Rollup TV: Stabled Up EP8, Theo Network, Hyperliquid, Starknet, Sui Group Holdings

Transcript

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>> [music] [music] >> We threw down two days [music] live stream. We got an event planned Q4. Stay [music] tuned. We're going into the events business. Rob the boys [music] straight days live stream number one. [music] [music]

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Feels good to be back. Bing, bang, boom, pow. Crypto companies are going public. Uh this is 2025. It's October 30th and uh it's the start of a new era, the beginning of a new chapter. Uh some might say we are in a wormhole to a new reality because back when we were trading dog coins on Bitrex, no one thought that this was possible. Only in our wildest dreams did we think this was possible.

We have Trump and she shaking hands aggressively overseas. We have Jerome Powell cutting rates like his job depends on it. And we are unsure about the continuation of the bull market. This is the rollup TV. This is Florida. This is Robbie Clases at your service. Guys, an incredible show today. Uh we've got a couple of guys in the Solana stable coin world. These guys are going to tell us about the evolving landscape of stable coins, specifically on Salana. They've

got a unique perspective on the Western Union stable coin launch. We are going to ask them if Solana paid $25 million, $50 million, bajillion dollars in order for a few minutes of Western Union's exclusive stable coin activity. And we are going to um we are going to have a tremendous show because just after Garrett and uh Stefan join us from squads in the stable coin Solana world. Uh we are going to be joined by Iggy from Theo.xyz.

If you guys are unfamiliar with Iggy and Theo, uh Theo is reimagining global markets. Uh because Theo is a full stack platform connecting onchain capital to global financial markets. They work with the likes of Manifold, Seleni Capital, Amber, tokenization infrastructure that goes beyond issuance. We saw what happened to the most recent tokenization platform. They went public on the stock exchange. And so we're going to talk to uh we're going to talk to Theo about what is happening with all of these tokenization platforms, which ones are winning and why. Uh followed by none other than David of Hyperlid Strategies.

Hyperlid is holding up the best in the market. Uh some might say Zcash. We had uh Josh Swyheart of Zcash yesterday. The roll-up TV is the only place where Hyperlid meets Zcash meets uh memecoins. And that's not all for you guys. We are going to follow up uh David from Hype Strategies. We're going to have Natan from Starknet. Very excited to speak with Natan. It's always a pleasure to have our Starknet friends on the show. And then we're going to close off by speaking with another digital asset treasury company, the Sweet Holdings Group, Stefan from Suite.

Guys, we have an incredible incredible show for you today. If you didn't tune in to show to our show yesterday, uh you missed a mega stream. We live streamed the FOMC meeting. We spoke with PMT. We live predicted on KHI Powell cut rates. He mentioned too many words that we didn't want him to mention. Beige book, projection, median. We got absolutely smoked. And uh and that's what happened yesterday. And now we are going to uh we are going to bring you guys another jam-packed day of action on today's show. Again, we're going to start off with our friends uh from Squads and we're going to learn about the stable

coin world on Solana. Guys, we're going to be right back. We're going to flip the screen and we're going to get right into it. You guys are in store for a tremendous stream today. We'll be right back. Heat. Heat. Heat up

Heat. Heat. >> [music] [music] >> All right. All right. We are live.

Stefan, Garrett, guys, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. It's uh it's an absolute pleasure to uh chat about the world of stable coins with you guys. Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad we made it happen. Uh guys, you recently got some uh some love from Anatoli. Uh personally, that's how I I found out about you guys. Uh Anatoli was shouting you guys out as part of the uh stablecoin world on Salana. Uh the very following week, we saw Western Union announce that they're launching a stable coin on Salana. And so that's uh part of what I wanted to talk to you guys about.

Uh before we do, it's both of your first times on the show. I think that calls for a couple of intros. We we'll keep it brief and concise, but uh who is Stefan? Who is Garrett? And uh generally, how did you guys end up here building squads? >> Um so I'm Stfan. I'm co-founder and CEO at at Squads about four years ago. I really got into Salana with uh my very best friend. We met our third co-founder and decided to build the most secure and resilient stable coin infrastructure for the ecosystem and been doing that for the last four years now. And yeah, I'm Garrett. I do partnerships and comms at squads. I was at Blockworks before this. I did Lightseed the Salana podcast with Mert from Helas. So, uh, I got him famous and I hired him. So,

that's why he is where he is today. >> Wow, that is an epic M shout out. You literally built the guy from scratch. He couldn't have done it without you. Garrett, any any just before we get into stable coins, any comment on the most recent uh happenings at Block Works, the transformation from a a media company to a data company. >> Yeah, I mean, I'm obviously from the outside looking in. I think it's uh it makes sense that they're focusing on data and research. They also killed at that. They have a really good team. I mean, they had an awesome news team. I was really close with a lot of those uh guys and girls. So, it's sad to see that happen. I know they're going to end up in good places, though. Um Blockworks has two killer founders. I think they're going to do really good. Um the most

impressive thing for me with them is that over time that they've just been like kind of slow and steady and you've seen a lot of news groups and different companies kind of fall off as you go through the cycles because sometimes they go too risk on etc. And I think Block Works has done it right and that they were bootstrapped and then they didn't raise money until about four years in and I think it's playing out for them really well. So yeah I it's really sad to see everybody have to get laid off. Um but like I said I think everyone's going to end up in a good place and I've already seen a lot of Salana teams reach out. So if you're looking to get into comms or marketing on this end there's going to be a lot of job openings. Very cool. Yeah, it's

funny to think about a news company or a media company going risk on, but I think that is what we see. We see teams get tribalistic. We see them go all in uh with some of their reporting and take take leaps and bounds. And so uh us at the rollup, we've been doing this for going on six years now. Started in DeFi summer 2020. And it's just legitimacy. We try to keep an educational framing to all of this and just help bring uh true factual knowledge. One to help us, right? so that we can make good decisions as as personal capital allocators, but then also everyone watching can also make good decisions as well now that they're well informed.

Guys, again, thank you so much for coming on and for being here. Um, I I' I'd love to hear a little bit more about squads and then I do want to get into a sense of how you're seeing the stable coin landscape playing out on Solana generally. Um so Stefan maybe you can start tell us you know what has it been like your founder journey coming on starting squads and then generally why did you decide to build this protocol on Salana? >> Yeah so it it basically is a journey of uh of four years. Originally we started focusing on governance infrastructure and then pretty quickly figured out that we're going to focus on multisc as the core component and then somewhere along the way we figured out that multisc is just one way to configure a smart account and today we're the biggest smart account infrastructure provider um

for Salana and SVM and it was a very kind of natural progression together with the ecosystem we you know in the moment in time we we were what the ecosystem needed us to be the most and you know in the when when FTX happened for example multisig and self custody for larger teams and uh valuable onchain assets particularly within Salana ecosystem became paramount and so that also accelerated our growth in that moment in time and as we have been growing together with our customers and and sort of Salana teams and larger protocols we saw them um rely on stable coins more and more right and use the multic infrastructure um to run payroll to pay contributors to essentially run their businesses um entirely on chain stable coins and so we also had to evolve together with them and and

bringing in you know more products and services that really allow you to go fully on chain stable coins as a business and now we also have a consumer touch point with our fuse wallet and we also have now a developer product that makes it easy for other builders to come in and build um similar financial applications on top of the infrastructure we've been developing for the last couple years. >> And did you start relatively general and then you sort of uh dialed in honed in on stable coins as the primary driver of what you can use its infrastructure for? How did you start from kind of a general smart contract platform and then end up taking taking the leap and taking the dive into stable coins? What was the rationale behind the decision-making process?

>> I think it's um it's seeing how uh your customers actually interact with your product, right? And where they find most value. Um I think the way we think about like our business generally is the there's the infrastructure layer which is Squad's protocol. It's really good at bringing in capital and assets into um into the ecosystem of squads because it's very secure. It's very reliable and um it's it's now a very trusted sort of lindy layer for securing assets within sort of the the SVM world. And then we have this kind of second layer on top of the protocol which is the productivity layer, right? Like it's it's apps and products and services that allow us to help make that capital productive, right? And so um we saw that most of our customers were um starting to rely on

stable coins as as essentially the core infrastructure to run their their business. And it became very clear to us that this is where things are going and actually kind of got, you know, that sense before there was this sort of stable coin many and everybody was talking about them because we actually saw that happen, you know, on our platform, right? We saw our customers do that. And so that was really the main driver is just like talking to our customers and talking to our users, right? and figuring out that this is where the world is going and then um really um kind of focusing heavily on on bringing more stable coin focused products that allow you to run your financial operations on chain uh to market. And so that was kind of the journey for the last year and a half.

>> Very cool. And uh this is this is certainly something that is continuing to accelerate. You guys saw it early and now uh Western Union has announced that they're going to be launching a stable coin. This was man this was like the last hold out. This was like the last person that was like, you know, in their horse and buggy when the car came out. They were like, "No, like don't take away my horse and buggy. Cars are, you know, they're they're not going to work." Man, Western Union launching a stable coin and they decided to do it on Salana. There's rumors that, you know, Salana might have paid for some sort of exclusivity arrangement. Can I just get a general reaction to what it's like that now Western Union has said that they're going to launch a stable coin

and they're going to do it on Salana. What is your reaction to this news? I I think Salana has an amazing team and uh they're working really hard to make the you know the fintech world and the payments world um outside of crypto aware of the amazing technology stack that's been built in the last four five years I think at this point and um I think Western Union is just you know it's a major it's a great milestone right for for the team at Salana and for the ecosystem broadly but um you know job is not finished there's there's so many companies that are just thinking about their stable strategies and um there's so much ground to cover and there's so um like Western Union type caliber um uh partners to acquire and so I would say Western Union is fantastic. I think the

the rumors are incredibly silly and I think um you know a large incumbent player recognizing Salana for its um for its technology is u is actually very rational and makes a ton of sense. Um and I think we're going to see a lot more of those in the coming months and years. >> Cool. Garrett, question for you. um what is it like to acquire uh one of these stable coin partners? Um are you guys working with Western Union? If so, how were you able to land that? If not, what are some of the other stable coins that you're targeting to ultimately acquire uh as part of the squad's partner network?

>> Yeah, I mean, we want to be involved with as many stable coins as possible. I'll say that just and kind of bouncing off what Son said, I think it's it's really great even from a brand awareness standpoint. I was just at Money2020. a lot of the people there heard about the news and started asking around and then you start hearing Salana more and more whereas like the first two two days or first day of the conference you didn't hear that at all. Um so it's a big change there. Uh I will say one thing that's unique about maybe the Salana ecosystem and I think squads in particular that really stood out to me when I got here is that was you know after FTX and everything happened is that you have people here that continue to build and try to make great products no matter what's kind of happening on

the outside partnership side. I think it is nice from a momentum standpoint and also brand awareness, but like where you stood here, we're just going to build great products and no matter who um comes on through partnerships. Uh we know in the long run if you build great products, everybody's going to come to you. So um if you bring in the users then the supply side, which to me are the stable coin partners, they'll come and and that's our goal. >> Got it. And so speaking, you know, it seems like everyone in their mother is a stablecoin issuer these days, right? So speaking to kind of that the group out there that is now getting into the game issuing stable coins, they're going and they're putting their their foot into this business. It feels like every bank uh every major institution if they have some sort of financial capital at stake,

they're going to be settling using stable coins. JP Morgan just announced uh something in this regard today. What do you say to these guys? You know, what is the conversation? Does it differ between enterprise and more cryptonative? uh like what is the elevator pitch for squads and why why a stablecoin issuer should use squads? >> Um I think on the specifically on the issuer side and as you're the pitch we've been making for the last six months and we we can't kind of talk publicly about a lot of these conversations and and and things in the pipeline [clears throat] but there there's a lot more things coming. It's um we are pitching ourselves as a trust department to design your first your stable coin strategy right and how you think about um self-custody key management stable coin accounts um what

how you want to make that stable coin productive right beyond just essentially using it for you know shuffling capital around and sending it from one address to another um is yield a component of that like what kind of yield and so we really come in as this partner that can give you the infrastructure can give you the um expertise packaged also in the form of our enterprise and developer offering grid uh which is you know a set of simple APIs that unlock stable coin accounts, cardians um uh plug into orchestration uh give you programmability and and onchain policies and so we are really that partner that helps you design the stable coin strategy and we're you know obviously vertically integrated with Salana. we're single chain uh because we think this is how we can deliver the most um um the best experience to to to

the customer, right? And so from that perspective, we are also very synerggetic with the work being done at uh obviously by the Swana team. And so we work closely with them um on on sort of thinking through what is the right path for bringing in more fintex and large institutions and asset issuers onto into the salon ecosystem >> and like that that makes sense right and Salana's [snorts] philosophy has always been vertically integrated you know before it was like modular versus monolithic generally we've seen more and more applications platforms L1's take this approach hyperlquid is going in this direction it's this vertically integrated direction uh and and so we're seeing seeing stable coin issuers also go in this direction. We're seeing the rise of stable chains, Circle, Arc, you

know, we've got Tempo on the rise. Um, another another acquisition is Mastercard that acquired or is supposedly acquiring Zero Hash, you know, for the settlement of these transactions and and specifically payments. So, how do you see given that you guys are focused on Salana, right? And and there's a very integrated vertically integrated approach there. I could you just unpack more about the rationale? Why does this give issuers a better experience than say launching their own stable chain?

Um I think maybe Garrett can also speak to I think the benefit of existing in in internet inter capital markets but it's the idea that it's um it's a thriving uh open permissionless blockchain that has defi activity that has you know inter capital markets activity that has a lot of asset issuers coming in uh to do things on that chain and so existing in this open environment this is where you can actually reap the most benefits of uh of an innovation mindset right and innovations from the open that come from the open system. Um and from a security and sort of uh reliability guarantees uh we definitely believe that for um like when you have you know a bunch of corporate chains that sort of inter interface one with one another um that

is actually not um that is not not a viable foundation having um having a secure base layer that actually gives you security guarantees, performance guarantees and has um you know a massive community that hyper optimizes for um performance and speed and security of the underlying blockchain. chain is actually very important and we think it's uh you know it's a massive benefit and so when we are in those conversations with larger enterprises that are thinking about their stable coin strategies that's the argument we're always making and um so far it's been it's been pretty successful. >> Yeah. What I would add to that too is I think all these stable coin issuers that are trying to more or less I don't think there's going to be a thousand of them, right? I think there's probably going to be a handful that really succeed at this payment use case. There's going to be so

many stable coins from the sense of like my platform if I'm Starbucks I might have stable coin uh Starbucks coin you know but I think we're only going to have like USDC USDT and these other probably like five stable coins they're going to want to be everywhere to services business but if you're picking a home the thing with Salana is that it's been around for the last like five years we do have a lot of payment chains coming out um they have a lot of great features but I would say at least 95% of that is covered by Salana today and it's live in production I think it's another thing with squads is that we've been around since 2021 working in the stable coin and infrastructure ructure and security space. So if you want to go somewhere today that has a whole DeFi ecosystem built out, you have

experienced builders, you have the infrastructure in place, that's where Salana is. So I think you make that your home, but I think it's kind of silly to think that a stable coin is ever just going to be on one chain in perpetuity if you want to be an ultimate like payment stable coin because you want to be everywhere. >> Right. Right. We had uh Jeremy Aair come on the show and he was describing this effect where think about Netflix. You can watch Netflix on your iPhone. You can watch Netflix on your laptop. You can watch it on your TV. You can watch it on an airplane. There's all these places it becomes ubiquitous once you have the proliferation and the distribution of a stable coin on all the chains. And so could you could you separate out maybe what you know Garrett when when you say

you you know you may have Starbucks coin but you may not have you only may have like four or five payment coins. Could you kind of just separate those two threads? Yeah, I mean I think about it that like every big um company that has customer demand is going to want to have their own coin in some sense own stable coin and just the sense that they can make all the rewards earn the yield on that. So it's more of like loyalty points at the end of the day more or less. Um but I only think when you're talking about international payments and payments in between companies, payments in between banks, there's only going to be a handful of stable coins that actually everyone's willing to accept and also has a really deep liquidity.

Um, and so at that point, you know, you're not going to have 10,000 of those, the alphabet soup where there's so many different names of USDC or, you know, USD token. Um, so in my opinion, there's probably going to be like three to five of those. But I think anybody that has a lot of customer demand is going to have essentially a checking and a savings account where if you have customer funds sitting in your ecosystem, like even Stripe, it's easy, right? Like they have so many balances in their ecosystem, they're going to have a stable coin so that they can get those rewards and also share it with their their customers. Whereas like if you're holding USDC, um, typically you're not earning anything on that. But for payments, those type of stable coins make sense.

>> Got it. And and how can they leverage squads in this example, right? If there's a fragmentation problem and we've got thousands of stable coins in there and Starbucks has a stable coin and USDC exists and Chick-fil-A coin and all all these different things. G even given that they're they're more of loyalty programs, we're going to need to clear between these stable coins somehow, right? How can they use squads to help accomplish and maybe fix some of this fragmentation issue? Yeah, it's a good question. Chick-fil-A coin made me laugh, by the way. Um, [laughter] Steph, I could I can let you take this, but I'll just give my like kind of high level thoughts. I mean, I think a lot of this is a liquidity issue, right? If you're going in and out of your own stable coin to one that you make payments with, that's a liquidity issue.

That's not something that we naturally focus on, but what we do provide is the infrastructure that allows you to do this money movement in a secure way. Um, so that's kind of like the high level that I'll provide. Um, and Steph, I'll let you take it. >> Yeah, I think we're not solving interoperability, right? like we're solving um secure reliable infrastructure that allows you to um deploy stable coin accounts for your own enterprise for your customers for um basically for for the whole ecosystem right and and design a stable coin strategy around money movement and stable coin accounts and so I think from from our perspective obviously we think that interperability particularly in the stable coin space is um is going to happen and there's going to be multiple chains right we're not thinking that salon is going to be the only chain to exist and I think the the way we think

about our infrastructure is that um it it gives you it allows you to maximize uh benefits that Solana can give you from a performance and and reliability perspective. Um and then obviously if you want to have your asset uh you know on multiple chains then you're going to have to match the same functionality. Um but I think from a that's from like the infrastructure perspective from a product perspective, you know, our focus is very much on bringing in net new um inflows into the stable coin space, right? Like we're we're not kind of thinking about how can we get supply like stable coin supply from chain X to Salana or you know the other way around.

It's very much how can we how can we grow the stable coin supply, right? How can we create net new stable coin supply that comes in through you know different entry points that we create with our products and allow um you know to to get the efficiency gains of using stable coins over fiat money. >> Yeah. And I'd add to that like it's hard if you're a company coming in the space and you're trying to say would we put our customer deposits into stable coins if you can't trust it and think it's secure and it's easy to manage and those are basically all three things that we were trying to do constantly and we started that with crypto teams and now we're bringing that out to the traditional finance world >> right so help me rationalize this then there's uh you know 300 billion of

stable coins now I think we all have heard you know secretary besson and the projections of how much you know this could be in the scale 3.7 trillion by 2027, 2028. Um, and so if we're not too focused on, you know, trying to take the stable coins from other chains, that's where, you know, predominantly most of the stable coins are are today, right? We've got I'm looking at DeFi Lama here, 160 billion on ETH, uh 78 billion on Tron, 15 billion on Salana. So Salana is number three, but it's still it's still, you know, 10x away from from the the scale of stable coins on Ethereum. And so are you guys primarily focused on trying to win some

of these stable coin deals like Western Union when these guys come online, they're going to be using Salana, they haven't gone and, you know, deployed somewhere else first or is is in an effort to grow the the supply of stable coins on Salana. it it still makes sense to try to sort of siphon off or vampire attack some of the stable coins from other chains or or is that not the right way to think about it? >> Um I think Altitude our business account is a good example, right? So we announced uh just a month ago public launch of Altitude which is essentially gives you a business banking experience but purely on stable coins. There's sort of no crypto knowledge required. It's all um you know any kind of CFO and operational person uh in in a traditional startup would be able to fully navigate it and and use it as as

if it's their sort of traditional bank account. is fully powered by stable coins and squads infrastructure. And I think that's a good example where um it's much less interesting for us to go and and say well how can we get more uh of the stable supply from Ethereum rather than looking at uh you know a massive market and saying can we allow um like you know a thousand 10,000 100,000 businesses to start essentially banking on stable coin rails using our products and our infrastructure and growing stable coin supply along that way as opposed to trying to figure out like how can we do you know these kind of u zero sum games uh because we think that the It's a massive opportunity that, you know, somebody should do this and it's much more just engaging for us and and uh we think a long-term much

better strategy to come in and into into market that doesn't have uh stable coin solutions at all and and help businesses manage their financial operations much more efficiently using this new technology as opposed to trying to go out there and uh and and move some supply from, you know, Tron or Ethereum. And so in in that regard, when you guys are having conversations with enterprises and they're looking at entering the stable coin space, you you you guys come and you're like, "Hey, we can provide you the accounts. We can provide you the infrastructure to facilitate these stable coin transactions." Are the enterprises asking you or concerned at all about what chain they're being deployed on, or are they or are they not really that deep in the weeds? Like where h how involved are the enterprises? where do

they end up in the stack or do they just kind of trust you guys to to handle a lot of the infrastructure? >> I think it really depends on the on the use case, right? Because like one of the most popular use cases we're seeing and we're discussing right now with with a few customers is where you're a platform that um you know you have capital coming in and then you have to disperse it to either um you know consumers. It's like a you know payout platform for contractors or payroll. There's plenty of those where um it's there's a lot of demand on with those businesses to essentially verticalize um like a consumer neo bank within their own platform, right? So they can have floats stay in the system and so you have um you know um assets coming in and then you're able to disperse them using

stable coins. So stable coin wallets uh of essentially end uh recipients and then you as a platform uh that does the payouts fully control that flow end to end. Uh so from that perspective you're you're really agnostic to the chain itself like you're not um you know you don't have alignment to Ethereum or Tron or Salana. All you care about is can I deploy you know a million or two million accounts um for you know for reasonable price. Uh will you know this this whole infrastructure be secure? um will it be self-custodial in some cases like that's starting to come up where if you want to scale your enterprise uh to markets where you you can't get licenses or you essentially want to arbitrage the fact that self-custody allows your users to have wallets and essentially control their own keys. Um so you care much more

about those questions much less about um you know what what chain you're you're building on um as long as you know the chain kind of passes the threshold of being sufficiently decentralized being performant being secure and giving you sort of the cost and efficiency guarantees that you require as a large enterprise making those choices. Um so yeah but I think that's much more important than kind of thinking about interop and and different chain. >> Cool. Makes sense. Um I mean it certainly worked out for you guys. you got 15 billion in uh in stable coins that you're helping to secure. Um could you describe what the what the makeup of that 15 billion is? Maybe just some some metrics if you if you know any off the top of your head generally. I'm just curious how much stable coins like how how what is the split maybe enterprise

to retail? Is it all USDC or USDT? Is there sort of a makeup uh demographic that way? Geographical regions generally where do you find the 15 billion coming from? So just to clarify 15 billion is total assets secured. So that includes assets other than stable coins. Stable coins is two billion and 100 million. And so that is made up mostly of USDC. So 1.3 billion is USDC and then the rest is split across USDT, PIUSD. Um that includes BL and uh and some other stable coins that are coming to to Salana. Um I would say 90% of that is enterprises and then 10% of that is retail. Geography wise it's um I would say 50% um kind of

US or around US like the offshore ecosystem around US as well. So that includes BVI, Panama and essentially where a lot of the foundations reside. Um and then the rest is sort of split across uh we start to get more u demand from Latin America but then it's obviously Europe and parts of Asia. um that is pretty evenly split in in the in the remaining 50%. >> Very cool. Um you guys also have a partnership with Coinbase. All right. So, you're kind of like putting your tentacles out into some of these other ecosystems. Uh ho how has this partnership, it's been live for maybe two months or so, but you guys have, like you said, garnered over a billion dollars of USDC, and there's very tight relations between Circle and Coinbase.

So, h how has this partnership helped or how how do you think it will help in the future to continue the growth? >> Yeah, so the we're we're really happy to uh to be partners with with Coinbase. It's been it's been a few months already and we have a couple features coming up that um make it much clearer what uh what this partnership is actually about. It spans like for example we also heavily use USC right which um uh powers the euro accounts in altitude and gives you this full you know multiurrency experience at this point where you have a dollar account powered by USC you have a euro account powered by um your c there's a lot of uh defi things that are coming up and integrations that will allow you to you know earn yield and and it will very you feel very much uh you

know intuitive to any kind of traditional audience without really um um thinking too much about you know interacting with a blockchain And um there's also some things that we're excited around uh CBTC um which we think is is sort of the the best version of of Bitcoin um out there on Salana today and we have a few uh specifically Bitcoin or CBPC focused features coming up uh in the in the next few weeks. Um but I think from from our perspective we obviously are stable coin max and we would would love to have you know more stable coins out there but at the same time we also see that majority of our customers um do prefer to um to use USDC for payments like G was mentioning and I think there's kind of a lot of um there's kind of separation in in in in

in customers minds where there's a payment stable coin there's a stable coin that I I use to earn yield and I think that also is important from a perspective of like if these are real businesses like accounting matters and having a single stable coin that's both used for payments and storing your essentially cash balance and also being your investment account or like your earn account doesn't always work uh for reporting requirements and so actually majority of the like accountants we we talked to and CFO they actually prefer that those are two separate accounts and not you know a single checking savings account in one place um and so yeah I think so far we've been crying happy working with with Coinbase and actually you know the partnership with Coinbase doesn't entail any um kind of multi-chain aspect to it right it's like Coinbase is is very active in the Slan

ecosystem and um we we kind of love to see them supporting DeFi in different ways and and as I mentioned with CBDC as well. >> Very cool. Um guys man this has been an absolute pleasure. I don't have a ton ton more. I mean generally I think my my final question here is you know 15 billion and total assets secured. How do we how do we get this tound how do we get to trillions? Everyone's saying trillions. Let's get >> I'm gonna I'm gonna get my my quick viewpoint on this. Um, so we actually all get paid in USDC in stable coins at squats and we have like the whole time when I joined the company and actually like even though I was working in crypto before this like never got paid in USC, right? So it's funny I'm talking to people at foundations and different

companies and they don't get paid in stable coins yet. They talk about it every day. So one, I would say that squads is actually solving our own problems and that we actually like run payroll through stable coins and now we actually have a business account so other people can do things like that. So, we had a problem. We were doing it the tough way. Now, we actually solved our own problem. We're trying to expand that for others. But one thing I noticed was I got paid in stable wins. Initially, I was just offramping that to my traditional bank account. Um, because that's where my debit, my credit card is for all my bills are. Uh, but over time, I started seeing that I could earn like four or five% yield. And you start seeing those like payments come in each month. You're like, "Okay, this is kind

of nice." You know, like maybe I'll let this balance grow a little bit. Then, I'm somebody that likes to trade onchain assets. So, if I already have it in USC, it makes it super easy to do that trading, right? So, if you're somebody that doesn't do trading at all, I get it. Maybe you don't really care to get paid in USC, but for me, it's perfect. Now, with like our debit card, you can spend anywhere. Um, and those cards are only get better over time. Like right now in the US, they don't have points or most cards don't have points. If they do, it's like a token that might go to zero. Um, we don't have points, for example, but we will, and so will other people. And then you have like another reason to use your stable coins to spend. I think the more that you have to

do on chain, which is like one reason why I think Salana is so great, is sure you have stable coins, but you also have like internet capital markets in the sense that you can lend, borrow, trade, and and every time that like stocks come on chain, then it's available to everyone, right? Like you can go to Fuse, our consumer app, and the day that some project launch stocks, you could start doing that on Fuse. The more that that gets built out, the more reason you have to actually stay in those stable coins once you get paid in it. Um, and that to me just over time, I mean, maybe there will be a step change moment where everyone goes into stable coins. But I think it's once you start to see the benefits of it over time, just like I kind of have getting paid in it. Slowly

my balance has only gone up over time. I used to offer all of it and now I keep at least 50 70% on chain. So I think it's less of a step function change unless there's some COVID type event that kind of, you know, QR codes came out of nowhere all of a sudden. That could happen in the stable coin space as well. Um, but I think stable coins with banks and tokenized deposits, that could be part of it. But I think otherwise it's just really building really good products and that's what we're trying to do at squads because once you have the product and you're using it, you may not even care the stable coins are underneath it. But then you start seeing some benefits of it and your balance is just going to grow over time. >> Incredible. Yeah, I I that I think

that's a great way to put it. And you describe the incremental changes these ultimately add up and compound uh once people do start to see that four or five%. That's a lot more than the 04 or 5% that they get on their savings account. Now, it's funny just quick story. I I was sitting in a room. It was at some crypto conference. There was maybe 50 of us. It was like this brunch event and there was a payment uh company that was like, "Hey, who gets who here? We all work at crypto companies, but who works who gets paid in stable coins?" Our company also pays our employees in stable coins. I was the only one out of like 50 people there that raised my hand. And then I had to explain how we did it and it was, you know, back then it was like safe and I think we used

request finance and we did all these things. And so you're you're absolutely right. I mean, one by one, all these companies are going to get onboarded. Those are little step functions in and of themselves, but over time ultimately the these do really grow and they do add to the stable coin balance. Look, 3.7 trillion by uh you know, two years from now, we're we're this is all incremental, but it's going to be a lot of step changes that get us there. Guys, thank you so much. Steon, I'll give you the last word. Anything to add after after Garrett's rant and my story? Thanks for having us. Uh, if you're a business, go sign up to Altitude. We would love to show you what it means to bank on Salana and use stable coins to run your financial operations. If you're

an individual, Fuse Wallet is waiting for you. It's one click away. And we're always around if you have any feedback or any if you want to learn more about stable coins or how you can use them in real life. Um, Bing Gar. >> Love it. Thank you so much, guys. Absolute pleasure having you guys on. See you soon. >> And thanks, B. We'll see you next time. Bye. Beautiful. Yeah, we're going to go stand by here for a minute and then we're going to keep the show rolling, guys. Banger episode today. Another great conversation about stable coins on stabled up presented by Frack. Frack is one of the leading stable coins on the market and uh and man, we talk about trillions. Fra is going to get there.

They're going to help lead the charge. They're one of the issuing companies and they along with squads are helping to power the stable coin super cycle. Guys, we will be right back with our next guest, Iggy from Theo. What?

All right, there we are. Mr. Iggy from uh from Theo, welcome to the show. Chief Investment Officer at Theo. Iggy, welcome to the show, brother. We were just talking a little bit behind the stage about your time in Miami. Thank you so much. Yes. So, uh, people people think it was fun, but I was actually speaking at a I don't I don't know if I should say it boring because I don't want to like offend anybody, but at a very traditional trusty conference called ABS, asset back securization, which deals with, you know, when you take things that are not securities, uh, like like student loans and car loans and mortgages, and then you bundle them into securities, right? So often times in crypto we try to take securities and

then tokenize them you know make make something else out of them. In this case it's almost the the opposite. So there was a massive conference 7,000 people and there was one event focused on crypto and one event focused on AI. So I was talking to them about crypto really explaining the basics like why it's better to do things on blockchain than with mainframes and cobalt code that was written in the 1950s. Yeah, when you say it like that, it's really a no-brainer. 1950s code, we've come a long way since then. So, what are what are some of the roadblocks that we still have to face as an industry? Uh, is it really like an you know, we try to do an educational job here at the rollup, you know, talking to you, try to

bridge the gap between institutions, enterprises, and more crypto native people so that hopefully both sides become more educated. What what would you say are some of the obstacles? Is it really a knowledge gap that still exists to bringing more capital on chain or is there technical hurdles that we have to uh overcome? >> I think the technical hurdles have gotten largely overcome. So before joining Theo, I was a global co-head of Polygon Ventures. So we've you know over time and even before I joined invested in many many of these solutions. So the kind of you know what we do like the tokenization of real world assets fin you know in our case is financial assets but it could be other assets too. And you know people talked about it since there were papers from World Bank and

IMF and other big global banks uh private banks since 2015 16 that I was reading about how you need to rewire the global financial system on blockchain rails and that is still valid >> but at the time you didn't have the smart contracts were just really just starting so you didn't have uh fast blockchains you didn't have the entire infrastructure oracles I mean just everything that's built out now uh was not in place. Uh you didn't have uh crypto teams at these global institutions. So there was somebody who would write the paper and then move on to you know stuff. It was kind of an innovation teams at at best. Now uh you know twothirds of like trillion dollar global institutions because we we talked

to all of them. They have crypto team. They've been in place for several years and they've acquired political capital internally. Right? So they have the ear of the board and of the CEO. Uh and then these people have sort of found their footing. Uh and and these are like the main obviously like the thing that everybody mentions is the regulatory and legal environment in the US has has done a full 180 uh in recent times. Uh so you know there's still a lot of legislation to pass like all we had is stable coin bill that basically prohibited stable coins from giving yield to people. Uh kind of interesting. uh but there's still a lot to pot but but the the

zeitgeist and the fact that the lawsuits are getting dropped uh is completely different like I used to advise my portfolio companies uh for all the founders to be outside the US for 6 months out of a year now we're advising them get back in as soon as you can and you see a lot of projects actually getting physical office space often times in New York uh where where we're based uh ju just just to like really emphasize it pivot So, so and then and you know I've traveled to many different countries in the last few months and the rest of the world is following US leads. So there were a few jurisdictions that were always friendly to friendlyish to crypto like you know you got some some in the

Middle East, Singapore and stuff. uh but but now other countries that were kind of a along with the US uh on that they're they're also pivoting pivoting hard because they have to stay competitive with the US because US already has a lot of the the crypto talent and the founders and the vast majority of the venture capital in VC is US-based. So if the other countries don't mirror our policies then they will completely lose the lead on on crypto. So the whole world is uh is becoming more friendly.

>> Yeah, it's incredible to see how far we've come. Gary Gensler >> set the space back. So so far uh pushed all like you said there was a brain drain. The intellectual capital all fled the US. Like you said, you instructed your portfolio companies to leave the United States, spend six months out of the year outside of the country. Now you're telling them to come back as soon as they can to to ultimately build the connections that they can to to facilitate more of this business because now that business is happening inside of the US. Um and and so maybe you can tell us a little bit more about Theo. Tell us, you know, what what are you guys focused on? You're mentioning tokenization and RWAS. Now with all of this intellectual capital and all of this real capital, this financial

capital that is coalescing in the US, how are you leveraging your position in the US to ultimately grow and and and continue to bring these things on chain? >> Yeah. So uh just real quick, uh as a VC, I got to start with the framework. There were in in my view the three phases to RWA, right? So we're in the RWA space, real world assets. I hate this word, but that's what the industry calls it in in Shopify. RWA is actually risk weighted assets but we we'll leave that one. So there were kind of a three main phases. First is you take some weird thing like a building in Miami or dinosaur bones or some portfolio of invoices that you have no idea who is behind them and you put that on chain uh and basically stuff

that nobody else wants. So it's adverse selection as we call it and no wonder nobody bought it. Second phase uh was when the global institutions came in. That's when you had the you know the KKR with with Avalanche and and Polygon with with Hamilton Lane and others stepping in and uh and doing this first tokensization deal. That was a radical shift because suddenly you had really high quality assets, private equity funds, private credit funds, T bills uh and and this was the global institution. So, this was what paved the way for phase three because the problem with phase 2 is it was great to get this this blue chip brand names involved, but what they're doing is they're tokenizing

stuff and then nothing happens after. So, you put you put things on blockchain, you put this high quality assets, but then they're not composable. They don't connect with D5, they don't trade, nothing really happens. often times you could barely trade it with a a white list and it has to be at the minimum accredit investors often times QPS qualified purchases or even quibs qualified institutional buyers in some cases uh some of them huge minimums like a $5 million minimum in order to mint redeem so so basically they were on blockchain but that's what we call tokenization theater is when you sort of tokenize you announce TVL to issue a press release but then nothing happens

after that and everybody sort of forgets about it. So where the comes in is to go beyond issuance. So we pick up where you know we kind of as Isaac Newton said we we stand on the shoulders of giants the trillion dollar institution that tokenize things paved the way. Now, where we come in is is we're 100% focused on getting them to trade, connecting them to the onchain world, taking them to places where liquidity lives, uh, and making them composable with uh, DeFi, with this wonderful world of of DeFi and the the money Legos where it's permissionless and you can do anything you want and making accessible all around the world with no minimums, no unnecessary paperwork and uh, making

it super easy. Yeah, there's really there's components to to these infrastructure pieces, right? We've got this global financial system that is currently really spread out and it's very complex and it all lives off chain and now we're we're sort of taking piece by piece and putting it onchain. We start with stable coins as sort of the most basic fundamental building block. Then we have RWAS, I agree, I don't like the name as much. We have risk rated products and you know bundles of securities. We have CLOS. We have all all of these uh financial structured products that are available now onchain.

We're moving those on piece by piece and and so at a certain point we're going to have more onchain capital and and these two worlds will start to balance out. And what I'm hearing from also some traditional capital allocators is that it's becoming a risk to not be on chain. I'll repeat that it's becoming a risk to not be on chain. Meaning that before, you know, when you speak to these uh these people at ABS, uh they're they're really looking at blockchain as a risk to their capital. If I put even, you know, if I have a a few billion in assets under management, you know, even a percent or 2% of capital on these

chains poses a a significant risk to the capital base. And so they chose not to go on chain. Now with the liquidity, with the network effects that are are onchain via all this tokenization, it's becoming more of a risk to not be on chain. What what what would you say to someone who, you know, is maybe starting to dip their toes in the water? Maybe they have, you know, 1% 2%. Someone like take a Janice Henderson for example, right? They've got 400 billion, I believe, in assets under management, maybe more. But they've started to just take 1% or 2% and put it on chain. Now they have a CLLO product AAA and it's $400 million tokenized onchain.

Bidd from BlackRock is another one, right? Massive capital base. Small percentage of their capital lives on these tokenized products, but it still represents, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. What do you think is the catalyst to bring a higher percentage of the capital base on chain? Not just one to two% of Black Rockck or Janice Henderson, but 5, 10, 15, 20%. Yeah. So, so I do think it's it's is to make those assets useful on chain, right? So, part of the reason it doesn't grow because people look at what happened with this phase 2 type RWAS, it's like, well, it sits on chain where we can't do anything. We still have to go through all the usual web two and fivey type processes in order to to access this products to to for them to

change hands. And of course, you can't do DeFi. So, people will use something that is that is useful, right? That has utility. So adding utility to those tokens that's going to to increase the demand and and u the first step is is trading volume. So for example with us uh we were 150 million of TVL that just launched a couple of months ago and this is uh only our test product which is the the T bill fund which we did in partnership with Wellington and Standard Chartered. Both of these are 100 year old plus institutions probably more than way more than a 100 but uh ve very big and very very traditional. So uh this is you know this the risk-free rate so it's

not a particularly exciting thing and yet it uh we were able to get it to trade 8 to$15 million a day and some days 30 to 40 million a day. So in terms of velocity which is the trading volume divided by TVL we are probably one of the highest if not the highest RWA and velocity is growing so we're going to be launching uh other things tokenized gold tokenized equities obviously those things inherently have a much higher demand for for trading and volume so uh with that and also our TVL we have a kind of a visibility into a few hundred million already of additional TVL that will be slowly coming into Theo. So,

we're on track to be the number one RWA project by trading volume and that's really our northstar because once you're trading, you have accurate price discovery and then from there you can you can do defy, right? You can uh do so why why why do we use why do we tokenize things? So, you can use it as collateral on chain, you can lend it out, you can fractionalize it, you can have person it, which is something I hope we'll we'll get into. really the most exciting part. >> We we've only got a couple minutes left, but I do want to hit on this most exciting part like you're saying. Um, and so what you know, part of what you're saying is as we bring more on, there's more revenue, there's more uh potential for yield as a result of bringing these onchain. Can you can you

just wrap up by by describing what you see as the most exciting part of the tokenization movement? Yeah, I think the most exciting part is to take assets that already have a lot of liquidity in the in the chat world and then bring them a machine because that's something that's working already. So, for example, we're excited about tokenized gold. It's in the final stages and in fact uh our tokenized gold is going to have yield which is the first the first of its kind. So, a lot of the time you actually don't know it but even with TR five gold product there's a lot of slippage and obviously they're explicit asset management costs. So there is a hidden and explicit cost that you pay even in the US in order to own gold. And if you go outside the US, you

need to have really high minimum in order to to get gold efficiently. So putting gold on chain, making it low cost, no minimum is extremely efficient. And then of course once you have PERBs, so the thing that we're most excited is is perpetual swaps on chain. So right now RWA and PERPS are are are surging. uh there is a lot of new probexes that started. So it's not just we're very aligned with hyperlquid community but there is many others and they're all competing which is great for the industry. The volumes are growing and so we will first of all connect our RWAs to the perp world. will spin up those markets, make markets for them, provide the capital, and that's what drives the

liquidity. And once you have liquidity, that's the sea change that's going to take it, like you said, from 1% to 10% of the AUM for the big institutions. >> Beautiful. Um, it's funny you mentioned Hyperlid. We've got, uh, David, the CEO of Hyperlid Strategies, uh, coming on right after you. Uh, so he will be up here uh, he will be up here next. >> We're huge fans of Hyperlid. We're very big in the community. In fact, we're going to be launching our own HIPP3 exchange specifically focus on RWAS uh to have per uh on um have per rwas and then also enable uh no no install to hyper liquid but enable other forexis uh to to trade RWA using our technology.

>> Awesome. Awesome. Well, uh congrats on all the success so far Iggy. Thank you so much. uh you you've really been, you know, a game changer in tokenization. It's good to hear that you're going to be launching a uh a HIP 3 uh market. Uh we're gonna be uh talking a lot more about Hyperlid here coming right up. Thanks Iggy. >> Great. Thanks a lot. >> All right. All right. And uh without further ado, uh I hope our editor is ready in the back because we've got David in the room as well. He's going to be joining us on stage now. Um whenever he's ready, let's bring him up. uh because David Sheamus from Hyperlquid Strategies uh is going to be our next guest and I'm I'm very excited to chat about all the things that are going on

at Hyperlid. We've been big Hyperlid bulls. I think we we bought on day one or two. Um so I'm I'm really excited to uh to have David on the show. David, welcome. >> Thanks. How you doing? >> Doing well. Doing well. It's a it's a pleasure to have you. Um, like I was just saying, we've been uh big fans of Hyperlid for a long long time since it since it uh since it launched and uh as are you. You guys are uh the Hyperlid strategy um which is a publicly traded vehicle for Hype and uh there's really really exciting things happening on Hyperlquid. We just heard Iggy uh who is the CIO at Theo, their massive tokenization protocol is going to be launching a perpetuals market using HIPP 3. So tons of exciting things. David,

maybe that's a good place to start because there's so many things happening. Can you just pick out what is your most exciting thing uh that's happening on Hyperlid now? >> Well, the most exciting thing for me, of course, is is that our deal is going to close in November. We set a shareholder vote date for November 18th. We're going to close right after. So, I I can't help but be biased and say that's the most interesting thing uh for the moment for me. I, you know, more generally, I think I actually think the most interesting thing going on with Hyperlid right now, also I'm biased, but is kind of the most interesting thing going on in crypto in general, which is HIPP 3 and and these real world assets actually coming on.

Um, and I've been saying this for a while now, but now we're actually seeing it. You know, people for a long time have been saying, you know, real world assets are going to go on chain. And I think a lot of people say that without actually knowing what that really means. Like what does that actually mean? Are you are you trading spot? Are you going to change ownership? Like like how does that actually work? Is someone just going to hold a bunch of custody of assets? Um and here now it's actually happening, right? Like literally today you can go and trade the NASDAQ 100 on a HIP 3 market, you know, with trade XYZ.

>> Um I think over the next few days, I don't know when, but soon I think they're rolling out like Tesla and Nvidia. Um, and you can actually go do that with real money, with real counterparties, with real volume, uh, and real liquidity right now. And I think that's pretty that that's like a, you know, I am certain, you know, there are other examples of real assets on chain and actually working. >> But I don't think it's really happened to scale yet and I don't think it's it's it's doing what people have been hoping for and now it's actually happening. >> Yeah. And and those products that you're talking about, they're not accessible or really familiar to retail and a mass audience, right? These are CLOS's, you know, these are structured products that are yielding some percent and they're providing real yield and that's great.

But when it comes to what what people are familiar with, what they want to trade, it's happening on Hyperlquid. Uh, and it's happening in the form of tokenized stocks and this is complementing the portfolio of assets that are available on Hyperlid. Before we dig more into that, I I want to talk about the deal that is closing in November. you guys filed the S1 uh to raise up to1 billion dollars and I I'm just curious. Can you walk us through what that means? Um >> let me let me be precise because because the S1 is super important, but what we the money we've raised already is much more important. So over the summer, I think it was July 14th, we announced that we we've raised $888 million in a combination of both tokens and cash. I

think it was about 6535 in favor of tokens approximately. >> Those were that was hype that was deposited >> tokens hype hype tokens. Uh we've raised that money to create you know what is going to be by far the largest hype debt out there. Um the interesting thing, the different thing about our deal versus most deals people have seen out there is because a vast the majority of the money coming in or the capital coming in is coming in in a hype token and because a lot of those token holders care about taxes, I know I care about taxes. Um we've structured the deal in a way where when the investor gives us a hype token and we give them cash back, that transaction is not currently taxable. So

the taxes defer they don't they don't get away with the taxes but you know when they sell their shares one day that's when they would pay the tax um and their basis crosses uh transfers over and that's important to a lot of people especially the people that want to hold for a long time because they don't want to be hit with the tax today. In order to achieve that tax outcome we had to structure the deal where you actually have a signing and then a closing much longer after and in between you have to get a shareholder vote. So once you start talking about shareholder votes of the existing company we're investing in, you got to do an S4 with the SEC. It's got to go effective. You got to mail out uh the proxy materials to the investors and you actually have

to have the vote. So that turned out to be a fourmonth process. >> Okay. >> Uh I had I had, you know, black hair when this whole thing started. [laughter] Um but here we are. So that's happening next month. And it was really tax driven. So that's the $888 million we will have on November 19th. The S1 you're referring to is to raise additional capital after we close. >> Um and that'll be done sort of ATM like capital raises, you know, if and when we think the market is is uh is is worth doing.

>> Got it. So you've already done the paperwork. you filed the S1 so that when it makes sense to do so, you guys can do these ATM raises to raise more capital and and and use that to facilitate the the hype strategy. Uh but >> to be clear, let me just be really let me interrupt. Let me be really clear. Day one, we have 888 million of capital coming in. Of that about 300 million, a little less I think is cash, >> right, >> that we will be using to buy more hype once we close. >> Got it. And so uh uh the way that a lot of these digital asset treasury companies work is is they'll have sort of a reserve of cash. And so you've got a little less than 300 um in million that is coming in. How much of that 300

million are you still yet to be deposited and and used to be buying hype? >> So we haven't we haven't we don't we haven't used penny of that yet. Right. Because again that hasn't it hasn't come in yet. >> Right. Right. Right. But how much of it can you speak to how much you will be depositing versus how much you'll be holding in cash reserves? >> Uh we will likely use what I'd call the vast majority of that money >> to buy hype in the in the near future. >> Understood. um you know uh we we will keep I don't know two years give or take of cash available uh two years of operating expenses of cash available just so we can be very comfortable um with you know knowing you know we're not going to have any short-term cash needs

but generally speaking we're going to put all our money into the hype. >> Got it. Okay. So that's a little bit less but the vast majority of about 300 million going uh into hype. And so the the the counterfactual to this is is the hype that you have coming in in kind. It's hype tokens. Um these guys don't have to pay you know uh you talked about the tax situation and so this hype coming in. There's also a capital deployment strategy with respect to this hype. Hype you can stake it, you can deploy it, you can do all these things with it. What is the strategy to deploy the hype that you have coming in? You mentioned 65% of about 800 uh 8 >> 888 >> 888 million. Okay. 65% of that. So what is that's about 500 maybe 600 million or so maybe a little bit less.

>> Yeah it's 500 something you know by within you know a short period of time after we close we'll have 800 something million of hype uh give or take. Um so the short answer is day one we plan on staking um you know 100% of that hype. I think over time and when I say time I'm referring here to what I'd call traditional finance time not crypto time. In crypto time, you know, when someone says longterm, they mean like a week and a half. >> Um, you know, the the that Friday thing that happened three weeks ago.

>> Yeah. >> Uh, feels like it was about a thousand years ago. >> That's right. >> But it was three weeks ago. Less than three weeks ago. It was 20 days ago. Um, you know, over time we will be considering thoughtful ways to where we can think we can earn better than the staking yield on some all that. Uh, but we're going to do it in a pretty deliberate way. um you know the underlying hype token already has plenty of volatility. It's not like I'm sitting here saying this is you know this isn't volatile enough for me. >> Um so if we think we can earn you know what I' what I'd say you know an extra unit of yield for less than an extra unit of risk or how we want to think about risk versus return uh we will take that really seriously. Um, but we're

like we're not going to be rushed to do that in a day or a week or even a month and anything more than what I consider to be pretty conservative staking, >> right? Yeah, pretty vanilla staking. Um, and so when you're you're thinking about risk, will you be deploying your own hyperlquid validators or will you utilize the existing validator network? >> Yeah, day one we'll be using the the existing validator network. Uh, we will definitely consider over time having our own validator. I think it makes a lot of sense for a whole bunch of reasons. Mhm. >> Um but again that's not you know we we've probably dedicated 90% of our focus since we announced to just getting this thing closed.

>> Yeah. >> Um and you know once we're closed we'll have a lot more capacity to think about other ideas like that. But again like you know that's okay. I didn't want to have sit around and say here's a bunch of things we have to get done by November 18th and create false deadlines. It's it's there's no reason to have that kind of that kind of rush. >> Right. Absolutely. And when you're when you're steering a large ship, you want to make sure that you're doing it carefully and you don't run into any icebergs and even just, you know, making subtle turns like staking or buying using cash. These are still things that require a lot of thoughtfulness and and so I I I understand and I appreciate uh the thoughtfulness that you're putting in uh to this strategy. Um and so November 18th is the date that you've

mentioned. Uh in the meantime, we're we're seeing Hyperlid continue to build uh very meaningful technology and re recreate and really build the financial system on chain. Um when you're looking at HIP 3 and you're seeing the success of it, you know, what are what are some of the things that you think you mentioned that's really most exciting and I I would tend to agree and and so I'm curious how you're seeing this ecosystem develop. Will will we just continue to see the proliferation of hip 3 markets uh take take the world by storm? How do you think the strategy of going into hype? Can you just put together what the thesis for hyperlquid is at this point on a on a you know short mid long-term time horizon?

>> Yeah, look I think the thesis is um well I'll say it this way. When I first got involved with Hyperlid I saw it as an exchange that has its own L1 blockchain. the more I've learned about it and the more I've come to understand it's actually somewhat the opposite. It's an L1 blockchain that has an exchange. >> Yeah. >> Um and I think the the strategy for Hyperlquid is that's not going to be the only exchange have all these other HIP 3 builders and one day there'll be a HIP four and a HIP 5 probably but other people building their own per exchanges on whatever assets that they find interesting and where they think they can get liquidity. Um, and that will really compound on top of each other.

And as I said before, you know, we all talk about real assets going on chain. I think this is how it's going to happen. Uh, not 100% but a lot of it. Yeah. >> Um, when it comes to what's in the future, you know, the big elephant in the room, of course, is that per aren't traded in the United States. >> Um, I think, um, I have no inside information. I have no no special information. Uh but I think that uh that could certainly happen over time. This administration certainly seems a whole lot more interested um in sort of the different advancements in the crypto markets than other administrations have.

Um and I really do think pers are a good security uh for trading lots of assets. >> Um you know per you can do per with leverage, you can do per without leverage. Um, I would argue that, you know, pers with leverage to me are a much better retail product than options are. Um, and as we all know, like options, you know, options are a big percentage of what's traded out there right now. I don't know, I don't have the numbers off hand, but I'm pretty sure that a, you know, a large percentage of Robin Hood's revenue comes from options trading, you know, not, you know, equity spot trading. Yeah. And you know, like when you trade options, you got to think about expiration dates and different Greek letters and complicated premium calculations and all that sort

of stuff. And it's not easy. Per like, you know, here's the price and, you know, here's how much leverage I have and here's the price at which I I get liquidated out. It it's a whole lot simpler to understand. >> You're absolutely right. It is an extremely intuitive product as and options are not. You don't have to worry about Greeks. It's right there. it's familiar and it it it has a much narrower knowledge gap than something like options. Um and so you you speak about sort of the regulatory landscape how this might evolve with respect to per you know right now Binance has you know a per offering Coinbase has a per offering there are some regulatory uh moes at play you're seeing some of the dynamic shift CZ has gotten pardoned and so how do you expect centralized

exchanges to compete or other L1's offering per how do you see Hyperlid fitting into this dynamic and this landscape as regulation eventually opens up to per in the US. >> Yeah, look, I think um and again, I don't speak for Hyperlquid. I know them. I don't speak for them. Um my guess, my impression, my expectation is that they're going to be kind of the AWS of this. Um obviously like Binance is not going to use Hyperlquids, you know, back, you know, uh you know, systems for creating their perp exchange. But as per exchanges become more used in lots of different things for lots of different assets, you know, no one's going to sit there and want to build their own

exchange. You know, the the cost and the time of building an exchange and potentially building your own blockchain like that's that's just really hard. So to be able to just, you know, use use Hyperlid through HIP 3 is just so much easier and it allows people with a good idea and an understanding of how markets to work to really do it relatively quickly. And again, it's it's sort of the AWS of um you know, of these of these systems, being the backbone, being the back office uh and allowing other people's frontends. Like right now, uh I should know this off hand, but I don't.

I don't think on MetaMask if you pull up the app, you know, when you trade per MetaMask, I don't think anywhere it says, you know, brought to you by Hyperlid. >> Right. >> Right. But it and just like when you go to, you know, whatever website that's using AWS, it doesn't say brought to you by AWS. >> Right. >> It's the backbone. and AWS is making their money and they're happy and Hyperl making their money and they'll be happy and that that that to me is a really exciting business strategy. >> It certainly is. MetaMask has announced that they'll be using Hyperlid for PERS. Rabby is another wallet that's getting a lot more uh attention and utilization.

>> Phantom as well. Yeah. Yeah. Phantom use it >> and and right Phantom using Hyperlid for purp. And so as you were describing this this shifting landscape, it started to put some pieces together in my mind because I have a feeling, right, all these cryptonative these wallet platforms that have a a strong end user relationship, they're integrating hip, they're they're integrating per via Hyperlid in the back end, but I have a feeling there's a bigger pie at play here as regulation evolves to the point where more regulated agencies and and firms are able to get into the per space. That is where some of this really shines. It's not MetaMask and Rabby that we're talking about getting into per

Hyperlid in the back end. It's the traditional options players. It's the the City Banks, the Citadels. It's these guys, Goldman Sachs. Are they going to be building out their own exchange? Look, we we've seen M&A sort of evolve over the last few months, and we're seeing Mastercard go and acquire Zero Hash. Stripe is acquiring pay. This is happening in the payments world. It's not yet happening in the exchange world. Do you see a world where major Wall Street financial institutions could leverage Hyperlquid in the back for a regulated purpose exchange offering in the US?

>> Look, I think that'd be great and I can definitely see it. It won't be tomorrow because at the moment, you know, the regulations wouldn't allow it and these big banks aren't going to do something that's not, you know, clearly uh legal in the US. But, you know, just to just to pretend for a second we're in a world where it is and, you know, bank one and bank two are both thinking about doing a a per exchange and bank one decides to build their own, you know, I I cannot imagine how long that would take inside a bank, you know, it would take long for anybody, but inside a bank, which are not necessarily known for being the fastest when it comes to technological innovation, uh, versus bank two, who might say, you know what, I'm going to use Hyperlid, you know, they're going to

have it up a lot quicker. The other thing I like about how Hyperlid has done it is these things are permissionless, >> right? >> So, you know, like here in the traditional finance world, like we're all used to, oh, you're going to go use XYZ company for for some sort of backbone, you know, you go meet with them, you meet with their CEO, yeah, your lawyers start writing contracts, it takes time, you know, are you getting a better deal or a worse deal than the next guy? Like all that stuff just slows everything down and is like friction to getting from A to B. Hyperlid has done it permissionlessly and I don't think they care if you're going to be a great customer or a little tiny customer. You know, the deal's the deal and it's on the website and that's it. And you can

go talk to Jeff Yan, but he's not gonna I don't think he's going to give you any special deal. Maybe he'll be happy to see you, but it's not going to get you anywhere. And that, you know, it really levels the playing field in a lot of ways. And it it's just so simple. Yeah, David, I I I think you're gonna have a lot of fun in in the position that >> I'm already having fun. >> I love it. I love it because and and what makes me say that is, you know, you know, we we've had Ethereum DATs that come on. They and you know, they talk about their their capital allocation strategy. And you're right, it's it's staking, right? But then they talk, okay, well, what what comes after that?

Okay, we can use some DeFi. Hyperlid is at such a a a it's at a point where there's so much utility around the token and as we think more about what what HIP 3 is and how we can leverage it and how we how it's possible to deploy some of the hype I can understand and see a world where the the capital allocation strategy laid it out it's very simple it's very you know straightforward in the early days but as this industry evolves there's there's so many opportunities to to get really creative with some of the business opportunities that are at stake here where you're not just vanilla staking. You're you're I think it's 200,000 hype in order to get a ticker. We saw that play out during the

>> Oh, yeah. Get a ticker. Yeah. Yeah. But to be a HIP 3 builder, be a HIP 3, you know, uh market, you need you need 500,000 hype, >> right? And so, as a as a company that has a strong capital base and you're you're essentially serving as an ambassador to the hyperlquid ecosystem, you guys can go out and you can you have the hype in order to deploy some of these markets. you can go out and be the stewards in order to go and make some of these make some of these companies come over to hype and maybe convince them otherwise from building their own L1. Yeah. Look, the the simplest version of that um is let's you know, you were talking about a big bank building HIP 3.

Pick your name, but some, you know, highly creditworthy counterparty wants to do it. Uh they're figuring out their budget. They're sitting there saying, "Wait a second. I got to put up, you know, I got to come up with a half a million dollar hype. that's whatever 20 some odd million dollars, you know, we don't feel like doing that. You know, we could we could put our hype up for them, right? And again, if we're earning more than the than our staking yield and we're very comfortable the credit, that's that's the excitement here and I think that's exactly what you're saying. Um, and I think those opportunities I think we'll have lots of those opportunities. I think we'll have the ability to be picky as we should. Um, and again, you know, we're I'm a traditional finance guy. have been doing, you know, private equity investing in financial services for 25

years. Um, you know, we're not going to reach when it comes to these kind of opportunities for for yield because I think there's, you know, the underlying reason to do this because you're bullish on hype. Full stop. Um, getting additional yield beyond that is sort of the icing on the cake. It's not the cake itself. >> Right. Makes sense. Uh, David, how how much inspiration are you taking from the existing treasury companies that are out there? you know, hyperlquid strategy, Bitcoin strategy, micro strategy, right? The these guys have been around and sort of sort of, you know, we're pioneers in the space. Uh there's Ethereum DATs that are out there now. Do you like what they're doing when it comes to their capital strategy? How they're raising how they're raising capital or is is this really because Hyperlid is such a

is such a unique opportunity, there's really no other example or playbook that you're out that you're looking at out there? No, look, I would say uh you know, a high school and sorry, a middle school baseball coach I had years ago would said, you know, you got to look at different people, >> different people's swings, different people's pitches, and you gota you got to like find the things you like about some and then find the things you don't like about some and try to make that combination yours. And then in the end, that'll be you. Uh you won't be a little bit of this guy, a little bit of that guy. You'll be that'll be you. And I think uh there are definitely lots of things we're seeing that from some of these stats that we we will want to imitate and we think they're doing a

good job. I think there's some stuff less that I'm seeing and more that I'm hearing about that I think some of these guys are already being way too aggressive with their capital. Yeah, >> I've heard lots of stories, no particular names, but I've talked to a bunch of dealers that I think know >> that I think are talking about how a lot of these guys um are whether it's, you know, buying calls or selling puts or selling calls, like doing lots of sort of, you know, uh option strategies with their underlying tokens that I would worry a lot about. And I think they're doing it either to generate yield or to generate cash. Um, you know, that would worry me a lot. Look, if if I knew a bunch of cash was coming in and I liked the current price today and I thought

the the the option premium, the VA I was paying wasn't absurd, which a lot of these things are right now, of course, I'd look to buy some calls. >> But, you know, selling puts and selling calls to generate cash, um, that could be risky business. >> Yeah. >> You know, you sell a put, you know, the thing moves in the wrong direction. And look, these things are volatile, right? They're going to move around even if over time they go up. Um, you know, you could get hung out along the way and selling calls, you know, sounds great until the thing goes up a lot and you have to explain to your shareholders why. Well, you know, we know that the underlying token went up a lot, but we didn't really get the benefit of because we sold a bunch of calls. Yeah.

>> Like that's a that's a tough that's a tough discussion. >> Yeah. [laughter] Especially because they think that they are uh they're exposed to the underlying and if it goes up a lot, they expect a lot of money. Uh >> and and by the way, these investors, you know, at least a lot of them are pretty sophisticated. You know, if they want to sell calls, they can sell calls, right? Um you know, they don't have to sell calls. >> Yeah. Uh David, really appreciate you spending your time with us. Just got a couple more questions. Um >> Robin Hood recently listed Hype. How big of a deal is that? And how important is it to integrate Hype? I know we're bringing the traditional financial system onto Hype and Hyperlquid. How important is the other direction bringing hype to the existing financial markets? Look, I would say there are two

sides of my brain right now and there probably will be two sides of my brain on this for a while. One side of my brain wants to be the only place in the United States someone can get hype exposure. Uh when we started this, we were the only one uh where you can go. Uh so on one hand, scarcity value is great and that will increase our MNAV. Um the other side of my brain says, you know what, the more people the more avenues there are for people to buy hype who want to buy hype, the higher the underlying token will go and that's just good for everybody. It's good for the ecosystem. It's good for us because we own a lot of the token. So, as I said, I have two sides of my brain on here. And it depends on what what mood you catch

me in. I'll tell you whether I'm happy or sad about about Robin Hood. And you know, there's another story. I think 21 Shares announced they're doing an ETF in the United States. >> Yeah. >> You know, I have two sides of my brain, [laughter] >> right? >> Yeah. Makes sense. Um, okay. And the the last question I got for you, uh, man, looking ahead, 2026, we're in Q4 now. 2026 coming up. What was what would winning look like for Hyperlid in terms of adoption or market share? What are you looking for out of Hyperlquid in 2026? >> I guess I would say two things. Uh visav the the the system itself, you know, more people more people using it, you know, more places where pers become regulatory acceptable. obviously the the

big ones in the United States there and I think more people um you know more retail investors appreciating that perks are a good way to trade uh whatever asset that they're interested in. Uh I think that's that's one side. On the other side obviously it's more investors knowing what hyperlquid is understanding the sort of connection between the token and the buybacks and how it's sort of equity-like in a lot of ways. Um, you know, it is far from a household name right now. Um, even among crypto experts, um, lots of people have never heard of Hyperlquid. I think a lot more have heard about it now than back in May when I started taking this really seriously. Um, but even still, there are a lot of pe, you know, it's still it's

still breaking through and I think we're going to see that in the valuation of the token and we're going to see that in the usage. >> Yeah, very very well said. Uh, once someone really wraps their mind around Hyperlid, it really is a breakthrough. Uh so we anticipate that that more and more people will have these breakthroughs. David, thank you so much for coming on and and spending your time with us. Um no problem. Thanks for having me. >> Absolute pleasure and and would love to host you again uh sometime soon. Um maybe after uh maybe later in November, but you're going to have your hands full. So best of luck and uh god speed to your MNAV and uh we'll see you soon.

>> Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me. Cheers. Really appreciate it. Take care. >> Thank you. man. Absolute pleasure. David's the man. Um, all right. We're gonna keep things moving right along here, guys. Uh, I mean, we've been we've been hammering the drum on Hyperlid for a long, long time. Uh, so if you if you don't know by now, now you know. Um, our next guest is Naton from Starknet. Uh, Starknet, great friend of the show. These guys, we love having them on. Uh we're going to switch gears a little bit. You know, we've been talking about tokenization. Uh we've been talking about stable coins. We've been we've been, you know, talking about uh digital asset treasuries, hyperlquid

strategy, CEO. That's always a fun one. But now we've got Natan. This one we're going to turn up the technical dial a little bit. We're going to have some fun. Uh we're gonna we're going to chat about ZK. We're going to chat about Starknet and all the exciting things around Bitcoin, uh which is Starknet strategy these days. Guys, let's bring uh let's bring Natan up on the on the stage. There he is. Natan, welcome to the show, man. >> Thank you. Um so fun to be here. Um a huge fan. So yeah, I appreciate it and and yeah, excited.

>> Absolutely, brother. Well, it's a pleasure to have you on. Uh we're going to be talking about Bitcoin staking uh today. You know, I I had um Josh Twiheart from Zcash and uh uh CEO of Electriccoin yesterday and uh I I asked him, you know, uh there's a big Zcash Bitcoin kind of friction that's happening these days. And I asked him, you know, if if you know, uh Zcash has OPCAT, if OPCAT gets into Bitcoin, you know, are we going to see the Zcash Bitcoin? Are we going to see this turn up turn and go the other way back into Bitcoin? And he said, "No, no, no." So, you know, I know OPCAT generally bringing more and more Bitcoin onto Starknet is a really big important part

of the story. Give us an update on what is happening on Starknet these days. How are you guys looking when it comes to bringing more and more Bitcoin onto Starknet and uh and yeah, man, let's let's get into it. So first and foremost I want to say that um OPC um advocacy or the idea of having OPC part of the Bitcoin protocol is not a necessity is something that uh we think can empower Bitcoin but there's a lot of other ways we want to incorporate and make incorporate Bitcoin into Starnet and actually make Starnet a great place for Bitcoiners and also um help Bitcoin become something even better or stronger with with a larger I would say community keeping the same

values. The the most you know um evident example is our collaboration with Alpen. So this is kind of uh I say use um depending how how how close do you follow. So Alen are amazing technical team and we're working together to produce um a PTM bridge to start it. So we are not waiting to something that is up to the Bitcoin community to decide if they want to go through. We are not we don't want to push it. We think it's an very very interesting and and amazing direction that can happen and might take time. And in the meanwhile, we want to maximize trustlessness and maximize uh Bitcoin utility without compromising Bitcoin values and and BTM we think with strong technical teams like Alpen with

our ZK knowledge is is an amazing place you can go right here right now. Um yeah, I don't know if I answered the question, but totally alongside the Yeah, alongside these technical roots, we're also um working into making Bitcoin a part of Stoplet Protocol. This is Bitcoin staking. This is kind of um the thing I was working on for the last few months, I would say. Uh so more on that I think in in the next questions, I assume. >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, tell us more about it. I I'd love to know what you've been working on and generally what your focus is at Starknet.

Yeah, so I'm a product manager at Stark where um you know like the stocknet devs basically. Um I've been there for more than two years. Um I've been working on staking solely for the last I think year and a half since the proc since the protocol staking launched basically. So that's November. Um yeah so that's a year. So but as a product manager you work on stuff before they're live. So a year and a half almost of working on on staking and um up until now was just stock staking but recently a few like almost a month ago we launched Bitcoin staking which was I think a huge step forward for our ecosystem um putting Bitcoin as an asset is something very very important to us uh alongside the

Bitcoin values. So um yeah so that's that's my uh I would say story. I came from I very technical background that's um I would say very common at Stockore. So I I graduated math and physics and I'm a big nerd of math and physics and ZK in general. So that's I I I think no surprise for a lot of people coming from Starcore and yeah so that's that's the personal hobbies and stuff >> man. We could we could nerd out about a lot of that kind of stuff. uh quantum uh you know generally what we're seeing in the AI space uh man don't even get me started there's that comet that is uh supposedly going through our atmosphere right now it's crazy crazy >> yeah um cool man well we we'll keep this

one pretty focused on uh on on Bitcoin and and Bitcoin staking then um could you walk us through what the mechanism is these days right because you know as as we understand it there's a couple different flavors of Bitcoin staking out there now. We've had some Bitcoin rollups that are really trying to focus on this. Uh we've had them on the show before. Uh and and you know, until we see a really native way of doing uh uh covenants on Bitcoin, we're not going to fully unleash this, but you know, what what are what is the flavor of Bitcoin staking that's available on Starknet now? And and generally, why have you guys taken this approach?

>> Uh amazing. So currently what you can do in starknet is if you bring your bitcoin to stocknet and in a minute I'll explain what I mean by that you can stake it you can literally lock it and help um you can delegate it to whatever validator you want and in that way you're participating in the consensus protocol of staret. So that's the underlying idea. The same way you would do with star tokens. But as we all know, Bitcoin doesn't leave outside of Bitcoin in a clear way. I need to define it. I need to explain what I mean by that. And currently what I mean by that is we support several reputable rappers, Bitcoin rappers that are familiar. It's WBTC, Lombard BTC, TBTC, and Soul BTC.

They're all stakable assets at Starkore at Starknet. And you can if you hold any of these tokens on start, you can lock them the same way you would lock Stark delegate to a certain validator and participate in the uh consensus protocol. You'll earn stark as rewards. So that's not surprising. I I I'm not able to mint bitcoin. So the only thing I mint basically is stark rewards. There's also LSDs on top. You can participate it with uh getting a tokenized version of your stake position and you can participate in start and defy. So this is a bit different than I would say Babylon staking where your bitcoin stays on the bitcoin network but the connection between the stake uh bitcoin and the economy of the network

is is I would say slim or not as emphasized as in our case. So we are opting in for composibility basically and the support of our defa ecosystem and generally our ecosystem. >> We understand this is not suitable for all bitcoiners. Um to be frank, I don't need all Bitcoin to be staked on start. Um I need some I need some people who want to do it. And again, I I understand both choices. So the main reason we opt in for this is composibility and DeFi and having this TVL actually >> help and support our ecosystem and give utility to Bitcoin. Um yeah. So so that's the first step. I can go into like future steps and how how this uh actually connects to trustlessness and

bridging etc. >> Sure. Sure. Yeah. I I I'd love to hear about how Starknet and Bitcoin staking specifically can uh can can help empower Starknet to ultimately connect uh more of this economy on chain. So the idea is when you'll have a canonical bridge and when I mean canonical bridge I know there's a lot of uh different either L2s or companies they're saying that they have a canonical way of bridging Bitcoin but I want to say trust minimizing canonical uh uh version of Bitcoin. Um this is very important. We would want to migrate the stakeability to this canonical trust minimizing version and trust minimizing is is is putting a lot on it. So I would

say that it needs to be trust minimizing. I think it needs to be trustworthy. So it needs to be reputable companies building it and being audited and being fairly secure. And the last thing we're seeing a lot is there's a lot of work being done around taxation and regulation. So the implementation also should take in account into account these very very uh I would say real things that that affect people that hold Bitcoin and want to live their life with Bitcoin. So we are doing this. We are working with Alpen. We're working with Anchorage as you know a side note of of a huge you know custodian uh uh uh team that holds a lot of you know supports Bitcoin and believes in it. Um and we

want to merge these three directions together. So we started with I would say u defi oriented bitcoin staking version that is not suitable for all bitcoin holders. We know that. But we are also putting a lot of effort in building trust minimizing solutions to help or give access to Bitcoiners who want more utility through their Bitcoin um with without compromising Bitcoin values and by the end of it they will connect. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so you know a question that we come we come to on this show quite often uh when we're talking about institutional projects uh in enterprise products all of these generally we see tokenization as such this you know such a such a movement that's happening on chain we're bringing

all of this capital onchain um you know the the the natural question is well okay I'm getting this yield but where does the yield come from right so when I'm staking my bitcoin on starknet you know I I realize there's maybe some different venues but generally Where is the yield coming from? Is it coming from token emissions, right? Inflationary token emissions like we saw in 2021 or is it coming from real business that that generates revenue and these projects and businesses are passing that revenue back in the form of yield? Is it one or the other? Mixture of both or somewhere in the middle?

>> So that's a great question. So first and foremost, today it's token emissions. So it's similar to our staking program for stocks. It's not different. It's not a different kind of any yield. The inflation currently is at 1%. So, it's not insane inflation that we boost up and I think is not sustainable. It's lower than most protocols you see. I don't want to, you know, uh I would say tar anyone with feathers, but I think it's very very very uh um um responsible uh inflation.

>> Okay. in the upcoming uh evolution of the protocol, I think you'd see me and fees being more significant. So in the sense of you know the the the protocol itself and the the congestion in the protocol would give rise to more abilities to commodity to produce commodity on top of it. Currently it's based on in token emissions and specifically the the Bitcoin part of it is also not not very complicated. Basically, we allocated 25% of consensus product consensus power to Bitcoiners.

So, no matter how much Bitcoin there is in the system, the consensus power of Bitcoiners is 25%. This means they get a a significant chunk of potential rewards. So, either you know you have the power for 25% MV or 25% of token emissions. But there's no sole control of started by Bitcoiners. And this is also important. We think that the idea of proof of stake and specifically Starnet is not to be, you know, um something that people from Bitcoin control solely, but we want to bring them on board and and make Starnet um a platform for Bitcoiners to to to enjoy in that sense.

>> Yeah. Awesome. And so could you walk through what some of the steps you think are to ultimately uh bring this vision that you have connecting these chains? Could you just explain how we get from the current vanilla Bitcoin staking model that we have today with token emissions to this very vibrant uh very robust ecosystem of me and fees and real Bitcoin yield and interoperability trust you know trust minimized interop how do we get from point A to point B? So I want to say that we're working in parallel and with the reason I want to say it is there's already real Bitcoin yield on Starcket. It's not by staking.

You you have huge utilization for bitcoin in in lending protocols in starknet. This is for for if you go to a on ethereum you'll get sub like lower than 1% way lower than 1% for uh um um how do you say for putting WBTC in the protocol. So for supplying WBTC you won't get any money because nobody's borrowing WBTC. people are you know supplying WBTC to borrow against it but people are not supplying it no one is borrowing WBTC but it's not the case on stock economy you already see huge utilization for WBTC pools DBTC pools and the reason is not only Bitcoin

staking but the economy and trades that are possible either that mutual either pernet that make these opportunities good so if you have WBTC generally you can have native yield and when I native I don't mean like staking I mean you can have actual defy yield by supplying it as collateral on startet that is way bigger than other places so this traction and flyway is something that we're already working on like I said with bitcoin rappers on the other end if you have a any kind of canonical bridge trust minimizing token it should be treated the same if not with more I would say um um potential. So I I'll give you an

example. There's there's there's a potential of getting a trust minimizing uh um either PTM or something else type of token that is also by bridging it under some circumstances would not be considered as a text event. This is an amazing step forward of combining the three things that I said. So you'll have a trust minimizing bridge which when you put your m when you put your bitcoin there and getting a representative on starknet doesn't mean that you know you did anything you didn't you're not owing anyone anything and you can then use the same bitcoin um on stet to utilize either put it as collateral either stake it either it doesn't really matter um

yeah we can go into more technical details I would say that I always want to split between the things that we're working currently and sure that we're going to have to opcat where opcet and there's other basically po potential changes in the bitcoin protocol that I I don't think we should count on. I don't think it's respectful to count on them. So we're preparing to them. Sometimes we think they are for the better but it's a very very wide community um varied community and and it's not for me by any chance to dictate anything about it.

>> Okay. Yeah, it makes sense. You know, sometimes the the the dynamic of decision- making on Bitcoin is such a it's such a black box. Like it's so mysterious what how these changes are enacted because, you know, we've had a lot of these projects on the show. We've had a lot of people that come on and they say generally the consensus is yes, this would help Bitcoin, but it still is not implemented. What why I mean I we this will be my last question. I'm just curious why uh if it seems like there's consensus why why isn't uh how does it ultimately become implemented?

>> So I'll give you an I'll answer a question with the question apologies but >> it's okay >> let's let we already discussed like uh you said quantum before me so I'm I'm okay to say it a second time. So >> quantum [laughter] cryptography we know we know there's an issue with cryptography and bitcoin if you consider some possibilities of quantum computers and this is everybody is saying uh in in in a lot of different ways just you just need to agree upon a solution for all the 80% bitcoin that can be saved. You just need to agree about a solution and still the community like getting a concrete decision in such a decentralized community. Yeah,

>> it's literally decentralized from a lot of different layers from the technological layer, from the ownership layer. There's a tons of different decentralizations and mean, you know, small clicks and groups that I would say um keep each other from any kind of of of sole control that even something that is evident that is needed to some or like nobody would lose anything by implementing it basically um is still getting hard time to be implemented or getting focused. So like OPC is is much more controversial than saying um we just want to safeguard existing Bitcoin against a technology that might come to fruition.

>> That's that's very vanilla of saying and it's still not being implemented or being discussed uh yet. So I I don't know I I to be honest right I I've read uh block wars like I think a lot of people who listen to this uh podcast I still don't know exactly what are the steps for getting and I don't think there is a recipe for it >> right >> for like these are the steps to get something implemented um and and you know used or changed in the bit code protocol. Yeah, makes sense. It it adds to the mystique of the protocol itself and it's probably a feature not a bug, right? The the fact that it's difficult to make changes uh has led to its Lindy effect and made it uh so so uh sustainable and and the longevity of it

so far. So uh it it certainly seems like it's a feature, not a bug. Uh, Natal, when you're when you're kind of flushing out what the rest of these staking features looks like, you know, what do what do you think is the most important feature that you're currently working on um at Starknet? What do you think, you know, these L2s in general? There's a lot of the L2s, a lot of roll-ups, there's more coming on chain. You know, people are very excited about something like a mega eth, right? Like these different things. But I'm curious when you're when you're thinking about Starknet, what do you think is there anything holding Starknet back or what do you think is is the most important thing to focus on at Starknet to ultimately create more applications and more products that find product market fit and allow capital freely flow

between Bitcoin and Ethereum and the rest of the rollup ecosystem? Is there any anything that comes to mind? Um, so I think if you if you would ask me this like a year ago, I'd probably say something very very simple that I like. Yeah, we um but now I I think as as being [clears throat] a product manager in this ecosystem for for long enough and looking at success stories, I think it's hard work. I think it's looking down at every team, assessing if they're serious and helping them succeed in the most detailed way of of looking who is the who are the users, who are

retargeting to and to that extent I can say that PTC f and so what I'm answering basically is there's not um a single solution focus is the solution and when you're focused there's tons of hard work that actually accumulates and I think startnet is focusing and it becomes more and more focused. So it used to be the case that there weren't a lot of L2s and Starinet was basically saying hey we're doing a new language we're doing CK we're doing interrop we're doing you know tons of we're doing capac we're doing tons tons of different things because we don't know what L2s are going to be and right now we're saying something different we're saying listen we basically think that the difference between L2s and L1 is not is not the

major thing I don't think we are saying L2 that much I don't think it it what drives us I think what drives us basically is to enable and untap potential in blockchain uh ecosystems and bitcoin to be the most evident one and what we have in our arsenal to do this is super nerdy people and super hardworking people and this is why we want to focus on on bitcoin and specifically uh uh defi and you can see I think this focus coming to fruition so we have three out of the 10 uh uh top 10 per in all of crypto our starkware technology that's um Ajax extended extended our own stark net public

starknet spoken to extended yeah how are they doing >> so that amazing and and like one of the I think one of the most exciting success stories in general in blockchain but in our case and it's very close to heart so when you see something like that when you hear about something like focusry um which is an amazing app also on chain or starter because we build account obstruction way way early when nobody thought about it. Um so the idea of focus and hard work in my opinion are the only way. So I can't tell you like oh we need another standard um for you know interrupt bridging or if we'll go millisecond or 20 millisecond in block confirmation

this is the thing I don't think any of it I don't think there's any specific metric it depends if you're focused if you understand who are you focusing at as users and as clientele and I think we're getting this focus uh um more and more. Yeah, I I really like what you said about focus in general, which is that when you have focus, you're not you're not focused on one particular thing. You're you actually have a a lot of things that you're able to stay adaptable and focus on whatever is most important at that time. And so it's actually a much more diverse set of things that you're able to accomplish when you're just focused in general.

>> And you need and you need to to be able to say no. So I can tell you to some extent there's some interrupt um features there's some uh there's there are a lot of stuff you say no to and that's that's the idea of basically how to to get it. You need to be brave enough to say okay okay it's I cannot do everything. Um but everything I touches I see in a specific prism. So so it helps you understand you know what's what's better for your network and what's not. So the more focused we be uh I think the better we succeed because the people and the brains are there and the community I I have to say this one of the most amazing communities. I'm I'm about to go to to our teams benosirus for the dev connect and stuff and it's

it's the most fun ever being out there and meeting all the people. So that's uh yeah >> it's incredible. I mean, the energy, the vibes, it's it's so much fun, but it's also so constructive when people get together and they're able to exchange ideas at the speed of light being in the same room with one another. It's no longer constrained by our telegrams and our emails and this like we're actually able to move at such a quicker pace. What are you What are you most excited about all being Defconnect as well? I'm really looking forward to it. Uh what what what what are you what are you most excited for in Buenos?

So, I'm I'm um I'm biased, but I love the staking summit. So, it's it's going to be my third staking summit for staking rewards. So, shout out for staking rewards. They're an amazing team. Um I've been working on staking for enough time to be part of it. So, I'm I'm going to have two uh two panels in their conference and and the vibe there is just amazing. It's super professional and like you said uh ideas in the speed of light. That's how it feels back there. I heard about Babylon, you know, way early when it before it got big just from the staking rewards. Yeah. From their staking summit. So, I think they're amazing place for innovation and to hear about new ideas and the team itself the team themselves are are just super nice people. Love them all. So that's I'm really excited

about meeting them and and the I would say the entire environment of the staking summit and then connect actually I'm uh I just want to see it like I'm excited for Buenosirus and I'm excited I also have um oh I almost forgot we are going to have uh a huge stark event ourselves and I I have a talk in there so >> okay >> you should definitely come and talk yeah so so we'll touch base I think afterwards in telegram uh you know already D'vor and stuff and Karine they would they would share all the info Um and and and Buenosirus, man. I've never been to South South America. I'm I'm excited by by that. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. It'll be my first time in Buenosirus as well. Uh I've been to a couple places in South America, but this one this one feels different. This one feels very very exciting. Um and we're also we're also seeing a lot of projects really hit their stride. So, I'm very excited for this event uh that you guys are going to be hosting in Buenos Ares. Also, Ethereum conferences just have a different vibe. I went to Asia uh you know to token 2049 KBW Korean blockchain week Ethereum conferences man they just there there's a cryptonative feeling in the air when these builders get together and you're absolutely right this is the one where it feels like you can kind of discover those new projects very very early and so I imagine when it comes to

Starknet as a as a as a a rollup ecosystem you guys are potentially looking at oh what is that new project let me partner or what is that you So that this application idea, oh we should build this, right? And so cherrypicking these ideas so that you can ultimately bring them home to Starknet. >> I would say even more than that, the one of the most exciting thing of building a permissionless chain is you meet people that are building on your chain you didn't know existed and they're doing amazing work. So you come up with people and say, "Oh man, we think Stark is amazing. You you you never met them and they're just into it so badly and they're building amazing stuff." So, it's not only looking at other places, it's actually getting to know more about the ecosystem itself. And it's Yeah, I'm

very excited. >> Yeah. So am I. Natan, thank you so much, man, for coming on. It was an absolute pleasure. Uh very much looking forward to uh all the exciting things coming out of Bitcoin, coming out of Starknet, Bitcoin staking is continuing to accelerate and uh of of course excited for Dev Connect in Buenosares. >> Yeah, likewise. Uh see you there. >> Yeah. Yeah, sounds good. Thank you so much for coming on. We'll see you next time. We'll see you in Buenosar. >> Thank you. Yeah, it was amazing. Thank you. Cheers. >> All right. All right. All right. All right. Natan is the man. He uh he he's crushing it. Bitcoin staking, bringing Bitcoin to Ethereum, making

Bitcoin programmable. This is this is what we wanted. Uh it's no longer just uh a pet rock. Bitcoin is now able to be deployed into smart contracts and uh we can now get yield on Bitcoin. Very, very exciting. All right, let's see. We've got a bit of uh some we've got some time, which is exciting. Time is all we've got. Um before our next guest, who is uh coming from uh let's see, let's see. Let's see.

All right. I think we are gonna do a little bit of standby here. Um, let's do a little bit of standby. We're going to get organized. We're going to come back and uh we're going to bring you uh closer to sweet uh and talk about all the exciting things that they have coming on over there. Guys, we'll be right back. Don't go anywhere. See you in a few. Hey,

hey hey. Heat. Hey, heat. Hey, heat. Heat. Heat.

Hey hey hey. Hey,

hey hey. Heat. Heat. Hey hey hey.

Heat. Heat. Hey. Hey.

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Heat. Heat. All right. All right. Stephen McIntosh,

the uh the CIO at SUGG, that is the Swede digital asset treasury company. We've had several DATs. We had uh uh David from Hyperlquid Strategies on earlier. Tokenization is taking the world by storm, man. I mean, this is this is the new meta these days. We're we're bringing uh onchain finance to the public markets and uh we're really making it happen, man. Pleasure to uh welcome you to the show. >> Thank you. Great to be here. >> Absolutely. Well, um it's uh it's your first time on uh and we uh we haven't had a lot of representation from the SUI world. So, I'd love uh a little bit of an intro just to kick us off. We can keep it pretty concise and uh then we can we can dig in.

>> Yeah, sure. So, Suie is, you know, a really interesting kind of blockchain because um Ethereum, Salana, Avalanche are all account-based uh models, right? And SUI is an object-oriented model. Uh that came out of the team's background at Facebook. These engineers, the five founders were hand selected by Mark Zuckerberg to build a crypto network that would be rolled out to three billion people. That was the Libra project, right? They also worked on DM, the stable coin initiative. uh an interesting counterfactual had that business been allowed to flourish. Um I think it would have been the biggest uh business in crypto bigger than Tether, bigger than Coinbase with that distribution, right? Um luckily for me as an early venture investor in Miston Labs, the team that built Sooi um they left and they took a lot of their

innovations, specifically the move smart contract programming language that they devised at Facebook. The reason they built it is because they looked at C++, Java, Solidity, uh Salana's Rust implementation. Um, and they found it all wanting because of native security problems. Uh, they needed to understand how uh the codebases schema would treat intrinsic uh properties such as assets and value transfer. And they really built uh move to be uh secure by design and also scalable. And when you look at um the future of what's coming in web 3, I think one of the big uh unlocks is going to be a commerce. So the kind of intersection of AI and crypto for that to occur, we need a totally different

coordination model. And with sooie move, what you have is the ability to handle uh you know billions, trillions of transactions in parallel concurrently. And a good analogy to think through for you know your community or your listeners is that an accountbased model is like everyone settles through one till. So imagine Black Friday and everyone has to go through one till to process all those transactions. >> Scrambling those people. >> It it'd be crazy, right? And whereas with Sooie um every agent, every asset has its own till and they can happen in infinite parallel scale. That's what an object-oriented model unlocks. And for me personally, I previously um you know uh ran a artificial intelligence business uh which I sold to a New York Stock Exchange listed acquirer. I'm very deeply focused on high uh performance

engineering teams and what they can deliver. And when I first met the Mist and Labs founders in in PaloAlto, I was like wow this looks like an open AI or Google for web 3. And you know the the the throne for who is the Google uh of finance hasn't been taken yet. And with Suie, despite only being 2 years old, they've got record transaction growth, hugely growing TVL, and more importantly, growth in developers and wallets active on the network. I think that what we're about to see with Sooie is some really interesting uh new commerce um categories being created.

And you know, one thing I'll just kind of uh say is that the team haven't just built Sooie, right? They've built a composable and holistic stack that supports the canonical high throughput blockchain. They built Warus which is decentralized programmable storage. They built Seal which is uh key management and secrets management. They built um Nautilus for verified off-chain compute. And then they built something called ZK login which allows you to log in with your kind of Google single sign on credentials. Now that is equivalent to a GCP an AWS or an Azure which allowed the SAS industry to proliferate over the past 15 years. I think that sui is building something akin to the SAS stack but for web 3 and that's what will allow the unlock of aentic commerce.

>> I have a bunch of questions here about your capital allocation strategy for all this suite. I'd honestly rather keep going on this thread about agentic commerce because I think it continues to explore and really meet where we're seeing the capex cycle happen in the US in some of these AI stocks that is propelling a lot of the growth that is happening not just in in the traditional markets but also in uh digital assets and so I I also had I had the chance to sit down with Alex this the founder of Nansen uh who's building this platform this intelligence platform and and is starting to unleash a lot of the intelligence in the form of programmable finance uh when it comes to making these agents actually uh useful in making transactions and conducting some of this

some of this DeFi. So as you're thinking through what Sooie is available to do and what they can provide to the agentic uh economy, you know, I I I'm of the mind that uh everyone's going to have their own agents and they're going to be conducting uh transactions on our behalf. Now, is Sooie thinking about deploying applications that will provide endusers and consumers with their agents or are they more so thinking about the the infrastructure approach? Is Suie thinking more, hey, we want to connect all the agents that are out there, but we're not necessarily going to issue the agents for the end user.

>> Yeah. >> Well, let's take one example that kind of um has come to market in the past few weeks. Um Google DeepMind uh pencled this really uh important framework for how we could think about agentic payments called uh AP2, right? And they chose Sooie as a launch partner and they demonstrated in a pilot how Sooie could be used to facilitate an agent marketplace with transactions happening concurrently, right? And uh the that example is just the tip of the iceberg of what's to come. I think suie will be the coordination layer. Yeah, there might be agents that are developed from the ecosystem. You know, sooie is a is a network, right? And as I mentioned, it's

got all these kind of composable pieces of infrastructure that will allow for you to pass the trust boundary. You used the word programmable and that's the one I would focus on. Um, we were, you know, very lucky, I think, to, you know, um, be introduced to this kind of meta of high performance blockchains by Salana. they focused on a really interesting kind of uh proposition which is like engineering optimization at the hardware level. Sooie has the same the more uh machines you run at the validator set it scales linearly but what's interesting is that sooie is an object-oriented model and as I mentioned going back to that analogy of kind of like black Friday and every everyone having to settle through one till what sooie move and its object-oriented approach allows for is um concurrent processing of microtransactions and you know fast path

finality and fast path consensus and you know when you look at the uh reported numbers of chat GPT having 800 million weekly active users. Um you know just imagine you asked chat GPT to uh give you um 20% 30% yield from DeFi across salon or Ethereum and Suie. It'll come up with like three great solutions about how you can do it but it won't take that action for you. So crossing the rubric from intent to action is a hugely complex space and you need coordination. That's what Suie was built for. And as I say, you need to be able to make sure that those agents that can act independently and take economic actions u being economically empowered by stable

coins on your behalf can do so in a trustless way, can do so with authentication, with verifiability, with um uh you know um kind of uh uh kind of secrets management and encryption which are really important if you've got sensitive data. So all of those um those those those those feature sets have been delivered by all the products that the Mist and Labs team have built and I think we're just on the edge of an explosion of aentic commerce and SUI is the only blockchain that can handle that complexity of transaction state. Just imagine you know where we are right now um in terms of like the big kind of breakout use cases in crypto perhaps trading borrow lending stable coins. If we see agents proliferate, you know, the

the amount of transactions, the amount of state that is going to be emitted is like orders of magnitude more than we have today. Sooie was designed for exactly that purpose. It was invented at Facebook to handle, you know, the needs of three billion users. And the team carried that over with them when they built Sooie. And the Agentic um kind of uh payments um pilot that they delivered on with Google DeepMind is just the beginning of what's to come. Mhm. Yeah. It that's incredible and and you you very eloquently articulated the the distinction between LLMs and the intent that they can give us uh relative to the to the actually carrying that intent out and the execution of this intent. You know, that that is one distinction.

>> Um on on the other side, I I'm curious >> how we can separate what Wall Street high frequency trading a lot of this we I guess is the term algo trading, right? It's algorithmic, but it's not necessarily agentic. This is where I'm I'm I'm curious to just dig in a little bit deeper if we can make that distinction. There's a lot of these protocols that are being put out there. You mentioned a AI, AP2, uh X42, there's there's MCP. All of this is for conducting and coordinating between agents. Could you could you help us understand how and and actually maybe I can just frame this a little bit better which is that I believe sooie is going to coordinate across these standards.

Maybe you can fill in some of the details but x42 mcp are all possible on sooie. How do we how do we take algo trading and the intent model and and we really scale it to something agentic. >> Yeah I'll give you a good example like so my previous company was in natural language processing. Um so you know we had very large enterprise uh clients like in investment banks such as Deutsche Bank, you know, Mora, JP Morgan, right through to uh asset managers like Capital Group and Vanguard. And you know the the use cases that we were delivering on for those clients were essentially in um human communications in the front, middle and back office. Think Bloomberg chats, think emails. And what we would be doing is dynamically converting unstructured communications into structured machine

readable data that was available in a JSON uh format by the API that could be consumed downstream by broader parts of the IT real estate such as Salesforce Service Now and event stream and CFKA robotic process automation etc. But to to kind of configure those intents to those actions was a lot of software, you know, you had to kind of like build API routes, you had to um make sure they were safe, they were performant. There's a lot of like engineering services that goes around making that kind of value chain come to life. Now in the agentic web, we actually want to like pass through uh all of these different bespoke APIs. you know, we want to make sure that you go from that intent to an action and those agents can be

economically empowered and independent with agency to go and, you know, do swaps, do the basis trade, um, do like a loop trade on Pendle, move over here, move over there. That that's coordination, but most importantly, you're passing the tr, you know, you're passing the trust boundary. So, how do you get verification? How do you get attestation about what those agents are doing? Well, that's where you start to use something like Nautilus. That's where you start to view something like seal which are these kind of core pillars of the sooie stack that the team have built. you know, it's not just having a blockchain um that's high performance. That's that's that's, you know, that that that's obviously extremely important, but you need all these other kind of uh products to come together um to make sure that that agent

can act in a way that's safeguarded, that's not going to go off the rails, that is um verifiable, that you can see um you know, you have recall on what it's doing. Like that's really important. you know, I don't think it's going to make sense just to have, you know, CH EPT that has like its kind of preferred API partners and that's the future of the agentic web. I mean, come on, we're living in an open internet. That can't be the the future. >> Yeah. If that's the future, I don't want to live in that. And so, >> exactly. >> You and I and Sooie, we're all building this uh this future that that we want to see, we want to be a part of. I'll just toss out some facts here. Uh Sue's TVL surged past 2.16 billion in October. Um, let's see what else. What else? $50

million of buybacks are underway. Caner Fitzgerald's uh bullcase sees SUG G at $49. Uh, you don't have to comment on all this. Sweet G's Treasury hit 101 million plus. Suie, the the question I want to ask you is what is the the capital allocation strategy when you see all of these opportunities? You mentioned several tools and applications that are available on Sooie. generally we're powering the agentic economy as a capital allocator. How are you thinking through some of these strategies from a riskreward perspective so that you can ultimately you know optimize for what sooie has to offer. So the first thing I would say is that look rightly or wrongly you know some um you know market participants saw the DAT phenomenon as a

as a trade right we we never saw that we saw it as the opportunity to build the Sooie bank that's what we told to our investors that's what we have told to the community um and what that means is that we are going to be a very powerful economic actor on the network but more importantly on Wall Street we're going to bridge latent demand from institutional investors that have been throttled by the previous regime the previous administration and getting access to crypto. And in many respects, you know, the the role of a astute and dynamic and um you know, experienced management team is to uh be a conduit between you know that latent demand that capital and crypto. In our case, it's Suie because we have a huge bull case

that Sooie can be the fastest horse in the race. We think it could easily eclipse the market cap of Salana. We think it could be the go-to developer platform, the go-to agentic web platform. So we have a very kind of convicted interest in the team, the technology, the founders. But you know, as a business, as a as as a as the CIO of Sue G, what I've got to do is also meet investors where they are. Awareness on Wall Street about what these high performance blockchains uh do and what they are is still pretty limited. Let's be honest. Maybe they've heard of Ethereum now through Tom Lee and they're getting warmed up to Bitcoin over the past year or two through Sailor, but you know, Salana, Sooie, that's still kind of hyperl. It's still new territory. And you know my job is to kind of educate to

talk about the incredible background of this team to talk about the incredible growth for statistics you just mentioned but more importantly to actually build infrastructure. So as Sue G we announced on uh stage in token 2049 um that we have done a deal with Athena with Guy Young and also with the Suie Foundation to issue stable coins natively on Sooie. So we're white labeling the Athena engine. Um we are issuing two new stable coins which is SUI USDE and USDI which are genius compliance. And what's great about uh the the proposal is that 10% of the fees go to to Athena but 90% come back to SUG and SUI to buy back tokens in the market. So if you're faced with in the future between using let's call it uh SUISD which you know has all of

that return and the yield and the fees back into the SUI ecosystem or USDC where all of that uh revenue and that yield and those fees go out. What would you choose? Right? And more importantly for our shareholders and for Wall Street, you know, right now you can only buy a few equities that give you stable coin exposure exposure. You can buy circle, you can buy uh Robin Hood, you can buy Coinbase and now you can buy SUG because we are actually issuing stable coins. We're building infrastructure. Going forward, we're going to be uh introducing to the market some very interesting and very innovative DeFi strategies where we are kingmaking protocols. We're using our balance sheet to drive liquidity, to drive lending.

Um, you know, the business that we did the pipe into was a non-bank financial lender. So, that's in our DNA as an operating team. We've got huge ambitions and I think we are like the most innovative um kind of data on the market right now. Uh, I think that yes, we're a young network in Sooie. We don't we're not as mature as Athena uh sorry, as Ethereum, but we're we're getting there. All the metrics are up and to the right. And as people become aware of what Suie G and Sooie Foundation together are creating here, it's a very value accreative story for our shareholders and for the whole community. >> It it certainly is incredible summary of both Suie as well as uh Suie G. Stephen Macintosh. Thank you so much. I'm glad we made this happen and I would love to love to pick up the chat once we see the

Agentic economy come to fruition. >> You're welcome. Thanks for having me. >> Thank you. >> All right, guys. Banger, banger stream. Glad uh Stephen was able to uh to come on board and uh and join us for a great segment to wrap up the show. Guys, we're going to put a ribbon on it. That was another incredible incredible episode of Rollup TV. I think we've been live for about three and a half hours. We talked about stable coins. We talked about hyperlquid, hyperlquid strategies, talked sui, sui g and everything that's happening in the agentic economy as well as everything happening in Bitcoin 5, Bitcoin staking and ZK with our friend Natan David Stephen Garrett and Steppen. Guys, thank you so much for

joining today and thank you to all of you watching at home. Thank you for tuning in. We will see you next time on Rollup TV. Don't miss it. Same here. Same time tomorrow. Peace. [music]