The Return of Aave | Stani Kulechov

Transcript

hey bankless nation welcome to another episode of state of the nation where we do a deep dive on a hot topic the hot topic this week is ave v3 the return of ave super excited about this new ave version just launched we have the founder of ave on the episode today and we're going to talk with stani all about the launch of ave we're going to talk about some other things too david what uh what's on the agenda for today yeah ave has expanded its scope just beyond borrowing and lending so in addition to ave we're going to talk a little bit about lens protocol we had a christina from from ave on to on our panel all about social the web3 social world uh which is something that is boiling under the

scenes i think behind the behind the the front front page of web 3. social web 3 is a thing and ave the team at ave is kind of leading the charge so there's so much to unpack with ave v3 but there's also so much to unpack with uh lens protocol and of course donnie has been around since before you and i ryan and so i would just want to pick the brain of an og d5 builder that's kind of seen at all what's he think about the world of crypto in 2022 we're going to get into all of these subjects yeah i've got a lot of questions for him particularly on that uh that last piece right to be able to pick his brain and talk about will will defy ever recover relative to eth what does he think about this new crop of um defy 2.0 builders

this this new class these uh these young hooligans and are they shaking things up so a lot more to talk about guys uh before we get into the episode want to tell you a bit more about zurion our friends at zurion they've got an announcement a special announcement i think we've been talking about this for the last couple of weeks they are releasing a multi-chain world here a lot more to explore on xerion zirion of course is a place where you could take your non-custodial wallet whether that's metamask whether that's your ledger you keep your private keys you plug it into this fantastic interface and then you could do things do things with your crypto money imagine that that's what d5 provides and you could do things cross chain so

if you look at this david i've got optimism here i've got avalanche i've got ethereum across multiple layer twos and also across alternative layer ones you can also bridge be a bridge or you can move from ethereum to polygon in just one click with xeron as well if you click this more button you can see save borrow other things you can do within the xerion interface man this is a way a bank should be right because this is a bankless user interface i think everyone everything we were hoping would come true when stani started the ave protocol now coming true in d5 with interfaces and aggregators like xerion what else you want to say about this awesome tool david well this is going to

be particular particularly relevant because this is a brand new feature in ave v3 we're going to talk about it's called portals because of av3 is not on the ethereum l1 exclusively it is all across so many different layer twos and other layer one chains uh and so not only is xerion bridging between all the chains but so is ave itself so i think xeron's probably going to ultimately be an interface for the many many different versions of ave v3 that are deployed all across the crypto universe so this is a very timely topic to be talking about a multi-chain multi-layer 2 world yeah absolutely so all you got to do is grab your wallet your non-custodial wallet plug it into xerion you'll see a link in the invite to do that and get

started track your assets uh david got to ask you the question i ask at the outset of these conversations which is what is the state of the nation today ryan the state of the nation is upgrading this one was easy this week we are certainly upgrading in ave v3 this is the state of the nation of course not only is ave v3 upgrading from v2 to v3 but we are upgrading from a monolithic l1 world to a world of many many chains whether you believe the future is multi-layer 2 or multi-chain we are upgrading nonetheless and so ryan we are going to explore what does it mean to upgrade in the world of 2022 in crypto so ryan we are upgrading this week that's a great topic guys i can't wait to talk to stani it's been over a year

maybe more since we've had him on the podcast so can't wait to pick his brain a bit more we will be right back with stani but before we get to the conversation we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible so you've got some money but how are you going to use it you want to spend me shopping now bro when you know you should be saving you'll never buy a house at this rate but what if you could spend and save at the same time for the enlightened kind with inquiring minds a new world awaits set yourself free with completely flexible self-repaying loan technology supported on desktop and mobile sees the

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the long wait times or high fees to get your assets back to the layer 1. assets are bridged and available for use almost instantaneously across these bridges are powered by uma's optimistic oracle to securely transfer tokens from layer 2 back to ethereum across is critical ecosystem infrastructure and ownership is being handed over to the community you can be a part of this story of across by joining the discord and becoming a co-founder and helping to design the fairfare launch of a cross if you want to bridge your assets quickly and securely go to across.to to bridge your assets between eth optimism arbitrom or boba networks living a bankless life requires taking control over your own private keys and that's why so many in the bank list nation already have their ledger

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apps and services that you're already used to doing like swapping tokens and staking so if you don't have a ledger hardware wallet go to ledger.com grab a ledger and take control over your crypto guys we are back talking about the return of ave with none other than the founder of ave stani he is the founder and ceo of ave he's a builder in d5 before we called it d5 i'm pretty sure you remember the ethelen days david remember those days uh now he's expanding his horizons to the world of web 3 and social we're going to talk about ave v3 which was just released we're going to talk about web 3 social what that means we're also going to get his take on the state of d5

today because stani is an og d5 builder and he's going to lend us a lot of perspective stani been a long time since we've seen you on bankless man welcome back thank you so much it's good to do a comeback here thanks thanks ryan thanks david uh and um nice to meet all the dj's here too that's right you know what so um we called this episode the return of ave but the truth is ave never left you guys have been doing stuff uh for a very long time and shipping every step of the way that's uh you know why why i think ave rose to prominence is because you have one of the the the shippiest teams in all of crypto and all of d5 but um before we get into

kind of the meat of what you've shipped recently with ave v3 i'm just curious man so what have you been up to lately what's what's uh stani been doing lately how are you dividing your time these days yeah i guess uh well i would say that most of my time goes into uh into definitely into the building so i i try to spend as much as time as possible uh in the product side and of course a bit on this strategy but recently all the time that i i have more left uh i'm trying to envision a bit more where uh and which direction the victory uh is going towards and of course uh in terms of the talent creation because the other team is

is growing uh i think last time when i was um uh in bangklis uh we had 17 18 uh team members at ave and now we have uh almost reaching 100 so we're scaling in that sense and i think the reason actually why we are shipping quite a lot of things is that we have an amazing team that is just dedicated on pushing these protocols and interesting uh uh interesting innovation out so it pretty much is a kind of like a uh team effort and and i i think like that's what i realized uh recently that you know if you if you want to go very far uh you really

need to do it in a team effort way so that has been uh my kind of a focus at the moment and finding new new things to to build of course stanley uh the ave team has always in my mind kind of stood out from the rest uh ryan said the shippiest which is definitely definitely an interesting and appropriate adjective i would say to describe the ave team and defy has certainly progressed as well since we've last talked and in order to kind of set the context for this conversation about the details of ave v3 i first want to get your take on what defy what crypto what what web3 has really done in 2021 that might have informed some of the decision making on the ave team to build certain features into ave v3 so again

kind of just like zooming out and getting your take uh we haven't talked since 201 crypto happened so how would you just zoom out and reflect on 2021 crypto and what it means for defy and how would you say that's impacted some of the decisions uh both behind the leadership and decision making at ave and also how that's gone into some of the prioritizations of av-3 yeah definitely a lot i mean uh when we uh first we built the other version one so we were building a protocol that we imagined uh holding maybe uh 20 uh uh 30 million worth of value log in smart contracts very early days in 2019 uh ended up holding

a few hundred million worth of uh assets and then with the version version two we were planning that maybe we'll hold a few hundred million uh maybe up to billion and in the current state across all the networks is is pretty much uh securing roughly uh uh 14 billion worth of value in the smart contracts so essentially when we approach the uh version three uh up up upgrade of the the protocol and the code base we we took two big initiative one um what was very important to us is the risk factor so we started to realize that

the ecosystem has started to grow and not not only in the sense that we have very interesting uh money legos we have very good uh base uh line protocols uh from from lending from uh trading but also that the space has grown uh and spilled over into multiple networks uh and and there's a lot of user adoption here so we realized that these protocols are starting to scale and they have uh uh protocol market fit and what's uh fascinating here is that um we understood that maybe actually these protocols will be used especially abe in a way that we use https or iprotocol when we browse the internet so they

might be utilized by everyone who has access to finance uh directly or indirectly so we started to think like how we can actually put the risk factor in front of how we're balancing things we always build in a way that we want to build resilient uh safe and secure protocols but you know it's people and talent where it's building so there's always uh risk that we need to mitigate and also there's governance that uh adds risk or uh reduces risk depending on what kind of assets or risk spinal readers are said so we try to uh build in a risk adverse way and second thing uh what was important for us is the capital efficiency so many of these uh protocols are layered in a way that

uh you know you might be using 1d5 protocol but under the hood there is another uh protocol that the funds are going and a third one and and there's a lot of layering and different kinds of governance levels as well so the the capital efficiency played quite a lot of role because we wanted to ensure that uh it's a competitive protocol that we're building and at the same time it's scalable in in terms of uh risk uh wise so and also something that's brand new in the world of 2022 crypto um and also later into the second half of 2021 is the an explosion of many many chains including uh many layer two chains alternative layer one chains i know you were just at the avalanche summit i

believe in barcelona spain i think yes yeah uh and there's just growing ecosystems spanning uh like kryptos are spreading its tentacles all across everywhere including alternative layer ones and ave v3 is actually being deployed on i believe six different evm compatible chains uh polygons yeah polygon phantom avalanche uh a few others which ones am i missing uh uh arbitrary optimism harmony and of course the ethereum l1 and i think that i think that is a great place to start when it comes to ave v3 because one of the cool new features in ave v3 is something that you guys are calling portals can you walk us through portals and what is brand new with ave v3 when it comes to portals

yeah definitely so portas is essentially a feature where we realize that um you know there's a lot of transaction between one particular chain to another there's this bridging element so bridge essentially is a kind of like a community service that is provided by um a project community or uh which is usually a multi-signature wallet where you know it holds the transactioning and messaging between one network to another so for example when you want to uh access the the polygon network but you have your funds in layer one you have to get them some way into that other network so essentially what happens is that you lock your funds in the domain network and then on the another network uh equal amount

of funds uh maybe so uh can't speak anymore even like reduced by the fee uh um reduced by the fee basically that's the amount you get on the another network and essentially uh the the challenge with the bridges is that you know moving this liquidity is is very clunky at the moment uh it takes a bit well actually quite a lot of time and and also it's not very capital efficient most of the assets are sleeping actually in those deposit contracts so with this portal feature we realized that you know uh actually landing protocols like are a very good place to store assets across different networks wherever those um uh

those protocols are deployed so essentially um if if we store assets in protocols like ave it means that uh would be actually interesting if you can move the assets with the accounting between one network to another in a way that's you have some sort of um trust component there and what we created is this uh portal so portal is a way to actually uh get whitelisted by the other governance and and you are able to actually uh mint and and burn a tokens um in a way where you have a credit line this and this credit line is just for the time that you actually set all the transactions so what happens uh in in an example is that you uh you you

basically uh burn eight tokens uh in one net one network let's say the main of the market and mint them in a polygon market or avalanche market and essentially this feature by itself when you do this transaction under the hood as a bridge or some other entity you're able to create services where you could actually uh deposit into the main ethereum network and actually then borrow on polygon network and repay on on uh let's say layer two like arbitrary or optimistic uh optimism so it's it's it's a way to move funds very seamless way and also the

risk is reduced to the uh caps of what those boards can do so even in the portal there's there's risk mitigation and also there's a lot of space for the community to build additional uh mitigation tools such as staking and and so forth so just to clarify when you use a portal you're not actually moving the assets crosstrain you are like for example you're putting ether into the ave version on ethereum but then the portal allows you to mint uh new value on a different chain using that collateral in the main ethereum version of ave or does ave actually do move the capital for the actual assets from chain to chain so the capital doesn't need to be moved

from change one chain to another so what happens is that basically you you burn the balance uh in in one network and then you basically meet the balance in another network and and basically so you are using uh so-called a token so when you deposit into the protocol what happens is that you you get a tokens in return and what these ports are doing they just are accounting between different networks and this is how we move funds uh faster between the uh the networks itself okay so you deposit ether into like the ethereum version of ave you are received an a a ether or an ave ether but then using a portal you can burn that ave

ether and then have that ave ether be minted on like avalanche or phantom or a polygon is that how it works exactly exactly and then once to get your capital back if you so you always do you always have a deposit of ave of your ether in the ave version of the ethereum l1 or does that become kind of owned by the protocol at the layer one and then you just have a claim on it later how does that work so it's pretty much built in a way where uh it's more about the the accounting so for example if you burn from one place you mean in another place so there's basically kind of like the the accounting balance changes between those different uh markets

and then can you use that a token outside of the ave protocol so like once once you kind of do the burn on ethereum your aether on ethereum and it's over to say polygon can i then use it in other places within the polygon network or is this sort of does it stay contained inside of ave somehow it's inside of the the bridging component so essentially but you could what you could do actually for the users in terms of for example functionality you can build uh for example on the user experience of course the the bin thing and and burning happens in the uh in the um under the hood but basically you can for

example uh you can deposit in one protocol and then you can withdraw from sorry in one network and then we draw in another network but what just happens in in between is that there's just balance minted burn which happens in the uh portal itself so it's kind of like a more of a accounting uh measure and and and basically uh creating unpacked uh tokens and then backing them uh later that is fascinating i guess this is not quite like a bridge but what would you classify this as do you think other protocols will will develop this sort of kind of accounting mechanism to allow the quick transfer of

value from from one chain to another i think so because you what you create here is is uh basically the speed so you can transfer value from one network to another one uh very quickly and efficiently but also you can then create cross chain applications so just to give some example uh many of the features that we created let's say in other version one and two uh we received use cases that we didn't actually kind of like anticipated before so for example with with flash loans which was one of the last implementations that we had into the the protocol what we saw is that you know flash phones started to be used in terms of like arbitrage and and

a bunch of other interesting um uh features so i think like this feature particularly uh the bridging is is one of the use cases but i think the more interesting stuff will happen once once we have a new interesting application coming in and and developers building things so i could imagine you could do a lot of cross-chain activity they deposit in one uh network draw capital in another one and repay in some other network could be one example but there's plenty of use cases probably in the future for this what's fascinating to me is because um there's sort of a question like a the investment thesis

question that's popped up on our radar and i think the bankless communities radar which is okay we've got the birth of all of these different genes some alternative layer ones and also um layer twos right and so the question of will the existing d5 protocols and networks will they spread and kind of invade those chains and maintain market share in those chains or will there be a new set of players in a new set of winners that are i guess geographic specific chain specific winners so not necessarily ave in a network like optimism but some optimism type of lending and borrowing protocol pops up and starts to like win market share against ave but with this portal

feature it feels like what uh you're doing with with what ave is doing is it's building sort of a network effect that crosses chains right so like ave had a massive liquidity net lending and borrowing network effect on the ethereum main chain now with this portal functionality it seems to like be building a network across all of these other chains and i'm wondering if you think that is one way that uh d5 protocols like ave will maintain their network effect as they spread from chain to chain i um i really think so i i think it's a one way to say that it's kind of like a competitive advantage in the sense kind of like that it creates a lot of uh bring sort of efficiency in how capital

flows but for example in the version 3 there is other features that are actually uh i would say brings interesting network effect for especially uh in high transactioning uh networks and with lower costs so for example we have the uh high efficiency mode uh and we call it also as uh e-mode which means that you could borrow one particular asset at very high collateral require borrowing power so for example you can borrow 98 of your uh collateral and it applies to same category of assets so let's say that you have

die as a collateral you can borrow 98 of that value in usdc and and then you can create different kinds of interesting transactions between stable points uh if you want to go long and short but also like uh it brings ability uh to do even uh effects trading on chain with with uh uh high leverage for example if you have a euro stable coin or let's say pound stable coin and you can go with a very high uh leverage which is quite fascinating but there is other use cases for example where you might have for example um staked eat as a collateral and then you borrow let's say up to 95 percent uh eat and

you restake it into the uh eat what i was taking get the steak plate again and and loop a bit so there's sort of kind of like a features and network effects that are actually designed on networks where you have low transaction cost and you need uh speed and just the heat example is fascinating because uh in the other protocol there is one point three or so billion worth of uh staked uh eat as a collateral at the moment with relatively mediocre uh borrowing power so it just showcases like how much you could actually use and there's like even like a longer kind of like a

idea here is that you know uh if you can if you are able to leverage and and have this like liquid staking of eat uh and it might apply towards you let's say liquid avax and and so forth what happens is that landing markets uh like the other protocol might actually have the staking yield reduced by by uh let's say the cost of the liquid staking so you don't need to necessarily go and stake to eat 2.0 uh you could come to the other protocol and you can deposit and withdraw and you know it the the cost difference will not be that uh high so that that might happen uh over

like a longer period of time okay okay so we we just talked about uh portals and we just talked about e-mode a little bit and i i asked you that's you know the specific question if these are ways for avid to build a network effect across chains and you're indicating yes yes they are i guess i want to ask the zoom out question then too while we're here while we're talking about this because this is one of my burning questions for you going to this conversation stani so we are now in a multi uh l1 world multi uh layer two world there's gonna be lots of different chains right so it's no longer the ethereum main chain since we we talked to you in 2020. um so how do you think this works right well we have geographic winners do you think right

it's like you know rather than you to swap you have a pancake swap or something or like a trader joe in in avalanche or do you think some of the big category winners that started on ethereum main chain will migrate to these other chains and just gobble up market share i want you to like put on your forecasting hat and tell me what you think will happen well we have local chain winners or we have will we have some major category winners that span many different chains and another way to ask this is there was a time where i think we thought that um defy would have a whole bunch of blue chip types of assets and blue chip protocols i think this is probably a symptom of price

right with the the d5 pulse index and some of these other blue chip categories where d5 assets have not risen as fast as uh alternative layer one assets and other assets and so people are questioning well maybe every chain will have its own category winner of d5 and so we can't there's no such thing as d5 blue chips anymore um what do you think about all of this do you think we'll have category winners or geographic winners yeah i mean definitely the landscape changed completely over the the the past uh year or year and a half i mean i still remember when uh you know david ryan me including we were a bit more like uh ethereum uh maxis well i mean to certain extent and i mean being born and raised

kind of like in it as well like it's it's very funny looking backwards and and being so naive and thinking like you can transaction in in a scale where we are today with with ethereum at this current state of course uh but like i i i definitely believe that um what you can do with the new change is that like new networks you can build new communities right so you can take something that already exists somewhere you know you can basically you can fork that code base and create a new um new protocol in a new network and and maybe create a community around that but

end of the day um i've seen few other forks and they haven't been super efficient mainly because um you know what counts is the uh community so how much you can actually build a community around the the protocol that's that's the starting point the second is that how much you can actually innovate and what is your rate of innovation so rate of innovation is something uh very important to all communities because especially when we're innovating in a open environment where all code is public you know everyone shares their ideas relatively publicly in governance forums like what to build next um what kind of topics do you work

and and so forth so i would say that uh if the the community can keep up with the rate of innovation and who is able to constantly uh bring new things uh into the environment uh that's where like kind of like we see a lot of uh advancements and it's the job then of the community to actually embrace the technology support good decision making govern the protocol and ensure that risk is managed and and and also kind of like a bunch of other stuff that happens in in governance so i i think like if we have a new network let's say today and there is bunch of new communities there uh it might be that some of those native communities will will spill over to

ethereum other networks and they might be uh they might be very expensive but end of the day what happens and and uh will be important is like how much you're building things and how much you're able to make smart decisions as a community you know what kind of risk parameters you're applying what are you doing with your treasury so let's say ave protocol for example generates roughly 50 million worth of treasury on current annual rate and that treasury is used to further develop um a lot of parts of the protocol improvements technical depth um you know and there's a bunch of protocols sitting on on big treasuries

but they're doing anything necessarily and this is where you can actually can compete a lot and i think it's very naive even to think about um a protocol that let's say uh as a lending protocol uh to think in a way that you know we are only bound uh to let's say lending or like uh we will not do trading in the future end of the day it's all about how big community and big tao you can uh build and and the network effect so i think it's it's all about innovation end of the day that's fascinating the cross train portals dani is like such a huge conversation and it's really just one of three big innovations out of out of ave uh yet we have spent so much time

talking about it and i'm not done yet because i still have a few more questions about the whole portal thing and the the question is it doesn't sound like you guys are using any bridges you're not using connext to get to arbitrarily or optimism and you're not using wormhole or any other sort of bridge to get cross layer one it seems to be it seems to me you've built your own messaging system between all the implementations of ave on all the various chains uh and and so i'm wondering how does the accounting work is there like a central essential source of truth of the accounting for all aves across all the various trains or is it kind of just between the if like i deposit ether on the ethereum chain

and then i want to mint a ether on avalanche the ethereum version of ave pings the avalanche version of ave to mint that a ether there because through the portal how does that communication platform work is there one central ledger or is it just a matter of communication between aves and can you kind of just talk about the security trade-offs between using an actual bridge versus a messaging platform between the different versions of ave yeah so there's there's one uh thing i need to correct is that there is basically the uh the portal is a place where you can get uh depth as a port so so a port can be a bridge for example so what we what we are planning uh to do and like

how we vision the the portal feature to work is that there's different kind of bridges uh at the moment there's a bunch of selection that you can have you have you can have hub protocol you have uh connects and all these bridges and what the what the the bridges can actually do is that they can get the credit line to uh mint and burn a tokens basically up to a certain cap for example so and this cap is voted by the the other governance meaning that uh let's say uh we have a new bridge that is uh requesting to become one of the ports and and to meet and burn a tokens and and then the other governance needs to decide okay so what would be the amount that uh that particular bridge

based on you know their technology you know their community uh reputation they they should basically be able to uh meet and burn up to that particular cap so one thing uh so that's just the this starting point the the second thing uh the the phase two will be to think so if there is the the cap to mint them uh into a certain uh depth level uh essentially how we can actually backstop that main thing should there be some sort of like a staking separate staking module or the current safety module applying to that um those uh uh uh minting caps or how we should do and that's pretty much something that we

haven't built before uh yet and it's more about the the other governance to to kind of like decide whether to apply token economics there or or just uh rely on the reputation that okay we trust that hope breach you know they they basically uh clear their accounting and and kind of like the there won't be any differences between uh different networks in their balances so it actually empowers uh the current bridging ecosystem okay so yeah so it does tap into the various bridges that are yes train cross layer two are there bridges that ave has already supported or is that up to ave governance it's completely up to other governance

essentially and there is a recently uh a proposal well it's more of a governance uh discussion made by mark zeller from from the uh genesis team of a framework of actually how do you apply uh to become a port in the uh portal and essentially it's just a white listing of a particular uh address by the other governance of course the bold case for bridges is that so many users will be porting uh money across them and and making a lot of volume go across the bridges but i think people are always forgetting that it's probably actually going to be the defy apps themselves that use bridges way more than the actual users and i think ave is a fantastic example of this and of

course uh just just to reiterate the the significance of a multi-chain multi-layer one multi-layer two world is definitely uh uh illustrated and how important this portal topic is and why we've given that it so much time but i think ryan i think we're ready to move on to some of the other two uh big features out of ave v3 the next one uh stani is efficiency mode which you alluded to earlier but can we just back up and start from scratch with efficiency mode what is e-mode yeah so e-mode is really fascinating so essentially whatever if you have a same category assets so same category could be like one stable coin uh collateral against another stablecoin borrow and that could be like a usd

stablecoin collateral uh euro borrow so typical scenario is that you could for example deposit uh 100 000 worth of uh usd uscc into the protocol borrow uh up to 98 000 uh let's say euro stable coin and then you can sell the euro if you are going for a short or vice versa so it it actually allows you to do this kind of like a very efficient um uh effects trading event but also that's that apply and between two different uh same stable point if there is some sort of arbitrary difference between let's say usdc and uh usd

t for example but also it applies to same acid categories for example between eat and and liquidate for example steak aid and in that use case for example uh you can you can deposit your it into a liquid staking provider such as lidar finance and and then you get in return stake eat you can deposit it back to the protocol and borrow again eat and redeposit and make it more capital efficient of your uh it's taking so you can leverage on on your staked eat essentially and and this is the the reason it's more uh high efficiency is because um the eat and steak it they correlate in the same

way in terms of the the volatility the same way as for example uh usdc and die they correlate quite closely in volatility because they're packed into the same currency there is minor differences of course and in terms of let's say usdc collateral and your borrow what happens there is that there is just minor amount of volatility because uh fiat currencies are less volatile than we we anticipate kind of like a uh the crypto uh assets to be same applies to uh uh bitcoin and and bitcoin as an example really the theme i'm seeing here with all these innovations and on all of av three is just empowering users to be

able to do more just unlocking the full power of defy with more and more optionality for the users the the last uh big feature that i think comes out of ave v3 is what's called isolation mode and i think this kind of really taps into ave's strengths and it's really its differentiator from what has perceived to be a historical competitor compound where compound has been kind of the ultra conservative very few collateral types where alves lends itself a little bit more to opening up more collateral types allowing for more and more use cases to come about but of course you can't onboard every single collateral type because every single collateral type has its own risks so i think this uh this isolation mode which i'm going to ask you about in a second is really trying to get the best of both worlds where ave

really lets itself be useful to the long tail of assets while compartmentalizing that risk of those assets to make sure that it doesn't have any contagion to the rest of ave stani could you explain isolation mode and what it is and how it's helpful for users yeah an isolation mode is something that actually the rise of the um how the other community works and and the spirit of the community because uh the other community and and um david you gave an example for example about compound like in ave i think the the community has always been excited about listing new assets and every new asset or going to a new network is always a new

opportunity to tap into the user base into new culture um and in case of there's been a lot of asset listings but very very conservative uh risk parameters so so basically the listing has been very um more kind of like a uh flexible but then we kind of like compensate in a way where we have just uh more conservative risk parameters compared to other uh lending protocols so essentially we were thinking like uh if you believe in the future where all of these assets will be tokenized real world assets uh you know and we have just bunch of bunch of assets depending on um like govern use to govern different d5 protocols or

just getting community members together in in greater economy and of these and and whatnot so we just believe that there's going to be um you know hundreds of different assets that are like um relatively uh suitable for uh using as a collateral or getting listed into the other protocol what's important is that we have a way of scaling where new assets could be listed into the protocol in a way where it can happen very early but the risk is mitigated so the mitigation here is that an asset can be listed by decision of other governance in so-called isolation mode meaning that normally when you deposit into an acid into the other protocol

let's say you have feed and then you deposit abe you can use those both borrowing powers and just borrow anything you want and that's your whole kind of like a collateral that that is used to to uphold them and keep your position in isolation mode what happens is that uh you can use that particular acid as a collateral but um in a way that you can't use your other assets as a collateral and and this means that that particular asset is siloed uh away from the the other collateral uh exposures and on top of that there's minor addition like across all the assets is the fact that we have supply caps

everywhere so each single pool has a supply cap and also the exposure the borough cap as well so essentially this means that we could list a new asset relatively quickly with a very low depth cap supply caps and also uh isolated and this brings uh new communities users to to use the protocol that's really fascinating and i'm glad obvi is doing that it will help ava conquer kind of the long tail of of tokens and get new collateral sources on bordered more quickly i'm curious while we're on this subject um since the last time we talked there's been a lot of protocol development uh one protocol which is interesting and maybe not the specific one but the philosophy under getting it is um rari and the the rari

capital um token and they have sort of a like an ungovernance sort of uh process right there's there's not an actually on-chain vote for um creating a new collateral pool instead they sort of let the market uh create whatever pool they want in a permissionless way and sort of price the risk accordingly what do you think of approaches like like rory is that interesting for ave or is that kind of counter to uh to the premise of what the ave protocol is trying to do no i think it's it's quite fascinating what they're doing and i i really appreciate it because essentially uh governance minimization is an important topic and it's something where uh many protocols can actually

they can uh function without governance for example uh protocol like uni swap could function without governance but you know the governance can actually manage the treasury and there's a bunch of things that actually get all the all those community members together so it makes sense there as well in terms of the um the the permissions listing for example the in ave protocol we added a feature into the into the reserves called risk admins it's a access control to create additional smart contract logic where you could basically create a logic based on permissionless listing but for example you could

bind it with with let's say token economics uh different kinds of staking ideas where you know uh by staking let's say abba into a particular asset you can increase um the the loan to value ratios which is the the borrowing powers and even affect the the interest rate rate curves so that is something that can be built further with this risk admin uh features uh my kind of like a challenge with the the permissions uh listing is that how do we ensure that kind of like a uh right people are using that but that's also kind of like a ux uh question but i think governance minimization is very important and i love what they're also

doing in terms of the uh the idea of delegation of governance and for example in our case like delegation of governance can be delegating the listing to risk admins delegating interest rate strategies to service providers such as for example gauntlet for example at the current state gauntlet is providing dynamic risk parameters so they're actively monitoring the markets and and proposing new parameters to the other governance now the challenge here is that uh every single vote actually requires um to reach the the the avidao uh the short timelock forum everyone needs to come together and you have need to have

um quite a big amount of uh capital and votes to pass that kind of proposal but if you have brackets where actually service providers like content could actually um uh submit those parameters you could actually delegate to that entity and and this decision can be made by the other governance you know it can be like pre-delegated in the future again depending on you know if there's more competition or um and and and different kinds of uh scenarios so the protocol is ready for that kind of uh feature but it's depends on the the governance like how much they want to introduce risk and if there's more risk or delegation uh to what extent as well but

essentially it's there for for for the governance and and ready for the version two three one thing i love about the ave community's approach to all of this is ave is like always moving forward like it's always pushing the ball for it and i think in in a lot of crypto circles and sometimes you know maybe maybe bankless dude dave and i um we we we glorify or we overemphasize the value of ossification right ossification because now no one can change it and you know what you get and it's a beautiful thing only that only the code is in charge right no longer humans um and like many things about ave are ossified but also you guys are continuing to push the envelope and build new features and

expand into new uh horizons and as i said you're always moving forward i'm curious is there anything else you want to mention about the v3 features that's kind of one question and the second question tied to that is is also like is there ever a time at which ave is done like is v3 the the fully ossified version of ave or is there going to be a v4 a v5 a v6 a v you know 10 are we going to have as many aves as we have uh iphone versions yeah how many shows are we going to do with ustani what's a year maybe so those two those two questions what else in v3 should we know about and uh when is ave done i mean there is a long list of different kinds

of improvements that we have made there is there is gas optimization as well and and kind of like a um we have also the the ability to um ensure that for example in layer two is if sequences are down so there's a kind of like a remorse period before liquidation can occur so so there's a lot of uh smaller features that are uh specifically related to l2 and a lot of technical improvements um but i think also like something that we haven't shield uh enough is the fact that we also revamped the whole uh user experience so we what we took is that we rebuilt the whole other

application from scratch uh which is was amazing um and and i'm super excited that we did that decision in our development team because essentially we have an application that just functions well way better uh at the moment and and the user experience is way uh more smoother and the thing is that it's a community ui so it's it's accessible through ipfs you know and anyone can actually uh contribute to that code base as well one of the challenges in in default is that you usually build monolithic products so you want to build you know the safe secure thing and and then you know it there's just very difficult to contribute as a developer when you come

into this space because you necessarily don't know how to build uh smartphone jack infrastructure uh and and you know the front that might be your way to battery uh in terms of like contributions so we did that uh as well and in terms of versions i think like we're trying to actually decentralize more and more the uh development of the of the ecosystem and we would love to see more people contributing uh directly and and to of course our team as well uh but essentially i don't think there is going to be uh an ending of of uh innovation i i think our our community loves that there is enough funding in a treasury it's a

self-sustainable dow uh the ecosystem is just riding i just don't see a way where we could stop uh doing what we're doing at the moment and so that was all of ave v3 but what's interesting to me about ave ave the team avi the organization is that just building on ave seems to not be enough for stani the builder and the ave team because there's a whole entire other world going on with ave in regards to lens protocol and uh sony we've had you on for almost an hour now and it was just about ave v3 but there's so much more to talk about so we're gonna have to cut to sponsors here in a second but there's been some twitter activity between you and elon musk there's also a growing social media mafia that i think you are

growing over on the ave team there's a lot of things to talk about with lens protocol so right after we get back from the break i wanted to pick your brain all about that but first before we get there we have to take a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible if you're going bankless you need metamask this is your tool to unlock the world of defy without giving up custody over your private keys metamask is both a secure in-browser wallet and also a secure bridge for your hardware wallet you can now trade tokens on any decks or aggregator metamask swap gathers real-time pricing information across all the default exchanges allowing you to select your best price while getting all the metamask benefits of self-custody lower gas costs and increased transaction success rates metamask also has a fantastic mobile wallet that i use

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market price no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy the uniswap grants program is accepting applications for grants do you have something of value that you think you want to contribute to the uniswap ecosystem no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply it for a unique grant at uniswap grants.org and help steer you swap in the direction that you think it should go thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless all right guys and we are back with stani from ave and stanley something's interesting is going on with your twitter header on on the both mobile and desktop but if you go to sony's twitter his header says this pfp real estate is

for rent and you have your twitter uh picture just as a blank white circle what's going on with that sony what are you up to on your twitter profile yeah i i think i've been kind of like recently like quite a lot of like you been very curious about um social media and and you know how to build uh more innovation on that side but especially this experimentation is is pretty much uh kind of like an uh i would say like an event to raise a bit of uh funds for the uh uh shify but also it's kind of like an interesting experiment in the sense that uh what if you could actually you know rent uh you know your profile

picture real estate to someone else or or maybe your header and uh to be honest like the web to social media it doesn't have the kind of like a features to do that but at the same time um uh it's it's something that's um you know it's not part of the the to social media and how it's structured today and i think like it boils down towards like a bigger discussion of what we have been uh talking about at all so we obviously we we built a social graph called lens protocol and one of the main things there is that you know you have the ownership of your profile on chain and also the relationship with your

followers and there is a lot of things regarding towards like what we're building less protocol but also there's so much innovation missing currently in the web 2 social which is just um kind of like a uh i don't know i i feel what i've seen now recently especially like what we're building with social graph is that we could actually take the experience way more further and bring the uh value back to the users and i think that's what that's just part of what we're doing at the moment this kind of unlocks my curiosity right so like are you envisioning a world with web3 where it's much more open like twitter you can't do this but somebody could create like a composable as some

sort of primitive like d5 plus web 3 kind of mashup where i could just like bid on your profile picture for a week and like maybe that's in stable coins or something but just like i i suddenly can bid and own rent out your your profile picture for a week and it's all very seamless and automated and you know um i guess you know taps into the power of your community are these types of features what excite you about web3 or give us some like sci-fi type features yeah because in the current form the way we build up to social uh how it works essentially is that you know you you have different

kind of interactions you as a user you you create your audience in a uh one platform and uh you can't move that audience from one place to another so you're kind of like bound towards that let's say database and the platform and so forth and essentially you're also bound the way that they uh you know the algorithms they use and the way they monetize and collect data so essentially web 2 social is is about capturing the data interactions that you you do on the platform and then selling services and products to you that you might uh buy that's that's pretty much how it works and all the algorithms is adjusted to finding you uh what you could buy and and

increasing the the revenue so at the moment there there isn't a way actually to um have a system where you know all the developers just come to can come together and build competing algorithms competing user experiences and and actually um allow the users to vote with their feed uh very easily and go towards applications that are providing them better uh outgos you know more algorithms that maybe are ex have more of the exploring side instead of like this echo chamber that you have in twitter so what we did is that we created a protocol that is essentially a social graph

meaning that you create your profile once and anyone that builds an application on top of the the lens protocol can leverage of the whole social graph user base so you as a developer you don't need to focus on actually growth hacking uh the the platform and the network effect and social building social media is very hard uh these days uh just to give an example i mean creating something like clubhouse takes a lot of effort and you have to create a big platform but here let's say if you have 10 to 15 applications build on top of the lens protocols protocol they're all growth hacking the same social graph essentially everyone is helping to each other feeding the graph

providing users and sharing resources essentially it's a public good for for the whole community and does this give me self-sovereignty over my social graph yes and for me the the coolest thing is of course like i can go and create the the uh uh profile for myself and that profile is also that's very heavy use of the organization so the profile is tokenized and also the the follow graph is tokenized so for example when i uh follow for example uh david i'm i'm his uh first follower so i will get david follow nft number one uh and if ryan is the second one uh for some reason ryan gets default uh

token id uh number two and so forth and those follow token uh tokens nfts they always reflect uh the content that you post so they're dynamic nfds so for example when um david has a picture of a dog uh the following of these will as a content posted those those following this will reflect the picture of the dog so if david decides to post a picture of the cat the following of these will update dynamically and showcase uh the picture of the cat and that's a dynamic nft so it essentially makes all the front ends whether it's an application build on top of the lens protocol or it's open c or

some other wallet they become uh by default uh distribution channels and contents for the common social graph which is quite insane if you think about it and then uh you can of course collect the content so from those dynamic nfts you can actually uh collect immutable uh nfts as well so if i really really like the picture of the cat what can i actually do i can collect it but also the collection logic is set by the the application and and david so that it can basically say that only my followers can collect this or followers token id let's say one sorry ryan and and then uh alternatively like maybe token id2 but you have to have board 8

in your wallet uh as well so a bunch of logic or you can auction or have limited edition so the reason why there's a lot of optionality is that the whole protocol is uh built on with smart contracts and everything is modularized so one thing we learned with the uh our protocol is that to get a lot of contribution you need to create pieces of your smart contract infrastructure where everyone can come and create a new module a new piece a new kind of a logic just to give an example there's community members that have built bonding curve curve collection logics uh also a very fascinating uh follow uh module where you pay to follow uh to the

uh profile owner and then the profile uh owner can actually share the revenue of the collects so you can actually create uh creator uh uh funding as well and and share the proceeds of your uh your net your kind of like a broadcasting channel i know david has a follow-up question but i just i just wanted to make one one comment here which is like this this early um i guess analogy we've had about crypto which is like you know a tech tree tech tree in a video game that you slowly unlock and so many of the things that you just said the reason why web 3 wasn't possible in 2016 or like web3 social wasn't possible in 2016 or or 2018 or even 2020 because we

didn't have we didn't unlock the um the previous branches on the tech tree and now we have right it's like things that words that use like tokens right well that came from smart contracts that came from d5 now they're maturing so we have that primitive that we're working with in nfts and now we have uh that primitive that that we're working with as well and now we have like the in raw ingredients to start to create and change social graph and scalability right what what you said to you son he's going to require a lot of block space it strikes me so the reason we didn't see web3 social i think in the earlier manifestations is because we hadn't unlocked the tech tree and now we've got these branches the tech tree and now

maybe we're ready for web3 social but if we are it feels very much like today 2020 uh two in web 3 is kind of like nfts were in like 2019 like we're just like scratching the surface and they haven't had their mainstream moment that was my comment david i know you got a question though yeah we're a little bit beyond this but for the public record uh david will not be posting cat photos on on lens protocol strong strong team dog over here oh well done uh i'll have to get that lens protocol in the stream in a second but just for the listeners here's here's my like understanding of this and sony correct me if i'm wrong but this is imagine if we had like twitter has its specific algorithms instagram has its specific algorithm facebook has its specific

algorithm but the way that i'm understanding lens protocol is that we can more or less recreate a lot of these very basic algorithms but it's the algorithms that become interchangeable as in like now there's surface area for developers to compete on the best algorithm for the users and so lens protocol it's not a social media platform it's not a twitter it's not a facebook it's a social media meta platform it's like a meta platform for hosting many types of social medias that allows um whereas facebook is very very closed and well gardened and so is twitter and so is basically every other web 2 social media or like platform lens protocol is the inverse of that it's uh you know opening it up to developers to

compete to build their own algorithms and their own profiles and their own uh platforms for users to have fun in in the ways that you know we always kind of hoped web 2 platforms would would have blossomed into is that is that a good mental model or and what would you add to that yeah it definitely is because uh something we realized with with uh decentralized finance and definitely one of the building blocks that had to happen before that and you know nfd's greater economy is that when you have an open ecosystem where everyone can contribute and and and there is no kind of like a barrier or the battery is very low uh you will see a lot of fun and a lot of innovation uh happening and in terms of uh and of course like open system means that uh you could build

things that maybe you couldn't do in a closed system before so essentially let's say if you have an open social graph where you know anyone can pretty much create their profile and their their follow graph and and by the way this is amazing too also for uh dao's because um uh first time ever a dao can actually uh own a permissionless uh profile and and and also have a broadcasting channel to their audience so for example the avidao can create a uh and own a lens uh handle and what it means that if you have a big smart contract change or any kind of government governance

update part of that smart contract payload you could also have you know post this um change log or the output of this governance decision uh also into the lens uh protocol to to all the uh uh followers so it's a way to also create permissionless uh handles for for dows and i think that's gonna be an interesting and fascinating uh use case but just to give example um you know when when you have this uh open social graph uh you know then the the uh builders uh they don't need to focus of actually you know getting a lot of users they can just innovate on on the front end level maybe there's something that you could do better on twitter maybe you can

create completely new experience and social media has always been about how you interact with the content and finding new ways which for example we saw with uh with tiktok and also algorithms and tiktok for example rewards uh things that go viral uh very quickly and people uh like the the content they like and maybe uh it allows also to to build those new algorithms so let's say for example that uh algorithm that rewards something to become viral might not be very healthy or you know you could actually build an algorithm that is more humane uh and or algorithm that is just uh somehow finds you content that you really really like more and you're you're not bound to

the the platform so you have the battle of uh like front ends um competing on the user experiences and also finding new application niche social media and also you have the the kind of like a uh competition between algorithms and then uh i could imagine uh one particular front end where you come and you can actually uh choose different user experiences but you could also choose which algorithm you want to use so you could actually you know drop down and select or swipe different algos you know and it just brings sort of opportunities to the developers and recently we had the

uh aleph grow hackathon which is the first cycle 3 social media hackathon that we did with the global team we had over 530 hackers and 116 different projects being hacked and it's just insane how many young developers are out there and what they can actually build in a short period of time and we saw multiple front ends being built in a period of a week and a half well stania i think i missed you at east denver but this very much aligns with the talk that i gave there which talks about how um where web web 2 protocols when web 2 algorithms are competing to produce rage web 3 protocols are competing for our love and affection so

i would imagine that something with lens protocol would finally enable people to opt out of the rage algorithm and perhaps opt into the love and affection algorithm it definitely sounds like a positive future for us and uh very much in line with the very shippy nature of ave you've approached some pretty interesting talent from around the web to sphere the lead data scientist for twitter stories is now on the team ave we already talked to uh christina for who uh was lead uh tick-tock business development you've also poached some some pretty high quality talent from from apple as well stani what's going on over there are you building like a social media mafia how tell us about the team that's being

built over behind lens protocol yeah i mean we had definitely amazing hires uh in the past year and i'm super proud how much of our team actually is uh there is a lot of combination of uh community members from the bet3 and who has been in the space and and are very experienced in experiencing smart contracts and and talent coming from that three and also uh more from fintechs as well so it's kind of like a very diverse set of of talent that is coming into abe and and definitely i i think it's uh amazing opportunity at the moment that we are able to attract a lot of people from different kinds of industries and especially from big tech i think uh

there's also some sort of realization with uh people that i talk and talent from from big tech in terms of like what the tree as an opportunity means and and how we build things and how the community aspect uh is important here and and i think like many uh folks that are working in uh big tech and in this big social media companies they're pretty much like tired in the models of um having kind of like to build applications where you guys basically extract data from users and kind of like provide this same uh behavior of selling services and and the proposition of user on network it's just a big value proposition and

networks that are actually uh kind of like uh bound by the um governed by the the dallas i i think uh we will see more and more uh talent coming into the space so i'm super excited to uh to hire more so if anyone is out there so just uh reach me out um and and um and you know let's talk more is there a road map for lens protocol when do i get to go play with it as a non-developer as a user that needs the developers to build some stuff what should i be paying attention to with the future of lens protocol yeah i think if you go to dogsatlands.com.dev so

docs.lens.dev um you have an amazing documentation that is done by our engineering team and our our content team tried to make it as beautiful as possible uh you can actually uh interact directly with the smart contracts but also would build a very powerful api and the api means that actually you can extract data from the uh from the protocol without uh in an indexed fashion so for example if you want to get all the data about different kinds of uh you know uh photo modules or or even nfts that that the a particular wallet address has in mainnet or polygon you can do that with the the api so it's it's a way of actually helping people to build faster

uh social media applications and what i want to see more maybe in the future from developers building actually community uh front ends that can be forked by anyone and and we can just uh innovate as fast as possible in the space stani uh we've talked about ave v3 which has been awesome the return of ave even though ave never left um and we also talked about just now lens protocol what you're doing the web3 space i want to just round this out and close this out uh getting getting kind of your your og veteran hat a little bit and your perspective on the space right now so number of things going on that that we we could talk about um and one one question i think i have for

you right now is uh uh it seems like a lot of the the value and some of the the tension at least in the ethereum space has been uh sucked out of d5 recently if at least if you look at kind of token uh market caps and gone into ether right uh so the uh the dpi to eath ratio has been has been bleeding um and people are wondering if defy will will recover against the value of eth what's your take on this are you are you bullish on defy i'm i'm sure your answer's gonna be yes but like how about relatives ether yeah as an asset as denominated in ether what do you think uh swapped my background to ave uh so

i'm putting my defy cat on i i i think i think uh no i i think these protocols are meant to stay and and maybe not the technology itself let's say but uh what is the surplus is is the dallas and the treasuries are collecting uh and and the ability to innovate further so i think what happens is that uh over the period of time those communities that can constantly continue innovating securely and bringing new things into the space um we'll definitely thrive but i think in terms of like user adoption especially with the layer 2s and other networks we will see more and more users coming and i really really believe that web3 protocols are meant to you know be

scaled something like ip or https where they're in in a very quite mainstream adoption it will take time to get there but the important thing is to realize that web3 networks they don't need to grow to like fast as in web 2 platforms for example and especially in social media if you don't have a successful platform in the next in in the couple of years you kind of are in the graveyard zone but in web 3 you know net force can provocate very slowly whether it's social media a good example is enas it has been around for years and it's slowly growing all the time uh pop as well for example started one person giving uh proof of attestation in different events and it's growing into a

protocol and so forth so over a year so everything doesn't need to actually be very much like fast tech here in inventory and that's i think that that keeps me calm and excited to build new things another rapid fire question for you then uh so what's your take on alter alternative layer ones versus the ltu ecosystem on ethereum do you think uh one is going to out compete the other do you think that there's room for both uh just general thoughts on this yeah i i i think there's room for everyone but the market share depends on on how much there is innovation in all of these communities and and and kind of like

and the community support there so i think all of them will exist but then market share will depend on how how much we see those communities building how about this new crop of uh d5 builders that we've seen lately and like under a moniker of uh defy 2.0 it feels like there's some uh there's some defy zoomer blood out there some gen z blood some culture building some new things yeah it's cultural differences from the d5 class of 2018 2019 the d5 class of 2021 and 2022. what do you think of these uh these new d5 builders are you ryan saying i'm i'm i'm older i'm saying all of us aren't we've all aged two decades the last two

years one year in um uh d5 is ten years in a normal life and and one hundred years in tradify so yes uh no i i think it's amazing that that there's a lot of uh young people out there building businesses finance and i think i think one observation is that the more young younger people we have they're more smarter so i don't know how where this kind of like a wisdom comes from but uh it for me like it even takes a lot of time to understand some of these protocols and and and i need to put a lot of effort in investigating and understanding them so i think it's good for the space and i would rather see

more and more innovation and if there's someone out there who actually wants to work together even you know feel free to to message me i'm happy to uh to to to to help as well there you go guys one of the og builders in the space just invited you to message him if you're building something interesting donnie thanks so much this has been a lot of fun and we always appreciate your vision everything you're doing in crypto and in d5 so thanks for taking us through all of this really exciting to see ave v3 launch really exciting to see what you do with lens in the future and all of the other things that you're probably going to build in crypto as well so we appreciate your time thank you so much friend thank you david

this is this was amazing amazing reunion absolutely let's do it again less in less than a year next time yeah let's let's definitely do that um yeah bankless community some takeaways for you i hope you were listening very intently and carefully it seemed to me in the first part we talked a little bit about investing in the community that's what you are doing when you're you're buying a protocol you're not just buying one static idea you're investing in community the best coordinated dows and protocols will win and they are not limited to what they do when they start they can evolve in many different directions we certainly seen that with ave guys if you are on youtube make sure you like and subscribe to this if you are listening to this on the podcast give us a review give us five star review

preferably that's how we get bank list to the top of the charts um risks and disclaimers gotta of course end with these none of this has been financial advice bitcoin is risky even though we didn't talk about it so is it so is defy you could definitely lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the frontier it isn't for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence we recommend joining our daily newsletter podcast and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your bank list

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