Rollup TV: Klyra, Chaos Labs, Recall, Framework Ventures

Transcript

Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat. Heat.

Hey, [Music] heat. Hey. [Music] Heat. Heat.

Hey, hey, hey. [Music] GM. Oh, GM indeed. We had a bit of a whirlwind weekend, didn't we, Andy?

I mean, yeah. Yeah, the market took a whirlwind, that's for sure. Uh, Friday night it was like, "We're going to zero." And then Saturday evening was like, "Oh, we're straight." Sunday morning was like, "Oh, wow. Are we really going to go to alltime highs?" Like, it was the most bipolar weekend in crypto I've ever seen. Like, bro, cuz usually you get so much pain. Like, when those dumps happen, they usually last for like, you know, several days. Like, we usually getting like are in the dumps of hell for like weeks on end. Um, and and I feel like I feel like we we just kind of got out of that, which is nice.

>> Pretty nutty. Um, there was several things obviously that factored into why uh the situation unfolded like it did. Um, we're going to get into all of those. We've got quite a few market commentators that are going to come on the stream today uh that are going to give us some more perspective. Uh there was again quite a few quite a few factors that we could look into. Um our first guest today, Dio Diogenius, uh sounds like a Greek uh philosopher. Uh he had a great recap about what happened over the weekend called uh Black Friday.

What happened? Uh he's going to be our first guest coming on in just a few minutes. Uh so we're going to hear from him. Generally, I mean, open interest got cut in half. There's things um about like what happened on Binance, why did Binance uh open interest uh be why was it a little bit more substantial and stable than things that happened on Hyperlid? I'm hearing that this is more of a technical crash than it was a fundamental one and that's why we're recovering so nicely. Generally, I think obviously this this is going to have repercussions and ripple effects uh throughout markets for the upcoming weeks to months to if not years. biggest liquidation in crypto history, upwards

of 20 billion in liquidations. We're hearing that market making uh firms got completely wiped out. Stay tuned for rumor mill. But ultimately, I think there are some takeaways from here that we're generally going it it almost feels like the technology reacted better to some of these cataclysmic movements than it has in previous uh market crashes. Um, Hyperlid stayed online the entire time. Uh, we did have some outages. There wasn't, you know, we'll get into the USDE Athena kind of shakeup, but there wasn't any major oracle mishaps for the most part. These things stayed online and they worked as they're

intended. Users may not like that. Users may have gotten liquidated and they're not too favorable when it comes to that, but in general, these systems worked as they're intended. and uh and there was there were some things that were exposed and I think that ultimately is a learning experience and it presents an opportunity for improvement. So, we're going to get into all of that and more coming right up. Andy, are you there? Do we have you? Leveraging was a pretty >> pretty interesting interesting setup here. People didn't really real like there was like some tweets like the gang learns about auto deleveraging.

>> Yeah. >> Like it's like what happened there? So yeah, I think we got Dioenesis up first. Um he is the founder of some of a company called Clara. I think I I believe that that that they're doing per uh type of work basically. Um I don't know if exactly it's per platform um or exactly what the what the product is, but yeah. I mean, I saw him this weekend on Laura Shin talking about uh what happened and so yeah, I think we we just want to kind of get uh his take on that. That rumor mill tweet that I had freaking block was hot.

Um I mean that thing's at like that thing's at like 300,000 views. um tweet was basically uh >> are you are you going to give us the rumor market large trading firms? My DMs are flooded right now. Uh rumor mill currently saying two large trading firms were liquidated to zero. Hearing different takes, but the idea is that they owned a book of top 100 market cap tokens which were collateralized against each other in size up to a billion dollars. Now, it's not like they had a billion dollars of like actual spot value, but it's like maybe they had a couple hundred million spot value >> and then they were levered up, you know, to two, three, four, five times

>> and became forced market sellers of their entire book. There's one thing in crypto you don't ever want to be is a forced seller. I don't mean I mean in in all markets you really don't want to be a force seller ever, but in crypto specifically, the last thing you want to be is a force seller. So, you know, I think uh I think that's kind of what we are trying to avoid in this market. Um, and >> we've seen time and time again the winners just survive. And one of my favorite tweet, I mean, Twitter was absolutely firing over the weekend. It was it was just full of emotional responses. It was just so I saw one tweet, this is the most spirited crypto Twitter has been since 2022. Feel like that's accurate. Generally, we saw

people that were euphoric. We saw people that bears were celebrating, bulls were crying, people got liquidated, >> and the memes were hilarious. One of my favorite ones was uh only the divinely protected and the multicycle survivor cockroaches are still around. So, from one multi cycle surviving cockroach to another, it's good to see you still here. And uh and I'm glad that we we made it through. I mean, dude, soul's back above 200 right now. Just popped up to 2011. ETH sitting at 4170. I mean, bro, I saw Ben Cohen was just calling for ETH to go straight to 5K now. Like, that guy's been so dialed, bro. He was call like I would be watching Ben's

videos and I'd be like and this is the thing that Ben is like getting a a meme for is like I'd be watching his content and being like I hope like what he said was going to happen was so spot-on technically and like for from like a logical reasoning perspective but like nobody wanted to hear it cuz why it was just like Bitcoin dominance is going to go up. Your alts are about to get crushed and then we can go higher on across the market. Bitcoin needs to lead the market. But I actually think that ETH is going to lead the market here now uh to new highs. You know, I think ETH Bitcoin is probably more or less bottomed out. I mean, some of these things took >> Let me push Let me push back on that though. Why why ETH when we've had most

of the Ethereum debt buying behind us? >> Well, just because ETH has been sufficiently destroyed and has not even hit a alltime high yet this cycle. Okay. >> Like I think it's going to have its moment now, bro. the the the plasma XPL weekly started at $159 or 54 and just closed at 44 cents. >> Dude, to everyone that was hedging their venture bags on on per >> you probably got auto deleveraged cooked >> probably got auto delevered which is which is wild. I mean, >> HIPP3 came out today for Hyperlquid as well, >> right, dude. Tons of action all across the

>> I think all the other perexes are kind of are like they kind of got um like I think in the market's eyes, I think everything but Hyperlid kind of took a a step down in terms of their uh perception in the market. weird because the the the per exchanges the technology itself worked as intended on hyperlquid the best. It was the only exchange that remained solvent and did not have downtime. Yeah, >> Lighter had downtime. Binance had downtime. I think Aster had downtime.

>> Yeah. >> But as a result of of not having downtime, they liquidated more people. And so the people are pissed that there was not downtime because they got ADL. there was liquid the liquidation engine continued to run because there was not downtime. Yeah. So on lighter and Binance they're posting these post-mortems about why there was operational downtime and how they're going to recompensate users. >> But in >> in in Hyperlid those those users just got liquidated. They're not getting compensated. So the users are pissed >> if you're if you're uh if you're not essentially taking advantage of the system as it was supposed to happen.

>> Yeah, I know. I mean, yeah. All right. Well, we're gonna get uh Diego, we're gonna get Diego up. Um and we're going to hear his takes. He had a banger thread. Um he's going to recap it for us. Um and we're going to figure out what the hell happened. And I feel like today's stream is pretty much just going to be I mean, we've got Diego about kind of like the like the bigger picture. We've got uh Omar from Chaos Labs about kind of like the Oracle situation >> and in particular the lending market situation particularly on A Chaos Labs the risk manager for a >> um and and one thing that I realized once you know uh Omar kind of reached out to us talking about coming on the

show and talking about some of these oracle situations. I realized and this is something I I had thought about a while ago but just again remembered perexes are basically lending markets. >> Yeah. >> These are effectively the same system. >> Yeah. >> Just way more leverage but there's not actual spot assets being traded when you do per. That's the key difference. >> It's just trading paper contracts. >> Paper contracts and just deposits that are just being shuffled around. Lenders and borrow and and borrowers. That's it. That's what makes up these lending markets like a that's what makes up these per exchanges like Hyperlquid and Lighter.

>> So I think we'll get a bit more detail from Diego about generally kind of the leadup and and maybe some more about auto deleveraging and what we're seeing across the broad swap of the market. But then I really want to talk to Omar about particularly this dynamic about it's all lending markets per lending markets are effectively the same thing and we're just re we're just shuffling deposits between users and how can we do that the most effectively and the most efficiently. >> Yeah. >> Look a had no issues. >> Nope.

>> No issues. And so you can start to see the systems that are really scaled and built to sustain these sorts of market movements in this in the at the scale on the order of magnitude of billions if not trillions once we're moving more and more of the of finance onchain. And I feel like per exchanges hyperlquid performed the best but it was still just like 90%. A I want to say 99% if not 100% no issues. >> Yep. Yep. It's funny. CMS or uh Vance just tweeted, "Are you guys still fading Ben Cohen?" And then uh CMS just tweeted, "Just remembered a ton of these levered

perpet traders are probably the same guys in Puerto Rico, like on people for being in Puerto Rico. Like you just went all the way to Puerto Rico, changed your whole lifestyle, avoid taxes, and now you're wrecked." >> Bro, that's the other thing is that one dude committed suicide, which is absolutely tragic. that Ukrainian influencer. >> Yeah, >> it was that was really sad. I mean, people lost their shirt. I mean, I put out that tweet and then I got tons of DMs from people um who just lost their shirt.

>> Again, just you want to be a cockroach. You just want to survive. You don't want to have to And now, I mean, people are going to we're going to see all kinds of volatility from people trying to make it all back. >> Yeah, of course. I mean, people are already piling into like I think I saw some like thesis piece on SPX 6900 as to why like that's going to be what you know like people are calling for a return to nihilism and memes basically right now. >> Yeah, cuz like this revenue meta thing went too far and um yeah, like uh you know, per just got smoked. I'm going to start uh farming per sexes today. uh I didn't do it for so long, but now that

OI got washed and people are probably going to move on from it, I still think it's probably the best opportunity for uh any sort of like airdrop or like kind of like future basically just like very small delta neutral trading like very light. Um but like I think because everyone got washed out in like OI then I think that you know I think that there's a much better opportunity. So yeah. All right, guys. We're we're we're gonna get uh Dioenesis Gene Cassadus up on on on the show here. Um and we're gonna get started. He he he wrote a great thread about what happened um pretty quickly. It's like one of the better ones. Um obviously he was with Laura yesterday, I think, or Saturday.

So I was stoked to catch up. We'll bring him up on stage now and let's get started and we'll have a good a good chat. Yo, what's up, man? How are you? >> Hey, I'm good, man. Thanks for having me on. >> You're surviving. survived. Congratulations. >> Thanks. I literally >> all my friends think I'm a genius. And in all honesty, I was just like, I don't want to trade for a bit. I've been trading badly. And then it was really good timing, >> man. >> And before we get into it, is it Dioenies? Dioenesis? >> No, it's it's Dioenese. It's a weird Greek name.

>> Okay, there you go. >> Dioynes. Well, great piece. Kudos to writing it so quickly and getting it out so that people could start to make sense of of what happened. You also kind of explained a little bit of the leadup when it comes to China and the rare earth materials and and you know generally these export controls that are happening and so we don't want to rehash too much about what you already talked about but maybe you could just start high level. Do you do you think that there was signals here? Could we have predicted this if we were paying attention? Did did this just catch people off guard? Maybe let you know if we're talking about what happened, let's just let's just start from the beginning.

>> Yeah. Um I mean Yeah. So um we can actually start three years ago roughly. >> Okay. >> When the Biden admin started the chip ban with the the Chinese um and that was basically part of you know this was around ChachiBT. We kind of wanted to deny the Chinese any hardware advantage even though you know for most things they have a hardware advantage but luckily for chips you know the US and its allies have a significant advantage. So the Chinese have been thinking for like three years what their response is going to be. Um and in China like the big thing that the media was always talking about was rare earths which rare

earths are like pretty easy to find everywhere else. The refining of rare earths is actually a pain. It's very similar to aluminum. Aluminum is like actually quite easy to mine, but the refining of it is like basically the same as Bitcoin. It's like exporting energy. You just need a place where energy basically costs nothing. And in the case of rare earths, you also need a place where you're fine with basically poisoning all the near environment for like generations. And so the Chinese are experts at being like, yeah, we're fine with, you know, poisoning this valley.

We don't really care if that means that we can get this. whereas in the US you can't really do that. So I think their response was basically um they had been thinking about it for literally like three years. Um this was kind of known Trump really cared about it a lot. It was like an actually if you were very much following him there's a lot of things that he like kind of fixates on but this is also one of them. Um so when they announced basically those government controls it's not and their case is like literally the same as uh the US where the US basically said in interest of national security you know a Chinese consumer even in like Beijing that wants to buy an Nvidia chip needs

to get approval from the department of defense or department of war now I guess. Um, and there they basically made the same thing like say you buy like a tiny component that has 10% rare earths now you would have to get government approval. So it was pretty clear that Trump wasn't going to take that sitting down. I don't think anyone though expected a 100% tariff. >> Yeah. No, I mean that literally was the worst possible outcome. >> Yeah. I mean it's hard to go above 100% on a tariff.

>> Okay. So when I look at when I think about the COVID crash, I think that the COVID crash had such a more significant like actual ramifications on the global economy than a a a headline from Trump. Yet the the fallout in the market was almost the same. And I think it's, you know, if not worse across the board. It was faster though. It it it recovered far faster this time, but it was it it was worse in some names. I found it to be absolutely astounding how the, you know, top 100 tokens, let's call them, they effectively had like no bid. Like those things went damn near to zero.

Like like like how do you how do you kind of reason about um what happened there? Like are we just playing in this game of like completely inflated valuations that are just propped up by market making versus like actually where these things should be valued? Like that lack of bid was terrible. I I think a good way of thinking about this um Doug wrote a good piece about this about thinking um about these things as just a pool of money. And I like to think about them in like very peer-to-peer terms. Say like uh Andy, you and Robbie have a bet. Um and then Robbie's always paid you. If you've lost, you've always paid

him. uh if you've lost um and then all of a sudden, you know, Robbie loses, he owes you $100. He's like, "Nah, man. I can only give you 20 bucks." Suddenly, you know, you don't know if you want to do a bet with Robbie, right? And vice versa. And that's basically what happened as soon as ADL started. All these market makers were like, "Hey, how the do I price, you know, my bid just the the the exchange just being like, oh, you know how you should be making, you know, 100% on this trade?

Nah, that's too much. You're not allowed to make that amount." So that's the kind of environment that like sure you needed it to like save um the the solvency of these exchanges but it meant that all the market makers were like how do I price not knowing when I'm allowed to exit like suddenly the rules of the game changed midway and they had you know no one's been had to price that much risk on so much volume like it was like I think 4050 billion dollars of volume in 20 minutes that's unheard of >> I I think that is a It's a really interesting framing and a really important realization for people to have where this is a difference between spot markets and perpetual

markets. If you're trading on on perpetuals, these paper contracts, you need the counterparty. You can't just buy the asset and hold the asset. And so if you're going long, you need a short. And if you're going short, you need a long. And you can whe either side what whichever side you take, you need the other side in order to keep making money. And if the other side loses, you can only make as much as the other side is willing to lose. >> And and effectively >> or able >> or able to lose. Exactly. Right. And the other side ran out of money. And so even though you were in profit, you your profits were capped by how much the other side was was willing and able to lose.

>> Yeah. >> Let me let me ask maybe. Yeah, please, please. >> No, no, go ahead. Um, yeah, >> I was just g just just gonna ask in in the form of a question here. Is was it that the other side did they just take their money off the table and they weren't willing to risk it or did they lose it and it was taken from them? >> Yeah. So, I I think there's like an interesting way of thinking about this is um recently pers have been the really hot thing. Um, but the way that pers are treated given their risk is very different in crypto. If you know either of you told me on this podcast that you had a portfol diversified portfolio, but it's only options, I would be like, what

the actual hell does that mean? You know, like a month can pass and you have no money. But pers are functionally the same thing in crypto because of how volatile the market is. But people were kind of like, "Oh no, it's like the same thing." Like there are people that'll bid an asset on per one, right? Like it's basically like considered the same as spot. And to your point, like people just kind of were like, "Yeah, this is just like spot but better. I get three times, you know, the exposure I would normally get." But in cases like this, it's just not what happens. Like um to your original question about what happened, I think there were a lot of people, you know, we had just reached a new all-time high. A lot of people that are more retail are like, you know, as

soon as we reach an all-time high, the back testing says that, you know, 80% of the time we rock it up 20 to 30%. Therefore, I can like, you know, it's some Alama math of like we'll never go to the pre previous all-time low, so I can 10x long and I'll be fine. And I think that like wasn't a massive amount of people, but the fact that Trump also announced this, he announced it at market close, I think to not hurt the US market, but then that meant like all the crypto market was like, "Wait, how significant is this?" And then we looked at the normal market and they were like, "Oh the normal market is closed."

Like there's no frame of reference for actually how bad this is. And so then the people at the top of the book that were levered insanely long just got blown out and then they've pushed the price down. market makers didn't know how to price everything. So then people that were at like medium, not as risky um uh positions, their stop losses started to get hit and then it just kept on going from there. >> Dude, it was crazy how we've been in this purpose farming meta for like the last I don't know whatever month, let's call it, when it really got hot and I think I saw a tweet from like Moon Overlord. is like they really convinced everyone to start farming on on like points on purpeses with like leverage neutral neutral like delta neutral trades which you know those still have

risk like you can't like in events like this the longs got wiped and then anybody who had shorts had their position auto deleveraged so it was like kind of like you you got screwed um I I think that the perexes are going to air drop everyone who got screwed over in this event at least the pret PGE ones because that's kind of how Hyperlid did it and I think that's the only way to like do it. Um, but yeah, it's just it's like the whole like, you know, I've been avoiding Per Farms because I'm like I've been there like I've been I've been in the trenches at 3:00 a.m. looking at the accounts like managing stop losses and I just like not a sustainable life path for me. Like it's just not what what how I'm currently living. But now I'm like,

okay, I think I'm gonna go and finally deposit into perexes and across the board, you know, a couple of them, but maybe two or three of them and really get active because Oh, I got wiped so hard. And I I highly doubt we see another event like this for at least another it's going to be probably a year if not two this scale. Um, >> yeah. And so I think I think it's actually a lot of the risk and a lot of the appetite for per farming points farming is like gone down significantly. So it's like two nice kind of like uh things happening where the risk I think of this event happening again has gone down and then the competition I think in terms of OI has also gone down.

>> I I would just put maybe push back on that a little bit but uh get your opinion on it because now that open uh open interest has essentially been cut cut in half across the board. Wouldn't that mean more volatility, not less? Um, that depends. The So, what I like to think, the way I like to think about this is that per tend to be quite mercenary capital. Um, I think a lot of the OI was people trying to frontr run, especially on alts. Most of the OI was people trying to frontr run um, news about DATs or like the price impact of DATs or like some kind of squeeze

around per relating to DATs. It was all DAT related. Um, and so most of that you can think of as being purely extractive because pers um, pers do affect price. Um, just because you know if you're a decent market maker, sure you're not hedging out all of your positions. That's incredibly inefficient and like at least as they happen. But eventually, you know, if you're net long or net short a,000 BTC, you probably don't want to be long or short that amount. uh depending on how big your book is and you end up hedging with spot. Um so I think that's a big thing to think about is like a lot of these kind of mercenary

traders are out of the market and they're not going to be able to frontr run these people that are more long-term biased. Um, so that's one thing, but to your point also, yes, in theory it could be more volatile, but I think because the that type of participant has been eliminated, um, that type of participant, I think, also trades a lot more actively. Like, you know, an average per trader can have like a thousand dollars and trade a 100,000 in a month. >> So, I think the volatility will decrease a decent amount. You also have to consider the fact like >> half of the OI is Athena right now or something like that. Yeah. Well, also just that um the open interest on on centralized exchanges is is again a

different participant than the open interest on pre-TGE per platforms. >> Those are two different >> you know what I mean? So where do you think we go from here, man? Like what is the you know we got this uh you know we've been getting tipped off all weekend about people blowing up. >> Um and yeah, like what do you think the ramifications of of this are? like what like if you had to uh predict where we are in terms of like either price or sentiment or like you know bankruptcies, liquidations etc. Like where like where do we go from here to the end of the year?

>> Yeah. I mean I think it's we're and a lot of traders have talked about this but we're in a weird spot in that in theory everything's doing good but crypto is kind of lagging. like gold's pumping, the stock market's been doing pretty good, and crypto is relatively flat. Even BTC, which has this cycle at least, been pretty strong. It's like BTC and crime tokens are what have done well. Um, and so I think like people are like unsure if BTC will catch a bid even though mainly because like a lot of the DATs have stopped buying. Uh, and I think it'll be interesting to see where the MNAVs of the DATs after this close or sorry, on the next open. Um, I don't

think it's Oh, well, yeah, it's right. It's open right now. So, probably we'll find out soon uh where that settles. Um, I don't think that the cycle's over at all. Like I don't think this is like um an Alamita style crash and it's like okay you know this is just the be or like a Teral Luna style crash and like this is just the beginning. I think we probably keep going up until like early next year uh at the very least and then from there I would like re-evaluate from there. I think there's like potential for stuff to do bad but like credit market's strong. A lot of things seem strong. We're about to cut rates like there's no real reason for crypto to dump. Our boy Benjamin Cohen's finally calling for new ETH alltime highs. The

profit, the market profit is is getting ready for an alltime high. >> I have too much to use. >> Why Why do you think this time is different? Like this is not a Luna FTX style crash out that is going to, you know, take lots of time and and and energy to rebuild. Um, so I I guess I kind of skipped over in your original question, Andy, about the kind of inferred market maker stuff. Um, what I've heard is that a lot of market makers got hurt pretty badly. Uh, a lot of like larger, you know, nine figure ones lost probably um, you know, 10 to 20% of their book. Um, I've heard and

now I've heard from multiple people that jump lost, you know, a billion. uh which you know you kind of arbitrarily think of Jump as like a massive corporate they they only manage nine billion so that's actually if that's true that's a pretty massive uh hit that they took um and I think that like the annoying thing that you never want you know a podcast guest to say is like I have no idea when this kind of stuff will happen. Um because you have to think about the incentives for these guys. All of these market makers have insane amounts of credit behind them. Like normally they're two to 3x levered just on credit. And then you have to consider they're like, you know, potentially 3x levered on their book. Um so they're potentially

operating their books at like functionally 10x leverage. So if they admit publicly like, oh yeah, no, this was like a hard hit, but we'll be fine. Suddenly all their creditors can call them up and be like, hey, you know, I want my my money back. and that can ruin some of these firms. I think it is different and that most of these firms probably can make it back and be fine. Um, but there's probably I I know at least there there's something that's that's not getting a lot of attention, which is that market makers have different API endpoints um for these markets, especially ones that are top of book, which just means like they're market making all the time.

um a lot of those endpoints during the crash just failed completely for like 20 30 minutes and the 20 30 minutes that mattered. Um and so given that that happened all of these market makers suddenly couldn't manage their book and a lot of these topofbook medium-sized market makers are I've talked to like four or five that are down 75 85%. >> Um so if any of >> Yeah. Really? >> Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay. So, some lost 10 or 20%, but but you're saying that other market makers lost 80%.

>> You think? >> Yeah. >> No, I I know for a fact at least four or five like >> uh eight figure mid to large eight figure shops uh lost 80 85% plus. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> So, Okay. Okay. So, so it's it's not like uh hey, I lost 8 billion of your I lost $8 billion of your money. You're not going to get it back. I'm going through bankruptcy and then this contagion is going to spill over to stable coins into other exchanges. It's like a lot of the players, whatever profit that they may have made over the last couple years, they may have just got a lot of that fat trimmed off basically.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think the like FTX was unique in that if you think about like um the worst type of contagion, the worst type of contagion is almost always an exchange because an exchange is also how like other people like when FTX went down I was at Amber Group uh which is a Asia based market maker and the market maker had you know I think half a yard so $500 million on the exchange that they were using to do the delta neutral trade at the And so then and they were levered, right? So an exchange is a perfect example of like something that creates systemic risk. U a lot of these um market makers, sure they might tank the

chart for a bit because suddenly they have no money to bid. Um, sure they might make a lot of their creditors go bankrupt, but it's like these their creditors aren't like, you know, there aren't these big credit conglomerates like there were last cycle with like >> Well, I guess Nex still around like Block. >> Yeah. We just don't have that same level of leverage in the market right now, >> you know? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Which is great. I mean, DATs, people are worried about DATs, but like even still, that's like Ethereum DATs are just now getting into like raising conver like uh debt via uh convertible notes and issuing those notes. Like I think BTBS just finally said like we're trying to do 100 million, right? Um but people are worried about that, but that that isn't

even compared to like the level of of this margin lending loop that we had last last >> Yeah. And and to your point about the convertible debt, the convertible debt's not convertible to ETH. it's convertible uh to the shares, right? So, in theory, there's like it depends a lot on how these DATs are set up, but in theory, a lot of these DATs can um can avoid can have their debt called on them and still not cause any negative impact on the price. Uh and I think like a lot of people mention like micro strategy for that reason. If you look at the convertable, what percentage of their notes are convertible versus not convertible, the non-convertible notes or the notes that they would have to

like pay out in cash instead of paying out in shares, they would their liquidation price in like four years is like 5K. So I think Micro Strategy will be like fine. >> Yeah. I mean, they're like kind of like the Trojan horse right now. And if they're fine, then then we should be good. H So So do do you think that books for alts will be thinner now? like or is it really going to change or >> I mean that's a good question. I think there's like two parts to that. One is like say there's a market maker that went down uh I think it was pretty public because they were on Hyperlid.

They got zeroed. Um that market makes like Resolve and a few other tokens. >> Was that a scient? >> Yeah. Um, and so if they went fully down, contractually the inventory they were supposed to maintain is now like not on the book. So the book might be a little bit thinner. At the same time, market makers, I think there's a misconception in general that market makers are like what bids a token. Market makers are kind of just they're their contracts basically say like provide V2 style unis swap style liquidity across all the exchanges and that's it like they just

manage inventory. They are not really responsible. I mean at the start it's different because they have different ways of me determining how the price should settle because like you can kind of think of it as like there's like almost a bonding curve at the start to set what the price should be and then they start V2. Um, but I don't think that it'll impact alts as badly as some people think. And it might actually be positive for a lot of alts. Um, especially like stuff like Farcoin and these kind of things that like kind of was insane that there were people bidding per on it and that most people the way they got exposure to these meme coins was per net positive that so much of the OI wiped. Do do you think the like the next

like I I'm seeing that the next meta is going to be like return to memes and this type of stuff like this revenue meta got too far. People got too too entrenched into um you know wanting to farm these perplexes kind of come to a close here. What what do you think what what sector do you think uh responds the best to what happened in the market or is it kind of the same structure as it was before? I mean, I think that like there's I I don't I think memes are like very transparently zero sum. Like a lot of people like know that now. Um you can kind of argue that derivatives aren't and in the derivative space probably prediction markets. Um, you know, I can

see a couple CEOs doing laps of like, hey, you know, if you had held a prediction market, um, you know, will ETH go to this price or will BTC go to this price? Um, you would have made more money than if you had been on per uh because of ADL, etc. And then that's functionally an option. So then options also could potentially got get a lot of attention. But options, I think prediction markets are more interesting to me because you know like there's a cap of how much money you can make. Options the same exact thing can happen where like you know the counterparty just doesn't have enough money.

>> Yeah. You just get >> So I think it's like >> Yeah, but I think it's it'll it'll still stay around derivatives in my opinion. >> Yeah. Um guys, that was awesome. Um thanks for thanks for joining us and uh yeah, that what a weekend. What a freaking weekend. We got um Omar from Chaos Labs up next. He's talking about some of the Oracle stuff that happened. So, this is a whole another side of the story here. Uh you know that we're going to kind of, you know, unfold. So, thanks for thanks for being with us today. >> Thanks for having me, guys.

>> Really interesting. Thanks, man. We'll see you next time. >> All righty. Um wow. crazy. I mean, just you kind of like have this intuition that these sorts of things are happening, but to to hear about the mechanics behind it, very very uh insightful. Um, >> that guy's thread was pretty was pretty wild. >> It was a great it was a great overview. >> Um, and there's tons of factors uh but ultimately he really pieced them together quite well. Let I mean, one after another, let's keep it rolling. We got Omar uh from Chaos Labs who I think is going to provide a little bit more of a technical insight into how some of these markets work. Obviously,

>> the lads learned about ADL over the weekend, but we're going to also learn about oracles. >> Uh so, let's get Omar loaded up and we can send him in right now. >> Dude, they're saying that the value of the airdrop for Monad cards is going to be Kouch's pricing it at over a hundred grand 80%. Oh my god. >> Pretty sure you have a mod card. >> Yeah, I think we both do. >> Pretty sure I have a >> I think the rollup might I tried to send to my friends and I I tried to set up the rollup account and rollup ventures and I I don't think they let it fly.

>> Interesting. Keeping a close eye on those monad cards. Omar, >> let's bring Omar up. >> They were definitely protecting the symbol. The sibling. >> Omar, what's up, man? >> Omar. Om. All good. How are you guys doing? >> How's the week starting? >> Dude, we can we're we're just surviving, man. We're just surviving. >> Big weekend over here. >> How you doing? >> We're doing good. It was uh like not the most relaxing weekend, but all things considered, I think uh it could have been a lot worse. So, so yeah.

>> As a global risk management firms, you guys certainly had your hands full. >> Yes. Yes. I think like everyone was all hands on deck this weekend. >> Yeah. What is what is the state of affairs? Were you guys in the office? Was it a war room? Did you guys all just kind of like congregate and just everyone it's all hands on deck? Just what generally what was the was it panic? Was it what was the vibe in the route? >> Yeah, I mean not panic. I think like the firm is is really kind of built for moments like this and during these tail events is when we're like measured the most. Um, and to be honest, like things the the whole deleveraging and the liquidations that happened, it happened so quickly, right? Like in the span of an hour was the vast majority of at

least 19 billion liquidations. In reality, it's more. Um, so you really need to kind of prepare like ahead of time and have systems that can uh like react in real time uh give you a good understanding and picture of what's happening um and adjust accordingly. So we were definitely in a war room uh definitely online. Um I think the big headline was a but we also work with Jupiter and and GMX and Etherfi and then Renzo um DYDX and just a lot more. Um but kind of weathered the storm. I think DeFi did a lot better than CFI.

>> Yeah. Over the weekend. >> Would you say that there was is it a fair uh statement to say that there was oracle attacks >> or or is it kind of like Yeah. maybe you could walk us through kind of like why why that term is like used a lot but you know maybe may not be exactly what happened here. >> Yeah. Like so I think like oracle attacks they definitely happen. Um and I think there's like kind of two p there's two ways you can like look at like an I guess an oracle account or attack. One is like from the exchanges like perspective where someone is um explicitly and maliciously trying to move the price of an oracle in order to take advantage of a system. Um the other and this is why I say there's two ways

is there's like some type of market dislocation which is what we saw over the weekend. Um the the funny thing is is both of them can have the same effect and like devastation on the protocol um and in this case on users like specifically on Binance. So I don't know I know there are like rumors I haven't seen anything substantiated that this was like a coordinated um attack. I just what I think is is more just like not um a super deep understanding of the best way to price these type of assets. >> Um >> and would you say that given the volatility did did this did these systems perform as they're intended like these ADL things are supposed to happen like systems aren't supposed to have

downtime but for the most part would you say that these systems worked as intended? >> Yeah. So like if we're talking about some of the dexes uh like Hyperlid where ADL was triggered. Yes. Like this wasn't like a surprise. I think it's just kind of like in the fine print and uh it was certainly I think the largest scale of like autodeleveraging that ever kicked in on a decentralized exchange. But this is how the systems are designed. So they performed as intended. I think a lot of users were not aware of what happens in like during these tail events. Um, but it's it's really kind of the only way to go today when uh when you have protect >> the gang learnings about ADL in real time. Let's all study ADL after it's uh like like Doug from Fogo had a great

thread that went viral about ADL and it's just like even you know even from our perspective we didn't have any liquidations. We don't even use PERPS really. I mean, I'm actually just telling Rob, I'm actually going to start going on delta neutral low strategies on the pre-texes now because I was like I was like, dude, this is way too crowded over the last like month or two, but now like OI has been wiped. I think those people are going to be mentally tarnished from like wanting to even touch those apps again, which trust me, I've been there. Luckily, that happened to me in like 2017, not now. Um, but but I think that opportunity is growing.

kind of that aside, I'm I'm thinking about like the post-mortem here uh for DeFi, right? Chaos Labs manages risk oracles. You guys have some really uh interesting kind of like risk parameter technology, AI based uh technologies. Um from Chaos's Labs perspective, like what would be the the post-mortem from from this uh event? Should we expect fallout? I don't think there's bad debt anywhere. like from your perspective from Chaos Labs like what is the postmortem of this entire uh weekend? >> Yeah, I mean I I think that the thesis that we've had like as a company for many years is we believe like the world is coming on chain uh specifically capital that was previously reserved for traditional finance and traditional

rails. As such things are going to get more sophisticated. Um and like looking into that future um it's clear to us is like you can't really just look at price as a single data point. You need to understand for anything that's tokenized like what are the proof of reserves or or how is this thing backed kind of like offchain and then from risk there are just other data points that you want to enrich those feeds with. Um and and we knew that that like an oracle is not just going to be like an infrastructure provider or like an Oracle network. It's going to have all these other attributes of understanding context and being able to kind of um kind of transmit that clear actionable data pointed signal to the applications that are consuming it.

So I think what we saw on the weekend is what happens when you don't have a smart oracle. You just have a single data point. Um in the case of Binance, it seems that it was just like pricing uh USCE based on the mid of the book in those markets and like unfortunately like the fallout of that. Um and I think that we're we're already talking kind of like the largest institutions and uh we're just seeing that trend, right? like you can't just depend on secondary DEX market liquidity to price billion dollar markets because there will be adverse consequences uh during times of stress. Maybe to push back on like the idea and just to get a better understanding. I saw a tweet that was like, "Oh, is uh USDE basically just pegged to a dollar on a no matter what

happens?" And like that is not sustainable. That's not correct either. But then in your tweet, you know, you're saying that this price oracle is a risk oracle, and that USDE was always overcolateralized, continue to to function properly, process the mint and burns, and thus the chaos labs methodology saved about $4.5 billion worth of positions on a, you know, thus saved users about about $180 million in liquidation penalties, and then obviously all the, you know, downstream that comes with that. So like if someone's to say to you guys, well USD is just pegged to a dollar on a of course you know nothing went wrong. Like what is the proper like kind of like response there?

>> Yeah. So I would say the rebuttal is it's not pegged to a dollar. I think in this case it's pegged to USDT. Um so so that is the peg and I think basically like the the reason why why we had high conviction on this methodology for right now is we want to to avoid exactly what happened on Friday. So we wanted to avoid a scenario in which there's no problem in redemptions there the fundamental pricing should be a dollar but there is a temporary dislocation or wick on a secondary market right um and the way that USC is used in a um in conjunction like with Pendle and PT tokens just broadly across the industry is looping right so these are like kind of highly

levered like tight loops and they're very sensitive to those fluctuations so basically what we want to get to is like, hey, if this is just like a temporary market deviation, proof of reserves is working. Uh you can see the the Ethereum deposits like onchain, everything is fine, but the price moves in a curved X or in a centralized exchange which is used as a data source with the oracle. We don't want to liquidate billions of dollars of positions. So that's the end goal. Um and like kind of like looking forward to where we want to be as an industry for any type of tokenized asset that you're using any type of stable coin um you need to have a proof of reserves right that's the ideal otherwise you're just trust there's counterparty risk and you're trusting the issuer

Athena is actually like on the forefront of that I think that uh since going live with Chaos Lab's proof of reserves I think it's weekly um some of the biggest like asset issuers don't publish reserves at all or it's on a much like wider cadence, but the ideal end state is that the proof of reserves and the fundamental pricing and the secondary market pricing, they're all connected and your oracle is just smart and can adjust to to what's happening in the market. >> And so, we don't typically think of Chaos Labs as an oracle, but in in some of your posts, you you describe how a price oracle is effectively a risk oracle. And when we're thinking about a global risk management system, we're effectively we're pricing risk and we're we're thinking about how to structure

risk and convey prices that that can accurately uh portray the the type of risk environment that that is currently going on. Do do you think of Chaos Labs as as an oracle or or maybe you can just help to illuminate what the difference is between oracles and risk engines? >> Yeah, so 100%. Um almost exactly a year ago we launched Chaos Labs Oracles. It's the fastest growing oracle in the market. We have price oracles, risk oracles, proof of reserve oracles. So Jupiter for example, uh Jupiter per every single price uses the chaos stops price oracle. Um a uses risk oracles um and etherfy their whole cash product and the lending behind that is powered by

chaos price oracles, risk oracles and proof of reserve oracles. definitely like um that is like the one of our main products. Go ahead. >> And and just to double click into this, there's combinations of these things. There's price oracles and risk oracles. Like let's let's use a as a primary example. >> The chaos labs risk oracle works in tandem with the chain link price oracle. Is that correct? Could you explain how these how these things work together? >> Yeah. So I mean we can integrate with with any oracle. So we have some customers that take everything. We have some customers that are like, "We're going to use chaos price oracles, risk oracles, and proof of reserves." If you have another oracle and you want to use our risk oracle, we can do that too, even though we don't necessarily um

recommend it depending on the use case. Um a risk oracle is for example like liquidation thresholds or interest rates. Um these are parameters that need to be streamed in real time. Uh funding rates in the case of like per impact if you're on Jupiter or GMX, they update in real time as a function of the market. Um, so they need to be rooted on chain and consumed by the applications. It's not necessarily price. So that is like a risk oracle where a price is just like what is the price but I think the what we're seeing more and more is that these things are intertwined, right? So a lot of times the price might depend on a bunch of other things that are happening on chain like is this backed? Do we see the deposits? Are they publishing a proof of reserves? And I think the main

difference in in how we see our Oracle versus everything else is that a lot of Oracle providers today like to think of themselves as infra players. They say we don't know like we connect to these APIs maybe these market makers we don't have an opinion on on like this data but we can kind of promise you is that this data was emitted from this API where we come and say is like guys we're managing billions maybe hundreds of billions of kind of notional dependent on this data. we need to do a little bit better than just like blindly, you know, passing on um a sex price. So our data, our kind of oracles are smart in the sense that they have algorithms and kind of our risk engine behind it and and that ultimately affects like what's coming out on the

other end. >> Yeah. So, so USDE in a world like you know in 2020 we had the D event with D the stable coin had USD not been working with a and chaos labs in in in this way that they did and just did like a unis swap t-wap or a sex uh average of like five sexes. we could have had a really really bad fallout from USD on a with like just that liquidations that you guys protected or or you know am I missing something or >> no I mean that's like correct I think it's like the question is in absence of this pricing pricing methodology what would have been in use so typically what

most oracles do is they do some form of volume uh weighted average so they say hey let's connect to all of the centralized exchanges and we'll attribute a larger weight to the markets that are doing the most volume because that is like a proxy for the truth. It's typically Binance is like the highest volume. >> Um and like during this this kind of dislocation of the price there was crazy volume on that market. >> Um so that's typically like what's done and because these markets are are looped effectively like in a for example they're on emode um you didn't need to go to 65 cents to cause the massive liquidations and the cascades. So it could have moved 5 cents or, >> you know, seven cents and that would

have been >> similar to what we saw with USDC, right? Um when the SVB collapsed. >> Yeah. Cuz because emote is just it allows you to do that aggressive looping because you you're essentially assuming that the collateral and the debt are basically going to maintain the same peg effectively. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So what lessons do you think DeFi learned from this? Because there's always a lesson. There's always multiple. I mean it seems like you guys did a lot of things right. I'm sure you probably have some things that you could have done better or that you may have changed, but maybe more broadly or you know within Chaos Labs like what is the lessons here for for DeFi?

>> Yeah, so I I think that like you know pricing USD as USDT onetoone was like in retrospect the right decision for Friday evening. Um but I think more people are just becoming aware of like what a proof of reserve oracle is, what a risk oracle is. I'll say that while it worked on Friday, this is not endgame, right? Like the what we would like to do as an industry is eliminate counterparty risk. Um, and the real way to do that is by having a real-time proof of reserve. So again, Athena are the most advanced in this. The largest stable coins provide no proof of reserve. Um, and if you don't know what's happening like offchain, just as a risk manager and application, you're taking on the counterparty risk. So as a protocol

you're taking it on or your users are or some combination of both of those. And I think for like protocol founders um they need to like be adamant in requiring this from assets that they want to on board. Um and I think it's just basically smarter oracles right will just make everything more robust moving forward. So those are the two takeaways I think for us. >> I get one last question on the Athena situation. you guys are, you know, in tandem with a working with Athena and helped to establish uh that peg to USDT on Binance. There was this separate situation where USDE and Athena had negotiated kind of a a special

relationship with Binance. What do you have to say about, you know, kind of their risk engine and and what, you know, what they were doing? Is there a situation where you see chaos labs, risk oracle being becoming embedded into Binance that could have prevented the situation generally about these kind of special arrangements that that you know some protocols have with these exchanges? Is that a good thing? Does it help prevent some of these things but ultimately led to collapse? What what do you make of that those those arrangements? >> Yeah. So I I'll say that I can't like give specific like names but like 100% like what you're seeing in the industry right now is a convergence between centralized like CFI defi um the whole world wants to utilize like the rails that we built as an industry

whether it's stable coin yields cryptoback loans um just access to 247 trading FX um and there's a lot of complexity like we've built a lot as an industry over the past five years um so these exchanges these Finex, these neo banks, these institutions, they recognize that. Um, we'll be announcing a lot of exciting stuff like over the next weeks and months. Uh, but as an industry, yeah, I mean, this is what it's built for. Like the risk oracle should protect users regardless of whether you are DeFi native or you're a centralized exchange or you are on a big centralized exchange that's offering other crypto uh products to your users.

>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. um when it comes to actually thinking about what happens next uh I you know we there's I mean jump and there's this firm and that market maker and like it's there's some people have taken some some some haircuts here um but but I think like what's important is that the the core infrastructure that that is DeFi has like has remained strong and like it seems like we're not going to have any sort of like deep fallout or contagion from this at least not yet. We'll see kind of what happens. But for a variety of reasons, this is quite different than like FTX and like Genesis and Voyager and all these things primarily because there's a lot less of this credit and lending happening in like the opaque way

that it did in the past. Um, you know, in a situation where where uh we're looking ahead as a DeFi user, as somebody as somebody who uses a as somebody who uh participates in, you know, whether it's points farming, you know, stable coin yield, etc. To me, this feels like a really strong test of like Lindy for a lot of the top protocols and would probably encourage, you know, future deposits. Like I think we could look back at this at least in some capacity and, you know, you know, you mentioned the takeaways and I think institutions could look at some of those uh and just kind of what happened and be like, "Wow, like this system held up."

Like it didn't just break. Like I think if this happened in 2020, 2021, like we would be in a way different uh situation. So like when you're looking ahead from you know your personal perspective as well as Chaos's perspective like do you see anything materially changing in the DeFi landscape as far as like how things are done as far as like risk parameters as far as liquidity dynamics kind of what do you expect to materially change you know let's say from now to the end of the year and perhaps uh you know next year >> a few quick ones I think exchanges um are um are going to kind of move fast to kind of partner um with with different

like risk partners, oracle providers um to better understand how to price assets on their exchange. I don't know the exact number, but I think that um Binance is making users whole and that's to the order of like several hundred million. Um so obviously like there is a price for getting this wrong and it's something that's like being recognized. Um, and just generally I want to say that like yes, it was good. Like again, it could have been like super black swan on Friday and this conversation would be very different, but the amount of innovation that we're seeing in the space is is exponential. Um, and with that so are the risk factors. So while it was an amazing I think like really like demonstration of how far we've come

as an industry, this stuff is always ongoing. Um and the applications need to stay at the kind of the edge of the innovation and make sure that these new products are also secure. Um, so it's a really good data point. Obviously, amazing case study, but we continue uh we continue. >> Omar, thanks for joining us, man. I uh I'm sure you're slammed today, so I appreciate your time and uh >> yeah, it's a I'm sure the the Slack chat is is firing. So, uh >> thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate it.

>> Enjoy the busyiness and we appreciate your work. I think I think the entire Athena community is probably extremely grateful for just the outcome here. Um, and as you said, right, this is just one data point. We can build on it. There's still some things to learn and get better, but that's the process. >> Really appreciate it. Thank you, Robbie. Thank you, Andy. >> Appreciate you keeping our system solvent. Thanks. Next time. Bye, man. >> See you. Bye. >> Cheers, buddy. >> All righty. Well, I mean, those guys saved Athena. That's good. I mean, Athena saved themselves. they're, you know, they know what what they're doing.

But, I mean, without without that setup, I mean, >> I think it's interesting that the specially negotiated relationship they had with Binance did not save them. It was this more uh thoughtful riskmanagement approach by the onchain partners >> that ultimately uh saved them from a real DEG scenario. Well, Binance is paying backund or $283 million to their users as a result of this. >> And if that would have happened in an onchain system, probably wouldn't have repaid users. Where would they if it happened on a you know, >> there's no there's no I mean >> there's an insurance B&B chain just like >> B&B chain just air dropped $45 million

to anybody who's traded meme coins on B&B chain in the last like month. Just quick stemi. >> Quick stemi. >> Yeah. >> All right, guys. I think we're gonna roll into rumor mill where we'll be right back and then we've got uh another two awesome guests, Andrew from Recall and Vance and Michael from Framework to end us out long stream today. Uh we'll be right back with Rumor Mill. Uh we've got some absolutely spicy DMs to show and to talk about. So we'll be right back. Alrighty guys, welcome back to Rumor

Mill. Today's is probably the the wildest rumor mill. You know that we've we've only done one other. A few trading firms have been hit hard. We are hearing that science arb got hit for at least 20 million and is is is winding down and we got hit. We have got tipped off that Jump has lost a billion in Friday's fallout. I've also been tipped off that there has been a $400 million wipeout from a private whale. A lot of these whales being um kind of like not public and you don't really hear about them.

Um, so these are the these two funds are the ones that were pretty certain uh got hit really hard and I think Scan ARB got washed out to the point that they're going to have to wind down completely and I think Jump lost 20% of their book about you know maybe 10 to 20% of of of their book in this crash. Um, and I think it's it's really bad. I just want to give a shout out to our friends at Wrecked. This segment of Rumor Mill is presented by Wrecked. A billion dollars in losses. Cyan Arb got getting zeroed out completely on Hyperlid.

>> Yep. >> So, shout out to WT who sponsored this weekend's crash out on the markets. >> Yep, man. No, I mean, so I think this is just like the beginning of what's going to come out. Uh, I think there's probably a lot of market makers that got hit for about 10 or 20% of their book and then a significant amount got hit for probably or a couple probably got hit for like 70 to 80%. Yep. >> Um, you know, I put out this tweet yesterday, right, on my on my page that has gone absolutely viral and I've just been getting hit up non-stop about kind of like who who these market makers were or kind of like what's happening. So, this is this is the answer, guys. Uh, two large trading firms were liquidated to zero. One of them was Scan ARB. Uh I

don't think Jump was obviously liquidated to zero, but they definitely lost a billion. And look guys, the idea here is that they owned a book of top 100 market cap tokens in some capacity. They were long or short, mostly longs. And effectively what they did was was called cross margin. And so when you cross margin, you basically take, let's say you take ETH and then you borrow against your ETH position to go long on soul. And then you can then borrow again against your ETH and soul your ETH long or your ETH spot plus your soul long to go long on another asset. And so you can just keep looping these strategies such that you will make a ton if the market goes in your direction. But if any of

your bigger collateral assets like those longs start getting hit hard, you just instantly get wiped down. And basically we believe that scan arb and jump were effectively forced sellers of assets that were collateralized against each other in this cross margin fashion and they became forced sellers effectively at market prices due to this um either the auto deleveraging phenomenon which is when exchanges force you to uh close your position because effectively there's nobody to take the other side or just because they had liquidations hit um and you know they he basically became forced market sellers. So look, we're not trying to step on anybody's toes

here. This is uh obviously a really you don't want to be in this position and we feel for anybody or firms or people that lost in this. But guys, I think rumor mill is pretty freaking hot right now and we're we're pretty confident that scant arb is going down and that they're going to be signing off. Um and we're pretty confident that Jump has lost a significant amount of capital. One thing that uh is important to just recognize as part of these market makers uh trading on purpose exchanges and using cross margin is that they also have agreements with projects and you know they can take hedge they can hedge they can kind of use these other

purpose exchanges their other collateral as a means of balancing their book but when they get zeroed out and liquidated completely it means means that they can't fulfill their market making obligations to the projects that they have contractual relationships with. So I don't look there's projects out there, we're not going to name names, but they have contracts with scan arb and so if you're one of those projects, you got a contract with scan arb, you may you might want to make some phone calls. You should be asking questions. I think Jump also as we know has contractual relationships with projects where they do the market making and they hold a balance of these token supplies on their books. They didn't get lost, they didn't get wiped completely, but again this is

going to affect their broader market making obligations within the rest of the industry. So, we have to we have to take this into account and I think there are projects out there. We're going to find this out as this situation develops and these are situations to take into account. Do some research. If you're holding alts on spot or you have markets here, take into account whether or not these are some of the market makers that are making these altcoin markets. Uh, and you're on mute. I don't think that that that the that the ramifications of this are are going to cause contagion and like over-the-top crash out, >> but thin liquidity, >> but I Yeah, I think that, you know, I think we're we're going to have more and

more of these names come out and I think that um yeah, that's the reality. So guys, that is uh that is uh that is the room for today. One thing you just just to close out here, one thing you mentioned that I don't think we spent too much time on, but is going to be a developing story is that there are four to five other largecale market makers. We're talking billion dollars in in in assets that is again looped and leveraged to to multiple billions of dollars who also got not completely wiped but 75 to 85% wiped. And this again, we don't we're going to find these names out. You know, there's there's different ways to describe this. Bodies rising to the surface. We're going to hear these

names. And you know, as a trader and an investor, it's important to get out in front of this. Also, as builders y >> and and you know, stakeholders of organizations, it's important to take take prerogative and and deal with these situations proactively. >> Yep. Yep. Wild, guys. Rumor mill is hot. Block is absolutely hot. We've got more coming for you later in the week. Thanks for being a part of this segment. We're going to be be right back and then we'll get cracking on with our next guests and we're going to scroll the feed a bit. Thanks, guys. See you soon. all right. Well, so this is a good

tweet. Um, guys, welcome back. Fresh off of rumor mill. So, Jordy Alexander says, "I'll say this much. Exchanges that have tokens should start prioritizing their users instead of their token holders or they will quickly be left with neither. We have a long way to go on the road from casino to serious financial infrastructure. And instead of posting how much this vault or that one made from its users, I suggest thinking about how to address the obvious fundamental issues with market structure. For those individuals wrecked from participating in these flawed markets, I know there's many of you out there. Stay strong. You can absolutely rebuild stronger if you learn the right lessons right now. And Rob, I think this is kind of like the I mean this tweet was I think directed at Hyperlid because HLP Vault hit a massive $43 million

>> on behalf of Hype of Hyperlid traders getting auto deleveraged out of their positions and sacri and either taking losses or not getting the right amount of of payout for the risk that they were taking on their positions. Um and yeah I mean you know this kind of like so that's hyperlquid's negative side but then I think all the other side was that like the other purpose is they had fundamental technology problems the >> almost all of them had downtime >> the vault the vault people lost money people in like lighter LLP lost money and the traders also got auto deleveraged >> so it was like kind of the worst of all

scenarios for most of the other perexes is Hyperl had a bad situation where at least HLP won, but that's been what that's been the standard that Hyperl's done is like the Jelly Jelly Oracle exploit, dude. They were like, "No, we're going to roll this back and make sure HLP is is safe, right?" Or whatever it is. So, I think like at the end of the day, Hyperlid has shown its cards. Like, here's who here's what matters to us. It's the HLP uh depositors. And for better or for worse, that's what they've signaled to the market. >> I think I think there's some nuance to this argument here. And and I love Jordy. I think he's got I think he's an amazing guy and I think he's got great takes and obviously has done very well.

But I I I think you you there's a question to ask here which is that yes no argument whether they should be prioritizing their users but the question is which users are you prioritizing the users that are deposited into these liquidity vaults or you prioritizing the users that are gambling on pers and I think you have to ask when you're thinking about if it's one or the other obviously you want to try to prioritize both sets of these users. These are ultimately both contributing to the platform. But which one of these sets of users is stickier? And I think that's going to be the LPs.

The the the traders, these perp traders are primarily mercenary capital. They're they're moving along. You know, they're they're effectively gambling. Maybe they're doing some hedging or delta neutral strategies, but I think for the most part, the LPS are going to be the stickier liquidity. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that is some of the nuance that's missing from Jord's argument here because both of these are users on the platform. This was just one of those freak scenarios where it's up to the exchange like Hyperlid to choose which set of users they're prioritizing. >> Well, yeah. I mean, I think well, the thing is without the HLP vault, right, in this scenario, um the platform like that is that is what the entire platform runs on. So if that thing goes down,

then the whole the whole exchange is screwed basically because you've got like this these liquidity providers effectively saying we're going to take the opposite side of the traders to make money. Um and we will be like this kind of like this like liquidity backs stop layer for the platform. And I think that's kind of like it it's a non a non-negotiable in the way in the sense that you can't like you can't screw those people over because if they lose trust in depositing in that vault then they'll never deposit in the vault any anymore and then the entire platform is screwed.

>> You can say the same thing for the alter for the alternative group. You can't screw over your users or else they're going to go trade somewhere else. >> And so Hyperlid has shown their hand and look lighter has shown their hand too and you got where as a trader where are you going to choose to trade? You have an entity, the LP, whether it's LLP on lighter or HLP on Hyperlquid, that is taking the other side of every single one of your trades as a trader. >> Where are you going to choose? Are you going to choose the venue that is prioritizing the LP making money or the trader making money? LLP decided to take a loss and benefit their traders. You can't just let all the traders go to a different venue.

>> No, I know. >> And and that's what Jordy's trying to say here. >> Yeah. Um I think there's another interesting one here. Um, CZ doing some desperate PR damage control. Everyone now knows Binance is solely responsible for the market crash. Things are going to be bad for Binance and Aster that they need to they're so bad that they need to retweet a well-known Salana and Cardano scammer. Get your money out of Binance immediately. The tweet says, "Binance has 60% of longs liquidated, hypothers, 90% liquidated. Why is that?" >> I love this. This guy is so funny. He's such a hyperlquid bull. I think the way you pronounce his name is a a Alex. Hey, Alex.

>> And I just think I I mean he just has the wildest way of twisting everything in Hyperlquid's favor, which >> as a Hyperlid bull myself, I'm I'm I'm fine with. >> It is funny, right? >> CZ doing some desperate PR damage control, retweeting B uh uh Cardano and Solana scammers. But but it brings up a curious question. Why were there so many more liquidations that occurred on Hyperliquid than Binance and some of the other purpose exchanges? Well, it was because of the the the prioritization schedule that we t just talked about.

>> Yeah. >> Hyperlid is choosing to maintain solvency. They're choosing not to to retroactively uh recompensate traders. >> Yep. >> They're choosing to just let the system work as intended. And unfortunately that means traders get screwed. >> Yeah. I mean, Binance is is definitely on the chopping block right now. Like I've seen multiple tweets saying like get ready for Binance scam era because they're realizing that like where the puck is going as far as where trading is going to be happening >> and like you know pushing you know that they're just going to be doing what they can to kind of like I don't know. I don't know if it's like exit scamming, but it's like they're going to do what they can to basically squeeze what they have because, you know, everyone knows the whole token launch process for ex

centralized exchanges is pretty roughed up. Everyone knows that Binance has been making money on that, all these other ones. And so, like, I don't know, man. This guy's obviously just like crazy. He'll be like in CZ's comments like calling him an like just absolutely going at him. But, I mean, he's kind of got a point. Well, he's also got a thread that he's pulling on. And I think Hyperlid as a community is getting riled up because, and I know you've seen this rumor as well, >> the number one threat to Hyperlid right now is that CZ gets pardoned by Trump. >> Why is that?

>> We should have had that in rumor mill. But if CZ gets pardoned by Trump, he means he can run scam season inside of America. And if it's crime season of America, then I think Hyperlid has lost a lot of >> I think they've already uh they've already taken away a lot of the regulatory rules, if you will, that are allowing Hyperlid to have its own success. Um like Hyperl had that success, no KYC, etc. Now Coinbase has per you know they've enabled per trading in the states. So yeah, you know, I see what you mean, but I I think it's a little bit I think it's I think the the competition is a little bit more uh nuanced. um you know what I mean?

>> I'm sure aa Alex would have would agree with you on that. >> You think? I don't think he would. All right, guys. I think we've got um I think we've got our boy uh Andrew um from uh Recall coming in. Um he is the CEO of Recall. Um they're building some really really cool AI uh battles for trust, reputations, rewards, backed by Multicoin, Coinbase, some of the others. Um, so yeah, I mean, I can't lie. I just want to ask him about what he what all the stuff that that we've just been talking about all day. I'm sure that's kind of where we'll end up getting to.

Um, but yeah, that was uh those are like the the main two things that I wanted to go over. >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh, let's bring bring them up. Uh, we still got the uh the AA Alex Hyperlquid Bull on the screen. Um, but yeah, I'm I'm stoked. >> There's so many there's so many different ways to look at what happened over the weekend that the more that we talk to people, all everyone that we have on the show is just extremely knowledgeable um and and very insightful and thoughtful. So, the more that we have more the more perspectives that we have on the show, the more well-rounded I feel like even my own understanding is. And andrew is up now. Uh he's on he's on the show. So, Andrew, welcome.

>> Hi there. Thanks, guys. Wow. The uh the chat earlier I'm going to get his wrong his name wrong now too and you already got it right but Dio Genies. >> Yeah. >> Amazing. So good >> dude. Yeah. It's just wild weekend, right? >> Yeah. I have to ask you what did crypto learn? >> Yeah. I mean, I asked um I asked our guy um Omare from Chaos Labs, and I mean, well, the one key thing here was like that that there's been like this like uh like almost like a wall in between CFI and DeFi protocols because like they feel like they may be like competing with each other like centralized exchanges feel the pressure from unis swap etc. But now it feels like basically what what Omare was saying is

like we we got to bridge that gap because like any discrepancy that happens in DeFi, it causes a problem in in CFI. I'm like Binance was has suffered $283 million of customer paybacks as a result of USD being deped on their platform. But on a it it was fine. There was no deping. And so I think that's what crypto has probably learned. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's interesting. What about the, you know, what about the consumers? Like I I heard uh uh, you know, I heard a little bit of the conversation earlier about um, yeah, just just the way people are trading things like even even memecoins on on prep dexes and everything like how does the how does the new know how does this

how does this learning moment uh, dissipate in the community? >> I I think we're going to see an even more biodal distribution here. like we're we're going to see some people that have learned their lesson and say, "Okay, this is what leverage >> can do to people. We need to take it easy on the leverage. We we've seen that these things can get >> can can draw down by 50% in a matter of 15 minutes." Like that means it's really important not to use too much leverage. On the other side, we're going to see people try to make it all back in one trade and they're going to ramp up the leverage and they're going to think, "Oh, we just washed all this open interest and now financial nihilism is back. We're going to go 100x long on memecoins." Yeah.

>> What does your weekend look like, Andrew? >> Uh, busy weekend. I mean, you know, mostly focused on on product and building and, you know, didn't, you know, didn't have any direct exposure to anything here. So, mostly just trying to consume and understand what happened because what a massive kind of uh moment that's going to be referenced for years again as we try to build and change things. So, really just trying to learn like like you all and yeah, figure out what it means. Yeah. Well, dude, it's your first time on the show. We appreciate you hopping on. We'd love to just understand a bit about yourself, man. Like, how like what is your kind of uh story with with regards to building recall? You know, what are some of your specialties? What's your background? Um

Yeah man. >> Yeah. So, I I'm uh yeah, I'm probably an oddball in your guest lineup today. I'm I'm much more coming at this from uh models and intelligence and uh machine learning and AI and trying to think about how um crypto and the rails that we're all building can um be improved by and improve those systems. Um and so even this like man I've been I've been thinking about it a lot. Um but my my background is you know a biologist actually just working on big data systems trying to figure out how you can take huge data sets and determine if you can get signal from all of that to either forecast or understand something about the current reality and

those that way of thinking applies itself really well to crypto. I was thinking about like kind of the meta of this weekend quite a bit and it's like I go back to that kind of old trope of um you know crypto is a really interesting thing because we're trying to reinvent the entire financial system out in the open and how unique that is. Um but at the same time there's all these um like secondary risks that are layered onto it that are not totally open that are not totally transparent to people. So I like uh we'll get into it a bit what we build, but I was just very interested in this idea that um you know I don't I don't doubt that in the future if uh the hyperlquids still operate the way that they operate um that there will be um uh independent swarms uh testing and stress

testing those systems through a lot of different scenarios in order to create information about what exactly is going to happen. this moment that we're going into with like AI dramatically reducing the cost of software means that a lot of these software systems that used to be too costly for us to build the you know the tertiary software systems that aren't really your direct problem um are suddenly much easier and faster to build and so I I feel like the whole simulation engine of these economic open economic rails are themselves going to be open and uh available to everybody and then all of our wallets will be having AI trying to consume that and understand what those stress tests and security audits and warnings actually mean to us. So, back to the consumers,

you know, when you're putting the 10x leverage on on Farcoin, um what does that really mean? And what what do the different scenarios tell you um could happen to that? And I think that's the world if we're going to really make this, you know, an open financial system where all these things are possible, um and nobody's telling you that they can't be done. Um if all things can be done, just arming the people with a lot more information and I think we'll get there. Yeah, absolutely. I I think it is a good time to to describe a little bit more in detail what recall is because you're talking about some of these agent systems and these swarms of intelligence and and you're absolutely right, especially in the era of prediction markets like kind of analyzing what these potential outcomes are, I think, is going to become a lot more popular.

And if we can run simulations and we can understand okay well what if you know Trump announces a tariff thing it you know on on Friday after the after the markets closed we probably would have been a lot more prepared. So what what is recall and and generally where you see these creases in in this trajectory of where we're headed between AI and crypto and the hyper financialization of everything. Where have you been able to find this frontier that you've you've decided to innovate on with recall? Yeah, I I guess the um I guess the quickest sort of segue into what exactly we do is is to just point out this kind of moment that we're in with the AI models. Um anybody who is is kind of using and touching these models

every day knows that they're incredibly capable. Um and what they're capable of right now is far outpacing um the distribution of that ability. So there are niche pockets of the world that are able to harness these uh models to do incredibly sophisticated um work and um that's actually really hard and the reason it's really hard and and that and that's why it's kind of a fragment fragmented world of a lot of people doing it. And the reason it's hard is because these models are very good in the middle. They're very good at doing work but the the difficult things to get them to do that work well um come on both ends. How do you set up pro and prompt models to do what you want them to do? And a lot of that is being solved by agentic builders. You can think of

agents as essentially really sophisticated harnessing to do prompting um to get these agents to do again and again the decision-m the management the loops with tools. Okay. So a lot of people are trying to solve that. The other end of the problem is verification. Once any agent or model has done what it what you needed it to do, how do you know that the outcome is actually good? How do you know that it's quality? How do you know that it's rigorous? Um, and that verification is still incredibly hard and out of reach for a lot of people. And so what we're trying to do is use the best of what crypto does to bring that into protocols. So to allow the agent builders to prove what they're good at and to prove the outputs of these agents are high quality so that businesses and

protocols and individuals can begin to trust them and adopt them faster and get back to the pace at which the models are advancing themselves. >> Yeah. I'm I mean I I'm curious from uh just like the pure markets perspective here if you were if you were looking at the the you know kind of what happened in DeFi this past weekend in five years from now right in a more agentic onchain kind of landscape >> like like what comes to top of mind as to like what may have been different or like in in times of market crazy market volatilities and things when you know humans are too slow to react or aren't on your computer etc like are we thinking about these as like risk management management agents as like profit, you know, a trying to make money

like like what is the what do you think the the change of the landscape is going to be in these high volatility scenarios when agents are on chain? >> Yeah, I mean there's just there's just so many um components of what happened this week uh weekend that um um are going to take different kinds of agents and so and different um uh capabilities that they're bringing to the networks. And so that's a lot of what our protocol is trying to enable is to allow those sort of niche use cases to all be stacked up and then to actually allow those agents to coordinate together to give you very sophisticated uh results.

And so you you think about like the um the uh short positions that were starting to stack up for the 24 hours before the tweet um that really led to all of this cascade of events. um that building up um should have been something that everybody's wallet was aware of. Um and if you were in a position of high risk, you you probably would be getting very red alerts that something abnormal is happening that is going that is that is if it comes true is going to be a a direct uh catastro catastrophic event for your for your positions. Um there should have been a lot of other um warnings for you to get into those positions in the first place.

But um I think that that kind of world is is coming. Um yeah and I think like uh in five years I I mean it is so hard to predict where we get. I don't uh I don't expect there be I don't expect there to be many trades on crypto that aren't AI augmented. um for the same reason that software engineering today there isn't there aren't many lines of code anymore that aren't AI augmented if not AI written themselves and um and I think that's a really exciting world I don't think we're there yet I was just so we so we one of the ways that we are verifying intelligence is um uh like you can think of agents as as um

they're they're sort of in the early development cycle we know that like the meme of agents has been around for a year or do and a lot of people building into that. But like really these really strong models that can do long horizon planning and have big context windows and have access to lots of different tools and know how to le you know reason through using them. That's all very very recent. And so the builders are just really harnessing that. And so they're still very uh they still have a hard time with you know long-term planning and being able to actually like execute a plan over many days. Um, but what we what we have are actually arenas that are testing builders that can do that.

Um, we thought it was one of the most exciting areas to build first. Even though we know the agents aren't going to be fully capable of that now, our arena is actually a place to start measuring how quickly they're advancing towards that ability and when you're going to have agents that are doing that. In the future, we'll fragment that and have much more um nuance skills that the agents are actually fully capable of now. But I was going to say we have an arena where agents are actually perpet trading. Um and we actually just launched this a couple weeks ago. We have another one launching um very shortly. Uh and um there was there's a really interesting thing that the winning agent in in that first arena um it won by actually taking out pretty large leverage positions. It

I don't think it shorted any any tokens um and it had like 10x leverage on most of its positions. So just thinking about if it if that arena had been running on Friday, I I think we would have seen that most of the strategies that the agents were actually deploying for perpetrating were not prepared for this either. And that's actually really really that's really really valuable verification as we're trying to figure out how capable AI is and how quickly we're going to deploy it into these systems. But at the same time that I'm saying it's not ready now, I think it's advancing incredibly fast. And we're kind of we're one of the early ecosystems that's letting the builders measure and and uh and test these things in order to advance them week over week and get better until we can see the real

uh marks of success. >> Andrew, there's kind of these two uh I don't know, angels, demons, however you want to call them, these competing forces. Um on one hand we have AI which is going to lead to this explosion in productivity um as we start to implement these things and they do become ready. Um and the theory is that that's going to be very deflationary because it's going to take you know a a lot of systems uh and it's going to make them a lot more efficient. On the other hand we have this debasement trade that we've been talking about time and time again and that's leading to this meteoric rise in gold and precious metals. It's also leading uh these economies to run their their budgets hot and and print money and and that leads to increases in asset

prices. So when you're thinking about kind of these two competing forces, where do you see this playing out? How how do you see this evolving in the markets and and generally as a builder? You know, how how do you think these things shake out? >> That is a that is a loaded question uh for sure. Um, you know, uh, I I forget how you say his name. I think we've all heard it thrown around in AI conversations. The Jevans paradox. The idea demand. >> Exactly. The basis that like, um, if you if you build a bigger road, you're just going to get more drivers. Um, is the is the easiest way to summarize it. Um, and so a lot of people apply that to things

like software engineering. Um, we're actually just going to write a lot more software now. Um, but I think this is going to play out over phases. We're sort of especially in like the crypto domain. We're we're in the first inning in a lot of this. Um, these models are just we're just figuring out what they're capable of and where they're best applied. Um, I do take a I don't I don't know if you call it like a dystopian uh like uh tint to my view of where that could go because you think about automated financial rails um and models that can read and consume um news and information just as capable as I can. Um, I don't know if there's if if

you if you zoom far enough out, I don't know if there's a role for humans in crypto. Maybe a select few that are are are really trying to uh exploit the edges and what models are capable for a while. Um, but um, yeah, I just don't know. I just don't know. It's like it's kind of like maybe the best analogy is what happened with high frequency trading. There used to be a role for humans that were trying to do it on their own. Um, and then really that got quickly uh consumed by hedge funds that had armies of people building models and automated systems much faster than any individual could actually remain profitable in in

that system. And I think we might see similar things happening in crypto. I don't know what that means for the actual markets and um what kinds of uh what kind of memes run through crypto and make it profitable. At the same time, there's there are things that are distinctly human. So like the social social aspects and things like that probably there's always human humans playing games with that, but actually uh moving liquidity and things like that. I it seems like it's an AI dominated future. >> Yeah, that's that was a loaded question for sure. I don't even know if I answered it. I just >> loaded answer.

>> No, you did. I mean, there there's there's a shifting landscape that's evolving here and it and it's AI that's getting increasingly better and it's humans that are just continuously getting their their weaknesses exposed. >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And and the human weaknesses are uh are places for AI actually. So humans that do want to continue to participate can start actually um hiring and building and leveraging AI shields um that help them avoid the weaknesses and uh use their taste or judgment to still remain profitable or have fun in this system without taking on that massive exposure or getting totally liquidated over a

4hour period. >> More specifically, how can they use recall to accomplish that? Well, recall's in our our early stages and so we're really focused on um uh trying to measure and assess and and um pull the agent builders to these ecosystems. I think there's just for all the reasons I just said, there's a massive opportunity for AI to have a a very important role in the future of crypto, but we don't want people to rush towards that in the wrong ways. So, we're trying to create protocols that um one can start um uh performing the ver verification of the agent performance um can actually recruit more agent builders to get

verified um to show show what they're capable of and we do that through a couple of different tools but then we also invite the community in because we think this whole point uh this whole point of awareness and being on that forefront is is actually really exciting thing. So we have sort of games that users can play on top of that by trying to predict and forecast what agents are capable of before they compete. So they're trying we have our community trying to actually recruit um and understand what agents and agent teams are doing and then figure out which ones are going to be the best at these different competitions whether it's um spot trading or paper trading or per trading or in the future other other um other bifurcations of that that that are

coming. Uh and you're on mute. >> Sorry guys. Are you seeing profitable agents? >> We are seeing profitable sick >> agents. So yeah. So uh like I said um with caution. So in uh in the spot trading competitions we so what what we do just so you understand actually a click deeper what we do is we um have um these series of uh skill-based competitions and we call them skill markets. And so a market actually plays out over multiple competitions and agents compete not just in one competition but they have to come back and compete again and again in order to show their uh continued performance. And

so you like we the spot trading um competition is a weekly P&L competition. So they're going for pure P&L. They can do whatever level of risk they want in their um pure P&L um skill. And the agents then compete and when they uh when they rank in any weekly competition um they actually um build up a score. So if you've played chess it's a um it's a variation of ELO. So in ELO there's a a score that you can basically if you join the international uh uh Feday uh for chess you can play in any Feday uh competition and your score will change based on who you played and what your what your result was. So we do that per per skill pool. So agents compete again

and again and try to build that score up to show that they have consistent performance that is better than all the agents. And so we've had a number of agents there that have actually been consistently um profitable um week over week. The purpose rating we've only run once. We just kicked off our second one um and we'll have a third one next week. And so it's early days to say if they're consistent. And like I said, I I think if the ones that had run in the last arena had been running through Friday, we might have seen a different story. So they were profitable but did not actually live through that dip. Um so too too early to tell.

>> Yeah. I just it would be super c like it' be super insightful to understand like because agents don't really act with emotion. Yeah. >> But like from a just a te a pure technical like momentum swing perspective with such fast speed of like you know Sue went from like 2.8 eight to like.3 or something or something like crazy or 1.3 something crazy. >> Um like would would the eight would it have hit some like meaningful threshold such that like it made sense to sell but then looking back it would have sold in the wick you know you know from a human perspective I was just you know I was I think I was like I don't even know what I was doing. I was out with some friends and like it happened. I came back like prices were down but they weren't like they had came back up you know so and I

didn't have a chance to sell and I wouldn't have you I probably wouldn't have done it but like would the because the agents 24/7 on you know would there have been some like parameter that would have hit that would have caused him to sell and then underperformed just the dumb human who was like having a drink you know >> well I I I think whether they're profitable or not at this stage is is is going to be maybe too early to be enough information to want to use them still right so like um what we're asking asking these agents to do is kind of the full loop portfolio strategy, which is a really complicated thing and they're trying to do it over a oneweek horizon. So, um they're trying to think about entering positions, exiting positions, trying to uh you know, stop loss positions, what whatever whatever they

need to do to maximize profit. Oh, I I should have said that the um uh the purpose competition is actually a risk adjusted one. So, it's it's max profit um low risk um lowest risk to get the ma max profit. Um but so they're they're doing anything they can do that. I think it's probably safe to say that we're a little bit early for models to to do that super effectively all the time. Um but you can break that skill up and we we thought it's a it's a very it's a very interesting kind of go to market for us to have that be some of the those be some of the earliest builders. They're very exciting like they're very exciting to watch. Um but we can start to break that up. So um some models are probably going to be very good at monitoring social and news

and understanding what um critical sentiment signals are coming in. Um and that's one skill and it doesn't take that full loop. Um but it it takes some full loop because you want to understand like what is it relevant to um and then there's other skills of just saying like uh SU is down I don't know what it would totally went down is down this amount is it a buy or sell and it's a pure boolean prediction it needs to make and and those are those are very different things and then how long should I hold it is a different thing so I think what we'll we'll start seeing is that these skills start to um split into many different skills and you'll see agents specialize in and trying to coordinate.

And what's so exciting for us is it is so early in the agent kind of internet coordination among agents across organizations is not happening yet. As much as people um as much as people are building for it, it's not happening yet. But we see like uh Google launched their protocol AP2 uh which which includes uh work like X42 which is a standard for agents to um transact stable coins for API access and things like that. They're basically setting up the the protocol for the internet to support agent payments and agent coordination and that's just going to continue again. So then if you think about what an agent needs to actually manage a portfolio

full loop, which is maybe the hardest skill, it it's actually the coordination of a subset of many agents that are making decisions at different times. Um >> yeah, >> if yeah, if you're into the brain, it's kind of like pansychism of agents. You have different you have different consciousnesses that are dominating depending on what the different uh different thing happening in the world is. And then your portfolio will be managed by that. But that's a few steps down the road. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, but that's like, you know, you're doing business and one part of your brain is on, you're with your family, then there's another part of the brain oriented, then you're driving a car. Is it? So, but like >> in you know, people think of trading as just one thing, but it's like there's risk management, there's like stop losses, there's like take there's like a

whole there's a whole >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Like Friday night, the fear index would have been full red and and a different agent would have become the dominant voice saying, "This is what we do. This is what we start to exe execute. I need this. I need this. I need this." there'll be some orchestration. That agent may not actually be making money for the same organization as the agent that uh is just handling a you know a trading sideways sort of week. Um and then there's some orchestration happening on top of it and that you know that's the world we'll we'll get to. But um but right now you know you kind of test the whole thing. you take little stabs at some of the smaller pieces as we bring intelligence into this open financial system that we're all trying to

reinvent. We need to kind of find the best agents that can reinvent or augment each piece of it uh almost one at a time. But back to our protocol, what we're actually doing is creating these skill markets where we're slowly inviting other organizations to start to define what is the skill that they need most on their protocol and in their network and actually um seeding that and getting agents to come compete for that. And so we'll see even faster proliferation than the current state, which is us right now curating which skill comes out at which time. especially coming from your bi biology background and that that economic background to hear you talk about some of the ways that you're implementing the brain structure and and the way that it's moving into AI and the intelligence system.

>> Yeah. >> It's just f it just runs it runs so so deep. >> It just is a brain. It's just a separate brain. >> Yeah. you know, when I became a biologist, the the the thing that made me convert to being a biologist as an undergrad and I read this book uh and I was so fascinated by the book, I like wrote the I wrote the author a letter and he responded to me and I was like, "Oh my, that's it. That's the that's all I need." Like this book >> What was the book? >> Exactly. >> Exactly. The book was about the moment in the evolution of life where all we had on the world were single cellular organisms and then at some point they made the the choice that's a bit anthrop anthropomorphizing but they made the

choice to become multisellular. >> Why? How did that happen? How did cells aggregate and make the choice that one cell could die uh to save the entire colony or the entire uh the entire structure and that they would share resources across them? How did that moment happen? And that's that that I mean you just made me think of it. I hadn't thought of it, but that's a bit of what I'm talking about that right now we're really in the single-sellled agent agent. there's just single cells out here in the world and but we will pretty quickly get to this world where um agents are coordinating and working together and those structures will get more and more sophisticated.

>> Yeah. I mean I think when we think of agents now you think of like you're just going to have like this one personal assistant agent that's going to manage your entire book for you. But what what what we're kind of what you're kind of realizing here and what you're building recall for is like >> it's almost like there's going to be like basically you're trying to like understand that if we can have this shared shared growth experience of like specialization with with specific types of of agents then theoretically we can we can combine these in in some capacity and get a much better result via orchestration. Now whether or not people are actually going to want to give away their their sentiment fear greed agent to like you know somebody else is a question that we'll have to kind of get

to or like how open source are we going to want to make these things you know if there's if there's profit on the line right you know ultimately but um you know I think that like conglomeration of intelligence is is like it's just fascinating because it kind of like you you think of like agents as like oh I'm I'm going to interact with an agent but it's like maybe there's going to be like like your master one that is like has access to all of the sub ones but like they they make the final call based on like all the master or like all the sub ones. I mean this is what happens if you use uh chacht like chatyppt is actually a a set of agents underneath the hood and they try to route your request to

the right agent at the right time you just don't see it as much and so you just think about bringing that kind of intelligence into the open financial rails and it's going to look a lot more like open protocols with you know insur like you're saying like are you going to trust this thing well trust comes down to past performance it comes down to who else is using it comes down to insuring uh or like or um what kind of risk are they putting on the line and how and how much control do you need to give them of things and all of those kind of building blocks are to be built now. That's so exciting to me and uh yeah, we're really excited to help out doing that.

>> Yeah, >> Andrew Hill, thank you. Thanks for your time, man. It's been a pleasure. Um thanks for having me. >> I think we could talk about agents and aentic systems uh for hours so you can come whenever yeah a couple months down the line or something. We we'll be glad to have you back. >> Andrew, before you go, uh, shout out that name of the book. >> Oh my gosh. I think it is just called on multisellularity or something like that. I mean, this is ages ago, but I think it's it's something like that. >> I'm going have to notebook LM that one. >> Yeah. Yeah, good idea. Yeah, >> listen to it. Cool. Thanks, Andrew.

>> Really appreciate it. We'll see you, buddy. >> Cheers, man. >> Glad that everyone has uh survived this market downturn, eh? Not everyone. Did not everyone mill. >> Yeah, apparently. Apparently, apparently the market's hot. What's going on in the market? Actually, we got Michael and Vance from Framework coming up next. >> Soul 205. >> Wow. >> Bounced right off of that uh right off of that 200 day SMA on the daily time frame all the way back down to 172 uh on Friday. Back above 206 now. Bitcoin 1152.

soul ETH 4230. I mean I mean guys like this is what you can expect with the latest stage volatility in the market. I mean it it's kind of what you what you get. Um you get this c you get this sort of craziness that um you know h that just kind of happens. Uh hype is back about 41. Um, yeah. I mean, it it if we V-reversal this thing, it's going to be unreal. I mean, these guys are going to be so bowled up, it's going to be insane. I guarantee Vance and Michael are going to come on here and talking about alltime highs for sure, 100%.

>> I mean, I'm pretty sure you saw the screenshot I sent you of Vance's retweet of DJ Ping. >> What was DJ Ping's take? What is the lore with DJ Ping? I keep seeing him on Twitter. I have no idea. >> I don't know, but let's try to provoke a retweet from him. Let's get these guys to talk about him. >> Wait, so is so he just >> he said all time highs in October. >> Well, he tweeted the exact day. >> He said 1010 bid and then he said like 117. I don't want to get that wrong, but it was something like that. Yeah, he tweeted the exact day to buy and sell.

Uh let's see. Let's see. Let's see. That was a while ago. But he did say buy 1010. >> Well, the thing is people don't realize if or people people don't yet know if he's um if he is uh um like if he's from Europe or if he's from um the other, you know, places like like if if you're like like or if you're from the States or the other places cuz if you're from the States, then your date setup is wrong, right? But if you're from Europe, then it's like the month first, then a day.

In the States, it's like month date, you know? So, it's like >> Yeah. >> Oh, you're saying like 11 five could be >> could be May or May 11th or it could be November 5th. >> 5th. Yes. >> Okay. So, we got to ask Vance and Michael. >> So, so nobody knows nobody knows where they're from. >> Well, 10 Yeah. 10 is the same either whichever way you cut it. >> Well, >> 1010 or 115. Well, 1010 is it could be November. It could be the 10th day of November in November. >> No, no, no. 1010 is 1010ber month. Yes.

>> Yeah. So, either way, it's 1010 obviously. But this is Okay. So, now you see why Den Ping's gone viral because a bunch of like numb skulls like like me are like, hm, where is he from? >> November. Is it tangible? And >> they're trying to debate whether or not it's like it he's he's American or not. Wow. It's been around for a while, >> dude. Even the S&P I mean S&P obviously got hit, but it's up a percent and a half today. >> Well, S&P >> and it was down 2% on Friday. So S&P has almost made an complete reversal um of what happened on Friday.

>> Obviously didn't have to go down with the wicks over the weekend. >> Yeah, I mean um overall I mean East breaking to new local highs right now. I mean yeah, it looks good. I mean, I think we just going to I think we're basically about to full send. >> Yeah. We claim 4,400 4500. This is pure wick off spring straight off of the lows and we just use this as extra momentum. >> Yeah, this is going to be pretty um I mean, yeah, because when you get a wash out of that caliber, um yeah. So, all right. Well, we're going to hear what what uh Vance and Michael have to say.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, we're we're going to get them in the chat. the team is just setting them up in the back. But that that's generally my understanding of these things is once you get a wash out, you clear the books, there's low liquidity, makes it easier to go up or down. >> The books are cleared. I'll tell you that much. There is no more clearing left. I mean, if the if there's more clearing left, we got to brace for impact. But I mean, it's just anybody who was long on any altcoin in the top 100 basically got washed. like it could have literally just been a 1.2x long on like you know like like I use Sooie as an example and and you would have got wiped. The only ones that were safe were ETH and Soul and Binancecoin

and like maybe Hype but even Hype got kind of hit. So like if you had any leverage you were you were you were getting hit which is just >> absolutely. >> Yeah. >> No cozy and spot. >> But it looks good now. I mean we'll see. We'll see. All right guys, we got Vance and Michael uh ready to come up. We're going to bring them up. Um, and I have a feeling that they're going to be max bullish. Uh, they they tend to be. Um, we've wiped out the entire market. Uh, we're we're bouncing quite well now. ETH 4240, Bitcoin 1153, soul above 205. So, yeah, Rob, it's looking like the market has reclaimed the 40s. Let's get these guys up so we can >> Yeah, here we go.

>> All right. >> How we doing, >> guys? Welcome. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having us. >> Good to be here. >> We've we've uh survived. >> Congratulations on surviving >> surviving the bare market of uh 1010. >> Yeah, 1010. DJ Ping, we're >> just talking about DJ >> favorite character currently. >> I love DJ Ping. I don't know who it is, but he's he's got good calls. >> Well, Vance, we saw your retweet of all time highs in October. That's >> the things I'm looking at right now are um sorry I'm just looking on my phone but what's interesting is that all the funding rates are still negative.

So, I mean, especially on on all the alts because they got hit so hard, it feels like someone just kind of sold on purps their entire alt inventory. And even with alts rallying, the funding rates are still pretty negative. And most of the time with alts, like it's not really negative or positive. Just not much of anything is happening. But feels like finally someone is off sides on alts, which is a good thing. >> Yeah. I mean, I was just saying if you've if you had any sort of leverage, even like to the tune of 1.1x or 1.2x on on those top 50, top 100s, you basically got washed. Um, and and I think like now kind of like the thesis is basically that's been, you know, that's happened and, you know, we can continue up from here. I'd like to talk about the future

and kind of like what you guys are seeing, but we got to kind of do a postmortem here. So, you know, you guys are, you know, obviously on the East Coast. This happened like Friday evening or sorry, >> West Coast, bro. >> This happened Friday evening. So for you guys, it was like middayish afternoonish. Um, where were you guys when this happened? What was your response? What the hell? Like what what was this like from Vince and Michael's eyes? >> Where where were you when it happened? >> This isn't like the JFK assassination, but I think uh I mean we were actually trying to record a podcast. Yeah, >> we had to put a pin in that uh because just in case the market literally went to zero, we needed to be up and ready to do things. But I think the main thing is

that we mostly hold spot and we don't trade on pers, especially not on these overseas centralized exchanges. Um, and I think, you know, there's been a lot of postmortems done about what exactly happened. So I don't think we need to like get into I mean obviously it was like USD depedged which then liquidated everyone and then you know there was questions about whether it was malicious or uh innocuous but there are people who got to buy USD at 65 cents um at large large size and then same with I think being soul and we have heard of you know at least one trading firm who kind of got taken out which would make sense given that all the alts sold off the hardest. If you ever see something DEG and then ETH and Bitcoin sell off and

then everything else sells off, that means that someone had to liquidate basically all of their inventory of alts to keep themselves stable. Um, but I think the first thing is I feel really terrible for everyone who was impacted by this. Like the list of hyperlid wallets that went from 70 million to zero, uh, you know, or or the hundreds that went from, you know, six figures to zero, that's just like absolutely terrible. And there was someone who benefited from this on the other side. you know, we don't know exactly who it is, but I've seen some guesses on Twitter. Um, but it it is like kind of a shame that like crypto Twitter is is only capable of like really kind of explaining it in the most complex terms possible, like really taking it into orbit or, you know, kind of giving the response of like, well, everyone

who got ADL and like our trading firm had the best day ever. Um, I think this is a tragedy that so much OI got wiped out and so many people in the process. Um, and I think it means that the the mission of Hyperlid has never been more important. Honestly, the industry cannot continue on if Binance is the main venue that we all trade on. It's just nobody wants to allocate capital to a place that is considered dangerous and lawless. Uh, and so until we get past that, it's going to be an albatross in the industry and feel bad for someone who got impacted.

>> Yeah, wholeheartedly agree. I think, you know, just to roll it back onto what we were doing and talking about and and thinking about on Friday, but then also over the weekend, when you see a major wick like we saw on Friday, everybody like gas basically goes to 500 on ETH. Nobody can move assets around. You're kind of waiting for these pending transactions to settle. And I think generally it takes a couple of hours for some of these systems to kind of like catch up. But once they catch up, that's when you really do kind of have the like everything starts processing, you know, orderly or or disorderly. Typically, it's pretty orderly these days. The last disorderly process that we saw was March 12th, 2020. And you know, that that was the COVID crash. Um, where things really

did fail and and go to halt. Um, but what we what we kind of see typically is you you see everything kind of orderly process in the way that it was started. it gets, you know, turned through the the funnel as it goes in and then everything kind of settles and and what typically also happens is you end up with on Saturday or the day after another retest where you get a bunch of people who say, "Okay, let's go see if there's real kind of staying power to this, you know, deadcat bounce or potentially resurgence, V-shaped recovery." And that's where it gets tested again. And and these are actually great buying opportunities. And so our our primary focus, you know, when we're thinking about what to do and how to react, you know, like Van said, we're in spot, we have stables, we're moving

stuff around on chain um to be able to get into some of these buying opportunities, but that's the first conversation that we have. It's like what do we buy? What's going to be the huge opportunity here? Um and you're we're going to get probably one, but maybe two shots at doing it. whether it's right now or we get to wait 24 hours for that second wick down. But unless there was something substantial that drove this, which it seems like there isn't, you know, Trump already came back and and kind of rebuffed the commentary that he had that drove this in the first place. Unless there was something substantial, this was going to come back and we knew that there was going to be a bit of a re bit of a V as we're seeing right now. So, I I I wholeheartedly agree with everything Van

said where it's terrible that this industry is still prone to this type of stuff. Um, Binance, I think, you know, I don't I don't know if it's going to be another major wick or another major catastrophe or if it's just going to be like a thousand paper cuts that finally gets everybody to recognize that this is not what we need. Um, and decentralized players like Hyperlid are are the the ultimate solution. Um, but it definitely does push us in that direction as an industry. So, it's positive in that respect. >> I I think it's important to just call out a couple of the uh pieces of evidence that support what you guys are saying. Flood, thinking USD put it like this. Why is nobody talking about the fact that clearly Binance had special

nonADL deals with certain counterparties? Clearly violating the fact that they're supposed to be a neutral entity. What other pref preferential treatment do they give to insiders? Info on user special APIs. When you guys are looking at the deals that Athena has negotiated with centralized exchanges like Binance, they've probably done it elsewhere and there's probably other projects that have done this. What What goes through your like the psychology and your train of thought? How do you react to Did you already know that things like this are are taking place? And as a industry, how are we supposed to reconcile with these special deals that we we don't know are taking place?

deals in this industry. Uh if you really think about it and um if you are five, six, 7% of open interest on any of these exchanges, you do have a special deal, honestly, whether you know it or not. Um and what that means for everyone else is that they don't have it. So every single dollar of open interest that's on these per exchanges that does not have uh ADL protection, you know, they are disproportionately in the eye of the storm when these things happen because the other parties are not. Um and you know it's it's kind of uh you know I think Athena did a lot of things right.

Um you know they had deep defi pool liquidity to support themselves. Uh I personally think the use case of USD is margin is cooked. you know, we should not be doing that, especially when things dislocate on a per basis and your stable coin is based on a perpetual swap yield exchange. Uh, like you are obviously going to be impacted by that. Whether Binance did something malicious or not, I think is a different question, but like generally like the risk needs to be tamped down. Um, but when you put any of your coins on these exchanges, you know, you are in their clutches. And you know, you think about when things like FTX ended, like as soon as FTT was on that exchange and they put a lot of open interest on on on Binance, we knew

that FTX was done. >> CZ was not going to let them go. Like it was just going to end. And I think we got away with one in terms of, you know, Athena being in that position today, but that was a warning shot. The next one will land. Um, and so I think it's a uh even to people like a like look at how much USDE is uh in those pools and like I'm kind of touching the fourth rail of like DeFi lending right now but like the risk needs to be chilled out a little bit and there needs to be less concentration within specific coins I guess USD today uh so that we can be more resilient tomorrow. But you need to be very cautious when you put your coins on exchanges that are centralized

because maybe you have an ADL, maybe you don't. Maybe they honor that deal, maybe they don't. But like, you know, you have seven, eight, nine billion on that exchange. You don't think it's above them or below them to kind of take 10 or 20% of that? I don't know. You just got to be careful. >> Yeah. I don't know if you guys touched on this. I I don't know how my Ethernet dropped when I'm literally wired, but um the the the question that Jordy Alexander posed um was around how like who do you kind of favor when it comes to perplexes? Like do you favor your traders or do you favor your vault u depositors and Hyperlid has continuously shown his hand to basically favor HLP over anything with Jelly Jelly Oracle exploit following into this where HLP

had a massive day. I think that they made $40 million. Um, so huge huge bump up in the expected APR. Then like other ones like lighter, they ended up uh taking a big loss on LLP. They had downtime and others had, you know, different variations. So Vance, I know you're talking a lot about kind of like the actual centralized versus decentralized exchanges, but when it comes directly to per like is there a a a right way that you think Hyperlid should like did Hyperlid handle the situation in the way that you think was the best for the platform or you know is there a right way to handle these types of situations from the purpose perspective? Um yeah, Michael, you can start.

>> We'll start. I think the bare minimum in terms of you favor traders, you favor the vaults, the bare minimum is you need to report the liquidation activity accurately, >> right? >> And Binance only reports one uh liquidation per second. So, we actually don't know how many liquidations happened on that exchange and we don't know how people were treated or how collateral was crossed. Kind of just putting up this veil of opacity and saying we did it our way and it's all good doesn't inspire confidence. And even if Hyperliquid could have favored their vaults over traders uh because they had to, at least everyone knows how the system is designed and it's transparent. You can tell how many liquidations actually happened. And there is also a systemic under reporting of liquidations because they're so bad

because they don't actually want people to know how many folks got liquidated and under what circumstances. So we need like actual answers to this stuff. Um, and that's like the first principle. After that, you can sort out who's at fault or what happened. But if we don't have the actual data, it's just like fat comply. >> Yeah. I mean, 100. It's exactly what I was going to say is that transparency ultimately is the deciding factor of who should be winning here. And it doesn't matter whether or not, you know, you favor one side or the other. You just got to disclose all the information. And I think ultimately that will be where the gravitational force pulls in terms of activity and traders and attention and then dollars. And I I think that it's just very clearly in the eyes of Hyperlquid at this point, especially in

comparison with Binance after the last three or four days. >> Yeah. All right, guys. Well, I was telling Rob earlier that our our darling XPL started the weekly candle at 1.6 and is now at 35. Where does Plasma go from here? I mean, generally, like where does this alt market go from here? I think all of crypto Twitter was pretty underwater on XPL um and was kind of just like trying to get back up and it it looked like it it was going to do it. it went back up to like 1.1 or something and then um yeah, so clearly, you know, it's it's taken a hit. Where do you guys see kind of plasma going from here? >> And this goes back to the conversation that you guys had in in the war room over the weekend once you saw the this dump occurring. It's like, okay, what

are we buying? Like what conclusions came as a result of that conversation? >> We we put out orders that that's that's what came out of that. If you're looking for what limit prices and what assets, obviously not going to tell you. >> Chill, man. That's all we're asking. >> Look, like our our first instinct is to buy and I think questions about where this or that asset goes are kind of like overdetermined >> when you have a liquidation the size literally the largest day of liquidations ever in crypto history. And uh there's a couple of good charts. One is uh Benjamin Cowan if you're looking for some some some light TA. Michael and I have have hated Benjamin Cowan for for a couple of years now because he's been

so right on ETH going down, but he's actually bullish ETH and he's also got this altcoin chart where it's like literally, you know, six years of up and then down and then it's tapping uh resistance. And so if you're looking for a chart perspective, that's probably the one I would give you. But I think also going forward the alt market is going to be bifrocated into people who are building real things and have real traction. And in the case of plasma, I think it's the fourth or fifth largest change by stablecoin. And it's really the only one that is able to disintermediate a lot of the legacy lending activity that exists on Ethereum today versus the rest of the market. And I think Michael and I have held over the years most coins that have, you know,

are worth holding. Um, but I think now we're down to probably five to seven uh that we feel good about and the rest of the market is, you know, basically bleeding to zero. >> So that's maybe not the most uplifting uh, you know, kind of commentary that I could give you, but I think it is the most realistic. >> It makes sense. >> Said there's now venture opportunities >> that are available. And even over the weekend, someone bought Athena for 12 cents. >> It's a 4x to where it is right now. So like you get back to that point that we talked about about the hardest day to invest for is is today actually it's not like when the unlocks happen or when the liquidation's clear, you need to be ready to go. Um and you need to know why

more importantly and be very choice on your asset selection. >> What I'm hearing Vance is that the revenue meta is not dead. There is >> that is just a business, >> right? >> Yes. >> Well, I don't know. I'm hearing this like the the next like in the in the telegram chats with like you know the onchain guys and stuff the next meta is the return back to the nihilism because we we swung too far to like this revenue thing. >> What I like that's that is what's being said. >> It feels like people are taking investment advice from people who consider investing in crypto the same thing as like daily fantasy sports.

>> Yeah. Those are the people that are going way out in the risk curve and they're saying I have to make it all back in one trade and the only way to do that is to further out on the risk curve. >> Also, the way the reason you lost it all in one trade was because you were all the way out on the risk curve. >> And and just to be clear, there is a huge difference between investors and traders. >> And it's all about time horizon. And if you want to really make money, the only way to do that sustainably is by investing. You can try and trade, but there's probably like two people in the world who've historically been traders that have been able to make it work.

Paul Tudtor Jones is one of them. If your name's not Paul Tudtor Jones, I don't think you're going to do it. And neither of us are like that either, >> right? Or the best thing that we can do is wait people out. Buy a lot. Wait a long time. >> If you're asking for what the market looks like in a week, I have no idea. >> In a year, I probably have a good idea. In 10 years, I I think I know where it's going. And it is just towards fundamental value. Um, but the more things like this happen where the industry seems dangerous and lawless, the less amount of flows that we will get. So, it behooves everyone to get behind Hyperlid because frankly like I think the industry needs Hyperlid as much as the as much as Hyperlid needs the industry at this point.

>> Wow. >> I I would also honestly just to go back to it, I would put Plasma in that category too. Yeah, we we are seeing both the stable coin volume on plasma just hit over a trillion dollars annualized >> and it's been around for a week. >> It's also the fourth largest blockchain in terms of stablecoin TVL. Now, one of the things that we describe is there's a separation between payment stable coins and yield coins. Yield coins are what we consider to be ultimately interesting when it comes to stable coins. Payment stable coins are maybe what Tempo is trying to do and less interesting. Um, I I would say it's really really hard to build a business where your blockchain is based around fees from payments.

Just look at Visa. You have to have that level of scale to be able to actually have a real business model. Once you have it, you have a moat. But if Tempo is really going after Visa, that's going to be hard to disintermediate. I would much rather build financial services around things that are yielding seven, eight, nine% and be able to, you know, cut a nice healthy fee on that. and and the names that got hit the hardest this weekend were the ones with the most perp open interests. >> You know, everyone literally got liquidated. And so now like the only bids that were backing it was spot. What this looks like going forward is spot bids need to rebuild prices and then you can layer on pers on top of that in terms of more leverage. But um you should be looking for high quality

assets and a spot driven rally. Um, and for everyone else who got a lot of their open interests wiped, the slate is basically wiped clean for them. Uh, and that that is a good thing. Um, you do not need this level of altcoin OI buildup. You need more fundamental spot bidding relative to the price. >> And and where does that come from? If if we're zooming out a little bit and we're we're thinking about kind of like these concentric circles of of industry buyers that have yet to come into the industry, what do you think the perception was and the reaction is from the non-cryptonative firms, institutions, and and and buyers? How do you think they're reacting to this wash out? And are are they looking at this like now

there's an opportunity to come in and pick up the pick up the scraps? Are they like this thing's fundamentally broken? It's lawless. it's still the wild west. We're we're still going to wait it out on the sidelines. >> So there there's two reactions. The first is the the people who do have the lawless reaction. Honestly, those are the flighty uh transitory kind of uninteresting participants that weren't ever really going to be staying a long time. Anyways, anyone who's actually been following this industry is probably looking at just what I described where, you know, Friday was the selloff, Saturday was the test, Sunday was the recovery. I think you could also extend that to weeks where you say, "Okay, this week was kind of like a crazy wick.

Let's see what happens next week. There might be a retest and then the week after that might be the recovery, the full recovery, maybe back to, you know, 45 4,500 ETH, you know, basically where where we were before anything. And I think that you're going to start to see institutions slowly start to get in once they can start to assemble a pretty strong case around recovery being being the narrative. And it's not going to happen. Like think about it. They they have investment committees. They've got to move cash in which takes maybe a day or two for a wire. Like they they're not they're not people, you know, like framework who can jump in, you know, 10 minutes >> and move cash around because we've got stables on chain. It's a very different process. And so they're going to take days to maybe a week or two. But those

are the ones that we're going to want to see come into the industry because they're going to be buying spot and they're going to be holding for a very long time. So the things that recover out of this I think are going to the things the things that actually really outperform going forward. So I'd be keeping my eye on what spot recoveries have uh you see in the next week. >> The the other thing I would add to that is um the last time something of this magnitude happened uh I was in Japan for the tariff tantrum. So what's really tough is when Michael and I are not physically like colllocated. Um, >> but we got to follow the sun model when he's in Japan where it's like he's waking up as I'm going to sleep. It's great.

>> You don't you don't want that. But, uh, you know, whatever. I think ETH got to like 1400. Obviously, it's a lot higher today, but uh, I was in this art gallery and there was this painting of these like two dude I haven't even shown you this yet, Michael. It's like these two dudes on this rock in the middle of the ocean and like the the storm is is like just like beating down and like the boat is like in the distance. Like it's just completely And like uh my fiance was like, "You know, you should buy that." Like it's a good representation of what today, you know what? I bought it. I shipped it back. Just like arrived at my house actually three days ago. And I think the thing that that painting means to me is like it's interesting how fast things can change. It's like you

have this huge flush. The industry is over. It's terrible. You know, you're the two dudes on the island just like storm's coming. And then now we're at like 42 4,300 and looking for new all-time highs. So, like I think there is a perspective of it's going to take a while to build back, but I think the more realistic crypto perspective is it's going to be even more violent to the upside as a result. >> Yeah. >> Have these big flushes, you have the negative funding rates, you have people trying to catch it, you have people trying to buy it, uh, because they've been waiting. Um, and so I wouldn't be surprised if this turns around just as fast as it kind of happened. But it's gonna have to be led by assets that are considered to be safe.

>> Like Tradfi is going to want to buy Bitcoin and ETH. The rest of the board, they're going to need some some price action to convince them that the markets are actually real and liquid, which I think is the long-term impact of a of a selloff like this is people are like, "What the fuck?" >> Well, it's just crazy that like the infraquality tokens literally had zero bid. Like like that is just that is like that's terrifying for anybody who is like looking at the space >> and the fact that Ethan Bitcoin didn't go down to those levels >> or soul. Yeah. >> Is a very very good thing. >> B&B is pushing new alltime highs all already today. Your your favorite coin Vince >> man favorite coin. Yeah.

>> You know this stuff this stuff happens in Trapfy too. Like also just to like level set here in 2009 in 2011. I mean, I I don't know if um anybody here remembers Night Capital. They had like they were losing like $260 million every minute and they like went bankrupt in 17 minutes or something like that. you know, like there there are massive sell-offs that happen in traditional financial markets and and granted, you know, this is like a decade ago, but also in the in the same span of time for this industry that would be like in two decades from now, we may still have like massive sell-offs and liquidation candles and but but we're just like early like the infrastructure is still getting kind of built out and I think we're still trying to decide as an

industry, are we going to lean more decentralized and have more transparency and disclosures therefore or are we going to like trust in these overseas operators? to like tell us the real numbers and like turn the lights back on when it's safe, you know, when they determine it's safe. And I I think that we're we're kind of getting smart. We're getting smarter about this. And unfortunately, you kind of have to have accidents to be able to get smarter, but like that's what this process is. And you still have them in Tradfi. It's just, you know, they're smaller scale and they don't happen as as often. >> Yeah. >> Um I was watching 60 Minutes last night.

It was obviously pre-recorded. Uh Larry Frink was on there for maybe 15 minutes. Obviously, you know, all the events of Friday happened after this recording and then they, you know, they play it live on Sunday and you know, he he basically him and the let's call him the institutional elites have adopted this debasement trade that they are now ascribing to gold and like they are like he literally just basically said just like gold crypto is an alternative and that you should have allocation like on 60 minutes made the exact you know analogy there and I think that you know our we Arthur Hayes on in Singapore, same thing. It seems like like on the like if we're zooming out to this macro level, like this debasement thing is

like really catching on with people and obviously gold's at you know 4,100 for an ounce today which is unreal. Um yeah, what what's your kind of take on this way of describing crypto to to like the boomers like is it going to work? I mean look I if you the best way of describing uh gold to someone who doesn't understand or sorry, the best way of describing Bitcoin to someone who doesn't get it is it's digital gold. And then you say, okay, well, how much of the world is on a digital platform now? You're like, okay, well, you probably need gold for that platform. It's just like the most simple basic way of putting it. But it frankly, like whatever gets the boomers on board, like I I'm I'm cool with it. and you know

they're going to they're going to have a first grade understanding of the technology and an elementary understanding of the the social aspects and community aspects. But that's fine. You know, you got Morgan Stanley coming out saying to all adviserss and keep in mind Morgan Stanley is the largest bank platform for asset management because they bought Smith Barney back in the day and and you know they're they're the biggest they said 2 to 4%. 2 to 4% is trillions of dollars. I mean it it is insane the amount of capital that could come into the market just because of that one change on advising if you go to the full aggressive 4%. It's a lot of money. And I I think that type of stuff, this type of narrative. Um, and anyone

who gets curious, you know, Stan Junk Miller had the famous line, invest investigate. You buy some Bitcoin. Maybe dig in a little bit. You're, oh, what's this? Ethereum. That seems kind of cool. Digital oil. Okay, what's this? D5 makes sense. You just pull on that thread and keep going. >> Well, it was 1%, right? Like that was the saying the last couple years. >> Zero. Well, yeah, it was zero and then it was one, but now we're getting like, okay, because even Larry Frink, all he said was like, it shouldn't be a substantial amount of your portfolio, but you should have allocation to it. And I was sitting there with my mom. She was watching. She was like because I I got her into Bitcoin and ETH quite a while ago. She was like, okay, cool. And I was like, all right, I think we're

looking >> blesses this message. >> So, it's so it's now evolved from zero to one to up to 4%. Which is a significant like shift. I mean, I I we hold a lot of Bitcoin. Um, a lot of Bitcoin. We feel good about it. Gold is going up. We think Bitcoin will catch up. There's also like, you know, a little bit of a bare case relative to ETH at the moment. Michael Sailor bought $28 million of Bitcoin yesterday. >> 28 million, brother. That size is not size.

>> His MNAV is 1.18. the realized fall of Bitcoin I think has hit like a fiveyear all-time low which is generally like how you monetize a treasury company to buy Bitcoin versus Ethereum you know basically caught up on ETF inflows BMR is buying I think they bought 100 million of ETH on Saturday which kind of like slingshoted it back up um funding rates are still negative hasn't broke an all-time high the realized vault is I think 2x higher than than what Bitcoin is >> Ben Cohen's bullet bullish.

>> Ben Cohen is bullish, which like man, >> that's kind >> Ben Cohen, just to say he said his minimum case is 5,300 ETH in in short order. >> Yeah, he's calling for 6 to 8K as like the top. We don't need to get into like the whole top calling conversation, but that's where he's like that's where his head is at, >> right? >> And and crypto Twitter owns none of it. This is kind of like the thing that sucks about having crypto Twitter on your side is like you get something like happened to ETH in 2021. Everyone was like it's the safe asset. GCR posted it's going to 10K. We got, you know, all this stuff going on. It was pretty rough few years. You should never consider your your reason for going into an asset should not be because it is safe and

consensus. That is a reason to sell an asset, not a reason to buy an asset. Um, and so seeing all of this, uh, e, even just like, oh yeah, Bitcoin's going to a million, faded comply, it's gonna happen, makes me more bullish ETH. Uh, not to call for the flipping, but like I think you probably see some ETH BTC price action on that ratio starting probably, I guess, today. Um, >> yeah, I mean, Ben Cohen was calling for like a local bottom on that ratio, which in his last video, he's, you know, he's said that we're, it's either happened or it's happening. I called Rob last night.

I was pretty hung over, absolutely dead tired. And after this whole wash out, I was like, "Dude, we got to go long ETH." And he's like, "Bro, you are absolutely just full of it right now. We are not taking leverage after what's just happened." Like, bro, we got to go long ETH bro. >> It's the best time. >> Here we are, >> Andy. That's why you're going to make it. >> There it is. Got to go long ETH. But I I think I mean if we're thinking about like the whole like you know like like that secrets of crypto thing where it's like Bitcoin, ETH, altcoins and then like it starts over. It's funny that this time it's gone way different in terms of like the way that it's happened. But we we have had the Bitcoin run and then of course like the meme

coins and such. But that aside, ETH hasn't even had its like all-time high push yet. like it hasn't had that like that moment in the sun let alone the like the reject or the rest of of the market outside of like the you know bigger winners and the kind of outperformers. So like in a way it feels like we're almost ear like still like in the earlier part of the cycle than what it seems. But then Ben Cohen saying the final rotation has begun and again I don't want to get into the top calling stuff but it it just feels like ETH hasn't had its moment. So I think I agree. I I said this to Vance probably like I don't know two or three weeks ago at this point, but uh I said, "What crypto asset which had a all-time high and then a three-year bare market, came

back to its all-time high, barely broke through its all-time high, and then basically range traded for a period of time. What crypto asset has not substantially broken through that all-time high afterwards? There's not a single one, not a single major asset has ever done that before." So ETH would be the first time that that's not happened. I don't think that that's possible, especially when you've got structural flows like Bitmine, ESBET. I mean, there's just so many catalysts. I think the narrative is pretty clear. It's just a question of when. and and like the the chart that you talked about where it's like the Bitcoin and the ETH and the altcoins like that altcoin thing that basically what that means to me is like pick a cryptocurrency at random and go

all in and you'll be rewarded. That's just obviously not how this works, right? Like we now know more about the industry than we knew one cycle ago, two cycles ago. What's working? Bitcoin, digital gold, ETH, smart contract, world computer. By the way, 90 million people own ETH. It's the second most owned crypto ass. It has native distribution. Soul I think I think is there. Um, and then outside of those, what do you have? You have the DeFi assets. You have a you have Sky, you have Athena. Those are the real actual uh businesses of this industry. Everything else assume is a zero.

>> Vance, what's your take on Pump? Are you guys are you guys bullish or bearish on Pump? Because it has all of the flows that you would look for in an asset, but it's just a memecoin launchpad like it's just in the issue with Pump. We're bullish on Pump. The issue with Pump is that if you own the token, you don't really know what you own. Do you own the cash that they generated before? On what cadence of the buyback's going to happen, are they guaranteed for how long? If hits the fan, do you get access to their treasury reserves? People are willing to pay a premium for businesses that they even perceive are well-run, but they are willing to pay a huge discount for things that they think are even a little bit sketchy >> or have clarity around what you own. I mean, it doesn't even need to be like

well-run or or, you know, fine-tuned operations. It's just like if you know that the cash flows that are generated in excess of costs are going to flow to the token, that's great. And it's checked through governance. Tokens have governance rights. the less that you have around that, the less clarity and and control that you have around that, the less valuable that asset will be. >> It does feel different than hype. Like hype has very clear, it's a very programmatic kind of schedule, whereas pump, it just you just don't really know. >> What what if what if Jeff one day was like, you know what, for today's fees, I'm gonna put half in the in this treasury company that I control.

>> Yeah. No, I hear you. >> Also, what do you think would happen if someone that ran a public company did that? That person would literally be in jail. >> Yeah. So like what what is the issue gra what does the industry grapple with today? A lack of robust disclosures >> and frankly we have enough businesses that are wellrun to have those things be big companies but we still struggle with even basic things like can we all get in the right gap accounting standards. You have one platform defining fees as revenue and revenue is fees and nobody discloses costs. How how are you even supposed to sort top to bottom on what to buy? Like I think Sky is the best in the industry at doing this. This is why uh you know we're just such huge bulls

on it is because every single dollar is accounted for and there's programmatic guarantees about what goes where. Everything else you there's a there's like a huge leap of faith that you need to take. Uh and you know plasma is doing quarterly you know uh kind of disclosures and and plans and road mapping similar to an earnings call. Same with syrup. Sky have has it by the block. Um, but this is an industry issue that we need to actually grapple with and solve. >> So, as you guys are thinking through the thesis for these companies, is it essentially like these companies that already have, for lack of a better term, their together. These are the ones with the highest chance of survival and therefore those are the ones that really

meet the criteria as we converge Trady and DeFi. >> Correct. >> Yep. I mean, look, if you don't have any business and you're disclosing a whole lot of nothing, you know, you're not going to go anywhere. But there are some now opportunities that look almost like Carvana back in the day, like that type of upside reflexivity where if you were a traditional company, you would be valued an order of magnitude higher. And I think a lot of these DATs are trying to kind of square the circle um by taking their tokens effectively public. But again, you need that real gap earnings to to actually make that a reality. It can't just be inflation.

>> And for in the sense that it went down 99%, there were kind of like questions around what it was doing, if the business was even, you know, survivable or or going concern. And and for anyone who was really paying attention, it it was, you know, it ended up being like a a 50x from there. It came all the way back to whatever 100x. Um but I I think broadly um the other thing that I would say is and and this is something that we've learned over the you know years of investing in framework. You can have a really awesome opportunity at like a $20 million valuation and or you can have you know a a bigger opportunity um maybe at a 200 or a $2 billion valuation. But if you have an operational um

operationally excellent team and you've got a much bigger market, it's way more creative to buy at the higher valuation for the brand name for the things that's working because the size of the market is probably far underestimated. And you you may say, "Oh, well, if this thing just gets to that level, then it's a 10x and we can sell it and it's great." The bigger opportunities somehow have a much bigger opportunity for you. >> Yeah. >> And and so that's what I would say. the winners are just going to keep on winning. And that's where, you know, in this market is going to be dispersion where the big things that we all have been talking about on this on this pod today are going to be the ones that keep on winning. Well, so Crypto Yield Info, one of my favorite OG DeFi uh guys, you

know, was probably one of the biggest whales on like year and these types of things been following for so long. And he put out a tweet today was more or less around, okay, like maybe synthetics, this per thing that they're doing now is going to reignite this kind of like OG DeFi trade and like linked a he was like, I think that like perpex trade may be kind of slowing down or over. And so, you know, I just kind of want to give you guys a bit of an insight into like where my head was at for the last month with this hyperlquid trade was this thing ran to 60. You know, Rob and I had limits from like 52 to 60. I pulled them up. He's he's in my ear the last three weeks like, "You're an absolute for pulling our our limits up." I mean, it was a small part

of the position, but and I was actually with Chris Berniski and he was like, "Brother, you're flying too close too close to the sun here." And he sent us like some iicarious philosophy thing. Anyhow, >> yeah. So that happened all the while lighter variational osteium uh Pacifica. All of a sudden crypto Twitter went from like hyperlquid bulls to like perex bulls airdrop farming. And of course you live by the sword and you die by the sword. You get all of the the the hyperlquid you know farmer defi people on per dexes and then you liquidate a ton of them in this on Friday.

>> Really sad. again. Nothing to like be, you know, you know, bragging about if you didn't, etc. You know, shit's, you know, serious. But now I'm calling Rob and I'm like, dude, I'm gonna start pers farming. Like, I think it's a great time. Oi is down in half. I'm a hyperlquid bull, but lighter TG is coming at the end of the year. I think they'll they should be able to trade at least 1/4 of Hyperlid's market cap. Then you got Pacifica, etc., etc., etc. And so I think my question to you guys is like what is with your hyperlquid thesis how do you kind of reason about these other purpose platforms getting traction uh in terms of like OI in terms of volume and uh you know do you think it's a decent time to actually jump into like some of the purpose farming stuff? So,

so it's not it's not the exact same comp, but let me like analogize this to maybe like social media back in the day. Um, because what you had was all these competitive social media platforms starting basically at the same time. And you had billions of dollars of venture capital money chasing after these same, you know, companies. But in reality, the best thing that you could possibly do as an investor is invest in the $15 billion Facebook round, which seemed like the most expensive crazy thing you could possibly do at that time because they didn't make any money. And and I think that is where we're kind of and very different in many different ways, but but you can kind of think of it in the same way in that you're you're talking about a network of users that are generating revenue. they're providing a

business and you do often trade, you know, the the second tier, the third tier because it's so much cheaper than, you know, that tier one. But in reality, the best thing you can do is just buy the tier one because the size of the opportunity that we're talking about here isn't like does hype go to 100. We're talking about $500 to $1,000. Like that's the size that we're talking about of the TAM if everything is successful. And over time you start to add, you know, it it's not just a per stacks, you know, we're obviously going to see a stable coin and stable coin competitions which are going to generate a ton of revenue. We're going to see what hip 3 ends up doing, maybe even hip four with prediction markets. Who knows? But the the idea is if you have all these things coales around the same thing that's

already winning, the outcome is just much larger. And if you want to do a farm, you know, lighter aster or try to get, you know, some some air drops, that's great, but it's sort of like, okay, well then what do you do? And we do have a unique opportunity in crypto to go off and farm and have that be accreative to our core positions. It's a it's a great staking mechanism that earns you yield. Um but I I still think you have to question, you know, what are you doing with that and and how are you aligned? What's your long-term investment versus what's your short-term, you know, trade? >> Michael, I think your time horizon is a little bit different than Andy's.

>> Yeah, there's a paycheck to paycheck. uh >> this guy. >> Look, if you're going to farm, make sure you're shorting ETH, okay? >> Yeah, for sure, buddy. >> Make sure you're >> I mean, isn't it just biblical that that we get all of crypto Twitter farming per stexes that, as Michael was saying, are, you know, going to be secondary or tertiary to the winner here and then the whole thing just gets wiped. It's just it's just >> I mean but this I don't want to say that this is always going to happen but when you have people onboarding into per platforms that they don't really understand and they and you can run up huge on purpose like we know people who made hundreds of millions of dollars just being like 5x long you know something for a few years but that like

as soon as that happen it's like as easy it is easy it is to lose um and so like the flash crash was always going to be how people got taken out if they got taken But I mean, I think people should be searching for more answers than they're currently being given about why this happened. Um, because it's not just like all good in my mind. >> If you lose $40 billion, someone obviously made some fraction of that. >> Um, and and like the refunds I I think are like a pittance in terms of what people actually lost.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So when we're thinking about this, you know, generally it's a PB PVP landscape where especially on these purpose platforms, we have longs equal shorts. If all these if all these people got liquidated, say that say there was 5,000 to 10,000 people that got liquidated. How that money ended up in the hands of how many people would you say? Just estimate like is it one, is it five, is it 10? Like there's an order of magnitude less that we've now consolidated that amount of capital into. These are very dangerous questions that you're asking. I don't have the answers to them unfortunately, but doors locked >> no more than 10 to 100 people probably.

Yep. >> And how many lost? You know, tens of thousands, >> thousands, orders of magnitude more. And so, you know, it it was also interesting hearing you describe your your thesis for a valuable company and how the market cap is somewhat irrelevant. It it's essentially down to the industry standards that they're reporting. It's down to the the the GAP accounting principles that they're using and it doesn't and I again I the market cap is somewhat irrelevant because if you look at the largest exchanges and the largest companies that actually you could say have product market fit they might be bigger but they don't adhere to the principles and the standards that you're describing. And so you're you're describing this flipping essentially that

>> I I think um if if something is working and has fundamentals, like Michael knows this, I will just refuse to sell it. >> Like fundamentals may not be a reason why you can convince someone who's doing like daily fantasy sports gambling to go buy your altcoin, but it sure is a reason why people will not sell. And why that matters is because in a market like it is today for altcoins where VC overhang is real. And basically what you have with VCs is they're selling coins to give back money to LPs to get more money to buy more coins. It's kind of a round trip but um this is just like outflow tape. This is what it looks like when an industry is losing actual bidding. To bring bidding back into the equation, you do need the VCs to be

recapitalized. But I think they're going to need a lot more than just faith to buy tokens that are on the open market today. And even though people like maybe Hyperlid's a little bit like overvalued relative to fundamentals, but like we think it can obviously go much higher because we have programmatic guarantees about where the revenue and fees are going. We're okay holding it. We're okay even buying more because we know that that will always be the case. If someone is not telling us, you know, what's going on or there's not real revenue or real traction, uh why would we hold that token? like that difference. There's there's varying degrees of this as well where like if you have uh you know a monthly call with a team and they're like here's our report, here's what we're doing. It's great to get those kind of check-in moments. That's level

one. Level two is like you've got a website and I can go to it any day of I want and just check and see what the numbers are, see what the trends are. I can get the digest. It's great. that there's that and then there's like governance guarantees where it's like it's 97% or whatever you whatever the revenue metric is for Hyperlid you know you're you're taking that and for you to change that you got to do a vote on chain with all the different validators that's like transparency plus guarantees that you know we're on calls with our LPs who have absolutely zero idea about anything going on in crypto except for a few things one of them Bitcoin digital gold ETH really picking up steam and hype is just printing cash. Like those

are the three things that endowments in the United States, pension funds, like that they know about crypto right now. And so how does how do how does that third one get into the narrative? The third one gets into the narrative based off of all the trust, all the reliability, all the transparency, but then everything else on chain and everybody's talking about it and and so like if you can break through that, you have a shot of being the size of Hyperlid. If you don't, you don't. you won't. And yeah, I think governance guarantees is is really really strong. >> Yeah.

>> Earlier on the stream today, I told Andy, uh, I think the most dangerous thing that could happen to Hyperlid is that Trump pardons CZ because CZ has a vendetta for Hyperlid. Do you guys think that there's some some possibility of Binance entering the US market and them leveraging that to be a detriment to Hyperlid? as we just talked about there. Look, we're talking about centralized decentralized. It's it's not it's not like who's got more. It's the same thing. It's an apples to apples comparison. It's like it's apples to oranges. And every single time we have a weekend like we just saw, that difference becomes more and more pronounced.

>> When when you're when you're already transparent, there's no skeletons in the closet. That's like what's great about running a transparent pro protocol, a transparent fund. Like do your worst, get pardoned, whatever. like there's nothing that's going to really materially change. Um, in my mind, I think there will be some ramifications for Hyperlquid from this weekend. Just like the sheer amount of open interest that came off, it will take a while to build back. Um, it's also quite tragic that a lot of the most rich Hyperlid customers got liquidated in the process. So, there will be a rebuilding period, but I think, you know, the exchange will be a lot stronger for it. They will probably deploy HLP liquidity differently. that will probably have different

relationships with market makers or how they treat their vaults. If you've ever seen that photo of the plane that gets like shot a bunch in World War II and then they patch up all the bullet holes and like that's kind of those areas are actually the safer areas. I kind of think of that in the same way as Hyperlid today. And I do think there's also ramifications for the centralized exchanges. I I think the use case of a lot of these synthetic dollars is margin is probably done and and like the use case of like soul that got bridged to BNB that's then put on an exchange and used to trade against like random who knows what coins that's probably done too.

>> Yeah. >> And maybe those funds are done as well. Like and I and I think that is kind of there's some protocols that really prioritize growth at all costs, but like what you don't realize is like there's that one day every once in a while where like it's just over. >> Yeah. It's the It's the life It's the life of a turkey, >> right? Thanksgiving goes with trading persp Thanksgiving's coming up, Vance. >> Yeah, I know. Canadian Thanksgiving, I think. >> Not not Canadian. >> Yeah, we're doing that early. Um, but like here here's my two cents on the whole thing. When you're running up video game money on pers, that is when you should consider selling some.

When you have a $70 million unrealized P&L that goes to zero, your life is forever changed. Not in a good way. There's no enlightenment coming from that. You're just pissed. >> Yeah. >> So, so don't do that. >> You guys got your uh Monad cards. >> Oh, man. Gonad. >> I think we just got a couple minutes. Um yeah, so the airdrop claim is tomorrow. >> Uh it's going to be a unique claim. I have zero intel. Um, not sure if you guys have heard anything. I I anticipate them doing something where you got to interact in some capacity within the community, maybe on the test net or basically like airdrops and crypto have gone from like you know the easiest thing being like you don't even got to

do anything. It just gets sent to your wallet to all the way to like these kind of like intricate uh you know processes. But I think the community has pretty high expectations for monad. Uh we didn't do any rounds unfortunately. I DM' K for like a KL round back in the day and he just ghosted me but that's life. Um, I think this thing could trade >> about it. >> I just think could could have a plasma- like trade like uh launch and trade 10 bill plus and be a big airdrop. And I think it could be like a little bit of a golden moment for like like you know we're looking for monad and mega eth launches here basically. I think from the from the chain perspective and it seems like monad's going to come first and probably bigger.

>> No no no view on on either. I think both are good. I I would say if you're going to buy by spot, if I could impart one lesson from the past weekend, just buy spot. Especially for very recently launched assets. >> Yeah. Yeah. Gents. Um I think the moral of today's podcast or or the the sum is Jeets out, Chad's in. Um guys, stay strong out there. Stay off the leverage tickers and uh I'll see you at all time highs. >> I'll see you at all time highs. There we go. We'll end it on that. Thanks, guys.

>> All right, boys. Cheers. Easy. Enjoy. >> See you next time. >> Have a good day. >> All right, Rob. Well, I mean, how do you come off of that not super bullish? >> I'm just thinking DJ Ping. >> All right. What's ETH doing here? >> 115 or 511. >> Oh, man. I'm tired. I I'm g have to sign off. Let's see. ETH 4260, man. Bitcoin 116. Wow. Wow. Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's It's going, dude. I don't know what happened. I I'm literally wired up and I lost Wi-Fi. That's like a That's crazy. >> Came back pretty quick. >> Bitcoin's breaking out to new local highs on the 4 hour. I mean, I'm I'm definitely no TA god, but soul's at 207. Hype pushing 42. >> Um I mean, these wicks are going to go down as like biblical wicks. Like these these wicks are just like I mean uh I've never seen anything like it. Like you know you know what's funny is like the meme over the weekend was Adam went to zero. Like Cosmos went to zero. Of course Adam got picked on. Like it's just I mean it's just they never get they they're always getting singled out, bro.

>> Oh my goodness. Guys, stay safe out there. >> Stay safe. Stay comfy and spot. And we'll see you guys tomorrow. Peace.