Scaling Ethereum With Based Rollups | mteam

Transcript

I think there's there's a few things that people often get wrong about ethereum and the first is that we don't have like a coordinated Vision right in Northstar and that's just wrong Justin is leading a lot of discharge around Bas drups and now the beam chain but there's there's a coordinated vision for what ethereum wants to do and that is the RO up Center growth map it really hasn't changed that much hey everyone this episode is brought to you by Unis swap Labs who is launching the largest bug Bounty program in the entire history of crypto it's a $15.5 million program this is aiming to be the most rigorously reviewed codebase ever deployed to ethereum so if you want more eligibility on the scope rewards payouts Etc just click the link in the bottom of the show notes to tell them that I sent you

you'll be hearing all about Unis swap Labs later in the program hey everyone quick disclaimer before we get into today's episode nothing said on bell curve is a recommendation to buy or sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not Financial advice our guest and I May hold positions in the companies funds or projects discussed all right everyone welcome back to another episode of B curve today I'm joined by Matthew AKA M team of SP Labs Matthew welcome nice to be on hey man this is great um I've got a lot of stuff that I want to chat to you about um mostly based rollups which I feel like you're becoming increasingly

the face of on Twitter so congratulations about that and thank you and you know may maybe before we even get there I'm going to reverse the order here and I actually want to get your your 10,000 foot view on the State of the Union around ethereum so feel like we talked about this a little bit when I saw you in Bangkok but um and and I listen to the to the chat that you did on Bank list which I thought you addressed this in in a very interesting way but you know before we get into it because we're going to get into the weeds of the different flavors of bass rollups that exist and how you see the the future of bass rollups playing out on ethereum talk to me about the current state of the union how are you feeling about the rollup Centric road map the

current Vibes around ethereum give me your thoughts sure I think there's there's a few things that people often get wrong about ethereum and the first is that we don't have like a coordinated Vision right in North Star and that's just wrong like you can talk to ethereum researchers and they almost always agree Justin is leading a lot of discharge around Bas drups and now the beam chain but there's there's a coordinated vision for what ethereum wants to do and that is the RO Center growth map it really hasn't changed that much um now what people really start to get wrong is around value gr because the idea of value of gr is something that only ethereum has to deal with like every other blockchain has even worse value of gr thesis than ethereum uh like salana

um totally will post memes of Soul just being used as spam prevention and people uh make fun of AUM for valueable grow that doesn't make any sense to me um I think the the rollup Centric road map has like a gaping hole in the middle like how how do we all make money and people tend to focus on this way more than they do on like the actual point of Ro Central C map which is parallel Innovation at scale right how do we reuse one layer one and you know extend it to lots of layer I think um I think part of the confusion around these these kind of rollup teams is all mimic right it's really not that hard to move

between layer twos that's just of things you can use a cross it takes 2 seconds um that's insane but there is a confusion uh for retail users there's even for us like I just hate using Bridges it it requires me to open up another website and then I'm you know clicking a couple buttons even if it's only you know one or two transactions um it is just a pain because of the kind of mental strain and so these are things that are like real problems that we need to fix but they are not nearly as bad as um as as kind of the technical things because I think we are figuring this out so there's been a few interop related panels that went on that Devcon where people talked about the kind of interop between existing layer I believe that

all of these interop discussions have focused around asyncronous composability and I don't think that's good enough and I think we can still do synchronous composability I've not given up yet and so that's part of what I want to talk about today with Bas offs but also I want to just make it clear that like all of the problems that Sal of people our app developers are bringing up are all things that are being solved without base Royals like you don't need any new technology to solve the problems we're encountering today the the biggest one that I think that you know the other kind of pushes don't solve is bio and the question of how do we all make money um and that's what I address at bank Summit like I think that lobs are nice

the burn is is also nice but they're just not anywhere near the scale of like a multi-billion dollar asset all right so let me ask you about that first point that you just made which is the North Star and this is a very interesting debate from my perspective because you've got one group that says hey there's clearly no Northstar and people are building in many different directions and it feels very discordant on the other hand you have a group of people that say there's a clear Northstar all you got to do is talk to anyone at the ethereum foundation or anyone who's building an client team or Etc and there's a lot of consensus so you know if you are to articulate the north star of ethereum how' you do that I think it hasn't changed and it's still the rollup Center gra map the goal

is to improve the layer one um as if there were no users on layer one and only activity on layer twos only users on activity on layer twos there's a ton of things that we can do to get there but these are all kind of like path things not North Star things um so native rollups based rollups interop between layer twos account abstraction um or you know using an account across multiple chains these are all things that are that are on the way to getting there but but the the goal is to give layer twos the ability to express whatever they want um on top of a single layer one this has not changed I don't know why uh this is so confusing to people the rollup Centric road map means that we don't care about layer one

activity or users anymore and we want to accelerate the adoption and Innovation on layer twos as much as possible so the merge was a great example of this uh vip4 I4 was a even better example I guess where we dramatically brought down costs for for users on layer 2 uh but did not dramatically affect like the congestion on layer one at least that wasn't the goal so I think all of the all of the planned upgrades for ethereum are kind of centered around this vision is making the layer one the best layer one possible for layer twos now the place this North Star starts to break down is that not everyone agrees what what what kind of layer toos we should support like if they use al8 you know should we still try to make

their lives better should we support them um on Twitter and some people disagree on what exactly the layer one should do so some people say only settlement um some people add on da base rollups add on sequencing there's just this kind of ongoing discussion about what is important to have kind of logically centralized onto the layer one that people can innovate off of and what is better to to leave entirely up to layer two's you know at the expense of more fragmentation so are you a Believer then in the sense that right what we're trading off here is this is kind of the B2B versus B2B B2B versus b2c vision of ethereum which

is we used to have ethereum layer one as this um as this sort of economic zone where a lot of users would actually directly interact with defi products or whatever it is and now those we're going to migrate those users up to layer twos and ethereum is going to transition to this B2B chain that Services layer twos and in exchange for that what you get is the you know you unlock a whole bunch of users that you otherwise might not have gotten on the layer two side you get to export eth and sort of the um liquidity Network effects monetary premium whatever you want to call of eth the asset more than pays for the loss in execution fees is that roughly the way that you think about things yeah I really like what uh what to and Mer will say to this which is that the the

execution uh fees have like a an upper bound right there's only so much kind of capacity so toy will say there's like um some amount of money to to run a validator every month right and this is kind of your upper bound your margin for execution fees and we can expect this to like dramatically increase but overall execution just really isn't that expensive and with costs are going down um and quite frankly like this is not the the kind of value gr that you want to hear for you know hundred billion dollar asset right um and perhaps it will end up that the so I guess then the question is how do we get the most monetary premium is it by maintaining activity on ler one requiring all users to pay gas in Native token right in e or

do we try to export that to layer twos and the problem with exporting it is that there's no way to enforce that LS actually contribute to the monetary premium at all they could use their own gas token they could you know use the MDA right so you you can't enforce anything lers L toos do that's the whole point um but this is not like an uneducated bet this is a very calculated bet people sat down and said um the the gas you know upper Bound for value acral is quite low if we were just to talk about a single chain activity but the um and you know burning tokens contributes to monetary premium because these deflationary aspects people have to buy the token to spend it right but

when you export it to layer twos you create opportunities for these these businesses to thrive based on the network effects of an asset so if you are a layer two and you choose to use eth then you should choose to use eth not because of some like debt to layer one but rather because eth is the best right and because ethereum is providing a valuable service in the form of sequencing or da or whatever and so people will talk about like ethereum being second best like that's not our goal at all we want to be the best at da like better than all the all da providers we want to be the best at sequencing um better than you know whatever shed sequencer rotating around Robin um set you want to come up with and the best money the best token and I don't think this is like at all out of

the question it's much too early to to claim that ethereum will not be able to reach that scale because we literally have a road map to getting there it's called The Beam chain for for consensus there's similar proposals in the works for da I can't show too much about that on execution we have ways to to Really scale up okay so this I want to I want to get to this point around value acral because this is where I see the based rollup Vision at least in the way that you've described it maybe solving this trade-off of exporting users and what you're getting in return is the the quity network effects for E the asset so maybe this is a good point to introduce I know probably if you're a listener of belur you have heard me talk about Bas rollups before but can you just give us

an overview of what base rollups are and where they slot into this question of value of Gru for eth and how they help balance some of these trade-offs that we're talking about sure so first the definition of is in order um I think the easiest way to understand a base Dr up is just by looking at the sequencing aspect of things so there's uh rollups have to do kind of three important things execution da and the third is sequencing um execution and da in this case you can use whatever you want um but for that sequencing you need to use ethereum and when I say ethereum I don't mean ethereum validators I mean the same sequencing as ethereum which happens to be meth boost for the most part um and so in practice this means that you delegate sequencing rights for your

Layer Two to a validator to ethereum layer one validator then delegate those sequencing rights to a builder through the through that boost auction um and the eventual effects of this are that the winner of the mebus auction is also the winner um of the you know the layer to auction because it's just the same auction and so the what we call the shared sequencing when there's the same sequencer for multiple domains and then the little extra piece that we add on top is called Atomic settlement or Atomic block proposals that allow the layer one block to include a layer two Block it's really like a commitment to a layer two block but you think about it about being the layer two block and so if the layer one block doesn't get

proposed because there's a liveness failure or it gets reor out of the chain or something like that or you know fails to be finalized for some reason then the same thing happens to the layer two and because of these properties we enable something called synchronous composability between the layer one and Layer Two which means in the simplest terms you can do cross chain contract calls and do everything you can do on the layer one directly with a layer two seamlessly and back and forth so you know this is this is such a paradigm shift that people don't understand yet if you have a token on layer one you have the the you know Sky token whatever and you want to use this on Layer Two instead of Bridging the sky token and creating like a synthetic version or wrapped version on Layer Two you can just call the you know

balance um request on layer one on the layer one token and so there's no need to to move state between domains anymore because you can seamlessly communicate between different domains um and the nicest thing about this is that it doesn't require like rewriting your code so you can literally just copy and paste from layer one Deploy on Layer Two it is a based rollup and um if it is synchronously composable then all of your code will work the exact same way you don't have to like do deal with message passing um you don't have to get your code re audited or Rewritten and this is so important because we've spent eight years of blockchain velopment working on synchronously composable development so every smart contract

written um and every kind of developer resource all the developer tooling is built around this like synchronously composable model and when we introduce asynchronous composability the developer complexity like shoots up 10 times this is one reason why Bridges often get hacked right if Bridges were synchronously composable it' be so much easier to reason about but because there's this element of asynchronicity even if it's you know very fast message passing it's still so much more complicated to reason about bres end up getting hacked all right so I've got a whole bunch of questions there but before we get into it I want to help us understand we were talking a little bit at Devcon about the four different flavors um you know that you saw of based sequencing so or base rollups in general so give us a

sense of what are the different design possibilities that are that are out there now that we've got the high level idea sure so there's what I just described is like what Bas rollups are at the foundation um but there's all sorts of different teams that are taking this like core idea and like forking it and twisting it into their own different flavors I think um to start there's Justin's original idea which is just called Bas sequencing on uh on eth research and it's a type of Bas sequencing that we now call Total Anarchy because there's no uh there's no rules to Define who is the sequencer ahead of time the sequencer is just you know is basically defined after the fact so you don't know who the squencer was until they've finalized the block

onchain um and that has the unfortunate downside that you can't do pre- confirmations and if you can't do pre- confirmations then that is a worse user experience but it's not the end of the world and honestly total Anarchy is a really elegant clean design um Tao uses it um and if you're smart about the implementation it can it can work pretty well uh except that you also lose all your M to to layer one and you know people don't like that um and so vanilla base sequencing is kind of the next iteration from the lime chain people and the the fundamental idea with vanilla base sequencing is to add sequencer election uh beforehand instead of after the fact and you use this to capture some meev not a ton um and ultimately the goal is to offer Pere

confirmations so you have a look ahead of Bas for up sequencers just like you do on layer one and then from there people have you know fored out into multiple different directions there are Spire my company and gwith kind of a subsidiary of Tao um who are building these these rups with complex sequence election mechanisms and so instead of just saying always delegate to layer one or always do it um in some external way then you kind of build an auction that favors the layer one but doesn't like unilaterally give them sequencing rights and that essentially gives you the ability to run an auction um among layer one proposers allowing them to bid on you

know the right to propose a block which you know if you're the beneficiary of that auction means you can retain some MV and so both of these designs are are rather complex and I don't want to get into them here but there are a few other ideas as well so rise is working on a very high performant based rollup um and their kind of sequence or election is kind of still to be determined but uh it's rather interesting they have some some talks about that and then Rogue is another one who are doing kind of the total Anarchy route um but they're they're they're very interesting product it's it's like a it's like a Bitcoin purist Bas roll up um and there's also nether mind surge who are doing something very similar to Tao puffer is also doing something so mucho and so

there's these kind of all of these branches of basal up development um I believe that spire and gwith are on the most correct track um in terms of like capturing M for applications but also you know getting that synchronous composability as well we'll see how it plays out I want to get a sense of Matthew the the different trade-off Spectrum here so here's the way that I kind of think about these different flavors or designs that you just described on the two polls here I think there's the there's the value of Cru here which is there's what we're talking about is some sort of combinatorial me type auction where me gets split in between the L1 versus l2s and apps right so it's kind of like what is the appropriate balance there and then I think there's a performance angle

here as well but correct me if I'm wrong because you know Tao my understanding is that there's a there's you just inherit the 12C block times of uh ethereum right which is probably slightly less desirable from a from a rollup standpoint but then obviously there are there are other base rollups that are pushing the boundary there is that roughly the right way to think about the trade-offs in terms of the different designs and flavors out there or help me understand that yeah it's not it's not a smooth gradient though so there's like a certain point where you step function into we can have much shorter than 12C block times um and there's also a certain point where you um start to retain near the limit of me that can be retained by like a controlling your sequencing and auctioning that um and so yeah just correct there's like these

kind of two spectrums um the other two that you should think about are liveness so like what is the liveness trust assumptions of your rollup is it the same as ethereum is it worse than ethereum um and sensor of resistance which is are you inheriting the sensor of resistance properties of ethereum or something less than that or maybe even a superet of that if you are willing to sacrifice liveness as well so I have a question for you in in the event that let's say there was some sort of I mean ethereum has really been designed uh you know to avoid these sorts of things as opposed to Tender or something like that a different type of consensus mechanism but let's let's say there were some sort of liveness failure on the L1 does the L2 have the option to step in and this these entire these

systems rely on based uh based confir or based pre- comps right from um or pre- confirmations from the from the L1 would there be the ability for the L2 to kind of step in and say hey we're having some difficulties with the with the L1 we're just going to step in and provide uh pre-ms until the L1 is back online type thing as a some sort of fail safe yes it's possible to implement like that um like I think the espresso people will get really mad about uh when people get this wrong but basically there is a uh when you delegate sequencing it doesn't have to be a permanent thing like there's you don't need to lock in your sequencing forever you can always transition to a fallback um that fallback could just be a centralized

signature it could be you're moving from an aution to Total Anarchy which is what a lot of BS do today um and I think the with something like that where there's a layer one less failure you'd mostly be screwed like you're not going to be able to produce blocks U but you can still give out pre-confirmation the question is there's like moving back from that to base sequencing like from these centralized PR confirmations to base sequencing is going to be really complicated um and if that fail safe mechanism isn't designed well then you're going to you're going to get in a lot of trouble um but in most cases we don't actually have to worry about that because etherum L one has like 100% up time 100% livess And so the kind of the risk uh this tail risk of layer one

having a liveness problem is is rather low compared to um if you're using like another consensus mechanism EXC and I I know you mentioned that you couldn't really get into some of the specifics here but anything that you can tell me about what the auction actually looks like that splits that uh makes it a little bit more competitive but slightly favors the L1 versus the L2 like I would love to just get a sense of roughly how you're thinking about the design and maybe just a couple examples of how that could work theoretically in practice sure so here's a here's a kind of a thought experiment if you created like a purely permissionless auction um but gave the the uh kind of the ability to participate to anyone so it's completely permissionless then the winner of this

auction would be whoever can get the most value out of what they purchase right because they they can bid more um that's kind of like generally true there's some you know some details that you have to worry about but um let's just pretend it's permissionless and whoever can derive the most I will win um now the the the kind of Deb bet that we're making is that sequencing with a layer one shared sequencing with a layer one will be the most valuable way to use a layer two Block in any case so it'll be a better product than just using a centralized isolated sequencer or even a shared sequencer between multiple layer twos the B is that layer one will be the most valuable to compose with and that means that in many cases the layer one will win that auction anyway because

it'll just be able to outbid all of the shed sequencers and all the centralized sequencers uh because they can derive more economic value from composing with a one versus composing with another another domain so the the auction design doesn't even have to be that special to get this property that we want which is that the layer one usually wins because the layer one just has an advantage anyway because of all those Network effects but the the things do get complicated if you um if you want to maintain kind of consistency From perspective of layer one and so what spire and and winth do is sell what we call tickets in a permissionless auction to um you to anyone right so anyone can participate

but actually using these tickets can only be done by a layer one proposer and this means that the only like anyone can win the auction and hold the tickets but to use the tickets and derive any economic value from them uh you either have to sell them to someone who can use them directly or use them directly Yourself by by burning them to BR of V so the auction design is is kind of carefully done so that the layer one you know should win the auction because they derive the most value but also um so that they are the only ones who can use those tickets and that kind of favors the lay one again but also means that the kind of consistent user experience of using like base pre confirmations is

the same and you don't have this kind of like switching between layer one and Layer Two which very well might happen if you have like a you know a massive volatility event and layer one is exceptionally valuable but then there's an over charge with Layer Two so you do that and then you go back to layer one that's just that's just messy um and so the this kind of the auction design thesis is giving the layer one proposer an advantage in this auction now espresso and their based espresso project do another interesting thing which is that they give the layer one proposer a last look so they run the auction and then there's like a winning bid been decided by off auction and then the lir Wonder broser has the option to take that bid or let the um let the you

know the winner of the auction actually take it and so they can um they can always get in at the at the best possible price um and so that gives them an advantage I don't believe it's um you know that that design will end up um necessarily reflecting like all of the properties that they want because of the they don't have Atomic block proposals anyway um now the other thing I I think it's useful to mention here is that the the auction doesn't have to be the only way to distribute sequencing rights like you could distribute 99% of sequencing rights through an auction and then the last 1% you could just give to your friends uh or give to solo stickers right um um get anything you want with

with these tickets it's like you have the sovereignty to distribute those um an auction is the way best way if you want to capture Meb but if you are you have other kind of priorities like Cal resistance liveness you want to like you know look good on l2b um then you might consider donating your tokens to to a public go or to solo stickers to kind of get those properties as well okay so I got one more question for you on the just the mechanics here how do you price pre-ms so one of the challenges here that I would guess is that we're talking about the difference between an expost and an X anti- auction like when I'm thinking about the Mev boost type auction that ends up getting run is you're almost trying to extend time right to get as much of a look as

you possibly can at all the different transactions that are coming in and then you place your bid you win it or you lose it and and then everything gets executed but in in the instance of pre-ms I think you'd have to switch that right you would actually have to price the pre comps before the block ends up getting built so my guess is that you'd have to have some sort of sopis at entity that would do that and I would guess also that you can't price quite as accurately so there would be some sort of loss of welfare right am I roughly getting that right or how does the pricing work for pre-s it depends yeah so there's there's a lot of different pre-con teams that are work on different things here I'll tell you what Justin Justin's kind of idea is um the the goal

the goal kind the main priority is to um you have a kind of a two-sided Marketplace here you have proposers who want one thing which is to make as much money as possible for their stickers and you have users who have want two things the first is like speed they want faster pre-confirmation um and the second is cost but you don't know exactly where the the user kind of preference is along that curve of of speed and cost um and so what the um preon teams have kind of uh aligned on is this concept of a Gateway which represents the proposer proposer delegates to the Gateway um and this Gateway is like a sophisticated entity kind of like a relay is maybe a good analogy here and then what the Gateway can do is run whatever you know

option mechanism they want internally using tees or whatever to uh to price prec confirmations on behalf of the proposer and then if they're using te tees can of like verify um that they are not cheating the proposer or not cheating the user so it's kind of a trusted third party here um I don't think that design is going to be very effective without uh without proposers um and and users kind of having their own representative so if the Gateway is representing users and proposers then te is help with like verifiability but they don't help with sensor resistance so if that uh if that Gateway wanted to give little Edge to the proposers then they could or little Edge to the users then

they could and then users would kind of flock to the Gateway that offers that that little Edge um and so I think a having a kind of a multi- repesentative market makes a little bit more sense where a Gateway represents per osers and then a RPC or router represents users um who can kind of almost hold gateways at Ransom with her order flow um to you know to keep those gateways honest and but yeah this is kind of a is complicated area because it depends on it it depends very much on what type of preon confirmation you're doing you could be doing like a independent subst start auction which is like all the transactions you do them independently and then just kind of figure out how to actually all all the

differences at the end of the b or you could do dependent selflock auctions which is very similar to what every layer to offs today with their own pre confirmations where they build like a full block with all of the transactions ordered and executed every um you know every X number of seconds and then batch these to to n times x to ethereum at n * X right so there's like a a batch includes many many blocks um and this this kind of changes based on the block time but the point is that the layer twos are building blocks before and just preconiran-food.com aggregate all these

blocks together into a single ethereum block and post us to ethereum later and so the uh all of these preon designs have very different kind of pricing properties because with your dependent subside auctions you're selling your access to some of your state earlier you're also like effectively reducing your block time and you could get kind of subslot granularity Arbitrage which you know could end up making you even more money now unfortunately the research shows that independent subot auctions are bad for proposers in terms of me that doesn't mean that they are necessarily bad for proposers net net right because users very well could be willing to pay for uh for pre-

confirmations uh maybe AI agents will pay I don't know but you you could end up kind of resolving that difference in loss of MB for independent subset auctions with more tips mat I actually ask you to just do a little bit of a what you say Subs slot auction just Define what that is and what's the difference between independent versus dependent so a subslot auction is kind of selling access to State at a lower granularity than the slot itself so ethereum 12 seconds if you're doing any auction at a level below that that's subot auction um independent would mean that each of these auctions are in taking place independently of each other and so if you get a 100 pre-confirmation requests maybe you're running a 100 different auctions to price each of these um kind

of independently so maybe you have um you chunk them by groups of state or whatever you could there's there's ways to get around some of the complexity here but basically all of these Subs auctions are um you're you're giving them access to the state at the end of the block before the the the end of the slot right so the the state access is like independent got it and what am I correct in assuming here that the dominant use case would just be maybe to start with something like a top of Block versus rest of block option auction here is that roughly the way yeah so the the independent property lets you sell like different pieces of state or different um bits of ordering

in the final block but the point of a dependent slops out auction is to sell um the you know a state state access um that doesn't extend to the end of the slot so you maybe use sell State access for um for now or the next one second instead of the block whatever it will be in 12 seconds and so at some point between you know this 1 second um sub slot kind of Chunk and the end of the slot prices could change and you could do another dependent slop auction for that state again and so that you're buying a different thing as an arbitrager as a user um but the the properties end up being rather different for the proposer but there's a lot more research to kind of figure out what

those actually are all right everyone listen up like I said at the top of the episode Unis swap Labs is rolling out the red carpet and launching a $15.5 million bug bounty this is the largest bug bounty in the entire history of crypto to anyone that can find a critical bug with the Unis swap B4 protocol this bug Bounty aims to make it the most rigorously reviewed code base ever deployed to ethereum now the Unis swap name is basically synonimous with security $2.4 trillion in cumulative volume has passed through Unis swap V2 and V3 without a single hack so Unis swap V4 is dedicated to bringing that same level of security and transparency to the V4 protocol so if you want more information or eligibility or scope or

Rewards or payout or any of that good stuff there is a link in the bottom of the show notes highly recommend that you stop listening right now go to the show notes click the link head over and tell them that I sent you start earing money today all right I want to zoom back out here for a second and talk about the value proposition here from the standpoint of users of l2s but also the l2s themselves so you know when we're talking about something like um an auction that slightly favors l one proposers versus the L2 I'm just curious you know I'm sure you've talked to many different teams who are investigating you know launching a base rollup versus launching like an OP stack or arbitrum orbit type rollup and I would just be curious you know when I hear that I

guess from the standpoint of an L2 I'm thinking well you know why would I be entering an auction here for my block space that favors you know an L1 that I'm not going to have access to those revenues so you know talk me through what it's like having conversations with some of these um you know maybe app developers that are thinking about launching a base rollup versus just a sort of vanilla arbitrum orbit rollup or something like that so usually the the conversations are not necessarily like oback is the alternative it's rather like building it out on another monolithic Layer Two or general purpose Layer Two or layer one sure and so if the alternative is base then a base rope will capture more me because Bas doesn't give you any any M

um and will also capture way more congestion fees so the you know the top apps on base make Z from the congestion fees that they generate it all goes to coinbase and so the the alternative with a base Dr up is that you can capture 100% of con fees and then some you know double digit percentage of me of course we don't know what that is now the sell for these applications is that the the loss that you you're kind of giving up an me is worth it because your congestion fees will increase as your state becomes more valuable um and your uh kind of overall MV will increase because you're able to do Arbitrage Atomic Arbitrage with more domains so if you can just do Arbitrage internally

then you then you you know that's that's valuable um but let's say you can capture 100% of that that might be you know significantly less than 80% of Arbitrage with more domains so including ethereum um and so the the the pitch goes like this it's like the you're you're getting less me as a percentage but the actual numbers are very likely dramatically more um and compared to Alternatives like launching on a general purpose layer 2 that is kind of the only other way to get this synchronously composability property at scale um you're not getting any congestion vs you're not getting any MV and so it's like almost always a strictly better

option um the reason we don't often see like OB stack framed as a competitor is because OPAC just does not offer the composability that a lot of our apps need and so if you're a lending protocol and you want to use tokens on layer one creating a synthetic wrapped version of these assets on layer 2 is a pain um and doing things like liquidations using layer one liquidity it's just impossible you can't do that um and so the the alternative for these applications is either launching on L one or launching on a layer two but I think the Bas R up is like the um the obviously better option because you're you know you're not getting scammed out of your congestion at NB yeah so was it surprising I mean I

guess when I looked at some of the def5 1.0 Giants I kind of squinted at them and thought maybe some sort of based rollup construction would make a lot of sense for them so something like Unis swap would actually make quite a bit of sense to me or something like a right maybe a is actually an even better example where the liquidity Hub is still on L1 they have a bunch of different deployment ments across different l2s that bear some amount of bridging risk or even different chains like I saw Al moving over to salana and so there's a challenge there from a governance standpoint there's a bridge risk standpoint whatever it is and so I guess based based um you know if OB was based that wouldn't solve the salana challenge but I I am so curious I mean when you look at who any apps in particular that

this makes a lot of sense for like who is the ideal customer for a based Construction yeah I think you're SP on with like lar 1 DFI um letting protocols to make a ton of sense I think the the question for some of these big apps is like what are we actually what's our actual priority with launching on layer tws is it is it really scale because in most cases it's not it's it's actually distribution it's like we recognize that there's a lot of retail users on Arbitron so we want to deploy there to just have a larger market um and I think the the of applications that actually launch on a layer two or their own Layer Two for scale is rather limited um most of them want to customize things that you can't

do on a layer two um or rather have like a you know want to give off some kind of impression that they're an infoplay because it booster token valuation um or or some you know somehow changes like the public perception of the vertical now this this complicates things quite a bit because like we've seen evidence of top defi protocols launching app chains right unan a soon um and I think that this demonstrates the the idea that there's like large apps it makes sense to launch an app chain just because they have the money to kind of support that complexity but for smaller applications it's a much harder sell because like all of the offchain infrastructure is not cheap um it's not too expensive but it

is thousands of dollars every month um and the there's a bunch of like other kind of onchain services that you you would need to like recreate on an app chain for some applications oracles is probably the best example right you might be paying millions of dollars to deploy oracles on your app chain and I actually think Bas drups are an interesting solution to this problem because all of the layer chos can reuse the onchain infra that takes place and exists on layer one so chain L oracles are already deployed on layer one so if you'd like to use those on a layer two you can just make a contract call like there's no change to if you were actually on layer one so I think resolves a lot of the onchain infra questions but for yeah for a lot of

layer 1 D protocols it's not so much about scale and customization as it is about distribution and reaching more users and so kind of the the cost benefit analysis is is a little bit different there I want to zoom out here and get a sense from you about how you think this rollup Centric road map if that is the the Northstar for ethereum ends up playing out because the way that I've at least been thinking about it is there are a couple of different potential futures for how rups could end up existing on ethereum and I sort of bucketed bucketed them into three different groups there is the the status quo which and I mean this not as a shot at all at different Frameworks that exist but it looks a little wild gardy to me in the sense that you know you

have uh very separate execution environments that don't interoperate with one another and I think that's partially because there hasn't been enough prioritization which is changing in ethereum today but still you kind of have a you know a base user is probably pretty sticky to base versus an arbitrum user which is pretty sticky to arbitrum and I'm not sure you know it's very easy to inter operate between the two of them so that's why I say it looks a little W gardy um and although you do get great interoperability in between different op stack uh you know chains and arbit orbit chains Etc so you kind of maybe end up with two or three dominant Frameworks that are great interoperability in between one another and then maybe some sort of across uh powered system in between the different rollup Frameworks so that's one potential future then

maybe there's another potential future which is a maybe shared sequencer plus AG layer type thing which is the interoperability in between rollups is not provided by the L1 but it's instead provided by thirdparty infrastructure providers like the espressos of the world and the polygons potentially where you have some sort of I think ZK plays a pretty big part in this future where um maybe proving costs end up getting driven down the latency is also driven down and it's very cheap so everything gets proved in either an offchain or different very heterogeneous execution environments everything gets batched and then submitted down to the L1 with the help of something like a shared sequencer right so maybe that's uh future two and then Future Three is the base rollup future that you're

describing here and to be honest maybe to editorialize my own opinion I think that the base rollup future is probably the best future for both users and ethereum as well U my concern is just that you know you'd be starting from basically you know if there was a race you've already got the incumbents you know 200 200 meters out a 500 meter dash um and you kind of are starting from square one here so how how would you you know if we're talk if we're having this conversation five years out what would you think about the most likely scenario for how um this could all play out sure so I think number one is almost impossible like there's there's a ton of

social pressure to um to avoid these wild garden L ches um when vitalic starts pushing something then it moves pretty quickly I think two which is Shar plus AAR is is kind of directionally correct but will have like a cold star problem like there are no Shard sequencers today with kind of any meaningful adoption and can a future three which is the base roll up and I would add add in ag layer here because I think that is useful for base sequencing too um the only difference to the shared sequencing vision is that the shared sequencer is ethereum and one of the participants in the Shar sequence like domain these networks is ethereum Blair one and so

first of all like having the credible neutrality of the ethereum sequenc here is absolutely crucial um to kind of the coordination like um I can't imagine optimism using the arbitrum sh sequencer um and I can't imagine the other way around either but if there was an ethereum sequencer that everyone could agree had the technical properties that we need then I think that it would be much much easier to like have social coordination around that based sequencer ethereum um and then on the uh on the the second side around kind of you know losing the race disruption um I want to just highlight here that the most drastic difference between the sh sequencer and base sequencer vision is not necessarily neutrality although Justin does like that but it's rather

that ethereum layer one is already the base sequencer Network and so um you know you can check the chain there is more TV L on ethereum than every Layer Two combined there's more volume on ethereum than you know most layer twos there is more activity like just by um kind of the types of transactions a lot of uh apps like lending Protocols are still are primarily used on their one and quite frankly there's a massive Network effect built around the token of layer one around eth um and there's a whole bunch of offchain infrastructure things too like you know the ethereum layer one is a part of every wallet it's already integrated into every wallet

things like this that are network effect for layer one that other layer twos don't have and so if you want to argue that base rups are losing then you also have to you know by definition take the position that the layer one is losing to layer twos and the numbers just don't support that um the the kind of data clearly shows that ethereum is still the dominant chain in the ethereum ecosystem um and it's not layer TW and so you know that that's changing but I believe in the the next few months we'll have really good base Roll-Ups that start to come online um and that will expand access to that ethereum L one network effect kind of stop the the bleeding um

I don't know if that kind of makes sense as a case for the the third feature yeah it does it absolutely does um and I think that probably like even if you look at I don't know there's a there's a term here around I've been using which is service model which is I'm not sure what the right is but I think there's an interesting conversation to be had around this modular construction is probably the the end game for for different chains where you specialize in different like there's a DA and consensus layer versus different execution layers and all of that stuff and ZK is a big part of that that future I think it's an interesting conversation to have about what are the different services that the L1 is responsible for providing to its layer tws or the different chains that are

building on top of it and I think this was Olay from Delta who made this analogy which I really like which is I think you also maybe slowly ping him on base rollups a lot of what they're doing is maybe similar to the Bas rollup Vision but it is you know if you look at something like a base rollup versus a classical just optimistic rollup today the the base rollup gets a lot of benefits from the ethereum L1 uh but it's also much more difficult to rip out in general I would say and so I I've never really been a Believer right of this like l2s are going to launch their own l1s thing because frankly I just think the benefits that l2s get from the L1 today is far outweighs the whatever costs like settlement costs that they're paying but it's not totally impossible for me to

see a future where once those the uh cost benefit analysis shifts a little bit for l2s like maybe a decade into the future or something it would be theoretically possible for them to do which is oras if you look at something like a Bas rollup it's just much more difficult to do that right like the core functionality is so dependent on L1 so yeah I think the service model or what what are the different um services that the L1 provides to its L2 ecosystem is an interesting conversation to have for sure yeah one one thing I'll add here is that there's like a timeline of what ethereum L one wants to offer and we this is like Justin's um I think one of Justin's strongest points is that like ethereum will be the best on every kind

of module in the modular pup um and you know it's it's not like like I think we figured out a way to kind of isolate these things really well in ethereum so we have like the execution layer the consensus layer and now the The Blob layer the data layer and each of these things can be innovated on in parallel um and we will have like dramatically better uh solutions to these problems because we like we've been working on research for Ada da before any of the all da teams and I think we've come to a a pretty strong um point for like here's a way to get sufficient da for like all of the world's Financial activity um if you want to use LDA for else sure but we will always have enough capacity um so I

just want to kind of break down this timeline so first we had selement for rollups this is kind of the most basic like adding a little bit of security for your fraud brof you're kind of banking on sens of resistance for fraud brof but uh ultimately you're kind of um using the the the layer one for this kind of settlement property which is kind of ambiguous but that's beside the point because then we added da which is the um a very useful valuable service that layer one provide um and blobs are really have excellent properties for any uh ethereum layer to because they um they are kind of atomically uh tied to layer one blocks and so you don't have to worry about your your da reor being separately from your settlement um

that's even better for baseops and then I think now we're talking about sequencing which is we can use the layer one to export the best sequencing in the world um and give that to layer 2 it's going to be you know probably this year next year is kind of big um service that we have learned how to offer in the best way possible and then in the future I think we'll actually offer execution from L one directly it's called native rollups or native execution and the concept is that we you know we've done all the ZK research the ethereum foundation invests millions and millions of dollars into this every year and we figured out how to do the best ZK uh and so we just put this directly in layer one we have an OP code that not only does does CK

verification but actually does the proving for a rollup and so this we can talk about the technical details but this gets you some really amazing properties which is that you don't even need realtime proving to do synchronous composability you can have you know tens of seconds of proving time um if you delay State rout and we also offer like execution that is exceptionally scalable and exceptionally verifiable and so like you know there's there's other teams that are working on this but if you want to bet against ethereum then you you do have to bet against you know the team that shi the merge um and has you know built the first turn complete blockchain so I think it's um it's kind of incredible to me that people are still kind of thinking about other alternative modules um because ethereum does have a

road map to like beating every one of these over time but that's the that's the thing is it's very pth dependent and things like ethereum blobs you can switch away from quite easily settlement even easier to switch away from they sequencing a little bit more difficult because um of that that switch requires breaking applications it's not backwards compatible um and then eventually you very well may have execution and switching away from execution will just basically break everything and so the over time like I think we've almost done this the opposite than what we would have liked where we started with like the least sticky services and we're moving towards the most sticky services on this timeline and uh unfortunately that look looks really bad there's a lot

of public perception of like the L can leave right um and I think that is that unfortunate but it will change very quickly as basic wiing starts to like show itself as like a better product and you know native execution becomes like you know by far the cheapest way to get uh the kind of properties that the rups actually want for their execution so I think the RO up temp for GR map was like so uh so genius at its time because the the pitch is like we can let bips use whatever modules they want wink wink but we'll actually just ship those to ethereum in the next 5 years um and and rebundle all of these Services once we're ready but in the meantime we're not going to lose to salana because we can you know we can do things like Mega eth and um kind of slot in other

providers before it's ready uh but then we we knew all along that we're going to um to beat these in the long term all right so I want to get your perspective on to realize this rollup Centric road map what should the L1 be prioritizing so this is where I want to get into your discussion around being beam chain there was also a really great back and forth in between Martin kopelman and Justin Drake on an Unchained podcast that I would love to get you reaction to but this was the this was kind let me see if I can zoom in here a little bit but this is a this was the slide that Justin Drake presented at beam chain here where he kind of slotted the uhing but the consensus layer road map into three different different buckets

there's the block production bucket there's staking and there's cryptography and he slotted between p 0 to P2 right so on the p 0 for Block production there's censorship resistance which is fossil or some some implementation of inclusion lists there's uh isolated valador um so execution auctions and then there's faster slots so he put on here for example four seconds right that's just I'm not sure where that number is coming from but you know just a shorter shorter slot times uh then on the staking road map P Zer is smarter isance so State cap something like that this is some um some flavor of MBI uh smaller validators so uh one e orbit staking and then the P2 is faster finality so three slot uh you know finality guarantees and then

cryptography there's chain snark ification as you know P0 Quantum security is P1 and then strong Randomness as P2 and so I would love to get your your read overall on beam chain here and the decision to focus on the consensus layer and then what do you think about these priorities are these roughly right uh in order to execute what you're describing with your base Ro of yeah I think I think the the interesting thing about Bas SWS is we don't need any changes to layer one um they they were perfectly fine today but they come with like a lot of Band-Aids there are ways to improve layer one the most important is is faster finality and shorter slot times uh which are both not as prioritized as I would like them to be

um but any changes to layer one that make the layer one more resilient um and kind of Improv the the Practical properties of consensus on the layer one simultaneously help layer CH because they're kind of reing that consensus and so something like Max CB which is I don't think it's on here but um will be in ethereum soon will kind of modify the bandwidth requirements of ethereum and increase the kind of available capacity for blobs so this has like the you know this is good for baseops is because uh if we want to use blobs that reduces our cost by a um and so yeah I mean overall my my perspective on beam chain is that it makes a ton of sense I think the communication around it was uh was poor

because a lot of the you know the actual substance of beam chain is not new like there's almost nothing new in the kind of beam chain proposals all things that we've been discussing over the past few years um it is just a mimetic umbrella to kind of understand and talk about these things um and kind of re rejuvenate community support for the consensus layer um and also the timeline right so five years to ship some of these things is absolutely absurd as you would tell you I think the the kind of um the way that I would reframe this and Justin did a great job of explaining this at his spank Summit talk which is that the the beam chain development on the beam chain can happen in parallel to incremental improvements to the

consensus layer and so we can keep doing once a year um for the next five years and then at that fiveyear Mark do a lot of these kind of P2 things that have um that are maybe you know not top priority but would have you know essentially make the beam chain something that we can all survive forever because it's just that good um and so yeah poor communication but overall like the direction is is is is good in terms of priorities I would love to see um you of less conservative estimates from Justin on slot times and finality like I think just having personal conversations with him he's a lot more bullish on um on timelines and kind the technical properties of beam

chain but he doesn't want to uh kind of overestimate and under deliver although I think we could use some of that right now um and so the the actual like the the priorities here um like I said the I think the most important thing to to focus on is how can we make lar better I said this very beginning of the podcast um well Center Road map is all about rollups and so if we end up prioritizing things that are good for layer one execution in the short term I think that will detract from uh kind of the the building the best rollups that we get and Justin did a great job of like prioritizing things that are really good for Roll-Ups um and I want to see I want

to see more of that now one interesting thing about B chain is it's only a third of the ethereum broad there's still the data layer and still the execution layer and these have almost more to do with base rollups because data is you know a huge cost thing for rollups execution is key for eventually doing native execution native rollups which are great for base rollups and then also the um keeping the layer one network effect alive and having the capacity to facilitate kind of composability and coordination between multiple base rups and so yeah I mean it's hard to evaluate like the full plan while only taking a snapshot of a third of it uh but I think the most important thing for Bas RS on here is just FAS finality in shorter

slot times um yeah we'll see how the rest of the rap ends up looking of course yeah so I I so on the on the timeline stuff I am personally split on that I think that five years sound like a five years sounds like a really long time on the other hand I know that Justin was being very conservative with those estimates and I also am understanding of the fact that ethereum is in a very different position than almost all of its competitors right and it takes a long time just look at Bitcoin and how alifi that layer is and how long things take so I'm I'm more sympathetic on the timeline than I think a lot of others were I do think on the prioritization side of things I get fossil and inclusion lists feel extremely important I agree with you

that I think if I had to push back a little bit on how I saw those priority shaking out is if we want you know to make things easier for especially base Roll-Ups if that's the vision that we're pointing towards and just roll up interoperability in general it feels like something like single slot finality or time to finality should be we should kind of reverse those two uh priority sets for Block production and uh I forget what the other one was but it's I I feel like that might be a slightly more important thing because just having um lower slot times and a shorter time to finality actually helps so much with INR operability on for l2s like I could even imagine something like a I don't know if you have ever really seriously thought about something like the concept

of Base rollups on salana but I think you would need much less surrounding infrastructure because this lot times are so much slower or so much faster right so what do you think about I mean I'm just curious in terms of like say more about the prioritization there or you know I guess any response to that yeah yeah I mean the technical prioritization is sometimes less important than like the social prioritization that's you know one reason we're not building on salana is that they're not very friendly to people who want to build rups and like ethereum has built an entire culture and like offchain Community around sworting like there's no layer to beat on salana um and I think that this is a this is an

important part of it on the technical side though I think yes today Bas RS would be much better on Sala than they would be on ethereum just like same for Monet same for you could build a layer three on a centralized layer to and it'd be incredible if it was a base Ro but the technical properties here are are also you know you have to think about them practically and you have to put them in the context of what are you really offering so if you're doing a Bas on Sala you're offering synchronous composability with Salena layer one which is like like Sala layer one offers that with itself and so the actual like Improvement the commercial Improvement is that customizability um and you know I don't know I still don't know how important that customization and specialization is

um but it's a very different value prop for ethereum because it's not just sickly composable with ethereum it's also way more scale that than ethereum layer one in a main net evm can provide and so it's uh I guess it's less so of like a technical thing and more of a practical thing it's like ethereum is also much much larger than Solana when it comes to n effects and the and just one like kind of anecdote is that the available pool of developers that are familiar with evm is vastly vastly greater than those who are familiar with svm and so just from a you know multiple practical perspectives I think it makes more sense to focus on ethereum in the short term um but that

doesn't mean that like son or Monet Bas would be any less like technically Sor all right so this is a part of the conversation that I want to get your perspective on salana in general it's funny you actually just mentioned the network effects so this question actually comes from uh Brad guy but when I tweeted out that you and I were going to be recording a podcast his first question was at what point and what metrics would he deem that being you as salana Network effect to Eclipse ethereums so how do you measure the network effects here yeah so measuring Network effect is is kind of difficult because the like it's the it's not only what are the network effects now but also like what's

the derivative of the network effects how are they changing um I think I would need to see similar kind of tvl numbers or at least tvl growth uh on sauna than I do on ethereum and that's important just because you know that that uh going to make point that state is actually valuable um and so synchronously composing with it is is important um but it's not only like these onchain things so we could talk about all the all the metrics that like def F on the shows those are all important um I would like to see salana getting there but what I care about even more is like the the developer education the developer tooling and the the offchain infrastructure around salana um and so if we can see the the kind

of offchain infrastructure like I did my bank Sumit presentation had some slides about this about the the research community and developer Community that's built up around ethereum there's all sorts of Open Source Code all of these public goods kind of organizations um I'd like to see these built built up around Sal that's a much harder thing to measure though it's kind of subjective um and so I'd say kind of the the one metric that I like to look at is like developers um full-time developers in an ecosystem and once salana eclipses ethereum BL one then I would be all more open to kind of comparing those Network effects um on on other metrics right now the one place that this you know this does get a little bit more complicated

is salana kind of multiplies its Network effects because it has so much more scale than ethereum layer one and so even if you had a tenth of network effects of ethereum on chain um then if you had 100 times the scale it still might be you know definitely worth it to to inst it because you can do kind of different uses of these metrics um and so it's not only like the um the tvl and not only like the volume but also how does the the scale of the network um take advantage of that has tvl and volume um and kind of activity as well so and the final thing I'll mention is that like the number one thing for me will be when there is no longer a practical short-term ethereum path to

out competing salana on scale so you know we we can talk about the you know son block times being shorter than ethereum that's great uh but the Sona block times are slower than arrum so if we if our only priority was the the block time then we would build base DRS on Dr but obviously it's not and so um it's things like this where the network effects themselves of salana are you can put numbers on these but until you can uh make the case that e that Sona will maintain these Network effects and grow these Network effects um then I think you um you're in a tough spot and I also don't think s will be able to do that until they do mCP which I believe is a few years out what do you think about uh multiple

concurrent proposers in general and how for you does that change the base roll of architecture you we did an episode with Anatoli and Max Resnick as well recently just discussing mCP and it seems like I can't tell I even you know I asked them right at the end of that episode about how optimistic they were and on what timeline and obviously anat has a slightly different position in salana than Max resnic does in ethereum but I got the sense that this is still a ways away salana still has to execute on fire dancer and there's quite a bit of focus there and then ethereum I have less of a great understanding frankly about how much Max Resnik is winning his make eth L1 great again internal push and so I

guess from your perspective it would be very interesting to get this like what are your thoughts on multiple concurrent proposers in general and how if at all does this change the Dynamics that we've been talking about this episode sure so um I think it will be great for salana uh I would be super excited about Sal's Tech if they end up shipping this um the reason it's so good for baseops on ethereum or salana is because it opens it vastly increases the number of leaders that you can run an auction over and so if there's in fossil as proposed there are um There are 16 inclusion lists you know Comm committee members and there's one like proposer leader and so this is

17 um people who have the ability to force transactions versus one and so that means you can run an auction over 177 people per slot instead of just one person and if the look ahead stays roughly the same at 32 slots then that's 32 time 17 auction participants versus just 32 auction participants and so that dramatically changes the um the the properties of that auction it can you know bring tons of efficiency um and it it's even more likely that like a highly reputable kind of trusted um node operator will be present in the in the look Ahad and so if you really want to get your pre-confirmation from coinbase then um MCD will make it much more

likely that coinbase will be building a block soon um now I don't believe in braid uh as a technical design um I don't believe it'll be included in ethereum I think has some good properties and some very bad ones that's a discussion for another time um I think fossil is a is you know technically mCP and and I believe fossil will um will provide a lot of the benefits that braid kind of promises um you know while being somewhat more complex can you just can you just actually give an overview of what can you just give an overview I of what uh fossil is and how does it give similar properties to something like braid sure so fossil is Fork Choice enforced

inclusion lists um and the key about fossil is that their committ constructed inclusion list and so in um in some inclusion list designs they're called proposer generated then there the one proposer generates one inclusion list and sends this off to like a builder who builds a block according to the constraints established by that inclusion list whereas with fossil there's a committee of inclusion list generators 16 according to the current um that that generate their they all generate an inclusion list and all the proposer has to follow these um all of these inclusion lists uh with some coffe hats of course and so the the the difference to braid is that um the the

inclusion list generated by this committee are only say things about inclusion there are inclusion lists and they do not say anything about ordering and so the um in in braid there's a kind of vew canonical which is the entire network there's no centralized V canonical um and this means that the no no single entity has this like last look property that Max doesn't like um which is that kind of one one actor has the ability to determine um anything more about the sequence of transactions than any other actor this is important for auctions um but also still provides sensor resistance that's really really like top is better than any other J um

and it even has kind of the the foundations to support on auctions like Max wants um and it's also like I think a lot more practical to implement because it's uh you don't need any you know special porography things that um that Max is is hoping that can be developed so uh this is kind of this like simultaneous release problem that Max is trying to solve is just a really really difficult technical problem even if you did solve it as s other problems with bra I think but the um if you if you have solved simultaneous release then you can get a lot further um but it's just hard problem and then on fossil like we have the there's literally a spec written for the entire fossil proposal and the properties of fossil are you know a great Improvement

to ethereum today I think it makes sense that it's a top priority for Justin got it okay helpful um okay so overall multiple concurrent proposers you view as not only being a good design architecture for these L1 but also being very helpful for base rollups because it increases the amount of participants that you can run this auction over so super interesting um how do you view I guess I would be curious to get your perspective as well on could you could you say a little bit more about this this is something that gets talked about internally blockworks a good amount but how much is Max resnick's kind of push winning internally within the ethereum community I don't feel like I have a good sense of that I know that there was a little bit of a Twitter back

and forth around Devcon and you know we don't need to get the specifics around that but I I would just be curious you know what's what's your sense around where the ethereum community and sort of the core Dev uh Builder heads are at in terms of prioritization here are people questioning the rooll up Centric road map are they not is there a push that's winning to move a lot of activity back to l1's the L1 like what do you think yeah so um based on conversations I've had with etherum Foundation people and important kind of ethereum actors uh the Max's push to move back to L one execution is like is basically dead there's very little support other than some of these

kind of make L one great against circles and I think part of the reason for that is because we now have just a much clearer we map to doing what Max wants on a base rollup um at more scale and I think that even Max has realized this and so then the question becomes what about like the censor resistance properties that can still be applicable to rups to base rups especially um and I think we've seen a much more coordinated you of push for these uh with Max's grade proposal um but also with fossil and so I think the community has like you of shuffled some priorities around after after Max has kind of highlighted this um so well with a kind of cist with onchain auctions paper but the the kind

of technical solution to the censorship problem um in a protocol enforced way is fossil uh and there's been dramatically more kind of community alignment around fossil than there has been about about being braed and so yeah I mean the ethereum foundation has like a lot of sway in kind of what gets pushed But ultimately it's up to the allore devs um and I do not have as much of an oracle into what they're thinking than I I would like U but I you know I'm pretty I'm pretty to say that they're much much more um much closer to including fossil than they are braid and so I would say it's not too late for layer one execution to get turned around

and I wouldn't hate if we did that some of that in the short term U but I think the sensor resistance element has been exra extracted from Max's proposal and just we realize we have solution for that it's called fossil so we want to ship that before we um you know risk breaking things in a in a much larger way okay um final question for you here do you view this is something that gets talked about quite a bit but there's sort of a convergence in terms of architecture between some of the different large blockchain ecosystems so I mean it's even I and I know I talk about this all the time right so uh but you know when you look at something like Celestia um and ethereum their road maps look extremely similar right um they've

a slightly different Construction in their Sovereign rollups and they've got a neutral bridge in the form of um ICP uh and they're kind of going for these large blocks at the L1 that come to finality very quickly the tenderman consensus so single slot finality for them um even something like salana and ethereum don't look very similar the I guess the big difference is where execution ultimately in have happening but if there ever were to be something like multiple concurrent proposers or the fossil implementation that you just detailed start to look slightly more similar there and even something like Bitcoin if you were to actually get these ZK rollups everything's kind of looking a little bit more similar than it used to it where everyone started out do you see this convergence do you not see this convergence do you think there

are going to be Market differences in terms of different ecosystems on a decade long time Horizon I know that's really difficult to forecast but what do you think about this whole we're all building the same thing Trend yeah two things first of all like yeah I mean I think it's it's not wrong to say we're all building something similar um I think people like like once you start to recognize this like you really want to go write a blog post about how we're all building the same thing um and I think there's just so much Nuance that you skip over with some of this which is that like we are we are building uh very similar things but it's path dependence that actually matters and the end games are like not equivalent like the Sal endgame and the base etherum game are not the same there

are important differences to the properties of that actually are reflected for users and app developers like a verifiability right um and so I believe that the you know I I think we're building similar things but people tend to take this and like extract it to we've came across like the the endgame architecture for blockchains let's go um raise for a startup and and build that first um I think that's that's probably wrong like I think we the reason we're calling is because we've realized that there's some element of path dependence here and ultimately like the way to use Network effects that our ecosystem has built in the best way possible um is to have some some form of ZK have some form of uh execution

charting and um multiple current concurrent leaders and different ecosystems implement this in different ways of course but I think the fact that we're trending towards a similar architecture is not necessarily like a try to say that we have found like the endgame or blockchains now one thing I I will say is that if that's correct and we are all building the same thing and all like eventually working towards the same architecture in the end game then the only thing that matters is path dependence and ethereum is winning on network effects and so if you believe that we are actually building the same thing um then and you're working in some alternative ecosystem then you're you're betting that the execution capabilities

of that alternative ecos system like salana shipping um are going to outpace ethereum's existing Network effect I think that's almost certainly true without base fups like I said I say many many times we figured out a way to reuse the network effect of ethereum layer one add on Parallel Innovation for everything you could possibly want in your execution environment in your sequencing Etc um and do this on layer juice while still retaining that Network effect and so I think the very often like the I think so many people would would leave Sal or leave CES if they realize that um the execution kind of capabilities as execution I mean like shipping um of these different ecosystems is you're you're making a

event that is going to be out ethereum's execution capabilities um and ethereum already has such a massive head start that uh if the end game doesn't matter this is the only thing you're betting on and I think e now with BS has the best chance to actually ship towards that Vision without changing the lay one again that modification acceleration idea awesome well Matthew I appreciate it man you've done a really great job by the way on uh on Twitter as well there are a couple questions about how you balance your time between your school responsibilities and also startup and also Twitter so yeah you're doing you're doing God's work man and I also think you're you're pushing a really positive direction for theum so definitely keep it up and if folks are listening out

there and they want to figure out you know learn more about Spire or how you're helping uh support teams in their Ambitions to build base rollups what's the best way to get in contact with you or your team or whatever sure so if you're a uh if you're interested in just experimenting with Bas DRS and kind of learning about some of their property and maybe launching your own one day um then please reach out to me on Twitter or um or a company at Spore Labs uh we'd be happy to have those conversations um I think the biggest kind of action item for us right now is just hiring so if you're you know a passionate developer who um has built rups in the past maybe you're good with tees or ZK then then please reach out we are hiring for uh

every role you can think of um and the last thing I'll say is that if you're if you want to learn more about kind of producing content for Bas rups that's something we need a lot more of um I think there's there's still kind of a massive gap between the core ethereum Foundation researchers of like this is what the endgame looks like this is what the road map looks like and everyone else on Twitter because there's uh there's just a failure to communicate a lot of those things and so if you want to learn how you can help me and help um some other people on Twitter then then please please do Reach Out by DM awesome all right well I really appreciate you hopping on here uh we recording the day after Thanksgiving as well for for listeners so a lot of dedication here and uh we'll have to do

it again sometimes soon