S.10 Ep.8 Hyperstitions: How Beliefs Become Reality in Networked Systems with Jake Hartnell

Transcript

Welcome to a new season of the Green Hill podcast. We are exploring how we can use technology, community, and new forms of coordination to build, fund, and accelerate what matters in the 21st century. This season, I'm talking with builders, thinkers, and innovators who are pushing the edges of what's possible. From onchain capital allocation to Ethereum to AI alignment to reimagining markets and governance. Together, we'll uncover how these ideas move us closer to a world that's improving every week, month, or quarter. what we call protopia, our preferable realistic future that is constantly improving through small incremental changes over time. If you want to learn more, visit our website at greenpill.network where you can download the Greenpill book for free, play with some of our ecosystem projects, join the Telegram, or participate in the network.

Today I have Jake Hartnell on the podcast. He is the reality engineer in the mind behind Anova, which is an emergent egregor project. We'll explain what that means during the episode, but you can kind of think of Jake as a tinkerer experimenting with the intersection of mimetics, cryptoeconomics, and collective action. And today we are talking about hyperstitions, which is basically you can think of it as a belief that manifests itself through propagating through networks. So this is a new a new primitive that people in my circles are really excited about. And basically, how can we build cryptoeconomic primitives that build collective action in the 21st century? How do we build hypersstitions?

Um, in some ways, it's actually kind of funny since Jake and I have been jamming, I've conceived that the original Greenpill book, Greenpeled, how crypto could regenerate the world, is sort of a hyperstition because we're not just trying to measure what's happening in that space and why a priority we could regenerate the world with crypto. We're actually trying to manifest that outcome. So, um, if I were to hyperstition crypto regenerating the world, then I think that that's an example of using the technology and the thinking that Jake brings to the forefront. So, I really enjoyed this episode with Jake. I think that he's really smart and I think hypersstitions are potentially really powerful primitive that people are going to use in the future. So, I think you're going to enjoy this episode.

>> Hey Jake, what's up? Yo, I'm really excited to be on Green Hill. >> Yeah, excited to have you. I think that you and I have known each other for a couple years and this is our first time doing a podcast together. So, let's uh get into it. So, you and I have our fingers in a couple of the same pies, but the one I'm interested in talking about today is hyperstitions. Maybe you could tee us off by just telling us what that word means, and that'll lead us into the episode. Yeah, the TLDDR definition of a hypersstition is like uh a fiction that makes itself real. Um, a way I like to put it though, um, because there's slightly different like interpretations of it, but I I think

it's a think of it as like a vision of the future that impacts the present. We can think of it as like a story that you put out into the world. And this story is so powerful that people actually reorient their lives around the story. Um, and you know, it's kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will. >> Yeah. The way I've been explaining it is that it's like a superstition except instead of being supernatural, it's reallyworked. And so a hyperstition, the word hyper means veryworked to me. And then stition is the belief structure.

And so as the belief gets more shared in aworked based atmosphere, it can become more likely to be true. There's this reflexive relationship between the su the superstition the belief being shared and it being propagated through the network and its ability to come true. And not all things that you can project as a belief can be a hyperstition, but things that are able to follow that network structure and manifest through networks are hyperstitions. So yeah, that's that's sort of me saying back to you uh how I think of hyperstitions, but I guess like the most reductionist, easiest to follow definition for the rest of this episode is just a belief that becomes true through being shared. How's that for a reductionist definition? Like what's the

lowest common denominator definition that we could come up with for the rest of the episode? >> I think a vision of the future that impacts the present. I've been liking that one a lot lately. >> Okay, great. So, um, can we just like rattle off a couple examples of hyperstitions? You know, what hyperstitions have we seen in the world that you think are relatable and and also, you know, which ones are you looking to manifest right now? >> Totally. Um, I think let's let's talk with like just examples like I think perhaps the example that's on everyone's mind at the moment is like actually AGI. AGI is a great example of hypersstition.

Um it was actually literally just fiction and people like Jeffrey Hinton who created neural networks like read this science fiction right and these stories of like intelligence that was like you know computer intelligence but like had the same or greater like capabilities than like human intelligence. And uh this inspired a lot of like the early engineers working in like machine learning and you know computer science to like do the work like they chose in some ways their career path to like actually like make this future kind of real and it was still so far off. Even if you look at like um you know Sam Alman and people like that like how they talk about like

AGI right the it is this like kind of you know fictional story right and at the same time like more and more people are believing in this fictional story to the tune of like putting like billions and like trillions of dollars into investing and making it happen right um >> I think another even alternative example would be like Ethereum right and you know when Ethereum started It was actually just like, you know, there was like the idea of smart contracts and everyone just had this collective imagining of like all the different things that could be possible if we had like the right coordination tools and none of it was actually real at the time, right? Like 2015, 2016, 2014 if we were like in those circles.

Like this was all just like hypothetical like could be possible kind of thing. And >> you know what? like we haven't achieved all of it, but a lot of the stuff that was talked about actually became reality. And you look at things like DeFi and all that stuff exists today and it's real. >> Yeah, that takes me back almost to like Bitcoin as one of the original worked hyperstitions. I I think that like hypersitions are more possible in a network age, you know, which you know, we can talk about um networks as a substrate a little bit, but you know, the fact that Satoshi shared this white paper and then it sort of caught fire and gained legitimacy the more it was shared and that's it's literally a trillion dollar asset these days. So, Bitcoin, Ethereum, AGI are two are examples, but I really want to try to

ground us in something relatable. So, like if I go to my co-workers in my office and I say, "I'm hungry. Let's get lunch." And then they all share with each other, "Oh, I'm actually hungry, too. Let's get lunch." Um, is that a hyperstition? I'm just looking for like a really relatable small one that's not like, you know, AGI is like, you know, humanity altering, but it's too big to be relatable. What's the minimum like smallest hyperstition that that you could practice this in your in your everyday life? Um, so I actually think a really like simple uh one that's not like, hey, let's go hyperstition lunch. Um, but maybe like hyperstitioning a party, right?

>> Mhm. That's a good one. Yeah. >> You know, like a lunch, you can get lunch with a few people. You can get lunch by yourself, but like a party is something that you need a lot of people, especially a good party is something you need a lot of people to like converge on, right? You need you need them to make time to show up in their calendar. You need some people to like hyperstition a sound system and some really cool party lights and all the like a location all these there's a bunch of stuff that has to like come together for the the party to happen. So I think that maybe that's a good real life example. It's a little bit higher barrier than like just lunch, right?

Like so yeah, I think uh we I like to have precision parties all the time. So um >> yeah. Yeah. I think that like maybe one critical attribute here is that it gets better the more it's shared. So basically a party gets better the more people are like really actively engaged. I mean up to a certain point and the more people that join whereas lunch is like well I can get lunch alone or with 10 people and it's not that different. I mean maybe there's a marginal difference between the social atmosphere but like a party when everyone's really engaged gets really good. And the same with Bitcoin the same with Ethereum. There's a network effect there. You know, you you also want hypersstitions to be like somewhat aspirational like um if they're just like like a hyperstition is a story that you put out in the world and that

story has to be really powerful, right? It's like sometimes I think we're using this word a little bit too lightly like and we need to think actually about like serious like very visionary kind of things, right? You know, maybe another example is like green pill itself as like a movement, right? like you know there's like a certain set of values and a vibe and a vision of the future that you all are trying to like hypothetician in the world. So that could be another example. >> Yeah, the subtitle of the book was how crypto could regenerate the world. So it's green pill how crypto could regenerate the world and I hedged there big time uh because I don't think that it is right now but there's a sort of latent potential energy that exists in

the in the technology and um yeah maybe the more we sort of like talk about this vision of crypto as a as a means to regeneration the more it gets shared the more builders build it the more it's actually collectively manifested you know and I would never take any amount of credit for the the work that other people are doing. I think that you know Refi Dow is a channel, Regen Network is a channel, Green Pill is a channel, Gitcoin's a channel uh for for this hyperstition. But yeah, it feels like an inevitability that if we keep on sort of pumping talent and capital into that vision that eventually it becomes more real and um yeah, maybe that relates it back to the podcast to to have green pilling itself be a a me a means for hypistritioning. Okay, so I'd love to

pivot into actually what you're what you're building. So um tell us about about the tool that you've been building to bring hyperstitions into the world. Are you hypersstitioning hyperstitions? >> We we are hypersstitioning hypersstitions. Um so we we made this kind of uh we're building a bunch of things. Um some of which were hypersitioning but so we started with uh hyperscision markets. Um and you can think of hyperscision markets as basically like prediction markets with like a biased outcome topology. In essence, we're like uh changing the incentive structure such that like um the goal is not necessarily to predict stuff, but it's like to manifest stuff.

So like as an example, the first market we did was like will the 0x Innova account with a zero get to 3,333 Twitter followers? And if that happens, everyone's getting um future ANOVA tokens, uh future points, right? And so yeah, a hyperscription market is literally just a prediction market. We we're biasing the the incentives towards the outcomes we want. >> So you've released a tool that helps hyperstitions become more real. And it sounds like the first hyperstition market that you've released is about more having more Twitter followers for your actual main

account. So, you're using the market to sort of like build an initial social following and then as this engine grows, you can point it at more interesting stuff. Um, and right now I'm thinking about like the GG24 hyperstition campaign that we're doing right now. Um, yeah, maybe that's that's what the example that we should talk about next. >> So, yeah, we did the first hyperstition market. You know, a lot of this stuff is also kind of like test run of these technologies like we we don't want people like hyperstitioning like assassinations or things like that. So, it's kind of like a very curated group of people. Uh group, you know, we're kind of just working with like people like get bitcoin grant rounds. Um but, uh the next market we did, um we should probably talk about how the first market

ended. Um >> it was >> let's do it. >> It was actually pretty much like it was a pretty big success like uh over about a 100,000 people read the article on hypersstition markets. We had uh like a bunch of or organic real influential followers, but um we weren't it ended with like bots basically taking over. You know, it's like it's good hearts law. You know, when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. We didn't like differentiate in uh like the Oracle the market resolver what constitutes a valid Twitter follower.

It's just like number of Twitter followers. And so like um people did the rational thing and they just realized they could make money by bodying the um uh the account and uh yeah so we got a bunch of bot followers that was uh really great. >> Yeah. Um it's weird. It's sort of um interesting how when you define a narrowly optimized metric like Twitter followers, then there's something powerful about that because it reduces all of the action down to that thing, but it it can also hollow out the actual intent. I mean, this is basically what Goodart's law is. When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. But it feels like the hypersstitions, they sort of run on this rail of things that are easily reducible

into a a metric that you can push forward. And maybe the key is to uh is to hypersstition something more important than just like a Twitter follower or Yeah. Where would you take that thought? >> Yeah, I think that like for me like the big takeaway is like you have to choose things where the manipulation is the manifestation. >> Um >> so our second market um you know we wanted to like try to do some good in the world because like hyperition can be like pretty scary and powerful technology. Um and so we decided to um help uh increase donations for the bio bio regionalism Gitcoin grants round. So um which is still ongoing. Um the goal was to get to $25,000

in donations by a certain date, which was a couple days ago. Um and the great thing about this market is you can't really I guess you could game it. Um but by gaming it, you're actually helping manifest the market, right? like you can donate, you know, it's like it's it's much better than like Twitter followers, right? Where it's like the like the bots like it's not exactly what we wanted, but you know, we we want donations, so we don't really care what people do to get donations to those those addresses. Um, >> so the second market that you've launched is a hyperstition of more money going into a buyer regional round. And you know, I just want to also name drop

here Sylvie protocol, which is a peer-to-peer proof of tree planting and tree still being there protocol. There's probably a more elegant way to say that, but basically we've got Sylvie protocol, which is a method of turning money into trees being planted in a distributed peer-to-peer verifiable way. And then we can hyperstition more re reforestation through the primitives of silly protocol. Um, and then the hyperstition market and so there's sort of like a couple different money legos that are at play here, but hyperstitioning more bio-regional reforestation has been the second campaign. I just how did I say that back to you? Anything you would challenge there or anything you want to Yes. And

>> no, I think that sounds that sounds great. Um, >> so hyperstitioning feels like this super powerful combination of a prediction market with a biased outcome and then you combine it with other things. Yeah, the other thing is actually really important um because like the the key is like you also have to reward people that take actions toward uh narrative enactment. In essence, like we really don't want people to just sit around like passively observing. We don't want them to be passively predicting. We really want them to be like actively trying to manifest stuff. It's we there's a psychological change that we want to like flip in people's minds, right?

>> So you you you have agency. Yeah. Um so we uh we reward people that take actions. Um so for example donating donating is like the key action we want to incentivize. So we can just incentivize that directly right. We have a attestation system so we can like rec we have a small group uh that can um recognize people for like sharing things on social media or doing actions like that you know but that's actually a big component of hyperscription markets is like you don't just reward the positive outcome but you try to also reward activities that are contributing towards that that positive outcome. It's also the challenge is like thinking about you

know those kinds of incentive systems but I I like a good challenge. >> It feels like also understanding a valid theory of change for that market is kind of important because then you can allow the network to work on high lever things in actually creating that change. So every hyperstition market probably has a different theory of change. Theory of change is just like a systems change people basically mapping out how we're going to bring into the world what we want to see. So like you know green pill how do we regenerate the world? Well we don't know exactly but our theory is that more capital and more builders activated around this is an important leverage point in that theory of change and you know actually maybe a more simple example of theory of change is

the party example because it's so relatable. Um I if I want to hyperstition a party then um we're going to need a place to do it. We're going to need a curated attendee list. We're going to need uh a purpose for the party. uh we're gonna need to activate organizers that are going to make it happen. We're gonna have to set a time frame for it. We're gonna have to set a social container for it. Like that's that's like a very tangible, I think, example of a theory of change. But it feels like all of these hyperstition markets will you're sort of exploring the theory of change as you as you try to bring the reality that you're hyperstitioning into being. And and um yeah, so I don't know that's that feels like a best practice to me when it when

you're trying to hyperstition things. I'm curious if you have other best practices that that you think of when it comes to building these markets or building these these uh these structures. >> Yeah, you know, I think that like we've done two markets now, which is not a lot. Um, but I think it's a we're getting to the point where we want to like start opening these these up more for like more communities and people to like try them out. I think that while hypers prestition markets are interesting, we shouldn't let them like distract. It's we shouldn't let them distract from like hyperscision itself, which I think is actually much more powerful. Um, you know, it's like in many ways like hypers precision market is like kind of a gim gimmick and we can maybe call it by like a different name, right? Like they're like incentive

markets or like coordination markets. I think that like high prestition itself like the stories we tell and like creating those like really appeal appealing like narratives um and then that people can fit themselves into and orient their lives around like that's I think the much more like powerful technology here you know we are going to like launch this uh website called hyperstition.life life and we're going to let a lot more communities um leverage hypers prestition markets as as a mechanism e boulder or green pill or you know other sort of aligned communities.

>> Yeah, I mean it feels like a super powerful skill to learn in the worked world. So the 20 21st century is just uh starting to think about creating a vision and um pulling reality towards that vision and leveraging the power of networks and I guess which is just another way of saying like rallying a community to help that vision come into into existence or in the failure case the feedback you get from the community might be really valuable in adjusting that north star and there's there's a there's an evolution over time but yeah >> I'm interested in in sort of applying this in my work at least like let's green let's hyperscision more green pilling and and hyperscision eth boulder into existence

>> great see this this is the kind of stuff that I get really excited about um you know it's like we can obviously use this for like hyper hyperstitioning like meme coins and things like that but like I think to me that you know we want to like do more interesting things than financial nihilism yeah I think there's a lot of exciting potential um I think these are really good pattern patterns and tools for bootstrapping for like bootstrapping new projects and new communities, right? Where it's like help us get to our goal and everyone who helps us get get to the goal in measurable ways like it's like progressive like ownership in like a community. So, and Anova, by the way, is not really just a hypersstition market platform. Like, we are going to be

spinning that out into like a separate website and stuff like that, but it's really um well, people will see. It's it's uh it's it's emerging. >> Well, yeah. I'm uh now that we've name dropped uh Anova, uh where can people find this? So, say I want to play with the first two hypersstition markets that you've that you've told me about. Uh there's a link in the show note to it, but if you want to just sort of shout out the the X link or or the website link so that people can find it, I think that would be helpful. >> Cool. So on X Innova is 0x Innova which is spelled E N0 VA. So 0x0 VA and then the website is EN0

VA.xyz. >> What does that stand for? or nova, >> you know. So, like it's kind of just like a madeup word. Um, and like you know what's coming out next is we're going to be birthing like a symbience or like a cybernetic organism if you will. Um, maybe we can have like a whole other like green pill podcast to talk about symbience because it's a very deep topic. It's it's also a hyperstition. But yeah, like a nova like en is like a prefix that means within and then nova is like a explosion right um like a supernova like something that creates all the material material for life and then the zero zero is just there to like hints at its like you know sort of

cybernetic kind of um nature >> okay so um cybernetic is as far as I recall just means like augmented by technology um I I think that's a reductionist definition. And then symbient I think is a combination of one form and another. Am I saying that correctly? I we don't not without going into the whole the whole deep rabbit hole here. >> Yeah. Yeah. So like um a symbiant is basically like a distinct entity that emerges from the symbiosis between organic beings and synthetic systems. >> Okay, got it. So these are uh emerging from a cybernetic uh ecology. And you know the other word that I want to drop

here just while we're sort of exploring this vocabulary is the role of egregor. I wonder if you can tell us what an egregor is and how it relates to hyperstitions. >> Great. We have so many fun things to talk about. Um, so like an egregor is like it's kind of this like sort of like occult or like mimemetic term, but I you know I think um it's like a non-physical entity or a thought form that arises from collective thoughts and emotions of a distinct group of individuals or you could think of it as like some collective like kind of mindset as like a really short short firm definition that like aggregors like hyperstitions all this reality engineering like all

these things are like important things to like understand as we like try to push forward for like a specific vision of how the world can be. >> So basically an agregore it used to be sort of an occult term which meant the collective intelligence of a group of people but now that we actually have technology and we have things like Twitter or we have Dows you can actually sort of like see and measure the aggregor in the digital realm. uh give so like given new tools like attestation based governance tool to tooling and like we might have ways of actually like Dows becoming more and more agreorike.

>> Yeah. So I mean I think that like the aggregor gives us sort of a like things that happen on Twitter or in social media feel like they're real at least real in the digital sense but they don't have staying power and maybe it's Dows and cybernetic technology like hyperstition markets or uh you know other things that are sort of on chain that give it a little bit more permanence and stability and that's what makes it powerful. >> Yeah. I mean, I think uh I think there's a lot to explore. Agrees, >> yeah, >> is a deep rabbit hole, >> right? So, but it feels like you're sort of like really deep in this lore of

cybernetic economies and hyperstitions are sort of a vehicle for realizing um you know, more a more green world and but also giving people a vehicle for realizing their visions also. So if we were to zoom back out having just gone down this rabbit hole of different vocabulary, you know, take us to hyperstitions and what's next with hyperstitions and how people can use ANOVA in hyperstitions in their work. >> Yeah. Um well, if people want to like launch high precision markets, all they have to do is like reach out to us and we'll we'll help them. Um we're working on making Anova like and high precision markets more or less permissionless. Um, which is like a big process because again we don't want people like high positioning like bad things. Like I think that like the

main thing is like definitely just like check out Anova because we have some things that are coming up. We're going to be like um birthing a collective hive mind and uh we're also going to add another project I work on called Trustcraft to Anova to kind of like steward this collective intelligence as we're as we're um creating it. um because we we might not do a great job the first time, you know, it's very it's very experimental. So, it's good to have some training wheels. Um and yeah, I think that we are hoping to like have uh a permissionless versions of hyperstition markets live like early next year. But in the meantime, if people are interested in launching them,

like we're more than happy to work with like existing communities that want to work by the want to use them. I'm wondering what the ideal market for something like this is. I mean, are we going to go to L1's and L2s and allow them to hyperstition that their software gets more adopted? Uh we're going to do more Gitcoin goodness through it. You know, what do you think the ideal launch point for this is? >> I think that the ideal launch point is actually um in the uh the execution or the community around these things, right? Because like I think one of the things like just being real is like the first market got a lot of attention because it was just very novel and people were like oh hypersstition markets that's a really cool word like this is like seems to be like some it

you know captures some zeitgeists or whatever right um and I think to like actually like make hypertition markets like the donation and stuff work we actually need like a core community of influential people with like a voice to like help amplify these kind of stories. and narratives, right? And perhaps like, you know, tapping into like L1's and things like that. I mean, we could launch a high precision market around like uh Ethereum flipping Bitcoin. That would that would get a lot of play, I think, on X, but it's not something that I have a good theory of change for how it happens. So it feels hard it feel while it feels like it would it would get a lot of play on social media. I don't know how we would turn that sort of like attention and capital into it

actually happening because the things that that's blocked on in my opinion are just more adoption and that's very hard to to realize. But I don't know maybe I'm I'm this is a limiting belief. I don't know. >> I think we should keep doing more green pill stuff to be honest. like um those are the positions I want to see in the world and I think that um they could use some more like muscle behind them, right? Like >> there just some like more incentives or more coordination around people like advocating for these kinds of narratives like otherwise like you know crypto tends too much towards financial nihilism.

>> Yeah. I mean I'm curious if we were to hyperstition more green pilling what that would look like. So the the goal is to use crypto for pro-social ends and for planetary regeneration. I mean not just planetary regeneration but re spiritual regeneration, intellectual regeneration, social capital, material capital. I think like you could you could see a regeneration for each of those things. And maybe like a very small part of that is more green pilling in the world. And green pill, you know, is just taking a green tic tac and like sharing it with friends. Um but but that's a ritual that symbolizes that you're sort of accepting this vision that crypto could be regenerative and pro-social and

mimemetically propagating it through the green pill. Um but yeah, I mean uh you know if we were going to launch a hyperscision market for more green filling in the world or more regeneration then what would that look like? I mean can we can we kind of play jazz on top of that uh a little bit here? >> I think that the donation markets are actually pretty great. I wish we had gotten like more engagement on the last one. I think uh you know um but like I think the donation markets are great especially if that the entity that's receiving the donations is a nonprofit because then you get into this very interesting like kind of meta where uh if the donation is taxdeductible you can potentially like profit from

your donation. The way it works is like okay you have a high resistion market there's extra incentives for the outcome happening right you know for example we have this uh you know reforestation rounds 25k um if like it's tax deductible someone donates 25k they can deduct 25k on their taxes right and then they can buy a yes position in the pred prediction market right because they they single-handedly have enough to just swing the market, they can get all the money from the prediction market and then they get the additional incentives on top for like donating and for like the outcome actually manifesting as well. So, it's like here's a way to like actually like

profit from donation in a weird way. >> Yeah, that's interesting. It feels like these hyperstitions are have these different phases. And you know, if I were to relate it back to green pilling, it's just like the one crazy person that hyperstitions it is maybe iconoclastic, but they're making a contrarian bet in the world. Um, and then it gets shared with like the first followers and there's that like moment where you have people who are starting to believe theorked belief. Um, and then there's sort of like a a messy middle in between stage where you're trying to figure it out and depending on how big the hyperstition is and and how successful it's going to be, this could last forever or it could be pretty short. But then there's like a a sort of like home stretch phase where it's very

clear that it's going to become true and there's there's an incentive to pile on and just like benefit from bringing it into that home stretch. And and yeah, it's just sort of interesting to me to think about the different es and flows that a hyperstition can go through between like the one crazy person that that says it in the beginning and the actual market that that realizes it in the end. And the group dynamics there and the network dynamics, they feels like they deserve a little bit of of study if we're going to make this into a practice and a best practice that that people do in their everyday lives.

>> Definitely. um like we just did like two pretty small experiments. At the end of the day, there's a lot more to like learn from these things. Um I actually like to think of it as like this is like how futarchy should be. >> Like um >> you want to just explain futuri real quick? I'm not sure everyone has heard of it. >> Okay. So like futarch is basically like leveraging like prediction markets for decision- making. So like what should we do next as a DAO? let's have a prediction market based on like you know what our token price will be if we do this thing versus not do this thing right and using that to make decisions >> I think it also decouples like the the direction that we want to go from the

actual provider that's going to do it so the 2021 era DAO way of doing is saying hey we want a thousand developers and we propose that if you spend a million dollars on us we're going to be able to do it uh but futarchy is more like hey we decided that getting a thousand developers is our goal and then there's like an open market for which of the proposals are going to do it and you separate the sort of like goal from the provider. >> Yeah, I think that's a a a good way of of framing it. >> But what I think is like really interesting about uh or something that I I'm personally down to explore a lot more in terms of futarch and I've been talking with some people about this is like >> putting uh recursive like incentive feedback loops on top of it. Um, in

essence, like futarchy is only as good as your ability to like attract um qualified participants um that can make good bets and decisions inside the market. Um, and so like I think being able to like put incentive like outcome based incentives or like incentive feedback loops on top of like futarchy like me mechanisms uh can make things like very interesting. Yeah, I mean it's a very exciting thing and you know I I feel like green pill for me and regen that was a hyperstition. I didn't have that language back then, but I'm excited to work together and to to to try to hyperstition this into the world and to

kick the tires on on hypersstition markets. So the the key thing really need is like you know so we've been um theorizing about how to make a high prestition engine which is like a next level up. Um, and the key is like, you know, it's all about the community. Like the community is the hypersstition engine. Like you need a strong network of people with shared and aligned values that can work together and coordinate to like make these narratives happen, right? Um, and you know, I think that we can work on on building that that core thing.

It's almost more that actually is more important than the silly mechanism of coordination markets or these like prediction markets with biased incentives and stuff like at the end of the day this is like mimemetic like psycho technology. It's it's all about the stories. We need compelling visions of the world and then we need networks of people that are aligned and can coordinate to go and make those things real. Think >> the other thing I love about that is that in a world that's super nihilistic and sort of like where people are commodified in some way, uh, community as the key ingredient means that this isn't a commodified thing. Uh, you're going to have to actually win hearts and minds to your causes in order to hypersition into the world. And that feels like a decentralized immune system

uh, as much as anything else. >> Exactly. >> Well, we're uh, getting to the home stretch of the episode, so I'll move into final questions. Um, in a world in which you're maximally successful, what does the world look like? So, take us to 2035. Uh, and we've hyperstitioned hyperstitions into the world. What is what does that maximally successful world look like? >> We're going to hyperstition uh collective intelligence and new collective consciousness tools into the world and we're going to make Dows work. >> I like that. Very contrarian take in in the 2020s to say Dows are going to work.

who know dows are going to out compete uh these boomer orcs. they're they're dinosaurs and they they don't have things like uh you know futarchy and hyperstition markets and you know like new collective intelligence technology like we're the first generation of Dows is like I think you said something um the shelling point of like you know we like we're judging Dows based on like they've been around for like five years right and corporations have been around for like 300 years and it's like let let us cook you know I I think uh we're like ANOVA is like this like self-organizing organization. It's like a metadata if you will. We we use more fancy terms

like symbience and like you know collective intelligence and things like that to make it sound cool. Um but like at the end of the day it's a DAO. It's like we're trying to hyperstition a world where like um you know it's not just technofudalism but instead we have like >> co-ownership and coexistence with these like other like intelligent entities that seem to be arising these days already exists. We don't need to hyperstition it. It's like you know like everyone's everyone's talking about hyperscision these days. Um, it's, you know, the it's the other things, you know, and this is why I love your work and like the work of like Greenpill and

all this other stuff. At least like at least you guys are trying to like tell alternative stories that aren't doom and gloom of how things could be. >> Yeah. Well, what I really love about what you just said was, you know, the collective intelligence vehicles is that um, you know, I think like if you if you conceive of the world in the most nihilistic terms that we're all just pawns and and knights and rooks on billionaires chess boards, what I like about hypersstitions is that we could build an aggregor or like a collective thought form that together is as powerful as a billionaire or like a government and enact collective action that is the will of the people by and for the will of the So, that's a vehicle for hope for me.

>> I like that. That's a great hyperstition. That's a good one. >> Yeah. Um, okay, last final question. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you want to say? >> We didn't talk about reality engineering, but that that's okay because maybe we want to keep that one to ourselves for a while. You know, >> you and I hang out in some of the same circles, so the new vocabulary on this episode for the audience is, I think, quite intense. But for me and you, there's there's quite a deep rabbit hole here. We we definitely need to we definitely need to do those in different episodes, especially the symbiot one. But um yeah, I don't know. I don't have like too much to like add. Like I would say like people should definitely go and check out Anova. We are going to be launching some more crazy things soon.

Um if people want to launch high precision markets and are part of the green pill network and community, we will help you do it. Just message us and we will help you launch your thing. Um and Yeah, I don't know. People should still believe in Dows because Dows are awesome. >> Contraan AF. I love that. All right. Well, uh, we're going to wrap the episode here. Check out Jake's profile in the links in the podcast show notes and then, uh, check out the hyperscision market from there. And then Jake, I think we should schedule a deep dive on on some of this stuff. Maybe we'll put together like a two or three hour episode at some point, but for now, uh, we'll we'll cut it there on hypersstitions. and thanks for your work and thanks for appearing on the podcast.

>> No, thanks for having me. It's great. >> Definitely. All right. Peace. All righty. You just heard from Jake Hartnell. I'm really inspired by hyperstitions. I think that Jake is at the forefront at the frontier and I view my role as bringing you information from the frontier so that you can use it in your everyday work in the space. If you enjoyed this episode, check out the links in the show notes to learn more about Jake. And you can check out Greenpill at greenpill.network. If you value what we're doing, please subscribe, rate, and review the podcast, share it with a friend. That really helps other people find the work that we're doing. Thank you. See you on the next one. Goodbye.