The Rollup TV: Monday, June 23rd

Transcript

[Music] the best. Hey Heat. [Music] Heat.

[Music] Heat. Heat. Ah, [Applause] [Music] heat. Heat

[Music] up here. Hey, [Applause] hey hey.

[Music] What's going on, guys? Welcome back to the Rollup TV. Today is Monday, June 23rd. Uh we have five excellent conversations coming to you today. One debate, the first debate on the Roll-Up TV. To start, we have AI from KLED. Uh he's been getting quite a bit of backlash about his investor email posting, what they're doing at Kled uh and his advisor board as well, which

we're going to talk to him about. Uh we've got Will Clemente to talk to us about macro uh today. It looks like Iran has shot back to at the US in at some bases in in Qatar. We have Brian uh the co-founder of course one talking about investing staking etc. And we have Nick and Douglas to discuss collabs and how the infrastructure stack will play a role in that future. Then we have Sean to talk about the agentic future. So a lot of good conversations coming today. Excited for the stream. Um and of course we have our first segment today which is by the numbers. And I wanted to show my tweet today actually that I posted this morning uh which is that circle is on an

absolute tear of a run. Uh I mean this thing is now trading at at the time of the screenshot was 261 269 now hit high of 298 today up I mean five I think four or five times since it launched at about $60 uh on the IPO. traded to like 95 that day and I think people are pretty shocked by this by the performance of circle. It it actually its market cap now has outpaced the total supply of USDC as well which is also crazy. Um and just overall really really a exciting time for people that want to get exposure to stable coins. Um and I think that's what's happening here is Wall

Street is really really jumping to try to get exposure to these assets. So, uh, I I wanted to cover this today and buy the numbers because I just felt like I mean this is one of the most insane, um, charts that we've seen and it does seem like there's a new trend now where if you're buying IPO of crypto companies, you'll start to perform well. Uh, and there's also these uh, Bitcoin treasury companies that have been doing really well. So on today's buy numbers, I would say that this uh circle uh chart is probably closer to a blowoff area than a uh you know than than a a buy point. I just don't know how much higher this thing can go in the immediate term. But

we'll kind of see how how that plays out. Um, what's exciting about this is for the other stable coin companies, things like Cap Money, things like Plasma, Stable, um, even Maple, who we had on last week, I think they are going to be beneficiaries of Circle having this amazing run and Wall Street being that interested in stable coins. Um, ironically today, Pudgy Penguins also rang the uh the bell uh to do the to start off the NASDAQ and start the trading day. Uh there wasn't that much news on the back half of that quite yet other than the uh DAP um ETF that they have uh announced. So guys, just to close off this loop, what I'm looking at

circle here, I think that this level of speculation has to come down into the crypto markets as a whole, uh, and will likely happen, uh, as a result of some of the war stuff. So, um, the war stuff has been just a a ongoing development and I think it's really just these these companies are are now um well, first of all, these countries are now kind of fighting a war with each other, US and Iran. I just think it's going to be an excuse to print. I think that it's going to be something that we're going to have to deal with for a while. It feels like we've been at war in in the Middle East for a long time. So, look, I mean, nobody wants to see it. Nobody wants to be a part of it. Um, but that's just kind of the state of things as they are.

Uh, and so I think that we have to live with that and and um, you know, kind of go go forward with it as it is. Um, coming up guys, we have Avi Patel. He's going to start us off today. Avi is a the founder of Kled. Uh, he's again, he's been under backlash quite a bit. So, I'd like to get get to know the guy a bit, understand why he's getting a lot of heat and what he's done. Uh there was some drama over the weekend about his advisory board. Um so I'd like to get his answer on that and the VC email and understand a bit of his distribution strategy with some of the guys like Cluey uh who are doing a similar kind of strategy if you will in terms of marketing. So we'll get him up here in

in a short second. Uh main kind of topics at play uh are going to be his his AI technology. again what what we just covered with regards to some of the drama um token holder value his kind of differentiations with regards to ICM and more. So um without further ado we will get him up briefly and get ready to get started. Welcome back to the rope TV again. Should be a great segment today. Um and I think the worst is behind us on this war stuff. I think we're in a good spot. Unfortunately the world's a little bit shaky. I think the the markets had quite a dump over the weekend and and should be coming back to a good spot

shortly. So guys, we'll give it a couple seconds and we'll get Avi in here immediately. Looking forward to having him on uh and to jamming on what's going on today. I will just take a quick pause here and we'll get into it. So we had uh the dupe guys on last week, Bobby who is uh in the same kind of niche of these believe coins. I actually met another founder over the weekend who is building something similar and these guys are all they they all are different than the traditional I would say crypto founders like it's a different type of

thinking. It's a different it's a different way of approaching the space also. It's very just like it's very token oriented as well which I think is different. A lot of people try to focus on the technology on the infrastructure etc. But this is very very token oriented uh in terms of the product and also a lot of these are centered around AI tools. So it's about like monetizing AI tools and you know ironically even though it's far different and far smaller than something like like what uh Yano and Blockworks are doing. We had a pod where he explained how you know onchain IPOs would be something that they could pursue. And I think this is kind of what we're seeing with these guys is that this is like this this idea of okay, you can actually just launch um different products on chain using a

token a and make the the token improve the product that already has pre-existing uh demand and product market fit. So that's kind of how I'm thinking about Kled. Uh but I think that the audience is going to want to hear about the latest from his from um AI's side about what you know has been unfolding. So, I'm not going to let let up on him. I'm going to ask him uh what I think people would want to understand uh and hope to get to the bottom of this a bit. So, we'll get him up here in a sec. Let's have a good stream, guys.

And we're pulling them up now. Let's get after it. Here we go. Give us just a sec. Might have to react to some tweets here. Man, I'm waiting for Robbie. He's uh he's he's coming back today. He's flying to the city. We had a huge week, huge week ahead at Permissionless. Um and I'm excited to kind of see what's going on

here. Uh with Avi, we have a we are doing rollup TV live at permissionless Wednesday and Thursday. So excited for that. Uh we'll be on the ground there doing a ton of interviews with builders, founders, etc. Um and yeah, we got AI in the back end getting them set up now. And then we have a a happy hour on Thursday that we're hosting and a dinner on Wednesday. So excited for that. Uh excited for this week. Should be a busy week for us. Um, but looking forward to kind of what comes of it and how we can hang. So, all right, we're going to get him up here. Um, get him in the back end and we'll be good to go.

AI. All right, let's do it. Welcome to the show, man. What's up, dude? How's it going? Good morning. I mean, the world's crashing, but I mean, we're still here. We're still building. The world is definitely crashing, dude. Um, I haven't like kept up with it too much, but I just see everything red every day, all all day long, basically. Um, it is what it is. Yeah, man. Well, you you got yourself into some [ __ ] this weekend, didn't you? Oh my god, man. I never knew. Okay. Yeah. So, you post the advisory board, you know, with people that are advising and crypto Twitter just absolutely lashes out at you. What happened? It didn't I mean, it didn't make too much sense to me. Um, I

mean, look, I've shifted basically like my complete focus to just ship as fast as physically possible, which we've been doing this whole time, but focus really hard on those updates because you can't ever hate on shipping. And that's very clear like we've gotten no FUD last three days basically. But man, dude, that advisory board I I will say and I will defend this to my core is are just killers. Like they're they're amazing. It's people have built like multiundred million dollar companies like um I think the biggest ones that got hate were Solomon Sabande who's literally was XXXT's manager for his entire career um and until he passed by the way which I mean I don't know what the issue was because I can't say it's his current manager he's dead which sucks obviously um it's his estate manager at this point

right and then Molly O'Shea who's a gem by the way she's she's interviewed every big startup founder and she runs one of the biggest VC podcasts she's like one of the biggest VCs in tech, right? Those were the two that biggest hate. Um, and then it just spiraled. It was like an a combination of Agent Chud somehow Kobe got involved. I don't know what that was. Thankfully Kobe put out like a public apology after saying you shouldn't have like gotten involved here. Like this was stupid. Um, so I do appreciate that he did that. But for a good couple of hours, dude, I had to deal with a lot of messages from some angry adviserss who were receiving just like death threats, like mass FUD, like mass information. um to the point where like two of them ended up pulling out which is unacceptable honestly from you

know the community's end but um it's just something I gotta deal with I guess. Yeah. So then so none none of these were like falsified or all the claims from from Twitter people. I literally sent I literally sent every contract to like Imran from Alliance for example like who then sent these contracts out to like Kobe. Um and that's probably why he put out the public apology. Um, but you had to send contracts to people to prove that that that they were confirmed and that's how you got people to basically buy them.

So, just to clarify, the contracts were with um Nitro. So, Nitro is the the company that owns Kled. It's always been under Kled. Um, all the advisers except for two were fully aware of the new like Kled vertical. And frankly, I could have handled it better. like I could have told like um it was it was two like I I won't name them obviously that that the two that pulled out um that I could have handled better and like told them very clearly. One of them reacted to our our tweet about Kled and like very positively as well and that's when everything was going great. Um but obviously when things go down like you don't want to be reputationally tied to something that's going to have like mass FUD, right? So it makes sense. Um but the rest of them like they all knew about it. Um and yeah, the contracts

were there too. So it's it sucks, dude. I can't I can't do anything about it. Um, we're down to advisors, but I mean, hey, like I've learned my lesson. I'm just literally never going to talk about advisors ever again. The last thing I want us to ruin relationships with people that I I'm friends with in real life, you know. Okay. So, the other thing was the was the VC email. That was real. Oh my god. Or was that? Yeah. No, that was real. We had our investor put out a public statement who seen the email and the term sheet. My whole point of posting that in the first place was the fact that it was very clearly AI generated. Like the whole the whole email was like the the the VC quite literally probably typed in chatb like make up some excuse on why we didn't

invest and write me an email and send it. And I thought it was just so unacceptable because for context I talked to this VC for eight months. Eight months of a cycle to close them on our seed round. this this VC gave us a term sheet for a seed round and then pulled out on that term sheet which is like the worst bad practice in VC possible and then didn't talk to me for months and then when Kled started doing very well and we started getting a ton of signups and traffic and all of that they come back to us with like a series A term sheet because they they knew we we were at that stage now um and it was just out of the blue and I I was like dude I'm going to put these guys on blast I'm also not going to like

publicly defame them so I'm not going to like reveal who it is that's that'd be the stupidest thing I could do especially messing with like a billion a billion dollar fund. That's that's dumb. But um yeah, it was another like just like thing that caught fire. Um there's definitely some good that came out of it. Like it got a lot of attention from the Silicon Valley space. Um and like a lot of big partners like Cyan Banister from Long Journey followed me off of that. Um A16Z, a lot of their partners followed me off of that. Um General Catalyst, a couple others. Um but you know, and we also got a ton of signups that day. So, I can't complain, but it not something I expected to get so much backlash um with like falsified claims and immediate like assumptions of it

being like fake. Um I'm glad like Dan's tweet who who's like one of our investors has like a thousand likes now and got all the attention it needed to dispel all of that, but man, it was a ride for sure. Yeah, I saw that tweet as well. All right. Well, let's talk Kled then. So you decided to to kind of participate in this internet capital markets uh uh realm if you will but mostly from like the uh a non-crypto background right like you kind of are are tackling this problem from like an AI background and then kind of using uh some some you know the cled token and just crypto rails in general to to amplify or to you know improve on the current on the on the product. So just curious like why you made this

choice like like what was the thought process from like okay I have this AI tool I want to participate in in this kind of ICM idea and here's like what I expect to get out of it and like why I think it's a good idea. Yeah. First I'll comment on just like the believe ecosystem. Like the reason that we're there is because it's just the most dstigmatized way to launch a token and and not get complete push back from the venture capital space which is it is really really important because for token holders at least which I mean I say this publicly it's my number one goal to make sure token holder value the fact that I've launched myself in the space means that I have to make sure token order value always goes up but that means building the biggest and best company and that comes with also raising

capital from outside funding um and and maintaining a good relationship with partners and believe is just like frankly the best way to do that. Um, so there is that. And then two, I built marketplaces in the past, obviously like Nitro is is has been up. It took me three years to solve the cold start problem on that company. And yes, it's the music space, so it's much harder. I literally had to DM every artist on planer with every record label, sign contract with them. It is difficult as [ __ ] Um, but the reality is like every marketplace has this cold start problem and cold start is like one of the hardest things to solve or fix in any capacity. Um, and the fact that launching a token means that you can evangelize this community of people to help you solve that cold sore problem

and get your your first thousand users. I commented on one of Imran's posts recently, but going from zero to one is much easier in the CT space than any other space out there because you're promoting the fact that um you're you're going to launch a product and then hopefully increase this value for token holders, right? That that's the whole point. Um I also did say going from one to zero which usually is never possible at the early stages is very likely in CT because of mass FUD and and whatever but um the best founders will you know solve the taste of time there you know um but that that's why we launched um and and it and it worked. We proved it out. We we hit several thousands of users in three weeks. We got a 11 million impressions. Now I think we're almost at

12. Um and we're getting signups and site visitors every day. Um, and it solved the fact that like now I I mean we already have the pre-existing relationships with labs and small labs that we could sell to. Um, but uh, you know, the the user consumer data that we now have is is worth a lot and big AI companies are paying attention to it. Like we had our second meeting with OpenAI 3 days ago, started with Google Deep Mind 3 days ago. Um, and I think over time the more users come on the platform, the the easier it is for us to convince these big companies to give us billion-dollar contracts and bankroll us for life. Yeah. What is the what is the nature of those meetings then? Like what do you guys like what are they interested in using Cled for? It's really the relationship building and the

fact that like if we can navigate the um like the look these companies are not going to jump the gun until they I said it publicly like they need to see a couple of things. It's one and this is my prediction but I I genuinely think it's accurate. I think it's if we hit a 100 thousand users and then all those people are uploading the camera rolls and stuff. There's no world where OpenAI ever says no to a billion dollar contract. And the reason it's it's the reason is pretty simple, right? Like OpenAI has right now two options. One, either they scrape the data or two, they go and get the enterprise data. There's there's problems with both those options. One, scraping data takes one, it's it's pretty long. Um, and two, it's not legally compliant. like you're getting billion dollar lawsuits thrown

around left and right by every company on planet Earth, right? So, scraping data is almost completely out. Um it's not relevant. It's not good. Um every single state in the US as well as like the EU are launching things that are going to prevent this in the future, right? And even right now. And then two, getting the data from enterprises. That [ __ ] sucks, man. Like I I've had to do it. like going to to PBS and Apple Film Festival and 50 other companies to get a bunch of data means you have to convince and suck the dicks of hundred different people to to try to get them to to partner with you, right? So enterprise sales is not fun and it's also not tailored, right? So like if you go to if you want writing data from uh the New York Times for example um or sorry

writing data on let's say uh the educational system and you get data from the New York Times, New York Times doesn't have only articles on the educational system. they have some right and the rest is all a bunch of random nonsense basically right so in the context of user uploaded data it solves both those problems one you're legally compliant because that's the nature of the platform you're getting the data licensed and and that means you're compliant on all fronts and that's our our number one goal it's safe secure compliant right and two um once you actually get the data and have it in house um you have a tailored data set like if open AI ever wants some specific data set on just like educational data or homework right like we curate that for them from the mass uploaded data set from our users. So it's an engine for

these people and it's it's a it's a very clear idea to them that like hey if this this company has somehow convinced hundreds of thousands of users millions of users that uploading data here is safe and secure and has proved out that it's safe and secure um we can then put out hits on data. We can say like, "Hey, um, Fled, we need 40 hours of POV data. We need 40 hours of dash cam footage. Go source it for us." And then on our marketplace, which I announced as well, like we're going to make this data terminal where you can fill these hits for an increased payout. Um, users can go and and fulfill that. Users can go and do that for them, right? So, u, that's what it's all about. The nature of these conversations, hey, like build the relationship so they know they're

very aware of us right now, right? But, uh, make sure that you actually prove it out and prove out that you have this big ass community of people that are willing to help out these big AI companies and get paid for it, right? That's the whole point. Um, so it's it's all about going viral game. All about getting more users. That's all this is all about. Yeah, man. I mean, it it feels like this whole distribution focused era of I'm 25, man. So, I'm like on the cusp of this Zoomer generation between like you you uh that that Roy Lee guy from Clue and some of these other like like SF kind of oriented people. Uh it just seems like this like distribution first mentality is just like I mean it it's a whole different world compared to like pre preocial media kind of founder

thought processes. It's a balancing act for sure. I think the I think building good product should always be the number one focus always like it should it should never stray away from that. I think me and Roy share that same ideology there. But it also does depend on the company. Like you don't want the eyeballs sometimes for some companies, but for these consumer companies, it is really important. It is really important to get those eyeballs. Um I think for CL it is the most important though compared to even something like Culie, right? Like Cluey doesn't have the necessity to go go viral every day beyond just getting more users. For us, getting more users is literally the win condition.

Like it is the actual reason why we get a billion dollar contract from OpenAI. So when I post user updates all day long, that is that just that's the highest signal for like things going good. Like if we get more users every day and more people are signing up and there's more site visitors and more traffic, that is actually the highest signal for the company ended up doing well beyond the fact that we're shipping every day. So that that I think is really important. I I think it's very valuable. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think uh in this new era you have to have like either your CMO or somebody on the team usually CEO is even better has to be pushing the agenda you know or else it's just like nobody because you know in this age like think about 25 years ago right we were both not born but people

were you know they would read the Atlantic news newspaper blog or they would you know pay attention like New York Post or New York Times that has flipped so much towards like now you just follow creators ers and individuals over brands. And so I think like like like people know you and then they know Kled and then that's a kind of like this like indistinguishable relationship whereas I feel like without that it it's really hard to kind of go from like zero to one as you say. It was same for it was same for Nility like when we were starting out like it was um I didn't do it on Twitter obviously but I did it on Instagram all day long. I would just post stories about my life and it was just me doing things in real life and frankly they they did very well. Um and

people just knew Nitril because they knew hey that's what AI was building um and still is right. So like that that's the whole point. Um yeah I 100%. Who are some of the other founders that who are some of the other founders that you know you're friends with or that you've seen that also do an incredible job at like being the founder marketing and you know kind of what what have you taken away from some from some of these others? I mean, I'll just talk on Eric Zoo, um, because that's my boy. Eric, Eric owns Sperm Racing if people aren't aware of it. He did he he ran Aviato before that as well. Um, and you know, Aviato is a great enterprise company. It's doing awesome. But across the board, like these personal brands is frankly how you secure clients and everything. Um, like Eric literally ran an enterprise company

and was posting dumb [ __ ] on Twitter all day long and and stupid [ __ ] on Instagram and and I mean dude, he was like locking in VC after VC using their data terminal, right? So, um, people bet on people and that's just the sentiment publicly and anyone that isn't aware of that is not living in reality. Um, and uh, putting your best foot forward out in the public eye and showing off that you're a real builder, um, is a really big priority. I frankly don't know many other founders that that that run it like Eric. I I think the Superpower team does great. Max and Jacob um, they definitely don't have like a personal brand compared. I mean, Max does it actually. Max Max Marion from Superpower has like a very good personal presence,

especially on LinkedIn. Um, and it's how he acquired his entire white list um for or his beta list for for Superpower, right? Um, so there are some great founders out there. I think we're going to see even more coming up in the future and hopefully like people like me, Eric and Roy and Max can lead the charge and and show it off that like, hey, this model works and um, it's important that you put yourself out there. And I mean, with AI content getting better and better, like personal branding is just also going to be more and more important over time. It is. Yeah. And I think entertainment too more than like information because information is kind of abundant now. I mean look obviously having valuable educational resources but people want to have fun. They want to like enjoy short form stuff as well.

Yeah. So Obby man I appreciate you spending some time here. Keep uh fighting the FUD. All right. It's going to it's going to keep coming. It's going to keep coming. I I think I think uh build good product equals equals thing going up for everyone. So I'm just gonna I'm just going to make sure I keep doing that. That's all I care about. You too, man. I saw Sean Sean Lee's coming on at the end of this as well, right? He's he's one of our investors. Yeah, he's one of our investors. He's very close friend. I didn't even notice.

Him and Magic are doing great things. So, you're gonna have fun talking to him for sure. Yeah. Awesome. Talk soon, man. Peace. um he will be joining us to discuss the uh state of the macro world. Uh there is a lot going on there. Um so today just wait with the Iran things and then in general uh with what he's seeing in that regard. So um before we get to that we

have some news today uh around um some of the more prominent um act like some of the more prominent stable coin news which is uh part of the stablecoin super cycle. So we're going to pull that up uh in the in the short term here and then get will up on the screen. Um so the news today is that fizz fizzer fiserf has has started a uh fi stablecoin. Um this is a stablecoin uh following the genius act. Um it is a new stablecoin tailored for institutions. It's going to utilize infrastructure from Paxos and circle. So

shout out to both of those teams who have been preparing for moments like this. Um it's supposed to be interoperable with with other leading stable coins. Um and of course launching on Salana which is does seem like the P2P are happening uh this this cycle. Uh it's currently going to be available to their own banking clients uh which has a lot of lot of large institutions in the states. Um and they're trying to stream streamline stable coin access across payments settlements and treasury functions. So excited to see how that kind of plays out. Uh from from DJ News here, um they will they'll probably launch this I would say in the given I

don't know maybe in like a week to four weeks. I just feel like a lot of these uh companies are moving really really fast. Um and and that is uh that is what Fizerve and the stable coin teams want to do. I think I mean look if I'm sitting in their shoes I'm thinking to myself how do I capture as much value as possible from this trend obviously team uh a lot of investors and uh people in the space have seen circle and seen circles success as of recent and so now people are wondering to themselves okay how do I kind of capture that guys I just think that that this trend continues for a while uh I don't see the stand uh cycles slowing down and I

expect uh overall for for this to kind of keep on scaling up faster and faster. That conversation with Aby was pretty interesting. Um I think a lot of people may not agree or believe it with regards to the actual uh growth of u in terms of acquisition or acquisition stuff. But yeah, I think that crypto Twitter can really lash out at people, especially if you're uh if you're, you know, doing things differently and making a lot of noise, which I think other people are doing. Uh, but big bang announcements. So, um,

looking for getting Will up here. should be up here any minute now. Um, and yeah, we have another segment today. I think we're going to focus on the macro side of things today. Um, I'm curious I'm curious kind of what's what's going to happen here. Um, in the next couple weeks, I think Will has been posting a lot about macro. Uh, has has been working deeply with some of the investment firm stuff. Um, so excited to to kind of take take his word for it, learn about what he's seeing, um, and understand the state of that side of of the world. Um, been following Will's content for a while. I I feel like he was pretty deep into the Bitcoin space prior to kind of doing more on the like

investment advising stuff with Krock, but we'll see kind of his take there on the macro, on the rates, on Bitcoin, and more. Um, and yeah, looking forward to having the next guest though. BTC now trading at 1028. Uh, hype with a big bounce to up to 36 uh.7. That one looks pretty good still. Had quite a dip over over the weekend across the board. Um, yeah, man. this this war stuff is just really really really really exhausting and I think just problematic for for a lot of people who are uh you know tired of seeing this stuff play out. Not happy

about the state of things. Um so yeah, we're going to get Will up up on here. Uh I know he's coming to the city soon. Looking forward to having him. Uh again, a busy permissionless week this week. Uh, but we'll get him up uh and get him fired up about the macro, get his take on things uh and see where we are. So, without further ado, we'll bring Will up and we'll get started. Will's in the house.

Yo yo, good morning, man. Good to see how we Good to see you, too. Oh, there you see black screen now. I can see it. There we go. How we doing on the uh on the state of things, huh? We had a little bit of retaliation this morning from Iran, huh? Yeah, that's right, man. It's been a interesting couple days. I was just in the Mediterranean. It was good to good to get home yesterday. Actually, I I landed back in the states and then um the US had had conducted the attack I think like 15 minutes or at least the you know the uh the news came out with that they had attacked like 15 minutes before I landed. So, it's rough.

Yeah. Couple days. You've been spending quite a bit of time then and like just thinking about the macro side of things as well um with regards to kind of rates and just kind of seeing how things how things have been playing out. Um, you know, now that now that things have have escalated a bit, you know, do you have any, you know, takes on kind of how that affects global liquidity or just general thoughts on um, you know, how this could play out from from a more macro perspective? Sure. Yeah. First of all, you know, nice to meet you, Andy. Um, sucks we we couldn't get on uh last time, you know, we had like some issue with like uh servers or Google or something. Um, whole internet. Yeah, the the whole internet decided to go down before

before I hopped on here. So, um, nice to nice to finally be on. Um, yeah, this is, you know, obviously something I've I've been thinking about as market participant alongside, you know, a lot of people. I'm not going to LAR that I'm a geopolitical expert, but definitely has been a, you know, an interesting two weeks. Um, you know, I think if we kind of go back to to earlier this year, um, you know, if we start, I guess, you know, with Trump kind of getting getting into into the office, um, you know, there's this this huge kind of narrative around, uh, Trump that he was going to cut government spending and and help kind of the, uh, you know, debt deficit uh, situation here in the United States.

Um it's no secret we have very you know unsustainable um you know deficits here in the US and we continue to pile on more and more debt. Um and Trump kind of you know part of part of his uh you know messaging throughout his campaign and and the beginning of uh you know first month month and a half of when he got into office uh was that uh you know he was going to try to combat that spending. Just so you know my my AirPods just like made that noise that they might die soon. So I might have to switch over to my computer in a second. Um yeah, I in in February became like incredibly bearish uh because you know they were talking about how they were going to cut spending. You know, we had valuations near all-time highs. Uh you know, the market melted down. Um and I think you

know just personally myself and uh you know underestimated just how quickly um you know they kind of completely pivoted on you know all of all of the messaging that they had been putting out for the first month and a half really because the bond market uh threw a fit. And so, you know, we we saw Trump basically do a complete 180. Um, we still haven't seen any of these trade deals, you know, materialize, but, you know, obviously walked back tariffs. Um, you know, we saw everything with Doge basically get, you know, effectively walked back. Yeah. Um, now we've got the big beautiful bill that we're waiting on, you know, to pass here, you know, at some point later this year, which is going to add probably a another couple hundred billion dollars to the deficit. So, um, you know, all that to say, basically, you know, Trump

was probably the only person that could, you know, had the balls to to maybe, you know, cut cut spending for real and, um, you know, was was forced to walk that back in a week and a half. Um, and so, you know, in my opinion, like, if if Trump's not going to do it, it's it's going to be tough for anybody any politician that wants to, you know, make a career out of being a politician to be incentivized to to cut spending. Um, because obviously the people want the the money spet to to keep flowing. Um, and so, you know, in my opinion, we've basically flipped into like full-on Ponzi mode in the US. Um, you know, now they've completely changed the messaging or you Scott Best at the beginning of this year was talking about, you know, the we're going to get the 10ear down.

Um, and you know, now they've completely flipped to we're going to grow our way out of it. Um, so now it's, you know, we're no longer going to try to get the spending down. We're just going to, you know, juice growth and that's going to close the gap between debt, GD, and GDP. Um, you know, I think we're at a very interesting time now, though. um where we're starting to see, you know, some of the data come in soft. Um you know, like re retail data last week. Yeah. Um you know, a couple these couple of these other data prints u which have been, you know, showing maybe like early signs of of you know, somewhat of a a growth slowdown. Um you know, some other dynamics obviously geopolitically, especially over the last couple weeks with oil. Um you know, with all the the turmoil in the Middle East and you know,

does that have you know, is that just transitory? Does that have you know, lasting impacts? These are questions that really come down to like you know questions about the the conflict itself and is it going to sustain which you know again I'm not a geopolitical expert so I don't have a great answer to um and then you know you all we also have um you know looming on the horizon a new Fed chair that's going to be coming in next year and obviously Trump's been incredibly um you know leaning towards wanting wanting rates to come down he's been you know obviously dunking on pal yeah screaming at pal so is the Fanny May guy who's worried about the real estate collapse. Yeah. Right. So, uh so yeah, now now it seems like uh there's very high probability that they're going to bring in like a giga dove next year

that's going to that's going to cut rates. And so, you know, I think the the kind of back and forth is will the cutting of rates reignite inflation versus, you know, kind of the the downward pressure um you know, on on on rates across the board. Um I think this is a this is a difficult question when I'm I'm kind of figuring out um you know for context I'm always long Bitcoin have a core Bitcoin position um you know in in my kind of like trading portfolio I like to take you know these kind of like larger liquid bets um in 2023 you know very long like Coinbase calls um you know last year I was like publicly talked

about how I was long like terolf for this you know AIHPC kind of transition beginning of this year I I you know was uh was very long Alibaba um you know kind of the the the trade I've been I've been um you know putting on over the last month or so um has been you know shorting the the long end of the yield curve basically because of this complete 180 from from the Fed from the Feds not the Federal Reserve but you know federal government from cutting spending to now completely you know walking that back and saying we're going to we're going to juice everything. Yep. Um but now you know the information has changed a little bit in terms of you know we've started to see some some softer um you know uh economic data come in. Yep. And

you know that should that should be bullish for bonds. While at the same time from a longer term perspective if the Fed's cutting rates that should juice inflation and that should make you know longer longer duration debt less favorable to own um for investors. So um you know this is kind of the the back and forth in my mind and you know considering you know kind of um actively managing the position a bit um which I am slightly down on but you know I think the the highest conviction thing is that the yield curve probably will will steepen um you know there's also some things like you know feds are talking about you know implementing you know Besson's been talking a ton about this the the SLR exemption stuff. Yep. um which is kind of like hidden QE in in a way, right? It's like it's not it's not

the same as QE, but it's kind of just like something that that that they can pull on that helps, you know, global liquidity. Um yeah, basically it it's like the leverage ratio that banks need to to hold treasuries. And so, you know, they've done this like during COVID. Um they adjusted this to try to stimulate demand for treasuries. Um and you know, it seems like they're trying to do that now. Um, I think the problem is, you know, just if you know, if I tell you that you can you don't need as much collateral to to, you know, buy my toenails, that doesn't that doesn't, you know, necessarily mean that you want to buy them. Yeah. So, you know, I think for for banks to to want to buy longer duration uh treasuries, you know, you need to see the yield curve get steeper

uh because banks, you know, borrow on the short end and lend long. Um and so I think uh you know the SLR exemption stuff doesn't necessarily mean that there will be more demand but um you know I think in the short term you've got kind of a culmination of you know the SLR exemption stuff seems to be getting you know pushed forward you know some some you know uh softer data uh is coming out. So um and it seems like the the big beautiful bill which is obviously going to add a ton to the to the deficit seems like it's getting slightly delayed in terms of when it's going to pass. And I think the culmination of of these three things have put some downward pressure on yields uh in the short term. But this is something that I still have pretty high

conviction on, you know, on like a 8 to to 12 month basis. But tactically, I'm thinking about uh managing the position a bit. I think very long term, right? Don't want to own debt. Um but yeah, these are some of the the things that are, you know, kind of, you know, going back and forth on in in my mind here in the short term. So then hypothetically if I if you were uh you know Fed Chair Powell at this previous meeting would you have lowered rates? Would you have cut rates or would you have kept them the same as as he did? And why? Yeah. I think it's a tough question because you know I think whether Powell is going to say this or not, right? He's got uh you know this kind of whole thing with he doesn't want to let Trump you know [ __ ]

him around publicly, right? Like if Trump just kind of like backed off of it, I bet he would have he would have considered it you know perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, I think, you know, it's a it's a tough tough question to answer. Um, but yeah, that that that's been that's been my main focus. I've also been, you know, tactically, you know, trading in and out of some some onchain stuff. Um, it's funny you just said Avon because um, one of one of these trades was like buying CLD at 5 mil, selling 25 30 mil. Yeah. What do you think about these ICM things? Like, are you bullish on this stuff? Like CL do fitted? I mean, like your personal take, not financial advice. the the only Yeah, of course, you know, my I got to say this because uh compliance is going

to get on me actually. I'm glad you just reminded me. You know, not financial advice, my personal opinions, not a reflection of my employer, etc. Um yeah, I' I've been paying attention somewhat to the stuff. Um the only one that's super interesting to me, and you know, I don't want to like shell it a ton. Um and I've been like trading in and out of it. you know, I might like talk about it and I might be out of the position by this evening, but so disclosure there. But, um, the one that is really interesting to me is Kled. Um, like I said, I bought it at like five mil, sold like 2530 mil because there's like crazy run up in a short period of time. But over the last couple days, you know, obviously like there's been a ton of uh, you know, in crypto call FUD, but you

know, um, you know, criticism around the Yeah. around the project, dude. And I just asked him about all of it and he I mean, he had answers for everything. So, yeah. Yeah. I uh you know I I obviously don't know the guy personally, but you know, he seems like uh he's he's somewhat of a somewhat of a sharp guy and you know, obviously seems to be like very excited about the whole the whole project and he's he's young, right? He's like two years younger than me. So, um you know, I think like there's been some like maybe PR, you know, mis missteps here and there, but it doesn't seem like the guy is a total scammer. But, you know, regardless, I think like pattern recognition in my brain like reminds me similar, you feel similar to like AI6Z early on where like there was that

period of like very heavy heavy FUD after like kind of the initial runup. You know, all these coins usually do a 80% draw down 70 80% draw down after the you know, initial run up and you know, Kled just kind of had its first one over the last two weeks. So, you know, full disclosure, like I did did buy some back of what I sold in, you know, the 25 $30 million range uh last night and and bought a little more this morning. But it's not a not a not a big not it's not a big position, right? It's a small token. Um but yeah, I have been I've been somewhat paying attention to this stuff. Um, I think it's I think it's very interesting because, uh, you know, obviously you're going to see kind of the convergence of both TRAI and and crypto, but I feel like this, you know,

ICM stuff is kind of the the first real convergence it seems like of u kind of the, you know, SF VC crowd in crypto. So, you know, in terms of like pools of capital to come in and bid these things that that aren't cryptonative, you know, I think Circle is a great representation of, you know, as as we see, you know, these these crypto companies IPO um you know and and have actual earnings that you know Wall Street feels like they can they can value um you know that's an external pool of capital that can can you know bid crypto assets that outside of our you know CT small world um and it feels like you know this ICM stuff again I'm not bullish on all of it I don't own launchcoin um but it feels like you know this is uh this is you know kind of an

area where you could potentially you know I think low likelihood of course in the grand scheme of things but could likely relative to other crypto assets bring in this kind of like external pool of capital which is like this SF like VC type of type of money. So it's something I I find find they just have a different like perspective towards crypto as like they approach crypto as like a as a component of their business not as like the business per se like it's it's a different way of approaching building projects I think and protocols than what you would see in from like cryptonative founders. Yeah, I agree. Um, you know, I think just the way that, yeah, the messaging, you know, like for example, like, you know, the way that Kled has been, you know, messaging things, but,

you know, a lot a lot of these projects that I've been following to like following less closely. Yeah, it definitely is slightly slightly different approach. Um, yeah, I think I think the uh, you know, like AI data, you know, narrative makes a ton of sense in terms of you know, you know, everything that you know, scale as well, right? Obviously talking about this. I I didn't listen to him before I came on, so I'm not going to repeat everything, but uh you know this like private private you know sector of data that you know these companies these large you know big tech companies need to tap into but you know you need kind of like a median to to to get the data. It's definitely something that I think is interesting. So uh yeah. Yeah. on the on the data front. I'm curious like how

much you use onchain data to inform your you know your your portfolio, your trading decisions, investing, and just kind of like what sources do you use? You know, kind of like where do you get the most signal from? Whether it's different brands and companies or specific metrics like just curious kind of your thought process as to actually using onchain data to make choices where you get it, what what you know kind of metrics, etc. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people, you know, going back like two, three years ago, a lot of people knew me for like the Bitcoin onchain data. Yeah. Um, yeah. This, uh, this is something that I think I used to be like extremely valuable and still is like somewhat

valuable, but perhaps not as much or at least like the the certain, you know, data points that we used to look at. Yeah. Um I think like you know the ETF the ETF uh you know flows have have obscured away some of the signal on chain. But you know in fairness um there's like this guy named Check onchain who's like one of these big uh you know onchain focused onchain analytics like focused people. I think he has like a research firm or newsletter that he works on. He used to work at Glass Node. you know, he he's uh he's very, you know, smartly like pointed out like ETF flows are still like a smaller pool of capital relative to the overall, you know, Bitcoin network, but I do think they've obscured things away. But like outside of just ETFs, you know, you have all these

custodians now and, you know, prime brokers and all these things. So, it's just it's not as simple as, you know, you you can track like whales and the profitability metrics get skewed and all these things that you know, you do your best to filter all those things out, but it's like incredibly difficult and like very nuanced. Um, I'm not a data scientist, but that's kind of like what I learned as, you know, as as time passed. And so with the holders.

Yep. Oh, one sec, guys. Yeah, I can. I think we're just

We can just phase well out. I think it's it's okay. Well, I think we'll just we'll let we'll just let you go. I don't know. One sec, guys. Just uh I can I Well, I think we'll let you go

here and um we'll we'll see you this week at the conference. Are you going to be out permissionless then? All righty, man. All right. Well, thanks for coming. Sorry for the rough stop here. All right, buddy. All right, guys. Up next, we have Brian from um Chorus One. Uh I've I've uh been at a couple conferences with Brian um and looking forward to having him on. Um he's been pretty heavy in the investing space. um doing a lot of things for for the venture side and also uh in in the staking landscape. Um so we we'll get him on we had we had a cut will real shortly he had just a brief drop on on the audio and video side but no worries

we'll get Brian up here in a sec get him in the back end and uh keep the show rolling. I think what what Will was commenting on about the macro side of things was was particularly interesting where I mean like we saw you know we had we had these these you know politicians come out and say look no war no you know we're going to cut spending austerity and then I mean what within a couple months of of the presidency we are back to spending and now I would anticipate that that probably even scales more so um we're going to get back deeper into the crypto roots now with Brian uh and welcome him up to the stage So, what's up, Ryan? Hey, Andy. Thanks so much for having me. Very impressed with your like sharp onpoint uh production here. So excited to be on.

Appreciate it. Still, you know, we're still trying to, you know, put it all together a little bit here and there, but it's good to have you. Where are you calling from? I'm in London this week. Oh, man. Cool. Are you headed to to Can next week? I am. Yeah, I will be there. You you as well? Yeah. Yeah, it should be a good one. We have uh permissionless this week here in New York and then Ken next. So, it's going to be quite the quite the run. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, man. Well, yeah, I would I I'd love to see you out there and just kind of chat there as well. And I wanted to bring you up today to just kind of hear about what you're most interested in recently from a personal perspective, from courses perspective. Um, we've been kind of studying some of your research

around uh just like you know proof ofstake networks, all the work that you guys do with the validators um and just on the investing side as well. I actually saw Xavier spun out his new fund um today as well. Fractice. Yeah, absolutely. I mean I think on the investing side um you know we do some balance sheet investment from chorus one but then I would say practice is definitely you know I'm very involved in there as well and that's uh that that's where we focus a lot in in terms of investment so it's a very early stage prect stage venture fund actually majority six I think of the eight deals we've done have all been some sort of

crypto AI related so it's been there's been quite a bit of an AI I focus on that side. What are some of those deals that you're excited about? Like what are the problems that they're solving? Why is it investable? Just generally curious with this trend. It seems to be basically verifiability, some some form of like decentralized compute or inference um or effectively like making uh new forms of LLMs possible like onchain through some sort of interaction or something of that sense. You know, I did a podcast with Hib from Dragonfly uh last week and I asked him the question like, "Hey, if you were in a VC, what mob market in crypto would you focus on?" And he said, "Well, having some kind of chatbased, natural

language based wallet." And I also think this is one of the most interesting areas. Actually the very last investment we did with practice was exactly in that kind of vein and I would say another related topic that I've been you know thinking about quite a bit is the security aspect. So you know security is just so hard and you know after the buy attack I was I was really being like hey can I fully verify what I'm doing here? this thing I'm signing on ledger is it actually correspond to the thing on the screen and like almost impossible.

So I do feel that if we actually want to have good security to be able to be to say hey this is what I want to happen then some AI can create a transaction. Now of course the security becomes very crucial here because you have to make sure the transaction actually matches the intent right so you have to have some sort of layer there but then afterwards you know that can get executed and I think that way we can uh first of all massively improve the user experience and the ability for people to interact with onchain systems and I think we can also massively upgrade uh security and I think if you look at how something like chatd is you know completely transformed how I mean I

barely use Google at this point, right? And I think many of people are like that. So I think I would expect the same kind of thing what's going to happen around wallets as well and that you know we mostly interact with with our crypto assets via an LLM. So I do think that is a really a big big area that could be super interesting. Yeah. You know what's funny is my current like interpretation of chain abstraction is going to be effectively no no just just operate on chain using some LLM like a very like like a very like lazy mindset like no no no why do I need to click all the buttons and use the ledger why can't we just have this kind of a more like assistantbased uh usage of the technology for sure yeah absolutely I mean I think chain

abstraction it has to you know it has to really be abstracted away fully otherwise it's it's just it just adds more confusion to it. Yeah. Um, one of your recent posts was was actually around this security aspect around self-custody and you wrote that it's it's it's really hard to recommend self- custody to the vast majority of people. And this is, you know, this is a a a a problem of the UX, but then it it it kind of like directly conflicts the ethos of the space of kind of of some of that be your own bank, you know, that type of stuff. Do you think that some of these investments that you guys are doing or this general like LLM natural language um you know presentation will uh allow a return to self-custody or or

are these LLMs and such more oriented and optimized around like custodial wallets exchanges uh and being able to interact in that way? I can see both ways but I I do think I mean I you know I had some relatives right who uh ended up buying some Bitcoin, you know, relatively early on and then I would like help set up a ledger and, you know, try to teach him and each time they require so much support and, you know, know all the time is like, hey, I don't know, that's not working anymore or like how to like claim these rewards or like and and they just realize that even with a serious effort, people who are not deeply in the crypto space, it's it's just a nightmare and

it's so hard and and now of course at the time there wasn't really that much options And at the time, you know, I think we still had a lot from the Mount Gox days and these kind of hacks. You were like, "Oh, you you can't hold your uh keys on a centralized exchange is, hey, not your keys, not your coins type thing." But, you know, today you I was talking with the guy at Black Rockck a while ago who works on the ETFs there. And you know, for most people, okay, you can buy your Bitcoin uh in your normal brokerage account and it's cold storage with Coinbase and you know, super liquid and if you want to borrow against it, you can do it from your brokerage accounts. You know, if you see all those things, you're like, that's actually

superior. I think for the vast majority of people to like, you know, try to do your own wallet type stuff. But I think the only thing I can see changing that would be some kind of AI that really helps you do that. Now, where exactly are the coins or or the key stored? Yeah, maybe it doesn't even matter that much. I think in the end, I don't know if people are going to care. Um but yeah I I so I think that is probably going to be one of the most interesting and powerful areas and maybe also one of the areas where crypto really has a massive advantage because you know if if you're going to try to do some sort of chat AI based interaction in the traditional financial systems since all of these systems are so closed off and walled

going to be much harder to do it than in crypto you know where everything is open and interoperable and composable by default. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that is uh when you look at the at the the intersection of these two technologies that is kind of what you see consistently people opting into using crypto rails for. I tend to agree I'm not sure that's really going to matter. It's it's more of just either way as long as it's optimized for the end user and for people who are let's just say much less cryptonative than that than than the rest of us. And I think that that end result will also that's a win and then it'll trend towards a more secure solutions over time. Kind of on a on a whole different note here. You guys

have been working quite a bit on the institutional front when it comes to staking. We don't yet have a ETH ETF a staked ETH ETF. Um I think I saw something from Bloomberg, Salana, Avalanche, Cardano, Ripple, all these proof ofstake networks. um or you know most of those are are coming onto you know the big stage right and I'm I'm curious when you're speaking to investors from Chorus's perspective how much interest are you seeing from them to actually participate in staking of these networks and and you know when we're talking about like these larger networks a lot of it is to kind of you know basically break even with their inflation and avoid dilution but I'm curious like how much of that yield

component are these in institutional people interested in um you know and is that something that you're seeing at like the larger levels uh for you know these types of clients? Yeah. So you can look at this in different ways. First of all if you zoom out a little bit I mean it's also maybe tied with my conversation I had with the person from Black Rockck right where he was like he speaks with all these people you know buying ETFs and there the demand is really super overwhelmingly just Bitcoin right now. So I think the the larger demand for E soul is a little bit there and then I think for the long tail it's really almost non-existence right now. Of course, that hopefully is going to change, but I think that's kind

of the situation right now. But then if you look at ETFs, you know, if you look at any traditional market ETFs, cost is a huge factor, right? Like you generally have the largest ETFs or the cheapest ETFs. And now, of course, if you can earn, you know, 5%, seven or some percentage, you can, you know, you can cut the cost to zero, you can pay an additional yield. So I think it's going to be very very crucial for ETFs to pay you know as high a yield and have as low cost as possible like today you have staking ETFs in Europe and you know there's still higher cost a lot of them but I think with competition this is going to go away the cost going to go down dramatically and then staking becomes super crucial and I think what

becomes especially crucial what's been one of the big challenges for the ETFs is that of course ideally you want to stake as much as possible right ideally you want to maybe stake 100% % of it. But then the challenge is that the ETFs generally have to serve a sort of you know T+1 type redemption. So people want to withdraw from the ETF, they have to return uh the money the next day and that doesn't really match up with the unstaking periods uh of these different networks. So I think that has been one of the hardest challenges where people try to figure out you know what are different solutions to manage this. I think with the pectra upgrade it probably becomes a bit easier but still there's a lot of complexities around

that and I think the regulators are very much like oh you know they worry very much about the edge case like what if now you know 60% of the customers want to redeem it like at once then how are you going to deal with that even if that's not a very realistic scenario because you know realistically you could just be like ah you just take 90% of it or something and you know that should be fine pretty much always. But I think dealing with these kind of edge cases definitely been one of the biggest challenges around the staking ETFs. Yeah, it's funny. In Europe, they have staking ETFs and uh before they have credit cards. What is this world?

We do have credit cards in Europe too. But yeah, for sure. I mean, in some ways obviously US way ahead, some ways behind. So you know you always have this kind of what is some of the latest research that that the team has been doing um in into you know outside of AI crypto um stuff. What are what are some of the more interesting kind of companies that you guys are looking at or researching or just new ideas that um you know that may be a bit more contrarian now or less popular uh but but could end up being more you know more investable more exciting for the larger community in the future right I mean that's that's what venture is right it's being early it's being contrarian

I'm just curious like what you're seeing as contrarian but right now uh that you other really think yeah a good question honestly I don't have a great answer right now I mean I think when it comes to our course one research it's not so investment uh focused for the most part uh like there a lot of our research focus is around performance optimization and like you know how can we do things around me and you know and especially in Salana this is a very very interesting uh market where a lot of things are happening it's very dynamic we have done some investments around me as well, although those I think are, you know, not super ex, you know, they're a little esoteric

sometimes. You have to be kind of deep in the weeds. Yeah. But the larger the larger SP I don't know larger opportunities. I mean, an area personally I find I found interesting and kind of cool and I've made some investments in personally, although not so much of course one has been the DI area. Uh so I do think that's a cool and it's different and I think it's also something that can like you know inspire people and get them excited about because you know I think one of the one of the things we've also really seen um and and I've really come to learn in in in a painful way in some uh in many cases it's just that in the end you need to have people who really want to buy

your token and who are excited about your token and you know just some other kind of protocol that sits in somewhere and you know if it got a lot of traction maybe collect some fees and you know maybe they get some value flow to the token. A lot of these things are just not interesting and they're not exciting and then if you just value things based on the revenues it generates that's uh very hard and like very few things can really justify a high valuation that way. So I think that's why it becomes, you know, especially important also to have like a larger vision that's kind of inspiring that people want to buy into and people want to be part of and and I think that is something I really feel um just should be a major criteria on and

way to think about when you make investments. One last one for you with regards to the proof ofstake landscape and the staking landscape as a whole. Um John Adler put out a interesting proposal with regards to Celestia and this idea of of proof ofstake networks moving away from proof of stake actually towards this kind of more governance concept saying that you can rely on LSTs and you don't need this kind of proof ofstake model to uh you know build out a secure network and actually have that kind of Byzantine resistance. What's your thought on this on on this uh proposal? Is this like is is this something that you think is is worth pursuing? Is it is it kind of

far-fetched? What's your take? So, I have to admit I actually haven't seen that proposal or read it. Okay. But I would say the larger question is an interesting one, right? Because I think traditionally we thought of proof of stake as something like hey you put up this economic value and then it's slashable and that kind of is what the security is you know the economic security and I actually think Solana was one of the first uh and I think it was maybe Anatoli that you know sort of pushed against this and they were like well this economic security is kind of a meme and you know you do have a bunch of the largest proof ofstake networks like Salana or Avalanche that actually don't have slashing. Yeah. And then I think it

really becomes something where the token holders kind of choose, you know, generally based on the reputation or some other factors, a bunch of actors that then run these nodes. And but there's actually nothing really at risk, right? Nothing can be slashed. So you can kind of see from that perspective that you know I think the whole like you have to put up some collateral to guarantee behavior is not or or like you know we we've been a wormhole guardian forever. a wormhole, you know, it's basically a multisig, right? You could basically have like 19 guardians that, you know, jointly manage all these uh these keys and they have to sign collectively and, you know, that

can be very secure because you have all of these different entities and and they each have their own reputation. So, I do feel that economic security and this kind of economic game theoretic slashing type proof of stake thing isn't always necessary. And I do think we're going to see probably more experiments in that direction as well where and and I think we have seen that with new networks as well where you see more launches that are some kind of proof of authority small initial validator set that's chosen by the team and that run these chains and that can certainly work fine uh for a while. We'll see what the end state is. Obviously, you have on the other side more networks like, you know, Ethereum that that try to really go the

other extreme and have full economic security, lots of decentralization, lots of different validators. So, I think it's great to see all these different experiments. But I I do think we're going to see a lot more experimentation and and different approaches to, you know, kind of the the current model of proof of stake. Interesting. Yeah, it like it's the slashing come it's the slashing part that people get uh kind of you know wrapped up in their head about about one is is it necessary two if the networks as you said don't have slashing then kind of you know it begs the question of like of like why you know why do we have to put stake up then right like why not just you know have that capital be used in a different way um so you should you

should check out the post I think there's going to be more you know changes in this in this kind of proof of stake landscape. But once again, I think as you mentioned, the investors want the yield. They a little bit cautious about it. We'll see what the market structure bill could potentially do in the states for these kind of staking ETFs. Um, you know, and I hope to see an Ethereum one by the end of the year. I think it's possible. So, cool. Thank you so much, Andy. Yeah, Brian, it's been a pleasure to have you on. I'll see you in France as well. And it's good to have you on. Yeah, would love to catch up there. Thanks so much and see you in Cheers, man. All right, guys, we've got the debate up next. Uh

we've got the clubs debate between Nick and Doug. Um first up, before we jump into that, we've got a larger task or a larger conversation at hand. Again, Texas and Bitcoin go hand in hand. So, in this news, we have Texas launching a Bitcoin reserve. Um this is pretty pretty insane. Again, just more and more of these announcements will keep happening, right? You're going to have um countries adopting Bitcoin. You're going to have um actual nation states uh that are like sovereign wealth funds adopting Bitcoin. You're going to have um legislation around it. And so in this sense, what's happening here is it's the

first US state with a formal reserve. Um, Governor Abbott signs this into law authorizing BTC holdings. Um, it's going to actually be managed by the state comproller and advisory boards. Um, and yeah, people will fund it publicly, taxes, private donations. Um, and it's really just going to keep as a pro Bitcoin state. So, um, I think that this is something that we'll see more and more of. And and yeah, that just wanted to bring this up because I just think that uh this type of legislation in the states was farfetched a couple years ago and now it's Yes, I do. All right, guys.

We have the debate up next. We've got Nick and Doug in the back waiting to come on. Um I'm looking forward to having them on and to to see their perspective. So we got Doug is representing Fogo, Nick is representing Celestia. Well, Doug's, you know, ambient and Fogo and and the core conversation here today is going to be around the different approaches to, uh, building central limit order books and really just high throughput applications as a start. Um and so uh the goal for today is to understand the trade-offs of these two different mechanisms between uh effectively shared state L1's um general purpose L1's aka shared state

general purpose roll-ups or L2s application specific L1's so a a chain like Hyperlid um or a app specific chain like a rollup uh with a single sequencer. So excited to get this rolling out. Uh, we're going to get them up here in a second and should be a good conversation. First debate on the rollup TV. Excited to have it. Excited to to learn. Feel like I'm going to be doing a lot of sitting back and relaxing on this one. Um, so we'll see. We'll get him up here in a sec and get it started.

Give us just a couple sec. My main goal here is to understand basically the best the best way to build something like a club onchain and I think you can even expand this outside of like central limit order books just any sort of high throughput application um and just kind of understand you know why there's there's better infrastructural designs for these uh and and what that is really going to make up. Um, so we're going to talk about liquidity composability MEV um and just generally how we're looking at

this. Uh, from that perspective, we're going to try to figure out why Doug is building on Fogo and what the infrastructural designs that they made in particular to accommodate clubs were. Um, and how and I do have a feeling this is going to end up being kind of like a single sequencer versus decentralized L1 type of conversation. Um, but we shall see. and we we're we're going to get them in and get get this thing going. So, just give us a second or two here to get them loaded up and we'll get ready to go.

All right, guys. Give us one second. We'll get them loaded up. All right, guys. Give us just a couple

sec. We'll get them in. We have Doug and Nick loading up in the background. And again guys, just want to uh iterate that that the goal of this is is to understand the trade-offs in design between the different architectures for clubs. Uh and really just for any kind of like high throughput application. Um that that is going to be the main prerogative today. Um and again kind of Doug will represent the high throughput L1 uh on a shared state, right? He is representing Fogo and Nick will most likely rep the uh application specific rollup. Um but I think it's more of just L1's versus rollups in a sense today. So um first debate on the TV. Uh trying out

new frame, new technical setup here. So give us a sec guys. All right, guys. While we're waiting, I'm going to take a peek at the timeline. See what's going on here.

Wow. It seems like Yep. Euphoria's uh app has been all over the timeline. I think they finally let people tweet about it. I don't know if if you guys have seen it with the uh that's actually probably going to be a good example for this conversation as well. Uh but it's like this gambling app movement up 40% in the last 24 hours while everything else flatted down. What's going on? That I do not know. That I do not know. Trump's calling it quits on the war.

All right, guys. G give us just a quick sec here. Uh should be almost ready to go. Um just sorting some stuff out in the back end. Appreciate it. Pushing the limits of the uh Oh my god. Can't believe we're seeing World War II before Mona Maynet from Naruto.

All right, guys. We should be up and up and live in a second. Uh looking forward to this one. Got a good 30 minutes or so. All right, guys. Give us just one or two

more minutes and we'll be live um with the club debate. Should get Doug up here in in in the back. Nick as well and uh get fired up. All righty, guys. Welcome, welcome,

Nick, Doug, to the World of T for the first debate. I appreciate you guys working with us there in the background. Um, and good to have you both. Uh I think the goal of today is to understand the trade-offs between the uh kind of different ways and in infrastructures to build high performance high throughput applications. In this case we have clubs as the main as the main use case for um it applies to pretty much any and all um of these different types of applications. So, why don't we jump right in first with just some brief intros from you guys about uh Sure. Pleasure to be back, Andy. Thanks

for having me. Excited to talk about clubs, uh, specifically clubs on blobs. Um, so I'm Nick, uh, work at Celestia Labs and we're building a high throughput DA layer, layer 1 to support all kinds of applications that need customization and high throughput. And we think that cloves are actually one of the first application use cases that has really hit PMF um, sort of showcased by hyperlquid success. But we're still in the very early innings of like how this uh market will evolve and what the future of clubs will look like on chain.

And uh more broadly we think that um like every application is going to eventually hit these same sort of like dilemmas of like scaling and throughput and also customizing their chain for the specific use case. So this is kind of like a microcosm of a much bigger conversation I think. So, I'm excited to have this with Doug, who is obviously a leading expert. Cool. Well, thanks for thanks for having me, guys. Great to uh great to be here. Longtime fan of the show, so glad to glad to be on. Um yeah, so uh my name is Doug. I'm uh co-founder of uh Fogo, which is an upcoming chain that's uh that's an L1 uh SPM based. Uh and

basically chain has it's kind of optimized for high throughput uh low latency and and specifically focusing on kind of onboarding trading trading applications and kind of supporting uh kind of what what's needed for kind of the level of trading that people are used to on tradi or or sexis. Um in parallel I also uh founder of ambient finance which which is also building on top of fogo and and specifically building a club per uh application now. So uh kind of sitting sitting on both sides of the app and the chain side but uh yeah interesting interesting uh interesting area excited excited to talk with you guys about it. Yeah, guys, for sure. Thanks for joining. Um, excited to kind of understand the trade-offs here

in the perspectives and thought processes. And I think the general idea here is to understand between um the different approaches for building these hybrid applications uh specifically with uh the with in this case being clubs um in other cases being other kind of non-financialized applications, consumer apps, etc. So, um Doug, why don't we start from your perspective and just give a you know kind of opening statement with regards to why you think the design of pogo in this case uh a a L1 that has a club on it with this kind of atomic composability and shared state is the right way uh and and what trade-offs do you guys inherently accept

by doing it in that way and then we'll give we'll give Nick uh the opportunity to do the same yeah so I I think uh kind of the core the core problem that clubs in general face really any trading application faces is like on a blockchain uh right when you have assets whose values are fluctuating rapidly uh kind of blockchains are not out of the box built for that that situation. Um, and so right in traditional financial markets, uh, kind of these high frequency systems are are very centralized. And that kind of allows you to deal with like some nitty-gritty problems about how transactions are processed and the latency they're processed in and the order they're processed in. And there are kind of some

important guarantees there that just don't work out of the out of the box on uh on blockchains or even distributed systems. So like right typically we call those mev uh some capacity or another. So with Fogo uh you know what we've done is we've first started like because Salana is a very successful ecosystem but it it does have like problems with this and particularly uh have been difficult to get to work on Salana because of the block times uh even though they're fast 400 milliseconds is still pretty pretty slow in HFT world and a lot can happen and kind of the block producers can play funny games with how transactions are are sorted. So I think we'd probably all in this room agree that to make clobs or or similar really any kind of trading application

work where uh you know people can extract a lot of value you kind of need to be more opinionated about the rules the rules of the chain. So we try to kind of our goal is to keep the chain um as Solana compatible as possible from from an execution environment and I think that gives you a lot of nice composability with existing protocols but we have made trade-offs in in kind of the centralization versus performance uh space. So in particular we uh we do what's called multilocal consensus where uh the validators are coll-located at a data center. Um there's kind of fallback procedures for them to move to other data centers or even fall back to global consensus. But like in general in the happy path uh validators are colloccated and that just allows you to achieve you

know much lower latencies in our case 40 milliseconds uh or less. And then then we also are opinionated about how uh transactions have to be sorted, how transactions have to be prioritized. And again, right like on a general purpose blockchain that's that's kind of that kind of breaks. So so a big one and this is a big reason hyperlquid has been successful is uh for example on a clo it's important that market makers kind of can't get steamrololled on on their quotes. Uh so Hyperlid right like prioritizes cancels on on clobs. Um, and that's just that, you know, obviously market makers are a lot more uh comfortable quoting uh liquidity uh at at large size and and good prices. So, we we've we've definitely made some trade-offs and and I think like as as we

discussed, we'll probably agree on a lot more than we disagree with, but that's that's in general kind of our take at Fogo. So, okay. So there are so maybe this debate isn't actually as far off as we thought considering there's validator collocation happening which is sounds very similar to you know a single sequencer type of model but Nick from your perspective when when you're looking at this like kind of clobs on blobs versus uh you know whether it be a a general purpose L1 or a application specific L1 like Hyperlid um from from your lens if it's whether it's a latency game a uh you know a specialization game, you know, what makes you feel so strongly that that clubs should be uh in

a specific infrastructure stack? Um and and and kind of what is your view on that more generally? Doug did a great job of setting the context, I think. And so, um there's a few I think north stars probably in designing and building like the optimal club, right? And one is that you want to minimize latency as much as possible because it's it's sort of like connects to Sana's original tagline of like consensus of the speed of light. Basically, you want the information to propagate and be updated as fast as possible so that like the prices are as fresh, right? And price discovery can happen efficiently and people um don't lose money because they can't actually

like update what their uh like their their their orders and things like that. So latency is a massive one and I see the trade-off there as being um kind of geographic distribution and decentralization like a a standard L1 like Salana or Ethereum or being a validator set that is colllocated like what Fogo is doing um or just at the very extreme end a single centralized sequencer and the the important thing is that someone's full node needs to be able to colllocate with whoever the person is that's sequencing the the current block uh so that they can get a confirmation that your order has been placed and and executed. Which is also another thing that gets lost in

in a lot of the the debates online is like it's not just about inclusion of your transaction but a guarantee that your order is not just included but it it is you you got to uh place your bid, right? Or you you got to hit that order and your trade is completed. So that's one that's one side of the spectrum. And I actually like tweeted a sort of like a graph of this earlier today when I was like thinking about and preparing for this this conversation. And then the other axis is application specific versus general purpose. Um and you have rollups that are general purpose like rise is is one that's building a more general purpose chain but that wants to have clobs as a primary use case. You have general purpose chains like Salana that want to

do everything that but but the point is they're not necessarily baking in these application specific rules that you would if you're trying to support CLOBs as a use case such as cancel order prioritizations. There's probably a lot of things that you can do with just custom sequencing rules. There's also a lot, you know, I've talked to Tristan at Bullet about the need to make uh placing orders and updating orders free, right? So like you shouldn't have to pay gas every time you want to place an order or cancel an order etc. Um but you you know you should be paying trading fees.

That's that's normal. So you can redesign the e the economics of the chain as well to be more uh suitable for like a trading experience. And so I think that those are the two axes here and I think you are right that I think Fogo and and like you know Doug and I are actually somewhat aligned in the sense that I think application specific is the winner. uh categorically and I think that geo colllocation and geo geographic centralization is also the winner in terms of latency. Um and then one interesting thing is like there are a few other things that I maybe I'll I'll open the debate up on beyond just those two axes where I feel like

roll-ups do have an advantage. One is that um roll-ups also gain an advantage of not having to rebuild all this sort of expensive challenging uh consensus infrastructure and having to manage a validator set and all those things. Uh so they can move faster and just focus on on the product. Um and so uh I think that's that's a material advantage that may make a difference in terms of like who can ship faster and and and win in this race. I think is it'll be like kind of an ongoing ongoing war. And then I'm also curious to maybe chat with Doug a little bit about like how much does the latency is there a difference between the latency you can get with a single sequencer and a colloccated set of

validators or or is that like the exact same at the end of the day because I that's something that I've been trying to reason about myself. Yeah, that's uh that's a great question. I think I think the uh the reality is is that there probably is a at least somewhat of an advantage for a single sequencer and and I think it's interesting like what is it like what are you actually thinking in what do we actually mean by uh by latency here um and so right like one thing one thing a validator can behave like is a validator can behave like like a single sequencer within within the block that uh that it's producing um right and it can single sequencer just right is giving

you kind of preconfirmations um and and there's Nothing I mean I I guess right like depends but it usually right there's nothing like fundamentally cryptoeconomic about about those confirmations. It's just kind of like the single sequencer will confirm your trades and then and then you kind of expect that you know if if they're an [ __ ] and then they bust your trades before they commit to the base layer. You know that's that's obviously going to hurt their reputation. It's bad for the chain and they're just not incentivized to do that. So so validator you can you can create economic or like you can have bonds. Yeah. You can have bonds. Yeah. Um but I think yeah I guess you you can have bonds. Um you do have to I I don't know actually Nick you probably know more about this but like if you do bonds right you do have to

produce like a a state route and I think like mega ether or some of the really low latency ones don't necessar like they kind of do something closer to shreds than than blocks. Um I was talking to Rise and they they did say according to Sam they actually do commit to this. Oh really? So they have Yeah. So their confirmation is like an execution guarantee that like your trade is executed, here's the updated state and then it would be flashable in case of that. Yeah, that makes sense. Um so right like you could you could do something similar with like a validator where uh a validator like gives you an execution guarantee and then and then commits some bond um and then it has it has uh you know some incentive to do that. uh you know the challenge is is

right like doing anything in validator space is right you have to wrangle a bunch of validators and get them to sign on versus versus one sequencer and kind of to your point right like that is a reason L2s can move a a little bit faster um but yeah like in terms of block production and like actually like uh confirm like confirming the block and through the network I think right there is going to be some latency just intrinsic in that now we think like in a single data center that's actually not huge um That's probably on the order of maybe another 10 milliseconds overhead.

Um, which you know is not it depends right depends what markets there are but like you know a lot of times the centralized exchanges uh they will have kind of spikes and latency that that are around there. So uh you know a lot of it depends I think obviously like 12 seconds on Ethereum or even 400 milliseconds uh that gives you a big opportunity for price discovery somewhere else. uh you know past a certain point in microsconds nanconds it becomes more a game about positional uh you know HFTs want to be as fast as nanconds not because uh stuff is necessarily happening that fast but just because they want to be faster than the other guy. So so a lot of it's also about kind of consistency and that's where kind of collocation is is interesting because if everyone's

colllocated at the same place we're all kind of on equal footing versus kind of a a geographically decentralized network. It's really tough, right? Like it depends who's located uh who's located where. So yeah, I'd say say on that point, yeah, there is some kind of a latency penalty for an L1, but I don't think it's really kind of uh you know, if you do collocation, it's not super material just because that kind of networking overhead isn't isn't a ton. So Doug, when you went to build Fogo, why did you not build it as a as a rollup?

Yeah, a couple a couple reasons. Um, one actually rolling up rolling up SVM is is is fairly fairly difficult. There is uh kind of this state route uh thing and you know the reality is is that we wanted really fast exe general purpose execution. We wanted that composability and like SVM just had a big advantage over EVM. Um the second reason is you know we don't necessarily think kind of the security guarantees you get from an L2 are super relevant um for like a a very trading centric uh very trading centric uh you know domain. So like right like traditionally like the security guarantees you get from an L2 is when things are committed uh right you're you're secured by you're secured

by the L1 but uh in between those commitments right you're you're just secured at at the L2 you're not inheriting L1 layer security and right censorship resistance something similar right you have force inclusion and and that stuff so kind of the problem is is when you're in kind of a very trading uh trading centric uh framework the latencies that you care about where where someone can kind of play names are are not super uh super relevant at like kind of the time frames that like force inclusion and commitment to state root happen. So like for example uh you know an L2 can still do something like censor censor an oracle update uh right to prevent itself from you know getting liquidated or make you get liquidated or or selectively send Oracle updates. Uh

the L2 security model doesn't doesn't necessarily give you anything to protect against that. So, right, it can't can steal your funds, but it can definitely kind of play games if especially if you're levered and and make you get liquidated. Uh, it can also do stuff like with a centralized sequencer, it can play games where it has certain participants or maybe its own market making desk uh, you know, it's taking packets from uh, someone that it's friendly with and and kind of has a faster path in the network from those packets and and that's hard to observe at at a single sequencer. uh kind of the nice part about an L1 is you do have rotation between validators and so everybody is kind of kind of running the same software can look at that at

the network. That's actually a huge reason hyperlquid I think is even though it's closed source and even though you know it's pretty permissioned uh compared to Binance or something nobody really knows there's there like a certain path where things are faster on Binance but but at least the hyperlquid program runs on separate machines and and people can kind of see that it's that it's auditable there. So I I think that's something to be said for an L1 or I guess even L2 model where where you're rotating uh the sequencer is there's some audibility and trust that just comes from kind of moving the sequencer from across different parties.

Understood. Now, kind of on on the contrary there, Nick, when you're looking at user experience for a a single sequencer model of a of a of a club, it's going to have extremely fast uh pre-confirmations, very very very short block times. When you're looking at a, you know, a L1 that has to run consensus uh around uh a set of distributed nodes, there's going to be a a a a slower UX. Now again our brains can only process I think it's like 200 milliseconds or 250 milliseconds at a time but with a colloccated u you know set of validators like in Fogo's model uh you kind of get away from that problem. The question that I'm trying to

kind of tee up here is is h how much does a UX improvement from a faster uh pre-MP faster block time on a single sequencer model how much do you think that's going to impact people's preferences when it comes to using a club? I.e. Will that be a massive uh decision maker for uh those people as to like where they want to trade or is it something else that matters to you from your perspective as to why that's a better model? Yeah, I I think Doug's making really good points and the again it kind of comes back to this trade-off of like censorship resistance slash sort of like decentralization of who can sequence blocks versus latency.

And I think um it is probably likely that a single sequencer is probably the pinnacle of how fast you can be on latency. But then you do make other trade-offs such as um a centralized sequencer can is so it's kind of trivial for it to censor things like he was mentioning in Oracle update or or what have you, right? So or give preferential treatment. It's like it's trivial because like but kind of what we're talking about is collusion. But the thing is it's not necessarily the case that just because you have a certain size of validator set that they can't also collude. the the more validators you have, the more more difficult it is to basically play those games essentially. So again, it's like a it's like a spectrum and it's not

necessarily black and white. And I think what it will come down to is like what does the market and what do traders care about and like how valuable are these different properties to them. Um, I tend to think that, you know, at least if if centralized exchanges are a a guide, uh, people don't seem to worry that like Binance is is like biasing or like censoring things, etc. Um, and if they were, then they they would move their funds. So I I feel like there is inherently a incentive alignment for the the operators of these um with with the users. Um and I so I think that that makes it much less

likely like the ROI of doing an attack of censorship or or favoritism is probably net negative at the end of the day. But again, you know, we'll we'll we'll we'll see. what what I think is most important is that roll-ups still preserve the uh really important quality which is like they're non-custodial. So as as long as you're posting to a robust DA layer and you have some kind of execution proofs uh any of the funds that are on the rollup are safe. uh like the the sequencer even if it's a single sequenceer can't you know steal your funds and I think that's a that's a very important difference between a centralized

exchange and and a decentralized exchange like the clouds that we're trying to build. Um, and so that's that's that's to me that's like the really really important one that you can't lose. The the censorship part of a single sequencer may or may not be as much of a problem and people might be willing to to to to accept those things for the advantage of of that incremental uh lower latency. But I, you know, it's something that we're going to have to see play out in the market, I think. Yeah, I'd say just a minor minor followup. Yeah, I I think like explicit censorship is pretty easy to detect and uh you would you would kind of right if someone was like just not pushing Oracle updates, it'd be it'd be pretty easy. My my biggest concern would be uh and you touched on this, but just kind of

favoring certain traders over others because that that would be pretty difficult to to check if you know I was adding a couple milliseconds to your path and uh shaving off a couple milliseconds from my friend's path. that that would be uh relatively hard to detect and the reality is like centralized exchanges I think at various points have been caught uh kind of with their h hands in the piggy bank there but yeah I I agree with you Nick uh this is this like like you said it's it's early innings in this and uh ultimately we can speculate as much as we want but market will see nobody can tell you for sure Doug one of the push backs for the kind of rollup model specifically the application specific rollup model has been interoperability and just kind of

these these applications living in these kind of silos, right, where you have to bridge and you have to have you have to deal with some headaches to get there. Obviously, when you build out something like Fogo, uh that that has other native applications and a very, you know, kind of uh all-in-one feel to it. Um you you avoid that. Um and you know, that comes with its own set of trade-offs as we've as we've been discussing. But Hyperlid has now kind of came out and it seems like completely smashed that that idea of well these kind of siloed in individual chains uh you know they won't be able to get a ton of liquidity or a ton of users because it's a headache it's a UX problem etc. How do you how do you reason about um that kind of

situation knowing that Hyperlid has done what it has in its own kind of silo? um you know why do why do you have to build a chain that that has a kind of suite of applications in instead of just focusing on one uh you know being the best place for a club? Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great question. So I I think right maybe in in terms of that hyperlquid is the the most successful probably crypto application of the past 10 years and in a vertical that is a huge huge demand and people will bridge over. I'm not sure if every single protocol uh people will bridge over uh you know I don't know if people necessarily bridge over for you know the third lending protocol out there or uh you know even

necessarily some launchpad. Uh so I I think right like to your point uh if it's a fantastic application people will bridge um if it's not you know if it's either not a killer application it's you know an application that's useful uh that certainly helps being on the same block space as other applications and and I think the other point is is that even the you know the perex itself if you're assuming that's that's the killer thing having general purpose block space attached to it is is actually super valuable. So like with hyperl liquid I think we kind of see hyper core plus the hyper EVM is like oneplus 1 is a lot more than two here and people are kind of valuing both because they're uh with each other and you know one problem is

block space is just so commoditized now that you know everyone's like well why is any other L1 valuable and hybrid EVM is obviously very valuable because attached to this liquidity and vice versa uh you know being able to build applications on top of that liquidity I think I think is a huge a huge advantage so I think we're just kind of early innings but there's a lot really interesting things being done on Hyper EVM itself. So, so it's it's kind of cool, right? Like it started as a application specific chain and now now it's kind of becoming general purpose which I think to a certain degree bears out kind of the importance of of kind of composability and and general general purpose block space.

Yeah, I'll jump in. I mean, yeah, I think I think composability is obviously the the killer one of the killer features of of building on chain, right? um that these applications can verify each other's state and compose. Um and but I I just don't think that atomic composability is the beall endall for every application. Um and I think it probably makes sense to have atomic composability with a club for certain key DeFi use cases. Like I've heard of like some really interesting ways of tapping into the liquidity on a on a club to like earn yield while your order is like sitting there, you know, um and things of that nature which I think are

very compelling and and great ideas that should be built. But does your club need to compose with, you know, all these NFTs or like some random game or all all the the whole universe of other use cases that just kind of are are irrelevant to a club or or maybe there might be some tie-in, but there's no reason why it needs to be atomic uh composability. It can be asynchronous. Then uh I think for that reason like when we're saying general per like attaching general purpose execution to let's say hyperlquid like I I'm doubtful that that's going to turn into whether there's really benefits of that composability for th that class of applications. And so I think um I don't know it's it's to be seen how um like

what kind of applications are going to benefit from that. Um, but I think there clearly will be. And I I'll also just say that I think I mean it's been a long time, but I think that the composability for rollups and and chains is is improving basically every few months. And we're close to real-time proving now for ZK EVMs. And um I think that that's going to start to unlock the ability for asynchronous composability to compete meaningfully with with atomic like synchronous composability. So um excited to see how that plays out.

That's that's that's fair. Yeah, that makes sense. I guess I I should have said synchronous composability or atomic composability to be fair. Definitely can compose between chain. So Doug on Fogo is do do the applications that are sequenced in with some sort of like uh colloccated set of validators versus the ones that use global validators are those inherently composable or is it just like a backup? Yeah, the the entire the the entire chain is sequenced uh with with colloccated validators. So we produce uh you know we the there it's a general purpose SVM environment including the clo itself is uh just lives in it's just standard Salana program. it's privileged in terms of sequencing but uh in terms of invoking the program is same as any other Salana program uh the there there when I

mentioned global consensus that's really just a fallback uh situation if for example the data center goes down then Fogo can always fall back to to global consensus and everything would run there um but you know obviously that wouldn't be ideal and we hope data centers don't go down uh so yeah everything's running same place um and and I think right like to maybe the the point there is like it is somewhat the trade-off you make like there and and something Solana has seen is when you put everything on the same block space in the same chain right congestion is is definitely a challenge right when someone's spamming some NFT mint uh you know yeah that hurts uh you know that hurts the club and and we we've tried to be pretty thoughtful about making sure that block space is

pre-allocated and stuff but uh you know definitely judge us judge us on our results instead of instead of what we say I I actually forgot to mention something that that I want to add. I don't know if people saw this, but I think last week or or maybe a week week before that. Um the Flashbots team released this uh analysis of at least base block space and um they were just kind of showing how uh MEV is like like just or just like these economic kinds of like like trading based applications generate like a lot of spam basically and that drives up the it degrades the performance and the like the gas fees and the user experience for like every other app on that chain And um by if if you separate

the trading from the other applications you can mitigate that significantly. Um so the gas fees over here can stay relatively low and reasonable and all the spam gets kind of isolated to this execution layer and again that's like always been the superpower of rollups is like this parallel parallelization of execution. And so I think that that's a that's a really important um advantage. another reason why you wouldn't want not only can NFT mess up the trading, but the trading just as a baseline raises the fees for everything else. Um, and so it makes sense to me to to want to split those things out.

That's interesting. It's actually a bunch of sub penny I I realized this the other day or learned this the other day. It's really you spam a bunch of wallets just to just get your meme coin at the top of deck screener because that's what many wallets. Is that actually what's going on? Yeah, that's that's hilarious. Oh my god, that raises a good point though with regards to specialization. Doug, I'm I'm curious like how important in your thought process has been these, you know, different We got one more thing here. We're gonna get Doug right back up. I'm curious just from Doug's perspective here in a sec about Oh, he's back. Um, Doug, when

you're thinking about specialization for uh, ambient or Fogo, like how important has this idea of um, you know, different like custom ordering rules um, you know, things that are in line with like application specific sequencing per se? You know, how important is that for a club? and and and and how are you guys going to be able to effectively like compete with with one who has who has that enabled on their own application specific chain um with with these rules that are meant for a specific you know DeFi app like like a club. What's your thoughts there and like how will you try to uh you know be able to compete? Yeah.

Yeah, that's a that's a great question. So I mean the reality is like we're so we're general purpose in terms of the execution environment but we're actually pretty opinionated about sequencing. So we think right like the transactions can just look like Salana transactions but in terms of the sequencing itself. Um you know Oracle updates are prioritized at the top of the block and and block space is reserved for them. And you know, this is why Fogo works so closely with with PIF and and the team there is because having that little agency Oracle uh is is super important and and similar like critical updates to the order book um are just right to the baked. Yeah. So top of the the there's certain amount of block space that's always pre-reserved for these applications and they happen

at the top of the block and you know they look like Salana transactions but to to be honest right like so we're an app chain in terms of sequencing and a general purpose chain in terms of in terms of execution um I I think it's there are some interesting ideas about how you can do application specific sequencing within like a general purpose chain and I know like you know Max at at Salana has kind of written about kind of multicurren composers and stuff. But, uh, you know, I I think that stuff is still way deep in in research territory. And, you know, maybe down the line we'll look at it for FOGO, but for someone who wants to get up soon, I I just think that stuff's not ready for prime time.

There's also something about um, just to touch on the multiple concurrent proposers or multiple concurrent leaders. Um, I think they they had to rebrand because MCP got uh, squatted by AI. Um but anyway um an MCL what's interesting is like you can get faster inclusion guarantees because you can colllocate like no matter where you are it's likely that there's a leader that's close to you and so like whenever I'm talking about the trade-off latency trade-offs with Tuli and other people in the Salonic camp that's what they're always referring to it's like oh well one of the leaders is going to linearize it and a shred and now you have an inclusion guarantee but the important thing is that that's very different than an execution ution

guarantee and you don't know that could be someone else who also placed an order uh with another leader that gave them the confirmation that you're both trying to take the same uh trade and so you don't actually know if your trade went through until the global consensus everything gets like globally ordered and and reconciled and so um the interesting thing is like on the surface it seems like MCL gives you this better latency property but actually when in terms of what I think traders actually want on a It's actually worse because the like a single leader could actually give you uh that that like guarantee of like it's executed not just included. So I don't know trade-off. I wonder if MCP is going

to lose. Go ahead. Sorry. No, I say I'm really glad you brought that up and that was a big thing with like pre-confirmations on like the like people would always this slight of hand like we have this is inclusion latency and it's almost worthless from a club perspective. Great. My my your order arrives, but is it filled? Is it not filled? Like, okay, it's g something's going to happen to it, but like what? I don't know. Okay. Yeah. We can we can guarantee it will either miss or we'll it will fill. All right. Thanks. It's worth a lot.

Uh, we had a wrap here in about a minute or two. Um just just want to give like uh closing thoughts with regards to um you know kind of understanding the trade-off uh perspective and maybe just looking ahead as to where we think uh this entire space of of clubs could go uh in the future. Um and and and kind of just like why you feel strongly about this this specific application for crypto. And I mean from my perspective it's all about onchain price discovery. It's all about kind of shifting the idea of of building new assets and having those be discovered on on exchanges with ex exorbitant fees, market make agreements, all these different things, bringing bringing price discovery

onchain. Uh aligning that with with the ethos and and doing it at scale. Uh and so yeah, guys, thanks thanks for joining. I just want to give you a sec to close out here, Doug, and then and then Nick. Yeah. Yeah, I'd uh I'd pretty much echo that. I think uh you know obviously this is kind of the final frontier of of getting tready markets uh fully fully cryptoized. Um I'd also say right like the interesting thing about clubs are they're kind of the most competitive gamified kind of the most uh sharkish type players there are in any financial market. There's obviously very smart people who spend their life trying to figure out how to get gain very tiny edges. So I I think right if you can get

blockchains working for this application and working really well that's that's kind of conquers uh a lot of other problems even even outside clubs. Yeah this has been a fun debate. Um you know I tweeted like over a year ago I think that trading has always been the killer use case of crypto one of the first ones but the problem is it's all happening on centralized venues. And so uh it's kind of and and you know FTX would never have happened if it was an onchain non-custodial DEX, right? So um we need to we need to win this use case. We need to bring at least crypto trading on chain and hopefully in the future like all of finance uh all of trading on chain and like clubs are the first uh

you know the applications like hyperlquid are the first like hint of the fact that like we can actually do this and I'm just extremely bullish that over the coming few years like we're going to make this happen and continue to make leaps and bounds. I personally think that uh roll-ups have a very good chance of of being a leading architecture here and this is what Celestia has been building for since the beginning. You know, people have been making fun of Celestia for wanting to have gigabyte blocks and huge amounts of throughput, but then you look at it with Hyperlid, they're they're doing massive massive amounts of throughput. And again, their their trading volumes are very small compared to centralized exchanges or even trady. So, we can already see on the horizon the demand for extreme amount of block space. we're trying to build for that future and um

that's that's just really exciting and while why we're all here and I think that's just the beginning of broader crypto adoption from here and um this just happens to be the first use case that's breaking out. So clubs on blobs. Thanks Doug. I appreciate you guys coming out tuning in and thanks for everybody who's been here. First debate on the TV had a little bit of had a little bit of hiccups getting in but we made it work. Thank you guys and uh see you both soon. Awesome. Thanks Andy. Later informative. That was fun. Um sometimes it's uh sometimes you want to get the people, you know, a bit more a bit more yelling and at each other, but you know,

I think Doug's very very uh deep in the weeds as far as building ambient and and uh and Fogo. And then uh kind of Nick takes a very diplomatic uh approach all the time as well. So guys, we got one last speaker here today. We got Shawn joining us, uh Sean Lee. Prior to that, we're we're we're going to cover Hackin. Um Hackin got unfortunately uh they've been hacked in some capacity. Uh I don't exactly know how it happened or what happened. Um but the token went down quite a bit. I think they actually just recently put out a post today saying that um it it was not it was an infrastructural uh problem on the upgrade. So looking looking understand a

bit better as to what happened there from from the team. But it's just been crazy to see a couple of these happen over the last six weeks, right? You had uh layer and then you had uh a couple others just kind of go down. So um hopefully everybody stayed safe from this. just wanted to kind of share this here and again just it's a quick reminder for for OPSEC and just to understand that that you know it is a bit of a minefield out there in the space. So um yeah guys we're going to get Sean Lee up here and uh get ready to go.

All righty. Last one of the day, guys. and we'll get going uh with Sean. We're going to talk about uh what they're doing at Magic. Um Sean and Magic have been good friends with the rollup for for several months now. We're actually hosting our second event with the team uh and Shifi this Thursday in Manhattan. So, that should be fun.

Um, and yeah, guys, we're going to talk about uh AI, what they've done with Newton. Uh, they've just announced the the token launch from the Newton Foundation as well. Um, so more to come there. Uh, we're going to talk about AutoFi, uh, what they are doing with Kaido. Um, and and actually Sean just put out a really a really interesting post on X about the prelude to Newton. Um, is a pretty insane story about how he founded magic and kind of everything that happened. Um, so I'm gonna ask him about that. I actually read it through and through and thought it was thought it was pretty pretty enlightening and pretty interesting. So, um, yeah guys, let's get him up here in a

sec on the back end and we'll get started. Last one of the day. Got some meetings tonight in the city. There's a lot of people in the city now. Uh, so excited to just take those down one by one. Um, otherwise we got what's what's the market doing? I think BTC is looking pretty good. um h have a had a really really rough weekend, but you know, we don't zoom in too hard. We just we just hang out, zoom out, look at the long term, see what's going on. So, all right guys, let's get Sean up here in the back. I think he's just getting set up on his end. Um and yeah, that I thought the debate for the clouds, it's funny. I thought that they were going to be more

uh you know uh batting heads, but it seems that the way that Fogo is set up in a way is that like well it's actually almost closer to a a general purpose rollup design with some hints of like uh execution specific optionality than we you know then that then the debate had you know potentially been uh promoted as or seen as. So I as soon as I heard about the collocation about how kind of Doug was thinking about it I was like okay we're actually probably far closer to where we're going to end up in terms of the design as a whole. Anyhow, like I I do think that some form of colloccated validators

or a single sequencer colloccated based on a time frame throughout um like effectively in in Eastern time you have a certain time frame and when it's European hours you have a certain time frame when it's Asian hours you have and you have the actual validators collocated in that region or the sequencer collocated in that region. I think that's interesting. I think they that Doug has a good point about the interrupt thing where yeah, of course, Hyperlid got a ton of traction because everybody wanted to bridge there. It's like one of the most prominent successful apps. That's not going to be the case for all the apps. It's not going to be the case for for everybody uh building. So, I think that was a good point. I think the latency point is is an interesting one. Again, having the

actual definition of latency. The question is is like is will users really care if if the if the um latency is slightly different between uh you know a couple hundred milliseconds 10 milliseconds like I think ultimately the answer is is yes or no they might but the answer is more important is for the market makers as Doug was saying like if you if you have some sort of preferential treatment with a single sequencer then you get into a setup where you know your friend could get a better fill you know, just with 10 10 milliseconds, 20 milliseconds rather than somebody else. So, you know, I think that's more of the question than it is for like the actual enduser experience. Um, and I think that like

these clubs are optimizing and these teams that are building are optimizing a lot more for those types of experiences rather than uh or those types of of traders and users rather than just like, you know, like the average kind of trader. Um, so guys, I think we're we're going to get ma uh Sean up here from Magic. I think he's nearly set up. Uh, we got quite a bit to go over. As we said, these these guys are pioneering along the crypto AI space. So, looking forward to chatting with Sean, getting him up here in the back end and having the last uh the last uh call of the day.

So, let's get him in and let's get started. Sean, what's up, man? Hey, good to see you. Hey. Hey, Andy. Good to see you, too. Where you where you calling from? It looks like you're in a hotel. Uh, I am in New York now. Uh, I just flew back from South Korea. Oh, wow. How was how was the trip? Oh, it was wild. It feels like a cool place over there, right? I I love the food and the people there. Yeah. Yeah. I remember I went to a Korean barbecue there and I was like, "Wow, this is like the most authentic Korean barbecue possible."

the best. Yeah, man. It's been a busy couple weeks for you. Um, travel, all of that. Uh, obviously token announced, etc. Um, you you put out a post recently about the prelude to Newton and when we did that previous pod, we we discussed and uh talked about your your exit to Docker and just kind of the things that you did prior to Newton. Um, but you know, through this journey, you know, you've been you've been on this ride for now six or seven years. Um, and you've been hinting at something big coming up with regards to Newton. I'm curious like as you're writing this article, what is that future that you envision with Newton and and you know kind of how does AI fit into that picture?

Yeah. Yeah. I was uh you know I was one day feeling pretty emotional about the journey was like over seven years and so I like really want to write it out and yeah prelude to Newton it's exactly that to show that um it's the beginning of something much larger um and I always like to compare to the beginning of um like Ethereum you know when I first got into the space uh when I first got to know smart contracts beyond just cryptocurrencies um you know as primitive for programmable money, right? That can be programmed and composed into different kind of applications. But, you know, as we enter an AI native era, uh we actually need a new primitive because AI

cannot be fully put on chain, right? So, um you know, these will be agent that can act on your behalf like intelligently but bound by your intent and their actions are provably correct. So um I'm thinking like bridging off-chain automation while AI agents onchain similar to how like chain link bridge offchain data on chain right so so this sets us up for um the foundation for self-driving capital right as a user you can set goal goals by things rebalance earn yields and have your agents execute um securely uh where AI brings in the intelligence uh But Newton

brings the trust, right? So there's no like blind trust, no middleman and fully enabling AI to act on your behalf within the guard rails. Um so um and uh yeah uh what people have been experiencing with Newton is just the tip of the iceberg. People were like, "Oh, it's just DCA agent." You're like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's Yeah, it's a big deal, right? It's an end to end verifiable agent from logging in easily creating that smart wallet to talking to the smart session. Yeah. To hooking up the permissions to executing and then verifying. So it's like there's so much underneath. So I tried to help people

see it and like look into the light paper more. But um as Newton continue to grow, we're obviously building more agent capabilities. Yeah. But also the same time uh this automation marketplace so that thirdparty developers other than magic can plug in their own agents as well which opens up just an infinite amount of uh capabilities in the future. So why do you think this is the right time to build Newton then in this lens of this crypto AI intersection? Why is why is now the time? Yeah. So, um we've spent the last seven years on the front lines um for like on boarding and and trust. You know, we work with Fortune

500 companies, supported large scale apps like Poly Market, especially through the election night. Um you know, hundreds, thousands of devs, millions of developers. So, yeah, this this experience really sharpened our understanding um uh of like real barriers, right? not just usability but also trust, transparency and security. And I feel like this is for the past seven years, this is the first time where I feel like everything is aligning right you know on the regulatory front we're seeing real progress through the Genius Act shifting towards better uh clear regulation for stable coins. On the technical side, u we're seeing primitives that were

theoretical starting to be more practical. You know, now we have more capable and democratized or even like open source LLMs, confidential computing like TES, smart accounts with 7702, chain abstraction, uh zero knowledge proofs, all of this technology that constitutes this this verifiable automation experience is not ready to be used. So um I I believe yeah the foundation is set uh and the trust stack is here um and all the use cases that right that we're we're we're dream we have dreamed of is actually ready to go right so um we just have to kind of put this technology together and and ship it. So um so yeah this some sort of

perfect moment. Yeah, man. I was actually speaking with um with uh Brian who runs Chorus One's uh you know the their staking stuff and their validator stuff. Uh he's been the founder there for a while and we were speaking about their latest investments in crypto and AI and the biggest thing that he mentioned was this like when you type into the lang like a natural language model what you want them to do. He was expressing that there was this need for uh one security to have some sort of like privacy as well as understanding as to like what's happening after this um after you know a command or prompt was given. And then the other thing was was was like this verifiability aspect,

right, of like how how can you know and trust that you're going to give a this command to some sort of agent and it's going to securely and and and trustworthy go and act on your behalf in the way that you want it to do. Uh and so I just think this problem is just going to continuously like it's something that like some some of the smartest investors in in the space are concerned with and are thinking about. Yeah. Yeah. because a lot of the the prompt um agent security is through prompts, right? There actually should be primitives for that. Yeah. So, okay. So, you actually put out a poll I think a little bit ago uh about DeFi AI or Deaf AI or AutoFi and and uh it seems that you guys have now at Magic coined this

term autofy. So it's your vision for this autonomous finance which which I think is uh is um you know it it resonates more than DF DF AI it's even hard to say it right um could you expand on this idea like for me I hear this and I think about like this some sort of automated assistant almost right like that's how I think about AI right I think about like from a lazy man's perspective okay I want things that you know things to be handled for me in an automated fashion maybe you can just walk walk us through what your uh autofy vision is and kind of what that means.

Yeah. So um the reason I like autofy more than def AI is that it not only captures crypto and web 3 but also web two and defi is like very web three term right so I want this to be bigger because um autonomous finance is sort of the fintech holy grail right not just for crypto but everything and actually autofi is only possible right at the intersection of crypto and AI you know for for the first time uh we can truly enable autonomous capital right with programmable money that can move itself intelligently governed by programmable rules and verifiable AI agents. So um yeah it's not just about automation but

trust as well right whereas this just wasn't possible in like traditional system where you have to trust like middleman and like institutions that's sort of in the middle um and um uh whereas uh the adoption of autofy I think is also going to be further accelerated um with now with like stable coin adoption which gives us price stable building blocks for easy entry right from the users perspective, but also tokenized real world assets um is going to be able to expand beyond just crypto asset class that can be automated which will be like which will open so much more use cases um than just like crypto assets, right? So um so yeah,

this lets us um do verifiable automation across asset classes, you know, with the type of precision that comes with web 3 technology. So imagine you can do like rebalancing of your portfolio and finding yields not only in crypto assets but but also with RWA um in in other asset class as well. Yeah man, I mean I think that that uh trend is only going to accelerate from the types of assets on chain. I mean it's clearly already happening and and I think that um I also said earlier in in a conversation that I think like my current interpretation of like chain abstraction is actually just interacting with a natural language model uh from

the user perspective and and going from there and working in that lens. Um, it's actually no, it's no longer like this like shared like, you know, chain. No, no, no. It's just like I want to interact on chain by going and using a LLM model, typing in a a command or a wish, per se, and then having that be executed. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, all right. So, you've you've referred to your community as co-architects of what comes next, which is quite quite a line. Um how will user contributions especially in this like decentralized compute or inference or even modeling training data etc. How will users be able to contribute uh and reshape the marketplace of intelligent

automation? Yeah. Now, now that we're helping build Newton protocol, right? Um that is, you know, when I build a protocol, I want to take the mentality that the community are also owners, right? Um and so co-architect um could mean a lot of things, right? Uh every bit of feedback helps shape the the product. I think since we've been building in public with Newton, we're just getting so much valuable feedback in out there in the public and then when we deliver something, they really feel the community really feel like they're part owner in this and they're influencing change as well. So, I really like that aspect of community building.

You know, it's not just about like, oh, like yapping or whatever, right? But it's also about like ownership um in what's to come and and and be part of the movement. So um yeah, I want to continue to build in public and actively engage with the community and then as we start to roll out the marketplace um you know we we are already getting a lot of feedback on great use cases and like agents that we can build, what kind of assets we should we should add. So um you know we've been taking notes and like prioritizing um internally. So um yeah I think it's going to get even more fun with the community uh as we

roll out these dev tools and developers can get started as well. Yeah, I think I think that's one of the more important aspects of um of building a protocol nowadays like with the abundance of of tokens of projects of ideas like there is going to be a large emphasis on differentiating via community like having a large real uh sustainable idea that because PE people want to believe in something and like feel like they're a part of something that's like the big idea behind community, right? And so I think if you can if you can like create this intangible um feeling or uh group then that goes a that goes much further in building like

long-term ravenous supporters than just kind of uh you know people that are are in it for the for the money or even people that are just in it because it's cool technology. A lot of the best technology uh companies in the space also struggle with building this kind of like movement around why this you know why this technology exists. Right. Right. And and and the sort of experience that we're building actually allows this right like imagine a regular wallet experience. Um when you add what the community wants the UI will explode right there's more complexity but in like a aentic user experience all of that is just one prompt right? So, so this way we can give people what they want uh at a super wide range of

diversity. Um, so it it feels like the community and us are like baking this cake together. So, one one question for you about this kind of trust idea and and kind of how you're seeing this evolve. When I first started using LLMs, I was like pretty pretty like uh reserve per se and like what I was willing to share with Claude or Chachi or Gemini. But I feel like as over the last like three to six months, as I've started to use them much more, I've been more willing to like uh provide PDFs or files or this or that or information, written text, voice, like my level of like of usage has has grown more and more like tied to like my identity per se and like

who I am. And you know, there's like a lot of like data going into that, but it's still it's still kind of like problematic from the perspective of of like there's just a lot of reasons as to why. From from from your perspective, that's not even managing finances, though. That's just like managing information and like being able to have like, you know, insight into email responses or uh text responses or outlines, PDFs, formats, pitch text, etc. When it comes to finances, it's a it's a different story. Um, you know, I'm curious how soon you think mainstream people will trust AI to manage their finances from all the way from, you know, wanting to DCA a token

to selling to uh what what type of assets to uh, you know, transfer into, you know, what what's that going to look like and how far off are are we from that? I I think you know that's why Newton wants to trailblaze this movement right there needs to be like serious effort behind this and it's already um becoming a a predominant narrative in web two around like agentic commerce and I think that is something that people are willing to experiment first yes um whereas crypto is more ahead right than web two where we are more experimental like more things that we're willing to try So it's like kind of like a chaos monkey for like financial applications,

right? Um so I think that's uh that's really great. It's like this fertile ground for innovation. Um but just at this pace um we're we're seeing probably one to two years, right? It's is my guess. Um I'm usually pretty optimistic. I don't know. But um definitely on the Newton side um one thing that we uh have identified as a blocker is the trust and security right around this which is why we're very focused on solving this problem with the Newton protocol. Um and you know I believe to make AI truly useful in finance you actually need to give it a level of autonomy right um but it needs to be like carefully scoped

because if you give like too little freedom they're ineffective but too much like hallucination errors and it causes damage right so um and even if you look at like web two today many of the automation uh still require human in the middle right it's not fully autonomous um and and this will be really important for financial use case as well. So um that's where the sort of neuron knowledge permission that's unchained um is really going to be uh revolutionary here right so uh it lets users define the boundaries for the agents you know it goes from things that's as simple as spending limits approved token or protocols to um you know conditional

triggers like volatility thresholds or price movements so um I think that part is really really important and I think in some ways it may be easier to define in crypto than like web two because web two API is like everywhere right so um and not very consistent whereas EVM has like very consistent interface so you could actually do that um in web 3 and I believe this is one of the key hurdles to that mainstream adoption yeah yeah I think that in the mainstream agents have now become much more of a common term term and like like you know you see Salesforce's commercials on TV and that they're pushing agents hard. I think I

think that's now something that that people have wrapped their head around and so now it does feel like the next step is going to be you know you utilizing them across their financial life and just kind of what that what that could entail. Last one for you outside outside of um that specific use case. What type of agentic commerce um do you think will be the the most ripe for disruption of you know current incumbents or uh you or you know use cases companies uh over the next like five to 10 years like where where do you see the most AI influence in business and in commerce? Yeah, I think I think agent commerce is an inevitability. And one example I like to give is think

about how you shop today, right? In web two is maybe you go on Google, some other storefront online, you search something and then you go through the catalog and then you go through the conversion flows. Maybe you convert, maybe you don't, right? Um but in like a agent commerce future that friction from user intent to final purchase is just going to be an instant right so this is going to be like massive right for conversion uh for single items but also with automation you can imagine like doing this for bulk purchases like uh recently uh I set up a PC I want all these uh equipments components I could just order all them

like that right uh in one go or um purchasing with some kind of coordination let's say with a executive assistant like booking of weekend trip right you can pay using stable coins y um so so I think yeah like we may start to see some of these happen or or even like automated like subscriptions management if you don't really use it it helps you save money would be I would I would definitely use that son I I hope you guys have a great week I I I know it's going to be a busy one with the uh Nuke token and with permissionless and everything in between. Uh appreciate you you joining.

Looking forward to seeing you uh maybe at the dinner or at the happy hour. Well, of course at the happy hour. Maybe at the dinner. Um and yeah, man. I appreciate you. Thanks. Thanks for coming on. Likewise. Thanks for the invite and thank uh great to be here. See you soon, buddy. See you soon. Bye. All righty, guys. That wraps us up for the day. um looking forward to seeing what uh the Newton token does on launch this week. They've been they've been working hard for like what six, seven years embedded wallets into now uh this this kind of crypto AI intersection and have yeah one of the more passionate and stronger communities that I've seen uh in the space in some time. That was a a really really fun stream. Again, I'm

looking forward to having Rob back on. Uh there's some moments there in between in between guests and and topics where I'm just, you know, it'd be nice to chat with Rob and just get some thoughts, get his feedback. I think he'll be back as of this week, like I said, at Permissionless. We will be live Wednesday and Thursday this week at Permissionless. Excited to to be there today. Keep it on what we have here. Uh as always guys, thanks for being a part of the rollup. Um and yeah, we'll see you guys on Wednesday live from Brooklyn. Thanks guys.