Rollups Unleashed #15: Full Replay & Recap!

Transcript

welcome back to the rollup High Roller Community as always nothing on the rollup is to be construed as Financial advice we are just an Educators in the defi space toss us a quick like give us a share a repost send it to a friend who may want to watch this and finally give us a sub or a follow it means the world to help support credibly neutral educational content in def5 we're here to educate Empower and enrich you and let's jump in all right let's get this thing started I don't know if I could that elevator music elevator music started a couple times over so I I think we got our taste of that um yo let's get um Monty up here from Catalyst yeah definitely I sent out a few a few

invites uh see Arun in the audience and I see Monty there too uh Monty got an invite all right Arjun is up um we've got Max from connect here Hart from Uma what's good Hart what's up guys what's up uh we've got fig from squid much love yeah our jun's up here now uh we've got Sue from IBC gmgm hello he hey um that's probably Kate on the mic

at Axel yep hey guys what's up and who do we have from uh from synonym is that beach ball yes sir that's me how's it going good man quite a lineup here I'm uh I'm excited I just did a uh an hour on uh stablecoin um and cbdc so I'm I'm properly warmed up that one got me fired up talking about Central Bank digital currencies and I think this one will be a little bit more fun and uh and thought-provoking so uh excited to get into it Andy what do you think maybe we'll do like a quick round of intros um and then we'll we'll uh we'll kind of kick it

off cool cool so um I mean a lot of I'll essentially everyone up here kind of needs no introduction so I'll just kind of pass it around maybe we'll start with heart and uh if you want to take just a quick word um either introduce yourself or the protocol or anything that you know you're finding particularly exciting at the moment we'll take like 30 seconds and go around and then uh we'll dive into the meat and potatoes of this and maybe a fun fact about your uh your protocol oh man uh I go first I'll try to keep this less than 30 seconds because there's a lot of us uh I'm Hart I'm a co-founder of a cross protocol uh we are a bridge that is intent based um

which is a buzzy word but let's let's lean into it um and yeah I guess I'd be most interested in kind of debating the pros and cons of this intent-based bridging architecture that's focused on transferring token value Kate hey guys this is Kate from axler got got kicked off the main handle so I now live on the Axel intern handle but I see why kids here so I gotta be I gotta be smart and behaved on this AMA but yeah K here from axler um axler is a blockchain that connects block chain um blockchains to to um basically deliver secure cross chain communication all across web 3 so that's you know

language um consensus whatever agnostic acting as kind of the infrastructure layer to connect um you know basically everything that we can build in web three nice fig GM GM GM hey guys uh fig I'm the co-founder of a project called squid where you can swap any token across any chain in under 20 seconds um we're covering most the evm chains and the cosmos and most of our messages go through Axel and we got some IBC as well um and yeah super excited to be here super lineup you got

Max GM GM everyone this is Max from Connex uh Connex is a cross chain intent protocol uh that allows you to move tokens and pass generalized messages without the use of oracles or a set of validators and so these enables to build applications that can interact with any chain in the most secure way uh super excited to be here and and joining the discussion and Su big Su in the house hi um I'm Susanna I'm the product lead for the IVC team at in chain IBC stands for inter blockchain

communication protocol it's probably one of the oldest and most uh battle tested as they like to say um interoperability protocol um which is a generic protocol to connect blockchains together but its first use case has been in the cosmos ecosystem where it's currently connecting over a 100 chains um but it it's a it's a generic protocol that can be used with any any blockchain sweet um if we experience any uh uh X or spaces issues just hopefully it just keeps going I think AR might

have just got booted but it's going to come back uh next we have Monty from Catalyst hey guys uh I'm Monty from Catalyst uh where I'm leading PD and integration so catalyst is a new cross train amm that facilitates atomic swap between asset and different blockchains excited to be here dop line up sweet um and beachball hey everybody I'm beach ball founder of cym Finance uh we're building a cross chain money market and we've got a real focus on ux first making cross chain transactions far easier than they have been today uh and we've got a big focus on routing stable coin liquidity through surle cctp really happy to be here and Arun is back

I think hello can you hear me yes yeah I think the lineup is so stacked that Twitter felt they don't need me here but yeah I'm Arjun I I lead research at Lei Lei is a cross Chain Bridge andex aggregator uh so some of our clients include metamask and Phantom and bridges like con connect and across here uh are also integrated into a stack so happy to be here awesome all right guys the name of the space is multi- ruup interoperability unpacked um so no better way to start than to discuss the state of rollup interoperability as as we have it now um obviously we there's

tons of different uh rollups in existence now from uh ZK edms ZK optimistic rollups tons of uh uh choices to kind of bridge and to use with with with different trade-offs um and really just trying to open up this to a concept where um that I've just kind of heard of recently but have been kind of exploring more where we almost can get to a world where we abstract this change of rollups and these different uh chains and I hate to just start stra with abstraction but we're we with so many robs coming out the the reality is to connect all these it has to feel seamless and be seamless um so let's start with like what the technology is um that you know you guys

are providing to make an an impact in this space there's a lot of us on here so if if if you kind of um answer a question we'll try to to uh direct it to one and then kind of let it flow from there feel free to just jump in um but you know if two people jump on just try to be polite um but yeah I'm curious what you guys are building to kind of make your impact in making this rollup interoperability World more seamless more abstracted and a better user experience and I I have a feeling this conversation for 90 minutes is going to take us on a lot of turns so we're going to start with heart and um and we will just jump in from from there and again feel free guys to just U openly chat after uh you know each speaker is done

thanks um yeah man there's uh such a stack lineup this is uh gonna be hard um I guess what can we say here so I agree that we need to abstract away uh these rollups because there's just going to be too many chains that user don't want to know about um and so maybe I'll paint of vision and then some of the other speakers can add to it um the idea I think where we want to get to is a user clicks a button uh in their dap browser whatever um and that button does something on another chain and they don't even know that they talk to that other chain um and for what it's worth I'm biased to think that like this

intense based approach is probably the right way to do this where clicking that button um the user is signing a transaction um that is some sort of order uh like a cross limit order or some sort of like intent to execute something on a different chain um and then behind the scenes there is some filler relayer solver Network that goes and uh executes that order on the destination chain um and then there is some other system um that uh has escrowed the user funds and releases them to this relay layer or filler um once this is done so that's kind of the vision I'm seeing as how we get to uh chain abstraction um and this is the

direction that cross is pointing in um but I will shut up and let other people have their own take yeah Max I know that you guys were kind of pushing chain abstraction do you have a a specific thesis as to how this applies to rollup interrupt yeah I think we are we're pretty aligned with what har was saying the idea that users will care or have to think or know about all the things that happen in the background right on the in the technological stock is a little bit contradictory to what today happens in on web 2 right people do not need to know on which server on which storage they have they have the the the website that they're using are deployed on and something similar needs to happen on the

in the web Tree World uh and the user experience is only getting will only get worse if we don't reach a status where the the rollups are abstracted right we're going to see hundreds and then thousands of layer twos layer 3es on top of them it's going to be very chaotic if we if we don't build a better experience and yeah the the best way to start is by enabling interactions with other rollups other chains without the user having to think or realize that they are doing that and that's when we get to a seamless transition from Web Two to web three and onboarding all this famous extra billion users that we've been talking about for

years yeah just to just to kind of hop in there and exactly build on on what you just said you know like when you hop on the internet right the average web 2 user when you're using you know you're on Instagram you're not thinking about how you know TCI pip HTTP HTS TLS all these protocols and kind of this this stack is like powering your search and your you know browsing experience it's just kind of there under the hood working right and so ideally I think we should get to a point where no user is like thinking about which ZK rollup they're using because it should all just be kind of working seemlessly in the background like as infrastructure right as intended um and I think you know there's an important distinction between interoperability and composability right like basic interoperability is

kind of technically you could argue a thing already right like sending an asset from one Ro up to another via ethereum which you can kind of do right now it's just really slow whereas like compos ability right like the ability to initiate a transaction um you know um from more than one role up so like I think the the ultimate goal should be synchronous communication you know and composability which requires the development of new standards and protocols that you know we can kind of all build on to create this really seamless user experience um it's kind of my my take on that um I I I'll I'll give my take um I don't think interoperability should

be defined as token bridging that's um actually just one use case but real interoperability is I think more on how you would to me Define it as composability um but that's I guess just like a nonga distinction um but I think if we're you know this this end State thinking about the end user experience is kind of yeah uh I definitely agree with that but then I think we should also consider um why we also building in blockchain in the first place um and to me you know the core values of decentralization um not adding in additional kind of trust assumptions to

kind of have that long-term vision of of blockchain systems is something really important and should be a long-term goal that we also strive for um so I think you know adding an additional trust assumptions to just achieve token bridging is is probably fine as like a short to medium term for fulfilling those kind of use cases but um we should also think about the longterm purpose of these systems in the first place so what one if go ahead Monty and then F will go after no I was just joking just saying uh one ABC on E like waiting we would love to use it as

well yeah but that's because of you know there's been decisions in the ethereum protocol which haven't made like client support trivial right um that that and that's like you know decisions of the ethereum protocol and it's partially due to what the ethereum protocol is right it's a general purposing smart contract platform so why would they actually prioritize interoperability because you know you you should be able to build all your applications in one place yeah we've ended up with this world where we have rollups on ethereum and they they have these sort of enshrined bridges

which are more secure and they end up being where you collateralize a lot of assets but then we have these liveness networks over the top and the Inn protocols and whatnot to to create create good user experiences for people so we can try to have a little bit of a best world of Best of Both Worlds of high security but also good user experience and I don't think those two things are necessarily on a Continuum against each other but that's just how we're at the moment um yeah I agree with everyone what everyone said though so far um my idea of the abstraction thing is we just released today actually a um a kind of demo PC where you can buy any any nft on

I think six or seven chains most of the ones that openc supports um with any token and the idea being that you you don't have you don't need to know what chain the nft is on and you don't need to know what chain your tokens on um you just go onto a product website you select the product you want to buy and you click buy and the same way you you can pay with whatever card you want in the normal World whether I've got an Australian dollar account or a US dollar account I never think about it I just put my card in and pay and I get my I get my um my product so I think we're we're really close like at least the experience that we put out you you get

to buy nfts in 20 seconds with any token on any chain it's it's like a very single chain looking experience the next question is probably like how do we scale that to if rollups as a service really take off like can we can we scale that to thousands of rollups will they be um you know longlasting some of these rollups and it's all futuristic stuff though so I think I think we're getting really close like everyone here on this spaces is doing really good work and where our like our protocols applications are getting pretty Advanced now so yeah I'm feeling really good about interoperability generally uh so on the Chain abstraction point I think I have a question so it's

like when I think about an application I first go and check which chain it is on right and then I Bridge funds there like that's the present day ux but when you guys say chain abstraction uh what does the user experience look like for a user because at the end of the day there has to be some chain right yeah but I don't think the user needs to know or care it's like like maybe this is a bad analogy but um when I'm on a website I don't know whether the website's being hosted on Google gole cloud or AWS or Microsoft AER right and I'm sort of thinking of all these rollups as infrastructure to host your application but the user doesn't care what that is um they do care to the extent that they

end up having like funds that are in custody on that chain and so I think that there's more work to do uh to kind of like abstract all that away but like uh you know to Fig's Point uh you know you can imagine I just click a button and I buy an nft and I just bought an nft and I own it now um it might be true that I own it on a specific rollup uh but uh like from my perspective that's all I want to have happen and I yeah leave it at that so like my followup would be where is the you user buying this NFD like they have to be onbed onto some application or wallet right yeah

well I mean um maybe Arin that's uh opportunity right um but I do think that there is uh an interface here that is where users are uh interacting um and I I think that some obvious starting points of this um could be like like like aggregators or like Unis swap or something like that but increasingly you could just imagine that um there is uh any dap has its website um and the user goes there and there's um some SDK uh that allows the user to interact with that CH that daps roll up um but from any chain um and so I kind of think

that could be a world where it you you really are abstracting rollups into um a form of like a database um that's powering that application and the user really doesn't have to care uh where it is or how it works super cool uh um kind of moving into the next uh uh realm of thought um was it well is is this kind of situation where um you know users have their have their preferred uh home of choice chain of choice rollup of choice and you know you can all kind of think uh where that is for your own activities on chain and um you know I I was kind of thinking

about if there's a a way to to kind of bring users from uh from kind of mainnet I think and from other ecosystems to rollups um and so I'm thinking about more of from a lens of like a deployment perspective um from you know how you guys look at which chains to support whether you support different rollups on the bridging side or from the application side whether you use you support different evm l1s evm l2s will and then also potentially nonm compatible uh you know ecosystems like you know Stark net and things and so the

question is kind of um from a from a from a deployment and a kind of obtaining user perspective how are you guys going about thinking where where to uh you know where to deploy next or how to bring users from a different ecosystem that you're not that your current Gap or uh bridge if you will um uh protocol isn't exactly reporting is there some sort of like thesis that you guys have to that you guys are building towards and maybe you could share some of that thesis and also hear some of the other team's thesis as far as deployments supporting different chains and then also how to do that in a secure fashion um to kind of bring users from you know their current home which I like

to think about as if it's not you know uh somewhere that has high levels of you know security decentralization speed and cost the whole trilemma at least to some degree then it's you know there's probably a better place um so the point is and the question is how do you guys go about the deployment thoughts the the um you know onboarding of new chains and bringing them in um and then you know how how do you think about that from like a thesis perspective as to where this multi- rollup ecosystem is headed um and we haven't heard from uh beach ball so we'll start with synonym and then as soon as he's done uh we can uh let it rip so thanks yeah for sure I mean from a deployment perspective like assuming

we're referencing the current state of things where we don't have that kind of unified um interface to connect to composable rollups just yet um you know we we make the assumption that users are going to have to jump through a couple Hoops to move ecosystems um the way we look at it is um one is it aligned with our thoughts on security overall I mean at launch we're going to be supporting just eth arbitrum and optimism um that said we do have plans to deploy way um to Cosmos and IBC enable change shortly after that um but yeah our first deployment characteristic is um security levels uh does it does it meet the thresholds of our existing chains uh second to that is usually more Community

Centric um active users engagement and in our context um defi lending and borrow activity um and then the third thing that obviously anyone at the application Level would face is just infrastructure support um so one does our messaging protocol of choice work here does it work well um you know is there robust support there um and then second to that just given our our focus on on stable coin liquidity is cctp there um that's generally how we look at a deployment um but I think that that notion of jumping to new chains pulling users in from rollups I won't say trivial but it becomes significantly easier in the kind of future that we were talking about um in the previous

line of questioning which is is kind one unified inter rollup wallet interface we'll call it um the the question of deployment becomes a lot easier in in that future so definitely working towards that very cool and and and I know there's different technical specs that are required as well as like overall development specs from uh a a point of view from more of the of the messaging protocol so would' be Keen to kind of hear how how you guys think about it from a a security perspective as well as from a trade-off perspective if you know going from um obviously we have Su here from IBC so bridging IBC and evm is you know there's a set of trade-offs you have to deal with you know rollup to rollups there are um and

this this must go into your thinking when it comes to uh deployments and and kind of uh where users are and how to access them in the most secure fashion yeah definitely I mean we're we're building in a pretty modular way so like selecting our our messaging partner isn't going to be something that would would necessarily be permanent forever as standards evolve we can always adapt um to whatever makes the most sense for us um I think in terms of adopting some sort of interop standard um from an application Level perspective it it it really comes down at the end of the day just to um the potential for overall system liquidity um and how well under how well understood and battle tested the standard is um you know I I think we

would be doing wrong by users to make any leaps of assumption or J on on either of those fronts so that's that's really what it comes down to for us but happy to hear anyone else's view on uh what would make what would make teams select certain standards over others um I got a little bit of a spicy take that's maybe maybe it'd be cool to get the group's perspective but uh my my general take here is that you want to send as few messages between chains as possible so I'm like a messaging minimalist in a sense and what I mean by that is I look at um on your messaging layer sending messages um securely should be expensive or slow um like it's

hard trying to securely send messages quickly and cheaply um seems very difficult if not impossible um consensus between chains is hard and um doesn't mean it can't be done right but it's um it should be done rarely and so my general view around this and curious to uh to get people's takes is can we build other layers on top um fig said something so sort of similar to this uh can we build other fast liquidity layers on top that are secure that have like correct economic incentives um to fulfill the user and give the user a good experience but effectively minimize the need to actually send messages

between chains um and this is sort of the design philosophy that we're trying to approach it across where we do the intent layer um fast liquidity fill thing with relayer fronting money um to users but we only we verify them in batches basic slowly meaning um we have very few messages to support uh a lot of activity so curious people's takes well I think in Cosmos there's cross chain messages happening uh every day but it's due to the different like blockchain architectures and being power by tender or comic bft

consensus um make with instant finality is clearly like a big contributing factor and yeah it's just not going to be the the same in the the rollup realm of of uh of things um but but I think the question is why should we kind of I'm interested why that's your perspective that we shouldn't be sending cost chain messages frequently uh it seems like uh is it just because we're constrained by the existing systems so this is like the IBC perspective here is I think very different because IBC does send messages quickly securely and relatively cheaply but like that's because of the wonders

of tenderman and like the architecture and all that and you can understand this you understand this obviously far better than I do but uh I think it's pretty cool um in evm land or with rollup land like uh sending sending a message costs gas and or takes time costs money and takes time and it like should because you it should be something that is secure um so how can you get around this well if we focus and this is like an interesting um Edge case of why I'm kind of so focused on token bridging is if you're focused on token bridging you can have this third party the filler solver relay whatever we want to call them front money um to the user so they fill the user on the destination chain with

without any message getting sent um but their cost here is there's a loan they've lent money um and then if You' if you're able to do that you can batch together these relayer repayment instructions in batches that you verify slowly um and so now you minimize the amount of messaging you're doing here um but you're still giving the user a fast experience and the way I like this from a security perspective is now that we have time uh to like we can take a long time and also spend money on sending messages we can choose the most secure option to send those messages while still kind of advertising that cost over all these

user transactions we batched but then I guess the the question is do we believe interoperability in the long term is just going to be token bridging um are we just going to be moving different tokens from rollup to rollup all the rollups are just going to have basically the same apps um I'm I don't know if that's the kind of Final End state of blockchains maybe it is um but then then if if it's not then I think General message passing becomes more important of course so I think yeah I think it's a really like this is a really interesting

point here that's like hard to predict so I think I could argue fairly convincingly that the main use case today um is moving tokens or moving gas to pay for something and like maybe doing an action so it's like uh I want to move e to this chain and buy an nft um so it's all value Centric um there is a really important use case for generalized messaging here which is like passing protocol parameters let's say so Unis swap governance votes on something on ethereum inet and we need to pass those parameters to some other chain we definitely need generalized messaging for that use case but I am curious to see where we need generalized messaging

for most user transactions like how important that ends up being or if like 95% of kind of enduser activity falls into this uh you know move value and like do a thing with it category because if that is true that like most of the activity falls into the move Value Plus do thing um category then maybe we can design a better experience by focusing on the token transfer use case um even though it is a subset of generalized interoperability maybe it's an important enough subset that it's worth specializing in yeah I also think that right now we really focus on token

transfer as being kind of escrow and mint or mint and B but there is also kind of a message passing based token transfer like Atomic swaps where you don't actually move the tokens from a specific domain you just change the account holder and I think right now we're very we're very much in the you know Esco escrow Mint or the mint and burn phase but I think as we start to see different user groups coming into the ecosystem specifically like Enterprise users or even if you've got like cbdcs um they probably want more control over their token and keeping it in

within their controlled domain so I could see the atomic swap use case becoming a bit more prevalent and then General message passing becomes increasingly important but that's just you know one hypothesis of of what things could become uh you're right like none of us know we don't have crystal balls um but but yeah I think right now it's just because we we focus on that specific use case but but I think my my view is like we really don't know and we should be more flexible to prepare for the unknown future yeah just to I guess hop in here you know like right now obviously

the biggest use case is just transferring you know assets um and you know that that being the case that kind of being the folks of a lot of the products that we're being that you know that we're seeing you know that doesn't really lend itself to the larger Vision that a lot of people talk about of like onboarding the next billion users onboarding you know the next wave of of web three users and for us at axer like we we like to think about this idea of like a super app right like you can do everything in one app right like we chat you know for better for worse um you know in uh you know in some of these these big super apps like you can do everything in the app right like you can log in you can make reservations you can have your friends transfer you money you

know can you can buy like everything can be done all in one app and you know for blockchain to kind of come together you know different projects across different protocols across different ecosystems to come together and be able to produce something similar or you know ideally better right we need to kind of move Beyond just this thought of like transferring value and transferring assets and that's where General message passing comes in right that's where composability comes in to be able to offer users you know this the super app right all in one spot to do anything you want across different projects um you know aggregate different use cases um and not have to go from this wallet to this wallet you know to this exchange from this deck to this Central exchange you know um so if that's kind of the

goal right if there's and it's it really comes down to is there going to be a need for that right is there going to be desire for that is that what people care about or are we going to see this use case of people really just want to transfer value that's kind of the main goal we think you know the web 3 super app is possible we think you know it should be something that we're working towards but you know we're providing you know the infrastructure for developers to build that out but It ultimately comes down to you know what are people going to use how does the you know user experience lend itself to mass adoption of that use case and is there a desire for it you know for for the the the end user what yes yeah go ahead heart all I was going to say is like I

think this is a really interesting point that I also don't know the answer to but I do have a sort of spicy take that building a decentralized application that spans multiple blockchains and like has to read and manage State on multiple blockchains at the same time seems very difficult and like not exactly uh it seems like a hard thing to program and support and um just tough it's like the whole idea of having atomicity and like a single blockchain that I can know how transactions are executed Computing seems like a much nicer environment to develop in and if we do have most of the applications be single chain apps um that's that minimizes our need for

arbitrary messaging between chains um doesn't mean that there's no need for it like if I want to do um some sort of cross chain uh lending Market I I'm going to need generalized messaging but I'm I'm very curious to see what applications get developed and whether they actually want to span multiple blockchains at the same time or just stay focused on one app um uh and building in one environment well yeah exactly like it's it's really difficult to do right it's not like a very simple use case to solve for and so for us our kind of you know ethos is like create really simple and effective and Powerful developer tools right an SDK that developers can leverage to go cross chain from day one have you know have

security built in right you shouldn't have to configure your own security um and then by providing a really you know solid developer experience and developer toolkit and an SDK that they can easily kind of deploy then from there you're able to then start creating these like really seamless and Powerful user experiences right but it's it's not one without the other and one is lends itself necessarily to the other right to have great user experience you have to give developers a really strong kind of toolkit and themselves have a great experience and a simple experience to build you know applications that can do things that today we may not even be able to imagine right the web three can do and beach ball I don't want to throw you too deep into the tech weeds but do

you have any thoughts as to the uh the cross chain you know application space um as far as kind of how you look to approach that from effectively doing you know a cross chain lending in the in a in a form where a user can deposit and then borrow on a separate CH what do you have any thoughts for har and yeah I think in general um we expect over the long term that even though there might be um situations where transacting within an application entirely on a single chain might be favorable um that the one thing that our entire team agrees on is that no one ever agrees um and that standards will likely never become uniform um like they

rarely do and many other fields um or Industries um and so being inherently prepared for basically any set of users that are always going to want to transact across more than one chain within your single application is is likely the right the right path to go on um you know I think the the web free or crypto super app is is definitely something to strive towards um but I I think that um in a space where we see this explosion of specialized environments for different kind of centralized Computing different rollups um a lot of application specific kind of things um there's never going to really be true uniformity and so um from an app perspective you probably want to

be building to at least support a little bit of fragmentation um not so much at the technical capability level between ecosystems but more so just like what users believe them to be capable of and believe them to be useful for so yeah we're not um I I don't think we really see that future where it's just single chain within applications um even if underlying it is a ton of different rollups so I think it really depends on what users end up demanding um as their their application like we look at like dydx or Ribbon orone now like those applications are specifically single chain apps and like very very clear those products don't want fragmentation like dydx

doesn't want liquidity spread ac across a bunch of chains and kind of brings the product um so sorry got that noise guys but um uh I think that there's other use cases like what your building beach ball that definitely need it and I'm just super curious how the user demand evolves here and what we are what users actually want to play with yeah I mean it's a great point right like those applications that obviously benefit from that lack of fragmentation and uh it's a huge part of their overall value prop I think it really depends on the users you're going after I think we're all here hoping for a world where you know the the general user is someone who has the technical prowess of of our parents and everyone can jump in and and use these applications um I I think we've

got a long road in front of us though where the people that are going to be using applications like synonym are are specifically more kind of value transfer or def focused power users that really want to Tinker with things um and so um you know we're kind of building for that but I I I do agree with you that over time there are certain applications um that a lot of users will get attracted to and and will become power users of that specifically don't want to hop between anything at all yeah well the the leap like talk about a hop from chain to chain like relative to the leap it takes for someone to go from

like offchain to onchain I think is is an even greater hop so like to the point of onboarding the next billion users there's a notion of meeting the users where they are which is like Apple pay venmo cash app PayPal and I'm I'm curious if there's any of these interop solutions that are are looking maybe at Fiat on-ramps or looking at these offchain wallets and trying to solve the solution for for bringing this liquidity maybe not on chain but using it seamlessly within the defi ecosystem

um and it's a pretty General it's a pretty General question but the the in especially the intent Centric architecture seems like someone could issue an intent from their apple wallet and then solve that with the liquidity onchain and then there's their steps that are taken to deliver the product either onchain or offchain is there is there any protocols or solutions that that any any of our uh projects here are looking at to to try to incorporate this liquidity into the ecosystem well I know that um Noble launched the cipher wallet so you can actually have a credit card it's a

MasterCard credit card that you can load up with usdc and just use as you would a normal credit card um so that's already kind of normalized for like what you're doing in daily life right spending with your card every day um so I think those kind of things make especially people that load load up crypto onto those cards it's kind of really cool to be like wow I'm actually using crypto to buy a sandwich or or whatever um so I think yeah it's already happening I know there's already like the nosis card as well um crypto.com have a card

um just there's also onramps right like like um C money and a couple others that will direct you straight to uh straight to rollups or straight to whatever you know ecosystem that you want to get to that's kind of like our thing that that's kind of a lot of the reason that we pivoted to the rollup like our goal is just to onboard people directly to fast secure execution environments that like they can operate in and it almost feels the same as if they were doing it um you know on on uh like one of these apps that Rob mentioned um I wanted to to to just circle back real quick unless anybody has a pressing point point I wanted to kind of hear from fig and Max if they had any thoughts on the uh on on the conversation with regards to General

message passing and uh and value transfers and just kind of if you guys have any thoughts with regards to uh to to that one I just I was just curious on how you guys are approaching this because I know that you guys Max are doing a token standard um perhaps we can dive into standards as well but um yeah you guys didn't get a chance to hit on that one and if you guys have any thoughts on on on that and what guys are doing I would I'd appreciate those happy to happy to go first thanks for the um the space to say um yeah I think I'm I'm slightly in the middle in the valy transfer versus General message passing I mean I don't see them necessarily as against each other um General message passing is like

the it's the layer that needs to that we need to enable any of the stuff on top like all the intense stuff um a lot of the token bridging should be built in an application on top of a general message passing layer so they they're kind of the same thing but I um but I do think that the vast majority of applications are going to be value transfer like it's we may end up in this world of these mesh applications which have yeah synchronizing the state across different different chains but eventually it's all going to look like rollups and Bridges at the end of the day like we're going to have a roll up

where we try to like constrain all of our application logic in one place like what Susanna was saying about the atomic swaps or um the same thing that H was talking about like we we want to create these stable environments where we can build good applications and then have these generic interfaces with everything else so that we can we can have that like beautiful modularity and permissionless that crypto gives you um and that's what we've tried to take from the beginning so squid was you know originally the the vision was not necessarily to be a swap application but to take what axar had as a generic a general message passing protocol which

already had a bridge installed on it and take that to the next level so that you couldn't just Bridge tokens between chains you couldn't just send usdc to axle usdc on another chain you could go usdc to eth and keep that General message passing ability because I think the value transfer needs to be just as generic as the um applic as the message passing itself if you know what I mean like we need current currency exchange is just such a core primitive needed for any Global like economy so yeah that's how I see it yeah appreciate that yeah Ma yeah I do agree very interesting uh points of view here by the way I I do see yeah the

the general message passing as a base layer where where we can build um new things on top of it right what one of this is intense for sure right now uh but I guess my point is when when you do enable message passing that is both generalized and uh and yet econom economically sustainable you also enable new types of applications that were not even imaginable before and this is what we've seen happening in across every type of technology in every cycle right you first have some apps that are are able to be built because of the underlying infrastructure and then when the infrastructure improves or something

new happens on that side you then enables new type of INF new type of apps with new experiences that were not possible before so I think we we need both of th those wordss the uh intent layer which is focused on on value passing and and then the generalized message passing to really not provide any blocker for this new internet that we're building right the internet has right now an element of value but also an element of pure data which has value in itself um and the more fluid and the more connected you create this this path uh the more you you'll enable a transition into into this web three thing what whatever

whatever it will end up with um and uh yeah I mean I think one of the biggest for sure uh use cases for General message passing would be this state um State sharing State uh composability across the different Uplay up up layers up up up rollups rollups that will come up and they will need some form of composability interoperability in any case yeah I mean uh the the other thing that a lot of the peeps in this panel support um is is the xc20 standard and kind of brings us back to where where Hart and Beach B we're going on about defi users just wanting to use a Dap on one chain um you know versus kind of uh

daps on on different chains and kind of you mentioned the state situation and then we also have tokens uh transfers and governance uh as well um you know there's there's there's uh there's there's other solutions that exist um but I'm curious Max and I know Arun from uh from lii is pretty well uh uh engaged in this as well how you see xcc2 playing out um and like what the you know what what trade-offs you you're solving um and then we' love to hear arin's take as well yeah thank you Andy the the idea of the xc20 which is a bridge agnostic uh token standard for cross chain tokens is

really to enable this uh seamless flow value across any chain and using any underlying uh message passing system uh today what what happens is that every every um interoperability protocol needs to create has its own stand has its own basically way of brain tokens on a different chain and this creates a fragmented environment uh across the different rollups so if you bring your token by a canonical Bridge or any other third party Bridge what you will end up with a different a different version of the token on the different rollup that is not fible with each other and so the idea of the xc20 is really to

enhance the original vision of the erc20 standard which was a a very a standard a common way of doing things but applied to the different chains uh so that token issuers could still retain control over their tokens um and not giving them up to uh the bridges while at the same time enable enabling in in in a multitude of operators to provide the service of moving value and liquidity across the different chains and rollups I think the the key benefit here is is basically like avoiding vendor lock in and and also just removing the single point of failure right like of course uh there

are great great Bridges out there but the tech is still evolving and we don't want to pick a winner so early right so uh any of the any of these like initiatives that are uh supporting supporting a neutral uh kind of a uh an ecosystem where all the bridges can create a competitive market all of them can compete and there's no like uh vendor loocking for any of the companies is always better so at Lei we always um you know in support of these initiatives something that we're working on is also multi message aggregation not the same as uh xcc2 but again it's like stacking the benefits of one bridge on top of the other and kind of offering better

security by using uh more than one of them what happens if one of the bridge providers in the X erc20 standard uh token standard gets hacked yeah the the token standard is not does not enhance in any way the security of the singleand of the single protocol what allows the token issue to do is to set specific minting limits so specific um a specific risk control over a certain Bridge which becomes your risk exposure towards that bridge so what you know the way that we are recommending it

to token issues and projects that are embracing the token standard is that you know you you can look at the different trust minimize architecture that exists today in the in the the bridge space you know the rollup Bridge bries for sure and IBC you know for sure they they they stand out as a as best class and I stand them higher minting rights higher um higher biggest power bigger power if you want uh to to mean Tok to move tokens across the different frame chains because some of this infrastructure as we know it's but tested but as heart was saying might be slow and expensive then you also want to provide some fast and cheap way to move tokens around and that's when you white

list also you added to your white listing system third party bridges that have these capabilities uh you you you assign you those Bridge very more limited did you hear that yeah I I I lost a little bit um but my question is whether basing like your security model on rate limits which is actually saying okay this thing might go wrong but it's okay for it to go wrong to this extent um to me feels maybe a little bit weak um it's just an open

question rate limits are great to minimize damage but they say the damage can happen but only to this extent right I mean so the other side of it is basically what happened with multichain and and the other projects right so when multichain got hacked so many projects just lost uh a majority of their token Supply on on a specific chain yo Max we are you there yes I'm here sorry my my my phone my iPhone got connected to a random Wi-Fi and and that's what happened um yeah as AR was saying uh it's this is the xc20 is not a way to it doesn't but it's a simple you know extension of the smart contract so it's

not able to provide extra security to the single Bridges uh but it still gives the opportunity to the Token issues to retain control and adjust the risk parameters as the technology evolve right we we were mention it before it's not it's too early to pick up a winner uh and so the the standard what allows you to do is to give a temporary right to a bridge to Mint uh to Mint your tokens to move your tokens around uh in with with the risk with the with a specific risk uh parameter that you as a token iser have decided to to assign it to so yes it's not the ideal longterm

situation but for the state of things today it's the best option for token issues because they can say hey I fully trust rollup Bridges I I fully trust third party Bridges and across connects uh any any other a you know all the other the bridges here that are participating but I also I still want to retain the right to uh you know controlling how much I'm exposing my tokens to those bridges and to change my mind in the future so it's really a a future proof solution that it's uh uh put puts back the control back in the hands of of the token issues and then as the technology oif these Technologies become more battle tested and the

people move on the risk abion curve then gradually the risk limits can be extended and potentially the uh you know disability to to wiely so remove white Bridges can be removed from the hands with toen issures to become fully uh trustless and uh uh smart contract owned Bas I had a couple of questions who's uh firstly deciding the limits uh would you expect it it to be like a single entity a multi-sig uh what like the smart contract owner um and how do we make an objective measurement of security um I think there's been like conflicting

ideas saying like security shouldn't be the concern of the application developer um but then this standard is directly saying the application developer should be responsible for assessing security uh so it seems like we we kind of have these like contradictory themes of uh discourse in a discussion um so yeah I think my question is how do you objectively measure what is a sound approach to this risk tolerance and and then who yeah who's actually deciding uh and if it's like a if it's an entity it's like okay how what's like the path to kind of decentralize this in the long term um yeah so the idea is that right now you

know any token issue um is is in charge of deciding how they want to move the tokens around right some some projects might believe that uh the native bridges are the best way are the only way uh some some some project issuers might prefer uh third party Bridges as they are you know they have other trade-offs but they are they are already as a matter of fact in charge of deciding what happens to their token how does their token get a bridge they they are uh they provide incentives for the liquidity to happen on specific Bridges they they they you know they coordinate the operations so the reality is that token issues are already in ch and Theo whoever control the organization are

already in charge and are already in control of the operations so that's that's the answer to the first question like how who is in the decision maker is the same token issues that would still decide how do they want to facilitate the movement to the tokens across the different chains now how do they decide what you know who is the best Bridge what what are the best Bridges that's uh you know that's a very broad discussion I think that's part of what we're doing here what andd and the rollups have been doing here with trying to educate the the the ecosystem on uh the right way the best ways to to do cross chain uh but is the ultimately the decision is

still up to them right there might be several factors that come into play but it will be up to them to decide and to play really with the different limits starting slow and then gradually increasing the limits for for one or more bridges up until they feel that the technology has aifi enough so that they can really uh revoke this this right to to change the white list to change the mainting limits and everything oif into a beautiful trustless ecosystem that which is the way that we are uh hoping to work in the future right but well where we are not I I would argue we're not there yet in any of the technological

Stu uh just to add something there I think like as long as we're in a position where we cannot objectively say one messaging bridge is better than all of the others something like an xcc2 is is quite important so I think we've reached a stage where there are probably four or five solutions that are I don't know there's consensus that they're there Superior Tech but between them that it's very hard to you know pick a winner uh like even with the uniso bridge committee uh after I don't know three months three months of spending a lot of resources research looking into all of the different solutions they decided to choose two and still gave a chance to like all of the other Solutions so I think as long as we

cannot objectively pick a winner it's going to be very hard to you know uh not see the benefits of FX erc20 yeah and I think suzan is coming at this from a point inter view where that like the IBC uh and correct me if I'm wrong the the IBC kind of perspective is uh you know tries to tries to remove these sorts of um controls if you will or kind of uh as you said rate rate limiting kind of decisions up to a certain extent you try to just avoid the the kind of issue as a whole and I think you you brought up another really good point Susanna which is um the the concern of the of the destination chain on a on a message or or value transfer uh or or just any

chain that that that these uh interoperability Protocols are connected to um you know being being uh compromised or or affected or just the the General State of that uh execution environment being completely compromised or at least to some extent wherein the value of that is is is um uh is significantly impacted you know multi-chain Harmony these types of events and I just could would like to uh open up the the the floor to how you guys are um you know in addition to the xrc kind of concept how you guys on an individual level are are preparing or have prepared and and just are battle tested and protected from uh you know one of your rollups that you that you

support going under or a chain Le support going down and having a you know a a um a complete kind of loss of value uh in some sort of capacity whether it be uh a malicious uh sequencer attack on a roll or or some uh uh lack of consensus for days and days and days on on an L1 um and perhaps I'm not even thinking about this right but I'm pretty sure I've got the idea right and we haven't heard from Romani and router so we'll start with him and then I'm curious to hear from each of you guys as well as piggy back off the combo there so hey hey thank you guys sorry I had uh just uh lost Focus for a second uh was there a specific question uh oh

God rip all right we're gonna move to Kate yeah yeah so I mean like with the multi-chain um you know hack and all that kind of all that went down there like that there's actually a real world example of you know um squid keeping liquidity right with the the architecture being the Hub and spoke model where versus like a pairwise model so being able to just kind of identify and quickly contain that malicious connection so I'm going to actually sorry to put you on the uh the spot here fig but yeah I mean if if you want to talk about like how the actual you know the multi-chain debacle went down and and you know how uh squid was able to like retain and and stay liquid versus the

other um you know projects that did not thanks Kate um yeah I don't know how I'd be interested actually how the um the yes see the stand the crush chain token standard that you guys are oh sorry multi messaging standard you guys are looking at um handles Hub and spoke versus pointto point because um that was something that really helped us in during the multi-chain hack that basically the issue is that when a bridge goes down it makes a bunch of potentially makes a bunch of assets on a chain like phantom um infinitely you can Min infinite amounts of them so uh dpeg like every asset and what it means is that if you

have a point-to-point system then all the bridges from Phantom to the other chains that are connected um it's very difficult to track how much has been um drained from Phantom so say you have $100 million of usdc on Phantom you could potentially drain $100 million of usdc on the other side of every other chain which is connected um so if there's a and there's no sort of central way to to track um that value transfer so we were able to keep on online because we're in a h and spoke model and AXA has this um the rate limiting set via each spoke and um you know we could be sure that the bridge the axar bridge

in in total in aggregate wasn't under collateralized just because of um you know Phantom uh usdc being dged um and yeah that was just a nice part of the architecture but I'd be interested how the um standard you guys are proposing handles that yeah max if you have any thoughts there and and or uh if if Susanna does with particularly between IBC and evm as well as IBC to IBC but we'll give Max a chance here to fill in yeah the idea is that let's say a token issure as um has decided to Whit list a specific bridge for I multichain

for example for uh 10 million tokens a day 1 million tokens a day that is the risk exposure that they're getting to um to the specific Bridge so if they have WID listed two bridges for example let's say Axel and multichain and they given both 10 Millions 10 million tokens each as a as a Min right on on both chains um what will happen in case multichain gets uh manipulate let say multichain goes offline for example so the issue here is not that somebody has stolen the the tokens but in the case that there was a a single Bridge able to move the tokens around those token will still be locked Forever on the destination chain and

instead because the token ISS is able to Whit list more bridges they can users can use the other bridge to move the tokens around and move the tokens back to the origin chain because the tokens that are minted on the destination chain say Phantom are the same what whether they're minted by Axel or by voltage chain right the the beauty of the standard is that it allows you to Mint the same flavor of the token according and in the maximum amount that is set up by the minting limits of of of the specific Bridge so in case multichain goes offline users can use any other bridge that has been W listed to move

the tokens back move the tokens around and so the tokens don't get stucked if multichain gets hacked and I'm using multi chain as as an example of course I don't want to be uh aggressive on bad cases um if in case multichain gets hacked and a hacker actually steals the fund then of course those funds are compromised and then you the AER is still able to sell them to bridge them with another Bridge uh and to you know do do whatever they want so that as we said we were saying the the standard doesn't enhance the security of the single Bridge but it effectively limits the exposure that you get from a single Bridge right so in

that case those 10 million tokens were have been stolen and the hacker is still doing is still being able to move to do what they want with them but it's only 10 million tokens it's not the full Supply anymore as it happens today it's only to that specific limit that has been assigned by the token isue but what about I I mean if Phantom is connected to six different other chains then how do you track the um I guess you can track it on the Phantom side the rate limit but every other chain doesn't have a guarantee that um that the if multichain is hacked then you could potentially drain the 10

million from from Phantom six times because it's in a pointto point setup instead of a hbur setup yeah there are some some controls in that uh in general yes the the limits are uh per chain and per Bridge so yes you do get a a form of of of of shared um of shared responsibility or shared risk across the across the chains that are connected to the same Bridge that's for sure like the the idea is to really um you know be and then having a a gradual increase of the limits across the different chains

across the different Bridges so that you are gradually getting more exposure to them rather than doing a no Lan allog together so I uh I think this Loosely relates here um because I saw uh Philip the founder of of uh lifi put up a proposal to uh implement this xc20 standard for Lio um and taking their their LST over to to binance chain um I'm curious like how this would look uh and like how it kind of works together with some of the other uh interop protocols uh either like Arjun or Max

maybe uh you could kind of like expand upon um kind of the tweet that was put out by philli and uh talk about like what that would mean for Li st e yeah let's see the Tweet yeah so that was a very uh exciting tweet to see and an exciting proposal so what is happening is basically Lio as put up a request two Bridges to say hey we want to bridge rough State e to B&B from ethereum what's the best way to do it okay and and the proposal from uh um yeah Philip and then the Lei team is first of all

let's use the ic20 standard so that the to the the L da can still retain control of the token contracts on the destination chain right they can they're still able to uh decide how the C token contract behaves and which bridges are allowed to Mint and uh and burn the tokens on BMB and they will always be able to retain this this type of control basically being able to add or remove bridges from the white list now in their proposal they they they're suggesting Three Bridges to three uh entities to uh to be added to this white list these are axillar Wormhole and a an aggregated message between axela and

Wormhole um that you know somebody called multi message aggregation because of the beauty of the xc20 standard what can happen is that you you can have these three and enties uh have different meaning limits and in this case know coming back to what what Susan was saying the uh it's easier to understand which one is the most secure because from one side you have the single Bridges uh single the the validation method and architecture of the single Bridges so axelon and Wormhole taken independently and from the third case you have the aggregation of the two Bridges so basically the two Bridges need to come to a consensus and then when they do uh the the message is

considered valid on the destination chain so the Philip Philip proposal was saying hey let's give 2 Millions minting limits to Axel let's give 2 million Min limits to warh and instead let's give a higher limit to the aggregation of the two because that's considered more secure than than the single entities what what this enables is that you can have the MMA uh moving bigger amounts or potentially any amount of funding across between B&B and uh an ethereum for stake te but then because this you know this type of aggregation is very expensive you also want to enable fast and cheap um uh fast and cheap transfers and that's where the minting limits for

warmall and axel will come in because they they will basically be able to Mint a small am a smaller amount of steak teeth on destination chain um that will still allow retail to move to move around very uh in a very cost- effective way stick suzan do you have any questions um it sounds like there's some kind of security aggregation model if I've understood correctly where you need to um you have to have verification coming from Axel and Wormhole and then the third thing seems just like a combination of Axel and Wormhole again um I guess this is this this puts in

some trust assumptions um but then my question is what if they don't agree like what happens then who's who's right in this case it's got Kate now no nobody like so that that's yeah that's an aggregation form so there again there are three ways that you can bridge in according to the proposal three ways that you can Bridge St these to uh uh to B&B one is directly by Axel if they haven't reached their 2 million limits one is directly from uh by Wormhole if they haven't reached the 2 million million 2 million m 2 million limits uh if they have then the you know anybody Tred to bridge will look at this

aggregation format this aggregation says hey it's a two out to two multi basically and each multi each entity signing the multi is the uh are the two Bridges uh so if they don't sign both the transaction if they don't come to an agreement the transaction is not verified it's not applied and this is an approach that different projects are adopting you know there is Hashi for example there is looking aggregation of um of different Bridges or different messaging layers and so this is probably is very likely to be the most secure approach when you want to bridge between uh two layer ones beyond the light clients um and so this this is a trend that we're looking

at um one uh party could intentionally not agree because they want to censor specific transactions um and then you you would they could effectively stop transactions going through right because uh I I'm not like like yeah I'm not going to like one party could just always say never sign a transaction then this would block any message going through uh my other issue with aggregation techniques is okay um is it just just like building out the multisig what if you're aggregating uh you have like a like client and a

multisig like why would you ever want to aggregate these things together because surely the like client has like Superior security guarantees than the multisig so I don't know whether I think security aggregation is like makes Lads of sense to me this this is what is available right now right it's uh it's uh it's available and it's easy to add other entities to the multi so you can have a three out to five for example four out to 10 whatever you you believe is the right ratio until we get to a state where like clients and

the soal zero knowledge bridges are actually feasible and uh and working across the layer ones that we want to connect and I'm just curious what how would that even look like on Axel or Wormhole uh colluding internally to to to not uh process a certain set of transactions like don't they have a set of parameters which enables them to not allow that to happen that's why they're a part of this or perhaps I'm missing something there yeah I mean xar is a is like we are kind of in the middle as an open and decent set of 75 validators right this is a permissionless set it's not like you know a perm set where we you know pick and choose it's it's kind

of open market so you know and we have thresholds right like we have quadratic voting to stop kind of people just aggregating a whole bunch of stake and pushing through votes um you know mandatory key rotations to also add another layer of security um you know and and for voting it's a 60% threshold right to for for um anything that goes across the network to pass so there' have to be pretty significant collusion on aers uh validator set which again they're all you know there's different companies from like larger Enterprise companies down to individuals who've just been really great kind of actors on the network who've been given you know Genesis delegation from the beginning running different Hardware different you know firewalls different you know be it

Linux or whatever so to collude on aer's network um you know we have a huge amount of of kind of security protocols and in place so I'm not sure yeah be very difficult to do it and um yeah like you know before there was kind of there was a a an interal multisig for some different you know facets but after the Unis swap vote we recently passed um a uh an upgrade to put those all on chain so it's now fully decentralized all of those kind of four out of eight um processes that were identified by Unis swap are now fully onchain so we're you know completely decentralized now um so yeah I'm not sure what it would what the the kind of the um one it would be

very very difficult to do and two I'm not sure what the you know the uh the intention would would look like for that so yeah yeah I mean I want to speak for you sus but but I think it's just from the perspective of just uh obviously bringing bringing to light the possibilities and being able to uh objectively assess trade-offs that are present in the current state that we have and then at least understand where those kind of points of weakness are and then be able to to kind of build off those was at least recognize and build towards a a more steady and secure future and I think um coming from IBC uh we haven't touched much on like clients uh but it's something that that we we

just kind of heard briefly from Max and and from you a little bit they're kind of there kind of seems to be this err of superior technology with like ZK based bridging and light clients so we're coming to the end of the space probably another 10 minutes or so here guys so might as well touch a little bit on like some of the future proof and future Tech possibilities with with ZK it always seems like talking about ZK is like you know years away and years and years but it's probably closer than we think but also farther than we think so um Su if you could kind of give us a primer on I guess maybe some of the IBC to evbm stuff using light clients uh or just kind of some you know tldr on ZK based light clients and how they could hopefully assess some of the trade-offs

and kind of your thoughts or just things in that realm I think the audience would love to hear about it yeah sure so so um like clients for IBC and Cosmos are are not using ZK currently but there's nothing to say that they they couldn't in the future um they just use consensus proofs um but it ZK in the kind of ethereum IBC World um is mainly used for compression so that it becomes more cost effective to update your like client um and you could also use ZK ZK to verify the validity of a specific

transaction rather than just looking at the consensus proof um I think everyone looks to kind of a ZK like client as like the kind of gold standard most like trust minimized um kind of end and state for interoperability um but I think consensus based light like clients are um equally kind of up there because if you if you want to communicate between two different chains you're already implicitly trusting the consensus of those two chains

um but so yeah I guess that's the high level DK technology still seems fairly nent um at least being used in production um then sorry go ahead I like there's not a IBC based connection to ethereum just yet but there are various teams working on that as a bit of a race competition to get there first um I presume it's it's going to happen probably early next year uh where everyone's in test Nets or public test Nets right now um

yeah definitely and well um fig you and uh you and axar kind of allow uh kind of rrap token transfers between um different ecosystems as well I'm curious if you guys are looking at like if you guys are are are at least thinking about different solutions or even in in in in a sense some of these projects that Su is talking about right where I mean I think it's between like Union composable and uh polymer but I think polymer's moving out of that direction so I think it's really just unit proposal which kind of almost one and the same but we won't get into that um but are you guys thinking about like uh the next iteration of what that could look like from like the Squid's point of view think of like almost like the uh

the the layer on top or kind of how do how does that fit in when that IBC evm comes in um yeah I guess I'm just curious what what you're thinking about that from Squid's perspective yeah it comes in uh in a few ways I think if um if there's connections that they have that are secure and work really well then we can integrate them um and I think the AXA VM which is AXA version 2 however you want to call it um is a new layer that um they're working on where you're able to permissionless deploy any kind of verification um method so if there's a a good CK um like client then you'll be be

able to deploy that on the EXA VM and um it gets added to the network really seamlessly from our end like squid would have to change up like nothing and the the difference would probably just be in the security and um maybe and the speed as well of our messages so yeah definitely excited about these Technologies I think the um you know zk's um may have the economic security in a sense like you have this verification versus trusting economic model um you have the benefit of that but it's also very new technology and like all new technology has bugs um cryptography is like not necessarily

um uh sorry the cryptography usually takes us a while to have Lindy so you know axela is currently just based on ecdsa and that's got you know great great Lindy so um there's a bit of maybe a security thing there but from Squid's point of view we try to the whole point of squid is that you're swapping between native tokens on any chain so the um amount of risk that our users are exposed to is actually really small um but yeah really excited about expanding ABC like we we support ABC so wherever it's um wherever it's supported will be will be there yeah you keep your Lindy up fig great boxb always um okay kind of uh

wrap us up here with Axel's POV I know fig kind of just spoiled the beans a little bit but uh he stole your Thunder um but yeah I'd love to hear more about what you guys are working on with this V2 update um I guess one of the one of the uh there's kind of two facets of it one of it's in testnet right now it's scheduled for mayet sometime soon um is its which is entertain token service which basically um currently evm um is on testnet coming to mainnet and then IBC compatibility will come to testnet then mainnet but basically it's a way to either um mined token or add um you know create a or add this functionality to a pre mined token where you can instantly

you know access fun ability across 12 um evm connected tokens that axer has already created Gateway contracts for on our Network um so it's a no code solution um so if you're a developer if you're not a developer right there's there's options to kind of like I said mint a new token or add this fungibility to an existing token to the 12 um initial interconnected evm chains that exor's already uh already connected and like I said um IBC is is coming soon to testet um and then as soon as new chains are added to the network there's kind of instant um you know fungibility across that new chain from all the other connected chains so that's kind of the the most uh what's what's coming up the soonest um but yeah I mean fig did a

great job of explaining kind of the AVM as a whole but yeah that's what's uh coming up uh coming up very soon no exact dates cuz we don't have them yet but yeah probably early next year or um even uh end of this quarter if the devs are super Speedy on it yeah it you guys make a good team thank you um I I'd like to uh just wrap up one last thing which is probably I mean you got if you guys got to run you you got to run but a little bit separate from the specific bridging conversation Sue I'm curious um please if you could tldr on what the heck is happening in Cosmos

right now with this Adam inflation proposal I'm hearing Forks I'm hearing separate I'm seeing separate Twitter accounts I'm kind of getting my head around it but like like from the from the inside what you can speak publicly and neutrally kind of would you mind kind of explaining what's going on there and perhaps any of your takes that you can share I think um that that 's always Cosmos going on I mean drama going on in Cosmos however I think there's a distinction to be made between the cosmos Hub and kind of the interchain as a whole and the technology powering the interchain

um so I think yeah the inflation drama people disagree people say they want to then orc the cosmos Hub because they disagreed with the passing of the proposed that reduced inflation from 20% to 10% um I I think that's kind of uh if people genuinely do want to Fork I guess that's like a possibility but um as to whether it will happen or not uh who knows but the uh The Wider interchain is have their own governance and I guess yeah it doesn't mean just because it's drama in the hub that there's drama

everywhere um and so yeah I I don't I don't have any insid kind of knowledge on that we're part of the IBC team um we just build out IBC VI the user um but yeah Cosmos drama is the only constant guarantee in blockchain yeah oh man in a world where I can see Fig's face he's laughing I know that's for sure um thank you guys for uh for coming on Max thank you for accepting getting grilled by Susanna for 20 minutes not

that it was actually that much of a grill but it was good really good answers Max and we appreciate you uh and and and the standard thank you Susanna for bringing the good questions and the uh alternate perspectives and then of course Rob the host and um the team don't forget don't forget beach ball for bringing a Dap perspective to the appreciate appreciate that um and yeah thank thanks everyone it was it was a lot of fun and um all all the uh the knowledge uh definitely learning tons and I I thank you and I Thanks on behalf of our community too yeah we're gonna make sure we uh record this whole thing and get it out as a full full like podcast esque uh series because this was this was just action and education pack

so thank you guys thank you for having us awesome to be H and yeah again Susanna really appreciate the uh kind of the hard-hitting questions there it's nice to have that on a space so yeah and Max took it like a champ I mean yeah like you know we need a little bit more uh you know constructive uh disagreements and uh you know discussions on these spaces so definitely appreciate being here thanks guys for having me on the actual intern account since I've been haven't kicked off the main one because I got too silly thanks fantastic conversation thank guys thanks thanks all thanks everyone