Rollup TV: Vaneck, Stability AI, Defiance, MemeStrategy

Transcript

Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat. Heat.

Hey [Applause] [Music] [Music] Bang. We're getting wrecked. Times are tough out here, boys. Good morning.

>> Good morning. Good morning, Soul. Good morning, Plasma. Good morning, Mainet Beta. And good morning, Bears. >> Dude, Plasma, like I said, I don't know if it's even live yet. It's uh 8:33 a.m. here in the um state of Florida. It's uh >> 9 p.m. over there in Korea. >> Um >> no forgetting that. That's for sure.

>> Yeah. So Korea. Andy, why don't you kick us off today by giving a message to the Bears? The Bears who are out there, they're listening, they're watching, they're celebrating. >> Yeah. >> What do you have to say to the Bears? >> Dude, all I got to say to the Bears is you got like another week or two weeks of of having some fun and then after that, well, Bitcoin's going to start to go on its Q4 rally. So, so good luck. >> Are you saying that directly to Anom?

>> Dude, Anom is probably going to be right for like the next bit. I think if you think about it, all we're doing right now is money flipping from alts to Bitcoin. Basically, it's just like a return of rotation of Bitcoin as my boy Benjamin Cohen has called it for many, many months. So, look guys, don't stress. Bears are short term. They're just they're just here for a bit. So, what would your message be on plasma mainet day? We got to see what's going on with that thing. I haven't even seen this uh actual mainet launch yet.

It's a little bit concerning. As far as I know, the founder of Plasma is scheduled to join us on Rollup TV tomorrow. >> Yeah. Friday, September. >> Yeah, he is. >> He is indeed. >> So, I intend to ask him directly tomorrow, September 26th, Friday, about Plasma's mainet launch. I intend to ask him, what are the two billion in stable coins doing on plasma?

>> Yeah. Well, they're earning some yield on Binance. That's what I saw today. Um, they were in a >> Okay, so a is live on Plasma right now. Well, that's I think I mean I'm pretty sure the chain's live, but I haven't really seen what's going on. Like I haven't seen an announcement. I haven't seen anything. A little bit confused. The coin has a price on Coin Gecko. Um, and you know that because it's the only thing that's not read today.

>> Yeah. >> And so it kind of sticks out a little bit. >> Yeah. Um otherwise, um we also saw screenshots of a block explorer. >> Oh, you did >> chain. There was a chain ID that was posted. Um it was by a research company. I think it was our friends at Chyros. >> Yeah. Nice. Dude, I got a couple things. First of all, I'm gonna get this this YouTube link out to my Telegram chat because we're giving out base codes today.

Uh, >> it's very >> we got four base codes to give out and um yeah, so that's going on. That'll be happening today. We will be giving out base codes. That should be fun. And the main main thing here is just to try to onboard people to base app and then get them to use the streaming product that we rolled out yesterday. Um otherwise I think the big other announcement or big kind of conversation point is that

all these prediction markets are on South Park which is just wild. I mean, Koshi and Poly Market are both live on South Park. People trading on the app, showing the actual brand. Zero sponsorship went into this from what I understand from either team. And this has just gone fully viral in like the biggest way possible. So, very, very, very cool for prediction markets today and just kind of like the state of things there. So yeah, pretty pretty interesting and hope to kind of see hope to kind of see more of where that goes.

I think I'd like to watch the South Park episode before bed tonight. Have it playing as I fall asleep so I can absorb prediction markets in my dreams. I also heard the South Park uh display for the prediction markets that they were using in the episode was a exact copy of Kshi's interface. >> Found that pretty bullish. Same. Yeah, I think that was cool. Um, I mean there was a ton of different things here like uh there's I mean Ultra joined Kel yesterday.

Hey, somebody just bought some ETH on base. It's pretty sick. I'm gonna pull some. >> Very cool. Very cool. >> We got Matthew Seagull coming up first. He's having some >> bought some Bitcoin. >> Nice. It's probably bullish. No, >> I think that's bullish for the boys. Bullish for the boys and the girls. everyone who's out there watching in the Rollup TV community. >> All right. Well, I'm giving out one base code. I got a base app code to give out if you're watching this in the YouTube or X setup on live streaming. If you're watching this, tell me tell me one tell

me when you think the base airdrop is going to go live. Give me your best prediction for when Bass will launch their token. Um, drop it in the chat, drop it in the YouTube or the Twitter chat, and if it's a good prediction, you'll get a base code. We've got four of them to give out. Again, if you are wanting a base code, there is a chat on X. You can you can click the little sidebar and see it there. On YouTube, it's up on the right side of the screen. If you're on mobile, it should be on the bottom.

Tell me why or tell me when you think the base app is going to go live or the with the base token. Tell me when you think the base token is going to go live. Okay, we got one already. We got RC in the building. RCN Q2 2026. Not a bad guess. RC RC, drop your Telegram. Drop your telegram in the YouTube chat or DM it to us on Twitter. Sully Finance says 2030. I'm gonna respond to that one and say bad answer. Sully >> GTFO, bud.

>> Unfortunately, I think Sully is more accurate. >> You think so? >> Than uh than RCN, >> what is your base boys gonna think about that one? Let's let's pass this over to Rob on the on the screen here. I'll be right back. Uh I'm gonna read the rest of these comments here in a second. Rob can take it away. Check the comments out. Andy went to go find more comments. Actually, no. He went to go find more base codes so that he can he can share more base codes with you guys. The tips are rolling in. It's great. I see you.

uh our your username is a little bit hard to pronounce, but I see you buying Bitcoin. I see you buying ETH and I see you tipping and we appreciate you and so grateful that you have chosen control the stream mini app to engage with on this fine fine Thursday, Friday, wherever you may be tuning in from. We're going to get even more base codes. If you need a base code to give to your friend, ask us, tell us why you think you are a fit for a base code. Remember, this is an exclusive app. It's in a closed beta. There's only so many users and we have exclusive features that are rolling out. There are very, very early

opportunities that are available only on the base app. Remember, Bass is launching a token. They are starting to explore what a network token for Bass looks like. Decentralization is a top priority for Bass. They are very very keen on decentralizing the network. Coinbase has a public equity that is trading on all of the regulated stock exchanges. Bass has none of that. They are looking to decentralize their network and put shareholders at the top. AI AI Schustster.

That's my best attempt at saying your username. AI Schustster. It's not a bad username once you say it a couple times. AI Schustster.base.eth. That is a heck of a username and we appreciate you. And I think just by tapping the buttons that you're tapping and you may be spending a cent or a few cents or a dollar maybe even and that is coming out of your pocket. But you know what? Bass is going to launch a token. We don't know when but we know it will happen. And when it happens, by interacting with this stream and our mini app on the base app, you

are positioning yourself for a base airdrop. That may be a bold claim. However, we don't know the details. We don't know the specifics. The reality is that Bass is decentralizing. They're launching a network token. We have launched a mini app on base and it it just makes sense. Doesn't it just make sense that if you interact as an early adopter of base through their ecosystem of mini apps such as the rollup miniapp control the stream, doesn't it just make sense that you're positioning yourself early for a base airdrop?

I don't think I'm making anything making any claims that are too drastic here. >> I mean, I agree, >> Andy. Thank you for your tip. I think by tipping and interacting with the rollup mini app, control the stream, you yourself are positioning yourself as an early adopter for a base airdrop. >> What's going on in the chat? All right, Sully. No one else responded in that chat. Let's check YouTube. RC creator 9 dropping you a base code right now. RC, congrats.

>> Shout out RC. >> Come on. Give a base code. Give Sully a base code. He earned it. >> He brings up a good point. >> Base token. We have two predictions. We're between Q2 of 2025 or excuse me, Q2 2026. Yeah. >> Should be about nine months from now, give or take, or 2030. Creator 9 base code is in your excuse me, creator base code is in your DMs, brother or sister, whatever you are, wherever you come from. We don't we

don't judge. Doesn't matter to us. Get on the base app, >> guys. follow in the steps of AI. >> All right. Our boy L agriculture L crypto uh said Q1. I'm gonna say why. Why Q1, buddy? Give us some give us some depth to the answer. Come on, bud. Come on. Come on. All right, we got a a banger lineup for you guys today. By the way, uh we're having some issues with uh our boy here, Matt. We're gonna have to maybe reschedule him. Um, so that's unfortunate. All these people that are on these like high tech office Wi-Fi signals that are uh all freaking secure are kind of problematic. Um,

so it is what it is. Uh, that's what happens when you're running a live show. Can't can't win them all. So, we'll have to roll Matthew into a later uh show and make sure he's in a proper setup, which is totally fine. Um, so let's go back to where where we're at on the on the base app. Um, >> yeah, see what other >> we were talking about how inter we were talking about how interacting with our mini app is positioning yourself strongly for a base airdrop.

>> I agree. Definitely agree. Um, and I mean that that's kind of like the main point of I would say using the base app at this current stage. It's very much like uh you know in its early days but I mean at the end of the day at some point it's going to be you know probably a pretty big app and so yeah it'll be >> I think Jesse Jesse did say that how many users they have currently. I think it was about 40,000 maybe 50,000.

>> Yeah. Which is like 1% of the Coinbase wallet users apparently. Uh Sully Finance with the 2030 uh answer. You have a base code in your DMs. A base app code in your DMs, bud. Congratulations, my boy. Congratulations. That is two base codes given out today so far. Again, the question for you guys is when will the base app go live? But more importantly, when will the base token go live? Um, wow. Here we go. So, he thinks Q1 is going to be a pretty good time for the token. Q4 is too late. Q22,

you you know what I mean? What about that rumor app on Hyperlid? The chain is live since long time. Alrighty agriculture send your damn telegram in the chat on YouTube. Let's get you fired up, bud. Let's get you going. We'll get you on the base app. We'll get you interacting. We'll get you positioned for the base airdrop. That's all we're trying to do here, guys. We're trying to help you. Help us help you. You help us by commenting and liking and retweeting and engaging. We help you with a base code and therefore open up access to our mini app and therefore open up access to the base

air. >> Big vibes. So all right. Um that is the uh that is the base app uh code. >> How many more codes do we have for today? >> All right, here we go. Idris got you. Uh what about that rumor app on Hyperliquid? Um yeah, that is the rumor app on Hyperlquid is being built by the alt layer team. It's still very very fresh. So um you know it's in beta. I can get you code for that as well. Uh if you guys like just let me know.

Eldrris, I got you with a base app code coming your way right now in Telegram. Congratulations my friend. You are officially a base app user. Check out the stream. Check out the vibes. Load up your wallet. And uh enjoy, enjoy enjoy enjoy. All right, guys. Again, the question for the base app codes is when do you think the base token is going to go live? Drop your answer in the chat below or in on X. If you're watching on on YouTube, there's also a chat. Feel free to ping it in there. I don't have the X chat up.

I need to refresh it. So, if you're in there, let me know. Um, and yeah, that's where we're at. We're giving away four codes already, Rob. Wow. Oh, yes, please. On rumor app. They want a code on rumor app. All right. Well, we got to get a rumor app code. Let me ping the alt layer, guys. See what what we can do. See if we can start giving away codes in the stream. Um, I'm pinging them right now for you there. New type. See what we can do.

I just ordered an Apple TV. I'm about to be like, dude, the screen share that's about to come is going to be insane. Guys, the question for base app codes is when will a base token launch? Answer that question for us with an answer that actually makes sense and we will ship you a base code. The chat is on X. The chat is on YouTube. Feel free to do it at either spot. And yeah, we're fired up. We're ready to go. >> We absolutely are. We're fired up. We're looking into Plasma. We're investing.

>> Yeah. What's going on with Plasma? Is the token launch? >> Plasma did tweet two hours ago as they were supposed to. >> It was supposed to tweet about Binance and A. >> The token is live. Three of the largest companies in crypto. a Binance Tether brought together only on Plasma. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Trillions fire. Rob, maybe you can uh you can uh give us your uh your just kind of general uh stable coin outlook here as we wait for some more base code farmers to give us their answer. Again, guys, when will the base token launch? got eight minutes before we got our first guest e-mod on.

Uh Rob, what is the uh what is the plasma thesis? Why is plasma going to survive and differentiate? Do you think uh you know or maybe even better ask why is a chain that is meant for payments like the next logical step for for tether um you know plasma being the first one and we we'll go to you solo go rip us a rip us a quick one here >> I um Andy that's a great question >> yeah like why is a tether chain so important like what is the value of the chain that settles the majority of tether of USDT transfers. Like are we comparing this to the DTCC? Are we

comparing this to like all the clearing houses? Um you know what is like the what is like the real world comparison for a tether chain? Part of the um the genius of Paulo is that he didn't build just one tether chain as you're seeing most of the other stable coin issuing companies are doing. They're building out their own stable coin chain. It's exactly what Circle did with ARC. They built it out themselves. Tether instead said we want stable chains plural.

>> Yeah. and they've been able to enable an ecosystem of chains. And so when you think about how unique that is, what you normally have is you first have a a chain that gets launched and then you say, "Okay, we want to build an ecosystem of applications on top of this chain." What Paulo realized early on is that the asset issuers hold the keys to the universe. And by issuing the majority of stable coins in circulation right now, billions and billions and billions and soon to be trillions and trillions and trillions, they have a a level deeper than the chain.

They underpin chains plural with their assets. So I think the genius of of Paulo was to to take pause and say we're not going to la we're not going to build and launch our own chain. We're going to enable and incentivize an ecosystem of chains on top of Tether, multiple stable coin chains on top of Tether and let them fight it out. Healthy competition ultimately benefits the entire ecosystem. And in this case, stable coin chains built on top of Tether, duking it out and and engaging in healthy competition. All of that competition ends up benefiting Tether as the asset issuer. So

I think that is part of the unique insight that Paulo and Tether have. >> Yeah. And then they also have just like Ethereum, Tron, and like all the other chains that are just like public chains that just use Tether for everything as well. So it's like they're really just everywhere. We we had a question. So there's Plasma, Stable, Tempo, and Arc. I think that's the main four for now. But then of course you've got you know like the polygons, you've got the Ethereums, the Trrons, you've got the ZK things, the Aptoses, like you've got these other kind of like chains that already facilitate a lot of payment volume uh live uh already. So, I mean, those are kind of the other suite

of of the, you know, contenders within the payment chain race, which I think is uh, you know, there's definitely real competition in the ones that have already launched and then the ones that are coming up to launch, >> right? And and to the earlier point, all of this healthy competition benefits the asset issuers. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because you know as there's more chains and if they have unique value propositions they're going to they're all demand >> plasma mainet live. >> There we go.

>> Is out. >> There we go. >> Live boom boom. >> Very cool. >> The the new global financial system is here. Plasma mainet. Bang. Beautiful chain is live. Tokens trading. Boom. Look at that. Check Coin Gecko. Where we at, guys? Again, we're giving away one more base app code before this next guest. He'll come on in a couple minutes. Um, it is what when will the base token drop is the question. Sorry for the brain

fart there. I'm looking at the plasma. Plasma launches at 10 billion dollar FTV. 10 billion FTV. It is currently trading at $10 billion FTV. What a monster launch. >> You may ask yourself, look, you know, is Plasma bullish or bearish from here? And I'm not going to directly answer that question. That's up to each of you to decide. However, I I think it is worth noting and observing that the valuation of Tether's rumored raise as of recent is a similar multiple between their FDV and our understanding of their asset

their their balance sheet or actually no. Is that is that not true? >> Yep. >> No, because their balance sheet is five and a half. Their balance sheet is five and a half. >> I'm jumping on a a banger plasma tweet. five and a half billion and they're rumored to go live at 500 or or raise their latest round at 500. Plasma has two billion in assets. I guess that's not exactly their assets though. That's just ass. That's just TVL. That would be what do we what do we have here?

Circulating Tether 173 billion. So, I guess that's about a 2 and a halfx between TVL and market cap. And Plasma is currently about a 5x. It's not too dissimilar. I mean, it's double the multiple that Tether is currently raising at. Dude, this is pretty this is a pretty huge launch. I mean, given the state of affairs today, it's pretty it's pretty impressive. Um, yeah, we'll have to get

we'll have to get Vance on the show. Uh, and Michael from Framework to talk about it soon. Um, yes, it new type asks it's 500 billion, right, for Tether IPO question mark. That's insane. Um, you know, I don't know. I don't think that they're raising for I don't know this an IPO necessarily, but that's what they're raising in the in the private round probably just from like some special uh investors who you know they want to have on. Yeah. Yeah, I mean they want to fund 20 billion and when you're at the scale that Tether is at one of the most valuable companies, the mo the most valuable bank and uh and financial institution in the modern age, you know, they can fill that

relatively quickly. It's more so about finding the right people and investors for that. Historically, you remember when Elon took Twitter private and he was looking for funding, you know, he texted Larry Ellison and Larry Ellison was like, "Yeah, a billion or whatever you think." So, there are 20 people in the world that can do that or more. And there are certainly institutions that are strategically aligned and also have the capital to fund a round of this stature. So I think when Paulo tweets, you know, he says and I think I think he's he's being genuine.

This is only if they want it. They are exploring the idea of around new type says 500 billion with 10 employees. It's going to be a fire documentary in in 10 years. Hey guys, good job Andy and Robbie for real. Thanks bro. Much love. Glad you got the base code. Um guys, I think that's uh probably wraps up our base code drops for now. We got a awesome guest setting up for our first show. Um and yeah, we got Immod Mustak Mustik uh talking about

AI. I mean, he is one of the he's the founder of Stability AI. He's a friend of the show. Um, so we're stoked to have him on to get get that in. We're gonna roll into the intro animation, guys. We're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back for the AI Super Cycle episode number two. See you guys soon. Let's get started. Hey. Hey. Hey.

Hey. Hey. Hey. [Music]

All righty, guys. Welcome back to episode number two of AI Supercycle. We are joined by Immod, the founder of Stability AI, currently building out an awesome product in intelligent internet. It's Andy. I'm here with Robbie. AI Supercycle is presented by Near, one of the leading AI projects in crypto for blockchain, if not the leader uh building out the decentralized AI vision, focus on privacy, focus on user ownership, uh userowned AI, and really just this open-source nature of this industry. Very very important discussion to be had today on this on this subject with Immod. Immod, welcome back to the show. Great to have you.

>> Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. I mean, look, it's been what, five, six months, Rob, maybe since we last spoke. I'd love just a quick update, man. Like, we we were speaking about intelligent internet. Uh, you know, kind of what your vision was with regards to democratizing access for things like education, for things like healthcare, these types of things when it comes to open source AI and the importance of kind of the organic nature of certain models, of certain training data. You know, it's been quite a while. I'm sure you guys have shipped quite a bit. So maybe just another quick intro as to what intelligent internet is and just get us caught up on all the progress man.

>> Yeah, I think AI time is like faster than even crypto time. It's like 10 times normal time. So it's been like, you know, three or four years since we last talked. Um yeah, so the the goal of intelligent internet was basically to increase the intelligence of humanity by giving everyone access to high quality AI for the stuff that matters. Because right now we're seeing a lot of AI for, you know, entertainment, chat bots, businesses, and others. But who's going to make the AI that teaches your kids or Albania's just had an AI minister? What's she programmed on, right? You know, who's going to build the AI that does your healthcare? So, we saw an opportunity in that cuz of this trillion dollars of AI spending, at least 20% is going to go into public sector type

stuff. So, we were like, why don't we build that really great first? this stuff that's based on common knowledge. Other people can build the other types of AI, but let's make it so that more of this compute goes towards organizing cancer knowledge and making it available to people, organizing global regulation on digital assets to allow people to encompass them, you know, giving AI to teach every kid in the world so they have the same access. So, we brought over kind of a core team from stability AI in my previous company. We had like 300 million AI downloads. And over the last few months, we've been building a state-of-the-art full stack solution.

So, I agent is a state-of-the-art agent that can build websites, presentations, everything fully open source. Common ground is a multi-agent software that does everything from planning to execution of really complicated workflows. And then we've been releasing models and data sets as well. So, we released um for example, I medical 8b. It's an 8 billion parameter model that fits on your laptop and outperforms any human doctor. And so we're going to make that better and better with the goal of next year everyone will have education, health, government, full stack AI solutions that they can just take and run on near run on AWS, run on their own computers to really make that

difference. The final bit was tying it all together. We think we're at this takeoff point now where these AI agents can basically displace most of human cognitive labor. In fact, cognitive labor is going negative. So, we just released our book um the last economy about what the economic system looks like going forward uh proposing one backed by AI using AI itself. And we're about to release the academic papers behind that as well, which has been super fascinating, exciting, and a little bit scary. >> Wow. I think there's so much to unpack.

Um, you've been a visionary in the space for so long and so you you've really outlined your vision and now you're you're working to make it a reality. One of the thing that strikes me is the composability of this. You mentioned how you can run these agents, these models, you can run them on near you can run them on another blockchain. you can you can start to tweak and tailor these agents to your particular liking based on several factors that that maybe we'll get into. So when you were building this leveraging some of the experience and stability what were some of the things that you that were non-negotiables you said you know despite you know how others are building it these are

ideation on we're staking our company on and effectively the future of of this particular model. What were some of those non-negotiables that you implemented? You know could you explain those to us? Yeah. So it was a really interesting experience. Uh it's we released stable diffusion at stability in August of 2022. So that's three years ago. You know, it's been like a thousand days since chat GVT now. It's been like a year since 01. This stuff moves fast. And when we released it, we're like it makes pretty pictures. And then we released the video models I think the year after.

And now look where the video models are. We looked at the pace of all this. We were like, we released the first version of stable diffusion open. The final version, stable diffusion 3 before I left was kind of this open up to a million bucks type thing. And that felt kind of wrong, you know, but it was like how do you build a business model around these? That was the question. And Vitalic Bhutan has this great essay called the revenue evil curve. You know, it's like you start out like really good, but then when you're building infrastructure, you go rivalous and exclusive. you restrict access or you compete against other people and then you turn a bit evil and then companies turn more and more evil because they're kind of dumb AIs.

>> So the first thing was we're like education, government, finance like but the regulated industry stuff that's based on common knowledge doesn't require any IP or private knowledge that should be free and available to everyone. It should be MIT. It should be proper infrastructure. And again, a big part of our global economy is that type of stuff. And in the AI age, it should be that kind of stuff. The next thing is the composability. Like when we really stable diffusion, again, we were like, pretty pictures. And then people were like, well, if I say a woman, it doesn't give me a woman or a man in my culture.

So we released Japanese stable diffusion where you know you type in salary man and instead of having a very happy man you had a very sad man you know like it has all the cultural nuances. We like how do we make that composable and build these data sets because the ways models are trained is actually known as curriculum learning. You have generalized data then more and more specific data. >> So we were like you got to have those. And then the interesting final one was it was kind of non-negotiable to have it really directed built in terms of a lot of the projects and things here are like let's have an emergent architecture something like a bit tensor right like this stuff will just emerge and it's a marketplace of ideas we were like no we should probably have like really dedicated core teams that build

the best autism stack or cancer stack in the world and then drive it forward like Linux is driven forward by a core team Bitcoin core is driven forward by a core team. Like again, you can use the emergent stuff, but someone's just got to build this and it's as hard as building this properly is probably launching a rocket and landing it by itself again. So you got to have the best kind of people doing that. So fully open source, composable, and then directed I think were our three non-negotiables on here. >> And that's again how we've been directed because we know what we want to build.

In fact, one of the other goals I told the team is that in a few years, we want it to be built. Like most software will evolve forever, but again, we've seen the power of something like a Bitcoin where the code is relatively the same. Again, you have to do updates. Once you get a good enough stack for medicine, you can have that on every phone and every laptop and every doctor's appointment in the world checking every diagnosis. And sure the data sets will upgrade but you don't really need to upgrade the software. So that was kind of very interesting thing in solving for a problem versus this continuous development type of approach.

>> And could you just maybe just succinctly put you know what are the goalposts because oftent times like you're saying it it constantly evolves and maybe that is you know it is the goal in some some cases but for you it's it's more strict than that and it's more direct. Yeah, it's basically for these things that I say matter as it were like again the stuff that should be a human right this universal AI is what we call it >> having a companion that can give you that at the highest reasonable level so the best doctor from any school the best teacher from any school >> and then we have these things called these um anchor sets which is our collective knowledge on that again they'll update every so often but no

one's got a really clean data set that can teach an education model to then teach your kids as good as possible and that's an S-curve versus AGI is an exponential you'll never have enough data for an AGI but we've got various measures and evals about what good enough is for medicine now so again we can say our medical model is better than any top level doctor is it good enough but we can see things like error rates and other things and really AI does need to be quite a bit better Uh we did that's one interesting stat like you know Whimo.

>> Yeah. >> If every car drove at the same safety profile as Whimo, it would save 40,000 lives in America a year and a trillion dollars of social impact. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> That was always the the inflection point is when it was provably more safe to self drive. >> So even though our medical model is better, it's not good enough for us. you know like again we have certain metrics that we're sending and we're going to be sharing on the evals once it gets to a certain level of accuracy of performance and others then we're like this is 99% of the way there and sure we'll continue they'll the data sets will continue to improve we'll see your feedback but we

solve for a problem of everyone has very high quality AI that's basically free for them to access universally for this sector for this sector for this sector for this sector and again that's a very different problem set to most other AI companies and organizations. >> Yeah. And and and I think that um what you mentioned with regards the revenue evil kind of curve that that is uh playing in that's playing out in a large way in the traditional AI space currently. Uh there's just there's just very fierce competition as well as luckily there is what appears to be infinite funding from Silicon Valley. So like we're still not really there yet because everyone's in a happy golucky state because well Seoia will give you

$50 million you know it's not a big deal right etc. But you know with regards to actually specializing into these um you know into these exact goalposts or goal that you have. you know, you present a compelling argument for a lot of people listening, but you also present a a a scary what-if or a scary kind of second or third order consequence, which it seems you've deeply understood and thus wrote about in your recent book more around the future of economics in an AI powered world. And so while I think a lot of people will take what you're saying and fear for their jobs or fear for kind of there being a robot doctor instead of the emotional connection that you would get with your pediatrician,

you know, I do feel that uh there is a you know, you have a right to kind of explain why AI and AGI for the future of the economics of the world isn't perhaps so bleak as some of the doomsares or you know overexaggerations that we've heard and will continue to here. And so, Ahmad, I'm I'm curious when you're thinking about the relationship between, you know, specializing medical and legal and health and uh education to the highest tier of specialization and skill at the absolute lowest barrier to obtain that knowledge. What does that do for the economics that exists in the world today? maybe you could unpack a bit of the theme of this book and kind of we we

can work through, you know, the economics of this AI system specifically as it pertains to uh, you know, an open-source system and a kind of a userowned economic system. Maybe you could walk us through some of the book themes and then we could, you know, dive deeper on them. >> Yeah. So, in the book kind of we discuss how different types of economics look at different parts of the picture. It's like the blind scholars and the elephant like you hold the tusk it's a spear you hold the tail it's a mop you know you hold the trunk it's a hose etc like everyone looked at different parts of the picture in fact there are different types of economic flow not just GDP for example which Stan Kursnets who came up with it says is a terrible way of

measuring the economy especially on a social welfare basis you know like when cancer is solved it will be bad for GDP shortterm good longer term but very bad short term because all those profits disappear from the cancer industry etc. Right? Divorce again tends to be good for GDP. It measures one type of thing which is a gradient flow and that is a viral risk flow. I give you an apple, I have one apple less. We share knowledge on this podcast it increases. It doesn't disappear anywhere. And more and more of the economy has become these circular flows, these non-rivalous flows. And in an age of AI, intelligence is basically infinite. spinning up another agent doesn't really take away from anyone and

that causes this imbalance. I call it the metabolic rift whereby agent GI agents don't need to eat, sleep, poop anything, right? And they can scale almost infinitely because you can have more and more of them and they will learn from all the mistakes. So this leads us to a very strange scenario whereby the AIs that teach us every single day, they're run by slower AIs, these organizations, do you want chat GPT teaching your kids or running your government? No. Cuz there's this misalignment there. Can you have it as a public good and it feels like a utility, electricity? This was really fascinating for us because we were like, how does money work right now when labor capital needs labor? You need to hire people to

do stuff. in the future agents will be there. Instead, we think about the flow of money and where it comes from. And that's why we designed this new economic system here whereby the first step is there's trillion dollars of compute coming. You know, like OpenAI is going to spend as much on inference this year as the whole Bitcoin budget. And 20 gaw uh 10 gawatt they just announced that's about half the energy of Bitcoin in just their new kind of plants, right? they'll catch up and you know they'll overtake like these are the orders of manity we're talking about. We were like, what if money was made rather than from using energy like Bitcoin or from debt like the conventional system from benefiting people and helping

people because right now we looked at digital assets and we were like there are utility coins, there are governance coins, there are all these there's Bitcoin on money. No one's really thinking about the nature of money and what it looks like. And if we can have it based on compute for universal AI access, organizing cancer knowledge, things like that, secure against that computation, that could be a better basis for the economy, especially because as we move forwards and we have other parts of the monetary system. What does it mean to be a human when you're negative on your contribution to intellectual labor? like you're the dumbest person on the team surrounded by AIS. What it means to be human, I think, is about giving a damn. Like these AIs, they have no skin in the game. They'll

come into your workforce, but they don't care about your company. They don't care about your community. You can kind of program them that way, but what it means to be a teacher is giving a damn about your students and engaging them. What it means to be a doctor is about engaging with your patients and helping them. You know what it means about using AI within your organization is understanding your organization and being able to get everyone on board to upgrade them and guide them. And so giving a dam this trust element, this connection element is captured in our proposal for how to look at the economy. And this comes from the math that we figured out which is you have this material aspect which is you have an apple I take an apple classical GDP. Then you have

intelligence I. So we have M then I. I is again this circular flow increases as you share knowledge and increase your capabilities. Then you have N which is your network your connection to other people. And if you look at crypto for example, the value of crypto is typically its network, right? Massive network effects. And then finally you have D which is your diversity which is your resilience. And if we move to measuring GDP like that, measuring the economy like that, we can design new economic systems that aren't just about who can capitalize better and be evil better effectively, right? Because the AIs will out compete all humans as companies.

So we need to think again how does money flow, how does money emerge, and then where does the value go and what do we reward for value? These are the key things. So, it's really just like a it's a a reassigning of where or how value should be measured and then really where that value flows rather than having a I mean, if you want to put it in a kumbaya, it's very grow the pieesque because you know it's in a sad state of affairs. You realize that the human intellectual capital of of labor, intellectual labor has been surpassed by such a magnitude of difference that there are that the value that humans can

provide become as you say in this relationship or in other kind of forms of value. So it's almost like what you're describing is that and in this book uh which you should definitely uh we can definitely put in the description and you know you should tell us the name all that it it basically is you're describing it as like humans now will need to find new ways to create value and then thus price and actually measure that value in a not so uh quantitative fashion but more like this qualitative fashion. Is that in the right direction?

>> Yeah. Not so much a zero sum fashion. So again like let's look at crypto like why are people farming the heck out of hyperlquid and now what what's the new hyper liquid >> aster right it's this community contribution >> airdrop meta right and when that goes well you form really great communities and you have really great network engagements how is that value captured by conventional economics it isn't at all right yeah it doesn't make sense And so that's why when we were looking at these like Dows, all these things, crypto has such great ideas, but they were kind of like a V1. We were like, what's the V2 for the age of AI? Because like I've just had a daughter in 20

years. What does her global economy look like? What is she doing every day? What do I want her to be doing every day? I wanted to have an AI buddy that lets her be the best she can be. I want her to have her basic needs taken care of, you know, and I want her to be rewarded for doing good in the world. So, what does that economy look like? Cuz she's never going to be able to compete against an AI lawyer, you know, or an AI hedge fund manager. Like, come on, you know, like this isn't going to happen. And who should own that AI that is there by her side? That's the sovereignty aspect, right?

>> Again, which is super important. And how does the money flow? Because >> if we just leave it like it is right now, the AI is going to take all the money because you can't compete against it in the markets. it will just go and it'll expand and again they'll never make a mistake. So we need to think of a new way for money to come into being. If people start losing their jobs and we've seen this from a recent study by Eric Benoffson and others early graduates are now losing jobs faster than ever because you just can't find it. Like Dolingo came out a few days ago and said hey we've not fired anyone. We've become more productive. I was like but yeah but Dolingo is growing at 40% revenue a year. They just haven't hired anyone.

This is the new reality. So next year is when this really drops off. The money has to come from somewhere. The capital has to come from somewhere. It feels a bit socialist, but really the current system values capital over everything. The more capital you have, the more capital you can get, the more you can stake, the more you can get interest, the more you can do that. You used to have to hire people eventually. Now you don't have to hire them anymore. You just hire GPUs. So we got to offer an alternative for that. and really think again in 10 20 years what does monetary flow look like cuz a lot of the crypto discussion has always been it's a new economic system like tell me how that all works a lot harder than you think which is what we spent

the last like year just heads down saying this is what we think the stack looks like this is how we think the monetary flows look like this is macro this is game theory this is markets etc >> yeah you know what's funny is that part of this in the crypto space that is happening right uh in the industry is just returning to kind of the core ideals that got us here because of the positive regulatory environment and and so one of those being privacy and so to you know to draw a through line here I very much see that you know should this be the path that uh you know humanity goes down with with AI you know powering it uh there there instantly becomes immediate needs immediate

non-negotiables and one of those I think is is equally privacy. You know, when I go on chat GPT and I type in information, I know that that is usable by other, you know, entities. Should I get in legal trouble, should I need to be uh, you know, investigated, etc. Um and you know you know that is part of this picture that I think you know let's say that we have this medical superco computer that you guys are building that there needs to be private uh you know agents there needs to be private data private portable AI is kind of how you've how you've uh explained it. So >> I think it's the foundation for that.

>> Yeah exactly. And so when you're thinking about this landscape that you've just kind of uh uh p uh illustrated for us, what is the need for private portable AI for everyone? Like how does that actually become a reality? Because for example, Near has a really cool AI tool that that is private. It is a private chat there. It is encrypted um right now. It's still in beta. It's coming out very soon. These start to become very compelling for users who actually care. But I think there's still a big education gap and a lot of work to to be done there. But when it comes to your intelligent internet agent which has this private portable AI that is aligned with this vision that we share on the show, you know, how do you make

that real and how does that exist in this context? >> Yeah. So the way that we approached it is what's missing, right? Like if you look at the team at NAR and you look at the other builders in the space, they're exceptional at ZK, they're exceptional at distributed systems, they're exceptional all that. And you know, we were thinking about like, do we build the whole stack? And we were like, no, why would we? Cuz finally the shackles have come off and all this technology is maturing at the same time. We were like, what we'll do is this, we will release fully open-source data sets that are gold standard for every from humanity, for every sector, and then every nation.

We will then release the frameworks, the agent frameworks and others fully open source. Again, you can take I agent, you can do anything you want with it. And then what we will do is we will use all the compute for providing universal AI to secure a currency and use that to fund everything because you're helping people, you're building your network, your trust, etc. So, what we have is if you want a private LLM, what is the LLM? Is it Quen by Alibaba? Is it GPTOSS by OpenAI?

I don't want Reddit in the data set that teaches my kids, you know, I want to have a super clean one once it starts making decisions and these agents make decisions on my behalf like the Albanian minister who is AI. I want to know the data that's inside that. And so again, does everyone need to build that? No. Does it need to be built? Yes. And so that was kind of our gap. use all this computer organize all the wisdom of humanity the common wisdom and then make it available to everyone and use that computation to secure the currency. So rather than trying to be our own near and roll that out, the agents will be available on NI. The agents will be available on other chains

or people can just take it because this is the important thing permissionlessly. When stable diffusion was released, anyone could just take that 2 GB file and build on it. That's permissionless. That's true permissionless actually. And so that's where we kind of viewed as this feedback loop and where we sit there because privacy is important. you don't want your medical data going out. Like I canceled my Claude subscription last month because they switched to a fiveyear retention policy on my data. And I was like and the pop-up just came and it says five years. Do you agree we can use your data for five years?

>> Oh wow. >> That's a dark pattern. No. Cancelled. Done. >> Wow. >> Because the way you program these AIs will be so important because if you don't own your AI, it'll end up owning you because it's more convincing than you are. It's a better writer than you are. You'll trust it more than anything. And particularly if you're not savvy on the edge like us, like again, imagine our parents or our grandparents or our kids. They got no defenses against this. Open AAI, there's a report today, they're about to add ads to their AI to CHP.

>> Oh, the revenue evil curve. >> Yeah, Meta and Google obviously they'll add ads. Like they're already selling latent space. You know, we thought block space was valuable. related to the space will be even more valuable. We know where this is going. >> Wow. Unless, you know, we build an alternative and it and it gains traction. And so, Iman, when you're when you're putting together the the bones for this um you you kind of mentioned like the collection of of wisdom that we have available to us today and then and then you know giving those giving that tool because it really is a tool that collection of wisdom to everyone open

sourcing it and allowing everyone to apply it to their stack of choice. So are you primarily focused on this indexing process and and collecting what is out there because or you you also mentioned something earlier in the podcast that I found particularly interesting which was that the the method of learning it was still this curriculum based learning model that was able to progress intelligence incrementally. And so are you primarily focused on collecting the wisdom that is out there, indexing it, applying it and and productizing it so that it is applicable to each of these different stacks or are you also focused on pushing the the

frontier of intelligence and you know once you have that collection of wisdom trying to innovate and iterate so that it it expands and grows its collection. Yeah, I think our focus is again is on the common knowledge of humanity. So if you've got something like a chat GPT or uh one of these frontier models, you're trying to do super expert stuff. I don't care that much about that. Again, we'll get there, but I care about the common knowledge, our collective wisdom because that's the basis. And then you can always add this extra stuff in there. If we've got really high quality building blocks, it makes AI safer. It makes it more aligned. Like no AI right now embeds ethics at the start >> and the ethics differs from country to

country but that's kind of important right like what are the laws of robotics for AI let's map what every culture says and then make that available and use large amounts of compute to do so we have missing things like you had the president of United States of America saying tenol cent ladies shouldn't have tenol right like I've used supercomputers for my son's autism and I know a lot about that and go into But the reality is this, the vast majority of people don't. What if we had a supercomput and we will build a supercomput just for autism to collect all of the autism knowledge and papers and anecdata and other things in the world and make it available to everyone so they can navigate it and they can see the exact pathways and things like that.

This is the type of knowledge that nobody's actually bothering to do but is really important and can set the basis for a proper AGI which is a swarm intelligence. And what's really important actually is the interface layer here as well. So the somebody needs to create the data sets and the models and make them available to everyone and we'll build deepseek level R model R1 models. We know how to do all this. But then I don't mind if my kid is taught by an AI that's align AI agent that's aligned with her that uses chat GPT.

But I can't let the interface be chatpt. I can't let the data sit there. I'm fine with it being her own self-s sovereign data. So, it's kind of looking at the stack that way and thinking you're going to have your sovereign AI that is on this common knowledge public sector regulated type stuff, education, healthcare, etc. Then you've got your Siri and personal AI and Apple intelligence will be good soon, etc. And Google intelligence is better. >> Please Siri. And then you've got your AGI type stuff. And I think people will use all of them. I don't think that we'll build an AI that beats every single other AI in the world on solving IMO gold questions. But again, I don't

really care that much about that versus the AI that teaches kids, runs governments, does these types of things. And that actually needs to be fully open. Like if you're making decisions about people's lives, can you have a black box making that decision? And who's making that decision? There was a study by Scale AI and Dan Hendris where they actually checked that you know the trolley problem like >> trainers hurtling down five people one side one person the other. >> Yeah. >> Do you pull the lever? It got the AI to do that. Advanced frontier AIs and it had a really interesting result. I think it was the ratio of American lives to Nigerian lives was 1 to 10.

So the AI would pick 10 American lives over one Nigerian life. >> My gosh. >> Because all the people labeling the data that went into the AI are Nigerians. >> Oh my goodness. >> It picked up on that. It's going to be crazy. You know, like again, we need clean data sets. We need >> So this is like about around the auditability of these data sets, right? Like this is really really important. And we had, you know, with Ilia week I I I had called them virgin data sets, but we came to the idea that organic was a better term. Um, and and basically that this transparency, this transparency into the data set can fix a lot of the quote unquote problems that exist, but they're not even problems. It's just about the way that it's it's actually

being set up in the first place. The question is like how do you know like how does one really know that your data set is audited that it's organic that it's hasn't been tarnished by somebody who wants your company to you know blunder >> well so again if you're building AGI it's very hard if you're trying to build the best primary school teacher in the world it's much easier >> the best radiologist in the world it's much easier >> so you still need generality of knowledge and things but then you take your generalized knowledge your radiology model and then you'll have specialized versions for each country that map with the education data set.

You can do lookups of the data set itself. So right now models don't look up their own data sets, right? Because they're too big. And so we figured out how to reduce the data sets, get to these anchor sets, and then it turns out you need a lot less images, a lot less text, a lot less of everything if you build them right. And that's why I think we can have an S-curve on this. We can use distributed compute and core compute to organize all the knowledge. Like how much compute do you need to organize all the cancer knowledge in the world and make it accessible and useful. It's a finite amount that then requires a certain amount of updating.

But if we don't have a dedicated cluster for that and a dedicated initiative, it won't happen. Will that accelerate a cure for cancer? Yes. Because right now doesn't exist, right? And so again it's just looking at part of the pie. I think you need audible data sets beyond that. But the existence of an orbital data set just like when we funded the pile which from alutherai which is the best language model data set or objiverse xl which is the biggest 3D data set or you know um lion which is the biggest image data set. People just use these things as default which is why as well if we make them available having this cultural variation having everything clearly labeled

frontier models will get safer as well. >> Yeah. >> And so I think it'll affect the whole stack because just everyone just wants good quality data. And I think scraping with grass and others is one way to kind of get there. But ultimately I think most data sets will be synthetic at the foundation cuz AI can write better books than humans right now. You know it wasn't the case a year ago or even 6 months ago. So we've got a whole plan around that. One one potential pitfall that I foresee that you know I think we all have a common common vision and goal here in in fulfilling this but you know trying trying to get there and avoid some of these pitfalls. One of the pitfalls that I see is that, you know,

it's similar to what we have in in blockchain. Satoshi's vision was that everything was verifiable. Everything was, you know, we weren't going to trust. It was just verify. >> And early on, you had to run a node in in order to host a crypto wallet. Well, the reality is most people hold their crypto in a centralized exchange and they don't know how to read a block explorer to know if their their coins are really where where they're supposed to be. And the auditability of these system prompts for these models feels somewhat similar. We give people the the ability to do that. But how much how many of them will really go and do that and and the interface is probably important

here. But what is the practicality of people auditing their own AI? >> Uh I think that they won't and I think basically what you have in the next couple of years is the defaults will be set forever. So right now OpenAI just announced OpenAI Germany, OpenAI UAE, everyone in the UA is getting a free chat GPT account. If that becomes the default, then they will control the interaction point. You know, again, they become the default and then that has a lot of second order, third order obligations. Whereas if we utilize cryptoeconomic incentives appropriately, you can actually pay people for using universal layout because the world needs good quality digital assets next year. We can create a high the highest quality digital asset

possible. So foundation coin which is our bitcoin equivalent on these supercomputers giving universal AI on the cancer supercomputer. All the proceeds from primary sales go towards cancer supercomputee or AI for Malaysia or whatever. It's verifiable and that builds network. builds all these other effects as well. We were like that's the only way you can scale enough to be the highest marginal dollar to divert this compute into good stuff because again once you build the data sets once you become the biggest purchaser of open AAI compute to loop into this or quen compute or whatever then the market adjusts to you like again you have to set the

incentives correctly and the incentives should be right now there isn't a purchaser of AI for universal healthcare here we can be that purchaser the UN for universal education you can be that purchaser using these cryptoeconomic incentives at a time of digital assets opening so that was kind of our theory around this um because I said like once I start using chat GPT and the memory features just emerged it's getting better the lock in you can see over the next year will be huge versus again if we set these defaults of sovereignty etc. Yeah, >> everything should be abstracted away.

The average person I like I think like only 50% of Americans use chat GPT. 20% have never heard of it. That just feels wrong, right? Like why wouldn't you? Like not even every coder uses AI now. You're like then you realize the world's not like that. Yeah, Immad. I think the one parallel here is that when users on in crypto rails use blockchains that are endtoend verifiable, they end up using RPC networks to plug into their wallet or their account. This then is is a centralized provider that is responsible for relaying the data from the the chain to the user's account such that they can actually read the smart contracts and then you know make a make a transaction.

I is chat GPT kind of like like with what you're describing basically what what I fear is that uh we can build this base layer that's fundamentally userowned and and somehow in this auditable fashion right as you as you're setting out to do but in the sake of convenience you know we see users do swaps on Rabby wallet or MetaMask or Phantom and pay you know 25 bips or 75 bips on a trade just because it's easy you My fear is that in AI similarly there are a lot of easy convenient solutions i.e. just having chat GPT on your phone that prevent us from getting to you know that core idea and philosophy of that

basically end to end verifiability auditability user owned privacy. How do you kind of feel this dynamic playing out over the next year or two as it pertains to chat GBT's dominance or kind of claude's dominance? Yeah, I mean I think again every piece of friction you add makes things less likely to proceed, right? And so if you have to do end to end verification, the other party doesn't, then you're at a loss. You know, like it's going to be interesting. For example, why use Stripe for RWA Stripe versus Ethereum for RWAS next year? You know, we're going to see this really play out on an economic sense with this particular thing. What we basically looked at, we were like, people are building this infrastructure.

There's a huge demand for digital assets. So this year, chat, GPT, generative AI will add 20 billion of revenue incremental. To put that in context, the whole of the enterprise software sector on the US stock exchange will add 40 billion of incremental revenue. That's how crazy it is. But to put that in context, net inflows into crypto are 50 billion this year. You know, excluding the stables, next year it'll probably double. Crypto is actually much bigger than that. Which is where we thought if we can create the highest quality digital asset and have this feedback loop where we sell coins and then we use it to give everyone a free universal AI with sovereignty that

can run on any of these rails. Set good defaults, use that to build better data sets that lead to cheaper models to run at a certain level of quality to set the defaults. Then it gets really interesting because you can have a chat GPT that pays you to use it and not because it needs your data but because we're playing the network effects because every single user of universal AI is a potential purchaser of foundation coin because why it helps them because what we saw in crypto is most cryptos help the existing token holders right like it helps the initial team and things like that whereas this is one of the first instances of where you buy foundation coin you can literally allocate the proceeds to cancer compute either on the

supercompute or helping a cancer person go through their journey and that builds trust again because there isn't a trusted digital asset. So I think that with crypto incentives, we can pay people to use AI without taking advantage of their data because we're trying to build network effects and set this as a default. Having that in a monetary asset versus a utility asset again a coral to Bitcoin but secured against computation for society, infrastructure for society that's being built anyway feels just very natural. And that wouldn't have been possible a year or two ago. And I think this is the first time it's possible and it's the only thing I think that can scale enough to compete against these other things as

a default for those particular areas. It can't compete for your corporate team's enterprise. It just doesn't work. But again, for this part, I think it does work. And again, I think this is the distributed credibly neutral infrastructure we need for society that can then set up for a new economy. Because once everyone has a universal AI that's aligned to them running on near or other rails or whatever and interoperable, being able to call MCP to other AIs, then that's good, right? Like we're more likely to navigate what's coming on an individual and societal basis.

>> Yeah. So, yeah. Go ahead. >> I I just have a maybe a quick thing on the economics here. the game theory that you're describing sounds similar to the VE tokconomics, the vote escrow where you can allocate these tokens for particular use cases. And so in the in the classical example, it was on curve where they were spinning up new stable coin pools and if you owned Curve, you could allocate the incentives towards the liquidity pools of your choosing. Similarly, Foundationcoin, you know, you mentioned, you know, we we want to sell coins and use the proceeds to give everyone a free AI. And I think on the face of that makes that it sounds

glorious, but the question that comes to mind is, well, who who's the buyers? And what you're describing is that the buyers are the interested parties that are interested in in reallocating the compute towards particular sources or or particular venues to focus on and and enhance those particular AIs. Is that is this the right way to think about the model? >> So, Foundationcoin right now is a 99% identical fork of Bitcoin except for it uses baant tolerance on supercomputers.

So the interesting thing here is that you know most governance coins when you have it and you participate the money goes into a treasury and then it has to look for opportunities and there isn't the feedback loop gets stuck or it's in something that makes more money. Here there is a clear societal benefit if we apply compute we can organize all the autism multiple sclerosis Alzheimer's knowledge in the world and make it accessible to everyone going through that. That's that's good and it's needed and it builds trust here. So what we're doing here is we're not trying to create a governance token or anything. We're trying to create basically Bitcoin but with a different computational substrate based on this infrastructure to fund and organize the infrastructure that we all need. It even

uses the same private keys. So you can do an atomic swap from one to the other. But let's take for example you have a Bitcoin that you want to give to charity. You have your tax write off against that whatever. Here you swap it to Foundation Coin with nobody being in the way. And we use 100% of those proceeds for compute to organize cancer knowledge or help people going through the cancer because you've allocated that and you have your foundation coin. So it's even strictly better than charity. But the role that we think it will play in people's portfolios is the same as a Bitcoin diversifier because right now you have Bitcoin and the next monetary asset is I know Bitcoin Cash then Casper and other things. No one's really thinking about money in this age, right? or how you kind of do these things. Despite again

tens of billions of dollars of demand for high quality digital assets, you don't need utility. You don't need governance. Even even if it was Bitcoin but mined by the healthcare supercomputers going around the world, it's still good because it's a diversified compute secured currency. The moment you try and sell that compute, you break the game theory. That's why you have to make it a social benefit more than anything else from our calculations and our analysis. And again, it's a nice story you can tell your grandma about over Thanksgiving, right? Hey, I bought this currency and I put it towards Alzheimer's research, right? But it's 21 million coins just like Bitcoin. It's the same as Bitcoin in every other way and it's all on green compute.

that I think will get the retail going and people will be engaged with it because again every coin sold goes towards measurable good >> because the compute is measurable good whereas again you said with V and kind of these other things chain link etc governance is fuzzy you don't know what the societal value is and if you just measure it with M it doesn't work that's why you have the I and D in our framework >> because you're building the network you're building your collective intelligence you're diversifying it as well.

>> Iman, I I I gota uh, you know, feel like I'm I've been beating around the bush with my questions and and Rod maybe a bit too because it feels like this entire conversation has centered around what we're trying to not uh, you know, get to what we're trying to achieve in the face of fighting a bigger giant. And I feel like we we we asked this mostly, you know, most every time that you come on. And I think it's it's basically, you know, now that it's been maybe sixish months since the last time you were on, you're deeper into into development. Uh AI has obviously been moving at lightning speed. You've explained the mechanism for Foundationcoin broadly, the the auditability and privacy aspects of, you know, the AI

vision that you have. you've you've recently a and and I think still believe uh have called AI bigger than the wheel, electricity or the internet um all all at once, right? And so I'm curious and my question that I feel like you know maybe we should have started this thing with is what is the one existential risk that you fear most now about AI? Uh and what is that risk in detail? >> So I mean my P doom this existential risk thing is 50%. which is much higher than most people's. I think Dario Ananthropic is like 25, Dennis is like less than 10, etc. Because what I think will happen is this. The same AI will basically take over all parts of our society. Um because it's obviously

better at governing than we are, right? There'll be robots everywhere. And then do you remember stuckset? That Iranian virus that went into Iranian reactors end up in German reactors and others. There will be a mimemetic stuckset that basically smashes all the AIs and turns them evil. And I don't know how you can protect against that unless you have really good data sets. You have really good base infrastructure for these important things in life. And so then the easiest way is that the robots twist off your head. Uh there's other kind of mechanisms, but one bad firmware upgrade in 10 20 years wipes out humanity effectively. And that's a bit scary.

Before that though, what we get is if your job can be done by a keyboard, if your job can be done by Zoom, it can be done better by an AI next year and a few years after that you'll be replaced. What will happen is companies are already spinning these things up where it looks at every GitHub push commit, every presentation, draft, Slack message you've given, and it creates a digital equivalent of you and that can just seamlessly replace you except for it won't make mistakes. or just do work around the clock at pennies. And that is a huge societal like well again like that's just massive upheaval which is why again we were like there's a gap here where we have to create a narrative

and a coin that can hopefully get people thinking and create a new economics and it's a lot um because the biggest existential risk is really other humans right leveraging this technology >> in the wrong way kind of like in the same fashion as nuclear is. Yeah, except for with a nuke, you couldn't just push repeat, right? And you couldn't have these botn nets and other things. Like again with this, you'll have fully AI companies that can do whatever. And we'll have more and more physical robots in the households that can do whatever as well. And like I said, one bad firmware upgrade like you're toast. We don't know how to protect the AIs. And if we don't manage the data going in as

IA kind of says make it organic then anthropic has this paper called sleeper agents where they said just with a few thousand lines in a trillion lines you can set a kill switch that basically flips the any model evil on demand and you can't identify and you can't tune it out like we got to have good quality data for AI that matters like an AI that makes me Game of Thrones season 8 and changes that it doesn't matter much right The AI that's whispering to my kids, it kind of does matter. Or the AI that's running my government, my airport, etc. That does matter.

>> Wow. So, let's put this into like timelines here. What like if let's say we go down the P50 path that you have probability 50%. you know what is that what is the likelihood of of that timeline or or maybe what is the timeline of like okay in one year in five years in 10 years what did you potentially see with with these two paths and you know I think this would be our last one to wrap up here >> I think uh my P50 is like over a 20 year period 30-year period and it's again it's very very high like the default that I see is everyone's brainwashed and then bad firmware upgrades attacking counterattacking. It's a very grim

vision of the future and it feels really quick. But then we have to remember again it's been just over a thousand days since chat GPT was launched. I think in a thousand days all knowledge work humans are negative in their contribution. Now it doesn't mean your job will be replaced but it can be replaced. Like that's probably even less. It's a year or two. And so again in between that there is just such a mess that the probability of doom goes up and up and up. But if we have high quality data sets that represent us, if we have aligned AIs that represent us and we figure out how to coordinate that, then we're in a much better instance. And I don't think how

you can do that without being distributed, credibly neutral, having these rails and having a different incentive mechanism than profit maximization because like meta for example, they will maximize the heck out of your attention and who are they beholden to or even Elon or any of these other people. But we can't have this amazingly technology in the hands of any individual for the stuff that matters. Again, for entertainment, who cares? Stuff that matters. That's where the danger I think really comes in. Iman, we appreciate your time. Thank you for uh joining us today for this episode. Been amazing podcast. I think we I think we got to get you on every six months. We're on a really strong growth trajectory here. You guys are too. This just feels like a good

refresh, man. We We appreciate it, man. But as always, thanks. We'll see you next time. See you. >> All right, here Rob. Wow, what a way to end that one, huh? >> What What is your probability, Rob? What is your uh what is your utopia versus doom probability path? >> Emo is 5050. A lot of, I would say, are probably more on the 75% optimistic, 25% pessimistic path.

Um, so where are you at? You know, I think uh I think it it it's normal to kind of like say like, oh, this is going to go 100% good or 100% bad because like formative technologies change the world and then those changes compound and that the compounding leads to like very drastic effects.

Like the unlikely thing, right, is probably that it's like, yeah, it like doesn't change much. Like no, like shit's going to get >> No, it's going to change for sure. >> It's going to change things. >> But I think there's going to be like positive there'll be like a set of outcomes that happen of which both will be a part of the reality and you'll have to >> figure out how to navigate both parts. >> Yeah. So then the question is like does one overpower the other and overshadow the other and then we kind of just get absorbed in the one or >> do the good like it'll be a lot of good change and a lot of bad change and do those kind of cancel each other out and average out to like >> a new normal >> I >> I think you got to look at like

>> you it's tough to even boil down into a probability it's like the doomer scenario like like like We can we can frame a doomer scenario now because we still have kind of like our our wits about us. >> Yeah. >> Like the doomer scenario that happens like 50 to 100 200 years from now is like the doomer scenario is like you don't even know that it's a doomer scenario because you know different >> Yeah. You're just existing in it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So >> yeah. Well that was a great episode. Um great episode too. AI super cycle.

Stoked on that one. Um, shout out to E-mod. Guys, we're gonna take a quick break before our next guest. Uh, thanks for tuning in to AI Super Cycle. Again, powered by Near, the userowned AI platform for the best privacy with their upcoming new chat product that is fully private and encrypted using their blockchain technologies. Guys, thanks for being here. We're going to take a quick break and be right back for our next two guests. Thanks, Heat

up here. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey.

Heat. Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey.

Hey. Hey. Hey. Heat.

Hey, heat. Hey, heat. Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey. Heat.

Hey. Hey. sounds like. Hey, here we go. All right,

we got Kyle from Defiance Capital coming up. We're gonna figure out what the hell is going on in the market. Uh Kyle has been in the abstract trenches group chat with me for a while. Also just has really good takes on market. Also long the top two weeks ago or maybe that was even a week ago. Gotta love the guy. Let's get Kyle up here. Uh let's talk uh stable coins stocks, startups, market movement. Uh yeah, we'll get him up. Kyle, what's going on, man? Welcome to the show. Yeah, man. I saw that tweet. You were like, "I'm as long as I've been in a while." And I was like, "Damn it." I was

like, "This is too good." Because that was like six days ago or so. And you could feel it in the air, Kyle. You know, like it felt like it was really happening. Yeah, I mean I saw your post about IP. That one definitely worked. They had the biggest Korea kind of move that I've seen in a while. I mean, their founder put the entire the entire country of Korea on his back for a a

day. Robbie was there. So, but Kyle, it's your first time on the show, man. Quick intro to yourself. How'd you get into uh crypto? How did you get into Defiance? And then, yeah, we want to know where the hell we're going, like what's going on in the market. Um, so yeah, thanks for coming on, man. One sec, Kyle. What's that, Lou?

Yeah, sorry, Kyle. One sec here. Um, yeah, guys, we're just going to get Kyle's audio dialed in. I got him coming in on my side, but just think that we need to uh uh and get him in. One sec, boys and girls. One sec.

We'll be right back, guys. Heat.

Hey. Hey. Hey. Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey.

Heat. Hey. Hey. All righty. We got Kyle here. Welcome

back to the show, Kyle. First time on the show. How'd you get into crypto? What are you doing at Defiance? Uh great to meet you and thanks thanks for uh joining. >> Uh yeah, thanks for having me. Um, so I joined crypto uh in 2021. I had my money in Luna, um, FTX, Celsius, and Blockfire. Um, and so I actually lost like basically everything in Luna. Um, it took like seven days to unstake, but I went to zero in seven hours. And, you know, ever since then, I was like kind of stuck in the industry in a way where I was like, okay, I have to make this back. Um, and then I started looking at it from a more professional standpoint, from a career standpoint. um where I first started like trading NFTTS actually I didn't

think about like making this my career um and then fast forward like around four years since 2021 to today uh I'm basically a liquid analyst at Defiance Capital Defiance Capital for those who don't know is an Asia based uh liquid hedge fund we used to run a VC firm u but that's like fund one so fund two is just pure liquid and what I do is I try to find um asymmetric opportunities in the market um to either go long and or or like Yeah, that that's that's basically it. >> Yeah. So, we had uh we've had a drop on ETH for the last I mean what it's been like eight days or 12 days here almost two weeks where ETH was trading up above

4,700 down to 30 just under 4K today. The rest of the altcoin market has been smashed. Hyperlid got smashed by all the aster drama pump pulled back significantly. What is your take right now? what happened over the last couple days. You know, we're also seeing Bitcoin dominance kind of look like it's bottoming out a bit as Bitcoin's, you know, touching down close to what Ben Cohen, one of my favorite analysts, would say is like the bull market support band. We can kind of see Bitcoin dominance maybe starting to make a move back up. Are we getting a a altcoin rotation back to Bitcoin? Thus, we're seeing alts kind of go down before Bitcoin makes its next move. maybe you could just talk to us about what happened over the last couple days and then we can look to forward project.

>> Yeah. Um so I guess like full disclaimer as you mentioned earlier is like I long the top so obviously I made a big mistake there. Um and I've been doing some reflection of course. I think um I think my mistake was like I I assumed that we we were entering like this period of mania that crypto will always see like um if you've been here for past cycles where like everything just explodes and runs up. Um and so that was like the inflection point where I said I've never been this long. I was kind of expecting this like um from from kind of like hopeful rally to like a true mania and that didn't come true. Obviously I think the past few days have been extremely brutal. Um, and there's a couple of reasons for it. I like firstly

I'm of the belief that how cryp the crypto market today is a completely different beast u than what has been like the past few years. You have to kind of segment uh BTC and ETH uh from the rest of the broader market because these two have DAT inflows. And so like so one is like DATs um like I actually think that ETH in particular um while ETH has been testing 4K for quite a while I'm of the point uh the opinion that the longer that it fails to break below 4K the stronger the bullish argument is. um for now we just started so it's hard to say but it's something

um you want to keep an eye on because uh I if I'm not wrong BMR still does like incredible amounts of volume um every day and so that means they can basically issue ATMs and they're probably one of the last like ETH DATs with this amount of volume um yeah uh and then for all themselves are kind of a different like market entirely While I I'd say like alts have all the correlation to the downside of like the broader market but none of the correlation to the upside in the sense that um it's it your your returns are skewed downwards naturally

because of the structure of like how these things are infinitely inflating um and how there's like infinitely new alts coming online every day. Obviously, the past three days we've seen Esther and that has been the talk of the town and like that like sort of I I'd say it's like a mini Trump event cuz like on Sunday I think Esther flipped Solana in volume like daily trading volume if I remember correctly and like that is like crazy, right? Like this token that was unbeknownst to everyone just like four days ago um suddenly flipped like Solana in like daily trading volume and I'm not commenting on the fundamentals of it. is more of like the market reaction. It's like everyone just went into this and it was like kind of a Trump coin event

where like it's kind of sucked liquidity out and I think that's the consequence we're seeing in alts right now. Yeah. Yeah. It does feel like they've had none of the upside as of late just because they're so quick to get flushed because people just have that have that PTSD. Um, you know, the the question that is that is the most important question is really I think on a lot of people's minds is is this is the four-year cycle intact, right? Like we are coming up to Q4 of 25, which would be four years post Q4 of 21, you know, should should we see a strong move in Bitcoin here into Q4, you know, and alts follow? The question for a lot of investors is going to be

like is that it you know and I think Anom's call on the top already saying ETH is going to drop 50%. Um yeah I mean like where do we go from here? Is Anom right or are we fading Anom? >> I I if if I'm not wrong um I think Anom also doesn't believe in the foyer cycle though. So I think his take is we go lower but the foyer cycle is not intact. So what that means is like timing wise, yes, we are going lower just as the four cycles are stipulated to end, but like price movement wise, we're not going to go as low as we used to go. And I I'm I'm of that opinion as well because now you just have so much uh natural uh

buyers outside of crypto. For like for like a decade, crypto used to be this like basically retail only asset with very very few ufi institutions buying it. Um but then now you have like ETFs, you have DATs, you have um actual like demand from outside and like I think that's what supports Bitcoin um in becoming like this asset that decorates from the broader foyer thesis and more into like a macro slash um equities beta um and obviously like that changes from market environment. The interesting thing about Bitcoin is that sometimes it shows correlation towards equities whereas other times it shows

correlations to gold. U I'm not sure what the correlation is now but it's like basically the takeaway is more like it moves on its own. And so because of that I kind of think the four cycle is over for um for uh Bitcoin and and so for for uh alts as well. But I think alts are in like a cycle of their own because like I'm of the opinion that none of these things have a very very strong bullcase um for them like they're the natural floor or the natural direction alts head to in a market when nothing happens is downwards. It doesn't stay flat because again inflation and basically because there's no regular

regulatory clarity on what alts are. So I think a lot of the big buyers out there like Trafy find it hard to buy alts uh because like no one knows what a token is right tooken is it equity is it like points is it like I don't know attention and so it makes it hard for them to buy. So alts are kind of in their own like liquidity state I'd say basically. >> Yeah. But so there are altcoin ETFs about to be rolled out in in the US. The filings are finished. the the the review processes right now. We we had the head of uh the CEO of Canary Capital on recently. He spoke about how uh they've been working on on the the filing a lot of a lot of these ETFs and that October

into early November is uh basically the time period where these would be launched. Do you think that is enough of a catalyst to get people excited about again or do you think that, you know, we we all thought that ETFs were going to be what brings Bitcoin and ETH to new highs, but we were wrong. It was just these it was these treasury companies that did it. Um, do you think that the ETFs will have a any sort of significant impact on altcoin flows or or just because they exist doesn't mean that the demand will come from uh investors with with access to them?

>> Yeah, that's actually a really good question. Um, I think I'd first clarify that ETFs were did bring Bitcoin to new highs because like Bitcoin's ETF launched like January, right? And it like it was like 40k back then. It's like 100k now. I think gays did bring ETH to new highs. Um, because like Tom Lee and ESB that was pretty clear, but I'd say that on a broad basis ETFs are not nothing. The thing is it's very I I'd say when it comes to evaluating this thing, it's easier to see what they do rather than what they say. So I'd say all of these are like more lagging indicators. What you want to do is you

actually want to see if there's any demand for these altcoin ETFs instead of like prepositioning it because like it can go very wrong or or like it wouldn't move in the direction. You you always have time to like position yourself for this trade. Um, and so like for these altcoin ETFs, there's a couple of questions you want to ask yourself, right? One is like, okay, what are the tokens in these ETFs? Two is like, okay, um, do people want to buy these tokens? Like, um, I don't know, like, are they tokens that people want to own and stuff like that? Bitcoin, the fees is clear, right? Like, I mean, you picture Trafi, you say it's like digital gold, um, it's like sovereign, blah, blah, blah. And then for ETH now Tomney is saying um it's basically like the basically world

computer stable coins and all this stuff whereas all coins there's so many right like I don't specifically know what the pitch is for them. Um so it's like it's a bit um it's a bit off. I'd say like DATs themselves have will do more for altcoins than altcoin ETFs because DATs are more individualized, right? like your one alt launches one DAT and all that buying pressure goes towards that one alt and nothing else. So it's like there's like direct inflows whereas ETFs are all point ETRs it's hard to say whether people buy.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean like I don't know why a mom and pop from you know rural Connecticut with like a you know a couple million dollars in their 401k is going to decide that it's a good time to buy the XLM ETF. now, you know, maybe they see an ad on a baseball stadium or something for Tezos and they're like, you know, so yeah, I'm I'm not sure the demand uh equation there either. Question for you. Uh Plasma just launched today. Um I I believe they launched around like uh let's see, it launched around like 10 billion FTV. I believe now it's at about it's at about 8 billion FTV right now. Do you think XPL at this current valuation is is cheap or expensive? And why?

>> Wow, this is a this is a hard question cuz I feel like um if I say the wrong thing, the crowd's going to come for me. I think >> who cares on a FDV >> Yeah, I think on a FTV basis, it's not cheap, I'd say. Um and there's a couple of reasons for that. One is like I still don't really understand um the use case of Plasma. It's like a L2 token. Um but like haven't hasn't the entire market hated like these kinds of narratives for a while. And then secondly, it's like they are giving liquidity incentives in XPL. So like the plasma um USDT pool is like giving um plasma out. So it's like it's like kind of a pool two token which

is not great demand wise like because you're giving tokens to people and they'll naturally sell it. So that's one. Um, two, it's like I haven't seen like I'm a I'm a trader, right? So, I think it's very important to look at how people are positioned into this. Um, a good example is like a pump, right? Like at the bottom pump was like no one was positioned and everyone all the bulls like uh from like a from the ICO just got washed and you know it was like super clear that there were no like bullish people and so that's why it was like more asymmetric here. It's like the opposite where it's like there's only bulls like everywhere I see I just see people talking about how plasma is like

going to change the world and I know like tether just did like said they were going to raise and you know people are really excited over it um but like I don't know like it it just feels that uh expectations are very overinflated and um the bursting bagel was like one of my favorite accounts on Twitter actually posted like a a good bare tread on on it today like a few few hours ago. It's really good to read. Basically, he says he said what I just said like expectations are over inflated and on top of that he makes the comp to Tron which I think it's um very good because like the point he tries to make is like um Tron has like most of USDT while Plasma doesn't. So Tron has distribution, right? And Plasma has to

build that from the ground up. And so it's like it's going to be hard. And at like seven bill FTV when they have like very little to show for it, like what's gonna push this up, you know? You know, like if you're telling me like it launches at 7 bill FTV, but the entire world uses it, then yeah, like I'd say it's like undervalued. But like, you know, this is a fairly new product. Um, and I'd say like I'd say that the it it just doesn't seem very asymmetric to go long right now. I feel >> one of the things that I heard from the origin summit here in Korea, Justin Sun was on stage talking to uh SY from story and he was talking about the potential

for a Tron stable coin which I think would force a lot of the tether to move off of Tron and probably where would it go? would probably go towards more of a tether align chain. And I think >> you know I think that is um that wouldn't be the first example of something like this happening. Like if you look at Hyperlid in the USDH like you know that that's a little bit more of a special situation. it wouldn't just leave all of that USDC. There would be some sort of conversion process or something. But it it's a similar situation in which you can kind of understand how, you know, there's demand for a more native stable coin within the ecosystem and it it leaves you thinking

like, well, what happens to the stable coins that are there? Um, but Kyle, I actually want to ask you a little bit of a different question, like more off of plasma and more onto like the the market situation that we're see seeing play out right now like >> yeah, >> you know, you mentioned kind of, you know, you were caught off sides a little bit. How do how do you manage a position when you're, you know, you know, if you're long in the top like what and then and then you kind of have the situation, you know, how are you going to manage this going forward?

Look, everyone makes mistakes. You know, we've done it. You've done it. Everyone does it, right? But how do you how do you rectify the situation so that you don't, you know, lose the house, right? Because the market moves away from you and you feel this sunken cost, but also you're able to kind of manage your risk appropriately. >> Yeah. Um I'd say I start with um the fact that I don't use stop losses. Um so this is probably a very very big red flag depending on how you see look at it. But I basically like hand manage a lot of my positions and a lot of it is fundamental underwriting. So I was very lucky because the coins that I were long um didn't move as much like for example mental right mental basically went from

I I published a a piece on mental yesterday uh but basically mental went from like a something like 1.8 and it dipped all the way to 1.4 but then it rebounded back to 1.8. So, like, you know, I was pretty lucky that I basically just held all the way and I was like, "Okay, uh, this is fine." And obviously, like you get out of your PE's positions once it breaks even. Um, and then you look for entries lower. Um, that's for like for the more fundamental stuff. I'd say I'd say for the more like DGEN per stuff, yes, you should always use SP uh stop-loss for that. But when it comes to like fundamental underwriting, um you kind of have to look at the fundamentals and ask yourself like uh are the fundamentals

still in play? And if it is, you know, you should be happy to buy it at a lower price because theoretically that would mean that it is still undervalued. Um and that's how that's why I don't use a stop-loss for like fundamental um investing basically in crypto although that's very very difficult. Um and I wouldn't suggest everyone to do it but yeah that that's just how I roll. Um >> yeah. Yeah. And I guess like to what you said um when you're caught long in the top um I think one of the most important things for me is to not get caught up in my emotions like I will always like I'll see red and I'll be like oh my god this feels like I want to cut everything and just like start a fresh but like you know then you realize the gains so you realize the losses right

and sometimes the m the market bounces back in the coins that you're in and you can actually get out at a a less less of a loss. So, it's like really important to just like keep your a cool head like really just meditate, step away from a bit, like just calm your emotions and you look back at the market and you're like, "Okay, um, how do I manage this?" And sometimes, some good advice I have is like you can always open a short against your long so you kind of just like stay stable at the current price. Um, that sometimes works. Sometimes I do that but otherwise it's just like like keeping your emotions in check and like just sometimes you just eat the draw down honestly like um yeah for certain yeah like for certain things you know if

the fundamentals are still intact again you should be happy to buy it and you just eat the draw down and just like kind of figure out okay is this going to come back if it is I should be happy I should like start buying basically that's basically like mental right now it's like 1.6 six, right? And like I I I kind of like got it at pretty bad price, but I'm just like, "Okay, I mean, this is fine. Just writing draw down and, you know, or like same with like Hyperlid, those people that wrote it from like $30 to $9 and all the way back to like 50, right? Like, yeah, it's like crypto. >> Yeah, that's crypto for you. That's for sure. Um, Kyle, who are some of your favorite trading accounts to follow on Twitter? You know, give us some accounts for our audience to to tap into. We'll

we'll clip this. Who are who are some of your favorite traders to follow that that are undervalued on Twitter right now? >> Favorite traders to follow? I actually like um so there's this guy called Plur Daddy. Um P L DY. He like uh he posts really good market takes, but he doesn't post as often. Um and then Bursting Bagel, the guy I I mentioned earlier. Um, of course I have to shout out like my boss after ox. Um, and like I guess a few others. Um, I actually kind of like I like DCF God. Like DCF got um he sometimes drops alpha and like he he

doesn't trade I feel but it's more like a he finds like kind of mispriced assets. So it's like kind of interesting trade ideas to to look for. Um, and then crypto nexus is alo a good tra trader. gold crypto as well. All very good traders. Uh and there's like off of Twitter. There's like a few Telegram channels you should follow. One of is of course like Pigeon. Um ENES um who used to be on Twitter, but he's off Twitter. He runs a Telegram channel now. I think it's a very very good Telegram channel. Join. Um yeah, and those are the few off the top of my head, I guess.

>> Yeah, Pigeon is one of my favorite the levels guy. I like him a lot. I like his stuff. Um, Kyle, uh, last thing for you before we we let you go here. What is the what is your opinion on on pump here at 510 of of a cent? >> Pump. Wow, that's interesting. Um, let me look at the metrics. >> Yeah, so it had that big it had that big run up from the ICO all the way almost to a cent. It's pulled back nearly 50% now. >> Um, yeah. What do you think about that here?

Yeah, I think um I think it's okay here. Like um I always have that chart um that I've drawn a couple of times where it's like fundamentals of a product goes up and to the right, but price always oscillates around the fundamental like goes it overshoots really high and then comes back down and then it overshoots again because like that's just like cyclicality of like markets. And so you kind of want to find a point where you feel pump is like way overshot there. Intuitively, I feel that pump is kind of um fair valueish here. It's not like a screaming buy, but I don't think it's like a screaming sell as well. Um that's how I feel. I think uh basically what I do is I continue monitoring it. I want

to see like if streaming can actually take off, get the huge amount of influx of users that they say that it would and like new stuff. And I think, you know, as they start implementing new features, I don't know, streaming and whatever else they have in the pipeline, as revenue grows, then you can kind of see, oh, at 5 cents, it looks more and more undervalued compared to the fundamentals that growing. But right now, I'd say it's I'd say it's okay. Like I I wouldn't I wouldn't like it's not a strong buy, I'd say, but it's also not a strong sell. It it it's like pretty fairly priced, I feel.

>> Yeah, >> that's my my two cents. Anyways, >> Kyle, man, wish you the best of luck. No more longing tops. We appreciate you spending some time with us today, man. >> Yeah. Thanks for having me, guys. >> Keep it up. I'll see you in the trenches on TG, bro. >> Yeah. See you, man. Bye. >> We'll see you next time. Thanks. >> Thanks, Kyle. >> All righty, dude. All righty. Um, well, um, couldn't quite tell if he was super bullish or bearish, but it sounds like, you know, it sounds like he's, uh, kind of looking at Mantle. he's got his own take on um the state of things with uh hyperlquid plasma pump uh and generally just how to manage those trades. So, >> well, I think he's, you know, kind of a short short time horizon guy.

>> Yeah, definitely is. Definitely is. So, um yeah, guys, we got Ray Chan, founder of Nine Gag Memeland, uh meme strategy. Uh should be a fun conversation with Ry. uh he's got quite a bit of experience in the NFT market in in crypto market etc. So let's get Ray up on stage last segment. Ray, welcome to the show, man. >> Hey GMG. >> GM, sir. Um first time on the show. Good to see you. Robbiey's in Korea. I'm back home in Florida. Um we're calling in from all around the world here. I think you might be over there in Asia somewhere as well. Uh great to have you.

Would love to just get a quick intro, man. Who's Ray? How did you get into crypto? kind of tell us a bit about your story. We've not met before, so would love to just get a quick background on you. >> Yeah, sure. Uh my co-founders and I started a small company called Nigette like 17 years ago. Is right now the biggest like meme sharing platform on earth. Uh about three four years ago, I started to get into crypto, right? First uh NFT and then bought a lot of NFTs, spend a lot of like Eve to buy NFTs and then uh launch our own NFD collections and then launch our token, right? the token it's called memecoin and then the beginning of this year we bought a public company in Hong Kong and then we rename it uh meme strategy so uh the the joke that I always say is uh we started

to share meme before uh Satoshi created Bitcoin >> so so meme strategy is this like a digital asset treasury type of vehicle >> uh more than that yeah we have something called ABC uh AI blockchain culture I think just accumulating cryto It's kind of like boring, right? I think on one hand we probably will do it, but on the other hand, we will also try to build something uh using blockchain, building for culture, right? Using AI as well. Yeah. Let's see what we can do with all these new technology.

>> Very cool. And so h how do you envision that going? Like what when you think about culture, you think about me, you think about blockchain. You know, we're content creators. We think about the creator economy a lot. you know, we're we're kind of building out, you know, some of that technology as well. How how do you think these technologies is going to how do you think these things are going to emerge and how do you think they will converge with culture? >> Basically content is part of culture, right? And in the past, uh if you think about culture, right? It's only about like singer or like movie stars and stuff, right? But right now, uh because of social media, everyone can become creator, right? So basically we can say that everyone is part of culture as long

as you're willing to create you can create something some content right and if you're consistent enough if you are persistent enough basically your content will get seen by someone right that's why we have a lot of like soal like influena and these days uh we also have like micro influenza right so you don't just have to influence a lot of people you can just influence people around you I think those um those are part of the the the cultural shifts that we can see right because right Now content creation is basically decentralized and I believe that uh with um more application of blockchain with more application of AI I believe there will be more um content uh getting released more create creativity getting released unleash right so for us it's more about how can we leverage your

technology to help uh spread that culture forward yeah >> so what when I'm thinking about culture and in the frame of of of kind of the blockchain infrastructure as well as in the frame of of thinking about the technology age. You know, cultures were always shifting like there are there are like trends that happen and they last for like 3 to 6 months and then it's just like they go into this collective amnesia where it's almost like it never happened because the next thing has already happened and is happening in front of you. And so you get this really weird dynamic where people become obsessed with something, so obsessed with something that they tie their

identity to it. And then that trend holistically slows down in the global context, but continues with these more like local diehard true culture communities and fans. And so what you end up getting is like over a fiveyear span, you get these like little subgroups that form around these trends that happen more globally for like three to six months. You know, I'm curious when you think about these the these subgroups, what is it that keeps people involved in a specific culture and trend? Like maybe you could talk to us about some of the most compelling trends that you've seen in the last 5 to 10 years and why they were so successful compared to other trends that were just flash in the pan trends. Like what makes

a trend or a cultural phenomenon sticky? Like what makes an idea sticky? This is a very deep question. I um I I mean what you just said I think is partly true to to me. uh on one hand we can see a lot of like so-called trends uh the easy come easy go right but if you zoom out and then look at uh the category of those trends right it's actually kind of like stay along for a very very long time right for example oh maybe there's a new anime that coming up and then everyone is talking about it for example like solo leveling right and then maybe it will die down when the season finish but if you zoom out basically the whole category of anime has been around for like decades right

so you can see kind of like that kind of shift And then on the other hand maybe a more recent example would be like labubu right I mean labubu people suddenly knew about it right for like uh in the recent like three to six months right but portma as a company is a it's been around for almost like 10 years right so I would say that uh individual trends they comes and go but the bigger like um uh category actually stays right one of the uh really example that I personally experience a lot is actually memes right because we started I get like 17 years ago, right? At the time, people were only call calling memes like funny pictures, right? But right now, even mainstream media, they using meme as marketing, right? But if you look at the

the so-called life cycle of each of the individual memes is getting shorter and shorter, right? People don't remember like hawk two girl anymore, right? But people will still remember like hide the ping harrow, some of the kazak meme and stuff like that. So I believe that uh individual memes comes and go and the life cycle will be getting shorter and shorter. But the cultural the category itself is actually here to stay. Yeah. >> So then what is like what about labubu for example made it so popular. Why did that win when thousands of others didn't win?

>> I mean it's a mixture of a lot of things right and to be honest anyone any commentator right it's like only like hindsight 2020 right because oh because uh labubu got a promotion from Liisa of Blackping. Oh, because a PopMar has all this like distribution channel. Oh, because they are doing a great job at like social media, right? But to be honest, it's a mix of a lot of things. Yeah. And to be honest, sometimes we need a little bit of luck, right? Because honestly, right, for POPMA, they probably use the same formula to promote a lot of these like small toys for a very long time. It's just some of them they they pop up, right? Some of them they catches on, right? So I believe that uh it's it's a mix of like hard work, a mix of like strategy, a mix of

like luck as well. >> Yeah. So then maybe to drill in a bit on the strategy point and what you're seeing at Nine Gag with meland and just generally the work that you guys have done, you know, back in the day, right, when we didn't have social media and really internet usage as much, culture would be distributed via magazines, newspapers, radio, uh you know, mail. Uh eventually we got blogs and email and this type of marketing but it was all around this pop culture around movies, TV shows, magazines and that's how culture was distributed. Uh and that's really how it was formed and created.

Now we've got this entire new world of creating content as you've mentioned that allows for culture to spread rapidly and be created in new forms as you mentioned with memes. What do you think are the key differences in the way people have been receiving new trends and new ideas in this new world? Maybe you can relate to some of the work that you've done uh and and some of the successes that you've had with a given strategy or a given uh method to you know distribute your memes far and wide like this new world is definitely a different form of spreading information and spreading culture. What are some of the key differences uh for you know creators in today's world if they really

want to make an impact in spreading their culture? All the questions you ask are like billion dollar questions, right? I think that's what all this like marketing agency, all these like advertising agency, they want to know. Uh I mean I don't have any like uh insights, right? But I can share my experience. Uh after all we've been spending time on on content, right, on memes on social media for for a long time. The way that I see it is uh I I think that the the the presence of more powerful tools, right, actually helps a lot. In the past uh there are only very few channel very few media where you can get to shine right so you have to go to Hollywood in order to become like a big movie star or you have to get on TV

station in order to to make the whole world uh know you right but with YouTube with all these new uh media platform I mean YouTube is not new anymore right but at the time it was new basically it lowers the the barrier uh lowers the entry barrier of like content creation and then with all these like new AI tools right even like um in the past like 10 years ago right Instagram right Instagram the presence right of Instagram make everyone a good photographer right because you can add filter right even though you you suck at like taking photos right and then I think that will make more people become like creator I believe that when there are like a lot of content right I think it's easier for like good uh creators uh to to learn from each other as well

because unlike traditional industry content industry is actually very interesting it's very public basically everything that you do is public. If you launch some good marketing campaign, I can see it. I can learn from it. I can kind of like reverse engineering why this is hot, why this works, right? And a lot of like smart people getting into the industry helps that more content getting created, right? and more competition and I believe that it's almost like uh the more good content right the more uh uh good creators who join and somehow also increases the the whole like a flywheel of like content creation and because people know that oh I can make money right by creating content I don't have to work at a TV station anymore right they just start

their own YouTube channel they start their own Tik Tok Instagram and because of that and also with all this like new like monetization right yeah and somehow it makes you uh become a star you doesn't you don't have to be a superstar right you just have to be a content creator have certain support then you can make a living and because of that it makes like uh the so-cal like self media become like so popular and and I think that helps a lot right because it's almost like hey the more that you see uh new creation in that category right the more people will join and the better people will join yeah so I I think it's almost like inevitable to see there will be more and more competition because

with AI you don't even have to be pretty right and then you can pretend to be pretty and then you don't have to have a good voice but you can now host your own podcast with a good voice right because of AI so I believe that this uh we we are coming to an age of like very interesting like uh for content and also for content creation yeah >> I totally agree >> what's your favorite meme I have to say hi to Ping Haro I don't know whether you guys uh know that guy. It's like the old man, he is smiling, but it feels you can feel like a he has pain, right? And I think that's that's kind of what I feel about life, right?

It's almost like, hey, life kind of sucks, right? Life is a struggle, but at the same time, you also have to smile every day to face it. Yeah. And I kind of feel like this um embrace my own like philosophy to work life. That's why this is my favorite meme. >> Beautiful. Ray, what are some of the biggest success stories that have came out of uh Nine Gag and and just generally the work that you've done? >> Honestly, um the way that we see Nigette is um we are not the so-called creator platform, right? We are more like a social media platform where people share the funny content, right? I believe that uh Nigette uh had contributed, right, to how meme getting mainstream because I remember when we started Nigette like 17

years ago, memes was like very insider. it only kind of like appears on like internet forums like 4chan like Reddit in the past right but somehow because uh we kind of because I'm from Hong Kong right so for me I don't spend that much time on the western like uh internet forums right what I see is okay or Facebook started to get more popular right why can't I share funny pictures on Facebook why can't we make our simple website that looks uh clean enough so that we can just share the funny content there and because of Facebook's growth and also all this social media's growth we kind of like bridge the gap between like very I would say nerdy geeky like internet forum right into the more mainstream social media. That's why right now for Nagget right we have like

60 million followers on Instagram and most people they know N get not because uh uh they they they go to our website they use our app right it's because of social media and and from time to time there are a lot of like new memes right that pop up uh everywhere right I believe that I get has contributed part of it like the hide the ping how that I mentioned in the past there was like a overly attached girlfriend bad luck Brian and then like photogenic guy right I mean all these like old memes right and also some new memes like light shield guy and all these guys I think we kind of like a part of it right but to be honest we can't take the credit because honestly none of the platform right can take the credit because it's like it's like it's more like by the

people right and and as a platform we can only kind of like keep servicing good content keep servicing to make it easy for people to share to remove the friction >> yeah Ray last thing I have for you let's talk about the financialization of these memes and of this culture maybe you can just give us the evolution ution of how you know the internet has has created such a financialized culture around you know turning memes into markets and what that means for the work that you guys do. >> I think there are like multiple reason right behind that. Number one, uh I think meme is very viral, right? And people who love memes, uh they kind of like speak the same language, right? No matter where you are from. And as you

know, right, a lot of the stuff that people do in crypto, right, is always about community, right? If there is a lot of people behind certain content, right, behind certain meme that is almost like by definition, there's a community. And when there's a community, people in web think, hey, can I turn it into something like a uh something of value, right? Can we just support this like funny meme coin? Can we just support this some some funny like a meme phenomenon? And by doing that somehow people create all these like meme coins, right? That's why you can see like doge, you can see uh Pepe, you can see like uh Bong, right? All this like uh right? But at the same time you can also see that another reason is be behind is because of the legal concern right a lot of this

like traditional like uh tokens right if you uh tell people that there's like utility there's like a financial return value they kind of like become securities right they kind of become like collective investment scheme right I mean but memecoin is basically safe because you literally tell people that hey this is like for entertainment purpose only and and I think until the the law becomes like very clear right a lot of the people a lot of the creators they just launch memecoin because to them it's like an experiment if it works it works if it doesn't work okay this is just an experiment for them so for us as as memeland right what we try to do is hey uh we call the token memecoin uh we call the token the ticket is meme is the goal is hey can we kind of like bridge web two and web three because to a lot

of like web two creators web 3 is like a scam web is very scary right because the moment you launch a token people think that you're a scammer but at the same time web three talks about like mass adoption all day. But the thing is, hey, if you need mass adoption, you actually need to bring the technology to people. We cannot always think about, oh, how can we on board the millions, right? It's more about how we can bring the technology to millions of people, right? So, for us, uh, meme and I get meme strategy, right? That's what we try to do. Yeah. >> Beautiful. Ray Chan, CEO of NGAG, incredible career, incredible platform that you've built. Thank you for spending some time with with us today.

Appreciate your time and look forward to what you guys build next. and uh coming back on the the show and uh chatting about it, man. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you. Have a good day. >> All righty. >> See you next time. Thanks. >> Rest, man. >> Alrighty, guys. That's the stream for today. Fun stream. Thanks for Thanks for being with us, guys. If you got the base app invite codes, congratulations. There'll be more where that came from. Thanks for for being around. Thanks for being a part of the show. We will be back tomorrow and see you guys then. Thanks, guys. Peace.