Rollup TV: Stabled Up EP 3, YieldBasis Sale, Unchained NewToken

Transcript

[Music] Heat. [Music] Heat.

[Music] Heat. Heat. Heat. [Applause] [Music] Heat.

[Music] Heat up here. [Music] Hey,

hey hey. [Applause] [Music] Welcome back to RollUp TV stabled up episode number three, yield basis sale with Michael from Curve. We got Laura Shin joining us today as well, guys.

It's going to be a great stream. Happy Q4, baby. Happy Q4, Leo. Let's get some tunes playing. Let's get that synth wave playing Leo. I want to hear that synth wave, my boy. The vibes are up. Uh, it's a good day to be to be having a good day here in Twitter land. It is 8:42 a.m. here in Florida. And yeah, uh I think uh I think if you're watching this from token 2049, you're you probably had a pretty good day considering all this shenanigans that have gone on. Leo, I think my title is a little bit messed up. All right, there we go. Um and yeah, guys, so

stoked to get into this today. We've got uh Michael from Curve and Laura Shin talking all things what they're doing. yield basis has absolutely blown up. Had a massive sale. So, shout out to them. It's pretty exciting. Um, and yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing from her. And I'm also just looking forward to hearing from the general team. So, guys, I'm going to pull my screen up. We'll do a little screen share. Um, and yeah, we'll get into it. So, um, I think our first guest is going to be Michael. He'll be here shortly. And yeah, [Music] so let me go ahead and just go here.

Screen up and we'll push it live and we'll go on the timer. Let's do it. [Music] Don't you save me from my s. We got the tunes playing. Nice. Nice. Nice. Nice. Well, we got another day with no Robbie, guys. What are we going to do? What are we going to do?

Another day with no Robbie. Vibes are down. Vibes are down. already. What's going on? Look at this. [Music] Wow.

bro. This is pretty sick. I didn't even know BFX was still going. All right.

Well, here we go with some cally stuff. This tree is pretty crazy. Bitcoin is is a is insurance against fiat. Zcash is insurance against Bitcoin. That's pretty uh trippy naval quote coming in, I would say. Okay okay okay okay okay.

Here we go. Little Laura Shinpod. Going to have her on. Pretty stoked on that. This is funny, actually, cuz like it's true. This is obviously funny, too, because this guy called it. I wonder where there's like the token. Here we go. Amanda in between the dats. All of the people. This is This is This should be This is exciting. This good vibes.

I bet this was a great panel. Oh my gosh, people are getting smoked on plasma. Wow. Wow. Smoked on plasma.

Damn. That's not great. That's not great for the program, is it? Is it now? Um, wow. Okay. So guys, we have heal bases on today. I got to pull up Legion to figure out exactly what they have accomplished in terms of their total uh sale. I'm trying to figure out if we got any allocation

as well. I think we did. Um, but I can't. The website's being super slow right now cuz I think the sale is about to start in like or yeah, it's about to start in a bit in like an hour or so. So, that's going to be interesting for sure to kind of see how that plays out. Um, and yeah, we have Michael on today, so we're going to find out uh what's going on. In fact, what is even going on from their personal or from their comm's account?

Okay, so see you in two and a half hours at 7:30. So that's basically at 10:00 a.m. It's pretty freaking impressive, guys. I

bet it does really well. Hope you guys were able to get in. Hope you guys were able to get in. Oh, this is going to be cool. Here we go. Yeah.

There we go. Should be sec. Should be good. Now I got levels. Dude, Sam is using my [ __ ] Dude, he's using it.

Yes. Yes. Yes. That's what Jeremy said. Yes. Yes. Yes. I love it. Getting zinned up. Oh, look who decided to show up this morning. Hope we got a tweet out.

Yeah. Hey, don't you worry about it, man. Bro, dude, just figure it out, man. I'm on the show.

Like, come on, dude. I like it.

Thank you. Let me just pull up the

pull up a different part of the ship to talk here. Great channel. Thanks. Thank you. Mine rug. Legion sale shouldn't be cancelceled because Kraken is not accessible in India. India has a user base. A little airdrop to all unselected Legion participants would be a move.

Look dude, I agree with you. Alpha ETH Sahara, but the likelihood of that happening, I don't see it happening. I'm sorry, but that's it. So, I don't really think that they're going to do anything for anyone. If you got if you didn't get selected, you're going to be in the first come, first serve, and if not, then you're out. So, I think that's more like what the reality probably is, unfortunately. Unfortunately. So yeah, I'm going pull this out of here.

Oh my god, this guy hates plasma, dude. So annoying. I'll be good.

So what? We're just [ __ ] on Salana right now. Is that what we're doing? Wow. Okay. I mean, look, I agree, buddy. Um, but Salana has all attraction. The stable chains aren't even live yet. So, I think uh there's like it's very easy to like hypothesize as to what's coming. Um, but uh and let's go. All right, guys. We got Michael from uh Yield Bases in the back. We will be uh cutting off the screen now. We're

going to get to the juicy part of the segments guys. Thanks for vibing with us in the beginning here. Um, actually, hold on. Let me just read this. Uh, it's it's all good. Uh, we'll come back to this tweet from Jason Choy. I'll mark it to talk about token 249 sentiment. Um, all right guys, we're gonna be right back and then we're going to roll the uh we're going to roll into Michael from Curve. Quickly, why you bullish on Plasma Ochre and not Kea? I'm bullish on Plasma because they're live. Kea had some mainet issues. Still bullish on Kea. I think that they're going to come on the show. Sign up to Kraken two days ago.

Still waiting on KYC results. Sorry to hear that. I think they take a long time to compare to other exchanges. Brock Lee.Base. I agree. I think that is the reality. That's That's all good though. Um, all right guys, we'll be right back and then we're going to get Michael up in the show. BRB. Good morning.

[Music] Good morning. [Music] All right, guys. Welcome back to this

episode 3 of Stabled Up. I am here with Michael, the former co-founder or still co-founder of Curve, current uh founder of Yield Basis, I would say founder of Curve and the founder of DeFi along with Andre Cron uh Kane and others. Um today's stable up show is of course brought to you by FRA powered by FRA one of the leading stable coin providers in all of crypto with FRA with FRA still their chain FRA net coming up for the stable coin wars as well as the general work that they've been doing in the White House. Shout out to Farax. Shout out to Michael. Thanks for being here. Michael, I gotta ask you. I got to start off this conversation. Man, what has the last 48 hours been like? We are over subscribed

by a matter of like 50 times for what you guys were trying to raise for. Um, it's been an insane week. What is your reflections on the amount of demand that you guys saw for the yield basis launch? Yeah, well that that looks quite insane. I I wouldn't say it reflects into um into too much um how to say um I'm I'm uh well um it's it's really surprising to see I would say right but um but yeah it's doesn't reflect into too much stress on my side I think it's a

little it was a little bit more stressful to uh to actually get the first uh deposits going because you well and um I'm very glad that we started small because it's uh there were all sorts of things which um well um didn't go exactly as uh I thought. So deposits started half an hour later than anticipated. Um so but uh but yeah so far so good and we uh looked at what's going on and uh um created some uh vote at curve to make sure that deposits uh will I would say

go smoother uh when we raise uh the cap for them again. And actually this is kind of something which is um I would say where it probably should be a little bit more stressful than watching the Legion thing, but Legion is is really like well how to say. Um, I think we had um some sort of nonsense season in crypto mostly with meme coins and stuff. Not to say, well, I wouldn't say that meme coins are always useless, but I think uh most in in that season

were right. Um so well maybe about 100% of them and I think uh people kind of got a little bit of tired um from uh pure speculation. So they wanted to see something real and I think we are seeing u real projects coming up. So yield basis is definitely one of them. Yeah, I mean I think there is demand for that fundamental type of investing if you will or at least understanding that there's some some real backing behind the project and I think that's what you

know you guys have. It it's been a crazy week. Andre Cronier announced this $200 million raise with this new you know tokconomics thing. You know you guys Michael have came out with this huge um kind of over subscribe round. talk to us about the Kraken Legion yield basis collab. Right. So at you know in about one hour we're going live on Kraken for the first Kraken launch. I think it it was possible to guess because when we just opened first deposits um the well the first the initial cap for deposits was very small like 1 million essentially. Well, 1 million

per call, so it's like three millions. And that was failed in I don't know half a minute when uh at least when it appeared in UI. And we had someone figuring out how to deposit before it appeared in UI. So, and I think uh we see pretty much the same in Legion uh but with uh like well over a little bit longer time. Yeah. So, how did you come to make the partnership with Kraken? Like, you know, they had this new launch and they chose you guys. What? How did you Yeah. So, uh yeah, so we didn't actually originally plan to do it, but um we thought well maybe well Kraken is a very

legitimate brand of course and um and they are essentially launching this uh Legion thing. So it would be uh probably interesting to be the first project uh in in their um like in in the sequence of projects they will be launching. So maybe that uh creates a good um a good awareness essentially and u I think it did and I think yeah I think it works.

Yeah. All right. Well, Michael, I don't want to get too deep into just the actual sale part of things because I think that's just a small part of what you guys are doing and looking to accomplish. Um, maybe what what people would like to hear about is, you know, kind of the overarching picture of what yield basis is. And then I think the main question is just like why do you need a token? You know, like, okay, we're doing this big sale. Maybe you could, you know, walk us through the yield basis, you know, strategy and vision here, right? and then loop us into what people when people are investing or you know allocating to this taking their own not financial advice here taking their own risk to you know invest what what is the value that that they're

going to get from this yield basis token um you know how does it fit into this grander picture maybe let's start with with the updated vision it's been a couple months since we last spoke and uh you know how does how does the token tie in right yeah so uh yield basis uh earns yield from essentially Bitcoin and maybe other cryptocurrencies volatility uh by removing impermanent loss in AMM. So it actually will be able to earn yield from fees um without well without being affected to the price fluctuations. So that's great.

Um, of course, if you loan crypto, um, and, uh, in principle, it can work without a token in principle. And I even had this idea before I started it. What if I make just a traditional company which runs essentially an AMM and um, makes money on it and that's about all it, right? So, that of course could work. Uh but I think if um well um I realize that this thing should benefit uh curve a lot as well, right? And um and I guess it would be really good to

to grow it pretty quickly. And if you want to grow it quickly, you want a token and uh you want of course this token to be connected to all the token economics and value capturing mechanisms and um I think u tokens are very good for bootstrapping communities but you have to have economics actually working to have uh long-term success of any token I think.

Of course. So uh and um also I did want to check uh new ideas about um how to well how to build sustainable token economics. Um so I think maybe many people are familiar with VE tokconomics which was uh I think uh I created it for curve and then it was adopted by many many more projects. So it's um I think um good examples today would be Pendle um Ira drrome and so on. So they uh use uh VE tokconomics in um different forms.

So it's not kind of all the same flavor but idea is the same. When you vote, your voting power is proportional not only to tokens but also to time and your earning power like the power to earn fees from the system is also proportional to uh not just token amount you locked but also time before unlock essentially and having this time component appears to be very very good because like in curve I uh saw that Um the revenues which are earned by people who lock tokens are essentially well not

revenues I would say um the speed with which tokens are removed from circulating supply is um three times faster than buyback and burn. Right? Well, and in principle, buyback would have the same speed as buyback and burn. But buy back and burn is strictly better for everyone than just buy back because if someone buys tokens back, then they are uh able to sell them later and if they buy back and burn, they are not able to sell them later. And here it's lock. So people in order to participate in the system and earn fees, people lock the token. And it appears that they lock tokens

uh on average with the speed three times faster than buyback and burn. And they don't tend to unlock, they extend the locks to continue this process. Um and that's that's interesting. In principle sometime like after many many years maybe decades uh the speed of lock in tokens I think should be become equal to speed of buyback and burn maybe but I think initially uh it removes tokens from circulating circulation faster but I don't know it's just a hypothesis nobody uh really studied that that deeply because it

didn't exist and um yeah um and I just decided to do some modifications to this um to this model. I think one of the most important modifications is not about the locking itself but about token distribution. So it's applicable to any protocol which distributes tokens for participation. And basically uh one thing I I like the biggest small thing I did here is I've split between users who want to earn tokens and users who want to earn a real yield. So you can you can choose what to earn tokens or real yield but not both at the same time. It makes

contracts a little bit more complicated, but it makes uh it a little bit easier for users because like if you want real yield, you don't really have to care about um tokens when you integrate that you can use it as collateral and so on, right? Uh so and you like today many people farm protocols and dump tokens because they want to earn essentially real yield. Here they don't have to do it. They just uh choose to earn real yield and market forces will make it will make the yields in tokens and real

yield probably equal. All right. So um well at least that's what I think um we'll see how it works but that's the the idea and I think it can be applied well outside yield basis so more governance experiments I just got some quick uh thoughts from people in the in the community yes Jana that that Ether scan link is correct there is $182 million of USDC in the contract contract still with some yield basis ERC20s in there. So that is in there. I Ash King says I didn't see anyone who got allocation. I mean

Michael I think yield basis ERC20s are not yet out. Oh sorry there's a uh okay so maybe yeah maybe guys just be careful if if you're seeing any yield basis tokens out there. Um definitely just be careful. Don't I've seen a few and they are not not real. Okay. So, just be guys be careful out there. Um, yeah, Kraken and Legion. Yeah it's somebody's, you know, Maggie's saying that the uh, you know, that was hard to navigate some of the websites because it was down. There was so much traffic, guys.

Yeah. Yeah. Like I think people were so interested that it it actually crashed. Yeah, I saw YouTube an announcement. So, sorry about that, Maggie. And then Ash King, I didn't see anyone who got an allocation. I mean, there was $5 million available for 200 million of demand, so you know, hard decisions were made. Anyway, uh Michael, back to you. Um when we're thinking about yield basis in this context of what I'm considering the stable coin super cycle, right, where we're just we are seeing the influx of stable coins coming into the market. Uh, Secretary uh, Treasury Secretary uh, Bessant has alluded to wanting to get to $3 trillion of stable coins by 2028 on

chain. Yesterday, Stripe came out and said that they have they're launching a new issuance platform, open issuance, to allow anyone, you know, with some sort of credit credibility and credentials to launch stable coins. How do you view yield basis and the product around Bitcoin and kind of solving impermanent loss in the lens of the stable coin adoption that's happening? How do these two kind of worlds collide and how do you see yield basis uh you know being a beneficiary of the stable coin adoption that's happening?

Right. Well, I would say beneficiary of stable coin adoption is probably curve, right? Um, and of course more stable coins is better. Uh, but also uh curiously enough, if you have more stable coins, then you can uh I would say make um CRVUSD more stable. um you diversify what SRVUSD stabilizes against and uh it will have more roots to uh to be exchanged to and stable coin survey USD powers um yield bases. Well, in principle it

could be anything, but I think Serv USD is probably the most stable stable coin which is still not the centralized stable coin but decentralized and it's it's very convenient to uh power yield basis and curve will of course benefit from that. Uh so I think that benefits of these this stable coin adoption are probably more about curve than about yield basis. But who knows? Um, one one thing, well, you can call it conspiracy theory, right? So, um, when you have more stable coins and more TVL sitting in stable

coins, I don't know, trillions, right? Sitting in stable coins on um on chain and backed by T bills or whatever, right? That's um um well that's kind of kind of a little bit like a representative of uh inflation or maybe for some uh for some people it will look this way. So the more stable coins you have, the more you have the urge to hedge away from US dollar, to crypto, maybe to Bitcoin, maybe to gold, maybe to Ethereum, uh who knows? But it's possible that yield

basis is uh applicable to any of these assets. So anyway, uh I think stable coin adoption means that we might have some volatility in crypto prices and that's good. Yeah. Yeah. And so I mean I think for for people who just want to get an understanding basically yield basis has effectively created a a strategy such that back testing back testing the bitcoin volatility assuming dampened volatility going forward. the strategy should work to basically create this uh increased yield opportunity for Bitcoin uh you know users who deposit into uh

yield basis without suffering the impermanent loss that a lot of DeFi uh struggles with. Can you just give us the 90 second how this works? How is if Bitcoin's volatility goes lower for the next you know 5 years how does yield basis capitalize the most compared to anything else on the market? Well um of course it all depends on the type of Bitcoin volatility which will happen. But if it simply goes down then yield basis will have to reparameterize the pools and make them uh denser right.

So make them um suitable for more stable assets. uh well you can say that pools they um concentrate liquidity right and I think the first concentrated liquidity pools which appeared on the market were curve in 2020 right so it's kind of the same algorithm but you have this dense liquidity moving around automatically right uh if asset is less volatile then maybe you have less revenues But you have you are you can afford to concentrate liquidity denser and when

you're concentrated denser then you take bigger um I don't know um you you increase capital efficiency essentially right so um you cannot have high capital efficiency if asset is highly volatile um so and if volatility of the asset goes down then you have to increase capital efficiency And uh this is just done by a parameter. Um and you cannot afford to have high high capital efficiency when the market is too volatile. Right? So uh I would say that we just have to recalibrate everything u by looking at how the market uh proceeds and uh we have a solid models

to to do it. Yeah. Awesome. And Michael, when the actual uh uh platform token goes live and the product goes live, is is the main pool going to be a Bitcoin USD? Uh like Oh, the actual pools are live already. Okay, the pools are live. Sorry. And and it's um well, the pool serves swaps between three types of Bitcoin essentially and Curve USD, but uh users deposit just the Bitcoin part.

Okay. And so the impermanent loss that we're going to be avoiding is going to be coming from the Bitcoin or any form of the Bitcoin, you know, wrapped, etc. And then paired with Curve USD basically. Yes. Okay. And Okay. And so this is a big play for you to expand the Curve USD demand. Yes. Obviously. And then that's going to help Curve CRV. Yeah. And by the way, this um this runs in new type of crypto pools on a curve which are not only useful for uh for yield bases and for bitcoin. They are

very useful for exchanging um essentially uh national currencies of different denomination like stable coins in USD versus stable coins in euro something like that. It's exactly the same code of pools. Um maybe you don't really have to run the full yield basis thing, but you can just run crypto pools and uh it's currently happening on curve to um to essentially set up curve as the prime foreign exchange uh venue on chain. Um and so so it's uh pretty much well yield basis is um some interesting tech on top of interesting tech

and uh but I see it coming together where it's like yield basis provides value to CRV USD gets more liquidity more depth more more demand just to own it and then CRVUSD allows the CRV flywheel to really actually take off. Right. Right. Yeah. We uh we've been discussing with some um some people online uh how this uh benefits curve because one one component which is fairly interesting is that when you swap between Bitcoin and USD, you have curve USD normally somewhere um on the way, right? So maybe you want to exchange

WBTC to USDT but uh you have W BTC to CRVUSD pool. So what happens is WBTC to CRVUSD to USDT and you have this uh CRVUSD to USDT way uh earning fees for curve. So the concern was what if other venues create pools with curve USD to earn those fees. But then the question is um well maybe they take some of these fees but then they create liquidity for curve USD and they make a supply sync for curve USD. So maybe they uh have curve USD adoption uh spread in this way or maybe centralized exchanges will list

curve USD because they would see volumes because of yield bases working essentially. So it's a an interesting way how that will turn out. So Curve USD total uh supply outstanding right now or market cap is about 120. Yeah, something like that. 5 million. Mhm. Yeah, I think something like that. So this is your this is your plan to get it to a billion, I guess. Or billions. Uh well um I mean it's a good question where the limit is, right? Uh yes like where do you go from here like what does yield basis take you for curve USD right well I mean uh a billion is quite

imaginable but I think um if you want to calculate absolute maximum it is determined by uh what will dampen volatility of bitcoin and I think that would be uh somewhere around tens of billions I think so. You think yield basis is going to bring tens of billions of stable coin demand for CRV USD? I think that's possible.

Wow. I wouldn't say I wouldn't say say for sure because like um who I'm going to have to start a prediction market for it. Yeah. Yeah. No one can uh predict the future. I wouldn't play on prediction markets. I can uh I can give predictions but I will not bet on them. Okay. Um, Michael, talk to us about how you chose to do the vesting schedule for uh the pre-sale participants as well as the um just the last thing that that I wanted to ask on token side, you know, it's fully unlocked on uh you know, at TGE for all the Legion participants as well as Kraken launch. Why did you choose that? And then and then what?

Yes. So, um yeah, that's that's actually a great question. Back when curve launched, the initial supply of CRV was zero, right? And um well price is essentially coming from um from demand divided by supply. When you have division by zero, you have infinite price. So uh that's what happened with CRV initially. And after you have infinite price, price starts going down.

Nobody likes price going down. So you have to have initial supply. Uh and uh you need to give it to someone. So and who to give it is of course yeah you know there there is this question but that there should be some liquid supply and that is what um what it is. Cool. at least part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. And then um Okay. So, what is the timeline here to that? Like are we think is this like an October launch? Like because in order to get the pools really to where you want them to be, the token is a necessary part.

Are the pools are are the pools ready? Like are you confident in the pools? They are, but I'm testing and checking things all the time. So that's why we started with smaller cap and also a curved down participants really wanted that way and I'm glad that they did. So now I think we are ready to expand the caps a little bit but after that we probably will need to expand the caps again. Uh but anyway uh I'm checking uh all sorts of plausible plausible issues which nobody could have thought of all the time. So that uh to

to ensure that everything is uh safe. Okay. But yeah, safety first. That's essentially why um why you cannot really um have um I don't know have trillion cap in day one, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um all right. So kind of I don't mean to go all all over the place here, but I just wanted to ask those two token questions before I uh you know got out of here. Just quick uh quick couple things from the fans. Hey Michael, how will you make sure people keep locking VEB for the long term once the early rewards slow down? That's from Brock Lee.

Oh, uh actually people who lock VYB, they don't get um rewards themselves. They get fees earned by YB, right? And fees are obviously bigger when you have bigger uh TVL sitting in YB, but they are real fees like real yield. So uh VB get apart from what's going to real yield. Okay. And so PE so you'll make sure people keep locking YB even once the early rewards slow down because Yeah. But but it's not like rewards are not going to VB. That's the thing.

Okay. What goes to VB is real fees and real fees depend on what market is doing not what rewards are doing. Got it. And then Maggie's asking is convex or CVX accumulating YB. I think uh they could I mean they have all the opportunities to do it. Okay. Uh Brock Lee says thank you for the answer. Um so Michael back to the curve USD stable coin component. And I think this was a really really interesting kind of thought experiment and process here. So let's say we get billions of of dollars of demand for CRV USD. What does that do to the curve flywheel? Like how does that enable a

more positive curve ecosystem? And then how does that value then go back to yield basis as a result of it starting with yield basis? it goes to curve and oh no no yield basis does get value just from fees which are earned in BTC to curve USD pools so yield basis already gets this part um and it needs to share the value with curve obviously there are two ways to share the value well several ways but uh one way is uh there is some allocation of YB tokens which is going with the speed proportional to inflation to curve and curve decides where they So the best thing I think is to put them to incentives uh of stable coin pools which

swap with curve USD to promote curve USD even further. When curve USD will be promoted um I think uh the well it's like supply sync going up so we will have more loans in curve USD and Curve will earn even more over there. Um and yeah so essentially you have um yield basis um powering powering curve and um yeah I already explained with the curve USD trading part so I think it's like uh things going uh hand in hand.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Um, and when you're thinking about the actual VEB token, um, people are have a little bit of PTSD from CRV and all of the copycats that came after with the VE model. I know you guys shortened the total period down from the initial uh uh uh time lock, I believe. Or maybe it is still the the same four-year maximum. Um, it's still same for you. Okay. Okay. So, so but there are some there are a few differences. Maybe you could explain those.

Uh yeah, there are a few technical differences. You can uh actually if you have max locked position, you can um transfer it around as a whole, right? Which is um which is more convenient when you want to move it to some I don't know multi wallet. So we don't disallow smart contracts to own it. That's uh one thing. Another thing I think uh in in curve we have this mechanism of boosts where owning um locked tokens gives you ability to earn more um more tokens for your liquidity right at the expense of

those who don't have uh locked tokens but actually uh looking uh over long term it looks like that leads to consolidation of uh vecb the voting power in a few actors who are really good actors though but it's a little bit uh not not like not super not super diverse I would say so and uh there will be and and this boost mechanism is also fairly complicated so I think it was better to uh go without it and uh that's uh what I did here so it's uh but but nevertheless Plus uh all the rappers around VE tokens they

still do make sense right when you buy a rapper uh whether it can vote or not I don't know uh you still um like you exchange the time the locking time into um into the probability of the wrapper dagging because you have um some limited liquidity uh on the sell side. So you cannot really exit uh the rapper and mass and uh you you just exchange one risk with another risk. So time risk with uh um potential price risk, right? And uh

well that's probably fair and uh that still achieves um even if the rapper can vote you still can achieve the original uh purpose of uh VE tokconomics which is to prevent uh governance attacks um like long-term governance attacks. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. All right, Michael, we got a couple uh questions from the chat. One guy Ajax says no email yet. Ajax, I'm sorry. It was 40x overs subscribed on Legion. Um hopefully you can get in the first come first- serve sale. Justin says very bluntly, Michael, when is TGE? I think we kind of spoke on this. Uh maybe you could just just quickly rehash the road map. And yeah, I will I I cannot tell the exact dates

yet, but uh really uh we need to to have pools working a little bit with well with tiny bit of liquidity like now and with a little bit more liquidity and after that I think it's uh uh it's reasonable to uh to do the TG. Yeah, but I I cannot tell the dates exactly yet. Got it. Cool. Cool. Cool. Uh I'll let you know if we get any more. U I just got a couple couple last things for you, Michael. What is the what is left for uh the like? So, okay. So, we get to the uh token launch, we get the pools up. Then, after the pools are incentivized with

the token and you got this kind of dual optionality system for people that want real yield or or YB, what is left from you guys after that on the development side? Like what do you need to do to go from that absolutely that place to the next? One thing is that we are definitely probably the most um the most um knowledgeable ones currently uh in terms of running uh simulations and and being able to figure the parameters of the pools. As I said before, the parameters depend on volatility and volatility changes over a

long time. So we will have to change parameters over some time I guess and when we add new assets we need to calculate new parameters for the new assets. Obviously Ethereum is more volatile than Bitcoin and BNB is more volatile than uh Ethereum and which assets are good to add in yield basis. um and what what are should the liquidity concentration be what should the fees be is something uh one needs to calculate. Another thing if we do some research and come up with mechanism which actually earns more then it's good to implement it. Remember the liquidity

is 2x leveraged over there. So if um if having some I don't know some dynamic fee which is better than what we did makes us plus 1% in APR uh in YB that would turn into plus 2% in APR. So you amplify all the improvements by factor of two and that's not small. So this is uh uh well if we create in future we can create new pools for the same assets which earn more because we let's say come up with some uh mechanism to do this more efficiently. So that's

uh I think um yeah I I think that that's where we we will still need to oversee it. Oh, of course. Well, I mean, anyone can, right? But uh uh but yeah, I it's I'm just not even uh very much aware of anyone else uh doing simulations of uh trading activity which which actually matches the reality within I don't know within few percent like I mean few percent precision. So let's say uh if if you have simulation showing um I don't know 3.4% APR uh and you have the real

pool doing 3.3 or 3.5% that's probably good right and I don't think I've seen this this kind of precision anywhere else uh outside the simulations we do. Michael, last thing for you. Any alpha on which which assets you're thinking about next? I think the probably the most obvious one would be Ethereum itself. All right. Um I don't know maybe maybe Ethereum maybe Ether maybe staked Ether.

Uh I need to think but Ethereum is a definitely a good one. Um what else? We will see. I always try to look at gold, right? I don't know. I don't know if it's possible. It's just tether gold. I mean it could work. it. I mean, it just sounds fascinating. I I want to have this brick of gold which becomes bigger and bigger on my shelf. Right. Michael, Michael, Michael, thank you for your time. I know it's busy over there. I know you got 20 minutes or so until the sale on Kraken. I'm going to let you go and I'm sure the team is hands down, heads down right now. Appreciate you you jumping on and uh yeah, it was a great session man.

Sounds good. All righty, Michael. Speak soon, buddy. Bye. Thank you. Alrighty, guys. Wow. Well, that was that. Guys, if you have any quick questions in the chat, hit me on on Twitter or on YouTube. Uh Pezy says, "Frxe ETH." I could see that happening. Yes, I agree. Um guys, we we we will have Laura Shin up here in just a sec, guys. Any more questions for Michael that that you want to talk to uh him about in the chat? Let me know. Um guys, before before I sign off and go back to the the normal segments, um man, this sale is about to sell out on Kraken in like freaking 2 seconds. It's going to be less than a minute. It's going to be

plasma style sellout for the pre-eposite vaults on yield basis. Um Michael didn't tell us when the token's going to launch, but we can infer that because the pool's already up, it could be this month. It is the first day of Q4 already. So that is probably a good inference for us to make. Um and yeah guys, I mean I think the key breakthrough here is right now and throughout the entire history of DeFi, we've basically been farming incentives of a effectively a pool two token. What we're allowing and what Michael's allowing you to do now is to say look there's actually real yield being generated by fees by you know treasuries

by other kind of vehicles that are real yield based on the on uh the the mechanism of curve or you can earn incentives in YB. So, it's kind of like if you're wanting to just dump your incentives, well, sure, you could still elect to do that with YB, but you you you may as well just opt in for the real yield option. You know, maybe I I wouldn't have told this to Michael to his face. I think he's still in the background, so he might be able to hear this. But effectively, in DeFi, we're just trying to create better pool twos that have longer, more sustainable economics. And this is an experiment, guys, not financial advice. I'm not going to tell you what you should or shouldn't do here. I'm participating. I I have allocated into uh the the Legion

sale. Also, we'll be trying the first come first serve. So, I'm stoked on it. Thanks for watching this episode of Stabled Up, guys. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to be right back with Laura Shen. Uh speak to you guys soon and we'll roll it out of here. Thanks, guys, and see you in a second. guys. Uh, that was an epic segment. Um,

that's Michael for you. I mean, guy's a character. Up next, we got Laura Shin, host of the Unchained podcast and, uh, first time on the show. She is getting some flack for launching a creator token. I want to talk to her about it. Uh, I know she's excited to to talk about it as well. So, this should be a fun fun segment. Um, I mean, Laura basically just pushed the idea of experimentation to the max. And, um, I just want to hear about it cuz I'm considering what she's already done, if that's any alpha. So, um, checking on the chat, guys. Give me a sec. Thanks for the interview, fam. Brock Lee, I appreciate you. Appreciate the the the comments, the love. Uh, KR King's Crown the rollup. What up, man? What up? What

up? How are you? Um, yeah, guys. I mean, if you're still waiting on that uh yield basis sale, I mean, it's definitely not going to be a a uh, you know, sale for everyone, unfortunately. I think we barely got squeezed in on our side as well. So, that's the reality of the situation. It's unfortunate, but it's okay. Um, we're going to get Laura Shin up and we're going to get her fired up. So, excited to to chat. Um, and yeah, yeah, yeah. We got some music playing in the back. We're We're hanging out. What's Bitcoin doing, guys? I literally called this first day of Q4. I said yesterday that we're going to rip.

I agreed with a tweet. Bitcoin's 4hour candle just closed an hour ago, 1166. ETH back up to 43. Soul at 220 with a $2 billion DAT announced. Pangu up 10%. pump up 15%. Uh XPL bouncing back, guys. I think we are in Q4. I think we're in the golden bull. I think it's happening. We're going to get Laura Shin up. We're going to find out what what's going on with her. Check in the chat. Check in the chat. Andy, go on Kraken and stream your dashboard live participation. Oh, that would be sick. I actually already did it on Legion. Um, but I we'll have to talk to to Laura Shinhashler, but I think you

should do it if you're if you're in and you get the chance. I think it's going to be a winner. Unlocked on TGE. Not financial advice. Decent valuation. It's freaking Michael from Curve. How can you fade Michael from Curve? Come on, guys. Come on. Use your minds. You use your brains. Use your brains. All right, guys. Let's get Let's get uh Laura up and let's get her going. Um, she's already in the back and and I know she had a little bit of technical stuff, but we should be good to go. Um, and yeah, Laura, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me and sorry for the technical issues.

I mean, you know it, you know, just as well as we do. It just happens. And I I know that you've been doing streaming uh more recently and it's just it's a different beast compared to podcasting. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, Laura, thanks for your time. I've been a big fan. uh love your work and I think a lot of people in in in the space do. Um you you found yourself in the midst of the timeline on Monday and Tuesday this week which is nothing new for you. Um and that you launched upon funcoin which is really cool. Um a you got a lot of props from people that are active in crypto that are onchain you know enthusiasts VCs etc. Then you also got a lot of push back from Ethereum people from people who kind of were like is her account hacked? What's going on?

This is not Laura. Um, so maybe just give us the lore here. You're sitting o o over the weekend kind of weighing your options. How did you come to this choice? And kind of talk us through uh how how this happened. Well, actually um we launched it last week, but um the person who was like managing that, they didn't um amplify it. They didn't like let anybody know. And afterward I was like, "Wait, you didn't you didn't tweet that out." Anyway, um so what happened was, you know, I had Noah on the show and um he was like just obviously talking about Pump and and about like the issues for creators and you know, we've long heard that crypto and web 3 can resolve this

problem where creators in web 2 don't really um make very much money. And um our company has done I think all the crypto mediaish things. Um you know we uh have been on fountain for a long time pods um we did Zora, we've done Dracula like like we're you know I don't know if there's any that we're missing. There might be some but we've done all of those. And so I um was feeling like well this fits in that bucket. But then the other thing is that we are doing more live streams. we um you know were doing podcasts for a long time but I'm sure you felt the shift basically like ever since Trump got elected now there's so

much news so before we were doing two podcasts a week and it kind of made sense that like we would have um you know one longer show maybe where we can get you dive into details on things or like feature a project or just a person or whatever um and then we would have like a little bit of a shorter show that was about the big news of that week and then like so much news just started happening and um the news cycles were kind of getting shorter and not only that but like um the feeling of if you don't really cover it in the day or two when everybody's talking about it then like it's just it just feels old. It feels a little stale and um so anyway point is that we we've already been so we we had not even announced any of

this. We're just like experimenting like what works for us and we're kind of just starting to stream a lot more to just figure out what's our best rhythm before we kind of finalize everything. But as of course Pump is a streaming platform. So um it just felt like okay well this is like a platform that is a good fit you know. Um the token aspect and I'm not going to lie like that was not like a huge part of it. Um, obviously I knew we were going to make creator fees, but it wasn't like we're creating this token for our people. That's what the platform does. You know, when we um, you know, started on Zora, like of course we were creating tokens there as well. Um, and like I even remember with Zora, yeah, we

got some push back at that time as well. It's it wasn't as as big as with the pump, but it was like a thing. Um, and you know, I guess like if I really kind of zoom out and just think about this, like so as I mentioned, you know, for so long we've talked about how this technology can address that issue that we have in web 2 with creators. And so, um, you know, we're kind of like experimenting because, um, you know, like I'm I'm way older than most people in crypto, which which is fine. Like I'm not I'm not like embarrassed by that or or anything, but you know, something that's very sad for me as as a creative person, as somebody who loves to see human creativity and as somebody who

like like all my friends will tell you I'm their biggest cheerleader. Like if they have a dream, I'm always the one who's like, "Oh my god, you got to do it. Like, you know, you're you're so talented." Like, you know, blah blah blah. Like I'm just that person. And um it just pains me. I have so many friends who are talented writers and journalists who just over the years have stopped doing journalism and it just feels like you know so many of them like you know I I even very recently I've had friends who are in journalism and they are very negative about the business and the industry and um and they'll you know they say things to me and you know I I don't know what their real feelings are but sometimes I

feel like they um they sort of look at what has happened with my career and they like I don't know if jealous is the right word but just like there is something about the fact that I happen to get interested in a topic where like people are literally making money out of thin air correct that has insulated me from yeah what is happening in the broader industry and so um point is that I'm very interested in how this technology can address this problem that pains me to see in my own life like um yeah, a part of me is just like, "Oh my god, like you know, if if we were to create something, then I know exactly which friend I'm going to be like, look, you need to use this because you are so talented and this friend of

mine literally went into business and I do not think that person is well suited to business and they're they're a way better writer than I am. So, I just would like for them to take advantage." So anyway, I sorry that I'm straying, but the point is like this is the reason I'm talk saying all this is because this is something I thought about a lot, like a lot. And it's something that um yeah, I feel like almost emotional about like I feel like people who are talented, they should be compensated for what they put out. And the business model of journalism has been broken for so long.

Like literally th this is how I started. I started at Newsweek um the year that they were breaking like all the news about Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton. They were like the leading news publication on this major news event like that that was like the top news story for that world for for for that era. And um and at that time the top editors they all got private cars to and from the building. They all like took these long lunches. Like I remember literally the top he was like one of So they they call them the Wendas. I don't even know what that means or like why they call them that. But the top top editors were called the Wendas. And one of the Wendas was the the editor for my group.

That guy literally spent all day playing solitaire in his huge office. I'm not joking you guys. Like all every time we went we walked by we saw him like playing solitire and there. Anyway, all I'm trying to say is so like that world of like, you know, um you could make it in media and like have it, you know, be a cushy job that went away because within the decade after I started working there, Newsweek got sold for $1. They got sold for $1. So, you know, so all I'm trying to say is I have watched this big tower like crumble over the past like almost 30 years. Yeah.

And it's just like, oh my god. Like, and it's not like they were doing bad work. Like, that's not what happened. No, it's that the internet came along and then this stupid notion that, you know, information should be free or what whatever it is that people say like like I that somehow, you know, I'm not going to lie, like probably journalists are they're probably not the most financially savvy people in the world, right? like because people who are interested in that line of work, they're not as motivated by money as like other people in like finance or whatever, right?

So, um, so I think they just didn't understand like they were screwing themselves over like this business model wasn't working for them, like whatever. Um, so anyway, sorry like I I feel like I'm getting far from your question, but I mean it's just like this is the culmination of, you know, almost 30 years of like watching this collapse and me thinking, hey, like I'm in this position where my company can test these things out. Um, you know, I feel like pump is just one in a long line of things. And then the other thing, so sorry that I'm talking so long, but the other aspect of this that I do want to talk about, which so um so the the first time we ever streamed on Pump when the person on my team did not did not tell

people about it, which is okay, but that it just so happened that the first interview we had that day was actually somebody who was talking about Pump. Um and and it that wasn't planned because we had actually wanted to launch it the a couple days before and then it just like technically we could make it happen. But anyway, point is, so that person was talking about something that he was calling audience fi and that I was thinking of like you could call it as like attention fi. And basically like this is something that we've talked about a lot where like everybody knows that there's value in eyeballs on your content, right? Like this is literally the basis of advertising. You know, you want to you want to sponsor things where like your target audience is going to consume that content. So, you know, this

is why like um if you pick up a magazine about tech, there will be tech company ads in there, right? And same with like any website or like now, you know, it's more tailored where like literally, you know, the other day I was uh like like on a website for for like accessories like bags and and shoes and stuff like that. And then of course I see, oh, I'm getting served ads from that company. You know, they're following me on the internet. So anyway, all I'm trying to say is that like um this notion that like your fans could directly monetize you when they're sort of like um you know bypassing that middleman of the of the advertiser like that that's like that's almost a way to diversify for a

media company. Yes. So um so point is like yeah the I honestly for for all the push back we got I actually probably thought about it less than people think because to my mind it's just part of like this long kind of rolling thing that I've been sort of noodling on for a long time. Yeah. Um you know now obviously with the push back I'm realizing okay like I guess memecoin yeah they're of course I understand they're different. We we didn't our thing was like the creator rewards. Um, you know, and I see like now I'm getting a lot of tweets back at me like, "Hey, you should do something with this meme point." Yeah.

Um, you know, we didn't really have plans around that. I'm not like completely averse to that, but it would have to be something that makes sense for us. Um, but the point is that Yeah, that's that's basically the very long story of how we got there. And I had Jesse from Bason about last week. He announced he was uh officially gonna create his creator token. And you know his word of advice to us because Laura, I'd be lying to you if I said I wasn't last month. I was on a call with Allan from Pump and we he was literally like I'll set you guys up and I and I've just been just running it in my mind, right? Like it's been so you've actually kind of given me a little bit of a push which is why I wanted to have this call.

So thank you. Um and and so Jesse was like, "Look, when launching a a creator token, he's like, "Look, there should be some general framework that you have for like what the value is going to be in the on on the launch." So maybe just something as small as like a you know, a little private chat for all the token holders, something super easy. But it should be this iterative process that you build out over time just like any other project does. And obviously you have to make it known that there's not any kind of like expected value here etc. But I think that like you're on the right frame of thought where you just kind of launch with an MVP and perhaps you're going to you know you know further develop that MVP in the immediate future but then you can really

just take your time to build out what Jesse was basically calling as like your own little streaming economy or your own little economy between the the creator and the fans. you know, there's tipping, there's private chats, there's token holder gated streams, there's token holder gated events in in person. And so, I think you're on the right track. Um, and then the the the other thing just kind of on the bigger trend that you were alluding to is the one thing you got right that that media uh lost trust in a big way um in is the is the shift from the brand to the creator. And I know journalists have been, you know, about themselves for a while in terms of the bigger company that they work for, but like very clearly we know Laura Shin

and we know Unchained as a result. And I think that has been uh like a a big trend that's also pushing dollars away from traditional journalism towards influencers towards like the social digital age. And so I kind of just want to like brainstorm a bit on like what is even possible with a creator token. You know, I I looked at your chart. Um, you had over a million dollars in volume in the last 24 hours, which means that, and I know that you you don't necessarily care about this, but that was like 10 grand in creator fees. So, that's pretty impressive. Um, you know, you could do a buyback. You could allocate that, you know. So, like I'm just curious like let's brainstorm on what the creator creator fan relationship could look like and like this incentive.

Yeah. I mean, so as I just mentioned to you, this is not something I've thought about very much. Yeah. Um but because all these people started tweeting at me like hey here are some ideas I did share some with my team and like we'll meet probably to talk about like what we might do but um you know when we like I said when I started my thought was like oh this is a good platform for us like potentially our audience might be there and then on top of that um you know the the creator fees are like just another way for us to monetize but now that I've seen some of the suggestions I'm like, oh, okay.

Like, there are good ideas in here. Um, I don't want to say anything in particular, though, because it I I don't want people to Yeah. But it's something that like I realize like, oh, okay. Yeah, there there are creative ideas in here that I feel like don't um they like Yeah, this is the just just to go back to what one of the points you made in your question about like journalist versus um influencer or like a a media brand versus like the journalists themselves. Um yeah you're right. So nor so okay these are the normal tenets of being a journalist they'll say like you are not the story.

So like that's why as a journalist you try to not insert yourself into the story. Um like I remember in my book there was one moment where actually um a character did something because of an email I sent. So at that point in my book I did have to insert myself as a quote unquote character. Uh but like normally, you know, that's kind of a a way that we think about our work is like we're we're trying to be the observers, the referees, like you know, we're trying to log what's happening. Um but you're right that so this was my start with the podcast basically. You know, I had started covering crypto in 2015. I became very obsessed with it. Um and then a year later, I started the podcast. And um at that time I was only doing one podcast every other week and

but I was writing like eight articles on crypto a month. So I was doing like four times as many articles. But then nine months later I went to this conference and everybody was like I love your podcast. Nobody mentioned the articles. Yeah. And and I realized like oh that's the power of the human voice. It's like they, you know, like an article you maybe aren't seeing the person as much. Whereas like if they're guiding you through, you know, an interview with somebody like you kind of get a sense of who they are as a person and even just like like the emotion when they ask something like whether they're excited or they're kind of um you know, laughing about it or or they seem skeptical or whatever it is, right? Um, so my point is that um I do think that I kind of unintentionally became um more yeah of

like that sort of influencer type figure. But when people call me like a KO or an influencer, I'm like wait that's not what I am because I don't I don't feel that way because I'm not personally like like you know on my podcast I never say like oh I think this is the best exchange or this is the best wallet or whatever. Um, and so I'm not trying to personally like give my opinion. I I might like here and there, but it's not like, you know, part of my work, right? So anyway, point is that I'm I am starting to realize that that is the way media shifting. Um, I I will say I personally don't love the feeling of media that's very like biased or or like has too strong a stance. Sometimes

to me that feels a little bit like they're trying to tell me what to think and I really resist that. That's why I kind of like a little bit more of a neutral like these are the facts. This is the you know the evidence we discovered like whatever. I prefer that so I can kind of like come to my own conclusions. Um but I do think it is true that is the way people that's the way media has been trending actually for quite a while. So, um I'm not going to lie that, you know, I have thought a little bit about experimenting with that. I haven't really done it yet, probably just because I'm so used to doing journalism the way that I've always done, but um yeah, point is sorry. So, for your your question about the the token and stuff.

Um that's probably another reason why I haven't um thought too much about it because like even the notion of putting my finger on the scale or like telling people, well, this is good or this is bad. That's just something. It's so against my training. I haven't I haven't done much of it. Yeah. So, Laura, I just want to tell you that I've got the bass app open here and we have our stream playing on it. And so, basically, I'm going and I'm tipping the stream as if I was a participant. And on the screen here, you can see in the replay, it shows up as as a tip.

We've got buy and sell token options. So, you can buy and sell different tokens that we have on our app. And there's also like a sentiment meter where you can basically do like a prediction market for a certain topic in the app. And so base app is something that you could, you know, potentially think about as as well. I'm trying to figure out how to navigate Bass and Salana here. It sounds like Bass app is allowing Salana tokens to come into base going forward as well. My thought process towards this is rather than picking sides is to experiment with all and be kind of neutral in that way. Do you agree with that? And then I'm also curious.

That's exactly what we're doing. And like even because I recently got into the base app or I got the email saying that I had gotten in, but I just haven't had time to explore it. But I knew there would be something like that. And I was thinking like we we need to get on whatever that is. So thank you for explaining that to me because um it's been in my mind that we have to get on there and and start doing that. So Laura, the the I know we're kind of tight on time, but the last thing here that I wanted to kind of get your opinion on is around like how how do you feel right now after you've launched the the token? Like do you feel that you have to walk on eggshells with what you're saying or about it or do you feel

that you have to kind of like change your tone? How how do you feel with like the way that you communicate with your audience? Um like again um because I hadn't thought that much about that aspect of it. Um no but then some of the critics of the fact that I you know started streaming on pump started saying well these are all the things that you know could happen to you like trying to say like this is going to be bad for you. And so now so now I have some awareness. Um but yeah basically um I feel like we were pretty clear about why we went there. Um, so yeah, I'm I'm not um I mean that's why like yeah, in this conversation I haven't made any promises about what

we're doing with the token because I this is actually just truly not something that I've thought about too much other than seeing the tweets people sent me and thinking, oh, some of those are actually interesting ideas and then just sending it to the team and saying we should meet and that's literally all that's happened. I love just how brutally honest you've been and it's clear that Pump didn't pay you to do this. This has been just you on your own on on your own doing. It was just my idea. I was like, we should just go on there. Yeah. How do you deal with like all the haters? Like I get people in the comments all the time. Your comments were getting absolutely blown up. Like especially from Ethereum land. I think you've been a big Ethereum uh proponent and then have also like us kind of

basically been like look we we're going to support all platforms. We're going to support innovation here. It's not about one or the other. How do you deal with like maximalist camps like fighting over if you're on bass or Solano or just general like haters throughout your career? Like do you have any advice for me or advice for other kind of people? Um so there's there's different buckets of haters. Um the the first bucket is um you know and I hopefully this won't come across as like mean, but but I'm sure we all know cuz because we've all been there. you know, when you're not feeling great about life and you like take it out on somebody, like that's that's one bucket. So,

there's just certain ones where I know like, okay, this doesn't have to do with me, like that person is not feeling great about themselves and and that's what that is. Um, another bucket which, um, maybe is maybe, you know, you saw in my tweet, maybe what some of the critics uh, from the other night were is um, like you're not pumping my bags of that bucket and then they're mad about that. So, um, you know, I I can see that for what that is. Um, but then the last bucket, this is the bucket that I pay attention to. this is the bucket of um I actually did something wrong and the critic is right and then I will want to correct it, you know, and of course I

feel bad that I did something wrong, but I don't feel bad unless I truly think that I did something wrong. Like if I made a mistake, of course I'm like mad about that for myself, just like uh that's that's stupid that you know I did that or whatever. Um, but like honestly when people um when so so here's something that just keeps happening to me over and over and over again and it's been happening for a long time but every single like people of every coin think that I'm against their coin and it's it's fine like if it happens for you know a coin that actually yeah I think that's a stupid coin but for Bitcoins Ether and Saul which I think those are

probably the three most legit coins. There are people in each of those groups who think that I'm against their coin and I'm just like like this is it's just ridiculous. And sometimes I just want to get them all in a room together so they can all like try to win the argument that I hate their coin more than the other because like some of those side like definitely both on Ethereum and Salana those people think that I am pro the other coin and I'm just like you guys need to talk it out amongst yourselves. But anyway, so that's my main thing is just like it's just weird how people come up with these conspiracy theories.

By the way, that's the other thing. Like people that I know personally that I've had on the show that I consider people that I'm friendly with, they get in my DMs and they are like, "Are you being paid by the Salana Foundation?" Like they're literally asking me this serious. Oh my gosh. Like, what are you smoking? What are you smoking? But I don't know these I don't know what goes on in chat groups when people talk about me, but all I can say is like it must be wild. I would love to be a fly in a wall in those. This is so Oh my god. Anyway, Laura, I I got to ask you last thing.

You put out a tweet that said, "Bro, no cap." And it like that is you tapping into your inner Zoomer. I got to ask what the hell happened. I had to ask chat GBT how to say that. I was like, "How do you how do you say G Whiz in Gen Alpha language?" That's literally what I typed into chat GBT and it told me. Oh my gosh. My buddy text me that he's like, "Dude, I think she she stole her account." So that's what they're saying. That's what they're saying behind the scenes is that you stole your account. I used an AI, you guys. I used an AI.

Laura Shin, one of the best podcasts and now streams in the space. Um, and thank you for your time. Thanks for joining. Thanks for explaining it. Um, if I was like on the edge of launching a creator coin, I'm like my toes are dangling now. So I appreciate your time. I So yeah, that's the one thing is like I think perhaps your audience would hound you more for I don't know. I could be wrong. I don't know the difference between your audience and my audience. I could be wrong. I don't know if my audience will like beounding me quite as I could be wrong.

Yeah, I know what you mean though. Maybe like f like five weeks from now I'll be like, "Oh man, this Well, that's the thing. Maybe we we can just end on I don't want to take too much time, but like the like what do you expect to be one year from now? It's hard to say, but like the big push back for like the pump fun coins is like, oh, they're not sustainable. All the meme coins have been dying. But this is different. It's like as long as Laura Shin is streaming, is doing her stuff, is building her business, then there there should always be some sort of demand to watch on Pump, to trade the token. So, it it really is just dependent on your ability to continue is my interpretation.

Yeah, that's that's how I'm thinking about it. I'm like, I'm putting out good work that people are interested in and so there should be then like a natural kind of um interest in watching me on Pump or maybe you know for whoever cuz that's that's really what I was getting at like so when I interviewed that guy James Pllo from Figment Capital and he was talking about this like audience FI or attention FI there are people who like to trade around these things right and um it's becoming like there are certain people who yeah that's just like part of what they do and so um it's like if it like it's hard yeah there's not a direct connection because I'm not promising like we're going to do this

for the token it's like I'm part of this world where there will soon be a a stronger connection between creating content and direct monetization of fans and it it's like it's like I'm one of the first people on the dance floor which in real life I will do that I am the first you know that's who I in real life, you know, I am one of those people at the party. I'll be the first to dance. Um so, but and the last bit um that I just wanted to say is like I feel like part of the condemnation is a holdover from the web 2 era where we are not used to creators making money from from doing these things. And so it's like just changing your mindset, you know. So that

I think that's what the condemnation comes from. It's like oh other creators they don't make money. like why are you you know how can you do that? But it's like think about Kickstarter. Kickstarter was a thing like that where you know however much you add to the Kickstarter like you get different tiers of things like like we could do something like we we haven't thought of that yet but but that it it's not like such a crazy thing like how many you know musicians that I love have I like contributed to their Kickstarter you know like that that's it's just so anyway point is like I don't think that um you know what what Pump allows us to do or or that that jump from from what I mentioned like the Kickstarter or whatever to pump. I don't think it's um as crazy. It's just that we're not used

to seeing people make money that way. And I don't think there's, you know, anything wrong with it. Um but like I said, I think for us uh we we may not um like yeah, our the people trading our coin may understand that there's like less of a direct relation. I don't know. We'll see. I know what you mean. I mean, I think the way that you frame it is very important, and I appreciate you being uh one of the first of like the legitimate companies so I can just sit back, take take my time, watch your situation unfold, and then the next person after me is going to do the same thing. So, um, like I said, if I was on the edge prior to this, my toes are dangling. Laura Shin, again, CEO, co-founder, one of the best podcasts in

the space, best media channels. Thank you so much for your time and uh, this was fun. Thanks. Yeah, it was great. Bye, Laura. Bye. Peace. All righty, guys. Well, you heard it here first. I think there's a rollup pump funcoin potentially launching. So, got a Can somebody call Robbie, please? Here, let me just give give Rob a call. Let's see where Rob is in in the in the world. I'm not even sure if he's going to be able to answer. Let's see what he says. Let's give Rob a call. See what he thinks about this one. I think he's traveling. I'm not sure he's gonna be able to answer, but I just I just saw a text from him. He might be at the airport somewhere.

Let's see what he says about this one. Not getting any any response. He he might be at the airport. This this may be for the better. You know, maybe we have to do this a bit more strategically rather than just uh saying [ __ ] it and uh calling calling my business partner and saying that I think we're we're launching a token. So, it's probably not the best move, is it? So guys, uh, we're going to pull back up the screen and we're going to look at the feed a bit and hang out a bit because there is some stuff happening. That is for sure. So, um, guys, that was awesome. I mean, I'm bullish on Laura's token. She literally made 10 grand in the last 24 hours off of just the volume. It's only trading at like a million dollar market cap. Um, and yeah, I'm going to see if Rob can uh

can pick up here. Um, or if he wants to just join the stream on his phone and hop in and chat about it. Um, all right guys, I'm going to go ahead and get my streaming thing up. But yeah, guys, we had that was just I mean that was sick. I'm checking the chat right now. What's going on? How can we trust you when you can't even choose good sale partner? Um, okay. You're talking about the yield basis, dude. I don't think that that's Legion's fault, man. um they had the biggest demand they've ever seen ever in uh in crypto.

So, I mean, how you're going to ascribe that to being Legion's fault, I don't really see that as the reality. Um but I think that, you know, I get the anger. I get the frustration. I think the anger and the frustration is more about um freaking the the sale being oversubscribed and less so, you know, not getting in. Leo, let's cue some tunes. Let's get the screen going and let's have a let's have a little day here. I I got a tweet up that that I want to talk about uh and and go on about. Rob's not answering. We'll have to get him on tomorrow's show. All right, guys. Um here we go. I will get you guys this tweet that I want to talk about token 2049 for a second. Um because I think that that is what's kind

of happening right now in the space. I'm sitting here at home um in Florida as you can see on the screen. Um, so it should be good there, Leah to send. Let's get the synth wave tunes going if we got them. Um, let me start again here. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. So, guys, what I want to talk about now is uh the token 2049 stuff. Um, I got a good tweet from Jason Troy here that I want to go over.

Um, I think it's going to be helpful for those who are not there. Um, and I'm going to scroll the feed a bit and just talk token49. Um, so should be should be good. Just give us one sec here to get this pulled up. Man, Laura is is pioneering freaking streaming. She is she literally self-proclaimed um um she's literally self-proclaimed older than everybody else in crypto, she said. And yeah, I mean that's that's what's going on here. So, I'm bullish. If she can do a a damn streaming coin, I don't see why the rest of us can't. I'm bullish. Leo, let's get the screen up. I think we're good. Uh should be streaming

there. And uh and yeah, we'll I want to show Jason Choice tweet here. So, um we should be able to pull that up. Music's rolling. Vibes are up. All right, we got Jason on the screen. So, market color from token 2049. Um, everyone was universally bearish at a trader cocktail hour I attended at the last token. We put on the most risk for the year not long after that ended up being a good decision. This time around, sentiment is much more mixed. Everyone is bullish. Bitcoin long-term paring the same thesis. This is so true. But no one managing consequential amounts seem to have actual conviction for anything else in crypto from these price levels. That is a crazy phenomenon. And I think it's

so true. Uh, everyone sees altcoins now as like just total garbage, which I think is not fair. They have no conviction to hold anything, which I think is silly. Our fund has done so many long-term investments that we I'm forced to be uh bullish. And I don't think that you're going to make money right now if you're being if you're like so short-term bullish or short-term bearish. You need to have assets that you're wanting to hold longterm. And then you can still do trend trading and multi-month trading, but I just don't see why people are so bare. I mean, I see why, but I think that trend is wrong. Obvious that the most represented group of survivors of meaningful capital are traders. It's been a traders market.

As most product talk is around per dexes, what a surprise. Lots of discussions around hyperlquid Binance response and the next players. Also, what a surprise. Pockets of wholesome attempts and earnest innovation. Dot deep pin but rare. Again, probably a lot of just kind of I don't know, not grifting, but like not the best products being built in some of those categories. Um, market views are 50-50 split with credible reasons on both sides. This is potentially the most interesting part of the tweet. Bulls e easing monetary environment. Yes, rates are going down. Bitcoin cold spoiled spring lagging gold market up. Yep. Revenue meta. Dude, wow.

I mean this I cannot believe how the revenue meta line has proliferated. Guys, I gotta guys, we need to just, you know, make sure that everyone knows where revenue meta started. Um, I'm going to pull up the the OG tweet that seemingly just upset everyone because I said revenue meta uh as if it was a shortterm thing. Um, and so here, let me find the poll. Um, here's the poll.

Um, how long does the revenue meta actually last? June 3rd, 2025. How long does the revenue meta actually last? That is June, July, August, September. Four months. We're four months deep into the revenue meta right now. 34% said less than three months. Well, I hate to break it to you, but you're wrong. long. This is October 1st. Revenue Meta is still alive clearly. Um, less than 6 months, 10% less than a year or less than two years. And I think less than two years is more like forever. So, I think the the the audience was right here in that like it is forever. But, it's just so funny to me how this two lines have gone into every freaking big

tweet of the last four months. I mean, I'm obviously over exaggerating here, but everyone talking about fundamentals talks about revenue meta. And I think it's such a trippy term because there's two sides to the revenue meta thesis. It's like the first side is like you just want to bid fundamental tokens that are going to keep doing well and have cash flows for buybacks. The other side is like, well, the whole space is [ __ ] if we roll into the revenue meta because 99% of this stuff is hot garbage and has no revenue. And so, you know, what we actually want to invest in is growth. And that's what Hib said on our on one of our viral uh permissionless clips was like growth is how you want to think about crypto, not what the DeFi llama last week's volume is. And so you want

to ascribe some market value to it. No. And so those are like the two sides of the coin. I think that's why it's a controversial take and a controversial thing. So yeah, let's definitely clip that one. Um and and I I think that is just that en encompasses the revenue meta. uh you know, Revolute Meta generally much healthier than the memecoin meta, which again is kind of what I'm saying, and could last longer. Again, the the tweet shows that with the 44% opting for the less than two years option, which is effectively the kind of like long-term option, uh bears have hot ball money, evidence, hype, aster XPL, no new net inflows. I think the thesis here is more like there's nobody buying this stuff. Like

there's nobody new to buy the hot flavor of the day anymore. So, I think that's kind of like the core issue. Um, still no new net experimentation that inspires confidence. Dats are obvious, slow bead outcomes and ancycle phenomenon. If you notice, I am tipping myself cuz I'm trying to get people to use Bassap. I want people to use Bass App. Uh, they're not quite using it, but we're going to get there. We're going to get you guys there. We're going to get some better features. I just want to show what's possible. I think I'm going to try to buy a coin on BAP, actually. So, let's see what happens here. I got some USDC.

I'm going to buy a dollar of chain link and let's see what happens. Trade now. Trading USDC for link. See that does it come up. Also, no phone case because I this thing is just so sexy. Uh let's see. Did it come up? Buy ETH. Buy $10 of ETH. Here we go. Loading. All right. Oh, there it is. Bought some ETH. Boom. Boom. All right. It's working. That's super cool. So, yeah. on the base app, on the rollup mini app, you can actually buy um assets that we have listed there and you can do tips, you can do some chats chat features soon as well. So, should be should be pretty cool. All

right, guys, back to the feed. Um, so I mean look I think this is interesting, but wow, Jason Choy has invested seven figures into robotics. Jesus, Steve, Emir's 20 2018 crypto industry a bit. No one agrees with value of cruise. People can't agree what the main form factor should be. VCs have hyper optimistic timelines. Some solutions are overengineered. Um and basically are in search of problems kind of like you can you can you know kind of cross that over to ZK almost. Um you know I think that's an interesting interesting uh parallel uh at least in the early days of ZK. Uh, tons of smoke and mirrors, but this

creates the excitement needed to capitali capitalize actual winners. Okay. Um, to me it's the other side of the gold Bitcoin trade. Math PL, let's go. What's going on, Math? Yo, guys, if you're in the Twitter chat, there's a little button below you can click, you can write. I'll respond to all your questions, thoughts. If you're on the YouTube chat, same thing. Um, throw me a question, throw me a thought. Uh, I'm going to keep scrolling the feed and, uh, I'm happy to talk to you guys about whatever you want. uh questions, thoughts on market, on what I'm doing on the rollup on the new rollup token that we just uh kind of announced but didn't really announce. Um, here is the other side of the revenue meta that I was talking to you guys about, which is

basically this um this uh kind of like thesis where look, if we're just going to be uh um sorry guys, I'm just going to uh if we're just going to be kind of ascribing value to tokens that you should buy that are generating revenue, then well, if you look around, this is the problem. So the problem is you've got Polka Dot in the top 50 coins. The problem is you've got coins that generate zero revenue in the top 50 coins. That's the problem, guys. Like that is very clearly the problem. So um yeah,

let's refresh here. We got some some uh uh USD or CurveUSD takes #cam. [ __ ] off scammers. Oh my god. Wow. Okay, guys. We got to close these comments out. Uh, Twitter on Twitter. Let's get those hidden and deleted. That's [ __ ] You can't be You can't be so mad at the guy cuz you didn't make it in the sale. That's [ __ ] Um, in fact, let's check in on the sale. Oh, it's live. Wow. While supplies last.

I bet I bet it's gone. I bet it's sold out. I bet it's sold out. I got to sign in real quick to crack and check it. Ah, I don't want to do that right now. I don't want to show anything there. Um, sold out in 1 second. Do you sell to each other? Wow. Yield basis sale sold out in a second. Wow. Wow. I I got to check our our sale if we made it in on Legion. I didn't get an email. How do I even check that?

Wow, you've been a partially approved. If you withdraw your funds manually before I can assure you funds are Yes. Boom. Boom. Bang. Let's go. Yes. The rollup has been partially approved. That means that we're not going to get our full allocation, but that means that we'll get something. Bang. Let's go. Shout out to Michael and the team. Wow. This sale sold out in freaking seconds. I knew this was going to happen. They were they need a lot of push back for that. Um, wow. Kraken first sale, guys. We got it. That's going to be a huge winner for us. I

guarantee that thing's going to cook. Let's go, man. Let's go. Wow. Look at that. The rollup community got it, dude. Clip this, Nero. Clip this, bro. So, here's the lore. I met Fab, the founder of Legion in Bali like a year ago. Literally a year ago. We hung out. I stayed with him. We surf every day for like a month and a half. He's an absolute shredder. We had a great time. He's we're we're in the water one day surfing a break called Outside Corner and it's freaking 8 foot.

I got like a seven foot gun board or like eight foot like kind of gun style stepup board which is like a long skinny surfboard because these waves are like [ __ ] just terrifying and it's like this long right and I I or long left. I only got like one or two sick waves but I just remember sitting out there with Fab and we were like, "Bro, how does the roll up and Legion work together?" And so we came to this like referral idea and basically um I sent this referral code to all of my uh people in my telegram chat under my uh under my personal Andy's journal which is like a rollup and Andy kind of group and basically they all signed up with our link and so they got they got listed as

the rollup community on Legion and Yield Basis just gave my guy Y we m here in allocation because he's in our group. That is awesome. That is so cool that if you're in our Legion group, you get access to the some of the best sales in the market. Wow. Um, wow. That is [ __ ] cool. I'm stoked. Um, that is cool. That is cool. So, um, wow. Awesome. Congrats to Wii. Um, big congrats. Um, man, I'm stoked for you.

That's awesome. I'm going to send that link in my Telegram actually. Just ship it over. TG members eating Bang. Let him cook. Let him cook. Cool. That's awesome. That's [ __ ] great. That's so cool. So, I think we're going to probably end up getting like a 10K or 15K allocation. I went for the straight 25K allocation.

Um but but yeah, this is this is just so great. I'm stoked for you. Um, wow. Awesome. I'm going to retweet that, dude. That's just so cool. Family eats. I know. I'm just going to leave it. I'll I'll leave it for now. Um, shout out to that guy, though. I sent it in in in my chat. Dude, this was so funny when Michael from Curve said trillions. He was like trillions. Trillions. I am trying to make trillions man. Man, that's crazy, dude. What a sale. They had the biggest sale of the year and we had him on the show. Welcome to Rollup TV, baby. Welcome to Rollup TV.

Wow, these guys are like behind a glass door or something. Like they can't even hang out cuz they're so special. Yes, guys, this is important. If there's there's no yield basis, US government is shut down. That's why the market's pumping. Oh my god. Market's ripping, dude. Wow. Let's go. Wow. Let's go, dude. Yes sir. Yes sir. You you you you can see my level of DGEN by my uh red list here of like the things that I track on a daily basis.

You can see like what I own slash what I'm paying attention to. It's pretty funny. Pretty pretty funny. Wow. ETH's flying. We're going to go to alltime highs, guys. Strap in. Strap in. This is a cool clip, dude. Nero, we got to get rid of all these freaking comments, dude. These guys are just straight garbage AI spammers. We got to get and we got to hide all these. Leo, tell Nero to get get these out of here. Those are just those are just not not it, man. Let's go to Robbie's page. That guy

uh had a had a week in in token 249. [ __ ] you. Hire Arthur Hayes, baby. This guy, we got the full pod dropping probably early next week. Um that should be a great one. We've had Arthur on three times this year already. Good. Alexander, the boy, Aridium Eagle. Wow. I'm gonna tweet that. No love to my boy Aridium. Just trolling Robbie. Singapore, baby.

It looks sick. Looks sick. Looks freaking sick. Newton has re-entered with a lot. Double zero is launching. We have them on the show tomorrow. This is a good tweet. Never heard of this. I agree with this. Grock launch a token on base.

No, that's March. Dude, what are we talking about? Cled. Oh, that's cool. I think we had them on the show. Lighter over Hyperlid, bro. There's no token, dude. Oh my gosh. This guy's going for accumulating Adam. Adam, is it 2021? Lol. Oh my gosh, guys. This is going to be insane. We're about to get the approval of so many ETFs. Salana. Oh my gosh.

Litecoin, Doge, XRP, Cardano. So, if you guys didn't check our episode with um the Canary Capital Founder, I'll pull it up for you. Um, obviously I'm not going to play it, but maybe I can just play actually the one part that he talked about that I think that is really relevant here. So, hold on, give me a sec. Basically, this guy came on the show and was like, "Altcoin ETFs are are primed to launch like imminently." um here uh has kind of laid out with regards to

these treasury companies. I think a lot of people in the space were surprised at the way in which that this kind of market cycle, if you will. Also, isn't our new frame so much better than the old one? You mentioned that when the Ethereum ETFs came out, you know, you thought there would be little demand for those outside of just, you know, without staking, let's just say. And you know, I think a lot of us thought that a lot of the demand for the market to move this cycle, let's call it two years ago, was going to just come through these ETFs was going to come through these 401ks. Really, I mean, what Eric and a lot of others have realized is that a lot of the demand is actually coming through these more treasury type vehicles. Um, you guys at Canary have, I mean, I don't

know exactly h how many, but probably upwards of a couple dozen ETFs filed uh for various assets. And I think a lot of us in the market are kind of waiting on the floodgates to open, right? A lot of us haven't really been able to uh participate in debt. Also, they've only really affected the top couple assets in a meaningful way at least up to this point. Um what I'm getting at here is I think a lot of the would love to just understand if you had an estimated timeline as well or any predictions and thoughts there.

Yeah, look, I'll give a guesstimate because the reality is is I know nothing. Okay. Um, but the the the bigger reality is is I know some things and what we do know is that the exchanges have filed for generic listing standards with the SEC. Uh, that is going through public comment period. They're going through revisions as we speak. And there is an expectation in the market um this again this isn't for certain that those generic listing sta um standards should get approved sometime by the end of this month and then uh the SEC will work on ways to actually uh open up for tokens that qualify under the generic listings uh

standards to be launching an ETF. So my expectation is probably sometime in October is the right date for anything that has a current US futures market. So that's the that's the first stage of these generic listing samples. Uh there were conversations earlier for other uh qualifications that were more quantitative such as market cap and trading volume in the US and it seems like that has been put on hold for now but there is an expectation that those more quantitative measures will probably come out you know three to four months after the first round of generics come

out. So, uh, so look, if you just look at CME, Coinbase, um, those are the probably the two biggest markets for futures for crypto. Anything that's been, uh, that's had a futures market for over six months would qualify once those get approved. So, um, again, my expectation is sometime in October, maybe pushing into November, and then next year, probably in the spring is when we get the the new standards, which would include uh a lot of the other things that we're working on. Very cool.

That is an accelerated timeline. Um, well, in my opinion, I mean, I'll just I'll just say this. There's a few things that probably should have should have been approved a little earlier. um you know but um you know it it is what it is when you're working with the government. Yeah, we we've seen that. Um I I I have a question kind of for for both of you guys, but I'm sure you have you you have some unique perspectives on it. Um in ST staking in general, we had uh a live stream actually at Permissionless in New York. We had uh asked a couple really smart guys, Tun from Robot Ventures. uh he sort of explained, look, we're seeing staking yields go down across the board.

Um he said he was he was uh bearish on built businesses that were built around staking revenue uh LSTs protocol uh confirmed ETFs uh the the timeline was just confirmed by the way. Let me play that one more time. Standards to be launched in an ETF. So my expectation is probably sometime in October. My expectation is sometime in October. My expectation is sometime in October. My expectation is sometime in October. This is the CEO of Canary Capital, which if we come back here, if we come back here, Canary, Canary, Canary, I think this guy knows what he's talking about. The CEO of Canary Capital is literally saying

October guys guys guys. Higher higher higher higher higher. CEO of Canary Capital. Bang, bang, bang. Generational bull run starts sometime. Dude, the generational bull run has been going on for like six plus months already. Like, alt season has been on.

I'm not sure which generational bull run we're referring to here, wrecked, but stay off that one. Yeah, everyone's pissed about yield basis, guys. I don't I'm check I'm checking the chat. I don't see anybody in the chat. All good. If you guys have anything that you want to go over, let let me know. Oh my gosh, bro. This is bullish.

This is bullish. Oh my gosh, that's aggressive. Eric Trump in Singapore. This is bullish. Hold. Don't show mer. He'll be like, "You can't count active addresses or active accounts." Bears are [ __ ] Yeah, they are. They're absolutely [ __ ] Absolutely freaking fried. Those guys are.

Wow, look at that. Poly market got Wall. Very cool. Look at that, dude. Everyone Oh, the streaming category is just going to keep exploding. Um, it is just going to keep exploding. This is just this is just something, dude. This is Mike's right, dude. Mike is absolutely spot on here. All right, guys. I'm going to wrap. Um, we got another stream tomorrow. This was fun. This was really fun. Um, this is one of my favorite ones of the This is my favorite stream of the week for sure.

Um, so yeah, I'm gonna go solo shot, closing remarks, and um, yeah, we'll see you guys. We'll see you guys tomorrow. Uh, it should be a fun stream as well. Um, really glad that we got to get Laura and Michael on today. Scroll the feed a bit as well. See you guys tomorrow and much love. Peace.