The Rollup TV: Newton, Open World, Aptos

Transcript

Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat [Music] up here.

Hey, hey, hey. Heat. [Music] Heat.

Heat. [Music] Heat. Yeah.

[Applause] [Music] Heat. [Music] Bang. >> All righty, guys. What's going on? >> Hype $55 upside your head. That's what's going on, Andy.

>> Dude, pump out fund listed on Binance and somewhere else. Up. We have new developments in the USDH proposal. >> What do we have? >> We have the requirement from Hyperlquid itself to be the quote asset of its markets. >> Oh yeah, they also pulled out of the validator thing as well. >> Uh explain that >> uh Zoomer account. Hyperlquid removes team hype staked with validators from waiting in USDH vote opening up to a pure governance vote. After this change, native markets weight drops from 75 to 66% opening a door for PAX a possible

Paxos win. Native markets surged to 90% last night. So yeah, definitely interesting. >> Yeah. Okay. And here uh from Stephen.h uh this must have been pulled from the Discord. to PSA to USDH biders. The preliminary rules to become a quote asset. Uh there's a three-year commitment of staking 200,000 hype. >> Wow. To become a quote asset. >> To become the quote asset, which is de facto the stable coin for Hyperlid. Um obviously this is this is more than just a ticker now. uh now that they've dropped these requirements, this is basically uh the requirements to be incorporated deeper into the hyperlquid

protocol. >> So at about >> interesting >> $54 and change, this is $10 million. >> Yeah, >> almost 11 million. almost $1 million to stake and therefore uh deploy the USDH stable coin as the quote asset. Um obviously then it's going to be the most utilized collateral on Hyperlid. Uh few other requirements for becoming a permissionless spot quote asset. Uh some some other kind of technical details.

Decimals of eight, size decimals of two, zero deployer fee, >> uh 200k staked hype. Like we said, subject to the following slashing criteria, a peg mechanism of a price of one USD. Uh future network upgrade could increase the scope. So, I'd imagine that $200,000, excuse me, the $200,000 hype, which is about $11 million of stake, would get slashed uh in order to defend the peg of one US dollar. >> Uh the quote, which would be USDH, whoever wins it USDC market, should have 100k USDC size on both sides within the price range. Uh so they're ask actively asking for the biders to put up liquidity to defend the peg against

USDC. This is all all starting to materialize in what launching a a brand new stable coin of this scale looks like in practice. >> And then so that's within 2,000th of a dollar. Uh they're asking for 100k in USDC with that super tight margin to defend the peg and then a million dollars in USDC size on both sides within a cent. >> Yeah. >> So effectively a million dollars. >> You have to send me that tweet, dude. >> Happy to. It's a steven.HL.

>> Uh I just sent it to you there. >> Um >> we've got a a a great lineup of guests today. We've got Sean from uh Magic Newton. We've got uh Stephen from Open World and we've got uh Ash from Apttos. Uh should be a fun stream and looking forward to just having Sean on first um and just kind of going over the the latest that they've been working on with the Newton policy protocol. Also have Stephen talk more about some of the legal side of things and then uh into the Appos RWA ecosystem. So yeah, we'll get we'll get Sean up here uh get him on the stream. It's been uh some time since we've caught up with with Sean. Uh but pretty stoked to have him on uh chat

about uh all of the updates from the Magic Newton side of things and yeah, let's get Sean up. Sean is up. >> Sean is up. Welcome to the show. Sean, it's good to have you back. >> Yeah, it's good to be back. It's uh feels like a long time. >> It has. It has been a while. It feels like it's been a while since we did that podcast in New York and then the the stream closer to mainet and token launch. Um, man, Sean, let's just check in. How how how's the last couple months been from a from a protocol perspective, from a being a founder perspective? What have you been up to? How's the how's the post token uh kind of uh uh you know, you got the mainet and launch behind you now?

>> Uh so it's heads down building and cooking and as um you've known we haven't launched the mainet yet. We launched the token um that uh is used to kind of secure the upcoming like mainet launch. Um but we're heads down getting ourselves ready uh for the Newton protocol. You know, as as you know, we've uh we've launched this sort of a uh a end toend verifiable agent experience for people to um to try out what that future looks like. Right. But now um we are building kind of the protocol that's needed to enable um more advanced use cases like like for example

uh there's a lot of misconception of the Newton protocol uh as a kind of agent builders but under all of that it's actually a decentralized policy engine right and what I mean by that is um to explain it you know the internet is sort of powered by all these invisible rules right um underneath it's called policy and they are kind of constantly evolving and it's secure on deciding rules like um what movies you can stream you know what payments gets marked as a fraud which employee can access which data so these are dynamic rules that's constantly updating but they actually need to be more expressive right in the world of onchain agents especially when

they touch people's digital assets and money so we take that trust and security um as paramount, right? So before we can uh before more agent use cases can be enabled like that policy engine is absolutely critical. Um, and we're talking about um policy engine where that can allow agent to trade up to um, you know, let's say $1,000 of this token when the market volatility is low or perform certain actions based on offchain like real-time market data which is not possible before, right? So, um, so it's a huge leap. There's a lot of work there and we gota make sure that

um, it's working, right? So um but also as we were building this policy engine um uh a lot of the teams like wait a minute you can use this policy engine for institutional capital that's coming on chain as well because it's such a essential um primitive right in onchain. So not only you can use it for like agent guard rails but also compliance as a service right um so you can actually create tokens that's secured by policies let's say this token can only be transferred to if certain jurisdictional filters can be met right so those rules can also be encoded in the policy so um

so that just kind of expanded uh on the imagination and we're developing several PC's u to showcase the proco uh capabilities as well. So a lot lot lot has happened since we launched. >> Yeah. So maybe you could uh give us a bit a bit of a background on this how this policy kind of concept came about. Right. I think a lot of people learned about Newton from the beta launch uh kind of bringing out this verified agent capabilities for the DCA product. um you know and and I think you guys are building in the background as you've been explaining here just now this Newton protocol idea maybe m maybe you could help us unpack a bit of how you

see Agentic AI actually operating in this policy uh protocol perspective with stable coins with RWAS with tokenized assets how do you see the demand from institutional people uh you know coming on chain why they need this this product and you know maybe some tangible examples as to like how this could actually work out for these types of of of categories. >> Yeah. Well, so so a major part of what we built and our focus wasn't really on okay capabilities of AI agents because you know that's advancing so fast.

There's like things as open source is going to be pretty abundant in terms of agent capabilities. Where we focus on a lot is the trust and security aspect of it. So the guard rails for the AI agent. So u the policy engine is what we're building to provide that guard rail right for AI agent not just for kind have the PC's that we develop but also an ecosystem of agents as well right so um and um essentially right this policy engine um is going to be able to serve the needs from two uh major trends right that's happening in crypto. One is progressively more like agent agentic

finance agentic commerce agents coming on chain touching people's digital assets definitely needs to be regulated definitely needs to be compliant and secure right through these guardrails um but also u institutions coming on chain as well and I would say one of the bigger issues is like it's lacking composability right because um these are kind of more like like well garden approaches rather than kind of >> this compliance that's baked in onchain because you know it wasn't something to consider before like everything is purely onchain now the world is coming on chain it's becoming more mainstream

so now there's actually more need uh for that right so um and to list some kind examples right of what we're thinking about uh number one is you know these when you look at AI agents uh a lot of it are not really autonomous, right? Like the human still needs to be in the loop um to confirm every transaction. But what if the user can actually set uh these rules that leverages offchain data, right? Like this real-time market data like market volatility, sentiment, you know, dynamic list of tokens um that's based on like a you research document for example, right? So, so the

user or the developer of the agents will be able to set these rules and then just trusting the agent can execute those um in a way that the that is aligned right with the user intention. So, so it's going to be um if we were to extrapolate kind of the user experience um so a lot of there's a lot of like chat based right interactions going on with hum in the loop but the ultimate right user experience is going to be kind of it's almost like a defi vault where user can deposit funds in a vault and the agent can take what's in the vault and does things automatically right um >> following the policy engine, right? So,

so this is kind of the the extrapolated user experience, but that would be the most convenient, right, for an end user. So, it will be able to kind of do that almost magically for users while providing that layer of trust that's needed for this type of automated experience, right? So, so that's kind of the the concept on the agent side. Um but also when we come to like um stable coins, so you could build uh potentially like policy aware stable coins where uh the stable coin issuer can embed rules directly into the token at the contract level, right? So you're you're turning them into like programmable and policy aware uh financial instruments. So for

example something uh more straightforward would be like enforcing KYC and AML check right for transfers and redemptions uh you can block transfers to sanctioned or high-risk addresses you can implement dynamic um transfer caps or rate limits and and so on right so um so that's on the stable coin and it's uh very similar to potential RWA use cases >> um so these tokens will be able to carry uh almost kind of like these legal constraints directly on chain, right? So you could do things like investor eligibility uh redemption logic or um you know regional exclusions uh but not sacrificing composability right as per

D5 protocols. So so there's a lot of various use cases um that can be enabled with the policy engine uh in all these fast growing like new categories in crypto. So, so that's why, you know, we're like, okay, we have to 100% like focus on getting this protocol um to be able to service all these um increasing needs. >> Sean, I'm just curious to double click on something that you mentioned about the the policy engine that you've embedded into this protocol and you're discussing how flexible in general it is to some of these different applications, stable coins, RWAs. makes a ton of sense why that those policies are important for those asset classes. But in the

market, we've seen a lot of these >> uh asset issuers go and launch their own chain. We're seeing stable chains come up, USDC, we were talking uh with with someone yesterday from Circle and and they've launched ARC, right? And so I'm just curious from a technical standpoint, what is the fundamental difference of doing some of this at their own chain level versus doing some things from a thirdparty protocol, bringing that in to enforce some of the policies that like KYC, AML, these other things that you've mentioned. What's the technical difference doing it at the protocol level versus building, you know, an an underlying chain for some of these things?

I think I think people are taking kind of a more custom and larger effort approach just because something like this doesn't exist. Um and and so yeah, I think I think it's like to bring awareness and and so people don't kind of fragment the space even more and and then putting all of these efforts on like customizing, right? because you know we're still operating on the paradigm that's established by Ethereum you know uh when they launched on smart contracts but at that time there weren't like AI agents or like institutions that's coming on chain at this scale right so um but that transition kind happened very quickly uh but we're still

kind of operating uh on that like historical paradigm um so I'm hoping through this that we can help more people come on chain with less effort, right? Especially from institutions. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the uh I think ultimately the core concept that we're trying to get across here is we're we're trying to create a compliant and safe way for the biggest capital in the world to come on chain. And I think that that's when you put it in in the sense of understanding what these, you know, teams and entities need, you start to see the the the need for some of these guard rails, for some of these policies

to be implemented as a as as a standalone product. And um you know, I think that I think that that is what's going to get the the institutional capital excited. And perhaps that's what gets the builders excited, too. You know, you you guys have been building a developer network for some time. you know, have created over 50 million wallets, worked with over 200,000 developers, Poly Market, Helium, Wallet Connect, etc. You know, from the the from the actual builder perspective, how will builders use this product? Why will they be excited to build uh using Newton's uh policy product and how will you kind of uh inspire them to build in this new way um from the from the Newton

perspective? Yeah, that's a that's a great question. Um, I I would say there's really two things, right? One is uh to make it as seamless as possible, right? Um, for the developers um and the second one is making it fun uh kind of like playing Legos, right? Uh but like to start with the first we always practiced a philosophy even when we kind of pioneered inbed wallet back in 2018 was uh this idea of so so there were kind of concepts around oh so you can provide embed wallet but you had to use this custom API right um to integrate uh back then but we felt like it's actually

very needed to kind of embed the wallet so to inject it uh into the ether and web3js library. So if your DAP is already working with MetaMask, it's like a couple lines of code away from just adding uh our embed wallet. So we want to make it as seamless as possible. U so we're doing the same thing with policies and um we have looked around at different standards and there's one that really came um to our attention called RIGO. Uh so it's a very popular policy standard that's used in high stakes like infrastructure uh uh kind of uh configurations um and that's used in

like Netflix CERN Goldman Sachs. Not only is a great standard but also um it's very easy to write so it's kind of like you can use JSON it's like very uh comprehensive um very expressive and easier to write and understand. So, so that's the standard that we're picking. Um, whether you're a new developer trying to pick up like a new policy language, uh, or you already know how to program in in Rio, right? You can use use that. And then the second idea is um, uh, make it fun like playing Legos, right? So, um, so you want to make it modular, right? So, these um, policies are essentially a collection of

permissions, right? that you can kind of piece together and they're deployed onchain and you can uh kind of bring these templates or already established permissions into constructing your policies. So it's going to be like a lot of fun just like smart contracts. You have a smart contract here and there and they're all interacting together. Um same thing uh when I was working at Docker, you can have all these Docker containers working together. So, um I would say developers kind of like that piecing those things together like Legos uh or the other analogy is um uh like IKEA, right? Uh setting up IKEA furniture. Some people really like doing that. Um so, but but you have to not do everything for them. You do enough so

it's not really frustrating, right? And when they piece it together, there's a lot of like sense of achievement and and and they think it's more valuable, right? um that now they've played a part in setting it up. So, so there's like all these things but uh on top of that uh we'll be building PC's either ourselves or with the community. We'll be running hackathons and obviously um distribution channel with the Magic Labs developers as well. >> Yeah. And you you've uh you you've also left a lot of inspiration and room for imagination because like you said there's not always you know they they can piece it together themselves.

There's a strong sense of fulfillment and achievement from that. But it also leaves a lot of room for creativity. You know, you guys are are very smart, but you know, the collective intelligence and imagination of all the developers out there can extend this even further. They can come up with use cases that are are totally novel. >> Um, but you have seen quite a bit from your experience in web 2. You mentioned that you know essentially the entire internet is built on these protocols and these policies that are all interconnected. H how how have you seen in your experience some of the policies that are that are still in place in web two? Like h how has those evolved? Maybe you could speak to what you've seen and the story that has has sort of transpired in the web two world as it relates to policies

and and how these things keep the internet glued together. H why haven't we seen that in web 3 yet? >> And and generally how do you think this is going to this is going to go? Do you think it's going to follow web two in a a similar evolution or generally how should we kind of think about the similarities and the differences between policies in the web two world versus policies in the web 3 world? >> I think I would say uh the policies in web 3 world will be more meaningful than policies in in web two. >> But currently policies in web 3 doesn't have what doesn't have like par right with the policies >> we're still catching up.

>> Yeah. So we're still catching up and a major part of that is to create it's it's not like only code as law right uh but also these rules are are dynamic right they actually fetch from datas in the database or various data sources uh or regulations that's updating and changing so all of these things are actually highly u uh dynamic and constantly changing so but but web three rule isn't really designed right to um to uh service that right kind of dynamic nature of these rules. So so that's the parody that that needs that's the gap

that needs to be bridged uh first but where web 3 can bring uh a lot more is the enforcement side. So in web two you can't really automate enforcement right for these policies. it's kind of like up to um kind of people, right? And and trust um but in in web 3 um you know there are like economic incentives, economic security, right? that on um you know rewards and slashing uh you can actually enforce a lot of these u these rules uh through economic incentives as well which I think it's like you're automating the constitution and the court right uh through these infrastructure which I think is a huge

huge deal right and it's it's it it fundamentally improves the efficiency uh of um not just like checking discard rails but also enforcing man. So, so there's smart contracts, right? There's this this idea that we don't need a third party to enforce uh onchain, you know, I think Shiron from Ian calls them credible commitments. It's all about kind of what smart contracts can enable. And so you're saying that in addition to smart contracts in this in this future world where where that there's more of this agentic finance, we need an additional layer of policy on top of smart contracts that allows essentially

agentic, you know, agents to interact with each other within a given subset of rules. Now I'm curious like does this subset of rules apply to humans as well or are you guys building this out for an agent to agent economy human to agent human to human? How how do you actually see this uh like like who would want who is the core user of the policy a and kind of who is the policy enforcing uh for >> right um I I would say it because it's such a primitive right um for for onchain this policy that it not it's not just like for agents right it's for humans it's for like developers who want

to leverage this primitive to achieve the type of um security and trust and and compliance right um that they're looking for. So I would say we're the protocol is agnostic right but when we are developing uh PC's to kind of inspire the community and developers um we do have focus right around like uh AI agent use cases and stable coin RWA use cases. So, so those are the c the the areas we're going to start inspiring. But let's say someone else found a use case in just pure DeFi, right? Um that's still um a use case that the the uh protocol would like to support, right?

So um so that's uh kind of the beautiful part with building an an ecosystem and a protocol. It's almost like open source. People can take it any way that they want. Um and and we are kind of stewards of the vision and and making sure that we're we invest resources to support the categories where I think it's the most useful. But if someone else comes in and say, "Hey, you know, you guys should look here, we're we're definitely going to um to take a look." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I I think this sets up nicely because I'm curious about the go to market plan and some of the ecosystem that you already have built with Magic Labs because a lot of times part of the best adoption of this technology is sort of showcasing what is possible because

you guys already have the intimate knowledge of this technology yourselves. Other people it's a little bit less familiar. They need to be like you said shepherd and stewarded. So how will you start to massage this Newton protocol into the existing Magic Labs ecosystem? >> Yeah. So the fortunate part is um when a a solution becomes more mature let's say embed wallet um a lot of people started asking for customizations in like for various scenarios. Uh and one thing that they tend to ask for is do you have a policy engine? So um but generally policy engines are like

centralized and like it's web two right um kind of um policy engines that's kind of fragmented right in different st like each companies does it like a little bit differently whereas now we have the opportunity to have like to use this uh open agent policy standard RIO um and sort of apply that uh in a trust minimized way which I think is going to be like a huge change to how people are going to think about um policy engines. Um so yeah, naturally people are asking for for policies and we are kind of figuring out like how do we bridge the gap, right? Is it a module uh like a policy module as part of a smart

contract or is it kind of like a D5 vault that's backed by policies, right? So depending on what customers want um we'll be able to kind of build these different types of interfaces for developers so they can consume the policies um protocol that we that we built. So, so, so yeah. >> Nice. Sean, I have a question from the uh from the community actually and it's kind of tied into another another question that we had which was um you know just around kind of how how you plan what what Newton's cooking next. We got pumps pumpkin yapstein is curious what what Newton's cooking next how you plan to stand out and keep

users engaged in this wave. I think better asked, you know, what kind of consumer experience are you looking for with the Newton protocol? Uh kind of what what has evolved since we last spoke? What's coming next? How do you guys plan to stand out? Uh we got a question here from Pump Hustler Pumpkin Yap. >> That's an awesome name. I I would say our primary focus right now is get to mainet as quickly as possible, right? So then it could and then it can enable the consumer experiences right that we're talking about. Um but like mentioned before the protocol is a policy protocol which means it should feel like magic in the

background because like as an end user you're not configuring like this this page of policies right uh having to do that is like a lot of um burden right on the user experience. So we want to uh so it all operates in the background. uh but uh we do want to help consumers sort of visualize um policies in a great way. So I've been kind of tweeting these is because I can't wait because there's uh so I've been tweeting about uh the explorer that we're building uh for the policy engine.

Um so kind of like a block explorer but specifically uh purposely designed for the policies. So you can visualize these policies and sort of check uh on your on yourself whether any intent that's executed align with the policy what the policies are and and and we're doing a lot of kind of design iterations um to help people understand this new concept right because um like we've been throwing around like oh should we make it look like a UPS delivery you know kind of kind of view so we go into a lot of details on kind of educating and showcasing this new concept Um but when it comes to like agents um we want to like like like we don't want

like middle steps right like we want to go all the way we want to build a solution that's the ultimate solution um and to us when it comes to agent it has to be autonomous right so therefore the policy engine has to exist to um provide these expressive guard rail so we can provide the simplest user experience possible whether we build the agent or someone else build the agent and that is just depositing money somewhere and more comes out the other end, right? Like that's that's out that's the ultimate user experience, right? So, uh everything in the middle is feels like extra steps, right? So, it's a pretty like radical view, but we want to be there with the right infrastructure, right? And so um and then when we come

when it comes down to like policy aware assets you know like the stable coins RWAS we talk about it should just be like working with any other assets right for for the end user um while having the guarantee that you know that is uh trusted and compliant and secure. So so being that invisible and feeling like magic has always been kind of our consumer like philosophy as well >> of course. Yeah, I mean I think I saw a clip of you saying that the best technology, you know, you you don't feel it when you use it essentially. Um, and I think that that kind of goes Sean, I got to ask you about uh KBW. I don't think you're going to be there. Um, I know a lot of the team is going to be

there, but the rollup and magic are hosting a an event secure the future. We've got some awesome partners, ZK Sync, Open Ledger, Union, um, Botchi, and maybe one more. Um, and yeah, I mean, we're stoked on it. Uh, I think I think it's going to be a really fun event. I mean, m maybe just give us some insight into the Korean market, right? Like you guys have been doing some work over there. What do you what do you think is important for Magic uh Newton out in KBW? How excited are you for this event, even if you're not going to be able to attend? You know, talk us through some of the Korea stuff that you guys have been doing. Oh, I say I say our our team would be much more well

wellversed than than I do there. But I think a lot of it uh comes down to building that like in-person relationship, right, with with the community. Um and and so yeah, that's why we're very much invested in uh the being there in person uh and uh and being able to uh uh kind yeah talk to the community in general because it's not like super super large but it's very impactful. Everyone does does go very deep, right? Just in terms of like in um looking into and researching these projects. So um so I would say it's like one of the more um kind of stringent uh audiences or or thorough audiences uh

even. So so definitely like um it's like a very great way to um talk to people there and iterate on like different ideas to make it even more thoughtful and robust. So >> yeah. Well, I hope you're fired up for this event. I think it's going to be a great time. I think Rob's going to be there. A lot of the team will be there. Uh it's going to be the event of the week. One last thing for you Sean. >> Um curious what you expect the timeline to be to actually really see agentic commerce happening on chain. What is the what is your estimated updated timeline here for when we really see agents interacting onchain with other agents and creating more uh you know volumes

across different dexes using just pure agentic workflows. I think I'm always optimistic on these timelines. Uh but but I would say there's some dependencies before that can happen. So when we're talking about um agentic commerce, for example, uh in crypto uh are like, "Oh, wait. Just have a wallet and use stable coin and you're good to go." But people in web 2 are thinking about like virtual credit cards, right, as a way for agents to interact. And it's like more expensive in many ways. Um, and that's because like the concept of wallets aren't as ubiquitous, right, in in that world. Um, but with this kind of um

new interest, right, in agent commerce, people are looking at like wallet solutions more now. So people are kind of asking around about, hey, uh, can magic wallet support these use cases, right? Um and so it's like yeah like it would help make a lot um a lot of these transition uh transactions much more efficient with a wallet and stable coins and once users are on boarded using wallets and uh stable coins it becomes much easier to automate these things with an agent right um so so I think I think yeah all the things are lining up and and we're building kind of the right primitives for it to come together uh so I'm like pretty excited about this trend

that's happening. Um, and then when it comes down to um to uh kind of agentic finance and agent doing investments, I think a lot of it comes down to trust if we're talking about like mainstream users. >> Yeah. >> Because it's mostly like what like agent t I don't tr I don't trust that. Right. Um but in web 3 like you know we're used to being uh being more courageous right with with what we do. But uh in web two that's the trust is a huge barrier. So that's why we're very focused on moving the needle there. Like what does it take to convince someone that the agent is safe and and can be trusted. So that's why like this guard rail and policy

engine is so important for us and I'm hoping by our efforts and our focus we can help that future happen faster. So >> I I think the parallel here is autonomous driving. Like a lot of people I think are scared of the car driving itself, but at a certain point once this technology progresses, it's going to be safer for the car to drive itself rather than for us to intervene. >> Similar to that, >> same thing with money, right? Like at a certain point, it's going to be safer for AI to manage our money than us to manage itself. >> Yeah. They're going to check every transaction, you know, and just the blindly clicking around.

>> Yeah. There's no Yeah, exactly. Sean Lee Newton policy protocol. We're going to give you some confetti, man. We got a big party in Korea. >> You're I'm not going to be there. You're not going to be there. I have a lot of FOMO. Rob's going to be there. It's going to be fun. Thanks for spending some time with us today. Uh and really stoked on what you guys are building and uh we'll see you on the next show sometime soon, man. >> Yeah, likewise. Likewise. Always great to catch up. >> All righty, Sean. >> Thank you, Sean. >> Thanks, man.

>> Bye. >> Peace out, brother. All righty, Rob. Are you ready for the agents to manage your wallet? Cuz I am. >> Uh, I'm ready for the agents to manage my wallet. Yeah, I thought you said something else there. But agents, >> the agents, >> um, >> they're coming for you. >> I mean, I think if they have the proper policies in place, then they're going to do quite well. Next up, we've got uh Stephen Stefan uh coming on from Open World, co-founder there. um and uh ex blockchain lawyer, ex- big law and the White House. I'm pretty curious to hear about his previous experience um and then how ultimately led him to crypto.

It's going to be our first time meeting uh Stfan. So, let's get him up and uh welcome him to the show. >> Yeah, man. Let's do it. Hey. Yes, sir. Stefan. Stefan. Stefan. We're we're gonna get you up in just a really quick sec. throw you on the screen and we'll be firing. Uh we're going to talk all things law, DATs, tokenized markets, the work you guys are doing with open world launches and more. Thank you for for for bearing with us in the background just for one more second.

It's the live production here. It's the Rollup TV, guys. We're on guest two. We're going to run through. We got a fun fun rest of the stream today. Let's get Stfan up when we can uh and get rocking and rolling and should be a should be a fun conversation. I was looking at I actually pulled up Stefan's LinkedIn before this which is a rare a rare website uh usage of you know here on the here in the in the cartoon PFP world of of crypto Twitter. We spend more time here there and saw some interesting stuff uh from from there. So yeah his takes while while we're waiting just a sec to get him up. Quick look at some of the markets guys. Um things are looking pretty good out there. I mean, uh,

Ethereum and Bitcoin look strong, look ready for a push. We got Fed rates next week likely going to get cut 25 pips, maybe 50 pips. Um, so markets look better than they have for a while. Um, and yeah, pretty pretty strong sentiment shift in the market. You can feel today now where uh, you just over the last week, you can really feel the optimism kind of return. A lot of people were upset there when Bitcoin was under under 110K for a couple days. I think people people have forgotten where where where we've came from, right? And I mean looking looking at Bitcoin at 110K and being worried is uh you know you two three years ago you'd have been begging

for this. It's just so oftentimes the perspective is missed. Um and yeah guys I think we've got Stefan up now. Stfan thank you for the patience. Good to see I love that art behind you. It looks looks awesome. Looks very beat. >> Thank you very much. Hey Andy. Uh hey Rob. Very very nice to be here. Thanks for having me on. And uh I got to say huge congrats to you both. U actually you did some LinkedIn research. I'm not on LinkedIn that often. They they they pushed me on LinkedIn and we have a lot of great stuff to share. So I'm like, "Okay, I'll do it." But I did a little research on you guys and I watched your first ever video from way back in the day and I saw that video and where you guys are at and it's just it's awesome.

I I love to see all the the progress and and you guys deserve all the credit in the world. So, congratulations and kudos to both of you. >> I think you're the best guest you've ever had. >> What a place to start. I I think I remember wa re-watching that after we had done our hundth podcast or something like that. And it was it was just what a blast from the past. It was like it was like looking at looking at a baby picture which is kind of kind of funny. But man, you've had quite the story experience yourself. Um, in your Twitter bio it says you're ex uh White House ex big law and then ultimately you find yourself in crypto. Um, you've gotten to know us a little bit through our first podcast and and uh and done done your own research, but it's your

first time on the show. So, I'd love to hear kind of what what led you here. What's your story and and who is Stefont? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm I'm not as serious as I may sound from from a bio. Um, so yeah, I uh I grew up in a very heavy engineering household. My my father was actually a computer scientist and mathematician in the late 1960s. So it was all assembly machine language and I sort of grew up in in that. Um I was uh yeah I was a really really curious kid. I was one of those kids who was like taking apart my parents' VCR when they would go out to dinner just to sort of see how everything worked. So I was very very kind of engineering focused and I studied neuroscience and computer science funny enough uh as an undergrad and then I I end up uh you know doing a

stopover in graduate school as you often do in your 20s when you're sort of searching for what it is that really excites you and I studied international policy but I had the chance to take a couple of electives in the law school there and I ended up doing some research with a professor in the law school by the name of Eban Mowglin who was a computer scientist who then bec became a lawyer and he you know he's done he's done a lot of incredible things but I probably most famously and relevant for blockchain is he actually represented Phil Zimmerman in the early 90s and if you don't know and a lot of people don't really know the name but Phil Zimmerman invented PGP pretty good privacy which was the first open-source uh public key encryption software ever and it was like higher level grade than what the US

government even had and he was actually prosecuted for that um because high level encryption at the time was considered a type of armament just like a missile or bazooka and by open sourcing it by putting it onto a website in the early 90s um that was considered a type of trafficking. So he was actually the the feds busted down his door in in right outside of Denver and they arrested him and they charged him with all these very very serious crimes. And so Evan actually went and defended him pro bono for several years.

Ultimately got the case dismissed. But I think more broadly it was it was a one of the first but very big important fights in the privacy and open- source software movement. And so I got I was pretty inspired by that and actually went to my thesis advisor in grad school and I said, "Hey, what do I need to do to graduate early cuz I need to go to law school." And I had never really felt that urgency to do that. And and I had sort of always been encouraged that, hey, lawyers who understand tech, who come from a tech engineering background, could do things that really mattered.

and that like the you know Phil Zimmerman and all of the other pioneers in the open source software movement um you know those those all those those people were a huge beacon of inspiration for me and I you know sort of left grad school and went right into law school um yeah just really really passionate and focused on actually privacy and open-source software and I'd always been really interested in networks um and I played around on networks a lot hence my name pseudo lawyer pseudo is the super user command on a Unix space system. Uh, but it's also this play on words which is like I am a lawyer but at the same time I feel like I've always kind of been a little bit more than that and not really identified just as a lawyer. So

I'm sort of like a pseudo lawyer. Um, and your name >> well at the time you know that yeah like lawyers and tech I was probably like you know one of 50. So it was an easier easy username to to to get. Um, so yeah, and then uh and then actually my my I I'd known about Bitcoin, but um you know I always tell you always play this like game when you're at a bar or someone. People always say, you know, where what what price was Bitcoin at when you first discovered it? And I always say, you know, I think when I first discovered Bitcoin, >> it was probably about $250 or $300. And then people immediately say, well, congratulations to you. And I go, well, too bad I didn't really buy it.

Um, but I I was always really interested in the technology and but my first like serious dive into the technology was actually when I had the chance to work at the White House. I was still a law student at the time. Um, and I worked uh in the executive office of the president at the office of management and budget um but for the director of all of the entire federal government's privacy initiatives. And if you remember this is a couple of years after the Snowden leaks in 2012. Um and so the US and the European Union had this uh basically data sharing agreement um that was you know negotiated entered into by the department of comers uh commerce and the Europeans basically after the Snowden revelations they canled that agreement.

And so when I was at the White House end of 2015 into 2016 there was a new variant of that being discussed called the US EU privacy shield. And so I helped play a very small part in in what was a really really big effort. But one of the things that we were looking at were privacy preserving technologies and there was also really interesting stuff with connected cars and again this idea of how do you move information across networks and how do you keep that information safe and secure. So that's when I really started to and this was around yeah 2016 really started to get really really interested in in blockchain. And then I did a couple of yeah I graduated law school and I did I did a couple of clerkships and I you know started my career in in in big law

which was phenomenal. Um and you know did a lot of the regulatory financial regulatory privacy regulatory type of investigations and also product counseling for very very major technology companies that um that in ingest and and analyze a lot of different data. And then I um yeah I uh later rolled over to blockchain focused practice and helped really help design and build a lot of the sort of iconic projects at the time the last couple years. And after you know at that point I was about six and a half or so years into big law and um I found the environment like intellectually really interesting but I had this like burning

desire probably since I was a kid to like go out and build something. and I had the chance to uh build what's now open world uh along with uh my other co-founders and with with my um uh with my team and it's been yeah truly phenomenal experience. So that's sort of the the short of it if you will and sort of how I'm how I'm here now and I I still I still find it um yeah pretty remarkable to sort of like trace back that that that history. Well, there there's a lot to dig into. Uh, and I think you guys were involved in the uh pretty prominent story protocol that that recently went live. Um, I'm curious generally, how are you viewing this landscape? Uh, maybe we'll get into that

one a little bit more specifically. Um, and then I I'd love to wrap up with some of the the experience that you have in the privacy world. the SEC. I saw uh Commissioner Pierce come on uh the uh SBC uh Stanford blockchain conference out in California and talk about how privacy is so important to blockchain systems and how we need to implement it for stable coins. She told this funny story about her grandfather eating peanut butter with watermelon, how these two don't really seem quite intuitive, but they actually are quite complimentary. She equated that to to privacy uh and and token based payments.

Um and and so you have you know a long a long story history with privacy. Uh how are you viewing the current landscape and and you know when we're transitioning from web two systems to web 3 systems like how do you think we're going to avoid the dystopian world of you know CBDC's and that may get some traction over there in Europe. We we've taken a really privatized stablecoin approach here. But how can we make sure that even if you know the governments become you know really really in favor of this technology that they don't manipulate it to become surveillance states and we do maintain some semblance of privacy across these systems at large.

>> Yeah. I mean I think it's a really interesting question and a really interesting thing that people ought to think about. I mean it's that's a there's a lot of density in your question there but it I think it signals the importance of really digging deep and trying to understand all the different parts. So h let's see where to start. So I think I think as a like fundamental point privacy is not just now but I think has always been an incredibly part of our society and really you know the Europeans view privacy as a as a fundamental human right and and I think you know and and if you actually trace the lineage of you know uh legal doctrine even going as far back as the Magna Carta there are elements of

privacy that are baked into that. Um and now we we we have that here in the US to a lesser or great greater extent, right? And people can argue about you know should it be better or is it okay the way that it is but I think people would all fundamentally agree that it is a really really important thing. And I think what we you know if you if you trace back the lineage actually of of Bitcoin for example which is like this you know the the big bang moment for for blockchain technology. Um which by the way it's not the first blockchain. It's actually um first blockchain is actually from the early 90s that was invented at Bellor Labs by Stu Haber. he wrote a paper about it and it was actually to preserve a file sharing system so that

if I sent you a file over a network um you could verify that I didn't mess with that file and they did some really interesting things with hashing and then they put that on a blockchain. Another interesting fact is they still to this date um and I Stu is a an acquaintance of mine. I get coffee with him in New York from time to time but they they they publish the su successive hashes of that blockchain still to this day in the New York Times. So, it's like an analog blockchain and they actually you can go and you can pick up any copy of the the the New York Times um and you can actually find the hash for that. And the reason I asked him I asked him why'd you do that and he told me one he thought it'd be cool and two um broad broad

distribution and huge decentralization. Anyone can go pick up a copy of the New York Times almost anywhere in the world. So if you think about the the the if you if if you look at trace the the the lineage of blockchain and I I always sort of get on my my soap box a little bit about this is it actually comes from the same folks that were building in the open- source software movement and we're trying to build privacy preserving technologies. So we're we are in in the blockchain world as blockchain participants, we are actually cut from that same cloth. And I think it's really important to look back to that history and to honor it in a lot of ways. And I think we see that with with with with Bitcoin, for example, and the sort of

pseudonmous nature of Bitcoin and Ethereum and and and other privacy preserving systems. And you know, I think there's remarkable growth and remarkable potential for like ZK technologies and ZKL2s and and just sort of ZK integration. This I think is like, you know, there's a lot of really great opportunity um in in in ZK technology. And I think part of the reason is people understand and recognize how fundamentally important privacy is. Now, you know, do we need that in every single use case? No. Like there are some things that we will care less about having disclosed and there are some things that we'll care more about disclosing. And I think I think I would I try to encourage everyone especially myself to sort of not think in such

black and white terms, right? Because I think life most of life is sort of much very much a gradient. And so rather than create this um you know sort of like political tribalism of like it must always be private or it should be always open doesn't really have to exist. I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy. There are these really incredible tools that can preserve privacy and we've seen them used in Bitcoin, Ethereum and all all the other ones that we know of. But it doesn't necessarily mean we need to have them in every single every single use case. And I think you see the private chains um the the sort of CBDC concerns like you see those sorts of technologies being used there. And I think in certain use cases um private chains are are useful and in other use

case I think you know public chains are going to be more useful. Stable coins is, you know, obviously another really really big thing where I'm very just intellectually very interested in and we are organizationally very interested in it and doing a lot of work on in in stable coins as are other people just because of the transformative power of that. And so there are a lot of questions that come up when thinking about how do you design a stable coin system or how do you design collateralization schema? You know, what sort of uh infrastructure do you want to be using? Do you want to be using a private chain or do you want to be using something that's a little bit more open source and transparent?

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's like the that is the the the crux of where the space is today because I think a lot of us agree with your points. We we agree that like of the cipher funk ori cyberpunk kind of movement of privacy. That's how a lot of this blockchain stuff started as you as you explained with with the you know very early days. Then you lead into the tech the technology that is enabling it which is here. It's being built slowly but surely. A and and then we're faced with the reality which is that crypto is very much entering what I would call a practical era uh and an era of time where you know fugazi decentralization via Dow governance or uh you know la lack of product market fit under the

veil of decentralization or just kind of like general general um lack of adoption you know kind of because we've tried to do things one way. Well, now there's players in the market and you know these stable chains, Circle, Google, Stripe, all these players are coming in. NASDAQ is saying, "Look, we'll we'll do tokenized equities." I see you guys just put out a post about uh kind of enabling tokenized securities not being a side experiment being a, you know, big shift in the way that, you know, just general global markets are going to operate. And so, you know, I kind of see this as as two sides to, you know, the same kind of coin where you've got one side being, look, we want to get crypto adoption,

but we want it done kind of our way, which is a lot of the, you know, core people in the space, and then you've got people outside the space who are really just saying, you know what, we're going to bring a lot of these people on chain and we're going to uh do it, you know, in the way that we want it to be done. And so I think the question off of the side is kind of like in in Rob's uh you know example of the peanut butter and the watermelon, how do we how do we bring these two worlds together? What what is the what is the glue that you're seeing for okay, how do we keep compliance but keep privacy? How do we entertain the large institutions with our core ethos and our core product offerings? you know, I'm just curious from your guys perspective of bringing

this together, how do you see this convergence happening in the in the current era? >> Yeah. So, I I would say the one-word answer is to just be very intentional and intellectually honest with what you're trying to do. And I think our space and other spaces could use more of that, right? Um, just being very, very intentional. I think we've tried to be very intentional with the clients that we work with with the the the products that they're trying to build uh because we we very much see the world as a as this convergence is happening. I think digital asset treasuries like this is um you know really really interesting uh use case right because really what you're seeing with digital asset

treasuries is you are seeing this conversion I sometimes describe it as this like atomicision you like two atoms two two totally separate worlds and there's like sort of colliding at this insane speed and there's just like all of this release of energy and I think people are trying to make sense of like where does that energy go and how do you actually manage that energy but you have two very what used to be two very separate worlds, blockchain digital assets and public capital markets that are now converging and you're we're starting to see this play out in digital asset treasuries today, but I think we we'll continue to see it play out in in other use cases. I think digital asset treasuries um so I would say I would separate thinking

about digital asset treasuries in terms of just intellectually is it an interesting vehicle and does it is it useful versus like should I invest in this one or that one or is like this whatever sold that better than this ETH debt that's a more individual investment type question that I don't really you I let people make their own investment decisions and you know let myself make my own investment decisions and it's a really hard thing to do. But the the first question is actually a really interesting one. And I think digital asset treasuries are very useful when structured the right way when you're looking toward this long-term vision when you're trying to be intentional about what you're trying to do rather

than trying to be extractive. like last year or the year before we went through we still are kind of going through just everyone in the industry this like you know high FDV low float type of thing where you know VCs were getting unlocked really really quickly and people were dumping on retail and so it's it's it's an it's an it's an iterative process but I think in in the DAT context what's important just like in that token TGE context it's are you trying to do the right thing are you thinking about the long-term vision right and and I think when DATs are structured the right way, they are incredibly powerful tools. The other thing interesting thing about DATs is I think they solve in a lot of ways they solve a very big problem that that

blockchain and crypto still still kind of has today which is a UX UI. It's really hard like it's it it's a lot easier for all of us here to like jump onto a DeFi platform or bridge assets, but for most people that's like really hard. Even the concept of having a private key is like a really tricky thing. And so, but at the same time, there's this raw demand that is just growing um for access to digital assets. And so people, you have this, you have this dynamic that's playing out where people, you have a lot of people that that want digital assets. And then a lot of those people just, you know, for for a variety of reasons have trouble going

on chain or don't want to do it or don't understand the technology very well yet or don't feel as comfortable or a compliance person in an organization that would be a purchaser is saying, "We need to get our heads around this. Does this comply with this regulation or that regulation?" And you're basically eliminating a lot of those issues and you're saying, "Hey, just buy a stock. Just buy this piece of equity and you can go, you know, you can go to your brokerage and you can buy a stock that's listed on NASDAQ and buy buy into a company that is subject to um existing and pretty robust regulatory frameworks, which I think is really really important. I think Hester Pur has said this time and time again and and kudos to her and kudos to the rest of the team at at the SEC that are doing

the like very hard work of trying to all figure this out. Um, and I think this is it's a huge 180 of course from the Gendler era where I think they were not trying to engage with our industry in an intellectually honest way and you know everyone saw what we got and I think we have we have people like Hester Pur and like others who have been very intentional and who are being intellectually honest about the technology and also I think surfacing an important consideration which is um there's a reason why everyone wants to list on the NASDAQ or on the New York Stock Exchange or on the American Stock Exchange and in the US. It's because we have the most robust trusted financial economy in the world, right? And so

there's a reason for that. That's a reputation that's been built time and time again and it hasn't been without faults and we've had our financial crisis and and all of those sorts of things. But time and time again, investors all across the planet overwhelmingly want to participate in the US economy. And I think like as an as a very proud American, that makes me very very proud. And as a builder, all of us who are building in the space, I think it also means that we have a responsibility to honor that and to be intellectually honest and to and to do the right thing by by investors. And so w with DATs, when they're structured the right way, when they have the right disclosures, when you're, you know, pitching the future vision to investors, you're actually doing something that's

uh making that process incredibly more efficient by saying, "Hey, you can go buy a piece of stock in this company that's that lives in a very well- reggulated ecosystem for the most part and in an ecosystem where the regulators and policy makers and the builders like us in the space are all sort of looking to the future and trying to build innovative ways to keep everybody safe and also deliver the most amount of value at the same time. >> Yep. I I I think that's I think that's the right take. I mean, this is a difficult job, but they're starting from first p principles, the right approach now, because at least they're receptive to it, and they're open-minded to it, and they're not going to get it right the first try, but they're going to at least start to listen. And like you

started out answering that question is they're going to start to listen and become very intentional about what they're doing rather than applying blanket, you know, uh enforcement by legislation, you know, type that of regulation that, uh, Gendler uh was putting forth. Um, Ste, I I also just wanted to give you a chance to sort of introduce Open World because, you know, we got a a great background on you and your experience, but um, not not so much on Open World. Maybe you could talk through some of the use cases that, you know, you've helped your your customers and clients with. Um, we've had, uh, Sy from Story on the show before. I think they worked with you on their uh, digital asset treasury company. So um yeah maybe you could just give us a primer on open world and uh kind of

introduce it so that anyone listening you know most of our audience is also working and and founding companies in the space and might be interested in launching a digital asset treasury company. So uh yeah maybe maybe you could just unpack that for us. >> Yeah sure absolutely. So I I think that the basic premise of open world is to provide highly trusted, highly impactful um strategy across the entire life cycle of the token launch. That's at least how we started. We started with token launches. If you think about what token launches are, they're incredibly stressful and probably the most important time in a founders's life. And when you're launching several hundred million and you know oftentimes in our case multi-billion dollar protocols, you

have to really get things right. Like you have to be very very precise and there's very very very little margin for error. So you need what you need for that is ultimately you need like a really smart team who has a broad base of experience across a number of critical domains. And that's essentially what we we built at at at open world. um you know sort of think of us as a uh strategic architecture firm that's helping pioneer the next generation of web 3 and bridging this gap between uh blockchain and traditional finance. So um my co-founder uh two my one of my co-founders has you know incredible decades of experience in investment banking and helped helped structure uh uh debt instruments for for a country in

the 90s. Um so you can you know imagine the experience that that something like that brings in addition to a number of other attributes. my other co-founder um actually worked throughout the world uh in emerging emerging uh uh countries to actually build communities and ecosystems uh outside of blockchain um and and and and studying uh uh certain infestations that had really really bad and really significant um economic uh uh impact on on on the economy. So, and he's been an investor into web 3. Um, so, so there's there's there's an incredible amount of of talent that I'm, you know, very proud to be able to work with every day at Open World. More concretely, you know, on the token

launch side, we basically help build ecosystems. So, the entity formation and understanding liquidity analysis and exchange listing, Dowo and decentralization, Dunas, we we just opened an office in Jackson, Wyoming in February. As far as we know, we're only one of two full stack, full Duna administrators who can who can launch Dunas um from the United States. And we built some really really nice software to power a lot of that as well. And then I think sort of another core ethos of and and what we do is we have we actually have incredible um uh banking capability. We're not regulated and we're not licensed a as a bank. Um, but we have an incredible wealth of

experience in investment banking, merchant banking, this sort of sort of new emerging idea of sort of catalyst banking. So, it's like how do we string all of this together? And, you know, we provided a lot of the strategic advisory on the story uh uh that deal and we're having a lot of conversations with other projects. Um, you know, many of the founders whom whom have been on this show before are having conversations with us about, you know, how do we put ADAT together and how do we do it the right way and we're really leveraging our our experience um uh with with our team on the investment banking side, merchant banking side, uh the sort of like uh legal regulatory policy framework, uh technical deployment. Um, we have a a head of tokconomics that

does all of our incredible market research and gets us, you know, sort of mo most granular up-to-date information so that when we have a conversation with a client, we're saying like, "Yeah, here here's what the market is doing six hours ago. Here's what Binance listings look like. Here's where we think we can optimize, you know, add a little bit of lift to we sort of think in terms of building planes." So, it's making sure the plane is built right before you actually get up into the sky. you don't you don't want to find out that you bolted the engine on the wrong way when you're at 30,000 feet, right? So, and and we we we love building all sorts of different types of planes. We build, you know, passenger uh jet planes and we build supersonic planes and we build like sort of, you know, near orbital

planes. So we love engaging in this, you know, what is a very new field of blockchain and and traditional finance and um we love engaging with that and and really building um next generation innovative technologies together with our clients. >> Uh I've got a totally longshot question, but I remember your neuroscience background here as well as computer science. Did you see the announcement from Alter Ego? These guys on >> I I saw it I think I saw I came ac came across this morning but I was I didn't actually get a chance to fully click into it.

>> Dude, this thing was I mean it's basically telepathy and I'm just I if you haven't seen it and you don't have a reaction to it, it's okay. But I would suggest you check it out because it is essentially telepathy that they've built as a startup company >> and I was just curious from a neuroscience perspective if if you had any reaction to it if you had seen it. So, I I I haven't seen it, but I'm I'm 100% going to check it out after this. But I I mean, I just think that's really really interesting. You know, talk about networks. I mean, there, you know, and I'm it's been almost a decade since I was or probably more since I was um uh in the in the neur neuroscience world, but you know, you're talking trillions of nodes living in our brain, sort of

firing off in sort of seemingly random ways. But now we're realizing that uh hey, there's a pattern there. Um maybe maybe for most of us may maybe some of us it's just totally random. Um but there there's a pattern >> Andy like that we love. >> Um but uh but if you if you if you study that pattern hey there may be actually something there. And I mean you've seen the stuff with with Neurolink and I think that's kind of the premise of what they're building. And you know that's well I mean talk about privacy concerns right? like on the one hand you have this incredibly >> amazing technology uh you can cure these diseases you can give people who lo who lost their ability to move their limbs

the ability to walk again and these are really really incredible things but I also imagine how that could be used or weaponized right I mean I was walking through Global Entry the other day just like you don't even see where the camera is just like they're like hey Stefan welcome back and you just walk through and it's like wait how does this guy know my name right so imagine that where like they're just sc you know zapping your brain as you're walking through. So, yeah, I think it's the technology is really, really incredible. Um, I don't know. I don't know if I'm necessarily qualified to talk about it, but I'm I'll be eagerly reading all of the developments in this sort of stuff.

>> If you want to come back on afterwards and talk about it after, you're certainly welcome to. >> You got it. Yeah. Stefan, it's been a pleasure, man. I uh I I'm just curious real quick before we let you go, where where are we at in this uh digital asset treasury company saga? like are we closer to the uh to the blowup or to the start? Like I just have I just know it's gonna there's going to be problems in the future, but like how far are we away from from that do you think? >> Yeah. Um I would say as I so Bloomberg I just read a Bloomberg article this morning and they sort of asking the same question. Um I I I hope that we're not close to the blowup. I hope that um I think I think honestly sort of all jokes

aside, I think what we're going to see is we're we're going to see the next cohort of digital asset treasuries from token projects that we kind of all know about that are building real product. And I think if you're a token project, you're building real product. you have the ability to demonstrate um earning potential outside of just this idea of like we're going to stack token at discount on balance sheet and hope the stock trades at a positive net asset value. But if you're gonna if you're saying like we're building something very very real and we're going to change the world with it and you can be a part of it and we're going to give you access you public retail and investors access to this via a digital asset treasury to enjoy sort of the the growth and the

upside in that underlying digital token but also in the future potential of that protocol. Um I think I think that's actually where we're heading. And I think what we saw in this sort of f first iteration version one if you will is a lot of people just in a way kind of um and not everyone of course but you know a lot of people working along this like uni-dimensional line of sort of the strategy concept of let's just stack this asset and hope that it trades at premium to nav. And we're gonna we're now entering this second chapter, which I think is a really exciting one, which is this, you know, the the bridge that's being built is now being really built stronger. And and it's it's we've increased the carrying capacity to bridge these these token projects into

the traditional uh uh traditional public equities market. And so if you're building a real product and you have a real growth uh proposition for the market, I think we're we're going to see those those projects come in. Um, and I think we're gonna we're gonna see them come in pretty soon. Yeah, that's what uh we had Ryan Watkins on of Syncrasy and he said the same thing like that whole era that initial era at least you know part of what you said what is past right like that is just that is not going to work but now there's just next kind of evolution of these companies and I think a lot of them will have to use onchain primitives as well to earn yield or have different actual uh you know different strategies to actually create value other than just kind of like this all right be the first one to it you

know be early before people really pick it up and then you know that that has faded out. So I also hope that we're far from the end. I don't not sure if there's ever going to be an end to this idea. Um there will probably be changes over time but I see I see this concept of like these accumulation vehicles happening you know continuously for a while for the largest crypto assets. It's just a matter of who survives, who takes too much risk, who blows up, who ruins it for everybody else. How does that impact and then how do we kind of re restart and it's probably inevitable in some capacity because people get greedy but I just I hope yeah I hope it's not too soon and I hope that it's not too much of of a fallout. Don't

think it's going to be that bad but it could be what we just would not want to see is one of these companies that has a large ownership of the top one to three assets have a big problem because that would just cause uh kind of a domino effect. So anyway, not to end on a doomer note, but we we really appreciate your time here. It's been a pleasure and uh yeah, would love to have you on a couple months to get a uh refresh as to where everything's at. >> Yeah, you got it. And again, thank you guys both very much for having me on and congratulations to both of you on your all of your success. It's very well earned, so I'm very happy to see it. >> Hey, appreciate that, man. Very much appreciate it.

>> Amen, brother. Speak to you soon, Stefan. All right, >> talk to you soon, Andy. Take care, Rob. Bye. >> Cheers, man. Man, yeah. Yeah. I mean, between that and the and the and the conversation with Ryan, I mean, I Yeah, maybe I think it is probably likely that we're further away from the end to the whole that thing than expected, but we're definitely entering the next phase of sophistication. And when you get more sophisticated into these types of trends, that's when things get a little bit more wonky. So, you know, because you have to start to find different ways. you essentially have to start taking more risk to get the same outcome which was previously a available to you in the previous part of time with less risk. So you have to take more risk to

get the same outcome that was available three months ago with less risk. And so that's kind of like how these trends end up happening. Um but hopefully hopefully it is more about the operating company and real businesses and less so just about accumulation. Yeah, I think uh we're gonna get our next guest, Ash Pumpati on. >> Maybe we'll get his take on this as well. >> Just a moment. There he is. >> Let's What's up? >> We're talking dats, man. We're talking uh when is the Avas Dat coming, man. Come on. >> Oo, spicy.

>> Let's just say coming. Let's just say coming soon. >> Oh, that sounds like alpha. >> I haven't seen that on the timeline quite We're just kind of talking about the transition of these things like uh how you know 3 six months ago you know when some of the early eths were getting formed you you could take less risk to get the desired outcome which is have a premium mnav to the actual underlying to be able to then buy more but it's it's gotten a bit more sophisticated now and a bit more kind of crowded such that you can't just do that anymore there there's now more you have to take either more risk or have a different strategy and so we're just kind of tracking the evolution of these things. Um, but you know, I'm curious your take on that, your introduction. Obviously, I met you

out in uh Hong Kong, but I think it's your first time on on the show, so would love to get a feel for who you are and then maybe some of your takes from the uh from the more spectator perspective as to these digital asset treasury companies. >> Yeah, it's been a minute. I'm excited to give you the dumbest guy in the room's opinion about this stuff. Uh, but uh, yeah, I'm Ash. Uh, I lead ecosystem over at the Apttos Foundation. So covering everything from liquidity, DeFi, partnerships, grants. Um my my majority of my career has been in scaling consumer businesses. I mean, I fell in love with web 3 because I felt like uh um for the first time in history, you could align incentives with the creator, whether they be a product builder or a

creator or content creator, and the user. And I'd never seen that in all of my history working at YouTube and Spotify, right? we were always trying to figure out how to line incentives further and there was always friction. Uh so that's that's kind of like how I fell into it. Um, you know, on the DAT side, I think the I think, you know, to your point, Andy, and again, I'm going to give an overly simplistic view like I think it's good that uh there's more in market because it sharpens the view of what makes sense, right? And at the end of the day, these are two, this is a vehicle that's opening up access to a completely new audience who looks at completely different things. Um the question I always have is what is the

tipping point of where companies or foundations or networks start to um focus on serving you know um and I think that's what's going to be super exciting but I feel like it's still early innings uh and you know for us the thesis is essentially and probably for a lot of companies maybe outside of the big guys right like Bitcoin and Ethereum is um do you want an incredible upside on innovation right in one of two sectors that's going to drive global GDP, right? Crypto or AI, right? So, it's like to to me it's like that's super exciting. Um, and for us, you know, we're from Libra DM Origins, all of the team on the

engineering side are still here from that project. Um, and so that's kind of what's exciting for us in terms of driving forward and serving this new kind of, you know, retailer customer base. >> Man, you guys got snubbed by Gendler so hard. You guys were right. You know, Facebook was right. There's just like Stripe's doing it now. You know, Circle's doing it. Robin Hood's doing it. Everyone wants to do it. Chain, stable coin to all of it. But >> yo, but you know what, Andy? Like, I like the I like the lore of being shut down by the government personally. That's how strong we are. You know what I mean?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, dude, you guys are very focused on RWA's tokenization. I feel that you guys have established a really strong presence in in that kind of like more institutional camp uh almost kind of bordering into like that enterprise world. Um you know you're running the head of ecosystem right now. What would you say is the tokenization thesis as it like stands today for apttos for rwas in general when you're looking at okay here's what we want to do in this this this kind of convergence between tradfi and defi in tokenization what is your core thesis at appsauce for uh this entire uh sector

>> yeah I mean one is justifying the amount of effort we've put into making our tech the best, you know what I mean? Um, the tech was always built with the mindset of powering money movement across a billion user app economy out of the box, right? Like >> the reviews with the technical and engineering teams at Meta weren't like uh hokeyp pokey reviews. They're like, yo, we're about to pass trillions from Instagram to WhatsApp. So, what's good? Like, are we ready or so the beauty is that's available to the market. I think uh that has carried over, right, in terms of institutional and enterprise interests and which is why you see us like really outpace in terms of RWA uh tokenization versus, you know, given our maturity in the cycle, right? We're

still a young chain when you think about it, right? We're um top three in RWA and the people ahead of us are are ETH and ZK, you know what I mean? So I think for us that's a testament to what we started building at Meta and the institutional interest around the Libra and DM project to adopt these roles carried over outside. I think now that we're a permissionless network, what you have to do is bring utility to users, right? So it's essentially like how are we thinking about uh all of that stuff being utilized in DeFi? And I think the first step for us was um that I took was number one have homegrown DeFi protocols that plug fundamental gaps, right?

That's important but not always interesting like across the board, right? Um second was bringing on partners like a and chain link to button up the ecosystem to say, okay, when these assets are ready to be utilized, >> it's like, you know, military you know, so we're there. Like we're we're there. And so now it's about really lighting it up. >> And you know, when I think about like uh Apptos, right, my my biggest uh my biggest like cringe is basically us thinking of ourselves as a closed ecosystem. Like I want our chain to be invisible. Uh and I and I wanted to just make things work. Um and so that's really how we're thinking of the future.

So obviously trading uh all of those things happening on the network but really just using Apptos Rails to have a decentralized um environment that feels UX- wise like a centralized environment that's super important but there's a whole another hill to climb in unlocking the next wave of adoption uh onto crypto >> and like the institutions are coming they're here a lot of them are choosing these chains like why what what do you think is the unique value proposition of Aptos without you know trashtalking the other chains too hard like what is the value proposition there what is the competitive advantage that Aptos brings to these institutions that would make them choose Atos for their chain of choice

>> yeah I mean I think uh for them right they they they take a lot of effort and due diligence right for for a good reason I think the benefit of us is we've been talking with them while we were at Meta right and so they knew the team they knew the pedigree but we also developed a unique smart cont contracting language called move at Meta right so basically Meta went and they said hey let's look at all this smart contract architecture can we actually use it to power our apps and services and the answer was no so we're going to develop a unique one um and so it met a level of security that was required from institutions and so I think that's for them something where they were like amazing tech for a billion users and institutionalgrade

smart contracting language makes sense for us on the flip side. Uh it's a challenge for me too, right? To onboard developers. Uh because you know while that is amazing for institutions, developers are all also like man I know like I'm EVM SVM like what the is moving? Uh and so that's kind of the trade-off there. But we're operating from a point of advantage. >> Yeah. And I think one of the things that that you guys have as far as this like core concept is this global trading engineet. and you put out this really long post the other day u maybe about a month ago and one key thing that has stuck out is this uh launch of decibel uh a new onrade onchain trading venue uh

built between the decibel team and apttos labs uh and so it seems like you guys are almost incubating this uh you know premium onchain uh platform for trading into the ecosystem. what is the the state of this decibel uh product being launched? How h how is this going to work? What is you know what is this product? >> Yeah, I think it starts from a simple thesis of um one I consider Aptos Labs the most wellunded ecosystem team as me starting at the foundation. So I go to them and I say, "Shit, huge products. Let's go." You know, and so I think this is one of the two big bets and there's a third one, right? Um and

the I think the insight here is and maybe you guys agree or disagree. Um it is insane to direct an everyday user on how to make money in crypto, right? Like uh outside of the exchanges, right? You got to go explore different ecosystems. you spend six months getting rugged by like faulty protocols and at the end of the day like if if I go to my homie and I'm like yo like we're on the street in New York and I say hey man there's like so many money-making opportunities in crypto and it's fun too what are they going to do they're going to pull out their phone and be like where do I go >> right and so I think like decel as as a start is essentially us saying there needs to be a singular interface for people to get the best of defi in a

trusted and seamless manner The second piece of decibel is you know our our our bet is that there's going to be different varieties of user in terms of risk appetite right so like trading per is like a high you know that's like that's turbo you know what I mean in many regards right and but like why should you have to flip to a different interface to just get a passive yield >> right it's it's it's it doesn't really kind of make sense and why can't you have um multiple asset types to service collateral maybe your yield can be your collateral so I think for us that's kind of where we saw the opportunity. That being said, uh I'm super bullish on picking ecosystem teams to fit into that stack. And so essentially with the

growth of APAs and the and the decel product, we can create some unicorns out of some homegrown startup teams as well, which is which is truly amazing. Um that uh is coming uh to mainet in the next six months, which is super exciting. >> So is this like your hyperlid competitor? Yeah, I remember when you said uh I I said, "What if Hyperlink was built on Apptos?" And you were like, "Yeah, what if, dude?" Uh >> I feel like I was giving you so much so much. I was giving you a full earful back in Hong Kong. Just >> I love it, man. I mean I mean, dude, Hyperlid's broken all of our brains, right? I mean, like for me, maybe you guys, too, right? It's the perfect symbol of what product market fit looks like in terms of value acrruel for

retail. It's the it's like it's it's just kind of like wow it's the perfect synergy. It's almost like uh you know peak NFTTS like you know it's just like wow what a beautiful unison um >> and you know now they're building towards kind of decentralization and incubating an ecosystem and we are building towards like building apps that can scale to millions. So it's an exciting time and I think the pie is pretty huge. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you guys have a a full kind of native ecosystem here as well. I mean, if I look at that article, I mean, you list tons of different DeFi apps. I mean, I guess my my main concern is kind of similar to the Mega ETH situation, which is they launched this Athena USDM

stable coin uh in partnership with Athena to bring like this native stable coin to their chain, which effectively makes it impossible for any other stable coin to compete on that chain. There there was already another a project called Cap Labs D5 Daves company which is fortunately just building on top of it and not really a direct competitor. We had them on yesterday. But like when you're thinking about like incubating decibel into the Apttos ecosystem, how do you how do you uh build this without pushing the current DEX's and DeFi applications out? Like are you able to aggregate them in some capacity? Is it going to be a direct competitor? just like how do you how do you go about kind of dog fooding your own infrastructure versus competing uh you know with your own ecosystem? How do you kind of

balance that? >> Yeah. I mean for one uh I think it's an amazing accelerant for ecosystem teams to push further. Like if you're smart you should out ship labs. You know what I'm saying? Uh and basically move fast and and move through kind of like the tunnel they open up of awareness and be like actually I'm here and I'm better. Number one, that might be like a controversial take, but I think that's my job uh to to invigorate on that end. I think number two, again, decibel is um it is not a singular monolithic product. It is a stack of products and there's tons of products that can power the backends.

You know, I think Phantom was a great example of this with Jupiter, right? Like when the airdrop season was going crazy, like why was Phantom such an amazing place to like swap tokens? It's because Jupiter was in the background powering it. What did that do? It drove a ton of transaction fee volume on Jupiter and then there was a bra crazy Jupiter airdrop. I I believe in the same you know um I think there are elegant ways to stack products in the back end to and not disrupt the user experience. Um not everyone's going to make it uh but I think the smart ones will. >> Yeah. And you mentioned uh you know Hyperlid's done a great job of sort of providing this value acral mechanism to retail. Phantom Rabby are starting to implement some of the hyperlquid

perpetual uh integrations in their back end and it's all going to be invisible like like you mentioned. Um and and now I might be kind of putting some things together here. You tell me if I'm on the right track. I I think there's an ETF that's kind of on the table for uh Aptos. And so we're that's on one side, right? And then on the other side we're also seeing this tokenized stock movement. I think NASDAQ said that, you know, they filed that they they want to see more uh tokenized offerings in parallel to public offerings. Uh and then BlackRock today again said that they want to try to put ETFs on chain and just do more of their business on blockchain rails. All of the front ends own the user relationships like interact

all of these regulated brokerages are still going to offer all these products, but then you know on the back end there's going to have to be some sort of blockchain rails to handle the onchain tokenized part of these of these ETFs and these public offerings. So is that sort of the are are we pushing in the right direction here especially as a get some of these products itself in the more traditional financial world? Will we soon see more of that reflected on Aptos chain? But you know, retail won't know, but us kind of being in the industry, is that sort of the the is that the vibe? Is that the direction that we're heading?

>> Yeah, 100%. I think I think a couple things. One, uh structured financial asset issuance is like priority number one for us. We are definitely being a little bit more thoughtful in terms of what standards we adopt because you know the benefit of these things is you could trade stocks today like and you see the behavior of what people want. crypto adds a a nice little sauce to it, right? Um, but these different standards that exist, what's the liquidity? Is it getting adoption in really robust ecosystems like Salana? Is someone coming up with a new standard that's a bit more elegant? So, we're definitely um, you know, we're going to light those things up, but we want to be a little bit more thoughtful on some of those things. I think another piece is the

trend of these uh, let's say these these these people who own the front-end customer relationship. what do they want in terms of customization on a blockchain. Um the cool news is that we've actually um started to design the infrastructure. We uh we call it namespace right now. That's not an official name of essentially you could you could essentially use an apttos move grade blockchain and customize it in your own way. That's pretty cool. Um, and so that's one of those things where, you know, we we think of being proactive and in building things and designing things and we see the market kind of wanting some customization. Uh, and so we're going to have a great offering.

So, um, so so that's kind of the way I look at it. Um you know I I feel also uh the biggest ARB right with equities really uh that on that that blockchain can give is uh emerg like is is bridging the gap between emerging markets and first first world capital markets. That's it. That's the multi-t trillion dollar gap, right? If a guy in Nigeria can buy Tesla stock in like a second, right, and immediately have all the rights that someone who bought Tesla stock had, that's the multi- trillion dollar opportunity. And I think right now we're just kind of scratching the surface, you know. Um but that's kind of where where we're headed.

>> Yeah, man. I I dug up a new uh a new Fidelity investment fund on RWAXYZ, which that those guys are big fans of yours and um you know that they've got this ono collaboration doing this kind of treasuries onchain. I just found a new repo product as well. called RWXYZ's guys have been hooking me up with the uh with the hidden alpha on the uh on the platform and and you know I just keep looking at this and I just keep looking at this and I'm like I feel like I'm looking at DeFi llama in 2020 when I'm just like all right you know TVL on Ethereum L1 for DeFi is just like all right 10 bill 20 bill 30 bill it just it's I think it's at like 280 billion

right now including stable coins dude it feels like this is going to hit like3 trillion dollars in like the next like two to three years >> you And if I look at at at ABTS in terms of the market, you guys are sitting at uh a nice pretty $448 today. Uh what is the 10x for Aptos? How do you guys 10x this thing in terms of this tokenization RWA trend is about to take off? We're going to get to multiple trillions of dollars of stable coins on chain. Well, we're going to tokenize equities and everything in in in the like be integrated with NASDAQ. How do we get Apptos 10X from here? What is your h how do you guys ride this wave and be a strong player in it? Um close us out with some bullishness here.

>> Yeah, I believe uh it's good business to buy an apartment. Number one. Um uh number two, the way I look at it is our fundamentals have never been stronger and the price doesn't reflect that growth. And so I think we're going to be in an amazing uh era in terms of uh you know 10xing from here. There's two things. One is having these uh demand vehicles that access a different type of user base. Now our value proposition is really interesting, right? Um we are the third or fourth gen, however you want to look at it, high performance blockchain class. We've been in market three years.

We don't go down. Um, we have all of the founding team on the engineering side still here. Um, we're going to be here forever, right? We're wellunded, right? That's never an issue. Um, so we're here in for the long haul. That's number one. Uh, number two is um, decibel is going to bring a ton of concentrated liquidity to the network, right? And look, we are not like trying to say, oh yeah, like hyperlquid today, decibel tomorrow. We're talking about expanding the pie and growing market share in a significant way. I think the second thing is Shelby. Shelby is an amazing opportunity that I don't think any of us uh have done justice in terms of framing in the context of the wider web 3 industry. Right. Uh one thing Andy that

I always think about is uh you know the internet ad market is about to hit a trillion dollars a year by 2030. Um the amount of revenue generated from onchain trading is 4 billion a year. like we have not onboarded or created the value to be exchanged to reach the level of like internet scale even even close. And Shelby for us is the lynch pin of unlocking the decentralized YouTube, the decentralized Twitch, a new creator economy, permissionless content, um, or censorship resistant content. And that's an area where partnering with Jump and people with the long view

are basically like, yeah, like we're going in that direction. Um, you know, the last 10 years, DeFi's kind of looked the same. I mean, just just to be very honest, outside of the memecoin craze. And so now it's about how do you bring all of that other that's happening on the internet onchain. Um and so Shelby is that next phase. >> So check this out. Oracle stock jumps up 43% yesterday on the news of a $300 billion computing deal with open AI. And our boy Avery G throws us a little quote tweet on it. Says the cloud opportunity in AI is insane. Oracle experts, sorry, Oracle expects its revenue to hit 144 billion by 2030. The broader market will be in the trillions. Bullish that the

first real time hot decentralized cloud infra Shelby will be a major player in this space. Cheaper, faster, globally accessible and built by the best in jumping apps. And so basically what you're saying here is that the opportunity in this uh you know real time decentralized cloud infrastructure for AI for this you know if we just can think about the demand for compute just being in a linear growth phase right now because of I mean practically exponential but we can call it linear because of the infinite AI investment. you guys, your thesis with Shelby is that it will be positioned to be the optimal like kind of decentralized version of a lot of these uh you know centralized incumbents which I think we

can all understand the you know the positive impacts of that >> 100%. It anchors to the internet's onboarding of global society is what I would say and that's what's going to be super awesome. >> And then you got the DAT coming to get this token out of the gutter. I'm just messing around. >> Listen, >> coming soon. >> It's always smart to buy an apartment. >> What does that mean, >> dude? The ticker's a >> apartment. >> Buy an apartment. >> I'm all good here on my thoughts and questions. I think we got a lot of them out. Do you have anything else, man? Or Ash, anything on your mind?

>> No, I have nothing for you guys. >> I I appreciate you guys. Thank you so much for the time. I've been a longtime listener, first time caller. Uh, so excited for you guys, too. You guys crush it. Thanks, man. Um, onwards. >> It feels like a call-in more, right? It's not like a podcast. It's like you're calling in. It's like a >> like you've done podcasts, right? >> Yeah, I've done podcasts. There >> does feel different. >> This feels great. This is like a hang for sure. >> Okay, cool. Because it's that's kind of like like like the goal of all this is to reduce the time commitment, reduce the effort, reduce the preparation, just make it much more much more real. I mean honestly >> 100%. It's been amazing. Thank you so much.

>> All right, Ash. Thanks, man. Cheers. Cheers to you, buddy. >> See you next time, man. >> Bye, >> man. Buy an apartment, Rob. >> Buy an apartment, buddy. >> When he said that at first, I was like, he's just taking taking profits. >> Yeah, unlocked it. But >> I was like, how do we go? Buying the apartment. I was like, okay. >> All right, Rob. Well, that was a good stream. It was uh nice and tight and uh three great guests and yeah, we got a lot to do for tomorrow. So, I'm stoked and we got a busy busy day ahead. Really fun conversation with Ash. Couple of these clips are kind of stirring the

pot. The circle L1 L2 clip is stirring the pot. Um you know, some of these some of these uh clips around uh their decision making is stirring the pot. So yeah, Nquille, albeit a very refined speaker and calm manner last or yesterday morning kind of ended up stirring the the the CT pot a little bit. So that's where we're at here. >> We shall see.

>> It looks like Native Markets is uh >> they won the proposal. >> One has won the proposal. >> I saw Sky conceded. They said they're they're still gonna build a stable coin and they're still going to do all their own buybacks on Hyperlid. >> Wow. >> They will still do their buybacks. >> Sky. Yeah. And that comes after uh the main PayPal brand account tweeted that they wanted that they were coming to Hyperlquid and they wanted to onboard Venmo and >> what >> all that good stuff. Yeah.

>> The one point we're in. We're We're all in. Wow, what a tweet >> from PayPal. That >> look I called I called you a conspiracy theorist in our chat because uh you believed in this this uh conspiracy that it was somehow native Marcus from the jump. >> And it seems like it it kind of was. I mean, when you see Paxos and their revised proposal and then you see PayPal and you see Venmo, I just it's tough to rationalize. Look, we didn't hear

>> from Native Markets >> from Native Markets on this show, but everyone else was making a really strong public push. Dude, I think Hyperlid had a a I I was I just checked the chart like while we were waiting for the guest. Um and it it it had this jump and I feel like it was because that tweet that uh PayPal tweet but anyway that's so so Native Markets is confirmed to have won. Is that the deal? I don't want to say for sure, but Sky conceded and they and Rune congratulated native markets. So, I mean, if you have another bidder

congratulating someone, I have to take that, you know, that that the current biders are are conceding. >> Wow. >> But I don't think the vote officially ends until the 14th, just three days. >> Yeah. But is there a dashboard to see the vote? Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. Uh, >> USDH tracker.xyz. >> USDH tracker.

>> It's pretty cool. In crypto, people just throw these websites up. >> Suspicious site blocked. >> Okay. >> Validator commitments completed. vote windows next three days. Uh yeah, hyper collective native markets that pretty much swung the vote. >> They control uh between hyper collective and hyper scanning they control about 31%. >> Wow. Okay. >> Across two validator. >> So So native markets is going to take it then.

>> That's certainly what it looks like. I mean you could check check our uh check your favorite prediction market. >> Yeah. Let's see what's going on. >> KHI's got Wait what? Ki has sky at 99%. But native markets at 95 that uh that that's >> not Poly Market's got native markets at 94, >> Pax at six, Sky, you know, Fra and Agora at less than one, >> right? That sounds more like it. I I mean I don't know why you can still buy no shares for Paxos.

>> So you can get uh you can get Hyperlid to hit over 70 right now for by the end of the year for 55% for 60 cents. It's pretty good. >> It's a nice little option. >> Yeah, the over 100 you can get it for 27 cents, but I think over 70 is easier. I mean, that thing could go over 70 in the next couple weeks here. >> Talk about Nash equilibrium right there. I mean, that's how you sort of you sort of position like buy some over 70 shares.

>> Yeah. >> And double your money. Not financial advice. >> This guy. All righty, guys. Thanks so much for uh tuning in. It's been a fun stream again, Rob. Uh one more tomorrow to end the week. >> Yeah, we will see you next time. All righty. Peace, guys.