data open infrastructure um so we want to be able to expose as much of our infrastructure as possible to other people to be able to fork and experiment with and if they're unhappy with our front end or for whatever

reason want to change something um they should be able to do that as well uh and so you know there's a lot of tools already that um are written as open source but it's it's like painfully difficult to have to either scrape in API or you know enumerate all the data or um or be able to or have to index everything yourself and and pay for these gigantic data pipelines because we're talking about you know many terabytes of data already probably going to be more in in the not too distant future um and so being able to do this in a way such that we can all kind of like cost share um the cost of running this thing and not require everybody that wants to do some kind of analytics

to to to deploy and run their own instance of this is part of what motivates us is to you know make it again you know back to that original vision of making it possible for anybody in the world to quickly get started uh is what we want to be able to do looking at it now I think that we we began almost naively assuming that there was going to be one or two impact metrics that might just appear and be things that an ecosystem would want to fund more of and at a very high level you can say sure any ecosystem is going to want more developers they're going to want to have more users they're going to want to drive demand for Block space Etc but I think immediately once you start getting into the types of projects that they work with the types of developers that

are active in that Community what the supply chain looks like you realize that there's going to be many many very domain specific and Niche type of requirements for how to measure impact and how to track what products are contributing the most to that and so the idea that we would be able to come up with one metric or even a handful of metrics that would be useful to all of those ecosystems um I think is just hopelessly naive um maybe some will emerge but I think that uh that will only come by having thousands of smart people trying to to look at it and apply it to many different contexts so as Ry was saying the part that we're really excited about is getting more people to start being being able to hit the ground running and not have to spend months cleaning the data and set up their own

servers but actually being able to go in and very quickly start getting answers to questions they have I wonder if you can paint a more of a picture of what the world looks like if you're maximally successful so um you know in five or 10 years what does open source Observer look like and how does it support the rest of the three impact public goods regen yeah um so in the short term we just want to make this uh the best you know product experience that we possibly can so if you know if anyone is thinking about how do I think about impact how do I want to spin up a new analysis on this new ecosystem or this new project or something like that um uh this is like

we want to be the best playground for people to be able to do that kind of analysis um and you know the first thing that people think of when they come to um doing impact analysis uh and sharing those results um in the long term though you know I think understanding impact is is important but definitely just a piece of the bigger picture um like you mentioned earlier you know Carl and I got into this um with hypers search first because we we recognize that this was an important part but just one piece of the bigger puzzle of creating a sustainable funding um ecosystem for public goods and so you know if we can hook into other types of platforms and make sure that they are

best suited um to make the best you know funding allocations possible for their ecosystems whether it's you know systems like gitcoin or Octon or retrop pgf or or whatever um that's you know in the medium term something that we definitely want to do is to make sure that we Empower these communities to um make the best data informed decisions that they can um and then in in the long run you know I think you've done a fantastic job on this podcast season highlighting all the interest work in Impact equals profit I think um in the future it should be as easy as saying uh you know I'm coming in I have some dollars um there's some outcome some desirable outcome that I want to fund towards

whether it's more growth or in this ecosystem or more security um or uh you know more reliability or whatever it is and there should be enough Tooling in place such that you know you don't have to go in and uh uh be ble to assess an individual project on whether or not that's the project I want to make it bet on you know I can just fund the outcomes that I care about and um be able to put you know money where my mouth is um but that's that's longterm what we're I think what we're all trying to build towards um and we want we want to make sure it's as informed as possible um to to making sure we can actually make you know correlated bets on uh where think where we want the future to go just building on that I think that we've

already started to see pockets of people come together and say if there's a way that someone is looking to spend money and they're looking for data and insights to inform how better to do that then they start knowing where to look and they start having a sense of of what to measure and in doing so they're kind of starting to stack together these different funding mechanisms and understand here's a product that's getting funding from a bunch of different sources and then here's one which is receiving much more than it needs and it's taking a portion of that and distributing it to other projects that it thinks are impa as these systems are starting to build on top of each other and and compose I think that there's going to be what what I'm starting to see already and hoping

to see more of is is people that are going to be able to come and and make sense of that data and actually be um you know ready to you know when a new fun comes in and says you know we're looking to deploy this Capital we don't know what to fund there's going to be a number of people that'll be able to respond to that and say okay I I have some ideas or I have some ways of looking at it and you can almost have their be a set of analysts that are that that are competing for allocating that funding in the best possible way yeah well this is one of the things I think is so neat about impact season but specifically OS Observer is that it's not just Theory right these things are starting to happen both because of optimism and getcoin and gith and all of

the other capital allocators in the space needing impact evaluation moving away from these things just being a popularity contest or a kesian beauty cont test is what an economist would would call it to being more more data driven and um a couple years ago that that did that wasn't true it was all kind of theory and and no action and so now we have both the theory and the action and it's so interesting that you're already starting to see the pockets of customers for something like OS Observer it makes me feel like the time the time is now for for this to happen 100% I I totally think the time is now I think um but it's not just putting things into practice I think

like as a community we have a real test in front of us which is um we have through these mechanisms we have to make more impact um than than the alternative right like one of the things that was really Stark and startling to me when I was looking into it was just like how how these things compare to like traditional open source funding um so if you take a look at you know a company like Google they'll maybe you know deploy few million dollars a year towards like corporate memberships Foundation um something like the Linux Foundation has on the order of hundreds of millions of dollars a year that they deploy towards um mostly towards projects but they support like the biggest names that are out there right

like the Linux Foundation these days is humongous it's not just a Linux kernel but it's things like kubernetes and pytorch and these like really critical pieces of infrastructure um that are household names like around the world and we have this test in front of us now which is not only do we need to put these ideas into practice um we have to show that we are better Capital allocators than the old way of doing things right otherwise like what's the point of any of this and we have to be building the next generation of Open Source software that is you know where we're going to push things into the future um because as you mentioned like with we're actually putting real money behind this now something like optimism

retr pgf uh you know at current price it's like just under $100 million that's pretty close to the operating budgets of these like really big mainstream you know open source organizations and we have to show that this decentralized datadriven um Community um can build things of high value to the rest of the world um and so I think like it's exceptionally exciting from that perspective which is like you know we're actually able to pour gas onto the fire and and be able to test these things live but um as a community I think it's a real test point to see you know whether or not we can do better it

definitely does feel like the moment is now I think if one or two years goes by and there's really nothing to show for it you'll have Miss the opportunity uh I I also think that if you if you do it really well right now then the impact will be something that even traditional web two companies will start paying attention to I I hope we can make that case yeah I would love to you know I think that's something that we've been noodling on um is how do we make a retr pgf that spans to a broader audience because you know if you think about something like Dev tooling um the dev tooling that you know the crypto Community uses compared to what a traditional web developer uses um there's a lot of overlap um and I think like we can start to through these programs potentially start to broaden

the reach of not just the audience but also who's affected who who's eligible for payouts um and who can be impacted by this work um so I think that would be really cool is to start to see us um bridging into other communi and seeing how we can you know uh amplify and make win-win situations so if I'm a listener and I'm interested in getting involved with OS Observer how can I check out what you're doing get my hands on the data start uh contributing or or just following what's going on with those yeah um we are increasingly launching and releasing more and making more stuff open to the public uh we've always been you know you can always join our Discord

and see our live chatter you can always like follow what we're doing on GitHub everything has always you know been done in open source ethos um but you know up until now the the data has been you know a work in progress It's like it's been a big engineering effort to basically put these pipelines in place um we're hoping you know soon this quarter to be launching an API service to make it easy for people to integrate um and call you know these uh call Open Source Observer as an API service to be able to integrate the data into whatever visualization or you know user interface that uh uh you might have so um working with different partners to kind of surface that data in different ways I think um is something that you can uh

look forward to we'll be releasing some docs around how to do that um similarly you know I think we're we're now have this Kuba data Collective that we're starting to form which is uh which you can check out on our website and and join as well we're trying to curate you know a active involved excited community of impact data scientists um to uh take a look at this data and we'll be sharing you know um uh data warehouse access with folks uh in this community to be able to do arbitrary you know historical and longitudinal um analyses in in whichever way that they want and so uh that's something that we'll we'll um be ramping up over the course of this this

quarter um we'll be at eth Denver um um with a community event uh you can check out on our um check out on our website for more details uh if you want to join this data Collective and start running some of these experiments with us um and uh yeah I mean you know we're we're trying to keep everything as as uh open source as we as we can so um definitely follow us on you know our our Twitter and our mailing list uh to to keep up to updates on how to contribute um and and our documentation you know while a work in progress uh continually gets better by the day yeah one one thing that's difficult that that'll add here is that we are trying to create this new job category that doesn't exist right

now so you have data scientists over here that might have been you know working in adtech or in like a hedge fund or doing sports analytics and then on the other hand you have Regens and public goods lovers and people that want to fund more public goods and what we've seen is there isn't a huge amount of intersect intersection between between those those two communities and the data people they're not really into the the regen thing and the regen people are um not data people and so we're trying to actually Bridge those two communities and create like some activity at that intersection where uh maybe many cases it'll be people that are kind of curious about this learning how to uh do some data science work and then separately trying to nerd snipe some people who might be working in adtech or might be

working in Academia and give them some really cool and Powerful data sets that can be used and form millions of dollars in funding so the hope is that a year from now there are many more people that can do this job of an impact data scientist right now uh there aren't very many and we're looking to grow that for sure and I think that youall are sort of leading from the front uh what did Jonas call you on one of our podcasts you called you uh our favorite Region's favorite regen and I think it's because you're publishing so many databased insights about retr pgf Carl so um you know not only are you envisioning this new category of data science I think you're sort of sort of living it by uh by doing it out out in public and um would encourage the audience to check

out your your Twitter account uh and keep an eye out for for new blog posts coming for you it's like Christmas morning whenever uh I see a new databased blog post uh from you Carl thank you um we're hoping that there'll be many more in the future and I think that the greatest compliment would be someone forking our work and putting it out there and doing it 10 times better so that's what we're we're hoping to do and yeah as Ray said really hoping that you know in in a few weeks we're going to have people that will have access to the data warehouse and be able to play around and do some really cool things uh one thing to note um is that the you know we're we're also sponsoring the the shelling Point event um so on Saturday uh I think that's March 3D we'll be

co-hosting event with getcoin in Impact Plus in Denver so people are in town they should check that out and register um is there anything that I didn't ask that you want to say maybe we'll start with you Raymond and maybe I could just pitch the same question to Carl even though you're my co-host but you're also an OS Observer founder you're you're playing both sides here is there anything I didn't ask that you want to say the thing that I I I really want to double down on is trying to convince more people show more people that this isn't just a a nice to have that funding your public goods is really a I think as you call it Kevin like a long-term competitive Advantage it's not something that is should be an afterthought it's not something that we uh would

prioritize after other things in many respects of our life the most important decisions we make are where we want to be and who we want to spend time with and that's very much a function of the public goods that that we that we value together um and so I I hope that there can be a small piece that we play in trying to bring useful relevant pluralistic data into that conversation I don't think it's the only thing that matters but I I think it's a it's been for far too long a missing part of the of the of the funding process thanks Carl same question to you Raymond anything I didn't ask that you want to say yeah I think I mean to build on Carl um what you were saying I really like that I

feel like you know in Tech in general you know regardless of you're in web 3 or something else um I think we're hitting on a nerve with uh wanting to be able to support open source software both on the supply and demand on the supply side you know you hear all the time like developers who would love to be able to quit their you know corporate jobs and be able to just like build open source software and make impact and do good stuff for the world and be able to make a living doing it like you hear that all the time and there's people that succeed at it and there's people that that that don't um and if if all we can do is like you know reduce some of

that friction and increase the pool of people that are capable of making that jump um to be able to support support their living but also you know be able to build public goods and uh uh you know impact the world that way like that would be an incredible result you know I spoke earlier about the demand side which is huge um open sources and everything um and I think there's a real opportunity here you know to prove out these mechanisms um because we have a really interesting uh unique set of circumstances and point in time to be able to test this out you know with Ral money and Rural ecosystems um but if we can do that really well there's this My

Hope and my vision and my my excitement comes from the fact that this can be so much bigger um than just supporting sorry just supporting you know crypto ecosystems that's already like enormously huge impact um but it could be many orders of magnitude even bigger than that if we can um show that this is a good model uh for you know any devel V ER to toble to be able to make impact and make a living um this would be incredibly cool so um yeah we're in a really unique point in time in our lives and I'm excited to see where this goes yeah I just want to RI off that a little bit further because I think that there's something something very powerful about you know for us what we I think both love about this is that um you know Ry

you just want to build stuff that is valuable for people you want to you want to code you want to create things that are going to have a lot of impact on the people use them in my case I just really enjoy working with fun data sets and trying to find meaning from it and um you know visualizing in a way that conveys that meaning and these are just kind of two of the many jobs that are to be done in an economy and in a functioning society and I hope that we can create a world where there's just much more alignment between what people find themselves doing and what they're able to be compensated for and earn a living from and I know it might sound like like naive and idealistic but I think that right now there is so much friction that is put between us being

able to do the things that we want and in many cases there's a lot of impact and value that those are created but there isn't a good way to um pay your bills and pay your mortgage and send your kids to school and even if we start with with software and data science and crypto funding its own public goods I I don't think any of us are here because we want to end there I think we want it to go as broad as possible because ultimately you know the way that you should measure the health of a society or any network is the you know the quality of life um both economically but in many other dimensions that people have there yeah for sure I think that's a beautiful beautiful place to end it well Raymond uh Carl thanks so much for helping me wrap up green pill season and

congrats on your excellent work on OS Observer if you're listening to the show right now check out the links in the show notes to get a link to Raymond and Carl's Twitter and then also the OS Observer resources thanks again guys thanks for having me see you all righty you just heard from R Chang I'm very excited about OS Observer because I love open source software and I love rewarding open source software Developers for building open source software when you are using the internet you are using open source software whether you know it or not we are standing on the shoulders of giants thank you for listening to the green pill. network podcast again we are building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive some digital systems to the world like my guests today Raymond

and my co-host Carl working on OS Observer if you value our work you can collect this episode on chain pods. medgreen pill and if you like this episode please remember to like share and subscribe this is how the algorithmic overlords know that green pilling is an important thing and that you want to spread this movement outward so before you close your podcast player please remember to like rate and subscribe this episode on your favorite podcast Network thanks again thanks for listening to impact season and I will see you in a couple months for the next season that we that we do [Music] enjoy