S4 - Ep. 16 Giveth & Q/Acc with Griff Green

Transcript

welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and we publish a season of episodes every couple months this season is lean mean Capital allocation machines what are the ways in which we can do different weirder more scalable and more precise Capital allocation now because we have onchain Primitives how can we maximize not just Financial returns but achieve impact equals profit ecosystem growth public goods or protopia so my guest today is Griff green Griff green is the founder of gith gith is also involved in the token

engineering Commons and a number of other projects in the space Griff has been on the podcast this will be his third time on the green pill podcast and uh it's always a delight to talk to him because think gith is a force in doing public goods funding and regen funding in the ethereum ecosystem his platform gith which is gith is a DA but uh Griff is the founder their platform gith is a crowdfunding application through which people can do quadratic funding they can do donations to different projects in the ecosystem and Griff and I are talking today about qak which is a new mechanism that Griff and the giveth Galaxy are releasing which is basically an augmented bonding curve allowing you

to when you donate to a project you're kind of buying into that bonding curve so I don't know if you've played with friends Tech but think of think of it as like friend Tech but for regen public goods so basically instead of getting into someone's DMS by buying onto a friend Tech curve you are giving to your favorite public goods projects and that money goes into a bonding curve and really new and interesting ways so I think that Griff is sort of at the intersection of a lot of interesting mechanism designs through token engineering Commons and gith which is the Cod funding platform that he is the founder of is where he puts that in practice and it's always fun to catch up and talk about the latest and greatest in the web 3 mechanism design space g Griff and I have traded a lot of ideas

over the years about how to supercharge the incentives to fund public goods and so it's it's fun to hear about their most recent experiment which again is called qak so I I hope you enjoy this episode with Griff green what's up good to see you Kevin yeah likewise so what have you been up to what has gith been up to 2024 well we just launched something big well not even launched really we're announcing something big uh partnership with well we're we're teaming up with polygon we're going to help them in their Village and we have like a really cool plan to kind of fix some of the problems we've seen in the web3 ecosystem grants you know it's a pretty vicious world out

there honestly you know like uh and and you see a lot of people being kind of I don't know what the word is but it's the web3 grants ecosystem is just like not clean these days so so you're saying the grants ecosystem isn't clean or there's there's some problem with the grants ecosystem yeah grants and web 3 are really challenging for all parties involved you know if you're an ecosystem like uh an L2 or a or Unis swap you want people to build on your protocol and continue to build on your protocol and add value to your protocol and especially with the L2 Wars these days a lot of projects it's in their best interest to actually hop from L2 to L2 they they go build

something awesome for optimism and then they're like well you know I can do the next level with a grant for Arbitron and then I'm gonna go to ZK sync actually and they they're just hopping from L2 to L2 and the ecosystems like it doesn't help them a lot to give these kind of to to uh to reward this kind of behavior but they don't really have a choice you know because this is you know the good teams are doing that because that's in their best interest especially shortterm uh but probably long term too uh because most projects are focused on either launching their own token one day or you know building something that is cross chain something that more people can use instead of just within that ecosystem

and also when an when a when a L2 or an ecosystem gives out a grant they usually give out the Grant in their own token and of course the teams need to sell that token to actually build do the work so that's a huge problem and then on top of that how does the community actually get involved with these teams you know it's pretty hilarious how a lot of the ogs I talk to these days look back at the Ico era of crypto very favorably you know it's uh it was actually aligned incentives pretty well communities are built by teams who are launching tokens within an ecosystem and then they're committed to that ecosystem system

because their token is there uh I mean we didn't have the L2 Wars so it was a lot hard to be cross functional I don't know if that would repeat these days but it really all the incentives were aligned in that scenario and they're just not aligned anymore yeah the ecosystem is certainly bigger and more complicated but there's also more capital and in some ways more opportunity well I'm excited about this episode because you know I'm involved with getcoin which has getcoin grants and you're involved with gith which has also also grants products and you I think we can through the episode we can compare and contrast different things that we're seeing in the grants giving ecosystem I I really want to get into the announcement that you've got today but but real quick uh just wanted to revisit giveth functionality and feature

set I think that you all are really strong mechanism designers and so gith has a lot of the latest coordination mechanisms out there in fact you and I did an a marathon episode about coordination mechanisms where we listed off like a hundred of them but the ones that are on giveth are quadratic funding give backs give power uh you know tell us tell us more about uh giveth as it as it stands right now and how you're kind of stacking mechanisms to build the ultimate Grant giving power tool yeah I mean we we've been doing grants and and donations in in web 3 since 2017 so we've been seeing all sides we started we started first with like very Milestone focused grants and restriction on how money could be spent in transparency within donate the donation space and we quickly realized actually

very inspired by getcoin all along you know really you guys plays such a great trail that people just want things to be easy simple so we got rid of all of our smart contracts actually and uh now on gith when you donate to someone you're just sending a transfer there's not an approved because there's no smart contracts in the way it's true peer-to-peer donations but on top of that we stacked uh givebacks so givebacks is is actually our web3 version of a tax deduction but we don't care about taxes or governments or any of that in fact it's often when I say that it confuses people they're like oh yeah 501 c3s and stuff if you're a project on giveth you don't even have to

have a legal entity you just have to be able to verify to our basically due diligence team that you are using the funds to actually provide public goods and forgiveth it's like open source code but also you know addressing the floods that happened in Brazil last week or you know uh earthquakes in in Syria or t turkey we don't care uh about legal entities we don't care about any of these things we just hope that you're trying to make the world a better place and when donors donate to those projects they get give tokens in return actually up to 80% of Their donation can come back and give tokens uh which is pretty insane we've given out somewhere almost

a million dollars worth of uh rewards through the give back program to donors to public goods so uh pretty proud of that actually and it's like 870,000 I think to be exact yeah and so when you donate on giveth you're you get give backs but on top of that what do you do with your give tokens well you can uh we have this other system called give power which is effectively modeled after like the ve curve ecosystem you know vot escrow tokens in in defi a lot of projects use this same kind of mechanism where they will lock the ecosystem token uh and and uh for some period of time the long longer you lock the more voting

power you get yeah this is the ve CRV scheme exactly uh but basically you're using it a gith exactly right we use it with GI we kind of like we made it less de gen we we don't like people locking for five years they can only lock for one year it's more of a tapering off it's not as strongly focused on making you lock for so long like if you just stake and keep your liquid tokens you have a lot more voting power than you do in some so we just like parameterized it differently effectively and the big difference is instead of when you stake your tokens you're allocating um you know the liquidity mining rewards on giveth the givebacks program is basically donation money and so when you stake and lock your give tokens you get

give power and with that give power you can boost projects uh when you boost projects they go to the top of the list so they're seen more widely by the community who are donating especially in qf rounds very valuable but then also they get more givebacks so if you donate to a project that has been boosted by a lot of give token holders then you'll get more give tokens back than if you donate to a project that hasn't been boosted at all right now that difference is not huge it's uh we really want to incentivize people to donate to every public good that they love uh so if your project has no give power boost you still get up to 50% of your donation back and give tokens if you have the

most give power boost then you get up to 80% back in give tokens and I say up to because the mechanism is such that like uh like balancer used to be back in the day uh for liquidity mining there's a there's a max amount give tokens that we will give out in any two- week period of a million doll a million give tokens so every two weeks we give up to a million give tokens to donors and uh and if there are a lot of donations in that twoe period then everyone kind of gets a haircut on their give backs yeah those are the two big me but we also have qf we just added super flu we have a lot of cool things still on top yeah what I think is you know interesting about you

all so you know those of you who have followed your work know that you're also involved in token engineering Commons which is this group of really great mechanism designers and I I feel like you're you're sort of going deep on mechanism design through Tec and then you have gith which is where you actually put it in practice and just that learning about hey people don't care about the mechanisms they just want it to be easy I think is is a really great mechanism or sorry is a really great set of constraints and makes gith and TC a center of innovation for these for these things and it's with that only use that framing as a Launchpad for asking what you're announc what are you announcing today what is the next big innovation in the gith Galaxy tell us tell us about that the big news that

we're coming out with today is that we are teaming up with polygon to uh be to experiment with the the next evolution of qf so we're calling it qak and it's actually basically quadratic funding but with tokens so when you donate you know a lot of awesome projects launched on on top of gitcoin and use quadratic funding to you know bootstrap their project and eventually even did airdrops to the people who donated to them and airdrop season went wild and and getcoin was in the middle of it it was pretty cool but uh we want to make that a little cleaner and simpler and actually give people

almost like a Launchpad on top of qf so that a project can actually fix some of the alignment issues within the ecosystem Grant space because instead of the way that this whole process will start is that a team will get a grant from the ecosystem so lots of people would apply they get a grant from the ecosystem but instead of that Grant just going in their back pocket they actually will use that to uh launch their own token with guaranteed liquidity via augmented bonding curve I'm gonna try to avoid the scary the scary words bonding curves and all that stuff I mean the yeah the mainie is that this is too red this is too reductionists um but I'm

kind of thinking of this as like it's kind of like the front Tech experience but for public goods instead of buying into someone's DMS you're uh buying into a bonding curve on gith when when you make a donation is that too reductionist no I just want to like help the audience understand exactly what this is that's exactly it it's like friend Tech but for projects and sponsored by uh sponsored by an ecosystem and uh we're we're committed to the polygon ecosystem actually polygon zkm is and giveth we share our founder in Jordi bolina so uh obviously we're good friends and and we're really excited to to really kind of uh you know come back into like the Jordy Griff experience that's you know

it's been like I haven't worked very closely with Jordy since maybe 2019 and so now I'm really excited just to like come back and start building together again a little bit on top of the polygon ZK VM but uh but yeah it's basically FR Tech PL where except with an augmented bonding curve so we I'm really surprised that frch didn't like check out the research that common stack put out there around starting out with uh what we called a hatch basically making sure that you have a trusted group of people that are the first people to buy The Trusted seed The Trusted seed exactly that they initialize the economy you know they're

the first people who get tokens and that way and have access to this chat room have they actually you know really care about it and frch you buy you start a room and the first people who buy your tokens aren't people at all they're Bots that are dumping on each other it's like it's a crazy experience honestly but in 2021 we we addressed that issue with bonding curves with the token engineering Commons and we learned a lot when we launched the Tec and and I think we're we're going to take all of those learnings into this qak mechanism and I'm really excited because I feel like it realigns web3 ecosystems with small teams and the community because everyone

gets part of the action uh VCS come in at the same time as regular Community people if a team maybe a team could work with some some seed round investment or something behind the scenes they can do that of course but really there's a a perfect way where small project you know can can actually launch their own micro economy or their their own token economy without needing venture capital investment and what I'm excited about is instead of giving them a grant we give them a revenue stream we built into the token economy is uh funding every time people buy and sell a token so with the token engineering commment we did this already and in the first uh year or two

I actually don't know the dates I should check that out but the TC raised $300,000 from the buy and sell tributes on top of their bonding curve which that's a lot of money and and it came instead of uh you know it came as revenue and it actually kind of models after this you know this opportunity where you can get Market feedback which is really missing for a lot of small teams in web 3 they don't have this like opportunity to work with their Community get feedback uh understand if they're doing well relative to other people and this is something that our mechanism provides using qf as a way to gather Market feedback so so let me see if I

can play some of this back to you and and and tell me how close I get but um I'm a project that's working on public goods in the the polygon or ethereum ecosystem let's say my project is called the public goodies uh I signed up to give it and under qak um not only uh can I receive donations or not only can I see receive tokens with givebacks and with quadratic funding but now that money is going into an augmented bonding curve that that basically bonding curves are basically a way of every time someone purchases into it the number goes up a little bit and they get a little bit of that project's tokens back but people because the price is bonded to the supply they can also sell that token back into the curve and reduce the

price so anyway basically we're now stacking on gith give backs quadratic funding and bonding curves and you think that these things compound in order to build the ultimate mouse trap for helping fund these ecosystems am I coming close at all pretty close see that the thing is that you're speed running it so that's what you just described is the plan for geres and uh okay very excited for geres but geres integrates give back backs and give power and all these things and we want to confirm and we're sure that we actually understand this uh connecting plus qf into uh into an ecosystem project before integrating the other mechanisms so I see okay so we're

we're just starting with the bonding curves yeah and we're going to use M we're going to use madic right so polygon Village is this is polygon's Grant ecosystem and they're going to fund we're we're basically going to have run an application and and you can uh signal interest to apply for the first qac round right now tweet uh that you can find a application form if you if you are interested in this well polygon is is sponsoring us so that we can find teams that we believe will add value to the polygon ecosystem so then their bonding Curve will actually be fueled with mic that will be the first initial buy you could say into the bonding curve

and that will bootstrap their economy but the team will get all of the tokens in fact I'm very excited man I always want a tangent this you know but I I I think it is important to just tangent off and say like bonding curves are great for bootstrapping but they're not great for the life cycle of of an economy you only want a bonding curve at the very beginning because they solve the liquidity issues and price Discovery issues when you're really small volatility is insane I don't know how many people have panala tokens in their wallet you know and they're worth nothing anymore but you know which is so sad because panala is such a great project but the token you know didn't work out so now you just have these empty tokens but with a bonding curve

and a bonding curve economy every token can be sold for the collateral under the curve but the big thing about bonding curves is so liquidity is guaranteed but it's technically under collateralized so you have to include vesting you know and this is another thing that frch really does doesn't talk about but you need to lock up the tokens and so for the life cycle until we get to the qak round all the tokens are locked when we give a team a grant and we uh fuel their bonding curve with madic they will actually then uh get all those tokens but they won't they won't be able to sell them they're just kind of incentive for them but they get you know those

tokens are really cheap because the first the first tokens you buy in a bonding curve are always really cheap and then the idea is that they would then let in other key people that they would need to be part of their team or advisers or you know uh ecosystem support subject matter experts that they really want to be part of their part of their success and so those would be the next people that could actually participate in uh getting tokens in their economy and of course like you have to have these tokens to get into their chat room and actually engage with the team so now they're starting to build this like community and at first it's handpicked because you want that trusted seed but then once you expand to

a certain State then we're going to run uh qf rounds which we're going to call qak rounds but they work the same as qf uh we're going to run these rounds where people where they can broaden their community so when people donate to the projects in the qak round Their donation is going to go into the bonding curve and actually mint tokens for them so they're going to end up getting tokens for Their donation and the matching pool funds will actually go into the bonding curve and Min tokens as well all at the same price everyone in the qak rounds will get the same price but the matching pool will end up going into in this case quick Swap and it will uh create a

normal liquidity pool and a normal decentralized exchange because this is one of the huge issues that we've seen with bonding curves is that that it's like you're selling something in the in the neighborhood convenience store it's like the little store down the street but everyone's going to Walmart everyone's going to the centralized exchanges or Unis swap or whatever and your token isn't there so they they don't have access to it and so the bonding curve as is the primary Market maker it is where tokens are issued but it's not necessarily the best place for your average person to and Speculator uh to actually go there and get the tokens they're going to want to get the tokens where they normally go get tokens and so the matching pool funds are actually

giving out liquid tokens whereas all the other tokens before this are locked they're locked for a period of time so the more of the market Discovery like the open market Discovery will happen in the public facing decentralized exchanges where Market Discovery is best done actually and the bonding curve is only going to be issuing directly locks tokens for people who really believe in the Project's long-term future and and uh what's really cool is this you know I'm describing it for like one project but this will happen for five to 15 projects in our first season and they will be competing against each other basically and that's what I love this is

what I really want to see in the public good space and in the web three grants ecosystem I think competition is really critical for the cream of the crop to rise to the top you know and so this mechanism uh qak which is just basically quadratic funding but with uh you know token economies underneath I I think it really breeds this it breeds ecosystem alignment every token is backed by the by madic and so if madx price goes up madx price goes down they feel it you know they they are directly aligned with the success of the ecosystem the community gets first involvement you don't really need VCS to come in you have actually get support

from the community by the way every time that tokens are minted the team will actually get Revenue they actually get a a fra a piece of that right so some of the money will go to them as liquid Revenue that they gather when people are minting tokens in the bonding curve so they get a revenue stream that is based off of Market feedback and what's really crazy is that the ecosystem also gets tvl on CH right instead of giving a grant and the team just dumping the grant so that they can pay for development the ecosystem actually locks that those tokens get locked in a in a bonding curve and uh

more tokens are issued based off that bonding curve so we're estimating you know tvl multipliers of 10 to 30 per X on the initial on the actual grants that are given through this mechanism for the L two chain uh in this polygon which is super cool so in addition to announcing the mechanism and qac today y'all are also announcing that you are accepting applications into this cohort of builders that are going to use this system and I'm wondering if you could say a little bit about who an ideal applicant to the cohort is someone who wants to be in the polygon ecosystem I take it someone who wants to issue a token on an A on augmented bonding curve

and build their community and liquidity and and network effects on polygon with gith is that right also say say more about how people can apply 100% so we're we're just collecting interest right now we're just telling the world about the mechanism it's really important to us that we get get it the word out there it's it's a pretty new thing it might be confusing to a lot of people I mean I'm guarantee it's going to be I feel like the guy with all those strings the red the red strings on the map trying to explain how this all works it's going to be simple for the people participating in in it the only people have to experience the complication are the teams but the you know qf people they just go they donate they it's simple for the participants but as a mechanism it's

kind of complicated and so we want to make sure that we have time to explain it to people and and really um get people on board we just have an interest form you know it's just like give us your email and we'll keep you up to date on the progress we're hoping to actually take in applications in a month or two and this is also dependent on polygon Village because we're working with them to get the funding for these teams so this is a you know it's a there's a lot of coordination happening and the teams that really will succeed in this program first off they have to bring their own token utility we we will bring token utility uh the friend Tech token utility access to a gated chat room but then the teams that really Thrive actually need a

reason for the token tokens on a bonding curve need to be utility tokens uh there needs to be some reason that someone wants the token besides investment honestly you just shouldn't launch a bonding curve if you're just trying to raise investment go mint your tokens without the capital requirements of guaranteed liquidity the challenge is if you you know if uh you want to do that then you really need to be a larger ecosystem that's the the problems that bonding curve solves is that you can start small and grow but it it still doesn't make sense unless you actually need a token so and of course commitment to the polygon ecosystem because you're going to be tied to that ecosystem for a

long time we act at least two years I'm really excited for our process of the bonding curve closing down it's one of the things that I think we're bringing to the space that I haven't really seen too many other projects even talk about is this idea of a life cycle of a bonding curve where bonding curves just need to turn off swarm is turning off their bond bonding curve DX turn off their bonding curve once you get to a certain size bonding curves hurt more than they help and uh and so what's cool with qak in this mechanism is that's going to be clear up front the rules to turn off your bonding curve and the team will get all the money that's in the

bonding curve so effectively it's not really a bonding it is a bonding curve from as an issuance mechanism but it's also almost like an a milestone to create a a success economy if you can reach certain kpis and create an economy that can live without your bonding curve then you will get the collateral in that bonding curve and you don't need all that big investment because you already attracted the investment from the community the support from the community and we're talking like probably a million dollars will be in that bonding curve that then you can use for the next big push that your team wants to make sort of coming together for me your your vision here of this is is going to be

super reductionist but I'll try to summarize it for the audience commitment to one ecosystem so not hopping from l2s L2 to L2 not dumping your tokens as soon as you get them but also stacking these really powerful mechanisms that we've known about for years in theory but have never really been used in practice and productizing them and making them available to Founders who are up and coming in the space so I I look at you as kind of compounding different game theoretic incentive alignments on top of each other until they become this like huge detractor of of accelerating teams and I'm curious to see how how the first cohort goes so if I'm if I'm in the polygon ecosystem and I fit in if I'm interested in this where do I go to apply we we'll have a link uh in the

show notes but if you could just say the URL that'd be great yeah I believe it's uh man I forget if it's typ form. giveth or give. typeform let me see okay we'll have a we'll have a link in the show notes yeah it's G it's uh it's give. tform or Ty from.gi QA CC uh hyphen interest and yeah and it's in our tweet thread so definitely check out our tweet thread I spent a lot of time making those memes I hope you enjoy them um we uh were pretty stoked about this you know this has been something that we've been dreaming about since 2019 uh and actively working towards because the the first step for us is qak and and we want to get that right we're in the first

season we're going to learn so much it's definitely an experiment it's not something that's going to be a polished product uh and we're and we're working with a lot of ecosystem Partners inverter Network General magic common stack common stack really is where this whole design was Battle tested uh obviously polygon and gith we're all coming together to build this product and so there it's going to be pretty experimental and rough in the first season not for users but like behind the scenes and we're going to learn so much about the mechanism that we may have to change it a lot for season two and um and then once we really get it going and we feel like you know season three

season four like the goal is to do this every three or four months have another season with new people coming and uh do these qac rounds very similar to how gitcoin has blazed so many trails for us in the past we we're following this quarterly Cadence we will learn and improve and then the next ecosystem to get it will be giveth and this is where we start to integrate give backs give power and all the other mechanisms that giveth has and bring this to the public goods space qak is a mechanism it's not just for public goods just like tokens aren't just for public goods you you know there it's it's a mechanism that can have broad appeal but I'm in it for the public goods I'm in it to build

something better than governments this has been the motivation of founding starting gith from the very beginning nonprofits uh when governments fail to provide value to society people start nonprofits nonprofits are the free market like replacement for governments but starting a nonprofit there's no upside you know like it's if you're a good entrepreneur you're going to do the you're going to do the spreadsheets and be like I should not start a nonprofit you know so but if we can make nonprofits profitable if we can make providing public Goods to society a profitable Endeavor we can attract

Innovation we can attract entrepreneurs and and I see the you know the financial infrastructure that has come out of the web 3 space to really be that first like public goods that is for entrepreneurs I mean if you think about it like anyone in the world can create a Bitcoin or ethereum address and receive money from anyone else in the world it's almost non-rivalrous and absolutely non-excludable so I it's a public good it's Financial infrastructure for the world and they didn't do it with donations they didn't do it with taxes they they did it with

cryptoeconomics and I am a firm believer that we can build something better than governments with crypto economics and this is the next shot um I don't think governments are bad you know especially not people in governments people in governments are doing the best they can they're public servants it but the system is broken and I think crypto will be that upgrade whether it's this mechanism or other mechanisms I I I think retr pgf has a role to play I I think uh you know qf has a role to play hopefully qak bonding curves all of these mechanisms that are coming in the public good space have a role to play in a free market evolution of providing public services for society

which is what governments are are are really doing I'm excited to see how the first experiment goes I think you're taking a lot of really important Primitives and trying to uh combine them in interesting ways and I can't wait to see which configuration is the one that that actually works and uh you know maybe there's an opportunity getcoin can slingshot off of giveth a little bit here and copy some of the mechanisms that that yall have had I mean I think I'm really just you know it's kind of fun to be friends and to be building these parallel Grant economies to each other and I think that there's a lot of opportunity to build the movement together but also to learn from each other and so uh looking forward to seeing what green pill and get getcoin can learn from gith and augmented B

augmented bonding curves are really powerful so curious to see if that's the next hot thing we could not do anything without the work of gitcoin everything that I do in gith is really like gith was founded first but we didn't have that much success until we started seeing how you guys were doing it and really following your footsteps and and so you know I'm constantly inspired by the work that you guys do and uh qf is no different in fact I'm very excited to make qak on top of Alo protocol it's going to take us time you know uh integrating all these things together is a lot harder than it sounds but uh giveth in general is starting to make steps to integrate Alo protocol uh we

just made super fluid integration and obviously we use gitcoin passport for um for qf we started this round that's going on right now uh there's a qf round on top on giveth the galactic giving round it's like a arbitrum ecosystem round almost all the sponsor most of the sponsors are coming from arbitrum in the ecosystem they uh we're starting to integrate cluster mapping for it so this will be the first these are these are Cil resistance tools that getcoin has been playing with uh for the audience who's unfamiliar with them Joel Miller the author of cluster mapping has been on green pill we put a link to that in the show notes also but uh yeah it's fun to play with mechanisms and then sort of make them

open source and not only gith and gitcoin can use each other's mechanisms or learnings but I'm also excited about one of the Visions I sort of have is what what if we made these mechanisms available for anyone to build into their D apps down the line and just the same way as you can pull an erc20 or erc721 into your app and it's well documented and it's never been hacked uh and you just know that out of the box so you can focus on things on top of that what if you could take qf or retro pgf or augmented bonding curves and put them into your app and just the more Legos that are out there the more exponential per permutations of different value people could create out there but yeah it starts with gitcoin and gith sort of working together and then it becomes

hopefully a whole movement in the next cycle or two yeah aloe protocol plus augmented bonding curves man it's going to happen it's just you know just takes time I I've been telling the inverter crew you because they're really doing the smart contracts the inverter Network team who are good friends that I've known for a long time and a lot of their first work was actually with the common stack a lot of the people who are the founders of uh inverter came through the common stack ecosystem and uh and so you know it's just there's it's man there's so much in going on all the time like if you're just trying to perfect bonding curves that's a lot of work already you know but we're we're going to make this happen because this is the magic of web 3 composability is what makes is what

makes it so magical I'm confident that we'll we'll get there H and I I want to say like we made a major stride to Bringing Alo protocol to gith with the super fluid integration so uh now in this qf round you can actually set a stream it's not like streaming qf which is super cool uh it's a little more simple it's it's just you set a stream on gith and if your stream happens during a qf round when someone is participating we count that as a donation for that project during that qf round and so it's kind of like a set it and forget it donation it's going to be integrated into givebacks it's integrated into qf and to do it the only way we could really integrate our system

to work with superfluid was to use grub now so uh which is the next we just integrated that into gith and every time someone sets up a stream they're actually adding their project address and their project owner address into grants Hub so uh it's the integration is happening slowly yeah I I think that you know my model for da to relations is at the social layer you know we Vibe together do our Founders do podcasts together um and then there's like the technological layer do our Technologies talk to each other and then there's an economic layer on top of that and so that's my generalized framework for doubt to doubt Partnerships but uh you know I feel like gith and getcoin we're

like nine out of 10 vibing together it feels like we're building a regen movement together the technology is starting to seep in uh between each other but yeah I don't know maybe there'll be a token swap on the on the frontier or something once the technology gets more integrated and we don't need to rush it you know uh I feel pretty comfortable just like building the movement together right now and and sort of copying each other's mechanisms out in the open not feeling guilty about that but feel like proud that we're slingshotting off of each other and and the recurring donations thing is a really good idea I I'll keep my eye on that there's a lot of people I went out to lunch with these EF developers and they're like yeah I contributed to getcoin back in like round nine but then I got busy and I forgot about it like if

there was just a way to set it and forget it so that every time there's a getcoin round it does it for you I think that's that's I'll be interested to see how that goes and how that compounds value in the gith ecosystem yeah absolutely I mean it's been a requested feature for a long time people just you know recurring donations is something that is pretty standard um most nonprofits get a majority of their donations through recurring donations uh where they get like every month there's just a credit card you know payment and they get $100 from from a lot of Random doners so it's uh clearly something donors like at least in the web 2 space and so we'll see if the web 3 space enjoys it I I think it'll make life a

lot easier what other mechanisms are you excited about right now I know we're getting to the bottom of the hour but I feel like you're my mechanism design nerd friend so I got to I got to get that in before we wrap absolutely I mean I'm still excited about retro pgf and all the work that's happening over in optimism you know yeah hell yeah the the metrics experiment this round is going to be really cool I think there's a huge future for retro pgf it aligns incentives in a super cool way still relies on a lot of donations which kind of is a challenge but when optimism mints their token the op token and uses that token to reward people for Ral pgf you know that's not really a donation so you know when you pair it with a token economic system retr pgf is perfect it

can be simple but there's a lot of there's a lot of experimentation that still needs to come up and I know you're doing uh easy retr pgf I think cell's coming up uh filecoin did one right yep that's right for the people in the audience gitcoin forked optimism's voting interface and is now making retro public Goods funding available to many different types of mechanism so trying to democratize access to the to the uh the best funding mechanisms is something that we all have in common I think yeah and and we're building a an Al also a interface for retro pgf called pairwise and the the goal there is for it to be super fun you know something I've really wanted to see the space uh jump into is

is making voting fun which I think qf was the first successful project to do it because you don't it doesn't feel like voting but you're absolutely right and that's uh I think that should be the goal for everybody in web 3 to kind of gamify the collective decision-making process and so we're making a real game like it's going to feel very gamy you know there's going to be background music sound effects your uh first it feels like Tinder where you'll have a categories in in pairwise you'll have a group of projects maybe like 30 projects that are in a category so like oh yeah I want to rank that category and then you'll choose between these 30 projects first like do do you think the project

should get anything yes or no and we kind of give it a Tinder like interface right so you can swipe left or right uh first I I think for the MVP it's just going to be clicking a button yes or no but you know eventually you should be swiping left or right and then once you have narrowed the field you'll have see two of them at a time and you'll pick the one that you like best and at the end of that you just pick you're just like ah this one's better than that this one's better than that and it should be kind of fun you know eventually we want to add like points and you know at the end once you finish ranking the the category you'll get like a treasure chest with some kind of reward and then you'll uh also give feedback on why you

ranked these projects uh because I also think like getting feedback for the projects is really important and then uh we'll move you'll move on to the next category and and the dream here is H to kind of uh not only not only just like get a final output and like who gets more funding from retr pgf but also the project Discovery you know one of the coolest things about quadratic funding and I've always loved is every time I donate on gitcoin or gith I discover new projects I'm like oh this is cool what are they doing oh cool you know like I like that and maybe I'll even build off of them or use their interface and so for public goods especially for retro

pgf or retro funding as it's now called it's more important that you have this project wide project Discovery so instead of our application being focused just on the 150 or so badge holders that get to really vote we want to make it also a community signaling app so that delegates badge holders recipients and uh op token holders all get to rank the projects in retr pgf and then we'll aggregate all of those signals to uh show some information to badge holders so they can help make their decisions this is the the goal of pairwise within optimism but of course we're excited to use pairwise to just like easy retr pgf to just help ecosystems distribute

rewards to their Community if you're new to the podcast the last episode that Griff and I did together for green pill was called the Tinder of onchain voting mechanisms and uh if you search green pill and Griff green that'll come up as well as the legendary episode that we did where we listed off like 60 different coordination me isms yeah so uh it's been fun to have you it's always fun to catch up with you Griff and thanks for pushing the space forward anything else I didn't ask that you want to say before we WP man you know I just I I don't know if I said it enough but I can't tell you how much I appreciate your work Kevin like I really am so glad you're back in gitcoin uh I don't know how you find the time to do these green pill podcasts and man helps bring

gitcoin back into the major flow and improve everything and also just be everywhere in the ecosystem your your work is really inspiring and so thank you so much for all that you do and and for having me of course yeah yeah likewise well uh I just have to say that uh getcoin is a network and I think that I'll get all the credit and all the all the blame in a lot of ways as its founder and um you know with that in mind I got to say right back at you g Griff yourself and the gith ecosystem are continuing to move the ecosystem forward so excited to see what we can do when we work together and not aart and so let's keep let's keep grinding and I'll probably have you back in 2025 and that'll be your fourth green pill episode so uh looking forward to doing

that too super cool hey thanks a lot for having me Kevin you bet all right we just heard from Griff green I'm excited about qak because I think augmented bonding curves are really powerful and it's always just a delight to compare and contrast giveth and get coin strategies for building the public goods ecosystem thanks again for listening to the green pill. network podcast again we were building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world like Griff green like all the people like giveth and token engineering comments if you value our work you you can collect this episode onchain go to pods. medgreen pill to find all episodes and to start collecting thank you to yes

crypto.com your contributions mean a lot to me all right well it's been a fun one while you're here while you're here please subscribe rate and review and share this episode with your friends peace and love I will see you next time