Santiago Santos: My DePIN Bull Thesis for This Decade

Transcript

public companies that use crypto outperform crypto tokens. Why? Because distribution's king. The problem with these deepin things though is that their tokconomics have been just really bad. And that's like the biggest criticism. It's not just deepin projects that have faulty tokconomics. It's it's most token projects that have faulty tokconomics. Welcome back to the Rowup. We are your hosts. I'm Andy. I'm Robbie. And this is your home to learn from the biggest guests, the brightest minds at the tip of innovation. Our goal is to help spread the collective knowledge of everyone in our community. We are breaking crypto out of its echo chamber and taking it to the real world. Sit back, relax, and enjoy a quick word from some of our

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We're going to go to ECC for Ken. Okay. And then from there we'll we'll we'll see how it goes. I love the nomadic life. Yeah, man. You've been traveling quite a bit as well. Not as much not as much as you. Yeah. Yeah. How was the how was the Abalene Summit? Uh it was very good. you know, I I've been to a few avalanche uh conferences. I think I went to one of the first ones in Barcelona. Yeah. Um this is very serious people, you know, like um a lot of really good builders, like not fluff at all. Um it was very the venue was great. Yeah.

We we were the opening I was the opening speaker which was caught off guard. I was like I thought Emmen was gonna open it like no no you're going you're gonna pitch inversion. I'm like okay. Uh but it was I mean I I really um I've been very very impressed by the caliber of um other ecosystems that I perhaps like was not paying enough attention to. Yeah, of course I've gone deep into the avalanche working with them tied to the hip and you know Virgin will be an Avalanche L1. So yeah. Yeah, it's just um very serious from a you know I come from traditional finance private equity investment banking Morgan like I'm dusting off like you know like I come to these conferences and um Uh I spend most of my time not in crypto conferences.

Yeah. But Avalanche is like the closest thing to like enterprise grade the quality of the team. Yeah. For for us it matters a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you've been so you finished the race as of recent. I'm not sure if it's been announced. It has not been announced. Okay. Well I'm spilling I'm spilling the tea a bit. Um otherwise um it's been what couple months now? Heads down focus. you guys been hiring um doing doing a ton. I'm just curious like what's been your lifestyle change from like before starting in version to now and like how have you been adapting to that?

Uh great question. I mean it's it's not that dissimilar from investing. I mean you you are also an investor. Yeah. disclosure especially when when you're investing in early stage projects. The thing that you need to assess is it's it's a you know try to get a gauge of like how good is the founder and is he going to be able to inspire other people to join the the the the team and like if you're a venture capitalist that's a skill set that you need to refine like it's very you're reading people and you're assessing technical competence and leadership skills and I think uh as a builder now I've it's like going a step further because you get to do it and I'm now in a position where I need to convince smarter people to join. Yeah.

Across many different areas and it's so rewarding. I I'm like addicted to now I'm like who else can I go out and sell on this idea and then have them join the team and and honestly it's been so hey what's up really. It's it's it's so rewarding, you know, because I mean I you're familiar. I mean, I don't need to rehash what we're trying to do at Inversion, but I think it I mean I wouldn't have left and put everything on the side to do this if the mission and the outcome could have a material like a massive impact in crypto.

Yeah. And I think when the mission is is such I I've been able to I've been very inspired by the people that have reached out folks that I I'm like this person is very comfortable in his in their role in crypto outside of crypto. But the the amount of applications that we've gotten I I think like um one of our lead our lead investor has a a pretty big recruiting team and they were like we've never seen a startup get this amount of inbound from people not just in crypto but outside of crypto. Yeah. LinkedIn um paused one of our posts because we posted that we're hiring two private equity associates.

Yeah. And we got so much inbounds. I think 400 in the first hour. Yeah. They're like they paused it. They have to be a pot. Truly. Yeah. So So all this to say is I'm trying to build the most dense human capital organization. Yeah. And I'm addict I'm having I'm having time of my life because it's it's so inspiring. You know what I mean? It's like when someone I go back to certain moments in my career, it is incredibly empowering someone that you admire comes to you and says, "I believe in you." Yeah. And now it's the is like people that I really respect that I know have a high opportunity cost coming saying you know what I've been I've been crypto curious but this is the first thing that actually makes a lot of sense and a lot of it is not just to what we're doing. I

think the industry is at a point where it's like actually a very pivotal moment. Yeah. regulations cleared up, the infrastructure's been developed. So, I I couldn't tell you that I'd be in the same position if I tried to do inversion four years ago. Yeah. But timing is sometimes everything. Yeah. How's the uh how's the seeking for for businesses going? Awesome. Investor update here. Just like invest what are you doing? Well, not not to leak too much alpha because we're obviously under NDA with all these businesses. But uh I can tell you that I'm working 100 plus hour weeks and I'm like grinding till 4 in the morning doing models and Excel junkie.

It's it's like going back deja vu like like as if I were analyst at JP Morgan the investment bank. Yeah. Uh doing like leverage buyout models. So how many like companies are you analyzing on a weekly basis would you say? Uh we have a very well the interesting thing is uh we know what we want to buy. Okay. We don't know exactly the company. We have a list of companies that we like. Um, but we've pressure tested the thesis so much. Yeah. That it allows us to do diligence very quickly in a particular company because we'll we'll go in there and be like, we're looking for these very specific things.

Yeah. And so and so it's very focused and and that allows us to, you know, we're not a team of hundred people and consultants like back in my day like in private equity like a large private equity fund has a massive army and and consultants and adviserss and all that. And look, we we'll use them, but but we are very focused and we know what we want to buy. Again, this crypto enabled business transformation that that allows us to very quickly spin up and go and and like find the answer. Yeah. So, we've looked at a number. We're very focused on Latin America. Um just because, you know, stable coins are all the rage these days.

Yeah. I was going to say stable coins must be enabling a lot of uh possibility here. Exactly. And so for us like we we have narrowed down the sector, the region. Now it's a question of negotiating terms price. Yeah. Uh specific like company specific elements, but we're busy. Yeah. Okay. So a bit more broadly, Santi, how are you seeing the like let's just call it the the the non uh Bitcoin Ethereum market right now? Uh kind of like the like the token market. What are you seeing in the market from a investor perspective from like I I keep kind of memeing around this revenue meta but it's really just like this like idea of uh it feels like a lot of these uh

assets are kind of moving towards like show me the money productive like there's just like there's just a big shift in the mentality of investors I think in this space that has happened as a result of hyper liquid as a result of the new administration. Yeah. uh what are you seeing from your investor's lens um in the market now? Um and it's quite a broad question, so feel free to kind of take it wherever. Yeah, I touched on it a little bit in the roundup that we did live. Um there's um like you have Circle and Circle's done a 10x since it IPOed.

Yeah, mind you, this was uh right before the IPO, people are saying it's not going to go public. The IPO is bought. It's going to get acquired by less than six billion. It's going to get acquired by three. It's going to trade down. And here we're on a state of the world where circle is at 300. Yeah. It's done a 10x. Yeah. And I think that's very indicative of like people outside of crypto traditionally have been wanting to express a a long thesis on crypto and then particularly stable coin adoption. They haven't been able to do that and a lot of these allocators don't want to touch a token. So so when circle comes along it's an easy buy for them. It's an easy way to go to their their PM or go to their co and say hey listen if if you're if you're sitting at hedge fund

like this is the cleanest way to express a view in the public markets and of course Coinbase has cut caught a bid you now have 10 other probably companies that are private and are going to go public chain analysis of the world. Yeah. And and I so it's it's an interesting game because like it's a liquidity flows like uh we've been in a position where to your point very few assets have really performed in this cycle if you weren't allocated to hyperlquid. Yeah. Uh Salana uh Fartcoin and some derivatives like you you or and Bitcoin primarily you would have vastly underperformed.

Yeah. And and it all comes down to where the flow is going, right? Hyperlid very clear. they've they've really positioned themselves as capturing like onchain purps and they've actually done a phenomenal job. They have the the burn mechanism like people get that very clear. It's an easy clean story. Um so the question is like where do the next if 100 billion 500 billion of flows are going to come into crypto where where is that going to get allocated? I think different than other cycles. Now you have more and more instruments that investors can express along crypto via. You have ATMs, treasury companies, you have treasury companies, you have Coinbase, Circle, Robin Hood, New Banks. So So

um does that mean that tokens are not going to catch a bid? I don't know. I I mean I think there's like a there's a time and a place where people at some point in the cycle they express and go farther and farther out on the rest curve. But but you you guys know this game better than anyone. It's like human psychology at the end of the day does not change. Yeah. People that miss Bitcoin are going to buy hyperlquid. People that b miss hyperlquid are going to do something else. People that miss circle are going to buy something else. And so markets are incredibly psychological environments. And so that dynamic never changes. Yeah.

So I'm not here to tell you that Bitcoin dominance is going to go above 70%. At some point these things do catch a bid. Yeah. The thing is the nuance, right? And also I think like if you've been in crypto for more than a couple years and you're now bearish or thinking that like tokens are dead, well, you know, you have to your point regulatory environment clearing up. Yep. You have the ability to now like truly call perhaps these tokens as they are. You have the token transparency thing which I think is going to be important. Yep. And so this gap that you've had of like governance tokens dancing around securities laws I think that largely goes away and like again draw a comparison circle maker

yeah Coinbase unis swap yeah um hyperlquid binance and all the other exchanges at some point the market wakes up and says oh wait a minute there's this thing called circle and then there's a thing called maker that is poundforpound a better business model how the 100th of the employees like How many engineers Hyperlid has? I think they have less than 20 10 or 12. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wild. Yeah. And to that same point, Tether is now the most efficient bank in the world, right?

They, you know, have a number of employees. It's what much much less because they don't have to adhere to some regulation that requires them to hire 300,000 employees like JP Morgan. And yet by deposits and reserves all all reserves no right but the eighth or ninth largest bank of the world. Yeah. No it's it's it's wild crypto enabled businesses. Can I hear more of that? Yeah. Yeah. And just thinking about it as businesses actually, right? And less so about um just kind of like token token uh creation companies or something like that.

Oh yeah. Yeah, I mean people are still caught up in the meta of like Bitcoin and wrapping their head around what this is, right? You know, Robin Hood has caught a very interesting bid. The lad, the CEO, keeps talking about like how his business is structurally more efficient on the crypto side than the traditional brokerage side. I think the market now is increasingly understanding that crypto is, you know, Bitcoin is is interesting social experiment, but but this space offers so much more that I I'm I'll go as far as saying that more value be created by companies that come into crypto because they see an opportunity to leverage this technology to cut some cost in their P&L. You know, if you're if you're a Google or if

you're a company that is paying some service provider, web two company for data. Yeah. And you can say, "Oh, I can use hivemapper for location data or geoet." Yeah. Or I can use helium as a network to buy spectrum ps. The problem with these deep things though is that their tokconomics have been just really bad. And that's like the biggest criticism. Correct. I don't I don't disagree with you that like but again it all comes down to if a network catches a lot of demand you can you can then turn something around right yeah look at something like Helium right and they have a million daily active users yeah exactly so that token model clearly works I think it's not just deepin projects that have faulty tokconomics it's it's most

token projects that have faulty tokconomics yeah I'd be curious to get your guys perspective but like there are a lot of token to economics were codified in a world where there was a very different regulatory environment and so it warrants like if it's a good product then you could probably restructure the tokconomic right to some degree um but again it all it all is do you believe that this project actually is real demand and I I think some of these projects are actually getting real demand from real companies that are are are saying hey listen this is a good network it produces data that is reliable and it's a fraction of the cost tell me why reasonably speaking you wouldn't adopted and and hive mapper.

Yeah. Yeah. It's mapped a third of the world roads. Mhm. Uh the data is reliable is up toate. It's communityowned network. It is landing Fortune 500, Fortune50 companies. Yeah. Every other week. Yeah. Introducing Asset Runes, the future of decentralized finance, stable coins natively on Bitcoin. Hedge against volatility. Diversify your portfolio. All directly from your Bitcoin wallet secured by ZK technology. This is asset runes available now exclusively on Starknet.

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One kind of more uh investing question here and then we'll let you go in a sec is that we we've focused a ton on on like uh angel and kind of like private stuff the last like two-ish years allocated a lot through our fund. Now we've been really just kind of like really really picky on the on the private side and like very very focused on maximizing the liquid side as we feel that we're like beyond midcycle per se whether you agree we're in a cycle for multiple years or not. I'm curious like through your investing journey through different cycles, how you've like managed the thought process of allocating between like liquid markets and private markets. I'm like if there's like a model that you've had to like

slow down or ramp up or if it's really just like project and founder based. Um yeah, ju just kind of like h maybe help us understand a bit how you think about those two parts of your portfolio and like kind of how the timing of basically where we are in different speculative periods affects how you allocate. I don't change my investing framework based on market conditions. I do it is some of it is informed but like like if I see public like liquid stuff be totally neglected then I think the risk trade off at some point you're like oh well I I I like this project why wouldn't I like allocated to it I mean at the end of the day all these are early stage projects

so I I just come at it from that standpoint some have margin more liquidity than others which again I invert and say okay as an investor where I've made the most amount of mistakes is where I've overallocated or don't have cash flow or don't have the opportunity to invest. Uh and so when you go too far in the spectrum of investing only in privates and if you if you invest the $100 that you have in privates, you should be prepared to like hold that position for the next 10 years as is traditional venture. Now crypto is a one of those liquid venture asset classes where you can have a token and whatnot.

But I think I think going into an investment if you're going to do privates, it's like probably isn't 100%. It's a for me it's it's always been a disproportionately high percentage of my portfolio because I feel that's where I have an edge. I've cultivated a relationship with founders. I like to be one of the first investors in projects and you know I go in there saying probabilistically it might it will likely not work out but if it works out it has sort of a power law distribution. Um but but managing cash flow is super important. Why? Because the worst mistakes I've done are when I feel I feel the crunch.

Yeah. Everything goes down. And look, it never no one has ever complained that they've had excess liquidity to deploy when everyone is scared. Yeah. And and you know, I think the best investors like like categorically throughout the history of finance have been ones where I've been incredibly patient and have waited for the market to come to them. The problem is like everyone has anxiety holding cash. you you you wanted unproductive right? Um but uh but now that that's been the biggest upgrade that I've done, which is I I still very much love meeting early founders, being one of the first believer is just it's just I like it.

Yeah, it's it's inspiring. I if I can be a part of the journey of like believing them early on, all the better. But um but I guess I I've I've been in a position where I've now optimized for like having a very good set of my portfolio totally uncorrelated. And so most people always think about is the thesis correct less so is this the right structure? Is this the right liquidity? Is this the composition of the overall portfolio? And so I think like that's where I I spend more and more time around like I want to always have uncorrelated assets because that then allows me to be really way more aggressive in stepping in and because look in the

next five six years. Yeah. Are we going to see Bitcoin less than 100,000? I don't I I don't think so. You don't think so? I think it's I mean it's possible to get it under. Yes. But like for I think it's it's more likely it it goes higher. Yeah. I I I I don't disagree with you. I do think that we will see it definitely sub 100,000 and you want to be there with cash when everyone else you meant like in five years is not in a binary moment within the period there are very discreet moment look I think like a lot of things don't change like human psychology doesn't change what does change is the velocity of markets and the mo the movement of money is like this just in a in an accelerating pace like most investors don't hold on like in 1980 1990 most

investors holding on to stocks for over for for multiple year periods because most of that relationship was brokers and your investment advisor would like call you every six months and say, "Hey, by the way, here's how you're doing." Like, yeah. Yeah. Now you have Robin Hood where people can express views on the daily real time. And so the velocity, the market is just mimemetically trading these things, not just in crypto. Yeah. Um, but I do think like if if you can allow yourself to break away from that for a minute and say this is what I believe in. I'm going to focus on these particular areas and I have this thesis.

I I think it serves you well to like as much as you are bullish on a particular opportunity to have uncorrelated assets where you can draw from in moments where the rest of the market is saying god like like how go study Howard Marks he he is the person that I draw a lot of inspiration from because investing is a very psychological sport and he says one thing that has always stuck with me which is the market pendulum swings from extreme euphoria to despair and fundamentals never deviate from like a tighter middle range. And so if you have a good understanding and appreciation for what this technology offers, uh the real fundamentals, like from your position, you get to talk to a lot of

founders, you get to understand where the puck is going probably better than others. Yeah. Then you have a pretty good like that's your edge, right? Yeah. Do you want to be like lever long 10x and be liquidated? Absolutely not. It's not the point. But when you see the market like if you're in this conference and everyone's like bearish project X. Yeah. Celeste last year or whatever. Yeah. But you know the team, you've been paying attention. You're like, "Okay, well clearly the market is not being efficient and I'm willing to hold this bag for the next five years." Yeah. You step up with big big conviction. And the other thing is like there's a lot of insight that you can gather by onchain activity, right?

You know the vesting schedules, you know, who's selling. And so that is just an added piece of information where you always want to appreciate the dynamics of because I I'm I'm always like second guessing. It's like when I come across as something really good, I'm like surely I'm not the first person to look at this. What am I missing? How do you manage your own psychology amongst the general market psychology where the general market psychology may be wrong and you may have a contraing opinion? How do you how do you reconcile too? It's like that meme of like the guy sharing the it's like the market's wrong.

Yeah. Um how do I reconcile it? It's given me um again I think when I was in the podcast insulate your lifestyle to a point where you can absor you can absorb all the irrationality. Yeah. And if you and you hold the position it's like listen I'm always willing to change my mind and quickly but I'm not I never want to be a I never want to be forced into doing anything. Yeah. Because that sucks. Everyone's been in a position where imagine that you're bullish in the space and you get forced to sell because you have obligations.

You have to pay your bills. have to. Yeah. And so if you if you can insulate that, it gives you mental clarity to say I'm going to dedicate 90 as much of my time to continuously absorb information on this particular thesis that I have, which is the module thesis is correct. And you're constantly like paying attention to everything that's going on and other ecosystems, but and you you keep like processing information, but you never want to be forced into doing anything right? Cuz that sucks, man. that you can have the thesis right, but if you don't express it correctly, none of it matters. At the end of the day, it also supports your point about patience.

Patience. And insulating your mindset and your lifestyle will help prevent decisions out of necessity. Correct. Yeah. And and therefore maintain patience. Yeah. like like the ideal state is you don't have to think about anything other than doing research, doing the rollup, bringing on smart people that you're going to absorb as much information from. And then you package all that and you express a view. Why would you ever put yourself in a position where you have to think about am I getting it liquidated? Uh do I have enough money to pay bills for the next couple months?

like you want to be almost like I guess the way to do it is inverting and saying in a in an extreme scenario where this asset were to fall 90%. Yes, I'd be extremely excited to step in. I need to have the capital to do it. How often do you think about inversion from a from a philosophical view? Is it part of your belief system to sort of look at the thing at its face value and then take one step deeper and invert from a different perspective? Yeah, I mean invert always invert and I'll I'll summarize it beyond this.

I mean it's a Charlie Mered from German philosopher and the process of inverting is like I would summarize it as if you focus on the downside the upside takes care of itself. So so like but clearly you guys are here and are dedicating your career because time is the most viable commodity. Now you've decided that crypto is one of those generational um categories industries that has captured the zeitgeist and it's going to transform every industry. you either believe it or you don't. And I think you see most people come to that conclusion because discovering crypto I almost wish that I go back in the first days that I did it because it's like you open a door in the future and you see ways of doing things that can transform the fabric of society and businesses at large but then being patient enough to see

this might take actually 10 years or so what you want to do is be in a position where you can be very patient. I don't think it takes another 12 years for companies to start using this technology. I think it actually will accelerate because crypto sits on top of the internet and you have distribution and you know the world discovers these things faster but but again if you focus on the downside and what is the worst thing that can go wrong well you know the space can go down regulation can change it doesn't mean like back in 2012 when I first discovered this thing there was a very material risk that the industry would go to zero there's only Bitcoin now the case I think that that that existential risk has gone away so now you're in a really interesting position where it's like, okay, this is

in the next 20 years, crypto will go from what is still a very drop in the bucket of an asset class that is still discounted. You walk around, you outside this venue, you just appreciate that no one is actually using crypto in the way that it will be used. Yeah. Yeah. Like this technology is not relatable to anyone other than oh this is another way to express risk and maybe like make a 100x bagger like it's a casino. Yeah. That is going to change faster than most people think. But I also a part of my brain just always goes to am I willing to wait and if this were to take 12 years will I be here and will I continue to express this view and maybe increase my allocation to it and so I I get comfort around that is

maybe it's a coping mechanism but but I I look I I think like we're at a I've said it time and time again I I do believe it like I'm there's something just so powerful of the arc of this industry where you see it fitting into so many different industries and at a and and exponentiating what AI can do from a data verification, immutability, model training, inference, whatever you want to do or call it, but like crypto sits at the core of a lot of our like super generational transformations.

Like you best believe this house of class is going to grow at least an order of magnitude. Yeah. Don't do dumb Survive. Yeah. You know, stick around. It's the name of the game. Like you can't even be lucky if you're dead, right? No. Don't die. Quite literally. Don't die. Yeah. Do you have any uh esoteric or out of this out of the box thoughts around AI? AI. Yeah. Or about like this like the way that the space is, you know. Transforming and just growing like do you have any anatomy kind of like I'm not an AI expert. I I do use it now.

So So two two insights. one I've felt less of a need to hire for analysts for instance because what I can do with perplexity or deep or or chat GBT even mockup designs I'm not an engineer but I've been able to mock up certain designs for how I want to build and transform the company so like I've I've like what would have taken me a team of 10 people and like an order of magnitude and cost now we're a lean and mean team but we use a lot of AI in our workflow so it's it's allowed me to do things that I would have required to have a team of three analysts and taken a month to produce a mockup or an MVP and I can do it quite literally in less than a day.

Um, anything that is repeatable we're cutting out of the equation. So like we can be vastly more efficient as a startup that we are because we just raised around. We like we can leverage these tools for a fraction of the cost and they're super powerful. So that's like instant number one. I think I think that's I I just have observed it firsthand building conversion. The other one perhaps more controversial is that I think the impact that crypto will have on the making companies more efficient. You know, when people talk about AI is like companies are going to be able to use AI and and fire like a big part of their workforce and they're going to be more efficient. Any repeatable process like AI will truly make these businesses very very efficient.

Yeah, I I do believe that. What I but I think everyone like is focused on that. What I believe that perhaps others don't is that the impact that crypto as a piece of technology is going to have to businesses is going to be more material in the near term and probably medium-term than AI. Why? Because AI like you have these companies investing hundreds and billions of dollars in capex and H100s to train data and models and whatnot. And look, it's okay. I think it's overhyped. I think the t the market when when deepseek came out everyone freaked out because it's like wait a minute you have companies that are spending hundreds of quite literally massive amounts of capital to pay chat GBT or whatever and then Deepseek says oh with 5 million we're able to build a model

that is like poundfor-pound good and so I I I'm cautious of investing in anything AI because I think the pace of innovation there is really chaotic and fast I think the companies that really reap the benefit of AI are like large companies that have data so the S&P 500 like go long the S&P 500. I wouldn't invest in AI startup. But I will say like crypto as a piece of technology and we're seeing it in a version. This is core of our thesis is sure can I buy a company make it 10% more efficient with cryp with AI? Absolutely. And we'll do that. But I can make I can cut cost 60 70% of the crypto rails.

And I think like that's something that like no one in the public markets appreciates. I'll tell you who appreciates it. Stripe. Yeah. They bought bridge. They bought privy. Yeah. But most if you go talk to the analysts that are covering these companies are talking about AI with them, hey, what do you think about crypto as a piece of technology that could allow companies to cut costs or go to markets or expand their top line because they can from a unit economic standpoint? They all of a sudden stable coins has allowed them to do so and so. Like, oh, what are you talking about? Yeah. Like, no, you know, it's it's not it's it's totally not in their in in in the language of markets of analysts like everyone's talking about AI. What I'm so excited about what I'm doing is that I hope that I can deliver that moment for

analysts that covers telco JP Morgan. I buy a company and the entire telco universe has like shitty margins and I took this company and like double margins and the analyst is like oh you probably you probably did AI to do that and you're like you know to some extent but it was quite literally using crypto rails and I think once we do that I think that the focus and how people perceive this industry is vastly different. It's it's a it's a these conferences are not going to be people with t-shirts. There's going to be people with suits coming in saying, "Yeah, how can we use the modular, you know, thesis or how can we implement crypto in our workflow?"

Yeah. Yeah. You know, so, so I I guess that would be probably the controversial take. So, are you going to wear suits to the crypto conferences? I I am I'm dusting off my suits because a I'm hiring mostly from people outside of Corio like in finance. Yeah. Uh from And also conversations like you're going to talk to management team, I want to buy their business. I can't show up in a t-shirt. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sanjay, I think uh I think this been a great conversation. Just one last thing for you. Um what are you bullish on and what are you bearish or cautious about today? Just in general, crypto life, anything.

Let's do one for life and one for crypto. Oh, uh probably crypto is easiest. What am I bullish on? I'm bullish. Um as I said, I think this this we're at a pivotal moment in crypto. I think I'm earlier now. it fits into so many things and I think we're truly at an inflection point and a large part of it is because the regulatory environment has changed and you know I I I'm excited to see a lot of things that we've we wish we could have tried as an industry maybe a couple years ago but we couldn't because of these constraints the nice thing about it is so much info has been built that we're at a really interesting time to execute and deploy on these things so token design tokenized stocks on chain all that I'm super bullish on uh I'm bearish on um

what am I bearish on? I guess I'm marginally bearish on how people express the view on crypto because I think that that probably changes. Like I I think like there's a version of this world where like public token public companies that use crypto outperform crypto tokens. Why? Because distribution's king. If you don't have distribution, it's tough. Yeah. Robin Hood. Yeah. Has distribution. Yeah. Maybe a question for you guys. What do you think outperforms Robin Hood or Coinbase or Robin Hood and maybe not Hyperlquid but yeah, it's just something I think about a lot and this cycle is different than than others.

Yeah. Um, it's been the public equities this cycle though, at least in the Yeah, at least so far. I I guess I I am bearish on on public companies uh like bootstrapping uh like the the the token like the warehousing tokens like the micro strategy, the hundth micro strategy is not going to work. So I'm bearish that. Uh so that that would be for crypto. I don't know if there's anything specific I'm curious about for life. For life well cautious about as we as we rumble into this world of AI of of of brain rod of social media of uh the change in the way that the world works.

What is uh what what are some things that you think are going to be prioritized more or the puckle will go to that direction? For example, one thing would be zoom into human in, you know, interaction experiences, right? Or you're bullish on patience, genuine authenticity. But what are you bearish on in in that in that? I'm very bullish on um I I I think the middle ground kind of disappears. The extremes pro like proliferate. So you remember when the Apple Watch came about, everyone was saying that traditional watches were going to die.

Yeah. It's been nothing but the opposite. Why? Because in a world where you're totally digital, you crave the other extreme more. Yes. The human interaction, the analog. I love I love collecting watches. I to me there's something so nostalgic and just remarkable about the watch making as a craft. So I'd be very bullish on on craft. Like something that is the total opposite from as much as we are talking about technology and we love technology. There's things Morgan Howell has a great book which is uh always the same. I think I think it's always the same. It's phenomenal because yeah, we're on a point of like the the pace of innovation is like there's never been a

moment in the history of humanity where we've innovated across multiple dimensions. Yeah. And it's it's compounding but at the same time a lot of things don't change. And so I I I think there are certain pockets like like entertainment as a category or human interactions or watchmaking as an industry like I think those continue to see rising demand because you will humans will always crave one thing which is differentiation and the signaling of things. So like I think uh those experiences like sports or they're all the rage, right? The Lakers just sold for like 10 billion or so. like these are things that never change because humans at the end of the day don't change. And so I'd be very bullish on

understanding like in which areas whether it's watchmaking or whether it's sports as franchises like really like that I think never goes away. And I think in this world it's so tempting to say no that that disappears because we're totally going to be digital. Yeah. But I I I think uh and what I'm bearish on is um I mean from a I think when when you when I first discovered crypto and Bitcoin was around, it's I think like I'm bearish on governments that don't serve their citizens to the best way possible because I think we're moving more towards a world where when money transcends local barriers and moves easily Yeah. it it places more

I think the there is a power shift more towards society that if you're in a place where the government doesn't treat you fairly, you can pick up your and leave. Meaning you can use buy Bitcoin and and leave. And you saw this in Venezuela. You saw this in the places. So if I'm a government and you're not holding up the other end of the bargain, which is providing core services, yeah, tax a bit. I think this whole na construct of nationalism and like governments and like the separation of power. I think you have now this thing called crypto which truly transfers power more to people.

Yeah. That's not to say that governments are going to cease to exist. It's not to say it will always be a thing, but I think that it is it is I'm bearish on governments that are are regimes that don't don't treat people fairly or don't hold up their other end of the bargain. Yeah. And and that that could that could be the case of like how easily people move from New York to Miami, but that extends further at a at a global scale. Yeah. Well, one of my favorite YouTubers is Nomad Capital. He talks a lot about like living in different places, how to do it, optimizing structures, and his saying is is go where they treat you best.

Correct. And that's like the world that we're headed to like more and more. Yeah. Montescu talked about three separations of power like legislative, um, executive, and judicial. Yeah. Now you have a force to which is this this thing called like non-s sovereign stores of value and digital rails that transcend local borders. Now, are you still going to affiliate as an American, right? Like I'm not American, but I identify with the values of this country, which is extreme innovation. And people care more about your ideas than your background. Old money, new money, all that crap. And I think that's powerful. That that is a philosophy is not so much a country. And I would argue if you're in like someone in San Francisco, like San

Francisco is this collection of people that come there because it's a mecca of innovation, but you know, there's people from all walks of life, all different countries, you know, I think they have more affiliation to their company values than their country, per se. If you're a Googler or like a So anyways, Bology talks about the network state. This the network state. I I really ascribe to that. Santi, man, I appreciate your time. Yeah, thanks for joining us. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. Always appreciate the comments. Always always good. Yeah, bigger bigger conversation is always better.

That in person's always We'll have to do it again if if you guys are not bored of me by now. Thanks. Thank you guys. Take care. Enjoy your week here. Yeah, good to see you. Yeah.