S.10 Ep.4 - Meaning in the 21st Century with Ellie Hain | Greenpill Podcast

Transcript

Welcome to a new season of the Green Hill podcast. We are exploring how technology, community, and new forms of coordination can be used to build, fund, and accelerate what matters in the 21st century. This season, I'm talking with builders, thinkers, and innovators who are pushing the edges of what's possible from onchain capital allocation to Ethereum to alignment to reimagining markets and governance. Together, we'll uncover how these ideas can bring us closer to a world that's improving every week, month, or quarter. what we call Protopia, a preferable realistic future that is constantly improving through small incremental changes over time. If you want to learn more, you can visit our website at the greenpill.network or you can download the green pill books for free, play with some of our ecosystem projects, join the telegram or participate in the network. All righty.

Today I have an episode with Ellie Han. Ellie is a thinker, writer, and facilitator working at the intersection of culture, meaning, and progress. After creating the widely shared exit the void video, she helped catalyze the early work around the meaning alignment institute what she calls MAI. Then shifted from an institutional academic lane into experiential practice, mentoring founders, designing retreats and giving meaningd driven strategy for ambitious projects. In her recent talks, Ellie frames meaning as an attunement to life, presence, values, beauty, peak in experiences, and embodied everyday moments and argues that meaning is both rooted in tribe, story, ritual, and evolving in cycles of pushing and returning to the center. So, uh, Ellie, I think, is a really interesting thinker

and speaker thinking about meaning in the 21st century. And I just talked to so many people in this space who, uh, no matter how successful they are, feel like they're missing meaning. their missing purpose. And I think that there's a really interesting thread to pull here about what meaning looks like in the 21st century. And Ellie and Ellie and Joe from the Meaning Alignment Institute, I think are two of the most articulate speakers that I've talked to that are doing work in discovering how to articulate, how to find meaning, how to look for meaning, how to attune ourselves to looking for meaning. Uh, and I think that there's something really beautiful here that I think goes hand inhand with the work that we're doing in the regen space around building mechanisms for allocating capital, but I

think that there's a there's a parallel here with how do we allocate meaning? How do we find meaning? And how do we embed it into the things that we're doing? So, I really enjoyed this conversation with Ellie and I think you're going to as well. >> Hi Ellie, how are you? Hi, Gavin. I'm good. So nice to be here. Thank you for inviting. >> Really excited for our conversation. Um I wonder if you could tee us off by telling us about your work exploring meaning in the 21st century. >> Huh. Okay, we're starting with the big questions.

>> Yep. Let's get in. >> Yeah. So, um I guess I'll just like tell a bit more about like how I got into this work. Um because it's a it's a very big theme and kind of like I think the journey illustrates a bit. I Yeah. Yeah, like 10 years ago when I was, you know, just kind of starting to become an adult and kind of like seeing like how do I face this like big complicated world that we're in, I um I had some kind of like initial kind of like very opening sort of like mystical experiences and I kind of like saw like that there was this like huge gap between kind of like how I felt inside that it was good and then kind of like the path that like society were like laying out for us. So I was like, "Okay,

am I only 20 and like do I need to kind of like already give up on like my soul and dreams just to kind of like fit in kind of like wherever like narrow box that I'm being told to fit in?" And so that kind of like kicked off this like crazy journey kind of like deep research arc of what you know what really is the nature of the good the nature of kind of like the things that kind of like really connect us back to life and and these like what's the kind of like felt experience of these things and then how do systems large scale systems like markets democracies but also kind of like schools and and more broadly kind of like different like cultural narratives and like different kind of like social groups and tribes. How do all these human systems, social systems honor,

protect or dishonor and like work against this feeling of of meaningfulness and and and goodness and like sacredness and I sort of like went many places for it at some point it was kind of like more um like deep research and philosophy. That's kind of what build like the backbone of the work that we're doing at MI. And then I went into AI because like obviously they're like dealing with these like questions of like what's the nature of the good and how do kind of like very powerful technological systems kind of like empower this and this empower this and now I kind of after an excursion in that world I kind of like went back more into how what are the sort of experiences protocols visions that can like really

help connect people to that experience and then how do we from there like use that connection to kind of like build these like more aligned uh systems. >> It feels like the topic that we're circling here is meaning in the 21st century, alignment between people and purpose. And I know that colloally in technology circles right now, we talk about alignment a lot in the context of AI, but actually having humans aligned with their purpose, I feel like is is maybe a centuries old alignment problem. Is that true reductionist?

>> No, absolutely not. And it's kind of I I would say that it's like more than purpose. So kind of one lens that I like looking at this is meaning as this like deep attunement and connection to life. And by life I mean the whole web of life. So it's us and our purpose but it's also like the tribe. It's the community. It's like the network of communities and it's the more than human world. So it's like a human to the earth >> um and and like all her beings. And in these like we I really like looking at it through the lens of kind of like we are like one node in this like huge organism this like huge system. We're like one cell of this like organism and in that there is an intelligence to like

that human and like more than human organism and we all like play a unique part that kind of like our personality and life experience is like perfectly like tuned around like we play this this part. And so it's kind of like really a job of like listening and kind of like positioning to like yourself and it is your purpose but it's kind of not your purpose and as your like sole kind of like individual act that you like create and then you kind of like empower yourself to like defend it but it's really this like co-created act that you're like doing with yourself with your tribe and with the whole of life.

>> What I think is interesting here is this attunement with I'm going to call it a a super oranism. uh that's a a word that Nate Nate Haggins uses which is the entire web of life and one of the things I think a lot about is the relationship to it between our sovereignty which is you know my power over my body my home my my sovereign ideally sovereign finances sovereign different parts of my life and then the interconnectedness and interdependence that comes from being a part of the web of life that that duality between the sovereignty and the interdependence I think is is like this liinal space in in which we live And um you know web 3 the people who work in crypto and AI that that I work with I think are very focused on sovereignty

and complete independence. Um but I think we're exploring a perspective of interdependence here that is complimentary uh to the sovereignty and and there's a little bit of a duality there that that I haven't totally untangled but I don't I don't know if you have anything to to say about that duality. I mean the duality is is like part of of creation at like every level, right? Kind of like that's the game that we're playing and it's good. >> So it's it's not something to kind of like be like it's not like either or but kind of like rather like where is the boundary? So even kind of like we're saying like we're an organism, right?

Like that organism is like nested with within like other organisms. So like us as individuals and then like us as part of the tribe that is like another organism and us as part of this like network of tribes and at even kind of like the cells in our organism they're kind of like one node in like a larger organism. They say that reality is fractal and at each of these levels there's the boundary that's like who you know defines who you are and then the kind of like boundaries kind of like the field that like connects all of it. I I think that that um just like being aware of like these two nodes and kind of like dancing between them, right? Kind of like are we doing too much, you know, like sovereignty like indivistic work at

the expense of the interconnectedness and at the same time like we've also seen kind of like how the 20th century like really failed us in in the sense of kind of like failing the individual in pro of kind of like this like big collective mass, right? So it's always um for me this is just like how we learn and kind of like the answer is always kind of like attunement and like listening you know because like when you're kind of like off that like do I feel like too much in like one extreme like it will feel off right like there will be kind of like a sense of you know either I'm like becoming like too isolated or I don't have like enough space and kind of like as soon as we like start listening to these cues those are like the opportunities to like not

just adjust but kind of like really refine how we understand this interaction between kind of like the organism and kind of like the nested web into which is is is it lives. >> What does that attunement feel like? I'd like to invoke for myself and for the audience feeling of attunement so that we can vibe on it for the rest of the episode. Is there an easy way to invoke it or to to >> think about what it feels like? >> Yeah. So maybe you can do this experiment with me and you can you can try to connect with a moment in your life that felt really meaningful.

Uh I don't know if you feel like sharing and if not we can like work without sharing it but kind of um just to kind of give it more like try to invoke this like moment like that's this like feeling of like deep deep deep meaningfulness >> and kind of how that made you feel like in your body >> and how that how that like created a type of like relating with the world. How did you feel yourself like living in that world? What's the quality of that experience? And what did you feel like it was possible at that time?

How did it feel like it was possible to relate to yourself, to others, to the world? And now you feel like you have that. Do you have that with you, Gabian? >> Yes. So maybe like I want to like link it back. So now we've like gone through like a very very very meaningful experience, but maybe try to think now of a meaningful experience that you've lived in the past days or the past week. So something that feels like more casual, more ordinary, doesn't need to be anything spectacular, but like something that kind of like

also brought up this feeling of like meaningfulness and how that how that made you feel and what felt possible by being in that experience. What sort of life felt possible? So you we have that. >> Yep. >> Usually I do this exercise in different groups. Um I've done it a few several times now and it's really beautiful and then like people share experiences and sometimes they're just kind of like

really big experiences. Also sometimes, funnily enough, there's also kind of like quite difficult and like challenging experiences people share about like the death of a loved one or kind of like a deep moment of like pain and transformation and also just kind of like very small like casual moments like a walk, you know, with their wives or, you know, just kind of like a smile from their kids. And I think kind of my reflection out of these is that this experience of attunement is presence. And there's big moments in your li in our life, ecstatic moments of like moments of like great beauty that they're kind of like boom, they're like snapping but us into presence. But in a way, presence is always like a choice that we can kind of

like have in every moment. And when we're doing that, we're kind of like we're choosing to be present. It's funny because um just by doing this exercise, I noticed that like I started kind of like really fast and like mental and now the energy of the conversation has like dropped. >> Mhm. It's more embodied. >> It's more embodied. It's slower. We're kind of like that's the attunement, right? Like attunement has like meaning. Sometimes they like meaning, truth, attunement. They have like a resonance and it's like an embodied resonance, right? And like when we're like paying attention to that, it's like what it's how life is guiding us towards what's good towards like what's true for

us. It's not always what's easy, right? Cuz like sometime that's like the transformational thing that kind of like really confronts you with like how you've been doing, you know, things wrong, but like it really kind of like it's what deepen deepens us like what's it's also for me kind of like the force of evolution, right? You know, one of the things I find so impressive about you and especially your backstory is that your interrogation of this very for for me it still feels a little bit hard to grasp, but your uh grasping of this of this realization that you know maybe our modern world, our contemporary world, there's meaning missing or you have to go looking for the meaning and the intuition to go seek it out and to

look for it is I think a I think a very teachable skill and and I think that that's one the your gifts, Ellie, is is your ability to to seek that seek that out and to to teach that to others. And so, in a way, there's maybe like a fractal meaning to uh to you teaching other people being more attuned into meaning and purpose. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. First of all, thank you. You know, I don't really think that I'm teaching. I would say that um if anything I'm reflecting like meaning for me is like the life force, right? Like it's just kind of like it is our birthright kind of when we're like in a in a healthy context like in a kind

of like how humans have lived for like many years, right? Kind of like connected to the earth and like in a tribe, you know, with like ritual, with community, with like the cycles of life like that is inherently meaningful. And this is like this is like how this like whole human like makeup is made for. So it's not however for many reasons we've kind of a society has like strayed away from kind of like this like very basic kind of like fundamental experience of like being human and now it's a process of kind of like re-remembering but kind of that remembering is not something for me that kind of you have to like strive for and like learn but kind of is really just like being reminded that like no

like at some point I say like we humans we have this kind of like natural sensor ers towards what's good and true and beautiful. And our job is to like reensitize ourselves to like build that again. And also to believe that we can live like that, that we deserve to live like that, right? that it's not kind of like, oh, you know, we're like so privileged in this kind of like modern world with like so much like abundance and kind of like also being like, oh, like that is not really what kind of like what the whole human experience is and believing that there is more to that, that we have the capacity for it is is is for me it's it's actually like quite

it's like both like the biggest thing and also like the most natural thing. And everyone that I spoke to from kind of you know like super high performing founders and you know like really successful people to kind of older people to like the most normie of the normie like they all resonate with these because it's just kind of like yeah like this is like the most human thing there is. >> Where I want to take us is meaning in the 21st century. So why is it so hard to find meaning in our contemporary world? Why is there people in the liinal web call this the meaning crisis? people are feeling a lack of purpose. And I and I feel like I see this in in friends that I know in the space who are struggling with their careers, but I also find it with people

who are massively successful and have built multi-million dollar protocols and even outside of tech. I I think I see it with my friends outside of tech. Why is there a meaning crisis? Why is it so hard to find meaning in the 21st century? Um, you know, we could like just spend like two hours on this, but um, how what's the compressed version? I think a compressed version is that we try to build I think like humanity like as we are, we're always like experimenting with like different modes of like social or organization, right? And usually like these modes when like a new mode comes about like when modernity came about is like highly meaningful and like functional.

But then as time passes and like as things continue to scale and just like the force of entropy starts makes it so that kind of like the games that it like these first created they were like functional meaningful they stop being so functional and they stop being so meaningful. So now we're like in these sort of like in between worlds, right? where kind of like the whole modern postmodern paradigm, they're like very obviously collapsing, but there's like not yet kind of like real alternatives that are kind of like fully built and legible. So, if you're like one of these like pioneers, you kind of like have to like go out on your own and you have to like navigate this like world of, you know, traps, you know, like like schemes that they're kind of like

promising you meaning but kind of like not really selling it. So it's it's a very complicated situation on like many levels. That's kind of like more like the like broad social analysis like institutional level. Then there's the fact that because it is like quite hard to live in this sort of society and it's actually like it's not just this sort of society. We have been there's kind of like centuries and centers and generations and generations of like life being very hard, >> right? even kind of like before premodern age and like before like empires and like wars and all that sort of stuff. And when things get very very hard, the kind of like the human response is to kind of like protect yourself from that hardship by like

building a sort of like numbness like desensitizing yourself to it just so you can kind of like push through things. And that's a good protective mechanism because it allows you to survive. But it's very bad for being like sensitive to this like whole like web of life thing that we're talking about which is essential to kind of like being attuned to meaning. >> So there's this kind of like inner desensitization with kind of like systems that like even when they're like more or less functional, they're still kind of like built on that desensitization. And then there's, you know, you can kind of like go on so many other things from like how how the the school system is like built to enforce that, you know, and kind of like create like obedient and compliant uh workers and citizens

instead of kind of like actually like meaningd driven individuals to like the whole kind of like bad parenting practices and just kind of like a lineage of like intergenerational like pass on trauma that kind of like perpetuate these cycles to the fact that you know modernity like completely even even kind of like coming from a good place but like created this kind of um this enchantment, right? And kind of like placed us in a world that is apparently like dead and like we're kind of like soul individuals kind of like floating through space and you know there's nothing more to life than that.

So, it's just this like completely like stacked um level of problems with the added with the added challenge that now on top we're kind of like really seeing how like all these things are failing us and then you add into the mix like exponential tech and climate change and kind of like AI distracting us and kind of like the potential like you know loss of jobs and like all these sort of threats. So, we're like extremely agitated and we're like dealing with like a very like heavy legacy and on top there's like no good yet established like legitimate paths which means that we're really strong and like the fact

that we're actually like doing you know that we're still here and like that these conversations are happening just is a proof of like how like strong and like how committed we are to kind of like like as a species to like figuring out al alternatives. Um and I'm quite hopeful of like us being able to like get out at least of like the meaning maze, right? Because in a way um something that I've learned in my research into meaning is that like challenge is like only fuel like what once it's kind of like when you're like looking at challenge and you're kind of really decide to like go through it is just fuel to kind of like go deeper and kind of like really integrate a much more fuller and complex deeper expression of life. So I think like as we go through these it will be beautiful

but kind of like the and it will be like hugely transformative for us as individuals and for us as a society but we have to go through this and right now it it is hard and there's kind of like no easy answers. >> Um >> yeah. >> Yeah. One of my my takeaways from your answer which I found like you know beautiful and had lots of threads that I could that I could pull in it is um I feel like the default setting if you're if you're just sort of like daydreaming through life is that meaning is hard to come by. But it feels like one of those things that once you become attuned to it and you learn to seek it and you bootstrap it in yourself and you start to get connected to a friend group that's attuned to it that it is possible

to find. But it's just not built into the default happy path in in a lot of our economic spaces or our community spaces in the 21st century. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's it's interesting because something that has been like really true for me is that the more I kind of like follow this path, the better my life has become in like such obvious magical like synchronistic kind of like blow your mind sort of ways. And I don't think this is because I'm special like at all because I've seen this happen to also the people around me, right? Right. And he was like, "No, we're just kind of like tapping into like what life is not that life could be, but like life is actually if we allow it to be like that. If we

don't like shield ourselves from it, you know, from from this magic and and this what what I've seen in me and also others around me like it's not just that it's like brought this magic, but it has made me much much much more capable to like face challenges. It it's made me more ambitious kind of like less easy to kind of like fall for, you know, like easy to to to be scared, you know, to kind of like be anxious. There's this um and in a way it kind of like once you like tap into this stream, it feels my experience of it that that it is an intelligent stream and that it will kind of like slowly like bring you and kind of like organize your lives to kind of like maximize meaning for you and like for those around you, right?

and and it's really just a job of like being committed and listening and kind of like keep showing up for it. But if you've never seen anything like that and even kind of like me, I remember before you know I went to law school and and when all my like openings I'm like oh my god what is this world sort of thing started I I dropped out and I'm from Spain. I'm from like a very, you know, I grew up in a very conservative uh background where, you know, it's absolutely unthinkable that like someone would like not go to university or like have a college degree at all. And it was funny because I was like, "No, I I want to do meaningful things." And kind of like talking to people and like seeing how people have built like their whole

like belief structure and the whole way of like navigating, you know, through the world in sort of like to defend themselves from the realization that it doesn't have to be like that, you know? And it's so painful because like when I would confront them, you could see kind of like their whole like belief system like shattering and like the violence that comes from that. Because if we allow ourselves to like really feel like the fact that like how we've like spent our life and how we built our society is like terribly bad, not just for ourselves but kind of like for the collective as a whole. It's just a really painful thing. It's like a really painful realization.

So I think those are kind of like the two sides of the same coin. kind of in a way like how good life can be but also like how painful it is the fact that we have not been living like this and that that and I think kind of on the other thing like we do need a lot of of people who embody this and who kind of like with maximum humility like be there as an inspiration for for others that like no there there are actually other ways and these ways like you can you can still be capable and function in the world and like accomplish things and and be creative and like live in community and and and that they can do that and kind of like display that to the rest of

the world. And you know, I think that when I'm sitting around and talking with regen web 3 mechanism designers, institution designers, I think the dream is to is to create new institutions or let's call them executions because maybe they're not even in institutions at this point that not only have that functional quality that we've that's really valuable um from from an economic perspective in in contemporary life, but also have the ability to imbue meaning and purpose into into those participants. And I feel like that to me that's the holy grail as a mechanism designer.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um this is Yeah. This is the work that me and and Joe uh from the Mini Alamin Institute and and Oliver and Ryan and others amazing team of like researchers and builders have been working towards for for a long time. And you know, it's funny cuz sometimes, you know, when you go down this this like road of like, oh, meaning is all there is and like purpose and like da da da um connection to life, it it's beautiful and it is true, but sometimes it can also be like a bit like individualistic or like inwards focused.

And the truth is that we live in like large scale societies and large scale societies need large scale solutions and systems. So it might be the case that like some people can just kind of like float through these crisis with kind of like their own like homestead and kind of like very meaning heavy like practices. I don't think that's how we collectively like get out of this. Um so in terms of like you know what is this kind of like effort to like build new new institutions and and how they can be like meaning aligned for me kind of like where where I landed uh and where we landed with institute is like I think there needs to be some like basically like institutions they're kind of like about human systems and they have they

have like embedded in at their center a conception of like human nature and up until I would say I was going to say up until recently but like Even still today officially the conception of like human nature that like most institution and like mechanism designers um design by is then is kind of like the homo economic the rational utility maximizing agent. >> Nothing about meaning, nothing about values, nothing about beauty, nothing about community, right? An isolated individual trying to kind of maximize their gains and their outcomes individually. So this like theory is like at the center of how we build the world and then like you know no surprise

that this is like the world that we got. So I think if I was to say like what are the keys for this like new effort in in institution building is like new theories like legitimate theories kind of like theoretical systems that like actually have the rigor like equal rigor as like the previous theories but that have a much more holistic whole like deep understanding of what humans are and and these like shout out to the amazing work that that they're doing at the mini alignment institute trying to really like create like the theoretical foundations of the shift and then so that's the theory and the theory is like so needed and it's amazing but there's

also kind of like the place that people are creating from because how I understand it and like also what I've what I've seen all the systems that we create and actually like everything that that we create they're just like really like expressions of like what we have inside. So numb desensitized isolated people will create numb desensitizing isolating systems. So yes, we do need the new set of theories, but we also need this like new set of like sensitivities both from like the people who are like building like the theoretical frameworks, but especially specially specially especially from the builders, from the leaders, from the founders, from the VCs, all this like new elite that like really

have this like huge responsibility in their hands and you cannot ask them to like take responsibility for like absolutely everything because that's impossible. But you can ask them to take the responsibility for like really what is the place that you're doing this from? How connected to like the full extent of life are you really? And in these I do have these like vision dream like part of what I called is to like work with like all these people and like create the sort of like communal containers where we can all like tap in into this life force into this meaning and then together make the commitment to like yes this is what we're standing for and we're like help to help each other to kind of protect this thing as >> as you're talking uh a lot of the concepts from exit the void are flashing

in my mind and just to introduce that artifact to the audience this is a video that you and others produced I think about four years ago and published on the STOA's YouTube about a movement for meaning. What would it mean to recognize how meaning's been corrupted and the containers for meaning have been corrupted and to transcend that in the 21st century. So, I'm going to drop a link to that video in the show notes, but uh it's another I think very nicely produced artifact of the meaning crisis and and how to think about it. And um I think that's that's how I discovered your work. It's really uh incredible storytelling and I I hope there's more artifacts like that coming. [laughter] >> Uh yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it it was it was um it was a

lot of work, but it also was at a time where um my mind didn't like really have the theories, but kind of like the whole kind of like achievement and like doing being able to like produce ambitious work. I didn't quite have it as practice as I as I did. So, God, I remember the whole production was it did take a lot of me. Um but >> yeah, what what was your question regarding the video? >> Uh well, I think I was just wanted to share exit the void with the audience uh was the the the primary intent there. But the the concept from exit the void that that I'll bring to this conversation is this idea of containers for meaning being separate from the meaning themselves. And and this was a new concept to me when I first learned

about it, but basically this idea that you know the the sources of meaning that humanity have might be something like connection with a loved one or connection with nature or connection with the divine. And these get put into containers that deliver them. Like for nature it might be a park or with the divine it might be a church or even like a mega church or friends and family might be work or church or other community containers. And this idea that containers can be corrupted, I think really resonated with me as they get sort of captured by their KPIs and or like certain individuals and and don't serve the meaning that they had anymore.

So it just felt like that was a useful thing to to bring to the conversation is um you know what do the the new containers look like that are either uncorruptible or uh are better containers for meaning than the ones that we've inherited from previous generations. Yeah, just just to kind of uh maybe like clarify like containers, they're really like not like bad or good. They're just like the vehicle of like creation, right? So kind of like there's a space of like experience and like potentiality and then kind of like that needs to be like expressed in in a in a in a vehicle in a container. Um but in in that expression, you know, like that's kind of like when things can sometimes get corrupted. So especially after time passes and like scale passes

because like entropy will do its job and then that's when when corruption is most likely to happen. Yeah. So like in terms of of containers containers for meaning in the 20 is that what you've been what you're asking me? >> Yeah. you know, the more I reflect on these and and you know, I'm someone that like has spent like the past years kind of like deep in in in tech and you know, the meaning is like an AI research institute and we're doing this like crazy research on like artificial super wisdom that you know like is able to kind of like um broker win-win negotiations and it's

like meaning economies and like all these kind of like very elaborate like big schemes and I think they're beautiful and I do think that they're like part of the movement that like we collectively are like part of and that kind of like life is like moving towards right technology and big systems like yes but then even even kind of or perhaps because I I've been spending like so much time around this I think something that I like really kept coming back to kept realizing was that like our makeup as humans is not like it's not that different that kind of like the humans that kind of

like lived in the paleolithic you know like many many many years ago and that like the makeup for like meaning was created then the makeup for like health right so in this sense like meaning is Lindy like there's kind of like a few things that [laughter] there's a few things that repeatedly like make people's lives meaningful, right? And this is like being around loved ones, feeling seen by those loved ones, being part of a community, a community that like you feel like you have like a role in it, that you have like purpose because it's like purpose is not an isolated thing. is like something that you're like bringing as an act of service to these loved ones and to feel that like those others are there to like support you and to see you in that quest

and that you're like mutually like supporting each other and that just as you part of this like community, you're also like part of like a larger community of this like more than human world. We are like part of the earth, right? Like we are part of kind of like the natural systems. We're like a part of kind of like all the animals that are there and even kind of like the ancestors and like the new generations and this kind of like really like the whole universe of like potential, right? And of like this great mystery that we're just like one part of it and things as simple as telling good stories, you know, and like singing and dancing together and kind of like ritually like engaging periodically in like threshold experiences, right? like

experience that like push us to our edge and kind of like reshape our consciousness so we can come back to center like more aligned. These like more like primitive like indigenous things, they're just kind of like so embedded in like who we are as humans that they're just like, you know, I'm not necessarily like a paleoided person, but I like do appreciate kind of like where like things are like taking shape in in in their um argument, [snorts] you know? I think that like I would say like those are like the basic containers of meaning. So when I think like how does that look in the 21st century, I think like okay which are the sort of community structures like guilds like new because the truth

is that you know now we live in a like globalized world and yes some people might choose to kind of like settle down with just kind of like a few people and that will be their village and that will be their community but like for many of us that's not the case. you know, I live between like I don't know like five different places right now, right? Like my tribes are like spelled all over and they are like my tribe, right? So kind of like how do you delineate the boundary? But still like these this phenomenon like still needs like a sense of like tribe and like organization even the fact that now we have like in terms of like purpose right like I keep meeting you know like fellow you know like sisters and like brothers in arms you're one of them but like I've had the

the honor and pleasure of like meeting many others. So like are there sort of like guilts, right? Like associations that kind of like are really there to like empower those individuals and to kind of like make them feel that they're like working for something greater than like any of themselves and they're like supported in that bigger task in terms of like new like rituals and and experiences and and and kind of like collective threshold ecstatic moments. I've lived in Berlin for many years, so kind of like I the whole raving thing and I could see, you know, it's funny because sometimes people from the outside like they just see it as a party thing, but like inside the raving community, there's like a very like big sort of like political uh consciousness, right? As in like we are doing something

different and there like something very prominent about that. So I think there's just like or like all the kind of like new festivals that are emerging. So, I think there's like a lot a lot of of movement in in that direction that kind of like we're all like tapping into this, you know, like the desire for like community, the desire for like stressful experiences for ritual. We're like all tapping into this field and and expressing it differently. I don't think that like anyone, you know, I haven't yet seen something like it's exactly that, you know, like you've got all the solution and I don't think it's about that, but I I do see the energy. And then maybe kind of like what I would say last is that like all these things happen. There's like this like cohesive field has um how like society is like

organized around these fields where like through shared story a story that kind of like names all those things and names a role that you play in these things and how you're supposed to kind of like go around it. So I think that's also something that there's no like coherent story for these like no emerging yet. there's kind of like many different voices, but like that's also something that like I'm expecting to see and probably it will be like all these different voices like all of us are creating these like stories and like reviving all stories. Um yeah, I think I think it's a it's a very it's a very exciting time. >> Yeah. Well, you know, I hope that people out there who are building new institutions in web 3 will take a look at this work. And I think there's there's a lot of interesting things that

I that I want to take away from what you said, but the the primary one here is not designing for homoeconomicists and designing for homo sapiens, designing for for meaning. And that means revisiting the parts of meaning that are lendy and that have evolved into our civilization for for millennia. I'm curious if uh as we're going into closing, if there's anything I didn't ask that you want to say. uh if there's if there's there's anything else in your body of work that you feel like is present and that you want to bring to this audience.

>> Yeah, I guess I just want to um I think I said this but I want to like reh highlight it. I do think that this is the biggest work that can be done this century, right? This kind of like real like the most epic quest that like we could possibly do as humans. And is a quest that's like not just about like progress and it's like not just like about yourself. is about like really like deepening this connection with life and kind of like what is possible actually like redefining deepening like what it means to be human and [snorts] um in this quest I see that like all the challenges that we're now facing they're just like invitations to kind of like

look for the diamonds kind of like what are what are these hiding right like what may have we missed because kind of like as we go through them that's kind of like where like the new learning where the new opportunities these like the new visions like come from and it's not about some you know some this something that kind of like I've been in discussion sometimes with people because when you're doing this like large scale work of like uh designing like new institutions and like new paradigms sometimes we think it's about like avoiding all the negative consequences and like all the pain and sometimes like you first need to kind of like feel them and like confront that directly just so you can like metabolize and like build a new thing. So I would say to people who are listening like what like what what

is that for them right kind of like what is the edge like where is this like the challenge like the darkness like the pain and kind of like what might this challenge be trying to tell us because that's where the diamonds are and and then I would say that really like if once you do this work with kind of like full commit and devotion. In a way, the work takes care of you because it it is bigger than you and it does take care of you. And when you do that, life does become like beautiful and magical in completely unexpected ways.

And um it offers like a new paradigm for being a builder, for like ambition, for kind of like collective projects that I think it's kind of both much more exciting, much more human, but like equally if not more like ambitious than grand as kind of like the default kind of like Silicon Valley like startup road and that I know that there's kind of not a proper like ecosystem for this established, but this is something that um uh we're working on and that I believe that like also like Gitcoin might be able to kind like pioneer this new sort of ecosystem. Um so yeah to believe in it.

>> Yeah, I I think that the more that I travel on this journey, I think I'm eight years into Gitcoin at this point. Um the more I'm learning that the schools that or the the skills that I learned when I was learning computer science and software are only going to get me a very small portion of the way. And there's a lot of learning about um history and society and community and in listening and sensemaking um that that I wish I'd known about when I was younger, but hey, better late than never. >> Yeah. Yeah. And also this is not like a learning that like you're supposed to do on your own, you know, like we're supposed to kind of like discover together and inspire each other and kind of like really like build and and and feel this together. So, um, >> well, one of the things I think that,

um, is an intersection between my work and your work, I was thinking about this the other day while I was prepping for this episode, is, um, you know, if new mechanisms are going to be used to allocate capital to the commons, we're going to make sure the commons are funded and that there's, you know, energy flowing through them. Um, but we're also sort of looking for meaning and looking for ways to, uh, discover meaning. It felt like maybe uh there's a way to bundle both of those in rituals and community containers um in such a way that that they can complement each other and feed off of each other. The sort of like software the the Neo uh mechanisms for allocating capital that we're creating uh can be coupled with I want to call it meaning allocation but

that feels almost like too utilitarian. And so I think that there's an interesting overlap in the design space and and you know I hope that we come up with something that's useful and and uh and exciting there but I think this is the start of that journey. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I would love to kind of like properly explore this in depth just to make sure that I understand um your question. So you feel that there's kind of like a possible kind of meaning allocation mechanism that also kind of like because I've been thinking about about the meaning allocation and how would you do it but I did not think of kind of like the more like ritual kind of like collective experience aspect.

Are you saying that there's a possible intersection there? >> I think that there's a ven diagram there and that there's an intersection there and I I want to discover what it is. I think rituals um in which we come together and we figure out what matters >> um is, >> you know, a possible way that we allocate >> allocate money and meaning uh together in a coupled way. >> Yeah. >> It wasn't a question. It was maybe more of a of a provocation uh as we're closing. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean things like this have been done in in like tribes and like indigenous societies like forever because like they had resources and they had to kind of decide how to allocate the resources. Um there's even this um yeah I think like a format I like saving

pools thing where like people come together and they kind of like share their stories and that's how they decide. So, I think there's like a lot of um like already like material out there and I think it's also about something that I've been thinking kind of really making sure that individuals are in like their like unique place in their like web of life. So, kind of like this like purpose aligned individuals that kind of like really have like ramifications all over their community is a big part of what I feel is um um important in terms of like meaning allocation.

>> Yeah. Well, there's more to discover there and maybe we'll uh we'll ship something together in the future, but for now uh I should get back to my primary job as podcast host, which is uh wrapping up the episode. Uh where can people find find you online if they want to learn more? >> Yeah, so Twitter is the best place. It's uh Twitter_hain Hi N. Um, and yeah, I look forward to see what comes out of these and and excited about what you're building the interactions between like our visions and like your whole community.

>> Same. Well, uh, if you're if you're listening to this episode and you're, uh, feeling more attuned, then, uh, check out Ellie on on X and, uh, there's a link in the show notes. I also put a link to the Exit the Void video in the show notes, which I highly recommend checking out. Thanks so much, Ellie. Appreciated the conversation. >> Thank you so much, Kevin. It was lovely to be here. >> Okay, we just heard from Ellie Han. Really inspired by Ellie because I think that she's really attuned into how to search for meaning in the 21st century. And I feel like she's a teacher that is teaching me how to look for it in my own lives. And I hope that you as a listener gained a couple nuggets of wisdom about that as well. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it if you check out

the links in the show notes and to learn more about Greenpill at greenpill.network. If you value what we're doing, please subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and share it with a friend. Until next time, keep building, keep experimenting, keep coordinating. Peace and love. Goodbye.