Rollup TV: Base, Vaneck and Stabled Up EP #2

Transcript

Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. N. Ah, [Applause] [Music] Welcome back to the Rollup TV, baby.

It's Wednesday, September 24th. I'm Andy, your host. Robbie will be joining us shortly. He is just wrapping up some stuff in Korea. Believe he is literally in a taxi uh getting home as we speak cuz we've got Jesse from base up next. Stoked on that. Our first guest of the day, we are going to be revealing our mini app. Uh it'll be very exciting. If you guys can't tell, I am live on my Twitter account today for the first time in a while. Shout out to our Twitter gurus behind the scenes. I don't know if the feed's actually pulling, but it's good experiment going on. Um, I see that

I am live, but I don't see the actual video quite yet. We are trying new stuff here today. Um, see how this rolls. Uh, yeah. So, guys, welcome back to Roll TV. Uh, stoked to be here and to be with you guys today. Um, Leo, I'm just going to end up killing my broadcast and we'll we'll figure out tomorrow why it wasn't picking up the actual feed. Um, someone's going to kill that. You can kill yours and I'll stick to the main program. Yeah, guys. Uh we got Jesse from Bass today going live talking about all things Bass app control the stream.

We have officially partnered with Bass and Koshi yesterday. So we'll be bringing Kaly's prediction markets into the Bass app at some point. We're bringing KI's prediction markets into the stream on Rollup TV imminently and we will have the ability to make this work for everybody. So, yeah, I'm stoked. It should be fun. Uh, let's get fired up. Let's get Jesse in the house and we'll get Robbie in as well. I believe Robbie is nearly ready to go. Really big day. The market's bouncing back a bit. Looks a little slow. We'll see what happens. I'm feeling good about it, though. I think I think that was a

good flush. And, you know, we'll see where we go from here. Institutional appeal in crypto is absolutely firing right now. Tether's looking to raise at a$500 billion dollar valuation. So overall, just a really, really, really good time to be in crypto. Like I said, Rob's coming on. He'll be around. He's going to be on this Jesse segment. I'm going to give him another minute or two. Get get in here, get going. And yeah, guys, shout out to us for the uh, you know, Khi big deal base announcement as well. Alrighty, guys. Let's get Jesse up here. We're We're gonna get Rob up with him and let's get firing. Welcome back

to Rollup TV. Welcome to Control the Stream. We're going to show you guys all about it right now. Let's get Jesse up with Robbie and let's get him going. Here we go. Jesse Pollock, welcome to the Roll TV, man. Big day for us. Good to have you on. >> Glad to be here. Thanks for having me, guys. >> We're unveiling control the stream today. Robbie, you are our stream controller of the day. as if you were calling in as a fan and audience member. We've been building behind the scenes. Look at that. Tips coming in. >> The tips are rolling in. >> Robbie, give us the backstory, man. You went to base camp. You've been working with Brad and the team. How'd this come about? And then Jesse and and the three of us can go back and forth and unveil some of these features.

>> Yeah, happy to. Well, it started long before Base Camp without Jesse's knowledge. uh someone on our team um named Zach who's been helping us for a little while uh introd on base. That is what I know for sure. And he does a really great job of curating creators. He has a history at Tik Tok. So he reached out to us. He was like, "Hey guys, um you guys are really good at what you do. You like to stream. This is recently after we had started the rollup TV. How can we work together?" And we we basically explained our vision to close the gap between fans and creators to really build a a platform in which fans and creators were

able to connect and we as creators were able to see what our fans wanted to what they wanted to see um and have them closer to us and and really get that that two-way interaction. So we started ideating we we kind of rough scoped out what these features could look like and he was like, "Hey, you know, this makes a ton of sense. um we would support this in the form of a builder grant. So we got a builder grant and we actually just used all of that to uh spend on resources and engineering and developers to ultimately build out control the stream. The guys at builder garden helped build this out on a technical front and so that's what you guys see today. Um, then after we had some MVP, I went to base camp. Absolutely tremendous conference by the way, Jesse. I mean, I

don't know, there's probably a whole event production team at Coinbase, but it was just one of the best most thoughtful and and well-curated events that I had been to. When there was panels, everyone was at the panels. When there was other things to do, everyone was doing other things. It was just a beautiful place. It was Vermont. There was really not much else going on. Everyone was just 100% focused on the conference. And and so we demoed this mini app at the workshop at Base Camp and everyone loved it and and it was essentially all anyone would ever need to go live and and run a stream on bass in a in a very onchain forward way.

So it got me fired up. We're just we're we're just getting started. We just have a few plugins now. And so that's kind of what we're here to talk to you about. Talk talk to you about the streaming economy. Talk to you about bass and uh show you why we're so fired up. >> I love it. And I I'm fired up too and I'm glad you had an awesome time at base camp. That was my experience as well. And you know when you guys came to us and said, "Hey, here's here we want to do some streaming stuff. You know, we think streaming is going to be a huge part of the the onchain economy." And we're kind of in the like let's let's go make it happen across a bunch of different places. And you know, y'all have been building a a brand and a

stream and uh no better people to figure that kind of stuff out than people who are doing it every single day. And so I'm super fired up about this. Um, I'm seeing some tips are rolling in. Uh, and excited to, you know, see how you guys roll this out, uh, with your community and how people do more stuff on chain with streaming. >> Yeah. And so, as as you may know, we go live pretty much every day, Monday through Friday. We're live for a few hours. And so, don't mind me if I'm on my phone because I'm actually using the remote control that all of our fans can use. And that that's the whole concept here is that we have the TV show. You're on the TV show. Welcome to the rollup TV. And everyone at home has their remote control and they can literally

control what happens on the stream. And Jesse, we our imagination is the limit here. I am so fired. Like I'm excited to get creative with these plugins because I can imagine people doing absolutely ridiculous things and having a lot of fun doing it. for instance, like auctioning off the ability to come on the stream, the ability to ask questions, play music, put tweets up on the screen, like do all kinds of things as they're using the remote control, make make clips, make cuts, make memes and gifts, launch tokens as a result of what they see on the stream. All of that is within the realm of possibilities here. And so one of the ones that we're most excited about is actually and by the way after

Jesse's stream we're gonna we're gonna go to Lemon who was from Builder's Garden. He helped build all this out and it'll really be live. We'll be live. Everyone can use it right now. >> Yeah. And so >> let's see it. Rob, let's see the uh tips rolling in. >> Your favorite one. >> Oh my favorite one. All right. And I'm I'm curious to hear Jesse's thoughts about this. So, we've got what we call the bull bear meter, also known kind of a sentiment meter. And so, what we've got here is the ability to pop up uh a prompt on the screen. For instance, will the base app go let's say, let's go, let's go big or go home. Will the

base app be a top 10 app in the app store >> by end of year? That's good. >> Really big, Jesse. >> All right, we'll put it up for >> I'm ready. >> All right, we confirm in the base app. Do a little Touch ID. Super easy flow. There's a little maybe a little one, two second delay. >> Yep. >> And then we'll see it. >> And so you'll see it on the stream. Will base app be top 10 in the app store by the end of the year?

>> Yeah. This isn't just showing up >> bull post >> bull sentiment either spam work to do to be fair. We got work to do but I you know I'm I'm always an optimist. >> So we got a QR code here Rob where you could scan in and vote directly on the base app from your base account. And the goal here is to to encourage as many people as possible to come use the base app when interacting with the show. We want to drive people to the base app. Download the base app. U the base app get rewarded by using the base app. We actually just announced Khi yesterday, uh, which is going to be our official prediction markets partner. Imagine a world where we integrate KHI. You know, they're still kind of offchain, but we can bring some of their market

onchain, do it on on the base app. You see tips rolling in. Jesse's fired up. This is the MVP. >> I love it. It's an awesome MVP. And I think I think the thing that this really shows is just like the power of when you bring together live streaming with this programmable platform that we're building on base. It's like you literally can make it so that um the the people who are part are watching the stream can participate in the stream. And not only can they participate in like simple ways like a vote, which I think is cool, but then they're also going to be able to participate in like more complex ways like, you know, building a complex money system basically of like, you know, stake some money on your vote. That's like, you know, one tap away. Or um you know, like place a live prediction, that's one tap

away. like the the money platform that we built on base is like purpose-built for this kind of interactive engaging experience that y'all are are kind of designing here. >> Yeah, Jesse. So we have this broad kind of view here that the real-time nature of streaming with the kind of compressed attention spans as well as the desire for for short-term or for short form content uh as as well as feeling closer to your you know host or to your person of choice that you want to listen to is very important. How do you view onchain allowing us as creators to get closer to our fans to our audience? I know we've shown this, but maybe more broadly, holistically, what is your thesis on

onchain being this gap or or the bridge between the fans and the uh creators? >> Yeah, you know, I I think we've said from the beginning that we think onchain is going to be kind of the next generation of the creator economy. And there's two big reasons for it. One is that um you know, on the monetization side, when you look at the creator economy today, the the thing that makes the internet work is creativity. It's from all of us. But when it actually comes to the money that's made from that creativity, 95% of it is going to these big platforms. And so creators are basically getting cut out. Um, and onchain creators can can earn like it it flips. You basically have 95% of the value going directly to creators which is a whole new kind of like experience.

The the other thing that we think is really radically different is in the web two world like you're in someone else's walled garden. They control your graph. They control who you can talk to. they control what connection you have to your fans versus onchain because it's this open platform because you own your content you can have that direct relationship. So if you want to design a new way of engaging with fans exactly like you guys have done that's not something where it's like oh god like we need to go get some big centralized platform on on board. It's like no we can literally build it or there's going to be other people who build it for us and then we can plug it in. And I think that ability to just like own your own relationship is going to be something that so many creators like have a aha

moment on where they're like, "Wow, this is 10 times better. You're telling me that I earn 10 times more and I can be 10 times more connected and all of that can enable me to build 10 times better experiences for my fans. Of course, I'm going to stream on chain. Of course, I'm going to post on chain." And so I think it's very early days and it's people like y'all who are kind of here at the early days pioneering trying to figure out how do we kind of like put all these pieces together in a way that clicks. But once it clicks and I think we're close, we're going to be off to the races because it is that much better. >> Yeah. We we like to think of ourselves as uh one of the most innovative media companies in crypto, the fastest growing media company in crypto. And and this

technology and this platform is part of how we showcase that. This is something I said at the demo in Base Camp. Twitch does not have this. Kick does not have this. Rumble does not have this. This is all on Bass. And this is all because Bass is a platform in which you can build things. It's meant for developers and and to build apps that are currently not possible anywhere else. >> Yeah. And I think the kind of crazy thing about it is that you guys like built this, you know, not quite nights and weekends, but like it's the it's like a side project that you guys have done over the last few months to like bring about a vision that you had. And that that like the fact that the bar like the the the the ability for y'all to do that is like such a statement

about what's possible right now. It's like you have an idea and then you can bring it to life. And it's not something where it's like you need to go raise millions of dollars and you need to go like invent a whole totally new technology platform. It's like no like literally you can dream it and then you can make it happen and you can do that like nights and weekends. You can do it as a experiment for the stream. Like you can just make that happen. It's awesome. >> Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Jesse, I'm curious about your perspective of the actual mini apps within the base app. Right. So Rollup TV controller stream is now a prominent mini app. It's featured on the base app. Obviously, these feature sets are exclusively available on the base app.

>> What is the vision for supporting creators and supporting up and cominging businesses who want to build onchain, who want to build on base, you know, featuring them on the app as mini apps? I is there a is there a broader bigger picture vision that you have for the mini apps? Jessecoin to a trillion. >> We're just having fun now. >> My creator coin's coming. I I'll just tell everyone like I'm working on it. I'm working on it. You know, I want to make sure I do it right, but I believe every creator is going to have a coin. And uh I'm I'm not afraid to go out there and make it happen for myself. And of course, it's, you know, a little slower, but um uh we're going to do it.

And you know, I don't know if we'll go to a trillion, but I'm excited to I'm excited to just continue kind of like breaking down barriers for people and normalizing the fact that it's okay for creators to earn in the new economy. That's like not okay, that's great. >> I'm bullish. And and the denominator is going to zero, so who knows? the numerator could go to a trillion. And so, so Jesse, one of like a very, you know, on a more serious note, one of the things that I I went to Base Camp thinking was >> is like about this creator coin economy. Andy and myself, we're creators. You're a creator. Like, >> we've been bouncing ideas like how to do this, right? Is there a reality? We don't want to ruin our reputation. We don't want to come off as shortsighted.

We've been doing this for five years. Like, how do we properly do this thing? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my my take on this is that where we're heading is is creator capital markets where where creators will have coins, where content will be, you know, valued in the free market with coins as well. Um, I think we're in this kind of transitionary period right now where two things are true. One is that there's still a lot of stigma on this. Um, and, you know, think back to where we were like six months ago when when we first started talking about creator coins and people were telling me like, "What are you talking about creator coins? Everything is a memecoin." And I got so much for saying no, like actually you guys, like they're different things. And so I think like that transitionary period of people

realizing, oh wow, coins are this powerful tool that can be applied to these different segments from a tokenization perspective. And creators are going to be a massive segment because creators are one of the lifebloods of our global economy. Um, I think that's the first shift that's happening right now. And I think I think the second shift that's happening right now is people are realizing that if you just have like a creator coin that doesn't actually do anything, like that's not a recipe for success either. Like you can't just like yeet out the creator coin and then be like, "Okay, now that's just going to work." No, like it actually has to be integrated into the the journey and life cycle of the creator. And this is why I'm so excited about, you know, this experiment that you guys are running here. I'm so excited about the stuff that Zora is

doing where they're actually figuring out how do you integrate the creator coin into the way creators work. So, you know, here it's like you guys are going to be able to use the the coin to token gate participation on the stream. Are you gonna be able to use it for for staking for prediction markets? You're going to be able to use it for voting. You're going to be able to use it for tipping. Like that's a ton of sources of demand for the creator coin. You know what Zora has been saying is like what's the biggest source of demand for the creator coin? It's actually your content. And so by pairing the creator coin to each content coin, every time someone buys a piece of content, consumes it, that's actually driving demand for your creator coin. And so where I expect this to go is like you guys will do a stream. It'll

have all of this interactivity around the creator coin that you can do in there. Then that stream will end. It will get coined as an asset and then people will clip all of that stream that will all get paired back to the creator coin and everything will drive value back to their creator coin. And so I think this to me is kind of like the next frontier is like we've we've basically normalized this idea in certain segments, but there's still a ton of stigma. We have to push through that and then in order to push through that we need to bring more and more of this like real utility and real value acral mechanisms to the creator coins such that creators can do what they love create and then they can have that value that they're creating acrew back to their underlying coin.

>> I love it. I mean that that that answers a lot of the the kind of questions and just kind of hesitancy that that I've had. It's just been like, okay, there's a there's a right way to do this and there's a wrong way to do this. And I think you're kind of depicting the evolution of creator coins and and it feels like we're we're we're getting ready to take that next step where, you know, I think I've seen some podcasts do like, you know, some buybacks with ad revenues, for example, very kind of like baseline thing. But if there's a way that this could be integrated into the stream, into base app, into the interactions, then it becomes almost like a, you know, in the future, I think there'll be there'll be a stable coin for Starbucks and Walmart will have their own stable coin, but it'll all

kind of come together. But this is just like the rollup coin or the rollup kind of form of currency if you're participating in our economy. >> So yeah, Jesse, any kind of further suggestions or thoughts as to how to properly think about building this flywheel, you know, are are very much appreciated. Yeah. Well, the the first thing I'll say is that um I think that like your your intuitive feeling that you want to do this in the right way is the correct intuition, right? Like people coming and like saying, "Hey, I'm just going to like yeet this out and like not really think about it and I'm just going to make money as a result of it." Like that's not going to lead to a good outcome. And I think that we've seen a little bit honestly of that over the last few weeks where it's like

people have gotten burned a little bit and they feel like, "Oh, this actually isn't working for me." because there has been this like almost exttrinsic motivator of like the north stars to make money rather than the north stars to figure out like how do I use this technology to do the thing that I love better which over time will make me money and I think that that's the first thing is like what I'm seeing is that the the people who are thinking best about this are the people who are intrinsically motivated and who are saying I love streaming or I love posting I love creating and I want to figure out how do I use this new technology to do that better and to make it so that I can do that thing even more and over time that's going to lead to a good outcome for me. Uh and so I think

that that mindset of like doing it right, being here for the long term, being intrinsically motivated is super super core to what's going to make this successful. And I love that you guys are thinking that way. And I'll just say like any creators out there who also think that way, come talk to me. Like I want to help you do this the right way. That's literally my whole thing. It's what we've said on about Bass from the beginning. It's the the ethos that Coinbase has brought from the beginning is like we're gonna do it the right way and maybe it'll take a little bit longer and maybe we'll miss out on the like short-term retention spike fads, but in the long run it's going to lead to better outcomes. So that's the first thing.

>> The second thing that I'll say is that um it is going to be emergent, right? Like we are going to figure this out like in real time a little bit. And so, you know, I I think the the the the flip side of doing it the right way is you could interpret that in a in a way where it's like doing it the right way means we need to like maximally figure everything out upfront. And like I think that's where you end up getting into like, oh, like in order for the creator coin to work, you need to like have the revenue streams go back to the creator coin and like we need all of this like off-chain complexity to make that happen. And my intuition is that um these value acrruel mechanisms will be a little bit more emergent than that. Like people will launch creator coins and

maybe they'll have one or two value acral mechanisms and then over time more will be layered in, right? So you'll have clipping and those will get paired. You'll have the the live stream use cases, those will work. You'll have, you know, ad revenue that starts to like funnel back and that kind of like mechanism is going to kind of gradually emerge over time. And I don't think that that's necessarily an environment for every creator to kind of like get started. But I do think that for creators who are independent, who are uh uh excited about being at the frontier, um being a little bit comfortable with that emergent reality and saying, "Hey, like I know that I'm doing this right because that is my intention, but that doesn't mean I have to have it all figured out." I think that that's going

to be the sweet spot where you're going to see a lot of people who bring those things those two things together and basically like pave the way for everyone else. And that's been my ethos personally of like I'm a creator. Like I'm I'm a builder, but like I'm also a creator. Like you could you guys see me on Twitter, you see me on Instagram, Tik Tok, and Zora. Like I'm trying my best out here to create. And I feel like I have a duty to like live a little bit in this this this gray space because I feel like me figuring out in real time is going to help the rest of the industry figuring out in real time. And I think that like folks like y'all and many others also um you know can play a really important role in kind of like helping us work through this emergent

reality to get to kind of like better and better tools for creators to make these things a part of their livelihood. Um, and so again, I'll just say like super grateful for all of the the work that you guys are doing pushing the boundaries and um, for other creators who want to be pushing the boundaries too, but want to be pushing boundaries with creativity in a based way that feels right and authentic to them that has a long-term perspective. Like, I'm here to help you. Um, and we want to make it so that there's a safe space for you to do that experimentation. That safe space is going to happen on base. >> Yeah, it will. And and Jesse, just be before you go, I just want to really emphasize one of the things you said is that you feel like you have this duty.

You're compelled to figure it out so that others can also learn from your figuring it out process. This is a a a core tenant of what we do here at the rollup. Our core virtue is this curiosity that drives us. We're cur we're genuinely curious when we're talking to people. We're trying to learn ourselves because we have a thirst for knowledge. We want to go out. We want to learn things. We also want people to come back and learn from us and therefore it it does create this symbiotic flywheel that ends up acrewing value for everyone. It creates this abundance mindset. And so all that to say, thank you for creating base. Thank you for coming on the show and helping us figure out this process, figuring out your own process and teaching us to teach others. It it's really what this is all about.

>> Yeah. Well, thank you guys. Um excited to do it and it's still day one. We got a lot of work to do. Um, we definitely haven't figured it all out, but I think if we all show up with this attitude of like we're going to do things the right way, we're going to take risks, but in in the direction of learning, we're gonna be able to get a lot of good done in the world. >> See you on the timeline, man. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'll be back next time. Thanks for >> Wow. Creator. >> Absolutely insane. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah, that was nuts.

>> Wow. >> I mean, he literally said he was going to launch a creator coin. It's just a matter. It's not if, it's when. It's just a matter of time. >> Wow. Wow. Wow. Dude, I wish I wish I could get the uh I wish we had 10 more minutes just to talk to him about that. >> Yeah, for real. I think we've got um our >> That's crazy. >> our head chef. >> That's crazy. >> Jesse's Jesse's the head chef of the base app. Leone is the head chef of the mini app. So, we're gonna we're gonna get into it.

Wow, that is crazy. Yeah. Um, there was tons more that he said and there's a lot to unpack there, but generally like huge takeaway is that they're going all Bass is going all in. Coinbase is going Coinbase is going all in on base. Bass is going all in on streaming. And you know, if you couple this what with what we heard from the syndicate founder last week or maybe earlier this week, the the listing process on Coinbase is becoming decentralized >> to Aerome.

And so what you can see here is that all of the creator coins that Bass is is working so hard to support and launch, all of these end up getting listed on Coinbase, like v Coinbase. >> And they've basically taken this this business model that has worked for them for so long in listings, and they've said, you know what, we actually believe in the onchain economy and the onchain ecosystem for several verticals. We're gonna put aside our listing business and we're just gonna launch all of these coins as if they were listed and they don't have to spend anything and they get distriution and liquidity of like 160 million users, billions of dollars in trading volume.

>> Crazy. >> It's insane. So good. So good. So good. Yeah. We got Leone up next. What a what a 24h hour period here for the boys. >> Yeah. Lemon's Lemon is just a stud. Honestly, Lemon is a man. Leone helped to put this together. >> We're going to get him up. He's behind the scenes now. We're going to get him up on >> in just a moment. >> I'm stoked, >> dude. I can't believe >> because uh >> Lemon can explain this app in a way that I think is going to make sense to a lot of people. Obviously, we're coming at it from the creator perspective, but Lemon is going to be able to share things about the process of building this out

and seeing it from a builder's perspective as well as a viewers's perspective and just generally from a few different angles. I'm I'm I I shared the floor with him for our demo at Base Camp. Yeah. Went extremely well. >> I think we make a great team. So, let's bring Lemon up and and we can discuss this. >> Yeah, sounds great, man. I have not really met Lemon other than being on the calls here and there. so stoked to chat with him. Um, and yeah, I mean, what a what a what a big outcome from Jesse that I still just am like, wow, he's he officially came on the show and, you know, said that he's going to launch his own creator token. Um, that is insane.

So, yeah, we're going to get Lemon up, get him fired up, get him going. And, uh, here he is, guys. Lemon. ETH on building the next wave of mini apps with the bucket hat in the house, baby. What's going on? >> Hello guys. >> Hello. Hello. How's it going? >> Welcome. We made it. >> Yeah, finally. >> Long way from base camp. I got to give you a tip, man. I gota I got to get the tips rolling here. I'm just firing on on on the bass app already. Lemon, >> should I tip myself as well? Does that count?

>> Yeah. You know what? you know, now that we're here and I would love to hear all about kind of how you came here, what what you know, you know, the story and your vision and obviously we've been very grateful for your help uh in building this out, you know, but if I if I had one feature request and maybe I'm missing it up is that when I tip you, I want to be able to write a message that obviously isn't N is NSFW protected, but I'd like to have a message available to send so I can say how great of a developer and partner partner you've been lemon >> that that's a great one actually and uh I'm here for this I mean like I love working with with you and Robbie and and team because you you guys like guided us

uh on this you know like we we built it but thanks to your you know guidance and feedbacks and ideas uh like this one that you just shared seems like really you know like simple and even dumb but we didn't think of it uh in the past few weeks because we were in a rush but I think it's a perfect use case And it's not even a high lift. So I'm soon. >> Yep. Yeah. I I'm excited because there's so much room for creativity. I think this is where we can really use our imagination to think about what other what other things are out there. Lemon, before we get into all that, and I and I would really really like to use most of our time on that, but it's your first time on the show, so I'd love to hear like where you came from, like where

what's the Lemon story? How did you end up here working with us and on the rollup TV? >> So, I'm I'm Let's start from uh where I was born. Maybe like too many years ago, but uh but I I was born in Rome in Rome. I live in Rome and um it's three years ago that I co-ounded the local web3 community that now is scaling all over Italy. Um we organize eat Rome. We do a lot of events and uh you know education uh and information around what the blockchain technology can bring um in terms of innovation you know um and so that's how I started my journey before that of course I was already a software engineer my

background is in in tech and computer science and u uh was at the same time I co-ounded the community uh that I started working in a space with a US-based startup funny enough uh and and and that's where my web3 journey started. Um and then two years ago I co-ounded builder's garden as well with some people that I met in the community. So uh we are a team of seven now uh all Italians um some in Rome, some near Venice. Um and um I guess how I ended up with you know building mini apps full-time uh it all started with Farcastaster. So the the first company I was working for um we were you know like building in a similar space uh focusing

more on professional connection rather than just social ones and so we were studying Farcaster very closely it was in the beginning but we were inspired by their protocol and uh and product in the end and so that's how I I first got into forecaster uh last year um I started building very actively on it because they released the first version of mini apps which were called frames. And so that was for the first time uh we were able to build you know these small applications that uh people could use inside a social feed. So spending money executing transactions fun stuff. Uh when Mia cames uh when Mia came at the end of last year, of course we we were

super excited to you know build with this new primitive which has uh you can be like much more creative with mini apps today than it was you know one year ago. Uh and so that's how we started building uh uh the maybe not the easiest thing to build but the you know when when you see a social network and you see mini apps and people you know playing on or doing things with each other because they are in a social context you can think of Zinga and Farmville that's the first thing I do and and that's how we started building farville insidecaster so you can think of it as a farmville remix uh in a in a crypto context inside this purple social network. Uh and it blew up. Um so in

this simple game, people need to, you know, plant carrots, harvest them, earn experience points, complete quest. Uh and it it it has been one of the most popular game on on the social network so far. >> That's amazing. Uh and so from there on we learned a lot we learned a lot of stuff and uh I guess that's also how we ended up collaborating because we um we started building many of them not only for you know our own ideas but we also started working with external clients or other founders that had some ideas to build. >> Yeah man I mean look when you when we started to to to talk I mean it's been it's been a process of like all right we we should find a developer. All right, Lemon and his crew are some of the best in the in the business. I mean, from

that point on, it was like a matter of weeks before we got to where we are now. Um, and also, you know, it didn't cost that much money. You know, it's been a reasonable effort across the board. Base is happy to incubate a lot of this. And obviously, if we want to scale this thing, well, you know, we're going to have to scale it. But uh you know we we've just been thoroughly impressed by your work and also uh ve very excited to roll out the base app you know kind of feature set that we that we want to see. You know, I'm curious. It feels like now we are operating on a product business side of things. Like we were previously running a media company. Now we are kind of like almost feels like we're iterating on a product side where we have this like software development, you

know, testing, roll out, announcement, etc. So, you know, I'm curious from from your side kind of how you're thinking about mini apps as a holistic journey, right? So like you know what is the fastest path to get to like 10k daily active users you know how do you kind of think about uh launching the ideas building them getting users going like like there's a whole different set of suite of teams that are required to make this happen but you know I'm curious how you think about scaling the base app and kind of the like the life cycle of the mini apps as a whole perhaps as it pertains to like either rollup TV or you know something else.

>> Yeah. Uh I think that uh the main reason why we we've been able to ship these uh in in two weeks because that's how how long it actually took to have you know the current um mini app live. It's uh first of first of all like the concept of a mini app. So uh you know something lightweight quick that you can easily ship and and find users straight away. and then AI of course uh so all day long of course we are using cursor or uh vip coding tools to speed up development so that's another important uh important thing to mention and and I guess that both of these things uh allow um you know companies like yours that are not

really focused on development of new products closer to the product life cycle because it's it's it's becoming like so fast to ship this new experiment that you can you can really you know be closer to it and that actually speeds up the development because uh I'm sure that if we were you know starting uh let's say internally with builder's garden and building this idea without your your feedback or uh you know the thing that you you'd like to use and see in this mini app it would have been you know much maybe longer as an effort but uh you know thanks to this collaboration we've been able to scope out um what we really need to have um and I guess like the the path to to bring these mini apps uh to as many users as possible. You mentioned like 10,000 daily active

users. If you reach that, it's a very big number. So I'm not sure yet around the daily active users base I'm sure is in you know 50,000 maybe 100,000. I don't have the exact numbers. Uh but that's the size of the network and and and it's comparable uh to forecaster. So if you reach 10,000 you might have like 10% of the users on of the social network. So, uh, it's incredible. With with Farill, we at some point had a peak of 5,000 daily active users and and and that was, you know, huge deal. Um, I think to get there, the real trick is making the mini app as social and uh, multiplayer as possible.

So one thing that worked very well with far that of course we are reapplying on all the other mini apps we're building is around having people sharing moments that they live within the mini app. So on fire for example they to complete some quests they needed to request some items or seeds to their friends on the network and to do so they needed to post something on the feed. What happened? There were like thousands of these requests happening on the you know on on on the feed and so many people got to know Farville because of them. Um and that of course it's something that we want to bring in this mini app as well.

So making sure that uh you know people maybe when they tip when they uh vote on something um if we end up you know building something around clipping making sure that they can make it happen in the mini app and then share it on the feed. so that all the friends can see what they did. That's the in my experience in our experience what works well inside these new ecosystems where you can build me apps uh but you're also inside a social context. So that's something that um we really you know care about.

>> Yeah. And one one of the things that I I've heard from people that they also care about is um joining this network that they see with the products, the functionality and the content that we have at as a combination between Builder's Garden and the rollup. We have um we've done this show and you know we we get inbound from creators especially after base camp. I think there was two or three. I was just at at an event in Korea. Someone else came and they said, "Hey, like we're doing this crypto dating show." I showed people your functionality on your mini app and and they were blown away by the concept of

betting on who they think is going to get a second date. And so it was really really really intuitive for them to integrate a lot of the same functionality that we're talking about into a similar content format and a similar demographic. And so there's multiple different integration opportunities here whether it's just the product whether it's the content and the product. There's so many things that that we can think about. And I think you know one thing that is really important I think just for any creators that are looking at this for them to understand is that this is composable with the existing stack. like we have OBS that's running on the side. We've got a technical production team that's cooking that in real time.

All of this was just layered on top and so they don't change any of the like we didn't change any of the underlying infrastructure. All of this was composable and built on top of what we already have built. So man, Leone I mean it's just it's just been a pleasure working with you man. >> Yeah. I mean what's next? What's on your what's on the road map Leone? What are we cooking for the next month or two? Is I don't know if Like I said guys, my product roadmap on this has been robbed. So I'm not really sure what's going on, but whatever we're about to cook, we should we should establish a road map now without giving away too much alpha and let's get let's put our heads together here, boys. What is the what does the end of the year sprint look like here to get this base

app rolling? So yeah, I mean the first thing we are we are already working on besides you know some polishing and uh general fixes is around making this accessible to every streamer on Earth. So right now we build this to work um uh specifically for you the rollup uh live stream. What will happen soon in the next couple weeks is that every streamer maybe can create their profile and have their own unique link that they can share on the base app to have their you know audience joining the live stream and interact with all the plugins we built. That's the first step. The second one, once we have, you know, this new platform coming out for all the streamers, uh, we want to expand

the functionalities and plugins that the streamers can set up for their audience to use and and then I guess uh it's up to you guys like guiding me and telling me what's what would be cool to have. I mean, I'm thinking about a raffle plug-in for example. So, running raffles or um Robbie, you already mentioned some kind of prediction markets during the live stream. So, um uh I can confidently say that um before the end of the year, we will have uh at least two new plugins that people will be able to use and and most importantly that streamers can use during their live streams.

>> Yeah, we're just getting started. I think prediction markets is super cool, super interesting. We're already getting people that are they're looking at it and they say they also want to run this kind of functionality, which makes complete sense. So, we're going to figure out what kind of integration uh it it makes the most sense there. I love the idea of a raffle, too. I think, you know, what that does is it allows people to get in at a low entry point. Maybe they put in a cent or a dollar or something like that and we can basically combine all that. So, it's a low barrier to entry, but if you win, you end up winning this high, you know, grant great prize. So I think plenty of opportunities to explore and really this is only bounded by our our creativity

and our imagination and so it's theoretically infinite and and I think there's also look we don't have a creator coin. Jesse was on the show right before you lemon and he was talking about like his creator coin like he's really going to launch a creator coin. He basically announced it on our show but he wants to do it the right way. He wants it to be sustainable and and for there to be some fundamental correlation and association between his performance as a creator and the performance of the token. So I think the more and more people start to think about the connections between their tokens and what who they are and what kind of

creations they they make and what you know what they create. This is going to create this is going to like cause some really really interesting paths to develop whether it's points whether we incentivize certain interactions whether creators are starting to you know do things with their coins like you know we have integrations we can we can basically put it into the app. There's all kinds of things that we can do. It's just it's really really exciting. Um maybe Lemon you could just tell us a little bit about a little bit more about Builder's Garden. You know you kind of talked about Farm Farmville. Um what what are some of the projects you know aside from farville that you guys have experience building and how do you think it it prepared you for success to build uh control the stream?

>> I mean like even before farville uh I think one of the reason why we um we like mini apps uh so much is because uh before builder's garden we've been hacking at ethereum hackathons all around the world. I've been like to 20 plus hackathons uh and uh and that taught us of course around you know scoping down a project delivering with with tight deadlines picking up new technologies uh very quickly and and that's all that happens when you build a new mini app. So it's not, you know, the usual, let's say, three months, six months projects. It's usually uh not two weeks sprint like we did. That was crazy.

Uh but it's usually around one month, you know, like it's uh we're talking about weeks when it comes to shipping a mini app. And so first of all, all our experience in these hackathons, it's it's been very helpful for us to, you know, go from idea to MVP uh that fast. Um, Fargo then as you mentioned that that has been a very important piece um not only because it gave us visibility as a studio as a group but also because um we've been scaling a product and game for the first time inside you know uh the mini app ecosystem and and all these learnings that I I was mentioning you know how to make it viral how to use notifications um how to make it smooth how to make it

compatible with you know the other ecosystem that you can plug into. So that's that's been very important as well. And then I I guess um all these other mini apps we've been working on um moving from let's say fitness app like fitness mini apps like Grieve uh that was about checking in daily your workout or LT meal uh from to this summer uh we built a mini app for uh the centralized pictures um to watch uh their trailers. So decentralized pictures is a movie company. They produce movies and we built a mini app with vertical scrolling like Tik Tok where you can see these uh

these movies these trailers you can remix them. So clipping inside a mini app playing around with videos. Um and the cool thing is that all of them have been somehow different and and so that's how you know we've been you know learning about all these little Lego blocks that um at any point in time can be useful when it comes to building a new mini app like like yours for example. So knowing about how to easily spin up transactions or um even like that that simple smart contract we built for the uh voting and and sentiment plugin. It's something that somehow we explored in the past in other projects >> and and that's been very useful for us to you know ship it ship it in in two

weeks >> because and and that's the beauty of building in web 3. Everything that you build can always be useful later down the line because it's all open. It's all public and and permissionless. So it's easy also to build on top of things. You you don't need to start from scratch. Mhm. >> That that's all that we do on a on a daily basis. Um so we when when it comes to collaborating with with clients, not only we help them, you know, uh shaping a new idea, making it becoming, you know, fully packaged product, but we also work with more, let's say, infrastructure companies that have experimental SDK or toolkits. Um, and and they call us because they want to

see new use cases of cool creative use cases coming up and I was so pumped to work on this because it's I feel like it's it's real, you know, live stream is something that everybody knows and as you mentioned earlier, Robbie, the fact that you can still use your same stack while putting this, you know, uh, let's say crypto rails layer on top, it's uh, it's unique. Yeah, >> Lemon, I'm curious uh as as as well what kind of uh like of the features that we could build, which is like the easiest do you think to implement like on a like Okay, so what is what do you think is

the easiest to implement for the highest ROI when it comes to building something on like like the next part of bass streaming? Because like what what I'm realizing here is we're we're we're basically the pioneers for bass into streaming. Like what we kind of want to agree upon is what the the bass streaming app is going to build. And so like I love that, you know, and I'm sure there's going to be other creators who have great ideas, but I'm curious from your perspective, what are the the easy lifts for implementation to put into the app? Like for example, adding a note with the tip. I ought to think that that is like a a one-hour claude coding job maybe. But maybe not. But like is there other easy things that we can implement um that could have like a little bit of

an outsized impact rather than having to like go lift you know an an elephant for an elephant return? Is there any like can we lift a monkey to get an elephant? you know, I the the easiest one that comes to mind is prediction markets cuz like what we have right now with the sentiment uh plugin so the voting plugin uh it's already very close to be a prediction market. So uh and and I think the impact will be you know uh potentially you know huge because of uh how people are interacting with prediction markets today.

>> Mhm. So that's that would be the first you know if I have to choose um uh would be the first plug-in I will build. Then uh you mentioned creator coins earlier. I think that an integration with uh existing creator coins uh would be great so that every streamer um can showcase their creator coin uh and and get support directly from the mini app. So that's another one that I think when it comes to you know like all these plugins somehow they are also helping or or let's say creating a new uh monetization channel for the for the creator and so pushing also on this line I think uh it's high of interest one one of the yeah Andy you want to continue

that >> I'm just curious just like quick quick uh second thought if we had a creator coin could we be doing the tips in the creator coin and stuff and create our own little economy within the our mini app. >> Yeah. Either either you you configure the the tips to be coming only with with the creator coin or you configure the tip to be some sort of buyback on your creator coin so that it instead of you know going directly to your wallet as USDC as it's happening now it can you know bring up the value of your coin.

So, uh, which is, >> yeah, or like if a user has ETH or USDC or whatever it is in their wallet, it would be great if they can just click tip and then it goes buys the creator coin and then tips it and then basically creates that method cuz like no one's going to have it in their wallet from the >> the jump, you know? I mean, hopefully they do, but >> No, that Yeah, that go ahead, Lemon. Yeah. >> And and and funny enough, that that's one of the things. So making these let's say crosschain cross token transaction so that you don't need to bother if somebody has USDC or another token on another chain. Uh it's something that we built many times in different mini apps.

Um pretty easy to implement at this point for us. So this is part of the stack that we've been building internally somehow. Um and it's a a great use case actually. >> Yeah. Yeah man. I I think so too. And I this is something that we talked about in person, right? and and you know there's essentially this contract behind the scenes. Someone can tip with any currency and then it goes and it buys the token behind the scenes. That's the one that ends up making the tip. All kinds of things that we can do. Lemon, I want to take a couple minutes and talk about something that I think is high lift, granite, but also high reward. And it's one of the ones you mentioned. It's the clipping because Jesse was on the show and also talking about how they're rolling out streaming

and then they're rolling out clipping. and he really is emphasizing this as a part of the creator economy on base. So when you're thinking about the not just the creator economy but more specifically the clipper economy like within the broader creator economy, how like why do you think clipping is important? Why do you if so why do you think so? And how do you think the plugin could incorporate a clipping uh you know the mini app could incorporate a clipping plugin so that we have a button and we have this flywheel of people that are creating these clips.

So um to start I think that clipping is important to bring in in this experience and to bring on chain because it's something that people have been doing already um in you know traditional let's say web two live streams so Twitch or or other platforms uh so it's a known and existing behavior uh uh and that of course it's contributing a lot to give you know the streamer visibility um what could be different in this case not only by allowing clipping within the mini app, we can help you as a streamer uh uh getting more distribution. But since we're building on crypto rails, maybe there's a chance for you the the clipper to earn something out of it. So if you

if you come up with a uh an interesting clip, viral clip, maybe there's way for you to capture the that value. So the value behind the fact that you were the first one to clip that moment, share it and contributed for the streamer to go viral. Um I think it's a super interesting case as well as uh uh as well as I think that it's as you mentioned high lift in the sense that there are you know few uh moving parts and in particular like the the clipping experience um we built it somehow already in a mini app. So it's not that we will we will be starting from scratch. Um but there's you know a lot of work to do because you're not using a

mobile native app. You are using a mini app inside uh another application. And so there are some UX constraints that um you need to you know be be aware of uh when it comes to designing the experience. Uh but I I think the the potential is huge because of distribution. All we care about is uh is distribution and then of course that will will also bring monetization. >> Yeah, I totally agree. I mean this is this was my biggest question and I know Bassap isn't even really for the general public yet. Um I believe we do have some invite codes for those who are watching.

I'm waiting on the base team to get us from that uh you know get that from us uh for you guys today. Lone, do we have any alpha as to when the base app is going public? >> No, I don't know. No, no clue at all. >> Guesses and estimations >> next year. I I'm not expecting it for for the end of this year. Okay. >> Um >> because when we asked Jesse if it would be top 10 in the app store by the end of the year, he looked a little shocked.

>> That's what Robbie did. Rally was like top 10 in the app store by the end of the year. Jesse was like, "Whoa, >> I went hard on the bull bear, the sentiment meter." >> Yeah, I almost Yeah. I mean, dude, that is a good one, too. So, Lemon, the prediction markets that you're talking about is like the sentiment meter basically, but then implementing the prediction markets underneath. We wanted to maybe bring in a cow sheet plugin to uh the app. So what would be the process to integrate the cow sheet plugin into uh the base app just for like of of like just to view the predictions maybe on the screen on the base app and then be able to use the sentiment meter to track that. What is the KI base app potential integration look like?

I mean it's um you know it's it's about understanding how ki works behind the scenes and uh integrating within you know those funny buttons that we have on the mini app. Um I think the U overall like UIUX that we have won't change much. Uh what what changes is that it's instead our custom smart contract behind the scenes there will be a KCI smart contract handling the predictions and handling uh the payouts uh to let's say to the winners for that prediction. So, it's something we were already discussing with with Robbie, of course, and uh again, as a it's probably like the first one on my on my list of plugins to build. Um it's something that

also people at the uh at the live demo at Base Camp, um you know, came up with an idea. So, I think there there's already demand. >> They're very excited about it. and uh and and and not only that uh what could what we could potentially do is also linking existing prediction markets. So not only creating some during the stream uh but I see how you know during your live stream you might be talking about some uh stuff happening around the world and you might want to point people to that prediction market. Maybe there's also a way for you as a streamer in this case uh to earn some referral fees on all the predictions happening.

Yeah, that was one thing about the trading integration right now uh that someone mentioned to me while I was playing golf at base camp and it didn't even make like I for some reason it didn't occur to me right away but you know when someone buys higher clanker base token or ETH you know using the plugin on our mini app like why wouldn't we get some portion of those trading fees and and and the same goes for the prediction markets if we have a prediction market that you know uh we import from Kalshi and it appears on the base mini app. Why wouldn't we get some fe from some trading fees as a result of people uh generating volume inside of our app because we've directed some some

order flow through that plug-in. I think I think it makes complete sense. >> Yeah, >> that that's that's totally the case. Like of course like depends from protocol to protocol and and and to the integration that uh we end up building. Most of the protocols usually have uh space for uh they call it client fees because the mini app in this case acts as a client towards um the protocol and and that can um you know holds for uh trading tokens holds for uh predicting on a market holds for um any other you know plugin that we might come up with.

Yeah, obviously you know t >> t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t tapping into some of the markets that are existing on call sheet, letting people trade. That's one thing allowing maybe this is higher lift, but this is something that I think people are really excited about is creating custom markets based on what is happening on the stream. So imagine like a a button and then it's like make this a market and you click that and then you can type in the field it'll create a market if it maybe it's hosted by Kshi so that anyone can go deposit liquidity on there from the base app or from the call sheet UX you just deposit your assets that you

may have already sitting there and then you start to trade and it appears on call sheet it also appears on the base app. >> Yeah I mean to me it's like some new kind of uh advertisement as well. uh I think the the spindle team uh actually the the base team uh had a workshop session around uh you know like onchain advertising uh using the the spindle protocol um and it's a great use case because um with respect to the past where you were paying for an ad only to be showed on a page in this case you will be paying for that only if it brings actual value so you you're already paying back the the marketing cost let's say and So um this is

possible because onchain uh the onchain economy is composable and so all this stuff all these protocols uh that people can access from multiple uh platforms and clients can also be accessible from the mini app and because that's happening you can capture some of that value. >> Yeah. Beautiful. Lemon. the man behind the base streaming experience. The man who's taking all of our alpha and all of our sauce, building it, and then giving it to every creator for free. The man that we love, the man that we've come to know and build. I'm just messing with you, Lorna. We appreciate your efforts, your time. Look forward to building together and just building out the base streaming architecture together. I mean,

I think that we are very deep in in the weeds here. We've got the technical team behind to test all these things. because we will be going live consistently. So, >> thank you. >> Lemon, thank you so much >> for your help and and we wish you a gigantic base airdrop one day. >> Yes sir. That development crossing going to be huge huge >> uh speak to you soon. >> Just a a shout out also to to to my team. I mean I'm not been building this uh alone. Uh we are team of seven again and uh without them this would have been possible. So shout out to the team 100%.

And thank you guys for for for inviting me today. >> Thank you sir. >> Absolutely. Thank >> for coming on. See you next time. Shout out to tightknit teams capable of anything you say. >> Yes sir. AI it's AI revolution. Peace out lemon. >> We'll see you lemon. >> Peace out. >> Thanks man. >> Boom. What a session for the boys to start off the day. Rob, how is the party out there in Korea? We just threw a rage. There's actually a rollup party going on right now in Gangnam district. Likely quite a bit of drunk drunk people in there right now.

>> Yeah, there absolutely is. >> Rob, what's the state of affairs in in Soul Korea? >> People were a little bit surprised when I told them that I was leaving our own event to go live stream. >> They were probably like, "What the hell are you doing?" >> I think three people in a row all said the exact same thing. Grind don't stop. I'm actually still I'm still wearing the wristband. Nice. >> So, >> Brian, don't stop. Yeah, I probably would not have left the party to go live stream, but you know, it's not every day you get to talk to Wyatt from, you know, Van VC. So, I mean, come on. What are you going to do?

>> Come on. Special guest. >> Get drunk with a bunch of crypto bros in Korea who who are, you know, hanging out or you're going to talk to somebody who knows what's going on. >> I mean, come on. >> We're going to talk to somebody who knows what's going on. Let's get >> up on the up on stage, >> guys. We We got Wyatt in the house from New York City calling in looking flawed. What's going on, man? >> What's up, guys? How are you? Thanks for having me. >> Good. Thanks for coming. You see the city in the background. How's the city >> in the summer? >> Good. It's good. It's, you know, fall's coming too quickly, but uh I'll be I'll be heading out to Singapore this weekend. So, excited to uh to get over there. Although, it looks like everyone's getting hit by giant typhoon.

So, >> yeah, I saw that. If we make it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'll be there as well. I will see you there in Singapore. I'm in soul Korea right now. >> Uh any particular reason you decided to skip on Korea and just go straight to Singapore? >> I always found Singapore is is a token is like one of the highest quality and I think highest densities of of uh just people in crypto. I think it's probably the most important conference just because it really brings east east and west kind of together. But yeah, really more time. We have to divide and conquer. I can't go to every conference.

>> Yeah. So, you know, we have we generally have people from Banak at almost everything. Uh I I generally like to spend my time in in Singapore and really just use that week. So, >> yeah, same. It's a fun one. I'm I'm I'm in Florida. Rob's in Korea. I'll be missing out. I'm holding down the fort down here. Uh headed it back up to New York City soon. So, looking forward to that. Um we got a lot to talk about why I mean I got there's so many things from yesterday that have happened in today. First thing I got for you is Archetype raised 100 mil for their uh new fund fund three yesterday. Um you know I spoke to Dimmitri in their office in maybe March April they were raising then they got it done um which is great. I

think that's one of the largest crypto raises of the of the year for venture or of the last year. I think Maven had had $100 million raise recently as well. Um, so it sounds like there's still appetite for crypto venture funds, although word on the street would tell you otherwise. You know, kind of being in New York, what's the state of the appetite there? I know that you guys aren't raising now, but you know, are you seeing that demand? Are you thinking about raising another fund after this one? Kind of what what's the state of things there? >> I definitely think there's demand and congrats to the archetype team. Uh, I like that crew a lot. Um, yeah, that's that's an exciting data point. I think you'll see a bunch more. There's actually a bunch of funds that are are

raising. Um, we were previously when Juan and I were at Circle were LPs and like about 15 funds and VANC has also done some strategic balance sheet investments into a few funds. So, generally have a good pulse on fundraising. I absolutely think so. I mean, I'll give you an example. We raised a $40 million fund. We we were raising last summer. I tell the story all the time, but like our pitch was kind of like, hey, we came from circle. We've been investing in and working around stable coins since 2018. And we really believe in this whole like fintech on crypto rails thesis. People thought that was niche last summer until Trump came in and basically the bridge strike deal got done and all of a sudden it was like, yeah, you probably want to,

you know, these guys are investing in stable coins and tokenized assets. like now we're at Van who's from a product perspective doing a lot of that as well. Let's give them money. Um and so I I think that to me always felt like it was where kind of the new capital was going to come in in and around that intersection. And I think AI will be increasingly another another vector. Um and and you're already kind of seeing that in the private market. So for example, we have former portfolio companies like Dollar that are backed by Founders Fund and Sequoia. um you have new things like Arabore that are coming to market that have raised from um you know the Palmer Lucky uh company and and many other such examples. So like the traditional funds

uh traditional VC funds are coming into crypto. It's I think a much higher probability that they're going to be following on to funds like us and Archetype and others that are going to be finding this talent earlier. um in which case it makes it more attractive for more traditional LPs to get involved. So I think that you know crypto venture in my view will increase significantly. However, I also just think the market dynamic around tokens around how tokens are are launched and capital is kind of formed around that needs to change dramatically. Um I know you guys just had the Legion guys on.

>> We just we we co-led their last round with Brevin. >> Congrats. >> I think that's going to be Yeah, love that team. I think that's going to be increasing uh that's going to be like a new paradigm shift of like okay now you can raise from investors you can raise from the crowd you can fair launch tokens and so we can kind of pull the best of all these different worlds and examples that we've seen in crypto um and I think that will also bring in more and more capital because we've had a bit of like to borrow from the thea guys like a lemon issue around tokens and part of that is capital formation part of that is regulation >> y >> you're going to get the regulatory piece pretty soon. We've already got genius and many other things. So, it sets up a

really strong environment for both entrepreneurs and investors. And I think increasingly you're seeing venture funds kind of have some quasi liquid element to it. >> Y >> we we kind of separate church and state here, but there's a future in which maybe we raise a fund and it's, you know, it's it's both together. >> Um. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, I I I think very bullish and I think you'll have more venture funds announce larger raises. uh this year or next year. >> Yeah, I saw Legion partnered with Kraken to launch this yield basis raise which is the uh Curve Founders new DeFi product. That's a really good first start for them with Kraken. Congrats on that. Fab's a really good friend. We surf in Bali and hang out there a ton.

So, it's it's good stuff out there. um you know and and I I took one of your your claims from our previous episode I think I mean it was several months ago with regards to the types of new founders coming in and I've tried to ask every you know VC if they agree basically I think to kind of put it in my own words your your claim was like there's this new cohort of founders coming in that are just far more talented or far more experienced in payments fintech you know these types of of uh sectors than the crypton native founders that we've seen previously and that this cohort is looking really good for venture and could likely, you know, far outperform, let's call it like the 21 to

23 cohort. Um, I assume you still hold strong on that thesis then. >> Yeah, I would, for what it's worth, I wouldn't say that like cryptonative founders are are weaker. I just think what we're starting to see is an influx of new talent, which is a really bullish signal. Um so yeah like seeing you know uh founders from Stripe and OpenAI and Visa and you know tradi firms come in and really study the best practices of crypto and start to launch crypto native products and and we're we're seeing this in a different form factor as well with the likes of Tempo from Stripe and and Arc from Circle right like they're validating the technology stack that all

of us have been investing in for and and participating. in this entire economy for for years. So, um that's really exciting because it basically says like listen, blockchain, stable coins are are beginning to enshrine themselves as like the new foundational stack, the new financial primitive. Um and that's super exciting. So, yeah, like I I think we not saying the TAM for crypto overall in terms of like DeFi, etc., like it's not that it's bad. I just think that it's going to grow significantly when you find people who can cross the chasm, right? Everybody wants to sell products to institutions. No one's really done it yet. Um, everybody wants to create a

global payment system. No one's really done it yet using stable coins, right? Like the the majority of the flows, which are incredibly impressive, are used predominantly for buying digital assets. So, we should comp the current flows mainly to like DTCC, of which we're around 1% of the volume. If you do that on the Visa side as well, it's you kind of get closer to similar numbers. So, you know, we've got 99% to catch up on. Um, it's going to take lots of money, lots of really good talent. So, this is all positive. I think the the perfect world is when you find a team that can do it, that can do both. Really understand the cryptonative side, >> but can go sell that vision to, you know, Wall Street institutions, small

mediumsiz businesses. And so there's there's a lot of different form factors here like vault infrastructure. Um you know the actual enabling of securities on chain being able to create compliance and policy layers around that because once you put an asset on a blockchain like a like a stock um you know one you you want them to actually have ownership and and the underlying benefits of that dividends voting rights etc. But when you put it on a blockchain you create portability of that asset. So now I can go take it anywhere, right? It's mine and I can go put that thing into DeFi. It creates literally some of the most complex compliance problems you've ever seen. And obviously like that's a that's a huge service area that that we're looking at to try to solve

through our portfolio. So yeah, like seeing the people that can go solve that stuff, you kind of have to know what the issues are today. Yeah. As well as how they could potentially evolve on a blockchain. So it's it's really that perfect storm. >> This is this is a gap that we're trying to close. It it's it's an education gap and it's particularly a a DeFi education gap because we're not going to pretend to have all the knowledge when it comes to Trady. Um there's people that have been around in that business for so long, but you know, we we have been in this industry essentially and and you know, you've been here as well essentially as long as the industry's been around. you know, there there's a few, you know, OGs out there, but when it comes to building out these blockchain businesses, you know, we've

seen it from the start. And so, we understand the core technological features that go into it and also the limitations both at an ideological level and a technological level. And so I I I'm curious about how this plays out because we have these people coming in, but they don't necessarily share the ideology until they learn about it and they understand, wait, this ideology isn't here just for all of us to sing kumbaya. This is actually the right way to do things in general. And so when they come here, you know, we kind of had that first wave of consortium chains and all L1s and they did it their way and it didn't work. and now they're coming around to wait maybe the principles that were here in this

industry when we came here were actually the right ones and now they're starting to kind of adopt the philosophy. Um, and so I'm curious how this integration process takes takes place. And it kind of seems like maybe I'm I'm curious how you're seeing it, but the the the incumbents in Tradfi, the ones that are more adaptive to the ideological uh principles in crypto and DeFi, those are the ones that are that are poised for success because they can take all their experience and apply it to the principles that we have in this industry. Is that kind of how you're thinking about it similarly differently?

>> Totally agree. I mean, if you're not learning from all the mistakes and experiments that we've and successes of crypto over the last you know six to eight years like then then you know you're not going to make it. Um so you can't just come in and like copy paste Wall Street onto a blockchain and say like yeah this is it. In fact like you do need to understand it's kind of similar in payments. It's somewhere in anything that blockchains are trying to do, which is they're trying to collapse really the supply chain or value chain. Um, and in doing so, ideally, we can create better networks that are that are cheaper, faster, more transparent, um, you know, safer, have less platform risk, and and then by creating, you

know, this this plumbing basically, and that's what we find really interesting about what Legion and Dinari are doing, is like the more and more people that plug into these networks, right? the more wallets, apps, exchanges, you you create this user base that is massive that can tap into something with one click. So rather than doing like an IPO and paying a bunch of bankers or you're doing a you know series B raise, you're raising from one fund like what if you could raise 50, 100, 200, 500 mil from a combination of funds and retail. So like think of this example. We were talking about this actually. We have a weekly crypto call here at Van with like 30 something people globally that that are working on this stuff. And it was it

was funny. I didn't even think of Legion in this context, but imagine a future state when someone's like, "Hey, we're going to raise a series A and these funds can use Legion and bid on that." It's not just like the best fund wins with the highest price. It's like combination of all these things like how are you going to help this company win? Um and then retail gets to follow on and get an allocation. And this is all done where it's like you know my terms. we have the same vesting terms like you are treated as an equal. Um there's disclosures around who our market makers are team vesting. So like again we're taking like the best principles of like what we've learned from crypto but then like applying it and that could be that could be done in equity too like it doesn't have to just be this. So totally

agree you gota you gota >> I think this is like two worlds converging in the middle. >> So you know with that convergence happening uh why and I totally agree on the legion side of things. I'm, you know, we we've been operating in this world where frankly Gary Gendler, it's hard to overstate how much Gary Gendler has caused fugazi, tech debt, social layer divide. Like you can literally extrapolate so many things in crypto to like one set of, you know, a regulatory body of the last four years and see there's so much downstream effect of it.

And we're just slowly untangling this mess at, you know, one one blockchain, one launch, one product at a time. You even even recently John Sharps asking for Hyperlquid to cut their supply by 45%. because they're they basically all these tokens they have these allocations that were set up to basically create this fugazi you know decentralization you know methodology that effectively inflate their FTV so high such that outside investors see this difference between the circulating uh market cap the FTV they question whether there's growth from the FTV you know they see hyperlquid at 50 billion they're like where where can this realistically go uh you know when in reality John's making making the claim that well the market

cap's about half of that realistically and that the true market cap is somewhere between the circulating and the fully diluted and why it's because well these all these token companies have had to play this game and this kind of create this he even called it like this token socialism and I I kind of brought it back to Gary Gendzer and to you know the the regulatory but all of that is kind of uh behind us now and we now have the ability to basically invest into really quality startups that just want to create revenue uh that create real product market fit drive that value to tokens, drive that value to the community. One of those companies we will hope that can do this successfully is Loop. Loop is a port co of Van Ventures. You know them well. Um you

guys announced them uh alongside Fabric, A16Z, Archype, and basically you're trying to power global merchant acceptance of stable coin payments. When I read that I I think about, okay, right now I cannot go to Starbucks and pay at a point of sale system like Toast with my stable coins. it just doesn't exist. Uh when are we going to have a you know Stripe has Tempo, they have Stripe, they have Bridge, they have a L1 uh coming there. There's a whole path there where there's no bank needed, but the last step where the banks are still required or Visa is still required is that last mile. Um so kind of curious from your perspective, you know, merchants on Loop have been absolutely crushing their international reach. Um they've been cr you know, they've been killing it. what

is the what is the stable coins to be integrated into Visa and Swift? You know, how do how does this payment system kind of fully come together? I'm curious like what your thesis is at VANC that led to this investment. >> Yeah, I mean it's it's an area we've been watching for a long time, but I think you kind of nailed it, which is, you know, merchants are strangely like in that value chain, merchants are the ones that would probably benefit the most from stable coins. And if you have clarity on the back of that, uh, you could easily, you think about it in like one click in in a terminal, swap that into like some sort of tokenized yield bearing product that could be, you know, kind of you you could swing on the on the risk curve here, but you know, you

could deposit into a you could buy T bills like you could think of this as like, you know, I always talk about stable coins as being stable coins being your checking account. um you know any kind of tokenized T-Bell type products being like your new savings account. Um and the reason merchants would benefit the most is that they're the ones who have to pay all the fees and they're the ones who also have to wait to get their money. But think about for you and I, right? We just scan our face and tap our phone. Banks then value because banks are the ones that are actually doing the reconciliation here. And so like it's advantageous for banks to move your money slowly. Um and so yeah, you're right. like it talk we we were mentioning this earlier kind of collapsing the the supply chain value

chain here it's like it you cut a lot of people out of it in fact the issuers themselves in these cases and and the underlying blockchain so let's say like USDC on ARC right using a system like loop like circle is kind of the bank here um and then all you need is circle's banking relationships should the merchant really want to like cash back to a bank account, but I think increasingly you're going to see these issuers become banks themselves, in which case you probably would never leave some sort of circle environment, right? Like it'd be like a circle wallet with USDC and ARC. And the really cool part about the infrastructure they built as well is like you have a single account balance across really like any

chain. So should you be opinionated of the chain that you want, you can just scroll and be like, "Okay, I really want USDC on Salana, right? because maybe I have to pay my my vendors out and you know they prefer Salana like this is where the kind of B2B payments landscape gets really really interesting. Um still have to follow all the rules still have to be compliant. So that's why I think there will be intermediaries like Loop um that will enable this um we we've also made investments in uh into companies like Zar. SAR is also taking a different kind of merchant approach doing it in um emerging markets or or kind of broadly the global south. Uh you can think of it as like anyone who swaps their local currency for dollars can now

scan a QR code and swap for stable coins. Uh my partner Juan is Colombian. His mom has been going to the same corner store his whole life to hold US dollars. There's such high demand for US dollars. Stable coins, interestingly, have the highest premium there because the best dollar is a digital dollar that you don't have to keep under your mattress. And so, this is a huge um huge opportunity as well because we know that the demand for stable coins in these countries, Zar using a former portfolio company of ours called Rain, who's just raised a really large $57 million series B, um also offers a card product, so you can spend in stable coins. You can swap local cash into stable coins. Um, and I think they've had something like 35,000

merchants sign up um, pre-launch. So, again, shows the demand like this creates a local on the ground FX market. Also enables people um to have control over their spending once they swap that into account. And it starts to kind of look like Uber for stable coins meets like a neo bank. Um, so I mean there's there's it's really interesting like if you look back like companies like Rain, right? I think Charles started that like four years ago and shout out to the rain team because so many of my former uh circle friends are also now working there. Um all of this infrastructure was being built kind of in in in the dark like again it wasn't like a really hot category but the numbers were exploding as stable coin volumes and uh market

caps were exploding and so now we're like really reaping the benefits of that and all the fintexs can build on top of it. So that's why like we're kind of getting into the last mile point where you can go build that B2B product or that B TOC product and there's demand from day one and you can leverage this infrastructure to actually compete with legacy institutions because the value prop kind of using the Peter Teal 0ero to one thing like has to be 10x better, has to be 10x cheaper, has to be 10x faster. Um and like finally we we've reached that point. So yeah, that's that's another reason why I'm bullish on kind of the category for for venture is like there are going to be so many of these companies that are going out there. The dangerous part is you're going to get all of the huge companies

like RAMP deal. >> Yeah. >> You know, etc. Robin Hood, like they're all going to compete as well. So you have to be careful like are stable coins a feature here or is there something that actually has a durable mode? >> Yeah, I think that's a really good segue here. So, um, Tether is onboarding maybe 100,000 people a week, I believe, on a Tether or some crazy stat like that. I've I've heard multiple iterations, variations, couple hundred,000 a day, 50,000 a day, 100,000 a week. It's something crazy, right? And uh they just announced that they're going to try to raise at $500 billion valuation. And I I I put a tweet about it saying like, "Look, in the same way that CZ is not about to just let Jeff from Hyperlid

take his entire business, you know, Bank of America, Goldman, JP Morgan, Robin Hood, Schwab, the, you know, Fidelity, they're not just going to let Tether come in and take all their business, right?" And so, you know, when you're thinking about that kind of uh coalescence of, you know, these DeFi crypto stable coins going up against these corporate stable coins, you know, I think the easiest way to ask this is like is Tether like what are the considerations that one would have to make should they be given the opportunity to invest in Tether at 500 billion? I mean specifically with regards to the competition from corporations nothing kind of outside of that like tether at 500 billion like very very large number you know but could be reasonable to some large large

investors but I think if you're thinking about the perspective of the corporate competition why I'm curious like how do you see like where are the zones where these these types these two uh sides of the coin will clash the very most? >> Yeah. So Mike Mike Dud just put out a tweet on this and I actually just commented like right before I I got on the the stream which is like he was like hey you know Tether would be if they get this valuation would be the second largest bank in the world by market cap which means they'd be worth two times Goldman Sachs. You look at Goldman Sachs and by the way like Tether is incredible business. If you look at Goldman Sachs they have like 3.14 trillion AUM 56 billion revenue in 2024. circles 173

billion 13 billion of revenue. We're entering into an environment where rates are likely going to drop. They're clearly gonna use this money to probably acquire to move into other business lines. But to us, it's also really clear like why are circle stripe and everybody launching all these other products? Why are they launching blockchains? Why do they have payment APIs? Why do they have wallets? They're trying to move into more of a transactional business model where stable coins can be a lossleading product. They can be a CAC tool. And you're already seeing that with fintex like like Coinbase like they're not making much money if at all on Coinbase balances that are sitting in the Coinbase app and they're giving you four plus percent. That money is actually just being taken from Circle and being given to you. Um and so I I see the same

thing happening in the B2B world where like the float is a short-term business model to buy you time to move into a transactional business. So, you know, as impressive as it is, I I think that price is incredibly aggressive. Um, but I don't have all the details, right? I don't know what is cooking. So, >> where are you trying to get to like five trillion? >> Why? What you're saying is that they could actually lose money on stable coins as a business and then they would >> lose money, but just >> you use it as like a like, hey, you you you hold, which Tether doesn't do today, right? Like Circle does with everyone.

We saw what happened with Hyperlid, right? Hyperlquid, I think, is the clearest example where the market is trending. People were willing to offer 100% of the yield back. >> Yeah. >> To Hyperlquid, right? They were just like, "We'll we'll effectively do this for free >> just to get that distribution." >> Um, so it's clear that that is, and that was kind of our pitch when we were fundraising, too, is like we think that these these businesses are going to move into alternate business lines and that there's opportunities to invest in kind of the middle layer of the stack or just the end distribution. Um, another example of this is is Santiago or Santi who who um founded inversion. We invested in version as well. It's like why? Well, because >> he can go take this kind of out of the box chain and go pop a business with 10,

20, 30 million users on top of it and then like you could run that same playbook. So, it's clear like everybody's kind of coming to that conclusion. And the USDH, you know, drama, for lack of a better word, was was a great example of, I think, what what's to come. It's not going to happen that quickly because Circle and Tether have the best network effects. They have the best liquidity. Um, and so people will pay for that. I also think there's a brand association here that they want. Like people are still pumped about native USDC. >> Um, and that's good because Circle can give them like great tooling to to make their their ecosystem actually work. But I do think over time you're going to see the same thing happen. Um and so for Tether, yeah, it's like what's that

story, right? Because like Circle went to market and one of the reasons the IPO was so successful from from what I've heard is that Wall Street really just started copying them to Visa. They're like, "Hey, this is the new Visa. This is like a vertically integrated stable coin issuer that offers wallets that can move in. You know, we'll launch their own blockchain that offers their own native bridge. And again, because they control all of that infrastructure, including the end banking relationships, they can choose to dial up or dial down one, right? They can turn CCTP fees on, but do complete yield sharing back on USDC depending on your volume. Like, um, they can enable, you know, gasless transactions if they want to on like they can do all sorts of interesting

things. Now you could argue it's like you know not fully decentralized and maybe it's permissioned or kind of it's permissionless but they control it. Um but over time if they can start to decentralize that like it it does become really compelling infrastructure. Yeah, I mean that is Yeah, that is just it sounds like you are on the on the fringe here of the the inevitable, you know, which is this returning of yield somewhere else other than just the stable coin issuer. You I was at stablecon in Mar in I think May or something in New York City. I spoke to like five people who are waiting on the they were like like fintech companies.

They're basically just like, "Yep, as soon as the Genius Act is passed, we're just going to launch a stable coin and we're just going to give two and a half percent back and just keep like the other half." So, it's like immediately people are just like sharking on this. >> Yeah. And and again, certain people can like if if I'm Robin Hood and I own the end customer, it's much easier for me to do that. Where things start to break down is that like crypto is inherently fragmented. We have all these different chains. We have all these different pockets of liquidity. Like it it's actually really interesting if you think about it from that perspective because every net new stable coin actually just benefits circle and tether because you have to create liquidity pairs against them.

>> Yeah. >> So it just makes them stronger and stronger and then eventually and we've seen this before like >> a you know people forget but like a launch stable coin launched a stable coin like in prior cycles everybody launched stable coins for the same reason because we've been in this rate environment for a long time. This dates back to like 2122 bull market era. >> Yeah. it it generally it doesn't work out for most of them but I do think in these closed loop environments where you're really using it again as a CAC tool to offer yield back to your customers you can do that strong likelihood though when you're moving those assets you likely swap back into a major like USDC or USDT >> based based on that it I realized that this is effectively like a new forex market and same way that you know some

of these other non US dollar pair uh currencies are are then you know pegged or uh kept at some ratio to the US dollar and it maybe there's a floating peg. There's different variations, but effectively we're going to start to see a lot of sim similar market structures evolve in stable coins. >> 100%. Yeah. And right now all of them are USD denominated. But like increasingly again if you you assume that there's going to be more penetration like the global south like people will start popping up and and creating those local stable coins will like likely run through local networks and then you'll swap back into your uh you know US dollar stable coins likely for for kind of that savings purpose.

Um, yeah, and then this begins to expand into all different types of yield, which is where kind of DeFi and tokenized assets or people call them RWAS, like that world just converges really really quickly. What what we really need is like the most, you know, if clarity could do anything, it'd be like provide some guidance on that because again, >> you create a whole host of KYC, AML issues. Uh we were just on a call talking about this earlier today as well which is like you know in the traditional system like everybody at each individual point in the chain is licensed in some way shape or form and you have bro you have broker dealers you have exchanges that that operate as brokerage firms and maybe they need alter alternative trading systems licenses and then you have all these

rules around like can a not a credit investor participate. I get the sense that the SEC and maybe soon the SEC and CFTC as one collective body >> will start to change a lot of these rules because blockchains inherently challenge the entire nature of them which is like >> why do we need >> a transfer agent like why do we need these things and Hester Pearson they've all commented on this but that I think is where things get really really interesting because then yield is just like >> broadly accessible on the internet like yield in any shape or form >> um and so That's going to benefit stable horns greatly. It's going to benefit DeFi greatly. Um, but I think it comes in the back of like some move on the regulatory side.

>> Yep. Wyatt Lan GP Advantic Ventures, great session today. Thank you for your time. Always a pleasure. We'll have you on again in a couple weeks to months and recap. I'd love to just keep it keep tabs on your port codes and some of our shared ones as well. Uh, stoked to be here and thanks for your time today, man. >> Appreciate the time. Thanks, guys. And congrats on all the progress. >> Yes, sir. We'll see you in the city soon man. >> All right. >> Peace out, buddy. >> See you, brother. >> Alrighty, Rob. Alrighty. Well, we have the Stabled Up episode two coming next.

But first, we got some news. Ultra joins the Koshi crypto team. >> Ultra has officially put his tweet out. Um, we will we will get that up later in the week as we kind of build out some more of the of the features on the show. But I mean, I'm just going to pull up Ultra's tweet. And so, you know, Ultra is joining the Cal joining Koshi to accelerate the onchain revolution. He's bullish on prediction markets. He's been greenpilled and you know, he he says that they are an industry, they are new financial in instrument. They are a new asset class. He believes Koshi will win

because for a variety of reasons. Um he clipped some of our awesome stream and he just he's very very bullish. So he's been working on fun social exper experiences. This is a guy who's been a vibe coder been creating really cool products in crypto. So congrats to Ultra. Koshi is recruiting an army of crypto natives. We're excited to be partnered with them as well. It seems like crypto Twitter is coming on to be very very bullish on prediction markets. Congrats to Ultra. He's the man. I've hung out with him several times. Love the guy. So yeah, Robert, anything on that?

>> I think I think you're right. Uh in the sense that Koshi is building out this crypto army. Um and I think it's no surprise based on our conversation with TK and John Wang. We talked with John about the partnership with Robin Hood and we see the direction that Robin Hood is going. We see the direction that financial institutions are going in general. We know that Khi is building prediction markets, a brand new asset class and based on everything that you and I know and the way that this industry is going. It makes complete sense that they're following in the footsteps of giants. They're also paving a whole new asset class and that's going to happen onchain and they have to invest in that industry. And so there's a ripe amount of experience that they've

now hired in their new talent. I think they're going to tap into that experience. I think they're also going to leverage partners like ourselves to to get that message out and also to be pioneers like we've been with the base app with experimenting on new media features. I think we're going to have some really interesting things as far as integrations into our social feeds. I think we're going to be really flushing out what the next era of prediction markets looks like because we're we're going beyond the the vanilla binary options yes and no type markets. We're going to end up getting uh uh community generated markets. There's going to be all kinds of trading interfaces. Look, I still think one of the most bullish

things about the entire Koshi announcement that occurred yesterday and now now Ultra's on board is Trek coming on and saying effectively the right way to think about KHI is an L1. >> Yeah. >> Because there's going to be all of these applications that are now built on top of the KHI protocol which is this liquidity layer that is optimized for prediction markets. They're not thinking about themselves as a social app or finan even a financial app. No, >> effectively now the rollup is this social app, right? Integrated with KHI.

There's going to be financial apps that are integrated with KHI, trading bots, trading interfaces, the whole docket >> with differentiated UX and feel for each kind of segment that John said for different sports, for politics, etc. So, I'm stoked. Congrats to Ultra. Congrats to the Cali team, guys. We've got Stabled Up episode 2 rolling out next. We're going to take a quick break and then we are going to roll right into that. So, thanks for being here. Get ready for Stabled Up episode two. And yeah, guys, we'll take a quick break here and we will roll into the Stabled Up episode number two. We've got Sixman Ventures. We've got Paxos today. So, let's take a quick break and we will get

on to the stabled up show now. Hey.

Hey. Hey. Hey. Where are you?

[Music] What's going on, guys? Welcome to episode number two of Stabled Up. We have Carl from Sixman Ventures. We've got Bao from Paxos. They they they actually used to work together, so should be some good vibes and team chemistry here today. Rob, good to see you in Korea. Uh Carl, welcome to the show for the first time.

We we've had your partner Mike on once or twice, but good to have you. Ba, good to see you again. Um guys, this is Stabled Up presented by Fracks, one of the leading stable coins in the space since 2020 2019. DeFi champions pushing hard into the regulatory environment with their genius act uh compliant stable coins and their yield bearing stable coin. We got a lot to talk about today guys. So Carl, why don't you open us up quick intro about yourself, Sixman Bow, it's good to have you back and then we will get right into it. >> Terrific. I've been a general partner at Sixman for three years. My background is in product and engineering. That's really where I uh tend to spend a lot of time when I work with companies. Um, Sixman Ventures at a high level is an early stage venture fund where we invest

in cryptonative founders at the earliest stages preede through series A. >> Beautiful. Thank you, Carl. Welcome to the show. Uh, bow. It's your first uh first time back. >> I think I think I keep saying bow means bow. >> Yeah, you did. I thought it was bow and then you said okay, I we'll throw that one out. I think it's cuz he's in Asia. He's in Asia, so he's like thinking bowels all the time. You know what I mean? I think that's what's going on right now. He's got I was gonna forgive you because you're in Korea right now and it's probably the middle of the night.

>> There's not much sleep in Korea. >> Bo, welcome back. First time since the USDH saga. I you know, vote went one way or the other, but I'm curious how you how you've been since the vote. Give us some takeaways and just, you know, some reflections on on really the process and and and how things have been the last few weeks. >> Totally. Well, first of all, uh took a few days to recover after that. Uh that was that was a week of no sleep for sure. Uh but it it was a lot of fun and um uh so coming out of it, you know, I think the reaction from the community regardless how the vote went, we had so much outreach in the days following the vote from all the teams we talked to and they're like, "Hey, we still really want

to work with you guys." Um which has been an awesome reaction, right? And I I think we really achieved what we wanted out of that um kind of whole proposal. would have been great to win, don't get me wrong, but it was like a an accelerated oneweek timeline just to get to know so many different um community members and teams building in Hyperlid. Some that we were already connected with, some that we connected with for the first time. And so um just all coming out of that, the warm reception from the Hyperlid community, even even though we didn't win, and saying, "Hey, please come still build with us. We still want to do things." And so we have some team members in Korea this week. Um and we're kind of like continuing on our plans to kind of uh um decide on like the right set of partners to start

building with in Hyperlid. And so um you know we're still continuing on um you know we're still excited to keep building in the space. And so um you know appreciate the warm welcome from the Hyperlid community regardless of the outcome of the vote. Um and we're excited to keep >> Yeah, I saw Native Markets just deployed USDH today um onto Hyperlid. So congrats to them and the competition has just started. So, it's was great to see all the different providers come out and express their support. Just have Arthur Hayes dump on us after calling it for 128x. What's new with that guy? I mean, that's just like clockwork. All right, boys. Let's not bury the lead. Tether at $500 billion valuation seeking 20 bill.

Bullish or bearish? Carl, go. >> I think it's bullish. I think at the end of the day, people have thought about money as a legacy financial system and thought about valuation metrics on that framework, but really these are technology companies. The hard part of these businesses is not the reserve management. There's actually with the Genius Act increasingly clear guidelines on how to manage that capital. It's about technology and distribution. And so with that, I think they're extremely well positioned to continue to eat market share. I mean the valuation's high but at the end of the day I think they are the leading uh you know stable coin out there in terms of adoption and growth and I think with the addition of um Bohines to their team it's just continuing to deepen that regulatory um situation. I think the last thing I'd be

thinking about is not just technology but also AI. I think it's still wide open as to are AI agents going to pay on chain which chain are they going to pay on and which stable coin are they going to use? And I think that's a key area where whoever wins that space is is going to grow massively. So I think it's it's obviously very expensive. Uh you know, we don't participate in rounds like that, but I understand why people are so excited about Tether. >> I think that's a really interesting point about AI because that's not something that was intuitive when this announcement came out. Um that is a conversation topic here in Korea. Hib was on stage today. He was talking about how we've essentially had uh the formation of stable coin dominated economic zones. And so we have uh an

onchain stable coin. It's primarily circle uh with USDC. And then we have off-chain and centralized exchange stable coins which are primarily USDT denominated markets with uh with Binance and and with originally was Bitfinex. Um but now you have those per that are done denominating those asset classes. And so if you have AI agents on chain, they're primarily uh going to be consolidated into a single stable coin because that's where liquidity goes. So um I'm curious actually from the first point that you made Carl because I want to pass this to Bo and get his perspective on it. Um we had Wyatt on just a few minutes ago. He was talking about how look you know uh Mike Dudas Carl your partner put out a

tweet said this is you know effectively 2x Goldman Sachs at this valuation. Meanwhile, Goldman Sachs has three plus trillion in assets under management. Tether's got something like 167 billion. Maybe it's a little bit more than that, but it's not three trillion. So, Bo, you make uh you know, Carl, you made the point about this being a technology company. Bo, do you think that's the right way to think about, you know, stable coin issuers? You being a stable coin issuer with Paxos. You know, is it a technology company? It's a finance company. It's somewhere in the middle. But generally when you're thinking about the growth uh pattern, how how do you think uh and the valuation heristic here? How how do you think is the right way to think about uh these issuing companies?

>> Yeah, I I mean I absolutely think these uh these types of companies are technology companies, right? Um and I think the the point that's really interesting to me is like yes, like it's 2x the valuation of Goldman Sachs. How many employees does Goldman Sachs have >> versus how many employees does Tether have? like the like the operational leverage that Tether has gotten from both technology and network effects that they built up is incredible. And I think it's just a reminder of the operational leverage and scale that kind of crypto or like call it technology enabled financial companies can get to. Um and it I think it's incredibly bullish, right? And I think this has always been like kind of the hypothesis of everything we've done with like Paxos and Paxos Labs of like hey like we think this is going to be a massive industry

but also the idea of bringing code and automation and technology to money is I think uh such a massive opportunity that I think some people in crypto understand it but I don't think the world at large has really internalized that and I saw some of the headlines yesterday I was like you know at this valuation uh tether would be the you know largest privately valued company next to open AI and everyone gets the potential open AI but I don't think until that number people really understood the the scale and the kind of leverage people can get with um applying technology to money as a as a as a um sector.

>> Yeah. I mean I think there's people on on the street who don't who haven't even heard of Tether like legitimately people that are working in in you know traditional banking or investment banking that that have not heard of Tether. is going to be on their desk as of last night, this morning. Uh a shock. You know, I think the one thing that people are thinking about is well, if they're going to raise this much money, 20 bill at a $500 billion valuation, the question is are they worried about the interest rate uh trend being uh you know, going down, that being a large part of their business model, interest income, and then how do they think about actually creating new business lines uh with this raise capital or with their current stack? You know, they own farms in Latin America. They own equity and

Bitcoin mining companies. They own Bitcoin Gold. Um, you know, how do you guys think about Tether expanding their business lines to uh basically protect against the decline in revenue from dropping interest rates? Would like to hear from you both on this. Maybe Bo, you can start off. >> Yeah, I mean, look, I can't speak as much to their ambitions on farming in Argentina. I'm not an expert there. Uh, seems interesting, seems cool. Um my the thing I've always thought about with you know kind of like these early movers on stable coins particularly Tether right um because Tether keeps almost all of the yield that's generated by USDT um people are like effectively paying to

use Tether and they're trading kind of the uh amazing network effects and liquidity and availability and on and off ramps of Tether in exchange for saying I'll forego my yield. My thinking is and like my like hypothesis has been like eventually in the long term um the economics or margins of stable coin issuers look a lot more like asset management businesses right where you're looking at 20 30 40 50 bips on assets under management and then you know you're like monetizing around that. The question that, you know, I've been asking myself is, well, are Tether's network effects so strong that they're going to be able to fight that fee compression for longer than other companies, right? But tied to that

kind of AI point, if you do have an AI agent that's transacting with stable coins, they're going to programmatically find the best deal and find the best economics, right? And if there is another stable coin that enables them to achieve their stated goal or outcome, but it actually has better economics on it for them, AI is more likely to dynamically switch that than a human, right? Human consumer behavior is much harder to change and often not like rational uh versus with an AI agent that's doing this, you can literally program it to say, I want to achieve this outcome with the best economics possible. And it will go scan and actually like go iterate through that.

And I think that actually might drive some of this fee compression for um um issuers, but I think issuers need to be playing for the long game and and I believe that eventually like margins compressed to like an asset management business model versus like you keep everything. >> Carl would love to get your take on this and and I just want to throw in there, you know, th this is a prime probably very path dependent. um you know once those liquidity network effects become entrenched uh oh I to I think you're totally right about the programmatic effect of AI and the the adaptability and the ability to switch and pivot but ultimately you know on once these things take hold um they these liquidity network effects do they they tend to compound um Carl how are you thinking

about this >> yeah I imagine that I mean there's it's I guess in thinking about the question it's like where don't they expand like money is used in every part of our lives. Everything from uh you know e-commerce uh you know physical retail um checkout global financing prime brokerage. So I I think there's essentially unlimited upside that Tether can achieve. Um I think the most interesting business model here is democratizing financial services that previously were not available to like the 99% of the population. If you look at you know how even how today people are saving and spending in tether in emerging markets you imagine new financing products that can be that can go with that to now enable the thing

like getting loans that we can do today in the United States that's not available for most of the world. So basically all the financial services we get today democratizing them and being the conduit and trusted brand name that people utilize. The last part on the business model that's really interesting is on the blockchain side. So, we're investors in in Plasma and what I see is the beauty about having a blockchain or partnering with a blockchain is now you don't just get money based on the interest. You get money based on gas fees for every single transaction. It's like imagine if you're able to to be tether and build out an ecosystem through plasma or any other network that they choose to partner with and from that be able to get a portion of every single transaction that takes place on

chain. That's where this becomes a revenue monster as you know, especially considering that interest rates are going to come down over time. >> Uh Andy, you're on mute there. >> Sorry guys, just to double click on the plasma point. Today's Wednesday the 24th. Tomorrow is Plasma's mainet. This is live today. We'll be releases a full episode tomorrow. Plasma mainet. What does this mean for Tether? Obviously coming out as the category leader in the stable coin chain wars. Uh I think you know one could say very highly competitive market. You've got you know stripes tempo. You've got circles arc you've got plasma and stable on the tether side. What does plasma's mainet mean for tether's valuation for tether's

uh entrenching its its USDT asset across the world globally and um you know yeah let's just start there and then I'm curious to get your take on their plasma 1 announcement as well. Yeah. So I look at it as it now gives people a safe and secure place to transfer Tether with an elevated user experience compared to what you can get today on any other blockchain network. Um that's because it's designed with stable coins in mind. And so in terms of becoming the and this relates to plasma one the um basically the consumer bank for the world is the way I think about it. Unlike banks today that are bound by regulatory restrictions and different geographies and other considerations, stable coins can are global by nature and so there's

no bounds to how quickly these uh stable coin issuers and networks more broadly can touch and they can scale at exponential rates faster than I need to in order to enter new country I need to get a bunch of licenses etc. You know, stable coins are ubiquitous and universal. So I think there's just unlimited growth rate here. Plasma is very well positioned and already partnering with Tether to be um one of the places where the world comes to save and spend and do more. >> Yeah, just disclosure, our fund invested in Plasma as well. Met Paul quite a while ago and had been super close to them. It's trading pre-markets right now at about 8 to9 billion fully diluted valuation which is a big win I'm sure for sixman as well as for our fund which we're rolling out the branding for and

whatnot very very soon. It's good idea ventures. It is a prop capital fund, probably around seven figs invested principal, maybe just over a mill. We've had some big winners so far. We got a long way to go. Uh Robbie and I are starting our career the last two years. Uh Bo, just quick quick from you take on plasma take on the stable chain or stable coins chain uh kind of wars. What this means for Tether? >> Yeah. So I I think the most interesting thing is Plasma one. Uh and the re the reason is the thing that I've believed since I got into the space uh and really like the reason why I joined Paxos in the first place was I've always believed that the broad adoption of crypto stable coins blockchain rails is going to come through existing kind of like fintech

interfaces right um and the reason I believe this was I worked at Cash App and Square before I came to Paxos and one of the things I saw was it is so hard to actually like do customer acquisition in a consumer fintech setting. Um, and and what we were doing at Cash App was we were actually going around the world and investing or acquiring kind of like the P2P apps in different regions. And what we were finding was if you were a second mover, like Cash App was actually kind of like an anomaly that it was a second mover in the market that was actually able to catch um kind of catch enough market share. Um, and we found that's very hard to do. And so taking that experience beyond what I've been thinking about is like, well, I think the Plasma approach is very interesting. I think Plasma 1

looks like an awesome app. I would love to use it. the question becomes like do they end up developing kind of the muscle to go run like consumer fintech like customer acquisition right I think it's a very different muscle very different motion than uh crypto user acquisition right and so um the question I have in my mind is it is it the plasma ones of the world which are these kind of um built from the ground up like stable coin or blockchain aligned fintech apps or is it the you know the cash apps of the world the uh the GCashes, the you know PTMs of the world that actually get around to implementing these services and they already have the distribution, right? Um and we know we know like Ant and Alibaba are looking at

this like so that's kind of the race that I'm seeing and I'm curious to see how it plays out. Um I I I love the idea of a app that's built from the ground up like around stable coin rails, but again like maybe I'm like scarred from my past experience. getting distribution and consumer fintech is very hard. And so like my bet is slightly towards the like existing fintexs getting getting together to like actually do some of this stuff. And and for what it's worth, that's kind of like what we're focused on at Paxos Labs is like we think yes, stable coin access for existing kind of like fintech platforms is important, but there's also kind of things that come beyond that, right? And this is kind of what Carl was getting at. It's like well you just do stable coins and then maybe you do payments, but then there's all

these things around lending, borrowing, all the financial services that can be built around stable coins. Um, and and I think that's gonna like every fintech app is in the world is going to get there. It's just a matter of when is how I think about it. >> Carl, anything to add there? >> No, I think he's spot on. The only thing I'd add is I think Tether has distribution. I I don't know Cash App numbers versus Tether, but I'd assume that more people know and have heard of and use Tether globally than Cash App. So I think when you start to pair the distribution that they've already achieved with the technology blockchain and to your point like the financing layer that can be added on top um it's a pretty powerful combination. The last thing I'd add is, you know, banks today when they're valued, they don't really

have ecosystems or at least not robust ecosystems. But blockchains by definition, to um Bose's point, are challenging to build, but if you can build them, you have you reap enormous rewards. And so you're taking the benefits of of banks and money ownership and movement with the ability to build an ecosystem where now anybody can also build value ad services and platforms on top. I think it's a pretty exciting combination. >> Beautiful. All right, gents. Rolling into the next topic. We've got stable coins to be used as collateral in the US derivative markets. Uh, so it's kind of a vague headline here, but curious for your initial reactions. What does this mean for stable coin adoption maybe? What does this even mean? Like

what is the current collateral in US markets? How do these things settle? Um, and what does the addition of stable coins eventually mean? Maybe we can start with just understanding how US D's markets work first. Uh if either of you guys would like to take take a quick stab at that. >> I don't have a background in traditional finance. Here's here's what I would hypothesize and or unless Bo you want to start if you have a back. >> Okay. >> Go go go for it. I'm happy. My hypothesis is anyone that's lived through actually when I joined Paxos. The reason is I listened to Chad on a podcast and he talked about the 2008 financial crisis and at the time nobody knew where their assets were and I actually lived this through the SVB collapse where I I manage all of our

assets and we had wires in different places and I'm moving wires and literally don't know where the money is. And I think stable coins have a very uh they're it's very clearly understood where who had what money and when. And with that that's where this starts to become powerful is when you have these markets and if there is any sort of um you know collapse or extreme volatility and people are uh you know losing their financial positions. We now have the ability to trace the money and I can understand did this confirmation and transaction go through or not. And just that peace of mind and speed of settlement can actually help limit the downside in these financial catastrophic scenarios. So I think that's where it can be powerful. Um I think in the early days it's you know going to take time to

get adoption. People are used to wires but it's more seamless to use uh when we fund companies. We need to do callback numbers for wires and it's such a pain. uh versus I I think this is going to simplify back office operations for all these companies that use um you know futures and you know now they can use stable coins and have lower operational requirements and it can actually help speed up uh settlement. So I'm I'm pretty optimistic but I don't expect and you know huge outcome immediately. I also don't know this market well and so as a typical VC I can opine on anything without having as deep of uh you know depth here but I'm always quick to say when I don't have depth in an area versus when I do.

I I'll I'll I'll I'll say a few things with the same disclaimer. This is not my area of expertise or or area of depth, but I I think the on the surface the potential benefits are clear, right? Faster settlement time, lower transaction cost, uh 247 to Carl's point, transparency. Um I think all that's really interesting. I think there's another piece that's really interesting around all the actions that are actually taken, right? Kind of margin calls, like doing all the kind of actions that need to happen when you're running an exchange or like a trading operation. the ability to automate that with a modern tech stack, right? I think that is like really exciting to me. Um because uh again like that's the thing I always come back to with stable coins.

It's like it's like modern tech stack on money. That is amazing. Like a lot of the banking system is built on a very like legacy tech stack. Um and it's all built in silos. So we're talking about a transparent interconnected tech stack that enables money to move. Now, with that said, one of the things, you know, I've been kind of like noodling on over the last 24 hours is like the idea of stable coin accepted as collateral for futures trading sounds amazing. And what I was playing out was like, let's say like tomorrow they like go through this comment period and they're like, amazing, this is great.

We're going to do it. What does that actually mean to go do it, right? There's a whole laundry list of things and I'm sure Carl can like spot like kind of like help me out here, but it's like okay well some of these venues need instit institutional grade wallets to manage these st like like where are they actually holding these stable coins, right? Um they need wallets. Uh they actually need the ability to like call smart contracts. They need to be able to reconcile stable coin balances versus fiat balances, do the reporting that's required by the CFTC for of them. So there's like this whole implementation path that I can see like being like years of work. I don't know, maybe a year of work at least. Um, and so I think like the headlines very exciting, but it when I like stopped to think

about it, it's like, oh man, like actually like all of the venues that participate in this market would need to like level up their infrastructure to actually support this um and all of their operations. >> Yeah, we haven't really had a new financial system since we became digitized. Even the fintech area was putting lipstick uh fintech era, excuse me, was putting lipstick on a pig. This is the first time to both's point we're able to rebuild from the ground up this financial layer on blockchain rails and with that becomes a lot comes a lot of automation a lot of transparency and it's very exciting. >> I think uh the 247 nature Rob as well and I know you guys something is where that the entire like traditional financial sector is heading towards feels like this is like a little a

little hint as to like hey guys like we're starting to think about how do we get this thing to be working all the time. I I'm curious where who do you guys think this push is coming from? Like obviously us in this room like we've probably been thinking, oh the traditional financial system has been legacy for too long. We want to change that. But who who do you think is, you know, at the CFTC, you know, are are they spearheading these conversations and it just kind of came to this naturally or do you think there's there's entities out there that are sort of they they had this in mind and they're pushing for it? Um so my take is that we've shifted into an administration that uh where being pro- innovation is rewarded and applauded. Uh and so I you know I think

even uh you know SEC chairs kind of did a speech in a couple weeks ago in in Paris and and you know he spent a lot of time talking about kind of like this being cryptos moment and all the things that the SEC wants to do to um ensure we're creating kind of a pro-innovation environment. you know, I think like a similar uh kind of like sentiment coming out of the CFTC. Um, and so I think we've shifted towards like an environment where administration are rewarding people for being pro- innovation versus kind of like pro- enforcement. Um, and it creates like a whole different set of like um uh incentives, but also like I think there are a lot of people at these agencies that are pro- innovation um but weren't really being given the the you know the space to kind of push some of these new

ideas u in previous years. And so I think we're in a dramatically different place from like a political environment perspective as far as like crypto goes. Um and so I I think a lot of people um are pushing forward ideas that maybe were you know on the shelf for a few years or just now feel comfortable doing. >> There's another innovation here like a regulatory innovation which is the potential exploration of uh combining the CFTC and the SEC under Atkins. And you know, Carl, I think you mentioned earlier in this segment that there's really no need for a lot of the protections that were put in place under the legacy system if we are to upgrade.

So, how how do you think about making this regulatory shift? Is this continuing in in a positive note to to make this uh merger between these two agencies? >> Um, I don't have a strong point of view. I think it's interesting that we do have this question of is, you know, going back to orange groves in 1929, is this a security or a commodity? it seems like an outdated set of infrastructure and rubrics that we're using. So like generally it seems like a positive development um streamlining streamlining the regulatory process creating clarity where right now there's limited clarity.

Um I'm sure if they were combined the market structure bill would be easier to uh push through than it is today. Um so it generally seems positive but I'm sure there's some unintended consequences that may arise. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, I think from the from the lens of of having Gary Gendler be the and his administration be the cause of so much fugazi tech debt, social layer divide, Dowo structures, uh, lack of of efficiency in the industry, it really feels like like slowly but surely between the new administration and as well as the the the newer set of of uh, entrepreneurs coming into the space, better talent, we're just kind of slowly unbundling a lot of these

uh like it feels like it's just like a bunch of rubber bands. We're just taking off one by one until we get back to like the core, which I think is just building really really better technology, helping, you know, the financial system go into this new era of internet-based finance, 24/7, uh, you know, verifiability, all the properties that we enjoy about crypto and blockchain that we're now used to, bringing that digital asset infrastructure to, uh, the the real world. And frankly, I think maybe we can blame our blame a social layer a bit inside of the way that we thought about it, but frankly, I think that we were kind of forced to think about adoption in a in a in a way that was coming from a a feeling of needing to be protected and not wanting to, you know, take legal

liability. And so, you know, I think it's a really positive development to see uh, you know, as Bo mentioned, just this shift towards in innovation and broadly seeing the industry untangle itself slowly but surely here. Bo, Bo, do you think Gendler was just that bad or do you think this administration is just that good? >> Uh, I don't I don't know if I'd make like a definitive statement there. I would just say it's different, right? I would say it's different and I think like the current scenario or current situation is definitely much more pro- innovation. One thing I will say though is I don't think we don't need any regulation. I don't think no regulation is the a little scammy, doesn't it? Sometimes

like and it's like I'm like, "Yeah, you're right. Some of it does feel not so great." And and it really sucks for people that are trying to build real things and like kind of like innovate in this space. And so, um, I I think no regulation isn't the answer either, but I also think there's like a little bit of a burden on us as an industry to better like self-regulate to a certain extent and and hold ourselves to a higher standard because um that is also a limiter to growth. If if a lot of the world thinks that crypto is just a scam, we're not going to achieve all the things that like great things that Carl was talking about earlier about how the whole world has access to these financial products.

>> Yeah. um guys kind of come into a wrap here in the next five 10 minutes when we're thinking about this you know broad stable coin landscape right now we're operating within you know around I think around like let's call like 200 billion or so maybe 300 billion sorry I think it's probably a closer estimate it's probably around 270 total right now I I think it's pretty clear that we're on a road to a trillion dollars of stable coin supply here if not multiple trillions um you know I'm curious what you guys believe that path looks like from the regulatory perspective, from uh integrations into traditional finance perspective, like is there going to be something that is a big, you know, a big potential win or milestone that we hit

that just unlocks so much more stable coin supply or, you know, in a similar way that we saw DeFi infrastructure like a and and Morpho and Compound and Uniswap and these names kind of now become much bigger as a result of these treasury companies. and these treasury companies start to bring in capital on chain institutions will is it just the same driving forces that are going to drive DeFi to you know a trillion dollars of total TVL uh you know is that same force going to be driving stable coins to trillions in supply or what do you guys believe the driving forces of that uh increase in total supply will be uh over the next year or two and maybe uh Carl you can start us off

>> that's a that's a 50-page doc that I could that I could write on. So, I'll try to give you the 30 seconds to one minute version. Um, I think the obvious things are the emergence, uh, or the continued growth of consumer banking globally, uh, where, you know, using stable coin native banking. I think that's just an obvious one that's going to continue to grow. Um, it's also going to help increase crypto mind share more broadly. And, you know, one of the things I found is once money goes onto the blockchain, it very rarely goes off. And so once the, you know, world's citizens start to put their money into Tether and into other, you know, stable coins and products, it's very unlikely to leave, right? So I think that's going to be a huge growth lever that's going to have compounding returns. Um, the one

and I think like banks in general can really, you know, increase by tens or hundreds of billions of dollars almost overnight. Some of these settlement flows if they actually start to adopt stable coin rails. Um, I think they're going to be slower than people think even in this optimistic regulatory environment, but I think that is a major growth lever. The one that's probably the biggest dark horse that I feel like people don't talk about enough is private credit. We've seen a lot of teams and now even uh funds forming around private credit on chain. And if you're trying to raise capital, it could be anything from you know any sort of debt instrument that you need going through the traditional process is extremely challenging. Even in the terms of like fund formation on the venture side, the amount of documents and

process to like create a fund is extremely laborious and you have to hire outside firms to help you manage that process. But be able to put these things transparently on chain is actually a radical growth lever especially for mid and smaller sized companies. They need access to debt but are locked out of the current financial system today. almost every day of every single week. Now, I'm getting an opportunity to put private credit on chain or some technology platform that's streamlining this whole process. And to me, that is an incredibly exciting area that's actually going to help business and capitalism more broadly. And nobody's talking about private credit. So, I was I've been spending a lot of time there. There's some really terrific builders in the space. Um along that is like the whole vaulting process of things like Upshift

and Midas and others where they're basically allowing capital formation on chain for funds for businesses to grow. Um so that's one that's going to grow very quickly. >> Um I agree with Carl on a lot of those. Um one of the things I was thinking about on this topic um was you know we've talked about there's you know whatever $200 billion of stable coin um uh market cap today. Um I was recently reading about kind of like some of these very large brokerages just in the US like kind of like the Charles Schwabs of the world um who alone hold um you know tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars of cash on platform. And so one of the things is like well what would it take to get those types of customers to like flip everything to stable coins

because that is like overnight just like eclipsees the entire stable coin market cap today. And there's obviously regulatory things. Um there's also kind of like kind of a mundane uh topic that most people don't know about, but it's like uh how um accounting is done around what's considered cash and cash equivalents. Like what can these regulated companies or these public companies actually hold either on behalf of customers or on their own balance sheet? Um and getting stable coins to be treated as cash and cash equivalents. Um I think is a huge unlock to getting like massive amounts of inflows into stable coins. And so, um, that's what I'm like I I think like obviously the global banking and all that stuff I think is going to be really interesting and it's like what I'm personally most interested in. But really when you're looking at

like what are going to be like the big number swings, it's going to be like some of these massive brokerages coming in and say like, "Hey, I'm turning all my cash on on platform into a stable place, right?" And like that's like one stroke, you know, obviously doesn't happen overnight, but theoretically a single platform could add a hundred billion dollars of crypto market cap um if they decided to to take that step. And so that's really exciting to me and I think that's going to like get us to a trillion faster. >> Some could say trillions. Trillions, Carl. Trillions. Plasma mainet tomorrow, baby. We've been waiting for this for a while. >> Let's go. >> Let's go, guys. It's been a pleasure.

Uh, thank you for your time. It's it's over. It's past midnight now in Korea. It's officially Thursday as you you'll see on on the feed when it goes live. It's says Thursday night. I think it's a good time to wrap. We're let Rob sleep. Bo, Carl, thank you for your time. It's been a great session. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for having us on, guys. >> Thanks for coming, guys. >> Yeah. >> See you next time. >> Sweet. Well, Rob, great great episode of Stabled Up. Really really was uh just well well done. I mean, those guys had great takes on on each of the specific moments. I think that the biggest one for me that I want to take away, well, one of the biggest ones is I'm glad that Carl brought up Pride Credit because I thought that was really really something

that I've been watching on Artedway XYZ. been checking it out, checking it out and it's been happening. Um, and then the other thing is that on the CFTC side of things, it is pretty compelling that uh we have the ability to merge these two and then get financial markets to settle in stable coins. I think I think that concept of settlement is what will get uh traditional finance people most excited about stable coins. Yes, they are quick to send. Yes, it's free, but like people trust wires. And I know Carl made a lot of points about how it's pain in the ass. Trust me, we all know that uh it is a pain in the ass. But I think that that like instant settlement as soon as Ethereum settles it blocks and you can verifiably provably know that that transaction has settled. Now it is

kind of the same thing as like the speed of the wire transfer, but it's that it's that instant settlement feature that I think will get uh will allow a lot more flexibility in traditional markets. So that's cool. Yeah. Um and then Tether, the last thing is just 500 bill. I mean, what a behemoth number. Yeah. >> Yeah, it is. It's past midnight in Korea. I think I was starting to ask these guys questions that they didn't really have answers to, and that's probably that's probably a a result of my question asking. >> Um, if they were if they were still on stage, I'd probably Well, thinking back to kind of what you mentioned is that uh you actually mentioned Arthur Hayes.

>> Yeah. >> And his 126x, you know, price prediction for Hyperl and then, you know, he subsequently dumped. But the reason he has this 126x price prediction is a result of his expectation that there's three trillion coming in stable coins. >> Yeah. >> And he he kind of does this math. >> Oh, he does some math. All right. >> He certainly does do some math. We all love the math. and and he walks through like okay if we equate the revenue generated by Hyperlid as a function of the stable coins issued in in the in circulation in general on chain then you know we can back into a price for the asset whether that's accurate or not

we'll see that yet to be known is a long way to go >> it certainly does and it's not going to get there unless uh unless uh either One of two things happens. Either Arthur stops dumping or John Charb's proposal goes through. So if I see Jeff around Soul. >> Yeah, let him know. >> All right, guys. That's it for Stabled Up episode two. I think that also about wraps up the stream today, guys. It's been a great great stream. Thank you for tuning in and we'll see you guys on the flip side. Peace out. Much love. See you tomorrow.