The Rollup TV: Tuesday, August 12th

Transcript

[Music] Hey everybody. Heat. Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat.

[Music] Heat. Heat. Heat. N. [Music] Heat. Heat.

Heat. [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat.

Ah, [Applause] [Music] 4,500 ETH. Rob, you know what time it is. Time to raise some cash.

>> We thought this day would never come. I I remember I remember ETH was was about 1,200 and uh the bears were going into hibernation. >> Well, I put out this tweet that I was like, man, like uh if you think about it, six months ago, um the Ethereum community was literally in shambles infighting, going head-to-head uh just absolutely bashing on Twitter. Solana was gaining traction. Hyperlid had came out. You know, memes were hot. And then it's just crazy how six months have passed and it's like treasury companies, ETH as a store of value, like Tom Lee, NFTTS are back. Um, you know, number two token, it's going to be it's going to flip Bitcoin. It's just like like it's

just wild how quickly things go from drastic like end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum. Let's check our headline because maybe we'll get red on uh speaking on this a little bit later. But I I think you know it's not it's not all like uh you know uh sunshine and rainbows for the Ethereum community. Although that is pretty pretty true to the brand identity of ETH. >> It's 4500. >> It is 4500 >> around we're going to talk about >> the ETH L2 thesis a little bit later. Stripe launch launching their L1. Circle launching their L14 USDC.

>> I went viral for that because all the Ethereum people are super pissed at Circle not launching a L2. >> Of course they are. Of course they are. >> I saw like Carbon and Ryan from talk about is uh you know at least they're both using the EVM which is bullish for the EVM's network effects. I so you know despite despite these guys launching their own L1s and who there's trillions of dollars in stable coin payments happening on chain every year for Circle to then offload that from ETH and I don't know if that's exactly what's going to happen how much they're going to off offload from the Ethereum L1 but if they're going to be using a lot of

their own L1 for a lot of this activity I mean what is what is driving the uh outperformance of Ethereum here. Would you say >> uh Tom Lee buying absolutely trillions of dollars worth? Like like there's no answer. There's no other answer. It's just it's crazy. We have a sick stream today, guys. We're going to get into some of the market stuff in between guests, probably with with some of the guests as well. First up, we have Not So Fast, an OG speculative minor is what they would call him. If you're just tuning in to crypto the last couple years, you probably don't know um about spec mining. Um honestly, it's something that was came before proof of stake even happened. So, we're going to talk about

that with not so fast. Um then we have Miguel from Arkham. We have Maya from Starkware. Uh so, that'll be a more technical ZK one. Then we've got Miguel, which we're going to dive into some of the recent onchain analytics and things that he's seeing. And yeah, then I think we have Red from IP World and we'll cruise. Very good. Very good. We're going to work through We're going to work through some uh any kind of technical issues. We're going to just blow right through those. Pretty stoked for our lineup today. Not so fast. Coming up first here in a few minutes was uh part of the OG 2017 crew

which uh I I was kind of the class of uh of that crypto cycle as well. I think Andy was as well. And we were both following a lot of these guys pretty early on. Not so fast, this is news, I am Nomad, Kobe, Jibus, all part of this crew who kind of I mean things were so different back then. Part of why part of part of what I'd like to talk to not so fast about today is the difference between those those eras the era of 2016 2017 the era of what we are in now today. Um it wasn't all just spec mining back then. I mean there was altcoins right Andy and I came from two very different backgrounds even though we were both in crypto and crypto is still much smaller. uh mostly in a trading

background but uh taking two very different approaches and I remember not so fast talking about some coins that you know he found it was very much more more associated with the fundamentals than than even today. spec mining was uh almost the modern-day yield farming in the sense that you know all these tokens are uh are paying their emissions to their to their miners. And so the big thing back then obviously Bitcoin mining was kind of like the 2011 2013 craze. And then upwards of 2016, you had all of these other proofof work coins launch and that gave birth to the speculative mining uh era.

>> Yeah, man. And I mean, look, I'm uh I'm I'm pretty stoked. We'll get not so fast in shortly. Um should be great. And uh yeah, guys, I mean, I think outside of the uh the spec money, I'm just curious to understand his his perspective seeing the space develop as well in the way that it has and how how we're kind of thinking about uh the current happenings. Um man, so question for you before we get not so fast on. Do you think that they should have that that Stripe and Circle should have launched the their L1s as Ethereum L2s?

Should Stripe and Circle have launched their L1s as Ethereum L2s? Um, I think you got to look at what's to gain from the L1 versus the L2. L1 obviously you have a lot of value acrruel. You have a lot of uh me that they can draw upon. even a chain like Circle that is entirely uh stable coin payments. Um there's different arbitrage opportunities when it comes to stable coins and not so much me, but uh you know that's more so from trading. I think I think you know you're going to launch on on an L2 or launch your own L2. Uh if you're trying to um minimize your security budget and still tap into the Ethereum security budget for a company the size of Stripe or Circle,

they have the finances. They have the the uh the corporate treasury size in order to finance their own security budget. Yeah. So, I think >> these guys are more so focused on customizability. Uh these two these two uh L1s, even though they're both for payments, could end up looking very differently depending on their validator structure. Do they want to go with one security budget or the next? Uh >> yeah, look, it's going to be an interesting race. I mean, I I'm not sure exactly how it's going to play out. We got Not So Fast in the background. Let's get him up on stage into the stream. Uh, not so fast. Good to have you, man. Been a longtime follower. I think Rob and I discovered your account together in the

library in university uh in like late 2016, early 2017. So, good to have you, man. >> Oh, thank you for the welcome. It's uh so you've you've been uh subject to to a a pretty long arc of um kind of the the tail end of spec mining and uh into kind of whatever's going on now. So, thank thanks so much for the welcome. Uh, it's means a lot for me to be on here. Thank you. >> Absolutely. It means a lot to have you on, man. We were just kind of saying you're part of that that 2016, that crew, the I am Nomad, the uh Jibus, uh, Kobe, like you know, Kobe's kind of achieved like kind of this other worldly status. Up only really did really well.

Um, but I consider you guys all part of the same crew. Like that was those were the OG guys back then. And I I gotta say I learned I learned a lot uh from you guys. I didn't I didn't spec mine myself, but when it came to picking winners and losers and looking at the fundamentals, things back then were much more closely associated with the fundamentals. And I think a lot of those lessons still ring true today. And one of the things we wanted to we wanted to talk about today was kind of what's changed. Like what was it like back then? If you could kind of give us a portal into the 2016 world, I think you could do a better job than Andy and I could. like how would how would you describe 2016 and then you know we'll we'll contrast that with with uh the era

here and now. >> Yeah, sure. Well, the kind of like the tide of legitimacy was so much lower then. Like we'd come off the pump of Bitcoin to USD at the end of 2013 and it was, you know, oh, a Bitcoin's like $1,200. And then it looked like throughout 2015, Bitcoin would just be between $2 and $300 until it died forever. And uh Ethereum took a lot of people's Bitcoin and then just kind of had a uh pre-token trading on centralized exchanges, but unless you were really looped into the Ethereum ecosystem, it

was just another cash grab that people weren't really working on. And and and to most people's accounts, it was just something else to trade. Um, the survival of everything, Bitcoin and everything worse than it was not guaranteed. Most people didn't know or care. The price wasn't going up at all. Um, and so it was just a place it was much the same a degenerate place to play as the current kind of meme coin market maybe. like there are some parallels with that, but you had more um I guess believers in the fundamentals of

technology and you could experiment with stuff direct directly like you would have to download a wallet executable and try sending like shielded or anonymous payments yourself or like try to amass a certain number of coins and run a elevated status master node in a network and you know see see the fundamentals for yourself and convince yourself that they were any better than just kind of the narrative that they were that they were proposing. So much smaller still pretty degenerate.

um you had I think a little more pie in the sky belief, but some of those things that were pie in the sky have played out, I know, beyond my wildest dreams. Like institutions buying Bitcoin and Ethereum and even like Litecoin and other stuff is crazy to me. Like I don't believe it. And had you talked to someone back in 2016, as you guys would know, that would be unbelievable to to to imagine back then. Well, that was kind of like the meme back then, right? It was like the institutions are going to come and buy your bags. It it only took what, nine years for it to actually happen.

>> That is a long time. But like at the time it felt like never, you know, it felt like ah am I am I deliluding myself by like investing my time and effort and sometimes money into this stuff? >> Yeah, dude. So, what was some of your best plays back in the day? like like you found a coin through like like like how did you find like so today we have pump of fun we have Twitter we have uh like people going on you know block explorers and like trenching hard and trying to find you know you know through different telegram bots and different telegram apps you've got like all these ways of like sniping coins and like you know bundling things and like it's it's

absolutely exploded into a whole another world but back then like how would you find your next potential play. What were you like looking for? Um Yeah. And like you know what what were some of the best or biggest plays that that you had from spec mining and like talk us through it like like the process. >> Sure. Okay. So for specifically a spec mining play um discovery then was so much simpler and so much slower. Um, you would go on the Bitcoin talk forum. Uh, their kind of tertiary altcoin board. I think the number was like 159.0.

Uh, they it was they barely tolerated altcoins and altcoiners, but they wanted just a place for it all to happen. So, you would um have alerts set up for new coin announcements, and that would actually work. like you would get an email about a new coin announce uh announce or something and then uh you you could uh quickly verify like the source codes related to GitHub yourself and everything. So, uh, a really good play would have been, uh, right at the start of 2016, um, there was an announcement by, uh, dev called seven hacks with the e changed to threes and the a changed to a four and that was for DNET, short for

darknet. So it was an anon uh an anoncoin proof of work uh with a view to I guess going proof of stake later which you could do uh after some distribution. So um I mined the the heck out of it and even like bought on some centralized exchanges and back then the um everything was based in Satoshi's like there was no real stable coin market. So uh you were trying to grow your Bitcoin stack with all these plays. Anyways, I mined I mined a bunch of DNET and eventually it pivoted and rebranded itself into Pivix and um I'd been mining on my own computers and then because I'd set up a

wallet uh some of the stuff that I'd rented other people's computers and GPUs to mine uh I had just lazily and with poor OPSSAC sent to that wallet and uh those GPUs were on a computer or like next to computer I think connected to a hard drive on a computer that was in a storage unit in like uh this old like uh renovation company where I had like a plywood locker with like a threedigit combination lock on the door. And so in 2017 when Pivix was going from like nothing to like $60 a coin, I'm thinking about this computer. I'm like, "Oh my god, there's $2 million on this computer. I have to go get it." So, I'm

like strolling into this like crappy company where everybody's stealing like everybody else's equipment and I'm looking at this locker room. I'm like, "Please be there. Please be there. Please be there." And the computer was there. So, that was like one of the best plays. It was um by the skin of my teeth like rescued a giant fat bag from a hard drive uh dusty dusty machine and like uh the the drill was gone, the computer was there. >> Wow. Dude, actually I remember PivX from 2017. It was like one of the Bitrex coins that was like hot for no reason.

>> Yeah. Other than >> Yeah, it was um pretty decent. They had like, you know, the all the the good flavors of the time like a master node enabled. >> Oh my god, Rob. What a >> woman that came to our our Bitcoin club who was doing that master node program and Pivex was one of them. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was it's really crazy >> because you want to know how PivX died. Um it got fully civild and uh some dudes in like related to some company in Barry, Ontario, which is like a just a lakeside college town uh around here.

They got most of them and they were just farming the Bitrex chart. I still to this day don't know if they knew someone at Bitrex or whatever, but they got most of it. They lion shared all the rewards and then they just like um they they paid for or organized a Binance listing and then just dumped it to death over time and nobody could vote any differently. Um one of the funny things with like master node stuff is there's like the blockchain prints you a budget just like the bro block block reward every month and the master nodes get to vote on how that bud budget is allocated. It's like protodow stuff.

Yeah. >> So, >> you would have like these people saying, "Oh, I'm going to do like a marketing budget for Pivix in a marketing program and I'm going to like say uh it's worth like a thousand PIVEX and I hope they'll pay me." And so, they would like petition the DAO or the master nodes and uh get them to vote on it. And surprise surprise, you know, that it the the DAO would vote and they their their idea would not get voted for. It would get voted down. Then the guys in Barry would submit a similar proposal but for like a hundred,000 Pivex and it would pass. So like they would steal the ideas of submitters and then charge exorbitant amounts and steal all that super block for themselves and then like just dump

it on the on the Binance market. >> Wow, that's hilarious. >> Barry, Ontario, that's insane. >> That's where my parents are from. >> Yeah, >> so random. What the Maybe they know >> running master marketing campaigns. >> So random. >> Yeah. >> Not so fast. I I got one question based on on kind of that on that arc there. Back then, like you're saying, everything was was denominated in Satoshi's because th those were mostly the source of liquidity rather than USDC or or other stable coin pairs. Are you still denominating your strategies against Bitcoin to to for the for the motivation, the goal of uh increasing your Bitcoin stack because that that was

the main strategy back then and it's sort of fell out of favor as we got in more stable coin strate stable coin denominated pairs. How what is your what's your approach to this in terms of like your your general strategy? So, um, I still keep like a private offline spreadsheet that I can flip to denominate in >> to BTC or uh, dollars. And I think with the rise of stable coins, it's unlocked a whole lot of doors. It's dampened a lot of volatility because something moving against Bitcoin is kind of not as good as something moving against dollars. So, it really has put a cap on like low-end stuff and it is harder also

for new people to sort of force their own mindset to denominate in Bitcoin because the the strategy still should be that if you're not going to outperform Bitcoin with a trade or with like a long-term play that's venture-ike or something, you probably should just be buying Bitcoin or you should just be putting half of that investment into Bitcoin and half into the venture. So I try to maintain that and actually I've started I have I have this mental model where a coin gets sufficiently lindy

that you know it's never going to die. So, Ethereum kicked over. I think we can say that it kicked over kind of right now with this um shot at or near all-time highs. And I believe Solana is going to be next there. So, I have ways to flip my portfolio into base Ethereum and base Salana too to see what I'm kind of um what everything is uh profitable relative to. And I still do look at dollars, but if I if I make profits, it's got to go into um it's got to go into Bitcoin or one of those. And then I kind of rewe the mix depending on how how well I think each is doing

relative to the other. So that's the way the strategies change, but it still is. And I think um not enough people make it when they should. All about Bitcoin um as your denominator. If you're not outperforming Bitcoin, the kind of uh thing that's leading the Lindy charge, then you should really be re-examining. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think uh that lesson has been learned again this this last 18 months, right, with the Bitcoin bull market, Bitcoin dominance bull market. Um what what's funny is that everyone learns that typically at the time when Bitcoin dominance is reaching its peak which was like in in in the last few months or at least you know for the short term. It's just funny how

everyone's like so bold up on Bitcoin and like think alts are going to go to zero and die forever right before they kind of have their their part of the cycle. Um kind of looking into something of of more uh current times. I saw you saw my post about Stripe yesterday. Um, and today Circle came out and announced that they have uh are are launching ARC which is a L1 chain for payments, stable coins etc. What's your take on institutions launching blockchains for payments for uh, you know, bringing their customer base, you know, from Stripe, from Circle, uh, you know, PayPal, etc., and and launching these payments chains. Um

and I think the like the lens of this question is you come from a a position you know even just saying things like you know offline spreadsheet right things of of obssec of decentralization of kind of like this you know anti-fragility mindset you know how do how do you look at the the evolution of institutions coming into the space with regards to the core ethos the and the reasonings as to why why we're here. You know what? Um I like it because number go up, but that's that's sort of the water that we're swimming in. So that's that that doesn't need to be said. Um obviously we can attack the methodology and say, well,

it's no it's not much better than a sort of internal spreadsheet reconciled across a few different departments. And the only thing that it has going for it beyond that is compatibility with existing onchain stuff like um like bridges and everything. And I think the compatibility with stable coins too is kind of the only reason that you would set up your own corporate chain and like who are the validators going to be? Well, it's going to be people that you handpick. May all be internal to this one company. Uh, could they all collude and roll back the chain a bunch or stop new blocks from being produced? Well, yeah, they could. They're not going to.

They're on the same side. So, it's chain like infrastructure. It's uh but it but everybody is able to sort of collude on it. And then you can get into the weeds on um on how everything works under the hood. And honestly, I don't really even like I couldn't tell you what the difference is from ARC versus what Arbitum is doing. And I I almost don't really uh want to or need to know because the the impetus is to make it work like a normal blockchain like everybody else expects whether or not it is like a really centralized solution because it is honestly underpinned by the less

centralized stuff like Bitcoin which is underpinning Ethereum which is underpinning Solanda which is underpinning Cosmos and all that um the more decentralized stuff being directly tradable with the slightly less decentralized stuff all the way down the tail um helps keep the whole thing afloat. And to be honest, this is what outgrowth of the entire blockchain ecosystem looks like. >> Yeah. >> Into compatibility with slightly less decentralized stuff by chains launching their own L1. Well, an L1 is just an in-house compatibility module for other blockchain stuff and especially stable coins now and that's really all it is.

So, it's okay. It's not okay from a cipher punk angle, but the cippher punk angle stuff is handled and the rest is compatible and that's all that matters. >> Yeah. And so with the rise of institutions coming into the space with more favorable regulations being put forth in in you know the US legal framework these are things that one if you had talked about them being a reality back in 2016 people would you know think you were crazy. Now you know this is reality and typically that these would be considered top signals right if if we were looking at this but it feels like a new paradigm from your perspective. I'm curious are these top signals do where do you think we are in

the cycle if you will? If do you even still believe in the four-year cycle? If so, where are we? If not, you know, what what is your what is the right way to think about this? >> Yeah, that's a really good question. Like I I'm of the mindset that the four-year cycle probably still matters just because we've all been trained on it and everyone else has sort of been trained on it. Um the four-year cycle started with uh lock step to bitcoins having cycle but now the new number of bitcoins that are being produced are so much smaller than previous cycles that even though the value is up it's not up relative to the entire market capitalization of all crypto. So that matters less fundamentally but still

maybe narratively it does matter. And I have to be honest with you guys, my wildest dreams were surpassed so long ago that I can no longer imagine. Like my imagination's too small. Um I have no creativity left to predict how big things can get. >> Brother, we're bringing every asset on chain. Every single asset is coming on chain. >> Like that stuff I I need you to give me that idea because I don't have it. Like I can't wrap my head around stuff. everything that I could wrap my head around is already like oneshotted me, you know? So, uh, so if I had to choose what top things are going to look like, um,

>> it really has to be retail driven. And the reason why I don't think we're anywhere near >> is that retail doesn't care. >> Uh, retail is not involved, not interested. Everything that's going on right now is sort of the new crop of CT, which is CT plus a lot of web 2 uh salary type people and startups and ventures and VCs and all that just kind of in this mass watching all these other institutions on board because they're chasing yield and fiats doing fiat things like denominator going to zero type things and they're all sort

of agreeing ing on a new shelling point that okay, we have to be investing in stuff that is on this narrative of underpinned by bitcoin and uh >> denominator not going to zero and not being worthless. So I think once all those treasury companies are established and then it starts getting into normie like pension plans and everybody's super overinvested in all these treasury companies then at some point the overleverag that's happened to borrow to fund all this repurchasing is going to come to a head and I can't really predict how but there will be some crashes and there will be

some normies who bought the top using their apps because they're trading and their uh their AI agent is making those trades for them and then we'll have some kind of crash. But I believe and I would bet that the crash that happens we'll still end up flooring a new bottom higher than we are right now. Like this there's just >> it feels like the new flywheels the the new institutional flywheels are just getting going. And when you see something like you shake your head and you're like, how is this massive company and all this money doing what they're doing, like re resurrecting this old coin that I mined 12 years ago, for

example, to make a treasury company based on something that I know was just made by some idiot on the Bitcoin talk forums. Um, that's a top signal to me, for example, that I can wrap my head around. >> Yeah, I saw >> we're not seeing anything like that yet. There was a Bonk meme uh treasury company started that was like that was a that was pretty good. It was small but >> bonk's a big asset and I feel like that's not as top signingly as them really scraping the bottom of the barrel in the long tail market cap thing. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um is are you just sitting on like a pool of dead coins now like that have zero liquidity are just completely fried like >> Oh my god. like uh there are hard drives and USB drives of >> I'm not exaggerating when I exaggerating when I say probably 200 dead L1s of just chains that are never going to be alive again unless I kickstart them because we you know a few years ago we figured out how to like restart a proofof work chain that hasn't produced a block in every in a few years. Uh we figured out how to do that. Is there a point to it? Probably not. But maybe if like somebody really really wants to grift off an old coin

narrative that's uh gonna be a reality. Um yeah, there's hundreds of dead proofof work chain coins just lying there dormant. Uh there are many dead tokens, but that's a more popular thing. Lots of people have that story, too. Yeah, I am a graveyard. For a while, my narrative was, well, if I'm the buyer of last resort, then maybe thing these things can have another bite at the apple. And in nearly every case I was wrong and my my net worth suffered for it and my Bitcoin stack suffered for it. It was not the right move.

>> So So basically you would have to like take the risk as to like okay where where in the like how do I want to use my hardware and allocate my my basically my my my power. Uh, and that would be like the the kind of risk that you would take outside of obviously like um you know investing in or or you know trying to sell at the right time or whatever it is. But it was more about like you you could either be mining Bitcoin or mining other uh coins and and kind of like the trade-off would would be that uh you know the spec mining plays would pay off much bigger.

>> Yeah. Well, um the different proofof work algor algorithms meant that um like the SHA 256 would pretty much always be mining Bitcoin and um if you tried to make a SHA 256 altcoin um there was a trivial amount of Bitcoin hash that you could rent and reroute it and 51% attack the chain and it would kind of die in the cradle anyway. But there were a lot of other ones like the Litecoin script algorithm and then like a whole bunch of different GPU algorithms. So, what you would be trying to do is use this latent hash rate that wouldn't be redirected and redeployed to kill the speculative coin that you were mining. Um, rent a bunch of it for cheap, mine a bunch of the early blocks before the difficulty

shot up and then you'd have a lower cost basis than everyone else. And then you would just kind of hope and pray and meme and post that a centralized exchange would list it so that you could access liquidity. Like we are spoiled by tokens that are speculative having liquidity from minute one from purchase one. That was not the case. Like you had to wait weeks and sometimes you would mine something and it would just never get listed and it would die and it was over. >> There was no decentralized exchange to to add liquidity yourself. >> No. Exactly.

>> Well, NSF man, it's been a pleasure, man. We got to wrap as we're coming on on on a time. I want to be respectful of your time as well. Enjoy the ETH at 4500. Um, and uh hopefully hopefully some of these uh that are down in the dumps on the hard drive get a a treasury company for you. That would make you that'd make your year. >> Thank you so much, gentlemen. Eat to the moon. >> Thank you, brother. >> Cheers, man. >> Bye. >> Speak soon. Bye. >> All righty, guys. Um, cool. Well, Rob, that was fun.

>> That was so fun. It was a blast from the past. >> Yeah. I mean, these are things that >> these are memories that we have, but we don't share with too many people given the the current state of affairs. Next up, we got Maya from Starkware. A little bit of a different conversation than the last one. We're going to be talking a little bit more technical and uh maybe even some ZK. Maya, welcome up. Welcome to the show. >> Hey, Maya. Um yeah, so to kind of preface this conversation, we uh are gonna be talking with Maya about um Starkware Provert, the state of ZK, some of some of the general developments that uh she's

seeing on her end. But before that, Maya, what's your story? How did you get how did you get here? Um how did you become a PM at Starkware uh and get involved in this crazy crazy world that we call blockchain, crypto, web 3? Um okay so it's kind of a long story so um I was doing my undergrad in math which I love and that was around uh 2012 and that's kind of when I started to hear about blockchains as well. So I was kind of like uh reading a lot but not doing a lot about it. And then um I continued with my ma

math journey and uh I did a a master as well and then I moved to my PhD and I thought that I wanted to find a subject that's kind of more both practical and uses the all the skills that I learned along the way and is also very interesting and you know kind of has a lot of like room for uh innovation. Uh so that's how I ended up with blockchains. Um yeah, and it was just uh around the time that Ethereum was founded and like nothing existed and it was kind of the wild west and so it was super interesting.

>> Very interesting. And so when you were I'm I'm curious more about specifically what kind of math you studied because the blockchain industry has far-reaching applications of some of the math that tends to be very theoretical but is put into into practice when it comes to blockchain both on the cryptography side as well as the economic side. What is it that you know where did you fall on that spectrum and and you know when you saw Ethereum and some of these other practical applications what what stuck out to you? So I started out with in pure math and uh I was especially interested in cominatorics and probabil probability theory and graph theory. And so when I was just getting into blockchains a lot

of what people were talking about was actually the protocol level stuff uh security decentralization livveness um and that that's a lot of graph theory and probability theory. So I found that fascinating and there were like the Bitcoin paper had come out but it wasn't really a a conventional academic paper so and it didn't rely on a lot of the literature that was already existing. So it was super innovative and like uh it broke a lot of boundaries and got people interested but it also as everyone knows Bitcoin has its limitations in terms of computation and uh uh TPS and that's by design really

because you want to make it secure. uh so I was really interested in blockchains uh from the scale perspective like how do you get a protocol that's robust it's decentralized it's secure and it works uh and there's a lot of graph and probability theory there and once I started on that journey I also got super interested in ZK especially in privacy stuff and I did some work on like adding privacy to the to to the lightning network and I had a paper about that and uh uh just like all around this exploring like security of DeFi protocols and governance pro protocols.

So all around just dove right in during my PhD um and then just kept on with that. Yeah. >> C's got a lot of math, too. If you guys want to hop into the ZK math, I'm just going to step outside and I'll return after. But what I'd like to understand from your perspective, Maya, is the lay us out the proving race. So, you know, we are in the in the era of ZK where there's a race to get adoption.

There's a race to uh you know, increase uh speeds, decrease costs. Talk to us about what the proving race means to Starkware, to you personally. What does this mean? Where are we at? Give us the foundation for the the ZK proving race as it stands 2025 August 12th. >> So, first of all, I think when people say the race for ZK, they now mainly talk about ETH proofs and proving Ethereum in in real time. Um me personally and also Starkware we're very excited that there is a race for proving because prior to that there like people are like h proofs and uh and like

so the field is exploding and it's a good thing that there's competition and it's a good thing that there's a like a driving force for this competition which gets people to work on innovation and that's good for the ecosystem and you do see a lot of innovation coming out. Um, at Starkware, we're not really focused on proving Ethereum. We're not EVM compatible. Uh, so we're kind of doing our own thing. We are a layer two on top of Ethereum. So, we do have to be composable in some senses, but u so we're really not a big part of the ETH proofs race. The Kako team is representing us there. Um, they're doing an amazing job. Um, we have our new provers too. Um, so it's S2 for

Starkware or Starknet 2 as opposed to the first one which was Stone Stark one. Um, so that's the race as I see it. I think it's super super exciting that we have companies now proving Rust um, which was like completely out of the question a couple of years ago and people are really doing exciting stuff. Um and I am really excited for proofs to proving technology to become really um performant enough to be used in mobile devices and consumer laptops. I think consumer laptops were there like with our technology we can already be there

now for for phones. It's getting there and we'd love to be a part of that. Um, it just opens up a ton of new use cases um that were previously not possible that would either require a user to prove something on their phone or for um like a third party between the user and the blockchain to prove something offchain for private trading and stuff like that. I think it's super super exciting. So, I'm happy there's a race. Um yeah.

>> Yeah, absolutely. There's been pretty exciting launches of uh on on Starkware on Starknet extended I think purpose protocol launched pretty recently. Um and so when you're when you're looking at the >> they launched today shout out to extended. >> There we go. Shout out to extended launched today. Go check it out. And so when when you're looking at some of these financial products, some of these applications and you're you're looking at the capacity for ZK, I'm actually curious about what you said about consumer hardware when it comes to when it comes to ZK. How would having provers running some of these computations locally on our laptops, on our phones, how would that change the current

dynamic of either the transaction flow, kind of the proof supply chain, the general user experience? H how would local uh ZK proving and verifying kind of change the way we're looking at this and thinking about this? >> So I think like the classic example would be what what happened when tornado cache was introduced. So, tornado cache actually requires that you perform some proving action locally or on your browser. And it's a super super lightweight proof, right? It's a dedicated circuit. It's super lightweight. The verifier is also super lightweight, but it already like provides a a whole new world of possibilities of what you can do with blockchains, right? because it enables

you to take also Zcash here, but it enables you to to take u uh like a public blockchain and add a private component to it and and there you go. And all it required is for you to be able to compute the ZK proof locally of a very simple statement. Um so when you think about what you can really do with a general purpose prover that can create proofs locally, the the sky's is the limit. Like I I like the KYC example which is uh kind of now you want to sign up for uh for for like an exchange I don't know pick your favorite one and you have to so you log in and you maybe you input your Google account or

whatever and then the next thing you have to do is you have to send a photo of your passport and take a photo of like a scan of your face and then you send all of this data in the clear to to a third party that you do not know. It's not the exchange. It's some third party. Maybe they get hacked. Maybe they use your data. Like this is very sensitive information that you're just sending out every time you sign up for a service. Um so what you can do with uh client side proving or local proving and this is like a very well-known example. Disney passport are doing this. uh then you can take a f you can take a photo of your

passport and you can prove like a test is the the right word that you took this photo with your uh own phone camera. So this is easy and then you scan your face. This is also easy for to attest that this happened locally on your device. So here you don't need ZK yet. But then you need to match these two and you need to prove that you ran a specific uh face recognition algorithm to match these two images and you need to run some uh uristic to make sure that your passport is indeed a valid passport issued by some country and obviously this is not performed performed manually by default on the third parties end. So

you can run it locally and you can prove it locally and then you can just send the ZK proof and then you when you on board to an exchange now you don't have to say I'm Maya and I'm from here and this is my ID number and this is all of my personal information and my face scan and like there you go. I can just say I am a person in a country with a proof that I own a valid passport. I can even prove maybe I don't have a criminal record, whatever you want. And I on board and then I on board privately and nobody knows who I am. I can do whatever I want because I've been KYC as a as an entire like service. That

like don't trust verify idea is huge. But this is more like this is more like rather than even not trusting and verifying, how about like don't share but have the you know ability to uh have access to these services and have have this verification happen without needing to share. And again this is like the best explanation for ZK at large to people uh you know who are somewhat familiar trying to learn uh trying to be kind of uh familiar. I think we should get a bit more into uh some some of the actual uh kind of technical details around uh Starkware's prover stwo.

Um I'd like to understand the the the current state of this prover what the main uh use cases are that you guys are seeing um outside of of of kind of this previous example. you know, how you know, what's the what's the proof cost uh to, you know, maybe generate a proof for a a uh single uh L2 block or um you know, I you know, uh we're close with the balance team. They're trying to prove the entire Ethereum consensus. Um you just talk to us a bit about some of these technical uh kind of uh concepts around SWOO and how you're seeing that uh kind of go to the market play out and some of the specs there.

Yeah. So, so our prover so it's pronounced ste. Yeah. Uh it's um so it's a new gen prover in the sense that it operates over a small field over the merren 31 field. Um and it really uses very nice math uh to make things work. So this is a great field to work over in terms of fast arithmetics. But uh it was unclear until uh Star Wars development how you could actually perform uh start fry type of algorithm there that you need to prove things and um it was discovered um that you can actually use a very special

you can use a non-trivial subgroup the the circle subgroup in this field and this enables you to have really everything you need to have pro an efficient prover. So this is kind of a very superior field to work over for proving. Um what does this mean in practice? basically means that you can have far more efficient proving than in previous generation provers and uh currently state-of-the-art uh performance when compared even to other new gen provers such as hyper cube and uh risk zero and all of these uh

competitors we see that it outperforms in uh like very generic proving tasks e using our provable language Cairo even when comparing to competitors builtins or pre-ompiles. So even when you're competing with a dedicated circuit and you use a general purpose purpose language it seems that outperforms competitors. Um so that's nice and the language I mentioned is Cairo which are is our dedicated provable language. It's a general purpose language curing complete and the thing is that stew is not really optimized. Cairo and stew are basically

not very compatible. So the reason Cairo was created for our previous proofer which is called stone and they work fine together. Um but now uh Starkmet is already written in Cairo and smart contracts are written in Cairo. So Sue has to prove Cairo to prove Starkmet. Um so we built um an entire library of errors for proving Cairo with Steu. But actually this kind of holds back holds to Stew back from achieving maximal performance. So there's an ongoing project by the Kakaro team which we're supporting which is called Kairom M which is basically a brand new new language and it's optimized for this

small field. Um, and so it's basically it's a new VM, it's a new uh it's new errors, new everything and it just uh flies in terms of proving time. And I think the last time I checked, they were able to prove a Fibonacci 100,000 on an iPhone in two seconds, which is kind of crazy. Uh, and not using a dedicated pre-ompile. It was Cairo M code. So that's kind of really impressive. So that's kind of the things that we can expect from STU if people or if we or others decide to optimize it for client side proving. Um and it's of course open

source and anyone can give it a go. Um so yeah that's where stew is and I really hope that um people adopt it and use it widely for for client side applications and like the sky's is the limit for what you can do with zk today. So >> yep I've got I've got a few questions but I think we almost lost Andy talking about finite field arithmetic and subgroups. So kind of bringing it back to like the applications here, right? We have >> there's a lot of big words.

>> We have uh the optimizations that you're talking about and you mentioned that it it is very performant on general tasks. Um you could increase the performance even more if you were to optimize it. >> Yeah. >> Um and obviously we want to see you know applications adopt uh adopt this ZK program. Are there any applications in particular? Maybe it's the perpetual exchanges like you know that we saw uh extended launch today. Maybe it's other types of applications. What what would you say are types of applications? If you were to even give a shout out right to a couple projects uh that are fit for this particular ZK program, what what projects would those be?

>> So I think PPS are a good example. Um so as you all know like everything's public when you use DeFi right so you have some trading strategy and you have to expose it when you trade but if you uh don't want to expose it then you can use proving right so you can have the an operator over platform run code offchain a users submit their their uh bids the operator exec cutes them in a provable language then computes a proof then only submits the proof on chain so the next state is proven but the strategy of the

trader is proprietary right so it's hidden um so that's like a huge uh defy application I think um I also think there's really nice application for proving that have nothing to do with blockchains as well right so for internet security or KYC or all all of these things and you can have things that combine um these two like you can have now um anonymized onchain registries that you can use ZK proof to prove that you are part of. So you can prove that you are a resident of a state. You can have this registry on chain and you can have it completely encrypted but you prove that

you're part of it and then you you don't need anything else right um using ZK because you have some secret issued by the state that only issues these secrets to a person that lives on state and is registered like a lot of applications like this I think are super super exciting like and you can think about like anti-paming or anti-ishing tools that utilize ZK and the blockchain somehow. So you can have a a company register it each address in its domain on a public blockchain account and then you can verify ZK mail proof type of

situation in your browser with a Chrome extension that queries this registry to see if the person that sent you the mail is actually reg registered to a domain and that the signature matches. And so the there's like a really a lot of like a broad spectrum of things that you can do. >> Um I I got to ask when it comes to the actual uh like state of the of the performance increases, what are you seeing right now over the last like six months? Um and what do you expect for uh Stu and other kind of uh ZK technologies in general? Really what I'm trying to get to is like what we've heard for so long is that it's it's so close, right?

It's just closer than than ever to being total rivaling the speeds of um you know either optimistically uh proven systems like fraud proofs or just general uh you know blockchain consensus environments. you know when do we get to the point where it's no longer you know close it's here and you know how far have we came in the last six months where do you expect in in the next six when do we reach that point >> so I think like there's a few questions hiding here so obviously proving will always be slower than execution it's just bounded like uh from below by execution because you have to execute to

prove um but I don't think that's a right question necessarily because um the paradigm of a provable blockchain would be that one person proves and proves and then everyone else just verifies a proof which is very fast to do. So uh it's not that everybody now needs to reexecute everything. So you drop a lot of execution and instead you do more on the prover side but this is one entity doing the proving. So I think in that ter like in those terms we're already there like startnet has the capacity to do I think I know of 100 TPS but like I think I would guess even at

least 10x with two now. Um and so I I don't think that's a blocker anymore. I think it exists now and you can just do it now. Um, in terms of other things, I do not think the technology is the blocker. I I think adoption is the blocker. Like when once you have people actually starting to build ZK applications, the technology is there, right? So you see teams like ZK Passport um they're doing things that are are are just crazy. like uh you wouldn't have like I I don't think that at the moment that they started building they thought they the tech was there already.

>> Yeah. >> Right. So but like it just matured as they were bu building. So I think if anyone has an idea for a proper ZK application then they should just start working on it and reach out either to us or to any other team working on a dedicated like a general purpose prover and just like the tech will match you when you need it for most things. So maybe maybe not like provable LLM training yet, but most applications. Yeah, >> I know it's late for you. Maya uh one last thing, there's a there there's been quite a push by a lot of these uh different kind of prover networks and uh

you know general purpose ZKVMs to make every L2 a ZK rollup or ZKL2. Uh is is that something that you firmly uh believe in from a core technology perspective? And then is is that something that you believe is actually a real uh uh possibility, you know, by the end of like the next year or two >> to make a every layer 2 provable layer 2? Yeah, I don't I don't think there's a blocker to it. I don't think like in terms of TPS and I I don't think there's any blockers for it. I think also some some provers have like some companies even have like technology to automate automate making EVM compatible uh

roll-ups provable. Um I don't know how performant their provers would be but like just judging by what happens on starknet then there's no reason to believe this can't happen. Proving rust is harder than proving kairo kairo's dedicated dedicated ck language. So it's optimized for proving. So proving solidity, proving rust inherently is slower, but it shouldn't be prohibitively slow in my opinion. It just it might be just worth the convenience to some people.

>> Yeah. To to take the overhead in proving time. >> Makes sense. Maya, thanks so much for coming on. really appreciate the work that you're doing on ZK and pushing uh the privacy space forward uh as well as on Starknet and uh yeah, keep up the great work. Thanks for coming on >> and get some sleep. It's uh 8 a.m. here. I think it's very late there. So, >> it's it's 9:30 here. Yeah, >> we're on opposite sides of the world, but uh we we make it happen. This is crypto. >> Yeah, thank you for having me. Nice to meet you. >> Thanks, Maya.

Rob, let's have a look at uh some of of the mania that is happening on in the market. Um >> do we have Mania? >> I think we do. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna pull up this tweet actually as we're waiting for Miguel. I think up next we have Miguel coming up. Um we're gonna wait till he jumps in, but there's a a uh I want to pull up the circle blockchain tweet uh and just talk about that a bit more. um because I think we didn't get enough time to really talk about it.

So, let me pull this up um and and go over it. >> Let's see it. >> Although, I think Miguel's in the back, so we're getting pretty close here. Um but let's see if we can get him up uh with with his tweet up first. All right. So, uh, tweet reads, and I've sent it to producer in the back, so maybe we we can get that pulled up if we can. Uh, if not, no, no worries. I I'll just go ahead and read it. Uh, introducing ARC, a a open layer 1 blockchain. ARC is designed to provide an enterprisegrade foundation for stablecoin payments, FX, and capital markets applications. the EVM compatible network which I think is

the key that a lot of the Ethereum people were excited about uh features USDC as its native gas of course along with an integrated stable coin FX engine subsecond settlement finality and opt-in privacy controls >> arc will be fully integrated across circles platform and services which will pause available I just on on the EVM >> expected to launch in fall >> on the EVM note I You know, this would have been a good question for Maya because how excited should we be about the EVM compatibility? I think depends on, you know, what what we heard from Justin Drake and Vitalic about this snarkification of ETH. The the push seems to be look, every L2 is going to

be a ZK rollup, but ETH L1 itself is actually going to be ZK maintained, meaning that the validators won't re-execute all of those L1 transactions. there's going to be a proof that's generated and all of those validators on the ETH L1 are going to verify that. And so I could see a world where if we're like ZK proving the EVM that could acrue value to ETH, but that's just a theory. I would need to ask a more, you know, someone from the EF. >> I just think it's like the network. No, it's it's just like a network effects thing. I think like Bass Carbon put a a a quote tweet on my striped uh tweet um and was like just basically being bullish on the EVM. I just don't think that that really actually makes any

difference in the immediate term. Um but it it has a longer term uh kind of uh it has a longer term impact on on Ethereum's network effects and price. But it's just so obvious like the some of these biggest payment companies. There's actually one thing that I think is is relevant here outside of the EVM, but it's so obvious that these institutions are choosing Ethereum, which is that uh Circle mentioned that there was an opt-in privacy part. I just don't see I I don't see stable coinbased chains doing well unless they have privacy embedded because like there's just no reason why anybody's going to want to use something that is fully open for

everybody to see when it comes to payments. Um because it's just like not how the world works. Um and so I think ARC including that in their little excerpt that I read out uh was particularly important. And you know, I I see that as being like a bigger uh like a bigger part of this news rather than like the EVM stuff. I think the EVM stuff is great for Ethereum, bullish, awesome, longer term network effects. Everyone's going to want to build on Ethereum developers, etc. But yeah, I mean, we got to be thinking about privacy more and more and more. And I think privacy as a as an idea is going to make a roaring comeback as a result of the administration being more kind of pro crypto and also just as a result of

us kind of getting slapped in the face with the reality check like yo what's going on like we need privacy you know we can't just act like this isn't important when if you look around all the other forms of payment in the world are privacy driven so >> so Andy our our fund invested in plasma the USDT are calling for their demise as a result of these two announcements, >> which is funny. >> Stripe is obviously different and coming at the the industry from a different angle than uh ARC and Plasma, right?

Because Arc and Plasma kind of have their uh their stable coin backer. Stripe doesn't. They're they obviously have a ton of network effects, a ton of distribution in the web two world. >> I think this sets up nicely for Stripe to launch a stable coin. um that kind of seems inevitable especially with the regulation. >> I agree. >> Um and so what you're saying about stable coin privacy I think makes a lot of sense. Seems like it would be the standard not just blanket privacy but an optin similar to the what uh ARC uh said in their announcement today. This is also uh something that the administration and the regulatory agencies are uh are describing. Hester Pierce made a speech at SBC um talking

about the mix between stable coins and privacy and how we have these great public blockchains. Yeah, they're fantastic for compatibility, composability but >> right, they you know, you sacrifice some of those privacy elements and vice versa. This could be why we were talking about this at the beginning of the show a little bit, why these payment companies are launching L1s and not composable Ethereum L2s. Yeah, I I don't know why. I mean, you got to wonder what Robin Hood thought versus what Stripe thought or what Robin Hood thought versus what Circle thought.

>> Well, I think composability makes a big impact. Privacy maybe not so much as so. Uh trading because all of these prices are relative on on you know other assets. They're all denominated in pairs. >> Yeah. the trading element and and uh you know whether it's equities or crypto you know that makes a lot more of a difference and so Robin Hood trying to become more composable with the rest of the industry for deeper liquidity uh for uh better price discovery better prices better margins all of that I think necessitates more composability than a payments chain where it's essentially there's no real trading but I can see some some opportunities for stable coin

arbitrage but if It's all just USDC and it's all just payments and accounts with the USDC balance. You don't have that need for composability for trading. >> You know what's funny is these payments chains actually they require less like chaintochain composability but far more like traditional finance supply chain and centralized crypto exchange composability >> like on Yeah. onramps offramps. Like think about when you send money to like Binance from you know a hardware wallet and then vice versa. You're like sending it on Ethereum or on Tron for USDT or you're sending it on like arbitrum for USB USDC. you know what the what arc

what uh tempo which is stripes chain what plasma what stable these all these chains they're going to need to get embedded into all the centralized exchanges and also have like embeddedness into like JP Morgan Morgan Stan um you know these types of like uh actual traditional finance uh companies and like those would be the two like composability uh moes if if one or two or three can like get all of them while the others can't uh versus like oh Does ARC really need to be that composable with like arbitrum or like others? I mean, I'm sure there'll be bridges and all these things, but I I think that's how I'd be thinking about it with regards to these L1s for payments and for stables is more around

like how do I get embedded into like like Stripe has such an advantage because their payment processor is literally everywhere. >> So, it just boom like it just drops in everywhere. Like that's the type of of composability that I think plasma and stable are going to struggle with compared to Stripe, Circle, and the rest. And so, you know, I see I don't see like the the crosschain or like, you know, them connecting to all these other chains as that important as much as the others. So, um, guys, we have, uh, Miguel in the back. The Arkham Twitter is rocking a Pudgy Penguin. Um, it's a vibe. They're they are posting a ton of ton of different charts. We're going to rip through some of these um and uh see what's going on with Miguel. We'll get

him up now. Miguel, welcome to the show. Good to have you, man. >> Yes, sir. We've we've got you as the state of onchain intel at Arkham. Um I got to ask, are you do you have some investigative forensics background? Are you just a very curious person? you know, why, you know, how did you come to the idea of like, look, I want to start this kind of this company where we just open up this what what they call actually the dark forest in Ethereum land to everybody. Um, kind of give us some of your background. What inspired you to start Arkham and then we're just going to jump right into it.

>> Yeah, absolutely. Um, so no, I don't come from a from a forensics uh background though given everything that we've built so far, you know, now now I kind of do. Um, you know, the the reality is I kind of when I was in the crypto space previously working on a stablecoin project. Um, you know, I faced a lot of the same issues that uh people have today uh in terms of what they want to see out of the blockchain. Um, so that means actually wanting to know uh for example what the major players in crypto are doing. That means market makers, institutional funds, uh, hedge funds, whales, etc. um you want to see what they're doing and you want to you want to know what's actually going on, who's buying, who's dumping. Um

these are sort of like the the the forever questions of the crypto space. The same questions that people were asking 10 years ago, they asked today. They want to know what's going on on exchanges. Is my money there? Is it not? Uh are people buying my coin? Are they not? Um and are things going to go up or down? These are kind of like fundamental never-ending questions of crypto. And so the question before was how do you do that? How do you actually know uh what's going on? And for me, the the key uh was looking at the onchain information. Obviously, many people can go on an exchange, try to look at the order book, understand what's going on. They can look at the news, they can look at social media. Um, but really the footprint of uh the patterns of movement of of crypto are all recorded on on the

blockchain and will be forever. And all of the information about what has ever happened on chain uh is recorded forever. uh which means that we are able to take it, analyze it and then produce very useful information and insights for the world to be able to use and so that's what we decided to do and that was born out of my own need uh for the services that we ended up creating ourselves. >> Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I mean uh all of us I mean if you've been around in 2017ish even into like like the 2020 era it was it was it was very much like block explorer based right I mean there there was some kind of these like data companies but it was very very very like

you're you know you're going to be looking through hashes and clicking different buttons and tracking things and now we've got a whole I think like the big the big change was like this visual mapping like rather than like numbers and letters and amounts like putting these things into like visual like like mappings I think completely changed the way and like the ability for people to actually like understand how actually how blockchains work and then also kind of like what's what's happening under the hood. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I I actually you know to put it into perspective I think that we have gone through several different iterations of data analytics in the crypto space. I think in the very beginning um there was none right so you had to actually go onchain run your own

infrastructure or node uh and then read the raw information that was coming off of each block in order to understand what was going on um as you accurately pointed out you know let's call that kind of a vzero I think v1 was then kind of like the you know blockchain.com for bitcoin uh etherscan of course uh for for ethereum and all of the ether scan derivatives for the different types of uh uh networks and layer ones that that uh exist that are sort of EVM based um or or even not in some cases like in in soul scan um and uh and that was kind of v1 where you know without needing to run your own node you can just look at a website um and you have the ability to

look at what's on chain but without any labels so you're just looking at the raw information of what address sent to which other address and how much did they send denominated in the cryptocurrency itself? Later on, obviously, they then started to add pricing. So then you can see, okay, this guy sent 10,000 bucks, but you have no idea who any of the people are. >> Yeah. I think we then kind of pioneered the new era of data analytics for blockchain in particular uh where then we introduced this idea of being able to search for activity by name of an individual or an institution or an exchange without necessarily needing the address. To use something like an ether

scan, you would need to have the contract address. you need to have, you know, the the zerox or the transaction hash, something to, you know, some sort of grain to start with in order to get what you're looking for. Uh, with Arkham, I can just start with a name uh or with a token uh and slowly unravel all of the information that I need and that I'm looking for uh uh without even needing a head start or or or any kind of hunch or inkling uh of what's going on, let alone a a transaction hash or or an address. So we actually enable people to be able to go both ways. You can go address to name in order to identify what's going on or you can start with the name and then look at all the addresses. Um and so I think we kind of

uh uh made it significantly more user friendly, significantly more accessible um and way more free uh for people to be able to actually understand what's going on on chain without necessarily needing to be ultra sophisticated or already know what they're looking for. Well, that's me, uh, Left Curve tapping in, uh, who is grateful for products like Arkham. Nice hat, by the way. That's a sick hat. >> Why don't we talk about what's actually happening on chain then? I mean, like, like, what else would we do here? These whales just bought over $200 million of ETH. One tweet from Arkham. Next tweet.

This guy bought nine figures of ETH yesterday. Okay. um former ETH billionaire seven siblings is selling ETH. So it seems like a lot of the activity right now on chain in terms of size and scale is on Ethereum. Um you know you guys have been tracking a lot of these ETF flows. I think a lot of these DAT flows um you know maybe let's start there. What what has been the process like for for tracking these these uh treasury companies? You know how how are you seeing those play out? you know, is there any like is there any that are more concentrated than others in terms of like wallets or is there anything that you've seen that is a bit more maybe uh like sophisticated than than others? Kind of walk us through

some of the treasury company happenings that you guys are following specifically with with ETH and some and some of these others. Um and just kind of what you're seeing from the deep, you know, lens of being on on chain. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I think there's a bunch of stuff going on on chain right now. Uh, obviously we had that tweet about Vitalic becoming a billionaire again, which people thought was pretty funny. >> Go viral. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, >> aside from this, you're right that there's a lot of activity now going on in the treasury space. Um, obviously we started out, you know, kind of focusing on Bitcoin because those are the ones that were most kind of popular uh to begin with, but now the Ethereum ones are the ones that are getting the most

traction. Um, and to be honest, I think that a lot of the information um that we use in order to to track those um is actually coming from um you know, just being able to look on chain at who the people who are making the largest transactions are in general sort of period because um in a period of one week or in the time span of you know a couple of days it is really unlikely that there would be you know so so much movement of Ethereum uh you know on on chain. It is really unlikely that an individual out of nowhere um will just go and purchase you know 500 million 600 million 900 million of a particular

cryptocurrency um that quickly. It's just it's super unlikely. Um, and so I think in general, um, what we're looking for, uh, is very abnormal movements of large amounts of, uh, cryptocurrency on chain, uh, in a pattern that actually matches, um, these kind of treasury company or reserve movements. And these are patterns of accumulation um that are different from the types of movements that you would see from a market maker for example uh or from a trading firm or even from an individual whale uh who's trying to accumulate uh uh cryptocurrency. They're they're very different. Um and so once you start to

detect and look at all of these different patterns, you start to become aware of, okay, this wallet looks like it belongs to an exchange. This wallet looks like it belongs to a market maker. this wallet looks like it belongs to some other kind of trading firm and ah whenever these types of wallets do XYZ um that actually means that it's a treasury company. Um and so this is something that we've also kind of learned uh and over time begin to track and we see more and more of them coming online and then based on their public reporting or information that exists about them online uh we are then able to say oh this is you know ex treasury company because they have you know ABC filings or they've said this particular type of information online which matches

the behavior which we're seeing on chain. Um so that's generally the way uh in which we kind of go about the uh identification generally of the type of wallet that we're looking at and the kind of onchain activity that we're looking at and then how we specifically then say okay this is that type of treasury company or this is this particular one. There is a I I remember back I think it was chain analysis back in 2020 was sort of building out this directory like the yellow pages of crypto addresses and and and >> and they were using it and kind of selling that data when you guys are building this out you're kind of open sourcing it for the for the culture right and so >> yes >> I'm curious like open sourcing that that

subscription cost but yeah you know for the culture for the culture of Miguel's business Right. >> Well, well, actually for most people the the platform is just free. You can just go on and use Arkham as much as you want without needing to without needing to pay anything. So, a lot of it is has been kind of, you know, we'll monetize it kind of downstream of all of the positive, you know, net benefits that come from, you know, producing a product like Arkham and giving it up to the world. >> This is kind of what I was getting at, though, is like the monetization strategy here. you guys are kind of price, you know, subscription gating kind of like the more the more valuable insights, if you will, or downstream of of the free version. Are you guys also >> uh like putting your own money at stake

and like putting your money where your mouth is when it comes to these to this intelligence and kind of like taking some trades back and forth based on some of the the insights that you gain? >> Well, to be honest, in that sense, no. We don't actually trade ourselves as a company or me as an individual. I'm not I'm not really a a crypto trader. more kind of, you know, focused on actually providing the infrastructure and then you can use our data for for whatever you want, which is a whole bunch of different reasons. Some people use it for trading, some people use it for compliance. Some people use it for investigations and research and due diligence and, you know, there's a whole kind of menu of reasons why somebody would want to use the Arkham Intelligence platform. Um, that being said, uh, we are still putting our money

where our mouth is where, you know, even if we're not necessarily trading based off of our information, it costs us millions of dollars a year to run a platform like Arkham, right? We need to hire engineers. We spend money on compute. Uh, we spend money on data storage. Um there's a number of different things um that mean that you know we have expenses related to every single chain um that we decide to integrate and all of the work that actually goes into you know labeling all of these different types of uh of wallets. It's not free. And so in that sense the business um is investing money into making sure that the information is accurate because if the information is not accurate or we suck as a product people will stop using it and so we

don't get any value back. Whereas now we're getting value in the form of community in in in the form of brand um and in a bunch of these other kinds of you know really interesting ways uh where you know now we've become one of the major players uh in crypto with respect to kind of being a s source of truth um that people trust and go to in the industry to figure out what's going on. Um and again downstream of that uh now that we have kind of uh uh uh grown as a company uh we you know we we've just become you know one of the main places that people go for for information and so obviously that has a bunch of positive benefits.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean and I imagine that that the uh that the customer base has varied right from individuals to organizations. I actually had an old college friend uh hit me up and say, this was like two days ago. He texted me. He's like, "Yo, what do you think about Arkham?" >> And I was like, "Oh, I I don't have a sub, but but I know it's, you know, solid and it's good." He's like, "Oh, well, my company is subscribed to it." I was like, "That's cool." >> So, like I imagine that you guys have like a varying customer base, right? And then I also imagine that and and I've seen that you guys have taken like uh AI, right? and like integrated AI into the the product as well uh for you know a variety of use cases as well as launch per kind of like like a trading platform

which I imagine the thought was like provide information give people a idea allow them to trade on it same platform um similar thought um what is what is uh next for for Arkham what what are the next features that people want what is the next way that you want to launch uh you know a different vertical of business what can you share with us uh for you know what's coming down the pipe. >> Absolutely. So I think in terms of kind of immediate changes and things that we're intending to add and do um we are currently building out a mobile app uh which will be very helpful for a bunch of people in crypto who obviously don't necessarily use or even own computers right there are a number of people um

especially in Southeast Asia who you know they don't necessarily have a you know high-powered laptop or desktop where they're doing this research and trading it's all just happening on their phone um and so imminently uh we intend to launch a a mobile app which I think uh will be very helpful for people and people have been asking for that for a very long time. Um we're intending to um additionally uh launch a dex um so we will be adding more uh kind of decentralized trading capabilities um to the Arkham platform generally um which will allow people to obviously have significantly more access to uh tokens uh without you know uh uh necessarily going through a kind of centralized

process right they can just access uh whatever exists on the blockchain and it's more in keeping with the nature of um you know the crypto ecosystem that people will have uh significantly more freedom with respect to what assets they decide not just to research um but also to to trade swap or you know whatever it is they they want to do with them. Um so that's also super promising and uh coming down the pipeline. Additionally, we're obviously still continuing to work on new AI products. Uh we launched our AI insights feature a couple of weeks back um which has been a hit and people really like uh and this is just again a way for people who you know being even a bit lost or not necessarily knowing what they're looking for uh being able to come in and actually get information

about what's going on uh on chain directly from the platform um based on signals of things that are either abnormal or really interesting or very large um in a way that is automated. such that people can then go and then you know Arkham itself can give you a crumb or or you know a string to tug on um to then begin unraveling more of a story of what's going on on chain and then from there you know maybe the investigation gets interesting you come up with a trading thesis um or it just kind of generally allows you to understand more uh about what's going on uh uh in any of these crypto ecosystems.

I go I got maybe a long shot like is there obviously we talked about B you know institutions retail buying selling ETH that's a lot of the onchain activity happening right now in recent weeks is there any information or intelligence that you've gained through Arkham that has kind of flown under the radar like maybe didn't really get picked up too much and it was kind of an insight that piqued your interest but the rest of the community you know for for whatever reason kind of didn't really didn't really focus on too much >> to be honest. All of the stuff that we find uh you know even remotely interesting we post online >> like anything that uh we think like hey this is cool or this is worth looking

at. Um even if you know >> you can kind of think about our content uh strategy and what we've put online into a few different buckets. Obviously there's the stuff that everyone's talking about that's super interesting like okay by bit just got hacked you know whatever. Um, that's the kind of thing everyone's going to be talking about it. It's going to be all over the news. We're just providing supplemental info in a way that is already kind of being talked about and people have already chimed in on and we're just tagging along, right? And those are the kind of blockbuster sort of viral stories. Um, then there's the stuff that is actually produced by us uh without any kind of external source. So, for example, um we posted about that hack

that we discovered which we think is the largest theft in human history of Bitcoin from a Chinese miner. Um and we posted that uh I think it must have been 10 days ago or close to two weeks ago at this point. Um and that was something that we discovered on our own, broke that story. Um and you know, it took off. It was viral. It probably has like a million views on it or something like that. Um but it's something that came organically from us without an external kind of source um coming onto it. Um and so that those are kind of interesting.

And then we have the much smaller stories which are just interesting things on chain. You know this guy got sniped or this person you know sold x amount of ETH or you know y person is currently underwater on their trades on this you know perex or something. Um, and those are, you know, those are also quite interesting. But generally speaking, our strategy has always been to share as much as possible of what we find kind of interesting within the space without necessarily holding anything back. Um, and most of the time it ends up getting some attention.

Man, I think that uh I think that um having having like having the ability to to use like use onchain data as a process for what you're trying to do in the space with when it comes to investing, trading, I mean, it's it's not even an edge anymore, but it's just like a an an additional step of process to like be looking at tracking wallets, be looking at what people are doing. um you know and and I think that what you guys have built is is going to keep kind of scaling into this yeah this full intelligence platform for uh you know for probably nation states around the world big corporations family offices etc. So, you know, I think you're probably scratching the surface of that

now. And I just I encourage you just to keep pushing that forward and would love to have you on again in the next couple of uh months, closer to the end of the year maybe, and see where we're at and uh see if we can try to figure out in this mania phase that that we're kind of in uh kind of what the whales are doing on on chain. >> Absolutely. Well, thank you very much for having me. >> Yeah, man. I appreciate it. >> Thank you. See you next time. >> Cheers, man. All righty, Rob. What's the state of the onchain? Well, everyone's buying ETH.

I'll tell you that much. >> Mark, >> we got our last and f our final guest, Red from IP World from a small token, # Larry, not financial advice. We're going to talk to him about Larry, about IP World. What's going on over there, Rob? How you feeling, man? >> Feel great. >> Okay, I'm here. Yeah, it's the afternoon here. It's 3 PM. We are uh we're back, right? I mean, today's Tuesday. I'm back in the studio. We're dialed. We're ready to ramp up. I think uh I think we're ready to enter the rollup bull market of our own.

>> Yeah, I'm looking at the waves. Looks absolutely epic. Can't wait to get out there. Just so stoked to surf. >> Tell us the surfing story. You've been in Hawaii for a few days. maybe maybe going on a week or two now. >> So, this past weekend was the biggest waves in in the Southshore that I think that they've seen in in in multiple years. I didn't even paddle out on Saturday uh at the main breaks. It was just massive. Yesterday, we got some sick ones in the morning. It's probably like head high or like maybe like a little bit overhead. Um, but honestly, I've just been getting worked, like getting my paddle strength back and uh just getting back in the in the in the field

of of play. So, and there's just so many good surfers out here and um it's just been beautiful. So, today the swell is like the last day of of the swell really. So, I'm going to go try to get some waves. But, but yeah, that's been the vibes. I mean, I don't have any crazy stories. I mean, I just been seeing guys get barreled and just you just get absolutely shacked and rip hard. So, yeah, it's been fun. >> Sounds great. We're going to get Red up here in a little bit. >> Yeah, I think we got him. I think we're we're ready. Let's get Red up on stage.

>> How's it going? >> And it's good to have him. Larry's in the building. >> Hell yeah. Good to be here. >> Yeah, man. Um, that lady is something else. Oh yeah, it's one of my favorites for sure. >> Do you guys do you have a collection, bro? >> I just have two. >> Sick. >> But I was pretty picky with them, >> dude. We're doing well. Um, you know, bull market's on. Can Can you feel it or what? >> Yeah, it's it's it's definitely coming back, man. I think people never know what the hell's going to happen, but things are things are looking good.

Also, especially on the story side. >> Yeah. with the Treasury company and more. I mean, dude, our goal for today is is to educate our audience as to whether they should invest in IP World or not. So, you have you have a big task ahead of you. >> Are you ready? >> Oh, yeah. I got you. I got you. >> All right, Rob, pass over to you, man. I know you're burning with some questions about these uh scary looking cats as the mascot of choice. Let's get into it. I mean that that's obviously the first question is why the scary looking cats.

Second question is what is IP world? Third question is why hashtag Larry? >> Gotcha. Gotcha. Um great questions. I guess I'll start with the first one. Why why the evil black looking cat? Um you know I think back in like 2021 it was like all about you know dogs. It was like peak dog meta. And I I do think we're seeing like this cultural zeitgeist sort of change into cats. And so I'll tell you more about IP World in a bit, but like when we were thinking about the first sort of big runner for her story and like the first really good partner, we wanted to find someone who really sort of like cultivated that

bottoms up IP monetization narrative. And so, Evil Larry is actually a pretty well-known cat meme. I think they won like number three for nine gag meme of the year. Um, but it it used to come from this other meme called like scary stories where they would basically narrate different like fictional fantasies of like the most ridiculous uh just stories possible and they overlay them with like the evil Larry Cat memes. Um, I don't know the exact, you know, history, but now it's just getting really big, especially on Instagram, uh, and Tik Tok. They're doing like billions of impressions at this point, I think, year to date. So,

you know, Evil Larry is like, you know, the very first one. And, um, you know, I got to actually see the cat multiple times in person, and it's one hell of a cute cat, man. So, that that's kind of why, you know, Larry, first up. And then, uh, yeah, second question. Um, I'm not sure if you gave any context on IP World or or any of that. I guess I can I can do that. Um, so like a little bit of background. I've been like in the space for like over 10 years and I've always found that my passion sort of leans into trading, but especially like meme coins because I kind of think like speculating on culture is a lot of fun. Sort of like front running virality is super

interesting. Um, and you know, there's a long history on on how I got here, but you know, basically me and Sy, you know, the founder of Story established like, you know, a pretty close relationship. And I basically wanted to take all the problems I learned in the trenches, everything I thought was wrong with like broken incentives and like cultural asset selection. And I wanted to turn that and my passion, you know, into something differentiated and something that could bring retail into the trenches. And so IP World is a manifestation of that. And and what it is exactly is it's a monetization platform for internet native IPs. And

the way we do this monetization is we're evolving meme coins into licensable, we call them IP coins that basically reward both creators and the communities. And so talking about like you know the problems before I kind of see two big issues in like the existing memecoin space. The first one has to do with legitimacy. So if you remember, you know, Peanut and Chill guy, almost all of these like biggest runners are usually community members ripping off of existing viral internet IP, launching something and then giving the original creator basically like no no fees in

return. And that's why, you know, Peanut, they ended up like, you know, uh suing Binance. You know, chill guy had this whole debacle with them. I mean, this guy was like promoting his stuff on Xbox, but he would get pissed off if a bunch of internet randoms sent him like $100,000. And so, a lot of it's like, you know, lack of education, but also like there's no legitimacy layer for bringing these guys on board. And then the biggest problem, the other one is like the broken incentives. So, like right now, right, um, you know, pump bonk, I think most launchpads do this.

If you launch a token, all the creator revshare goes to the token deployer, which they usually call the dev wallet. And almost 99% of the time, the token deployer will ultimately rug because most of these guys are playing a game of like, you know, pump and dumping as much, you know, viral stuff, as much stuff that they can copy paste as possible. And so their incentive is like cash out as as soon as possible. Um, we think that the better mode of creator fee attribution is through IP. And you know, the problem is IP is a super boomer term. But the truth is like if you peel all the substance under it, it is like the right way of doing creator

fee attribution. Almost everything is based fundamentally uh on someone else's IP. And so on our platform, the way it works is anyone can register any IP from which they can launch whatever token they want. And these IPs, they start out in this unverified state. But if the original IP owner ever verifies ownership of their IP and we have a whole process of this for this uh which involves like communities identifying who the owner is our internal moderators then doing our own investigation and then you know some more advanced like

OOTH process using Tik Tok or X but basically once these IP owners come on board and verify the IP they then get 3% of every token deployed under it vested over a 3-month period. And so like the high level goal here is like these IP owners should be the number one holders and number one evangelizers of all the tokens deployed through them. And then on top of that to prevent you know negative sell pressure we also give them 50% of all of the gas token trading fees. And so that's that's sort of like our solution to better creator fee attribution. And then the other side of this, and you can tell me

to stop yapping if I'm going on. >> No, keep keep going. Just just just drop the alpha, man. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So the other part of this is like the community side. So right now, um there's not many incentives either for community members to basically help market the coins they're a part of besides hoping that you know there's some long-term you know push by the core team that'll give them a better exit you know strategy. Uh for us again my belief is that the ultimate way of gaining price movement for coins is virality. I think once retail comes

on board once the retail floodgates open virality is going to be that key uh fundamental analysis indicator because everything's going to be about the attention economy soon. Uh but anyway, I just sidetracked a bit. What we're doing for the community is every week and this feature is going to unlock next week. Uh but every week we're also sort of like Kaido but for Gen Z internet virality. And so behind the scenes we actually index all these different IPs that get registered on our platform and we generate metrics for gauging virality.

So, if you go on our app, if you go to evil Larry, you'll see the overview section kind of shows how many impressions there are in total on X, you know, what the momentum was on Tik Tok, what's the internal sentiment, uh, as well as like what's the market, you know, dominance. And so, we packaged all this data and we provide these virality scores for giving you a sense of how viral the IP is. But most importantly, if you link your Tik Tok or your X account on our platform and you're actually posting about the IPs for the tokens you hold, every week we basically create a leaderboard of who has created

the most impressions for the IP and we basically airdrop to the top 20 to 50 participants or users. uh 50% of all the memecoin fees. And so the whole incentive issue, we solved this by really first giving IP owners this flywheel that they can latch on to as well as giving communities this other flywheel that they can latch onto. And I sort of call this like UGC 3.0. Like if you don't remember like you know back in the day marketing was very different and now you have this like new world of UGC where you see all these brands like commenting on Tik Tok videos and they're like yo can I use your video you know to

promote our brand and they still have to like kind of go through an intermediary uh to to get that approved. I kind of think meme coins as much as people were bare posting about them a few months ago I've always had this same thesis. I think once retail comes back on board, which it can with the right narrative around IP coins legitimacy and so on, I do think they can become a new way of sort of uh incentivizing these like UGC grassroot marketing movements. And so another way of putting it is we're aligning IP owners with their communities uh through this nextgen monetization platform.

Let I'll I'll just go ahead and just make sure I just think it's important to kind of frame this to make sure that we understand the mechanism, right? And so what we have here is that the world of generating these derivative tokens or IP tokens is open to anyone. Anyone can create these. the creator of the IP itself, for instance, like Peanut the Squirrel's owner, right, can go verify himself or herself on IP World and claim their 3% of the to of is it all of the derivative token supplies? They get 3% of all of them.

>> Yep. You you nailed it. And basically once they claim is when the vesting starts. >> Okay. >> However many tokens where we call them remix, that's the word we're trying to cialize however many tokens were remixed under the IP. Once they claim, they start this threemonth vesting process in which they get the 3% allocation. >> Got it. And you're indexing data from across all these social platforms, X and Tik Tok predominantly, and you're you're aggregating all of that data into a virality score. And that's what speculators are speculating on. Is this virality score going to go up or down for this particular piece of IP?

>> Exactly. That's the goal. Uh to be completely transparent, I don't think people are using this yet, but that's the end goal because like we're first sort of targeting these more like cryptonative users. And if you're like, you know, in the CT trenches, I don't think like Tik Tok meta is back. It was peak in like October 2024. Like that was my favorite, you know, with like, you know, chill guy, huz, muddang, all that was amazing. Um, I think that's going to come back and once it comes back, like that's what I want people to be using these scores for, for basically getting sense of mind share of their IP and basically using it to gify rewarding their communities.

>> Um, so a question for you then. So with like with like the most popular uh kind of like meme coins today uh like Doge or Ship, Pangu, even like SPX6900, some of these like newer ones, how would that work with a platform like this? Like does that are those compatible or is this strictly for like new ideas based off like old IP or old concepts that are are usable here? Like how does the how does this idea translate to the current state of of tokens? Yeah, that's a yeah, that's such a good question. Um, I think there's two parts of this question. One is like you have these ultra like viral big IPs already and like can anything happen with IP

World and and those? And then I think the other part of the question is like there's also like new ideas all the time that aren't necessarily like their own IPs yet. And so how does that work with the platform? So, the first one, you know, as someone who has been trenching for so long, I mean, if I weren't doing this, I'd just basically be gambling, like losing all my money full-time. And then, and, you know, I've hit bankruptcy multiple times. That's why I'm trying to translate that energy into building. Um, but like we make a very uh we're very specific about the types of IPs that we want to bring on board to

begin with. We do not want to condone any sort of PVP. I do think for a lot of these tokens like the blockchain they're on is sort of like their cultural origin story and to some extent it would almost be considered cultural appropriation you know to do a relaunch for these guys. So what we do have and this is a bit of alpha I didn't even you know talk about this yet what we will have coming very soon is a liquidity migration program >> where you can actually take existing tokens uh just take a portion of the liquidity like one to 2.5% bring it over to IP world and we change the fee distribution so that almost all

the fees go directly to the IP owner who verifies So to like answer your question more simply, we do not condone relaunching, you know, tokens that are already big, but we will support optional like liquidity migration programs if you want to have this better way of getting the fees into the hands of the owner. And then I think the other part of the question which I really like is like, you know, what about stuff like SPX6900 or I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at. There's basically a lot of like new ideas. Yes. that don't really start as anything established. Um, and so that's why on our platform, and I didn't talk about this earlier just to make things simple, but we actually have

two kinds of IPs. There's creator IPs, and this is probably what you're most familiar with. Basically anything with a designated owner, you know, any type of person, any kind of project, any AI, any viral pet, basically almost anything you see on Tik Tok, we can consider a creator IP where there's like a designated entity or person controlling it. Um, that's the creator IP part. The other type of IP we call community IPs and we basically uh describe these as cryptonative movements that turn into their own brands. And so SPX6900

is a perfect example where you get a random group of like internet people, you start this movement and suddenly it's like the biggest thing on the internet. And so the difference between creator and community IPs are creator IPs are owned by that one designated individual entity whereas community IPs have a very interesting requirement. >> Yeah. >> Which is that they have to launch a token when you register the IP initially and basically that originating token becomes the owner of the community IP.

So for community IPs, they're owned by a collective whereas creator IPs are owned, you know, by let's say more centralized entities and these reflect two modes of distribution uh for creating these different brands or IPs. One is top down, which is like the creator version, and then the other one is like bottoms up, which is like the cryptonative uh version. And to be honest, like 99% of the stuff you find on Pumped Off Fun actually uh fills into this second category because it's just like random people creating, you know, taking their photos that they just took, you know, in the morning and stupid images and trying to rally people together to buy it.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And that was the the crux of the question is understanding like exactly how these like newer concepts that aren't necessarily derived in any sort of uh previous existence or previous idea. How how would those be? And so you I think you answered that well. >> Um my last thing is just kind of like why why uh why build this on story? You know obviously story is is you know pion this kind of IP concept. uh you know what has what has that experience been like?

>> Yeah. So I think there there's two two parts of this. I think one is you know just I've you know just just due to like you know historical uh situations I've developed a very strong relationship uh with the story team and so a lot of it is um just kind of helping them out. But I think also with these types of like new technologies, sometimes it's easier to really make noise on like a newer chain with a bit less traction to begin with.

But really the the biggest reason, and I think this is something people don't know too much about story yet, just because it's still so unknown, but they are an L1 purposebuilt for IP. So behind the scenes even on like the consensus layer they have a bunch of modules. I think the two biggest one are the royalty module as well as the licensing module. They've built out primitives that let us put on top of our tokens legally binding licensing agreements that can be actualized onchain and enforced in court. And this is really important

because the bigger institutions, the bigger creators, their biggest fear when launching any token is that they're just going to end up being topdown, you know, PNDs and that they're going to get their reputation completely tarnished. And you know, to be honest with you, I mean, even my mom thinks I'm working in a scam industry. I don't even like bother explaining, but like you go on Instagram, you mention anything about like crypto, it's like dude, they they just think you're a scammer. And that's why like marketing for retail is so much harder. But I think what story is providing us and what we're really trying to help cultivate is this new narrative of IP coins that are an

evolution of meme coins that don't necessarily, you know, have no licensing restrictions attached that are like legally enforcable in court. For example, if you look at our IPcoin license, it sort of stipulates exactly how the royalty proceeds work and it also makes claims around how these coins are able to market your IP and what they're not allowed to market. And so we always want to make the IP owner basically, you know, the protagonist for their story. And these legally binding contracts provide a way of doing that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Red, red, red, man, we appreciate your time and um looking forward to to watching you build us out and hopefully have you on again in uh you know around the end of the year or sometime and see where we're at with Larry and with IP World. Um just uh keep keep redirecting that trenching energy to building, man. I think it'll serve you well. >> Sweet, man. I appreciate you guys especially having me on this. This is great. >> Awesome, dude. Thanks for coming. Speak to you soon. All right. Peace. >> All righty, guys. That will do it for our stream today.

Um, we're having uh fun fun stream. Um, lot of uh a lot of fun conversations with I mean, I liked Not So Fast the most. That was uh super fun. Uh Miguel was quite in intelligent along with Maya, more technical, and then kind of rounded it out with uh some more kind of DJ stuff. So, overall, I think well well-rounded, fun conversations, Rob. And uh yeah, man. I'm ready to get some waves and get some breakfast. >> Love it. I'll let you go. Fun combos all across the board. We hit social file. We hit more technical conversations. We had some OG lore. And uh and we got some more institutional data insights as well. Thanks for another good stream, Andy, Marcelo, all the guys behind the

scenes, Leonero, Alex. We will see you Thursday. Thursday, same time. Be there. >> Peace. Peace.