Rollup TV: AI Supercycle, Rumor Mill, Privy, Stabled Up

Transcript

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Bang. Bang. >> Welcome back. It's the Rollup TV. >> Bang. >> Interesting developments of foot. >> What are we doing today, Rob? We're introducing uh we're introducing a new segment. Rumor mill. >> Confetti for the new segment. >> Rumor mill is coming out today. Launching fresh launch. Let's go. >> Yeah. Let's let's get into uh into what we're seeing out there. Um >> chat's popping. What's going on, chat?

>> Gad. >> Gonad. >> Gmonad. >> Wow. >> Gad, >> why do you have a crown? GM. Something special's going on. I can feel it. >> Wait, who said that? Who said why you have a crown? >> In the chat has a crown watcher. That's not just a YouTube watcher. That's a watcher. Watcher. >> Really? And he's got a crown, don't you? >> Things are happening. >> Wow, I have a crown. How come? I think it's because you've been coming to the chat and vibing, which is sick. Thanks, watcher. We'll get you more and more of these crowns fired up.

Um, guys, so stuff is happening, that's for sure. We got an amazing lineup today. We got some AI Chads. We've got some uh tokenization chats. We've got Hen Henry from Privy just got bought out by Stripe. Um yeah, guys, which should be a should be a fun segment. We want to rip through some uh different tweets and things to show you guys before we get started. So, I'm going to pull some some of these up and uh yeah, we'll get our first guest in here slowly but surely. Gmonad is right. Monad has officially announced their airdrop claim date. So, that's pretty stoked. People are excited about that. Um, and I think reasonably so. So, why don't we actually just start there? I'm gonna pull that up. Uh, and we can talk about what our expectations

are for Monet because I think people have a lot of high expectations for this airdrop and I think that they're going to do it differently. So, um, yeah, we'll get that up and we will see what people think about G Monad. Um, so yeah, Rob, what's your take? Do you think it's going to be a huge huge launch? So, Monet Airdrop claim portal to open Tuesday, October 14th. Rob, what do you think about this? I think that they're going to do it differently. I'll explain my thesis in a sec. >> Um, I agree. I do think that, uh, look, this has been a long time coming. Monet has been building for years. Uh, it is an extremely hyped up launch, which is very, very exciting. uh they've been the

subject of a lot of hate uh pretty much because uh because they've been building for so long they haven't had a mainet launch and they haven't uh really shipped anything except for some memes in the community and some fun playing cards and I think now all of that is about to change and we're about to see if Monad lives up to the hype. So it's a really exciting launch. How this airdrop goes I think will be pretty interesting. they announced and launched those Monad cards. You and I both got one. Uh we were also added to a pretty suspicious or auspicious list, the airdrop question mark list, which was pretty interesting.

Um and I think they are going to go about it a different way. I think from what I've heard, they're going to require certain tasks of the people that are eligible for the airdrop. I think it's no longer you just go to this website and you press a button and you claim your airdrop. I think they're only going to have the airdrop open for a a small period of time, maybe a few weeks at most. And I think you're going to have to verify some sort of social credential, maybe the playing card, maybe a wallet, maybe a a Twitter or some some Discord. And once you uh legitimize your eligibility, I think they're going to make you do something with that. And that might be uh use the chain. It might be use an app. It might

be deposit some critical amount of funds. I think they're going to um make their users check multiple boxes so that they can start to claim real human users and not bots on their on their chain. >> Yeah, I think so too. I mean I think they've seen I mean that's the benefit like when we had intern on we we were talking about what the benefit is of kind of coming to market later and you get to see a lot of these experiments play out and kind of act and and build differently as a result of them and so this is going to be one of those things where they get to act differently and build differently so um we'll see what happens on the 14th the cali market right now is running at like

61% for before November for the launch So, we'll see what happens there. I thought this tweet was pretty funny and I thought this tweet came back to a conversation that I had with Avachal and Mike Mike Dudas, which was around uh or actually it was Avatal and Mike from Etherfi. And Avachal was explaining how crypto is is if Bitcoin, you know, ascends to the million-dollar mark in the next 10 years or so, we are going to have more crypto billionaires than any other industry. and like the the general population of power and wealth is going to be um you know centered in the hands of crypto billionaires. So think Brad

Garlinghouse, think CZ, think Justin Sun, think um >> Shane Copin, >> think Shane Cop >> from KHI. >> All these different types of people. So >> founders, builders, >> you know, I'm glad to be in this in in this list here. uh one of 240,000. Um not quite in the one of 450, but I do know a couple friends who are in the one of 450 club. And maybe Arthur Hayes is the only person we've talked to in the 36 club, if he's even up there. So, >> I have I have a feeling we've talked to some more people in the 36 club. M >> it's a little bit tough to pinpoint the 36 and separate them from the 450, but I think we've had uh several probably double digits out of the 4 if you

combine the 450 and the 36 makes up almost 500 486. I think we've talked to maybe 10 to maybe 1% of them. >> Yeah. I just think that this is awesome because it's like look we're gonna we're moving towards a world where um like I said the crypto do the crypto dominated billionaires and millionaires is just going to keep happening. So super bullish. There's one more there's one more paradigm that there or element to this which is the the transfer of wealth from the boomers and and you know the the the that that generation to millennials and zoomers and Gen X and that whole generation.

>> Yeah. >> And this is like a major turn. Yes. major shift >> as a result of just, you know, the boomers getting older and shifting their wealth to the younger generation and then where the generation the younger generation chooses to invest their wealth. And so as a it's it's a compound effect of this industry and this this sector growing bigger and absorbing more of the wealth both in nominal terms and real terms. I just think it's awesome that we're going to have a strong amount or like a a significant portion of the world's millionaires will be because of of this industry. So, on another note, um Max Marion says it's easier for a

20-year-old kid to raise $2 million than to get a job. So yeah, I don't know what I don't know how accurate that is, but I think this is a pretty indicative take as to where we are in the world in terms of, you know, the cycle, in terms of the larger monetary cycle, um, and all of that. So the fact that it's this easy for people to raise capital is pretty wild. And yeah, I mean, yeah. So, Voxick says, "Where is Nick when Allora mainet launch this month?" Yeah, I think that's why we have Nick on today to talk about that and other he's coming up in five minutes

as Robbie lovely chops. Rob, what's your take on this? E is it easier to raise $2 million than to get a job? I I think it's obviously a bit of a stretch, but what's your take? I'm like, why does this matter anyway? Is it just like like who cares? >> I mean, it's just funny. I think this guy's just making a joke. Uh but I it's funny because it's true. Um it also it depends on the person. Like if you're anyone can go work at McDonald's right now. Like, >> but no 20-year-old when they can make more by sports game. They can literally stand on the side of the road with a bucket, get a few bucks, and then gamble that on sports or crypto and make more

money than they would working a job for eight hours or nine hours during the day. >> I mean, that's debatable. >> I I think there I think that's math. >> People mostly lose at these types of things. Well, eventually they lose, but you could go and you could find $50 on the side of the road and then put that into a a gambling platform and get a $200 deposit bonus. >> Yeah. >> And and that's it. And then you get money for free. >> I think this is more fun these apps. >> I think this is more of like the AI market is so hot that if you have any sort of idea, you can get funding for it. And it's easier to do that than it is to go get like a highle job right now because the job market's so squeezed.

And so there's just like this complete imbalance of the system where we're like we're running low on founders. People aren't wanting to found companies anymore, but there's a ton of people looking for jobs. So >> there I mean, are there a ton of people looking for jobs? >> I think it's pretty hard to get a job right now. I I know we're freaking pretty far removed from reality, but it's pretty hard to get a job right now. I think young people though for the most part are able to find there's no there's not a lot of like movement in the job market from my understanding like people >> aren't getting laid off for the most part people had jobs and they are staying in their jobs and you're right people that are looking for jobs may not find them but also people aren't getting

fired. >> Yeah. >> So as a result of that like there unemployment is relatively low. Yeah. and that's just a number that we can track. But at the same time, it's really easy to go and raise. And I think that's a function of both the economy running hot as well as um the the like the fervor and the sentiment in the market being being so ridiculous. Yeah. that I I mean VCs have had their assets appreciate so much that it is worthwhile to put some small check behind even just the most remote possibility of an idea catching some fire.

>> Yep. Especially when rates are low and like where else are you going to put your money type of thing. It's just like but basic like we're in a we're in a place where the AI investment is so high and so hungry to put their capital somewhere but it's the job market is just really not easy right now. So it's just a really trippy phenomena. >> I don't know. Unemployment's low. >> Is it? I wanted to pull this up. Um we had a couple we I mean we got a bunch of stuff to go through. I uh woke up this morning and I saw this on my uh counter at my at my house. Um and I thought this was pretty sick. Wall Street Journal, top of the Wall Street Journal. Uh NY owner bets on crypto firm. Obviously

it's Poly Market yesterday's big news. Um pretty just wild headline for crypto as an industry. So amazingly bullish. >> Yeah. Um my mother called me yesterday. She was listening to NPR and they did a segment on prediction markets and mentioned Kulchi. So it's like >> Yep. >> No, >> it's absolutely blowing up, man. >> Yeah, dude. We're about to find out if Shane is the next SPF or the next uh the next Satoshi. >> It's funny those both the guys, Trek and Shane are both like very interesting and unique in their own ways. Um >> Oh, yeah.

>> One thing that I think is is uh coming up is this debasement trade. It's already happening. Bitcoin is just not catching up to gold right now. But I think if you look at it like this, it's a really interesting way to look at it. So in USD, the NASDAQ is up 165%, S&P 102, home price up 56%. In gold terms, the NASDAQ's only up 7%. The S&P is down 18% and home prices are down 37%. Um, in Bitcoin terms, the NASDAQ is down 78%. S&P is down 84% and home prices are down 87%.

How do you even rectify this since co last five years? It's the the basement trade. >> I think home prices are going to go down even more. >> Really? No way. If they keep lowering rates, it's going to reignite the real estate market. >> They they want people to be buying homes and if they keep going up, like they're just people aren't buying home. the investment companies might buy the homes and maybe that's what happens. But I I think we're un Trump's also part of his policy. They're trying to lower home prices so that the younger generation has the opportunity to buy homes and we are at this critical inflection point now where we either make that a reality or we go into the reality of you own

nothing and be >> as a homeowner. I don't give a damn about your lack of ability to buy a property. Rob, sorry about that. You should have bought it 5 years ago, bud. Good luck out there. I bought Bitcoin instead and I'm up 87%. All right, guys. We're going to uh pull up our AI super cycle episode number four. We're going to get the guests up. I think they're ready in the back. Um Rob's going to buy a house. He's going to buy a farm. Um just need Bitcoin to go a little higher. And uh we're going to protect our asses from the deep the debasement of worthless, hopeless fiat currencies. That's what we're doing here on the show. Um, so guys, be right back.

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All righty, guys. Welcome back to AI Supercycle. This is episode 4, our premier open-source private AI oriented show presented by Near, the leader in AI in crypto. Perhaps Nick from Alloro is set to challenge that. But today we are going to say that Near is the leader in crypto times AI pushing forward with their intent with Zcash recently as well as just broad adoption for aentic transactions and they have a very very cool new private LLM feature set being launched. so I can tell chatbt about all my girl problems without Sam Alman knowing. Guys, we've got an amazing lineup. We got Danny from Architect.

We've got Nick from Allora, of course, Rob. Guys, welcome to the show. >> Thanks for having us. Really appreciate it guys. >> Yeah, awesome. Um, pleasure to have you guys on. Uh, tons of uh, speculation, all kinds of things that are happening in the space. Before we jump into it, uh, Danny's first time on the show. would love to get a a quick intro and uh tell us a little bit about how you found yourself in crypto AI. >> Absolutely. Yeah, it's great to be on the show, guys. Uh my name is Danny Sers. I'm a partner here at Archetype. We're a New York-based early stage crypto VC. We're in our third fund. Just launched that and we've long had a very big thesis in terms of crypto's ability to play a critical role in the trajectory of AI over the next years,

decades, and beyond. Our view is crypto has a unique ability to impact AI across three frontiers really around access around critical infrastructure and around killer applications. We think we've largely solved that first bucket in a really really important way. But our focus is now on how do we enable truly critical mission critical infrastructure to take AI to the next level and as well as a new field of killer apps that make use of what blockchains are uniquely positioned to do around distribution coordinizationization and >> awesome. Um maybe we can we could start just by opening it up with the current meta, the current landscape if you will.

All of the adoption that we're h we're seeing in terms of real um growth in the market for teams that are live, teams that are liquid and and launched. They're they're a lot of the boring stuff. It's it's what we would call the return of fundamentals, the payments, the remittances, this kind of financial engineering. and we haven't yet seen the real tangible results of crypto AI. So maybe you guys could could just kind of help us understand how where we are at the stage of development. Is it okay that we haven't seen a lot of real tangible things since the the era of you know reply bot AI agents on Twitter? Um generally where where do you guys see us on on the innovation curve?

>> Yeah Danny, you want to start? >> Happy to. I think it's a great question. A critical framing that we use from our side is understanding the difference between speculative assets and solutions. And that goes to that first bucket of where crypto can have an impact on AI around democratizing access and exposure to the upside of the field. And so our belief is that even though you might look at sort of the capital deployment and the broad market maps of all these different participants that make up what we think of as crypto AAI today, the truth is most of that has been launched to solve that first need around giving people the ability to speculate and get exposure to AI.

They're not actually fulfilling needs at every layer of that different stack whether it's compute, data, models, applications, etc. And that's very important. The reality is conventional markets fall very short in giving people the ability to get that exposure. So that's a real need. I don't want to underplay that. But in terms of your question around where the real impact comes into play, part of that is just look, this is hard stuff. AI in the traditional lens is moving at light speed. We're basically playing catch-up in real time to something that is moving so quickly. But the other part is it's taken time to build trust and attract Sier talent from the AI community. I mean, we have amazing talent in crypto, but we need to bring in some of that frontier talent that comes out of AI.

And it's taken time to explain to them the value proposition of crypto, rails, and blockchains to give them time to to really internalize us as a credible frontier for the development of the future of AI. We're seeing a turning point right now in terms of some of the most interesting development happening at a distributed sense, both in terms of model development, around data collection, to your point, around early form factors of killer apps. I mean, the agentic field of of Q4ish of last year was not terribly interesting, but at least it was different. And so, all of that is maturing in a way where yes, we've solved bucket number one, give people access to the upside of AI in a liquid form. Now, we're moving into let's make a real impact at the infrastructure and tooling layer, and let's drive forward net new applications

that are intelligent and onchain. >> Yeah, I I I agree a lot with with what Danny said as well. I I mean like I I think like a core piece of this is that this infrastructure is just difficult to build. I think like we're essentially having to rebuild the entire AI stack in a kind of decentralized form factor and that's just a non-trivial issue. I think um we obviously saw some some sort of early networks come to market in in some of the I guess like more straightforward problem spaces within the AI stack. I think like GPU marketplaces have been around for a long time now and stuff like that. I think we've seen some really interesting progress in the other layers of the stack like around like data labeling, data provisioning.

Obviously, Grass has grown to be really big, other protocols like that. I think um we're still seeing some of the infrastructure be built out and and be brought to market around uh like the execution layer of the AI stack, which is like the the kind of suite of protocols or networks that enable models to basically run in decentralized environments. Uh I think we'll start to see a lot of those start to come online, gain adoption in Q4, Q1, beyond. Um and uh yeah, the infrastructure just hasn't been laid yet. I think um agents are probably the most like immediately viable kind of sector within AI. I don't think that's what agents were Q4, Q1 of of last year and early this year. I think uh like we've approached agent development as an industry uh in a a

kind of misdirected way. I think we focused on one half of the agent puzzle, which is capital formation. Obviously, tokens are really effective at at forming capital. If you create an agent that essentially acts as as sort of an autonomous KO or an autonomous attention seeker with a token attached to it, doesn't matter what it's doing, it's going to form capital. But once it has that capital, these agents don't do anything interesting with them. And so I think there's a a new wave of of projects, companies in the space that are building agents in a like a more productive way that can actually both form capital and then do something productive with it. That's why I think like DeFi uh is going to to be this this kind of uh like de facto uh environment

in which this kind of nextgen of of agents is going to operate. We've seen some early stuff around this, but I think that becomes the the kind of main application space or user space uh within the the cryptoi space. So, it's these things are just coming. I think the these kind of cycles to build these things out of of uh launching these things is just longer than sometimes people in the crypto space are happy with. We've gotten used to a bunch of infrastructure existing, it being trivial to just fork a bunch of stuff, making small nuances, and then resulting in this like super fast feedback loop. I think uh AI and crypto is just a fundamentally new category that needs that initial buildout period basically.

>> So Nick on that on that frame of thought right we've seen the broader kind of onchain landscape and just general like blockchain infrastructure we've gone from like you know you you you could call like chain centric where users are using a chain um you know then you know you could say that we went through like this intentric framework where it was like you intend to you know do a crosschain transaction and then you have these solvers filling these transactions. You can even now say that we're moving to like app ccentric where if I just want to use poly market, I don't even care what chain or what intent. I'm just I'm bypassing all that.

I'm just going to polyomarker. I'm just going to um you know, I'm just going to unis swap or whatever it is. >> You've you've kind of thought deeply about this objective centric AI model and like frame of thought with regards to how we should approach blockchain development when it comes to AI. Is that like a evolution of a previous thought process in in in a similar kind of model that the broader crypto landscape went through? Or maybe you could just kind of walk us through like what the the different like centric models that we've had so far in AI development in crypto, why you think objective centric is the current and maybe even what's next.

>> Yeah, for sure. I think it's a great question. Um I I guess just to start the like to define objective centric I think um it's it's useful to sort of like examine the paradigm of how we interact with AI generally today not just within the crypto space and then we can get into sort of like what the crypto space uniquely enables in in AI paradigms. I think if any of us here want to interact with AI if any developer or company wants to integrate AI into something they're building they have to do so in a very model ccentric paradigm they have to kind of survey the entire universe of AI models that exist. uh assess which is the best model for their given use case and then lock into that model and models are always changing. use cases and circumstances around use cases are

changing. And so this this like pretty heavy lift of of doing this analysis and then uh model lockin is is like a meaningful source of inefficiency in how we interact with AI. And it also results in the kind of market structure we have in AI today where this where's this kind of like hyper consolidation around singledigit number of of enterprises that have built the models that the majority of of AI consumers use. And when you when you exist in a a market that has such consolidation you are are essentially excluding massive amounts of resources kind of hard resources such as data compute things like that softer resources for lack of a better term like talent other models etc. And so it creates this really inefficient market

structure. And so the idea of objective centric AI is instead of the consumer or the user of AI doing this work of looking for the best model locking in doing this continuously and ad nauseium is you create environments leveraging decentralized networks not too dissimilar to what we've done with intents and other systems in in kind of the the blockchain or crypto space and then enable users to just specify what they want AI to do and what they define AI doing that thing well is and then allow these kind ofic efficient market environments to produce the best output as a function of that that kind of objective. And so you remove all of the onus or all the overhead from users in needing to know anything about the models they're interacting with. Just

allow them to specify what they want and then let this efficient market of models produce that. And this is like very analogous to to transactions and intents like you were saying like like before intents the only way any of us could interact with blockchains was by determining what we wanted to do and then walking back a specific set of functions or state transitions we wanted to to make on chain to achieve that effect. This is a ton of overhead. It's suboptimal often we're not the best at path finding and so it results in this again consolidation of DeFi protocols, consolidation of uh of kind of environments in which we interact with.

When intents came along, it essentially offloads all of that path finding, all of that discovery to a specialized set of market participants and solvers such that users could just specify what they want to happen. This specialized market of of solvers could then figure out the best path for it. Results in way less overhead for the users. It results in way more optimal path finding for each transaction as it's going through as a fun as a function of it being coordinated by these competitive markets. And that's really the key of what decentralized networks or crypto enables. I think it's it they are like crypto and decentralized networks are more than anything tools for instantiating tightly scoped hyperoptimized market environments for provisioning different types of resources whether that's transaction

paths whether that's model outputs whether that's energy in this in the case of Bitcoin compute trust whatever it is. And so that's the real meaningful unlock in crypto AI, I think, and and where we're going to see a lot of the most tangible benefit in in starting to uh refactor AI in a kind of decentralized form factor. >> Anything to add there, Danny? >> I think Nick said it incredibly well and it sort of alludes to one thing that we also really believe strongly here at Architect, which is there's too much emphasis in almost this lazy take around blockchains purely offering decentralization to AI. And our view is blockchains offer so much more in terms of composability and coordination, the ability to scale critical resource markets uh that AI needs to to go to the next level in terms of giving agents the

tooling that the almost like exoskeleton that they need to be functional. And so there's this incredible amount of dynamism that blockchains bring to the table. And to Nick's point, the important thing is to give people the freedom to sort of think through and express a whole range of scenarios and use cases that they want and then use blockchains to actually enable and scale those which kind of brings us to the to this you know paper that you've drafted and and put out around the benchmarks. So I think we've established here the frame of thought for how um we should be thinking about basically the intersection of these two industries on chain and kind of you know analogized it to this intent kind of world and you

know Nick in your in Allora's design there are actually quite literally solvers in intents used in this model but you know if we're going to analyze Allora or we're going to analyze some of these networks I I don't think that we can look at something like plasma and be like, oh, look at the stable coin TVL and the amount of yield on DeFi and like think about how that, you know, ties into the token valuation of a of a given token or what that network should be worth. Danny, you seem to think that we should have new benchmarks for AI when it comes to this intersection. Maybe you could just give us the, you know, 30,000 foot view on what this looks like and then we can drill into it.

>> I think you're absolutely spot on and we sort of frame it as like there's benchmarks and there's evals. The benchmarks broadly speaking are what I was alluding to earlier which is you know give people democratized access to the exposure of AI's upside build critical infrastructure that drives forward the future of of foundational work in AI and unlock net new killer apps but across every single part of the stack the evals what you're alluding to differ tremendously and what we've historically done a pretty poor job of is really thinking through what those evals are from the perspective of the stakeholders at any part of that stack and building around them. we typically end up operating in these siloed echo chambers where we build things that nobody really cares for in the real world. And so at any different part of that stack, it'll be different. So for

compute, for example, it'll be everything from, you know, latency and uptime of GPUs, the cost per token and the ability to generate them fast. It'll be around uh how can you scale up for you know latency insensitive long duration uh inference workflows. So it's all of these different things that matter at every different part of the stack. Likewise at data, you know, it isn't as simple as just let's throw tokens to get people to supply their private data. You have to think through the market structures around what data looks like. How do you build post-processing and really make the data from raw to useful? Who you're selling into? How do you think about economics posts selling into and sort of creating a durable ongoing return of value to the providers of that data. And so the point that we were making in the article was

simply that at every part of that stack, there's a set of evals that are very specific and guide whether we're building useful things, things that will actually create and capture value. And it's very very important that we as an ecosystem of participants are very clear about what those are and are building towards them versus sort of like the highle blind uh approaches that I think we've historically taken in many other parts of the stack. Yeah, it it's usually the hot shiny thing gets all the attention, gets all the the technical people to kind of flock around it and we don't really zoom out and think, okay, well, is this thing really going to be useful? Um, and and so when you're applying like Dan, maybe maybe we could go through just a fun exercise here like if you're applying those evals to Aurora, right? And and

you're looking at Aurora and you're looking, okay, how do we know this thing is really useful? How do you look at it? What are you looking for? or what are the questions that you're asking of Allora the network and then we can kind of you know come to an understanding and then use these general rules to apply to to you know other projects as well. I think it's a great question and there's a few right and so first off you know maybe to to the point Nick was making around the ability to to give people the freedom to express a range of things they want to execute on chain and actually solving for you know it's not too dissimilar to thinking about how bridges work today right the things that are going to matter to those people are the ability to first off express all

these different things that they're creatively coming up with and then actually solve and execute on in a way that is reliable that is costefficient that uh unlocks net new outcomes that they historically couldn't whether that's opport opportunities to trade and be participants in a very sophisticated ecosystem that was previously off limits to them, whether it's around the alpha that they're generating and sort of their actual returns, whether it's around the time that it frees up to them. And so, it's around understanding what these people are actually looking for and then being able to create the evals around that to say yes, in fact, we are building systems that are delivering on that value proposition.

And likewise, around the ideas of, you know, broader swarms of intelligence, right? one of the big value props that we have in crypto around can we sort of scale horizontally to drive more intelligent overall systems. Again, the the approach there should be very simple, right? It should be around first off looking at the net incremental contribution from any one of those participants and then looking at overall is the system getting smarter as a result of that horizontal expansion and you can use similar evals that you would uh in a traditional industry where okay maybe it's around a specific use case of the overall you swarm intelligence that we're using in a a a specific enterprise context or a retail context or as a gaming or enter entertainment piece. Um, but in any one of those scenarios, it's just about understanding what people are looking for. And I think

Nick and Allora have been somewhat uniquely positioned over the last couple years to think very granularly about like what actually matters here and then how do we meet those needs versus sort of like highle pie in the sky ideas. Nick and so you know one of the things that I think that we've been pushing on in this show that is probably one of the evals that we think about is you know we have the general kind of privacy and user ownership when using LLMs and you know the organic nature of of data sets you know prior to using an LLM these types of things but one of the bigger concepts is also about verifiability um and and so I think one of the evals that Danny Robbie and myself would be looking for is how do we guarantee this level of trust when these AI

outputs are probabilistic by nature. How do you verify and create a verification system for trust based on either economics reputation cryptographic proofs? Like what is the what is the stack that you think is the best format to guarantee trust for AI outputs knowing that they're probabistic? How does Laura approach this? How do you kind of see this uh problem being solved? >> Yeah, I I think it's really use case dependent. I think some use cases require different levels of of sort of verifiability than others like like some things will require like like uh like ZK verifiability of of uh an output's fidelity and some will require sort of lower fidelity means of verifiability.

how how we've sort of approached the problem is uh in in creating a kind of environment that produces I guess like economic verifiability in in that we haven't like like concerned ourselves as much with this problem of of sort of like decentralized execution of models which I think it goes handinhand with like like more of these kind of hard forms of verifiability cryptographic etc uh of these models that sort of lives outside of the scope of the network. What we've done instead is we've created an environment where the the kind of mechanism design of the network uh ensures that the the sort of best responses are being emitted to the the ultimate consumers of these outputs as possible. People are are rewarded if they're producing good responses as a

function of the rest of the the sort of network participants uh and their relative reputation and they're punished otherwise. And so I think in that you create uh you you sort of subvert the need for some of this hard verifiability when consuming AI. AI is a nondeterministic form of compute. It's very difficult to verify. There's a lot of uh like great projects working on that. I think for us it's been more about how do we create an environment where uh like one's uh returns are are based solely on on how effectively they're able to produce good responses and I I guess like trustworthy responses in this kind of environment. So people are emitting inferences on Allora. Those things are being all aggregated together and then the rewards for for those uh individual kind of model contributors is

being distributed based on how how useful each of their model outputs was. We don't even care where people are running models on the network. People are running closed source models on the network. You know the best forms of AI today are still closed source. And so trying to tackle this problem of sort of hard verifiability and also encompassing these kind of closed source models is is uh uh still I think like a fairly difficult challenge. >> And I think to Nick's point actually eval many many scenarios are a good way that you can sort of solve for the same thing that verifiability would. In other words like as long as you're delivering on what users expect, you know, let's say it's a an agentic trading protocol, right? As long as it is unlocking the performance and the other use cases that people expect of it, it doesn't matter

if you're actually running the model that people expect you're running on the back end on the exact piece of hardware that you're claiming or in fact you've locked a quant in a basement who's doing raw calculations by hand and then putting the trades on your behalf. As long as it's working, people aren't going to care. Where they start to care is are you starting to deviate from the value proposition that they promised them. And then the questions come into play like are you cheating by using lower grade hardware or a less performant model and things like that. Now, of course, that's totally separate from much higher stakes use cases around, you know, let's say medicine or private data and things like that where verifiability does become a lot more relevant. But I do think for a lot of more general purpose use cases, you don't necessarily need hard

verifiability. You could approximate it using the right evals over time. H >> how do you guys anticipate that we're going to blend some of the principles that are are alive and well in crypto and and without becoming maximalist and decentralization or that kind of ideology? there's plenty of web two style AI centric uh principles that we can also apply to as we're kind of building out this sector that's blended of the two and you know we kind of get caught up in our ideology in the crypto world but there there's and you know to Nick's point a lot of these good models are are closed source still they they've built this without uh UX detriments super easy to use these kinds of things what what are some of the principles in

in web 2 AI centric SF development What are some of the principles and the ideas that are shining through now as I think we're realizing in crypto world look we don't have to be decentralization maxis hyperlquid is is is you know capturing a lot of market share people are kind of coming to this realization that it's this practical era we're building for the real user and we're kind of leaving aside some of those you know the core ideologies they're they're still making it but like we're not maximalists about it. what how do we blend these two and and what are some of those principles that we can draw out?

>> Yeah, I I I think and Danny, I'm cur curious to hear your answer too, but I I think we've done like a pretty bad job of this to date. Uh for one, I to what Danny said earlier, I agree. I think it it's been very tricky to get some of the AI industry into the crypto AI industry. I think like crypto has has a somewhat troubled past obviously and so that that's sort of marred people's perception of the space and that's contributed to it. But I think in some ways like ideology is sort of held on this pedestal as as I think this this like I don't know kind of nebulous sometimes useless thing. I I think we operate in a like a market economy we we uh make decisions based on like a very core set of of of like uh functions.

Calculus is very simple about when we make decisions. Am I going to get more value out of using this thing versus that thing? Does this environment uniquely enable me to tap into new types of of uh experiences, markets, etc. than this other thing? I think that's where crypto has shined. It's not been in in this kind of uh like religious devotion to a set of ideologies. It's been in unlocking kind of net new venues and net new verticals for people to play with. I think that was the success of like the early uh AMMs like Uniswap. It it opened the the floodgates for sort of longtail asset classes that traditional finance couldn't accommodate. We've seen this with the memecoin cycle over the past couple of years. Obviously, prediction markets have sort of tapped into this more efficient and autonomous

coordination of market participants and brought over users not because of an ideology necessarily, but because of a like a fundamentally kind of uh like new new uh feature that's born from decentralization. And so I don't know if I have a great answer of what principles we should borrow from like the the I guess like centralized AI space because I think what determines winners and losers in in this space and any space is is much more based on sort of fundamentals and and like what you unlock for your consumer base more than it is based on on sort of any specific ideology that that's attempted to be followed because often ideologies get left behind in the face of those fundamentals anyway.

>> Yeah. Danny, then maybe a more like direct way. Is there areas where you think decentralization is going to actually change AI outcomes versus just like slow things down for the sake of decentralization? Like is there a kind of a black and white here that you've carved out? >> It's a really good question like and to your point around like what we can learn from web 2 as part of this other question, right? Like we most align in theory with like the open source AI community that exists in SF and around the world. the ethos that the mission I think is very similar. The problem is we haven't approached getting there in the same way. Right? In the open source web 2 AI community, it's still about the efficiency of the systems and how you're going about things, making sure that things work uh they are functionally

advancing that mission. Whereas in crypto, I think too often we've overindexed on decentralization at the expense of functional systems, tools and products. And so for us the reorientation has to be okay we can move towards you know open-source o you know decentralized uh uh form factors but the mechanisms that get us there have to be very practical. They have to be informed by economic considerations by technical considerations etc. And it also alludes to another point that we've made repeatedly which is there's a big difference between decentralized and distributed and very often in this space we use the two interchangeably when we shouldn't be. A lot of the value prop that crypto brings to the table in how it can impact AI comes from more distributed form factors than true

decentralization in like the old school protocol concept. And so for example, like if we're talking about like data collection at the edge, right? You're more than likely going to have an operator, a centralized operator who's opinionated about the types of data that they need to collect, the ways that you create an application to incentivize different scenarios and reward them. the post-processing thinking about enterprise sales and how you create economic value around that but the actual supply side of contribution is very distributed. Likewise, if you think about like a reinforcement like network uh reinforcement learning like network in crypto, right? Like the value prop there can absolutely come from horizontal uh distributed setup where you have environmental and verifier diversity that leads to better uh evolution of more robust interesting agentic models. Um, but at the same

time, you absolutely need a centralized team that is focused on the curation of those environments and thinking about tweaking things on the algorithmic side, what they're actually going to use these models to, how you bring it all together in a way that's coherent. And so the TLDDR is distributed uh value proposition from crypto makes a ton of sense. The decentralized value proposition of crypto can make sense in certain areas, for example, in economic ownership and governance and things like that. But forcing it at those other parts of the stack is what sets us behind. where the open source AI community in web 2 is like, oh, crypto, you could actually make an impact here.

They take a look and they were like, none of this works. We're going to go back to doing what we do today. >> In order to bridge that gap, we have to actually think towards building things that are functionally guiding us in the direction of the mission that we do share with the open source web 2I community. >> So, could you guys give us a bit of an education here on on the way that these models are currently curated and and bringing together some of these distributed elements of the stack and different parts of inference? There's there's kind of a before and after picture here. The before is the way that these these larger models are orchestrating the these these models right now. And the after is is basically turning all of those distributed mechanisms into one coordinated market and and having all these submarkets and

and Nick maybe you can speak to the markets piece that is sort of this new paradigm that we think blockchain can uniquely enable these these uh elements of these models that are coordinated and orchestrated via these markets. So could you guys kind of paint the picture the before and after here? >> Sure. Danny, you want to start off or do you want me? >> You starting I mean you've been building this for years. >> Sure. Yeah. I I mean like when we think about like uh the the state of or like the market structure of AI today, I I think it it looks like a lot of traditional markets, right? Right. Like there is a lot of overhead that goes into sort of bringing models to market to sort of establishing uh some meaningful level of market share in the AI market. And we can talk about just

the model sector as well, but like if I if I am a a company or an entrepreneur trying to bring a model to market today, there's a lot of of of kind of like expensive non-trivial steps to get from model development or model conception to value capture. I have to stand up a business. I have to acquire funding. I have to uh set up a bunch of administrative stuff. I have to uh productize my model often. Um I have to find distribution PMF. There's tons of overhead. It's this long indirect path from sort of the the initial seed being planted that I want to come to market with with a model or I've had some useful innovation in modeling to capturing value from it. What decentralized networks enable us to do is is shrink that path to to the most

direct and and sort of shortest path possible. It allows us to go from model development or model conception to value capture just by pointing that model at a at a given network. That's that's kind of in the scope of what we're building. This could be many different types of resources obviously, but like decentralized networks turn any industry into that kind of uh before and after. Bitcoin did this with energy, right? If if I had access if we any of us had access to energy prior to Bitcoin, it was still like a fairly long and direct path to turning that energy into value. Sell it to a grid, stand up an energy company, etc., etc. Bitcoin creates the shortest path possible of turning excess energy into value just by pointing it at the network. And so we can start to break free of this this like material

inefficiency that exists in the trad AI industry. This these long indirect paths from from sort of creation to value capture by wrapping the the market environment in this kind of autonomous and coordinated decentralized network. And that's really the the most like impactful aspect of bringing decentralized networks to any industry. And and that applies very directly to like the before and after of bring decentralized networks to AI as well in my opinion. Danny, do do you see this as a common uh principle or building technique market bringing this sort of market structure to the AI landscape as a whole? Do you anticipate more projects to follow suit?

>> Absolutely. I mean to Nick's point the whole mission really that all these projects have is like the ability to take from the ground up you know a frontier model uh to market in web web 2 is restricted to a very very small set of teams that can aggregate the capital the technical resources the talent etc needed to actually do that what crypto seeks to do and what it I think has the biggest potential to do is use the ability to aggregate capital and aggregate people and resources and input and data around the world in a way that creates an alternate stack, a supply chain that helps people do that and it does so in a composable way. I think most of that has been promise more so

than actually delivered solutions. But I think we're starting to get a lot closer in having bits of that stack come together in ways that actually, you know, materially make an impact. And so like even around just like compute itself, right? The compute substrate we have in crypto for anything beyond just sort of like spot or on demand inference has never been reliable enough to be a real part of the conversation. But there's a lot of projects that have actually made material strides in the last couple years in terms of building these frameworks where not just inference but increasingly you know reinforcement learning and ultimately like pre-training can be done in a distributed context. And so ultimately the goal is to replicate the endtoend supply chain stack that is very closed off and controlled in web 2 AI.

Uh but it's really really hard because we have to do it at every layer of that stack and every one of those independently is extremely difficult. Doing it in a very coherent end to-end supply chain way is even harder. >> So then how do you think the just one one quick followup Danny how how how do you think the capital formation evolves? Do do you think it's M&A and bigger AI companies coming in and buying some of these like more modular players or or or do they team up or how do you think this evolves to become you know significantly impactful? >> I it's a great question. I think in web two we absolutely will see a lot more consolidation. I mean at every layer of that stack over the last couple years we've just had an explosion in the number of participants and attempts to

build companies of them. Most of them are just struggling to reach scale and break out. And so it just makes sense that you'll see consolidation. Um in crypto I think where we have the advantage is blockchains give you the ability to hit sort of like sustainable economic scale with a much smaller base of participants. And so I think what's interesting about crypto is not just markets that give you the tools and the resources from a sort of a technical side but also like the capital to be a like a sufficient and a sustainable player at a much smaller scale. In web 2 doesn't work in crypto there's a feasible path where a very uh open and diverse ecosystem of much smaller players around this stack can sustain itself over time because of what

blockchains enable at an economic level. >> Yeah. So it sounds like the answer to this the question of you know which AI primitive or which of of the AI primitives will actually create value on chain sounds like you know we talked about agents we talked a little bit about compute but it really sounds like this coordination uh kind of problem of models of of data of incentives you guys you know seem to agree that that coordination like network if you will is really the core driver of the of value onchain for AI.

>> I think so. >> It's uh it's when I think of it from the the infrastructure side of things, I think coordination is a really big part of it. But there's also the advantage that crypto has on sort of the application frontier, which is you know, we're the only place that has spent the last half decade thinking through what is like digitally native rails for the creation, the distribution, the monetization, the composability of content and assets and IP look like. And so when we think about what is AI ultimately going to get used for, I think crypto also has a huge advantage on that front. Everything from the absolute end layer for apps but also even for the agentic stuff around payment mechanisms around reputation based on cryptographic primitives for these things and new capital credit markets around uh AI in the wild. So yes, I think coordination is probably

really valuable on the infrastructure side, but I think everything else that crypto spent years refining and developing and stress testing, that's where we have a huge advantage in terms of actually productizing AI and coming up with net new apps and use cases. >> Yeah, I I think that's a great point. I think um like uh the the like the value capture of AI, the real promise of bringing AI to crypto in my opinion is is in like moving towards this like utopian state of society where uh like we we achieve hyper financialization where every possible thing in society can be turned into a financial market.

We've laid a lot of the foundation in that in crypto and DeFi itself. And now we have these like more efficient autonomous uh and hyper composable financial building blocks that can be combined to create ever more and more uh expressive building blocks. But the people using those the market participants are still like quite inefficient. And so there is a a fairly low ceiling still on the level of financialization that can that society can realize. And AI is the most deflationary technology to ever exist. Agents can participate in market sectors, process data sets and make make perspectives and decisions in domains that are incredibly longtail, incredibly niche or esoteric. And so I think a lot of the value is going to be captured in the like rapid expansion of

the the kind of applicability of markets in everyday society. I think AI agents are going to be the the deacto user of prediction markets. They're actually going to make prediction markets like hyper useful across everything in society. they're going to start introducing markets more into like our governance processes and uh from from local to federal, whatever it is. You know, I think like a lot of the value capture comes from just like unlocking this this incredibly proficient net new market participant and what that means for uh embedding markets into more and more of our daily lives basically.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that trend is accelerating and as you've as you've mentioned AI kind of p like pours fuel on the fire in a way um and kind of enables a lot of that and I think one of the examples right is the the use case for crypto the agentic transactions and all of the work that's came out the last couple weeks just on X42 and Coinbase promoting it and we had Jeremy Aair on the show a couple weeks ago talking about it. Um, it's just been it's been a large large growth here that I think people are really starting to pay attention to. Um, guys, we're coming up on time, but Nick, I'd be remiss to not fulfill the main community question here, which is what is the state of

development in Allora. Uh, I know, you know, mainet's looking ready for Q4 here timeline. What are you guys building? What can we expect uh closing? Yeah, I I uh I unfortunately can't share a specific date, but uh everything is ready and so uh it's uh it should be quite soon uh is is what I can say basically. But uh but yeah, I mean everything's ready. The network's good to go. Um uh we're we're in the kind of like uh we're working on some sort of final migration steps and uh yeah, really excited with how things have been coming along and we have a bunch of exciting stuff planned for uh the the coming weeks and and beyond basically.

Can you can you spill any like day one launch partners? Any any anything that our community can expect? >> Um I I don't know if I can uh do that. I I will say we have some uh and we'll release some more more stuff on this soon, but I I I will say we have some really exciting agent related stuff coming out around uh around that. So uh we spent a lot of time building out a bunch of stuff to start enabling millions and millions of of DeFi agents to start spawning and tapping into this Oh, >> millions and millions of DeFi >> coming to a blockchain near you. I hope you have high TPS.

>> Nick, Danny, guys, thanks for your time. Thanks for the insights. Uh, it's been very educational. Um, and just an overall pleasure, guys. Look forward to the mainet. Nick, I I know you're busy, so thanks for sharing some time with us and great to meet you, Danny. >> Thank you, guys. Really appreciate it. >> It was a pleasure. Thanks, guys. >> All righty, guys. >> Yeah. >> Bang. Rob Allora mainet imminent. The AI times crypto future is as powerful as as it's been. Um it's it's coming. It's here. Near is powering it with their near intense. I'm sure that they can work with Allora. They've got their private chat coming out here.

Shout out to Near. Shout out to Allora and Archetype. Um yeah, Rob, what's your take your ways? millions of agents and um agents as the primary driver and users of prediction markets. Pretty interesting to hear that take and I think he's right on like a pretty long-term time horizon. Um, I I think in the near term we're going to continue to see prediction markets as mainly a a speculative vehicle, but we're going to have millions of agents.

They're going to be making DeFi markets and making per markets and LPs. They'll be primary market makers for a lot of these >> and prediction markets >> and they'll be you know I what this it's it's actually a really technical and really deep point because AI is just a prediction engine and so the best AI you could say is almost a prediction market itself and these prediction markets sort of have these these network properties where they supersede one another like the the oracle of one is is also a prediction market for another and they sort of feed and that kind of builds on the self-fulfilling prophecy of a lot of these a lot of these prediction markets.

>> It does and it all of them trends anyone that is relevant to a human trends towards assassination. Hopefully we we do not have agentic beings accelerating the assassination of any humanled prediction markets. Guys, we're going to take a break. We're going to come right back with our first rumor mill. I'm going to let Rob simmer on that one because that's trippy. Guys, we'll be right back. Heat. Heat.

Introducing Rumor Mill episode series number one. Hyper EVM token launch season is imminent. Rumor mill is our new segment where we collect insights, intel, and rumors from our DMs. I think this one came from my DMs, but Rob's DMs in the rollups and Telegrams and we share these insights with you guys live every week bringing you alpha bringing you new ideas and insights. Today's is Hyper EVM token launch season is imminent. I got a DM two days ago from a fellow E HyperVM project suggesting that there are new tokens launching on Hyper EVM in the next six to eight weeks. G-Liquid, Hypers Swap,

Project X, Hydro Finance, Kinetic, and even Unit with over a billion dollars in TVL on Hyperlid HyperVM. I think Hyperlid has been compared against Aster as a perpex. But what is about to happen, I believe, is the L1 trade for Hyperlid is is going to ensue. Rob, I think we have at least five new token launches and airdrops coming for Hyper EVM. What's your take? >> I like Hyperl. How do I get one of these airdrops?

>> Well, I think you got to be active on HyperVm. So, you got to bridge via unit from Hyper Core and you got to be active in these projects. So, Kinetic is a liquid staking project. They've got a ton of TVL and a ton of users. That's going to be a massive airdrop and a massive token launch. unit is going to be a top 100 token I think more or less. So that one's going to be if you've bridged any asset into hyperlquid like plasma XPL or any any of the Salana like Fartcoin and then the majority of the other ones except for project X are like dexes that are like AMM designs I I believe. So I would think you just got to be active on the chain.

>> Okay. Okay. But no one's talking about this. Like people are so caught up with Aster and Hyper Core that they're not looking at Hyper EVM right now. >> Well, they're they're caught up on Aster. They're caught up on lick on lighter and lighter the per stacks, you know, sector and category as a whole. >> And so Hyperlid has sort of been flying under the radar a little bit. People have been speculating, are they going to lose some of their market share to some of these zero fee decks, per dexes? And so what you're describing is that these token launches are going to go live and there's going to be airdrops on the hype L1 >> on the Hyper EVM chain that's going to

create an onchain frenzy on Hyper EVM. Exactly. And I think they're I think they're coming in as little as a week to eight weeks. I think these all launched by the end of the year. Maybe we missed one or two, but the the rumor source was pretty was pretty certain that these were coming imminently starting >> a trustworthy source. >> I think so. It's a pretty trustworthy source. I mean, sources I made it up, but like you know, I think it's a pretty trustworthy source. >> So guys, I don't have any immediate action for you to take as a result of this, but I think that this is happening. If you're paying attention on

Hyper EVM, there's a lot of underarmmed opportunities and I think the hyperlquid chain itself separate from the core is going to get kind of an onchain stimulus and I think unit is the biggest one that is coming and I think that is going to be the massive breakthrough for the hypervm chain. >> We had a great great show with um I believe it was Luke. >> Yes. uh who came out of the Hyperlid ecosystem. Um he really gave an insight into what season two of Hyperlid could look like. Uh he gave us insight into what the functionality between builder codes, HIP 3, HyperVm, Hyper Core, how

all these pieces fit together and how to position for the next season of Hyperlid. Yep. >> A lot of these projects, I don't know if they were mentioned specifically, but they were part of the ecosystem that we were describing some strategies and how we could position for either one of these application, one of these projects airdrops that we have on the screen here or for a later season hype airdrop. Yeah. >> Which we also still believe >> I think that should come that that could come too >> also before the end of the year. >> We'll see. All right, guys. That's our rumor mill. Stay tuned for later in the week for the next one or early next, guys. Um, and yeah, I think that there's a a strong reality that these things

launch in the next couple weeks. So, if if you're farming there, stay active. If you're not, it could be worth a shot. I think it's coming. And um, we'll we'll see you guys on the other side. I think we got our next guest, Henry from Pretty, coming on the show. So, we'll take a quick break and be back. Thanks, guys, for being part of Rumor Mill. Hope you enjoyed. All righty. Up next, we've got Henry,

co-founder of Privy. >> I'm pretty stoked for this one. Privy obviously got acquired by Stripe. um that they did. >> I think that's pretty cool. I think that's pretty exciting. And I generally think that a lot of the payment infrastructure that's coming on like I I'm maybe this is a hot take. I'm actually bullish stable chains. >> Oh, that is not a hot take. I think everyone is bullish stable chains. >> I just think look, we talk a lot about Bitcoin dominance. I think Ethereum dominance is actually >> is actually a little bit too high. I think a lot of the TVL like look at the stable coins.

>> I mean >> right now if you look at DeFi Lama or you know really any analytic site they'll tell you that uh the stable coin balance on ETH is obviously the highest. Yep. >> It's 140 billion or something like that. >> Plasma's coming in number six these days. >> Yeah. And so then you've got Tron, which is second best at about 50% of the stable coin balance of ETH. >> Yep. >> Uh followed by uh let's see, I believe is going to be up there.

>> Yep. But when you think about like how this thing is going to shake out, Circle launching ARC, Circle's got a circulating balance >> of 80 billion DC. >> Yeah. 75 billion. >> Yeah. >> And so if you look at the the large chunk of stable coins that live on Ethereum and then you think, okay, how what is the split going to be? where it and and there's 75 billion USDC from Circle. How much of that is going to move over to ARC? How much of USDT is going to move into some of their stable chains? How much, you know, is is Stripe going to launch their own stable coin

and and mostly how is it on >> I think so. Just don't ask Henry. He won't be able to tell you. >> I know. I know. Well, we're going to bring Henry up in just a moment. But I I think these are some of the exercises that we're walking through. And I think you know the the where the stable coins are doicile right now is really set to proliferate into some of the edges. >> I do agree that it's been it's been in one or two places and it's going it's going to spread out. >> There's this entropy of stable coins that is about to happen and it's we're going to see it accelerate now that these these new venues are alive. >> Flo says so hyperm is yes it is. What you guys saying about monad? I'm saying we'll check in next week see what's going on. I think that

should be interesting. ZT says love rumor mill. That was fun. We got work to do on it, but I enjoyed it and I think we got better rumors coming. I already have a couple more in my DMs um as well as on the rollup. So guys, we got Henry in the back. We're going to get him up without any further ado and talk all things privy, stable coins, UX, tempo, Stripe, etc. Henry, welcome to the show. >> Hi, thanks for having me. >> Sick background, man. >> This is some really cool art that you got there. >> Thank you. This is actually not a virtual background, but this is uh this is my house.

>> Beautiful. What how did you put together this collection? What what's what's the through line here? >> Painstaking. These are all uh cover albums for some like obscure uh French comic. >> Cool. >> Nice. >> Very cool. Well, Henry, it's your first time on the show, man. Welcome to the show. Would love just a brief uh background on yourself and then one specific question for the audience is what was your first reaction when you closed the deal with Stripe? immense relief. I think you know the reality of like M&A is uh it is a painstaking uh long uh process. It is like getting a very very deep physical

background check and everything all at once but at a companywide level over bearded. So I think Stripe uh just was absolutely amazing and and the corv team is is is really uh worldclass and and and did an amazing job and everything went very very quickly. we close the process very fast. Uh but it you know certainly felt like a side job like I had most of my day actually working with privy customers on privy things and then like nighttime was for M&A and due diligence uh and leading that parallel life over a few months uh is not the most fun I've had uh working at Privy.

But maybe to answer the the other question taking a step back um so I'm Henry I'm one of the co-founders of Privy and its CEO. Uh I spent the first part of my career and this is how I got into crypto uh as a sort of applied cryptography student and then working at a company called protocol labs where I was building an L1 called Falcoin. So I worked a lot on distributed consensus for Falcoin and I came away from it at once you know really crypto pill and thinking we have built an ownership layer for the web. Uh but also this layer is completely unusable and no one seems to care for products or users at the end of the day. we are so uh caught up in protocols and and and sort of tokconomics that we've lost track of what it actually takes to build

compelling products on these rails. And so that is how privy came to be where the core point was how do we enable developers to more easily build uh crypto into the fabric of their products so they can unlock better experiences on crypto rails. So what privy does is we build basically a simple API so you can securely spin up uh embedded wallets. These are secure key management systems that sit within your app and allow users to hold and control uh digital assets as part of the app interaction uh letting them plug into any onchain system. So we work with the likes of Hyperlquid, Jupiter, a number of trading apps to enable smoother UX as part of trading experiences. We don't have to go out to a third party app or browser extension

in order to trade. We work with consumer products like Zora, like Farcaster in order to build basically wallets into the app itself. And we work with a number of uh payments and banking products uh that I can't name just quite yet uh to basically help make digital assets a part of you know everyday traditional finance as a uh more efficient extraay to your point earlier about you know stable coins and uh generally tokenized assets at large. Fantastic. Well, Henry, I think uh the crypto natives are certainly familiar with your work uh on essentially I want to say most of uh the applications that

have found product market fit or some significant user adoption previoused. >> What's that f? >> You mean fchech? >> Yeah, friend. Um more so the hyperlquids of the world. I think uh you know we we've seen the privy infrastructure and and now the next step is embedding this into uh the Stripe uh payment chain known as Tempo and so maybe you could clue us into not not just how this how this partnership came to be between you and Tempo but a little bit of the lore a little bit of the story. Did they approach you? Did you approach them? and but but more generally why is it such a good fit and a beneficial partnership for an embedded wallet to meet a stable coin chain like Tempo?

>> Yeah. So to be very clear uh Stripe approached us and the idea there I think was was three-fold. First uh Privy is the most scaled embedded wallet provider uh around today. So we serve about 1500 customers uh through them about a hundred million accounts and we help secure and power billions of dollars of transactions every month for the uh consumers that our developers sort of uh host. Uh and so as Stripe was digging into the space, they acquired Bridge uh some months prior. uh it seemed very clear to them that wallets are the core account layer for crypto and you need this sort of global bank account that

you can build into any product as part of building out a full crypto suite. So that was uh you know I think Stripe's reason for coming uh to us and and generally I think Stripe is trying to do two things which is one uh become you know as as a developer tooling company that it is a purveyor of uh crypto infrastructure through bridge through privy um as well as build uh uh these rails back into core stripe products to offer every stripe user just better access to these rails all the advantages that digital assets can provide users in terms of like faster uh cheaper fully global rails that give anyone in the world access to uh stable uh currency and the ability to do more with

that currency. Uh so that's the the Stripe angle so to speak. Now to to actually address your question, Tempo is a project that's incubated by Stripe, but it's a completely independent blockchain. And I think when Stripe initially approached us, uh we we weren't looking to sell the company and the question was what would it take for you guys to sell? And one of the conditions that we had is uh we are building for modularity and that fact must remain like privy works with every chain. Privy works with every infrastructure provider that includes stripe and bridge competitors. That should continue to be the case and so too with tempo. So why am I excited about tempo? I think tempo is addressing a very real pain point which is that a lot of chains today haven't been built for large scale money movement on a

global scale. Like today if you look at the throughput of transactions is being put uh you know through stripe and you assume we would try to move all of this on chain uh every chain would would fall over basically because of the the the amount of transactions and then there's a number of ergonomic questions around like you know can you pay for gas in any asset why do I need to hold you know uh the native chain token aside from the stable coin in order to do this are batch transactions built into the system um are there priority lanes for payment or will gas prices rise when there's a really cool NFT airdrop. Uh, in spite of the fact that it has nothing to do with me trying to buy a good. And so, um, I think there needs to be a lot more payments focused at the sort of L1

layer. And that's what Templar is built for. And I think for our part, we're really excited to to partner with them and serve them, but by no means are we sort of exclusively serving them. We're working with every uh blockchain that our customers want access to, which has always kind of been our our goal. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean so one particular point here on the gas uh you know or just gasless transactions as a whole. I think that that's something that a lot of people get stuck up on when they're you know first interacting with with blockchain rails. You know you guys seem to be really pioneering this and pushing this as the standard inside of privy enabled apps. Do you see gas abstraction becoming a regulatory requirement for consumer scale wallets or a just a basic US requirement to be competitive? What do

you see as like the drivers of gas or gas e abstraction? >> Yeah, I I mean I think you know my mental model is asking users to pay for gas is akin to having to pay per megabyte when you're watching a Netflix movie. So imagine you're streaming and basically every >> 8 seconds your buffer stops and asks you, hey, can you please reenter your credit card uh information or can you like approve this extra payment? It would make no sense and it completely breaks down how we do these things. And I think basically gas is uh both an extraordinarily important part of building public blockchains like a spam prevention mechanism that we need but also I think it's incumbent upon products and apps using this to figure out business models whereby they can

take these costs and you know potentially pass them down to users but not on a metered basis like Netflix charges you know 15 bucks a month and they pay for your buffering and the same should be true here for gas. So yeah, I I think it's going to become uh the fact a UX standard that users are not paying for gas that applications are covering that fee and uh you know, we're doing everything we can to make it a developer doesn't have to think about how to do that. So you know, Privy has this this notion of a gas tank. You can come in, you can put in a credit card uh number as a uh developer and you can basically prepay for gas that gets drawn as users do things. Um, but yeah, I think we'll look back two years from now and the

vast majority of people who interact with blockchains will have no idea what gas is and nor should they have to. >> H, how have you been able to find this common ground and and sort of rethink some of the the the more foundational principles in in crypto like the the concept not your keys, not your coins and and the concept of gas. you you've sort of reimagined these these concepts in a way that makes it much easier and more convenient for the end user to understand especially coming from a web two world where where they're accustomed to some of these flows like you said like it would be so so annoying to pay per megabyte on a YouTube video right um but but in crypto is just something that we accept similar to to self custody you

know custodying coins is an annoyingly secure but inconvenient thing to do >> and you guys have made it really easy. H how have you been able to reimagine some of these things and you know where have you been how have you decided where to draw the line between these hard hardnosed crypto um concepts and and building something that's easy and convenient for end users? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I I'm going to I'm going to go in and posit that there must be some qualitative difference with crypto founders who have quit crypto and kind of like rage quit and then come back. Uh that is broadly how at least I got here which is I went very deep. I got very frustrated. I was like well you know this like I did

like I I love this space but it it can't be my career. It's going to have to be nights and weekends for me and left the industry and then got drawn back. But I think that means that our team broadly is a really unique mix of very cryptonative like we understand the culture, we understand the technicals, we are very deep in it and at the same time um we are not religious and I think we kind of reject a lot of the crypto tribalism that I see around and so I think we have a lot of empathy for our customers um a lot of whom are not cryptonative and shouldn't have to be and so I think we found a way to really balance what are the things here that we shouldn't give up. For example, when we launched embedded wallets, it was essential that key export be a part of

it. I'll give you another example. Um, we launched our first embedded wallets on EVM and we felt it was really important that these be EIP193 providers that they offer all of these same RPC endpoints that any traditional wallet would have. And the point was a crypto developer should not have to distinguish between calling uh, you know, a private better wallet and MetaMask in their codebase. And so I think these are things that require a bit of understanding of crypto and how crypto works to value. But I think on the flip side all of us were like unless we grow this space all of this is for nothing.

And so we have to make it that um developers who are not crypto build don't have to think about the rails because I've never you know use the product because built on rather than postgress or something like that nor two I think will will consumers of crypto use it because it's crypto. They'll use it because it's better. Um, I think it's a really tricky balance. And you know, it's a weird plug, but if you scroll to the bottom of our website in the footer, there's a link that says, I think, technical decisions or moral decisions. And I think our core assumption when we started is we're going to mess some of these up. There is no world in which we take these risks by um trying to move forward UX and we don't make mistakes. And so, we just have to be very truth seeking where when

we make mistakes, we have to be here to correct them. But uh but but I think that's kind of how we've tried to find that balance. >> Yeah. >> Technical decisions are moral decisions. The privy manifesto >> I mean it goes deep into like L2B and to these all the philosophies that we carry on as we as the institutional adoption happens of our space. Without a doubt, they're it's not like that that that these players are purposely trying to corrupt the judgment or technology that you've built, but they're going to try to bu make it convenient, easy, and what their customer sets are are used to. And and so I think the philosophy here is about really just sticking true to what it's really just this kind of like line,

right, Henry? Like you're kind of walking this line between convenience and security every single day. It seems like you guys have it dialed with pass keys for example, Face ID and like you know these key exports. So like there's kind of like these non-negotiables, but then there's also like this gray area where you know different types of customers, different types of use cases probably, you know, you can make and accept certain trade-offs in certain scenarios and others you try not to. >> Yeah. And I think I think you know our secret has really been that we only build things for customers. I think one of the things that crypto companies sometimes do too much of is like kind of you know function by partnership. Let's build this thing together. We don't have a customer yet but because we're doing it together it'll work. And I think

we've tried to say uh anything we build there needs to be a customer whose painoint we understand whose product we understand. Um and I think that's been incredibly valuable for us but it comes with a risk which is that we give up on some of the things that make the actual infrastructure special. like if you carry this to to to its end conclusion then let's basically just build massive databases and lose a lot of the value of these open systems and so that is you know to your point the line that we're trying to walk which is uh making sure we we keep questioning the assumptions we're making on the path to actually making these secure systems more accessible to people >> I I am not surprised in the after reading a little bit of this manifesto I'm not surprised in the slightest that you guys were successful like from from

the very jump you can tell that what what you were building you saw as impactful and you were you were building it and it was always going to make a difference. I think it's worthwhile just reading a few words from this. It's really short, but I I'm just gonna I'm just going to quickly All right. So, behind every technical decision we make as engineers, we are working to shape the world to make it more as we think it already is or ought to be. Obviously, dark patterns abound, but beyond so blatantly engineering behavior, we project a world view into everything we build. By making a confirm button blue and a cancel button white, we push our users to confirm by ordering recommended tips in descending order on POSOS terminals with the largest tips on the left and the smallest on the right. We

are pushing customers to tip more. And you go on to say that history smart well meaning engineers unknowingly opening Pandora in boxes. Ethan Zuckerman, the creator of the popup ad, which no one likes pop-up ads, right? That's part of the point here is no one no one likes ads. No one likes pop-up ads, acknowledges, I'm sorry, our intentions were good. So you guys have a morality baked into everything you're building and you're using this constantly evolving philosophy and and constantly open-mindedly questioning the things that you're doing and viewing them from multiple perspectives to to just constantly challenge yourself where just

just real quick real generally like where did this philosophy come from? How do you think was instilled instilled in you and why are you instilling it in the projects and and Privy and the things that you're building? >> Yeah, I mean it's a great question for what it's for the the the the the words you you know that we wrote here they're very like you know high-minded way of saying we are going to mess up uh assume we will mess this up and please call us out on it so we can improve. That's the bottom line. And I think like you know by the way like we're privy privy io on Twitter like just actually do hit us up um on these these channels so that we can improve the product and and that's how we do it. Um for me at

least it was uh probably two things. One is like working basically on an L1 for a long time and seeing basically that we get so wrapped up and understandably so in deep fundamental technical decisions but it comes at the cost of speed and ultimately unless we can iterate quickly then the the space will be at a standstill. So this was kind of my promise to self coming back into the space was if I come back it needs to be with kind of a draw to impact that we don't get unless we're willing to take risks which means being willing to mess up. Um and then I think the converse this is a strange story but that I um stuck with me. I I I interned at Palunteer once upon a time and I remember folks there asking um what if we don't agree with the work

that's being done? This was back in in 2016. And I think the line from from um uh the folks at Palunteer at the time were listen uh you don't need to work on something you don't agree with, but we care to do work even when it's uh complex and uh morally veilent because if we're not doing it, who will be? And I think that was kind of a sense of of you know if we want to have impact then we need to be willing to try things and I would rather we try them be held to account and you know for what it's worth privy builds transparent systems like we use secure enclaves and ondevice reconstitution you can check how the keys are reconstituted you can get addistations for the code that's running

in the enclaves uh but again I think it was a culture of crypto needs more people trying things uh even when sometimes they go against the orthodoxy Very cool. Um I Yeah, generally I I think this is a philosophy that's been uh it's going to continue to develop and it's almost, you know, it's very honest. Like it's given you guys a sense of who you are as humans. You're going to make mistakes. Like you said, you're incorporating your own morality, which is I think part of having a a point and a and a and a an opinion and making that known, but then also constantly calling to question. Um, I wanted to make sure that I I asked you about AI, too, because we actually had someone just just on the show uh before

you talking about um them launching their product and having millions of DeFi uh agents that are popping up uh when they go mainet and and increasingly they're going to be uh agentic users of crypto and blockchains and these applications. And so when you're building wallet infrastructure and key management, how are you starting to adapt for the agentic future? H, you know, what does this mean? How are you incorporating it? What what do you think this landscape ends up looking like?

>> It's a great question. I have two points. Before that, I'll just rewind a step back. I think a lot of the uh taking risk standpoint comes with regards to UX and the types of patterns that we build into UX. Uh one place where that should not happen is on key management and cryptography. And so this has actually been the like reverse of this of this philosophy of trying things is we will try things on the delivery mechanisms for these key management systems. Where we won't try things is in the underlying crypto system and the security systems that we've built where we use you know tried and true primitives uh assembled in ways that are audited. And so I just wanted to to make sure that was clear um which is it's it's a duality of how do we build basically and set a floor for security

that is extraordinarily tight and then uh uh enable developers to shape these systems in the ways that they need. Um to actually answer your question I I think there are two things that to me come come by. First we have a policy system in privy. So when you when you're using embed wallets you can set policies on them. These policies can be like for example I want these wallets to uh only be able to interact with this allow list of uh you know uh basically allow listed recipients. I want them to only be able to call these contracts and maybe I want to limit the total value um that will be transacted by the wallet on a monthly basis in this way. They're a very powerful policy system and today it's used pretty widely actually by our fintech customers, Neoanks that want to build in risk controls where it's like,

you know, uh the uh the rollup bank account should only be able to transact up to $100,000 a day. Robbie can individually transact $10,000 a day, but like Robbie and Andy need to align before they can get to 100,000. Things like that. Um the way we actually built this feature in the first place was because of a aentic trading. We had a given customer that was building an agent trader uh on top of uh consumer wallets and basically the user could delegate access to the wallet and agent to trade on their behalf. And our customer was like if this agent hallucinates my user is going to get wrecked and so how do we actually limit what the agent can do on the wallet so that we have some parameter and some bounds for the like non-determinism that

comes with LLMs. Um, and so that's been something that we found really interesting is actually we see agentic usage of blockchains kind of leading the way on a lot of the UX and sort of error considerations that people have and that's then finding its way to like you know something you wouldn't assume is related which is to say banking infrastructure. >> Um, so that's the first part is that that that's really how we've done it. We've let customers lead us but we've seen that basically agents really test the bounds of how you think about user error and things like that. Um the second piece is to the you know where we started off the conversation and kind of coming full circle uh why tempo why does it make sense to have payments focused blockchains well if you already look at the TPS required for global payments now

imagine a global payments uh landscape where agents are trading it stands to reason that things that weren't possible until now micro payments that have never been a good design pattern in traditional payments until now um become possible and so the velocity of payments on the web is going to explode and we actually need blockchains that can stand up to that volume. So, those are the two things that come to mind. >> Yeah, >> it's it's funny to think that right now the TPS of a lot of these blockchains is so low that it can't handle a lot of the payment flows that you're describing, but unironically we actually need the coordination mechanism of blockchain just scaled up in order to handle all of these flows.

>> Yep. >> Yeah. I had a quick question from Flo about privacy when it comes to using privy. Um, you know, what is something about privacy that um, you know, he he's he's interested to like to understand how privacy is embedded to privy. I think private payments are getting very popular now. You know, he just wants to understand what the roadmap is, I think, or or kind of what people are scared to admit about privacy in, you know, payments in wallet infrastructure. >> Yes. Uh we have one team member actually uh Kylie on our team who who you should follow who is uh very deep in the space and doing a lot of work here uh on our side. Um the core point is this. So first let

let's lay out like how privacy works with privy today. So privy wallets can be built to be fully self-custodial meaning only the user can reconstitute keys and use keys to do any transactions. With that said, the linkages between um users and wallets is known to us. It's not publicly known, but for example, if you sign up with a Google account and you generate Xwallet, the link between the Google account and the wallet is something that we can see. And this is why we support uh external wallets as well. You can just always sign up with your MetaMask. You can have like synonymous emails. But like the point is that link is known uh and and we want to be very transparent about that. On that front, what we're seeing is as traditional fintex come in, especially marketplaces, Stripe and

Coinbase, for example, work together to serve Shopify for merchant payins using stable coins. Um, that's an area where we need private payments so that you are not showing people which merchants are making how much and creating like, you know, physical world risks for everyone. Um, and so that's an area obviously where new blockchains are working on this like Tempo. Um I and I think the reality is this is going to have to be a solution that occurs at a few different points in the stack. Uh blockchains will need private payments. I think there is room for asset issuers to build the privacy into the stable coins themselves. And then I think there are things that we can do as wallets to do that as well. So we've been exploring basically how to build uh native integrations into privacy preserving L2s

for example as part of privy. So there can be a you know in the same way that we've we've successfully abstracted gas by saying hey just click this button and now gas is something your user doesn't have to think about we want to build basically uh built-in privacy layer into privy that allows you to do this. I think it's still very early and the dirty truth is that you know crypto has not done half as much for privacy as we thought it would by now. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Awesome. Uh Henry thank you so much for coming on man. It's been an absolute pleasure. I think we're out of time but I I'd love to continue the conversation. I think you have a very unique perspective coming from both the web two world as well as the web 3 world. You're you're really able to see the frontier

of where these two areas are converging and wallet infrastructure is such a crucial piece of this overall stack uh to both the the payment stack and the way that this is converging with crypto and blockchain stacks that uh yeah would love to have you on again sometimes. This was uh this was a lot of fun. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Lots lots more to build. >> All right, Henry. >> Congrats on the acquisition. >> Talk to you Thank you. >> Thanks, man. >> See you. >> All right. Peace out. >> Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. Yeah. I mean, Privy is going to Privy made they got acquired for a lot. I mean, that was just that is just they hit it really.

They I mean the people don't understand that Stripe got a steal on Privy. like the the privy and bridge acquisition for Stripe set them up to launch their own stable coin, their own chain to have users never use bank accounts anymore and to be fully fully into the onchain landscape with a familiar payments provider that processes payments for the entire world. So yeah, I mean that is like I think Stripe got a deal here on Bridge and Privy and I see that is going to keep being I think that's going to be the case for a long time. So, um, it's great to have Henry on. I think up next we've

got Thomas Cohen, the head of tokenization at Galaxy. Rob's going to take this one. >> Andy, you can't you can't stick around for this one, man. >> And we're going to talk >> Stabled Up episode number four. >> He's busy. >> We'll be right back. >> I'm looking forward to it. [Music]

Man, I'm stoked. Stabled up episode four. Um Thomas Cowan from Galaxy has a long and storied history in the area of stable coins. Uh before he even got to Galaxy, he worked on one of the first research projects and and this was more than just a research project. Project Hamilton was a project from the Boston Fed and it was really this endeavor into CBDC's. And so CBDC's obviously were sort of this idea before stable coins even really got started. And Thomas Cowan was working on arguably one of the most influential and important research uh teams to to look into CBDC's from a government and a

nation state perspective. So, I'm super stoked to have him on the show today to talk about what he learned while he was working on Project Hamilton at the Boston Fed, how he ultimately ended up uh working in stable coins at Galaxy. He's now head of tokenization at Galaxy and uh ultimately there's so many learnings from being in this space for such a long time. Uh Thomas Cowan, I'm sure, has plenty of really fun and interesting takes for you guys. So, we're going to bring them up in just a moment and we're going to have a good time.

Thomas Cowan, welcome to the rollup. I'm super excited to have this chat. I don't think we've ever had someone who has been at the Federal Reserve and also Ripple and is now the head of tokenization at Galaxy. That is a very unique position that you're holding in the industry. So, it is a pleasure to have you here on the rollup. >> Of course, Robbie, thanks. Thanks for having me and excited for the conversation. >> Absolutely, man. I mean, we were just talking before this, you know, bull market. It's good vibes. Uh we're we're enjoying the times. I think we we all grind through and survive in some of the tougher market conditions to make it out uh and enjoy some of the things that are happening today. Uh Bitcoin is breaking new all-time highs. Things are things are generally trending up and to the right uh in a very positive direction.

Um and it's not just market prices that are up and to the right. It's the actual use of this technology. Hester Pierce is talking about cryptography and privacy. never I I mean I remember Gendler and that was kind of all I knew as an SEC chair and now you know we are we are very much in a different set of circumstances. Before we get into kind of the current moment here today, it's your first time on the show. Maybe you could give us a little bit of a background and kind of a walk through your very storied history and experience leading up until this point. Thomas, how did you find yourself leading tokenization at Galaxy?

>> Yeah, absolutely. Happy to give a quick a quick background. Um, so I mean I love how most people in the space have a story of, you know, they had their old career and then they kind of went deep down some rabbit hole and and then you know the rest is history in terms of of going deep into crypto. And for me it was um when I when I worked at the at the Federal Reserve on their on their crypto team um and then and then I worked at Ripple and then was at Paxos uh helping helping build out their stable coin strategy. Um and then and then finally ended up at at Galaxy uh helping build out the the tokenization team here. Um and so you know been in the space for about five or six years at this point. Um and to your point it you

know this industry has its highs and lows and so it's wonderful to be to be at a at a relative high at the moment. And um I one thing that's exciting is I do feel like this time you know we have a lot of wind at our back and that we have increasing regulatory clarity. We we have you know the technology has really reached a level of maturity that is has you know much much more much stronger than than previous cycles. And then we have institutional adoption and interest that we just haven't seen before. So you put those three three things together and it really creates, you know, an environment that allows us to really to really run with it and build out build out the technology and the and the uh and the adoption that we've all been looking for for so long.

>> Yeah, there's been just a there's been a flurry of news from the very core financial infrastructure that has underpinned our fi just not trady, not defi, just finance in general. the the SEC is considering allowing stocks to trade onchain, incorporate some sort of stable coin collateral potentially. I've heard things from the NASDAQ. We're also on the brink of 247 trading for a lot of these equities. So, it just feels like we're we're starting to realize the effects of this technology. We've seen this being understanding of blockchain for a long time. We've seen where this is headed. It finally feels like the rest of the world is catching up. I I want to get a sense of where you were

when you were when you were at the Fed and you were working on crypto. I take it was probably a rather small team and a pretty tightknit community at the Fed that was working on the crypto initiatives at the time. When were you there and and generally what was the vibe? Was it still trying to parse out stable coins versus CBDC's and and central bank digital currencies? Maybe you could kind of untangle this web of how things were back then. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, it was actually on the the Project Hamilton team um that looked at CBDC's specifically and and it wasn't, you know, pro CBDC or anti-CBDC.

It was more, hey, let's look at this technology, see see where it applies and see how it it can impact the role of currency and the dollar more broadly. Um, not only here in the US, but also on on a broader scale across the world. And so, the mindset really was what is what is the technology and what what could it unlock? And so, that's kind of the mindset that that we had there. And it gave me a lens through which to look at the existing financial system, you know, how how it has evolved over over the decades, how technology has played that role. And then as importantly, look at look at crypto and say, okay, how can blockchain specifically help improve that that um the the system that that we have today. And it's less of hey let's completely upend the system and more

let's improve it and you know cut costs boost boost revenues where we can and increase availability to to you know different investor classes and and different people all over the world. And so that's kind of the mindset that that we took. And now that initial kind of 2020 2021 um kind of mindset that we had, I'm finally beginning to see that begin to bear fruit as we get regulatory clarity, as we get major financial institutions uh that have helped define uh the US economy more broadly and and finance more broadly begin to think about this and recognize, wow, this is no longer, you know, just a technology or science project on the side, but increasingly technology that we're going to adapt into vast parts of of their business lines more broadly. and we're still

super super early even though for those of us in the space it feels like it's been a long road. Um I think it's just exciting really what we're going to see and how quickly it's going to happen once once we really get people to to buy and see the potential this technology has. >> Could you tell a bit more about the story of Project Hamilton? Where did the directive come from? Where did the order come from, you know, on the on the the food chain at the Fed? Did it come from the very top? And then and then maybe you could explain what the outcome of project Hamilton was. What what were some of the findings and the conclusions that you drew and we'll we'll maybe you know parse that into and catch up as to where stable coins are today.

>> Yeah, totally. So it was very much uh looked at as a as a research project team within the Boston Fed in partnership with uh the MIT digital currency initiative. And so the approach was from a tech perspective, what can this technology do to help move um you know move uh currency more efficiently uh across the world and and domestically as well. Um and there were a few main takeaways that that we had when we published the paper in February of 21 or 22 now. I you know it's it's been a long a long time. Um but but the the couple of takeaways were uh for starters with a a product or currency as liquid as the US dollar it means that the um the kind of speed and the volume that you need

frankly doesn't work well on a blockchain. Um you know for the the TPS that you would need for for for CBD a retail CBDC specifically uh you need at least north of you know multiple millions of transactions per second. For context, you know, Visa, last time I checked, could could handle up to 60,000, but they average closer to six to 10,000. So, just it's a few orders of magnitude greater than than what blockchains could handle. And so, you know, one of the biggest conclusions was maybe blockchain actually isn't the best use case specifically for retail CBDC. Um, another big takeaway was um, you know, it's it's rare, um, that we would see an institution like the Fed face retail directly. You know, it never has.

and is unlikely to in the future. And so one of the other takeaways was um you know that those roles would likely stay the same and so it would remain intermediated by the commercial banking system. Um and and so the other thing too is the timeline as well highlighting that if this were to take place you would need buyin from DC and buyin from um from legislators and and the executive branch as well. And so the timeline is long enough that at least I came to the conclusion that hey I think uh that the uh US private sector is likely going to solve a lot of these problems that that a CBDC might um if if it were moving a little bit faster. And so at least for me that's when the light bulb went off of oh you know I do see a

dollar moving on chain. The question is how and what use case. And that's really when I I kind of went down the stable coin rabbit hole and I'm still very much very much uh involved in stable coins and and think that they are going to be one of the key ways we move and store value going forward. That being said, I think that we're going to continue to, you know, move value on the old rails for a long time, similar to how, you know, people still cash checks, people still use wires when in reality, you know, Venmo and and other other payment platforms do move move faster. So I think it's another avenue through which to move value but it won't be one that replaces all the others.

>> Got it. That makes a ton of sense. The there and and now we also have people directly in Washington. We have Secretary of the Treasury Bessant speaking about the the scale at which they're going to issue stable coins to to the tune of three trillion by 2028. There there was recently a tweet by Naval that said stable coins are just CBDC's with extra steps. as someone who worked at the Fed on Project Hamilton, did intense research into CBDC's, and then went on to work at Paxos, significant issuer of stable coins, and now again, head of tokenization at Galaxy. Is there truth to that? What getting back to the basics here, what separates a bad CBDC from a

good stable coin? >> Um, well, there's a a lot in that question and a lot to unpack. One thing I would focus on is at the end of the day when you build a new technology it can be used in in you know a lot of beneficial ways and there are also risks with any new technology and and the question is as it evolves and as it is created you need to make sure the industry uses it in ways in the most you know in the best way possible innovating and pushing the ball forward while at the same time having regulators come in and create the rules and the regulations that put up walls to ensure that it's used in the best way to benefit you know the the consumer base as much as they can without with limiting the drawbacks.

And we've seen this over and over and over with new technologies going back from, you know, Visa starting in Fresno, California to to the rise of the internet to Uber. Over and over and over, we see that, you know, technology racing ahead of of um regulation and then regulation catching up and it's just kind of a a constant, you know, give and take. and and this this is no different where uh people are recognizing especially those of us who've been in the industry for a long time recognize the benefits of this technology and the question is how we make sure that we create a regulatory environment uh to to you know maximize the the best part and minimize the risks and I think increasingly in the past couple of years and this year specifically we're beginning to see that really bear out whether that be in the

US or or Europe or Asia more broadly where people are beginning to recognize the technology and help put in rules to embrace it and and um and incentivize innovation as much as possible. >> Yeah, absolutely. I I think the regulatory environment is something that there's there's no doubt there's no objections. It is certainly fostering innovation and one of the things that I think was extremely positive that frankly the market reacted negatively to which makes a ton of sense. But I think just on a just on a pure first principles basis, the SEC saying that they're going to start to investigate 200 plus digital asset treasury companies for insider trading because of some of the movements that took place ahead of them announcing their crypto strategies. It's like,

yeah, that is common sense regulation. That's not regulation by enforcement. They're not saying just, you know, letters out the wazoo to these companies. They're saying, we're going to go investigate it. We're going to find out what's going on here. And that's not going to slow down the rest of the positive innovation that's happening on on the rest of the industry. I I do want to just double kind of double click on this question though like what's just kind of catching up the last couple years. What separates and and fostering innovation certainly you know as people in this this industry is super helpful and super healthy for this industry to kind of foster, sustain and grow. But from all of your experience, what separates the current era of stable coins and and why they're

there such a positive impact versus the the you know potentially treacherous CBDC's that we had seen in the era of 2019 to 2022. >> Yeah. I mean, I think zooming out, thinking about what what currency is and what what a dollar really is, when most people think of a dollar, they think that all dollars are the same. In reality, a dollar in your PayPal account, a dollar at JP Morgan, a dollar in your wallet, and um you know, a money market fund all are equal to a dollar. But in reality, the risk profile is very different. They're inter intermediated by a different system. And so it means that while from an accounting perspective, that's all a dollar. From a risk perspective, it's very different.

And so when you think of a CBDC versus a stable coin, the risk perspective is also different. Right? By definition, a CBDC is a liability, a direct liability of of a central bank. uh whereas a stable coin is a liability of a private issuer, a circle or a tether that's that's backed by uh you know cash repo and and treasuries, right? So um it it really just depends on on how you how you um you know define what a dollar is and and how it's treated. Um and then of course the question is given that how do you regulate it to be able to ensure that the capital can move in a very efficient manner but also is used in an inherent and safe and and contained way.

And so that balance I think is is one of the biggest challenges that we're going to have as we see uh the movement of of currency you know moved on chain. I think the extremes usually people agree with that there should be some way like cash is completely anonymous. I would love for that to remain the case. Um but at the same time when you move vast amounts of of of money most people would say yeah if you're moving a ton of money it would make sense to make sure that there are KYC and IML checks for that right? So like those extremes usually most people can get on board with. It's the middle that really thinks get interested in what those what those use cases are. So um you know just like any other technology we've we've shown what the benefits are and and what the

possibilities are and now the question is how we come together to to leverage it to you know upgrade the system with while minimizing the risks. >> Right. Yeah. I I I can see the current the current dynamic of private issuers of stable coins creating somewhat of a fragmented system. The we we've had this conversation about private issuers going all the way down Walmart stable coin, Amazon stable coin, the Meta Libra project being revitalized and and seeing all of these things, how do we maintain fungeability across them could lead to some issues. But then again, you know, the CBDC certainly has its in issues with surveillance state potential outcomes.

>> So there's there's certainly a lot of nuance here. But just to be reductive for a moment, Naval's tweet fact or fiction. >> I mean, honestly, I would I have to dig in dig in more. I I think um at a high level, I look at it very much as a as a tech perspective of okay, how can we leverage this tech to be as beneficial as possible? Um and and really think through what it can be. And one thing that's exciting here at Galaxy is while, you know, the industry's really found product market fit with stable coins, you know, as a more efficient way to move money as a as overseas dollar access in emerging economies and as a trading pair for Bitcoin, Ethereum, and digital assets. We're really beginning to unleash what this technology can do beyond stable coins, money market funds, debt, tokenized equity, and beyond. So,

um, we're we're really excited to to see what given given the past of showing that stable coins have that have that uh that future going forward and that growth uh now really what we can do more broadly across different different financial assets. >> Very very diplomatic answer. Really appreciate that. Um, and and I'm curious when you're you're looking at the US market, this is certainly a a a result of the the regulation and the developing landscape that we're having here and and really fostering innovation. We're seeing private issuers coming out all over the place. And it is really, really cool from my perspective to see the private and public markets go head-to-head in stable coins. We're seeing Wyoming, this the state of

Wyoming issue a a there's a publicly issued by a government, a state government stable coin. At the same time, we have Circle, one of the largest IPOs this year, private company launching stable coins. So the Wyoming currency and the and effectively still the US dollar, but the Wyoming stable coin, the USDC, these are going to go head-to-head. And this is how things are playing out in the US. We have a very capitalistic attitude. It's really cool to see. Other places, for instance, Europe, there's kind of speculation. They're kind of toying with this idea of a CBDC. They haven't fully embraced a full privatized stable coin market as of yet.

How do you think the non US dollar denominate denominated stable coins, how do you think that landscape might play out? And then I I'd love to go on to some more broader broader strokes tokenization combo. >> Of course. Of course. So, um I I think one one thing to think through is in many ways we're kind of in the in the wildat era of banking where we're having a privatized version of the dollar to an extent. And I think we'll end up happening in the beauty of the Genius Act is the goal is to standardize all of that. So we can go back to thinking of a dollar as a dollar just like a dollar at JP Morgan and a dollar at Bank of America trade equally even though they're liabilities of different institutions, right? So from that perspective, you know, you and I when we

think of money in a bank account, we think of it as as standard when in reality it is at different institutions, right? So that that I think is where we'll end up. Um, and in terms of on the on the Europe side, actually one of the uh big initiatives that that I've led here at Galaxy is is um helped form a joint venture with DWS, which is the asset management arm of of Deutsche Bank, Flow Traders, and Galaxy to uh form a joint venture and launch a uh Euro denominated stable coin called All Unity. Um, and we chose to launch it in in Germany with a a boffin uh license in the Mika regulation and it's it's euro denominated and really we saw that uh you know if you look at Europe today uh

it's still frankly dominated on chain by the tethers and by the USDCs of the world the the euro specific stable coins are still pretty limited. And so we saw a big market opportunity knowing that hey, as the market matures, there's likely going to be demand for Euro denominations on chain. And so that's one thing that we really are excited by and continue to see to see grow after our launch uh this past July. Um and I think the fun part is I you know long term we're likely going to see uh you know the the amount of off-chain amount of onchain currency match off-chain currency. So we will see more and more currencies come onchain. Um and and then you know FX markets will emerge and and and the like. But uh you know again we're still so early. It's funny how to

us 280 290 billion in stable coins is so big but in in the trillions that currencies live on it's tiny. So we we have a long a long way to go. >> Wow. So the amount of onchain currency flipping the amount of or or coming to par with the amount of off-chain currency where do we where is it right now? Is it 8020? Is it 955? Do is there any >> It's It's fractions of a of a of a percent. It's not it's not even not even close. Um and we we have a a long way to go and and we're excited by that, right?

Because um it just it just means there's a lot of opportunity there. And and as we know, stable coins are the part of the industry that has the most product market fit where people very clearly do see it as a more efficient way to move value across borders. They do see it as a more efficient way to get overseas dollar access in emerging economies with weaker currencies and they do see it as as a more efficient way to uh you know buy Bitcoin, Ethereum and other digital assets. So it's found product market fit and that's just the beginning and we're really going to see it grow substantially as stable coins become a means of payment and a store of value across different parts of the financial e ecosystem more broadly. AB >> absolutely and this is a very similar premise that Secretary Bessant has talked about it. you're now talking

about it now scaling to 3 trillion, scaling it so that we're on par with the amount of off-chain currency will bring it I I'd imagine exceeding three trillion in quite some excess. And so starting from this premise, what are some of the knock-on effects of this? And I I can just sound off just for a moment and and and I'd love to get your take because you know there's also and I I was in uh I was in Asia. I was going to these conferences. I didn't get to go to the network state conference which I I I'm sure was really really interesting because this is essentially an economy and a and a network state that's already built on stable coins. That is the lifeblood of the economy. It is it is kind of the national currency of each network state. Mhm.

>> And so I'm curious, as greater amounts of stable coins are put into circulation on chain, this will inherently flow into the e economies of network states and not necessarily the economies of nation states unless those nation states are onchain. And so to me, it's, you know, it's it's a slipperier slipperier slope for stable coins to go into something like a hyperlquid or or an Ethereum rollup or an Ethereum ecosystem rather than starting from first principles. We create these stable coins, we put them into circulation, and then they make their way into, you know, a money market fund or or a or a a stock indicy unless that thing is tokenized. And it's almost

like this onchain liquidity begets more onchain liquidity. Are you thinking about the same way? What what do you think are some of the knock-on effects of generating and and circulating so much stable coin supply so that you know that we reach this inflection point going from offchain to onchain. >> Yeah. So I think when we think through any kind of technological adoption that that whether that be financial related or not kind of the first wave is you look at what the technologies potential is and how exciting it is. When the first iPhone came out, everyone said, "Wow, this we don't know what all the uses will be of it, but we know it's it's fascinating." And then, you know, then the app store comes out and then all the uses of the technology really unlocks. And we're in the same thing here where people have shown that using

a stable coin to move money across borders is just faster, better, cheaper than the correspondent banking system. So, we know that that's better. But then what are the actual uses and the implications of that? That is the part that we're going to get into over the next, you know, 18 months to to couple of years where people will say, "Wow, now I can just move move money in a faster, better, cheaper manner." What does that mean from an economic point of view? And and that part is when the technology begins to fall away and people won't know they're using stable coins. People won't know that they're that the back end of their financial life is on chain. They'll just know that they're able to pay their relatives more more efficiently, that they're able to send money home, that they're able to pay for goods more efficiently. And it

just means that the global economy can be even more integrated and have even less friction when you're moving value across borders. And so we're we're going to get to that inflection point. Um I think with stables, we're getting we're getting there in terms of seeing the use from just the technology. Um but I think in terms of other financial products, we still have a long road ahead. Uh but we're beginning to see kind of the um the benefits of them uh kind of, you know, come come to life. >> Yeah. you know there there's been a lot of speculation that AI is going to lead to this you know GDP uh increase and productivity boom as a result of the efficiency of of the labor market and basically you know a lot of automation but when we're thinking about capital efficiency it feels like stable

coins are right there like they're they're a very clear use case for how we can make all of this capital flows more efficient m maybe you could just close us out here what are some closing thoughts Do you maybe some do you think there's going to be categorical changes here? GDP increase, banking sector decrease as they get innovated generally, how do you what are some conclusions that you draw? How do you put these things together? Yeah, I think one parallel that I that I like to make and I can steal from from Jeremy Lair, he always talks about how um before the internet and after the internet, what it really did was the amount once you could move information much much faster, it meant the amount of information, you know, increased by a large number,

right, by like exponentially. And I think we'll see the same thing here where because the cost to move money and the cost of payments will decrease so much, it means that people are going to be much more likely to pay fractions of a cent to access content, for example. And and so that's for people. When you get to the AI end of things, there's no reason why you can't have AI AI agents paying fractions of a cent for access to certain information or to, you know, get through a payw wall or to make sure you're not a bot or whatever it is. And so I think we're going to see a merge of these two technologies that that will be quite beneficial and create a lot of efficiencies. And at the same time, I think over and over and over, you know, with every new technology, a lot of the

time people think, oh, this is going to wipe out so many jobs and and impact our GDP in XYZ ways. And at least up until now, we've seen a lot of people been able to create new jobs, create new industries, and you know, generally improve the livelihoods based on this new technology that we've seen. And and I think I think this is no different. and and you know at Galaxy while we you know I started focusing on stable coins we're now much more you know much broader looking at at money market funds and onchain debt and and tokenizing our own stock and all that and so while stable coins is the first chapter we still have a long road ahead and we're we're excited to continue to lead the industry in that way.

>> Awesome Thomas Cowan thank you so much for coming on absolute pleasure talking about this induced demand as a result of uh making capital more efficient. love to love to have you on again sometime soon. And just generally as we're pushing beyond stable coins and into money market funds and indices and bringing things on chain there there's we're moving at light speed and uh there's lots to talk about. So thanks thanks again for coming on. >> Of course. Thanks for the time. All

>> righty. >> And you're back. >> That was Thomas. I'm back. >> How you been? >> Pretty good, man. I mean, those guys are with the Galaxy One app that they just announced, the Neo Bank Wars are absolutely on. I mean, absolutely on. >> Yep. Obviously, Plasma, which we covered Tempo uh, >> Ether, >> quite the Neo Bank vibe, but Ether. >> Yep. It's on. I mean, it's on. It's they're like they're not only they're going out to Revolute and Venmo and all of those, but they're going directly at banks, too. So, it's on.

It's on. Um Rob, I wanted to run through some Kouchy picks over the weekend u from last week. I think my portfolio is looking up. >> That Bitcoin 125 probably hit, but has came back. >> Bitcoin definitely hit. Um, yeah, I got some I got a couple that I need to uh hit on. So, I got All right, so let's pull Cali up on the screen and um yeah, we'll go through some of these. I like uh the the crypto markets here where it's like it will it hit this number because you don't have to sell the market will now uh become determined as a yes.

>> It's just like an option. So, I hit on um Toronto. I lost on uh Philadelphia. Denver versus Philly. I had Philly. Uh p I took a L there. But let's go back up to the trending markets. I guess there is um Trump's doing a cabinet meeting right now. So, >> yeah, these mention markets are pretty interesting. >> Um Oops, sorry about that. One sec. Flip that back.

Um, wow. This is This is trippy. Mr. President. >> Mr. President. >> All right. So, we don't see what you see. It's just >> Yeah, it's coming up. It's coming up. Okay. >> So, I'm just going to speak right now. >> So, we want to live trade some of these mentioned markets. >> Yeah, Leo will pull it up. Um, >> he's starting now. So, it's Yeah, we'll pull it up. Basically, it's on Koshi.

You can see the actual screen. You can see the audio. You can hear it. Um, just give me a sec. Muslim majority countries from around the world including Indonesia was there, Pakistan was there and created this coalition behind this plan. >> You then on that following Monday you met with the prime minister of Israel and that plan was presented >> and then of course our followed up on it in the interim. >> Why is he going to say perhaps the stories will be told perhaps it will never be told. President had some extraordinary phone calls. five for that >> required uh

>> I'm going to take >> a high degree of intensity >> and commitment >> and made this happen. >> I >> and I think what's important to understand is that yesterday what happened was really a human story. There's a geopolitical aspect to it. There's no doubt about it. It creates the conditions for Gaza to one day be a normal place again and people to have a better life and Israelis to be safe. Do we have sound on? >> But yesterday was a human story and because of the work you put it and honestly there is no not only is there no other leader in the world that could have put this together Mr. President but frankly I don't know of any American president in the modern era that could have made this possible because of the actions you have taken unrelated to this and because of who you are and what

you've done and how you're viewed. And this weekend because of that at some point very soon we are going to see 20 living human beings emerge from the darkness into the light for the first time in two years. And that is because not only were you you used the credibility and the power and the prestige of this office and the relationships you created and you committed yourself to making it happen. And I think it will go down as a historic moment um in the history of our country and something our country should be very proud of that we have a president that's committed to the not just peace but to the human aspect of uniting these families. My last point on this is just a couple days ago, Secretary Lutnik hosted us all, many of us at the Kennedy Center and we have these families, we've interacted with

them for so many years uh for so two years now and the stories are heartbreaking both whose families are alive and those who are deceased as well who want their relatives back so that they can uh complete the process of grieving and uh it was uh we had all hoped that perhaps that was the day that we would have an announcement for them on the anniversary of the 7th, but I know you were able to speak to some of those families last tonight and and I just hope the whole nation understands what how incredibly proud they should be of their president and of their country for the role that they've played. And I don't want to let this moment pass, Mr.

President, without al also noting the incredible work of Steve Whit and Jared Jared Kushner. They're an incredible team working together facing some substantial impediments to even being there this weekend and doing it. Suffice let me just leave it at that. >> And they've done a great job on on your behalf, Mr. President. and they deserve a tremendous amount of credit. But thank you for what you've done you to the world. For the world. Thank you very much. >> Appreciate it. I think because we have a very busy day with all that's going on, what we'll do is maybe just uh a few of you raise your hand if you'd like to say something that uh don't talk too long. I like he's doing such a great job. So good that he could talk all day. That's the problem, right?

But go ahead and what we'll do is just take a few hands and then we'll go back to getting peace done. Okay, we'll go a little bit quicker. We'll take a few questions from the press. Go ahead, please. >> President Trump, I just want to double down on what Marco was sharing. Such a remarkable accomplishment. Agreed that no other president could have done this, but what set the groundwork for you able to do that? When you took office on January 20th, you made a 180 degree turn in our military strength uh with Pete's leadership. Uh you you were a the masterclass in peace through strength. So militarily we've completely turned around. We've demonstrated that through execution uh against Iran. Why is windmill force? We want to end wars

but we'll use power if we have to. And then secondarily uh peace through strength is also the prosperity having the strongest economy and will being willing to wield the power of a tariff uh in addition to the military power to reorder the globe. those two things that you're standing on, both economic power and military power, allowed these negotiations to go forward. And I I think as as you've described the importance of these economic negotiations and all the trade deals, but that also begins with another Come on, say hottest Trump.

this guy. This guy. Come on, Trump. Come on. Stay honest. All right, we'll just pull this back out for a sec. Um, pull it back to Rob and I. And, uh, basically what this guy's saying is that I mean, they're talking about the military and we're going to get the screen audio up here in just a sec. Leah, let's just put back to Rob and I

record numbers of her treatment. Come on. Wow. All right, we'll give guys just give it one sec. We're we're we're going to get this fired up for you guys. Um just got to fix the fix the quick uh audio setup here. One sec, man. So we we need Trump to say honest

is basically what we need. Um, >> yeah, Rob. I mean, I don't know if this is really that great of a bet if I'm being honest. We'll see. You're on mute, I think. But >> yeah. Yeah, we only went with hottest. >> Yeah. All right, let's go back.

should be good to go. >> This is um the the mention markets are definitely the most fun live playing out in real time. >> Yeah, the the loop back setting was auto on mute when capturing is really silly. Um, >> okay. So, if we pull it back up, it should work. >> Yeah. And we can keep playing it.

Hopefully, he says, "Uh, hottest." Here we go. We're We're up on hottest now. J just called Chuck Schumer a Palestinian. People are cracking up. Government

shutdown. Hot topic. Maybe the hottest topic. Dude, Rand Paul is such an interesting guy.

>> We're just talking about um what's that? >> I don't think this is going to hit, man. Honestly. >> No, they're on press questions now. Could work. Now there's a little more volatility here in his responses. >> Yeah, it could be. Could be. Um well, that was that. So, >> we'll kind of see what happens um and what kind of comes what kind of comes of this. But as of right now, as of right now, >> I think uh I think it's pretty clear that the government shutdown is the key is a key main topic here.

Interesting. This guy just said 67. [Music] All right, guys. Um, let's go ahead and just

roll off here and close out. Um, and yeah, guys, we'll have to figure out, uh, we'll figure this out. Um, yeah. I don't think that this is going to hit, but uh, yeah let's Yeah, a lot of things happening. Bobby, do you want to say something? Um, I for one think this is a new paradigm in in live entertainment. I think mention markets I think you know there there was also a sports betting platform called better that let that let you bet on like live like playbyplay.

Obviously the issue here is liquidity and fragmentation across different markets. >> Yeah. >> Like you need market makers to take directional risk on what is going to happen on a particular play in order for them to make that market. >> It could be is this putt going to drop? Is this play going to be a run or a pass? Is this free throw going to go in? Is Trump gonna say yes or no? Like >> each of the this is going to and this is a general trend like financialization is accelerating.

So we're going to have a proliferation of markets, a Cambrian explosion of markets. I think that term is now applicable again. Cambrian explosion of markets. It's going to lead to greater price discovery on assets and outcomes that we previously did not think was possible and we we previously did not see and that's going to give us a lot of information about the world and I and multiple people I think Bellagi I mean Nick from Allora like like people have said time and time again in this industry that markets are the greatest insight to our reality. They are the truest form of information. I think Shane from Poly Market I'm sure Trek this is something that prediction

markets are very very uh this is a very core belief of prediction markets. So we'll continue to draw information out of these markets and as there's more markets it'll give us more information but there needs to be people to make these markets because if there isn't and and these markets are liquid they're going to be conveying in inaccurate and and like incorrect information about about the world. Y >> and so this is going to provide an opportunity for market makers to diversify their business into new sectors. But there's going to be new market making firms that come out as a result of this. Firms that are specialized in the weather, specialized in politics, specialized in sports, marketmaking firms in these burgeoning

non nontraditional financial industries. >> Yep. is is probably one of the most nent markets and industries that are out there right now. I expect it to boom right alongside the Cambrian explosion of markets that are out there. And it's going to ultimately I think the prediction market platform and the and the and the exchanges that win are going to be the ones that are able to consolidate liquidity and foster relationships with these market makers in these emerging markets in these emerging sectors because you I mean just to think how like on a on a any given Sunday or Saturday whether it's college football, pro football you have a hundred plays going on in each game and

you have a dozen games. So you're you're talking thousands and thousands of markets that originate and expire in the same day. And that is just that that is a rapid explosion and acceleration in the cap in the velocity of capital that is flowing through these markets. >> We need high TPS chains. We need highly performant market making systems in order to keep up with the type of information information flowing through these systems.

>> Yep. >> I agree, Rob. It's been a great stream. Fun fun uh fun segments, good rumor mill, fun little betting market at the end. We'll see what if we end up hitting on that. I doubt it. But guys, we'll see you guys tomorrow. Um, yeah. Signing off >> and