Reclaiming Your Online Identity with Intuition | Matt & Billy

Transcript

We've teamed up with the Wormhole Foundation, stewards of the Wormhole protocol, the leading interoperability platform powering cross-chain transfers for 200 plus multi-chain teams. Claim your unique Wormhole NFT just for Zero X Research listeners today. Pair is an innovative pair trading exchange built on top of Symbiotic. Users can trade trending narratives with one click from blue chip narratives such as long BTC, short ETH, right to the WITH versus BONK. The hat stays on. Symbiotic's intent-centric architecture enables deep liquidity sourced off-chain and brought on-chain. And combined with Pair, has the marketized access to complex trading strategies typically reserved for institutional traders. Marinade is a staking protocol on Solana and the only stake pool that delivers auto

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the episode. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Zero X Research. Today we have a great episode lined up with Matt and Billy from Intuition, a decentralized identity protocol. Today is Thursday, April 23rd, but this episode will likely go live on the 9th of May. As a reminder, be sure to use code OX Research 10 at um Blockworks Research for 10% off your subscription. On to the interview with Matt and Billy. Thanks for coming on, guys. How are you doing? Doing well. Thank you guys for having us. Really excited for this. Um before we get started, do you guys want to introduce yourselves and then dive into what decentralized identity is and why we need it?

Absolutely. MK, you want to kick us off? Yeah, sure. Uh my name is Matt. I uh head up operations and strategy at Intuition. I've uh been involved there, I guess, since late Q4 last year, but actually was an investor in the initial uh builders around over a year before that. Um I guess I found my way into crypto seriously late 2016. Um I ran Blockhead Capital from June of 2018 um up through the very end of last year. Um part of Intern DAO and um along the way kind of had an opportunity to choose, you know, how I want to spend my time and and what I want to do most. And a luxury that I think um

I I was grateful for and and very mindful uh with making that decision. And I decided that working with Intuition uh full-time on on the vision that Billy had set forward was was probably the single best use of my time. Um so I'm really excited to talk about uh what we've been cooking on. Heck yeah. Hey everyone. Uh I'm Billy. I've been in crypto for a while. Um been involved with Ethereum since 2014, helped start the blockchain consulting practice at Ernst & Young back in the day. Um transitioned over to ConsenSys after that. I've been at ConsenSys for 7 years. I'm still a special advisor to ConsenSys. Uh did a bunch of things over that time, one of which was decentralized identity. And so whenever

I kind of architect systems, I I I think about them from like the lens of decentralized identity just because it's kind of this foundational pillar upon which to build things correctly, I believe. And so Intuition kind of came about um height of the last cycle when I was doing a ton of angel investing and advisory work. Um and just a little bit of a backstory to frame where this came from because it also helps frame where it goes and helps frame what Intuition is. So uh in that angel investing advisory stuff, I was my unique value prop to people was, "Hey, I've been in crypto for over 10 years.

Let me connect the dots for you. Let me tell you who's come before, who exists now, best practices, tooling, things like that." And and that works great, but I was on a lot of calls all the time and I didn't I didn't really like the calls. And so I was like, "Ooh, how can I disintermediate myself here a little bit?" And so what I did was I exported like my mind map of Web3 into this visual knowledge graph that you could go and navigate yourself. So instead of needing to come to me to ask me like, "Hey, do you like know someone from this layer two team that you could make an intro to?" Like you could just go to the knowledge graph and find that information for yourself. Um and that worked great. And I started using this knowledge graph to keep track of all of my own information because

before this I had a thousand browser tabs open, like a million bookmarks that I still have never gone back to to this day. I like I would never use my bookmarks. I use Roam Research to take notes and I I tag things with things sometimes, but it just doesn't like really work well for me for that purpose. So I just started using this tool to keep track of my own stuff. And in keeping track of it for me, it by proxy kept track of it for everyone else. It kept track of it for my portfolios and my clients and my friends onboarding to Web3 who didn't even know what wallet to use. And so I thought, "This is very cool, but you know, it's just my knowledge in the knowledge graph. So what if it wasn't that? What if it was everyone's knowledge in the knowledge

graph? And what if people were incentivized to add good data to the knowledge graph? That'd be pretty interesting." Um so I didn't really know how to do that at the time and I just kind of like got obsessed with the idea and started technically architecting it. And what it started to look like was this composition of all of these various decentralized identity and data and finance primitives that have been really maturing and emerging over the past couple of years. And so while like decentralized identity is kind of like a cornerstone of what we're doing and we kind of oftentimes get framed into that category, it's just kind of like a dependency of the system that we want to build. Um so that's a little bit about me and and where Intuition came from.

Interesting. Um just thinking of that knowledge graph, I think one thing that I want to ask is how does um I while I was reading one of your articles I you wrote about this quite a bit. It's credibility No, neutrality in knowledge and adding new knowledge. And so we'll get more into this later, but I kind of like before like when you were thinking about this, what was the first thing that you thought of? Like how you could kind of make this work that way? Yeah, like the the credibly neutral piece is interesting because everything that we interact with on the web is relatively opinionated whether we know it is or not or want it to be or

not. And so like if you're if you're building something as generalistic as we're doing, which is kind of like this low-level protocol that's hopefully going to be leveraged by all applica- applications across the web, you can't really get opinionated. You can't really censor. You can't really say what's true or false or right or wrong. Otherwise, you enter this very slippery slope of censorship. And so the the really We just touched on like the hardest part of building something like this because it's like, "Okay, if anyone can add anything to the knowledge graph, how do you distill the signal from the noise? How do you How do you determine like which data is true and which data is false?" And the answer is you don't.

And this is where people get hung up. And I think that's why maybe this hasn't been built before is the protocol shouldn't. The protocol in Intuition will never say what is true or false or right or wrong. All we do is let people say things about things in a more structured format and maybe provide like more incentives for people to express themselves in different ways, but where the where the distillation of the data needs to happen is higher up the stack. Um it needs to come from like other things built on top that filter the data. And so the most primitive example of something that could kind of be overlaid on top of the data is it's like, "I only want to listen to these 10 people." Like let's say I'm viewing a smart contract and there's been claims made about the smart

contract. I don't care what everyone else in the ecosystem has said. Maybe I only care what the 10 smart contract auditors that I trust have said about the smart contract. Or you know, like on Twitter, anyone can say anything on Twitter about anyone, pretty much. Um but you only listen to the voices that you trust. And so while anyone can say anything, that's the way you filter the data. You don't You don't censor people. You just kind of let people pick and choose whose voices they want to listen to and who or what they want to trust. And you filter the data a little bit higher up the stack that way. And so in that way, like we remain credibly neutral as Intuition. Maybe we develop some rudimentary kind of algorithms to help you filter the data and rudimentary tools and middleware. Um but we don't

want to be the only people distilling the data because then you become the gatekeepers of truth. And and then you are deciding what is true or false or right or wrong. And I don't think that any centralized entity should do that. It should be up to you and the wisdom of the crowds to kind of like come to social consensus around what is true or false using very good tools that are now available to you that make that process easier as opposed to being spoon-fed a single side of what might be a controversial issue. That's super interesting. I guess a question I have to extrapolate on that further is, so for example, you would have like the 10 smart contract auditors you care about attest for a contract

you're looking to interact with. How do you get someone like that to contribute to Intuition? What does that contribution look like? Like is this like a front end on a website? And since we're in crypto, I'm assuming there would be some sort of incentive uh to bring all this data into the protocol. Yeah. So let me let me try to tackle those one at a time. So a reason an an auditor might want to do it is because maybe maybe they want the fact that they've audited a thing to be a little bit more publicly visible.

Maybe it's because of clout. Maybe it's because of I don't know, general discoverability. Maybe this is a good platform for publishing information once it exists. Maybe the the project has requested that they do publish it to intuition. And the reason you might want to publish it to intuition is because it's this neutral data layer that any app can tap into. Um and so like at the point of interaction with a smart contract in MetaMask or Rabby or something you can have the fact that the thing is audited right there at the point of interaction. You don't have to like go to the website and then click on the link to go to the GitHub to go to the PDF and then download the PDF and look at the audit report to know that it's audited. You can have like a verifiable claim coming from the auditor saying,

"Yes, we audited this." So, like that's maybe and maybe it's because they want to help secure the ecosystem. There's there's many reasons people might want to do it, but that's kind of a couple of them. And then the way that they would do that, couple different ways. So, again, we're kind of like we're building at all layers of the stack. The main meat of this is the protocol, but uh I guess it's the protocol and the middleware. But we're also building at the application layer to to make the UX easy and to exemplify what you can build on top of the middleware and the protocol now that it exists. And so like the auditor could come to like our intuition systems portal and just like manually enter the information there. Or they could just like integrate with it

in like whatever system they have and maybe they like I don't know how they publish audit reports right now, but maybe at the time of publication it also just like publishes an attestation to the intuition knowledge graph and it's kind of more programmatic than than manual entry. So, you kind of have both options. Um on the on the incentive piece, it's like there's I think when people hear the word incentives, their minds often go straight to economics, but I think that's only like a piece of the puzzle. And and economic incentives are very important and and we have those baked into our system as well and I'm happy to touch on on those later, but it's like there there's many different pillars of There's like levers you can pull to get people to do different things. And we've kind of boxed them into four categories

and at least I have in my mind and it's like you've got reputational, you've got educational, you've got like functional {slash} utility, and then you have economic. And so for any one of those four reasons, like each individually in their own silo if like they are explained will probably make a little bit of sense and then there'll be gaps and you're like, "Oh, what if this?" But when you view all four of those in their entirely entirety holistically, then the then it starts to be a really compelling picture of like why someone might want to do a thing. Um Matt, anything that you want to add on that front?

Yeah, it's the incentive part that I think deserves a little bit of zooming in. Like the question is why will some actor who operates in the status quo do something outside of the status quo? Like why would an auditor decide to publish on intuition? And I think what we first have to do is more closely examine like the current paradigm around data in that data is property of a handful of large tech companies.

Um it's not accessible. Um you create it for them for free. Uh and all of the economic value that flows through that data or that belongs to that data is uh captured by the intermediary. Um so if you think about this in terms of like economics, like this is not a free and open like economic or capitalistic system. It's like a very tightly controlled, centrally controlled, most likely very poor uh allocation of resources. It's almost like each each large tech company is kind of like a command economy in its own right, which is how it can get to the size that it got to as fast as possible. But that's also why we have all these really weird unintended

consequences where essentially our experience of the physical world and our interaction in the digital world have like diverged so drastically due to poor quality data um among other things um that the digital experience is like starting to like pull the the physical experience in in these all sorts of crazy directions that we're viewing all the time, right? Um so what we have to do is we have to reimagine for sort of like and I and I hate to use this word because it's like such a big word, but it's like you're almost having this this digital economic revolution. And we know that because we're in crypto and we know how powerful these like crypto uh economic tokens are as coordination tools for human behavior. And it's like,

"Well, okay, what happens if we can find a better flow of value as it relates to data? What if value can get to the endpoints, to the curators, to the creators, to the owners? What does that look like?" And like that's what gets me really really excited because like why should somebody do something against the status quo? Why should they publish on intuition? Because like there's there's there's a clear future. And like at in one way or one protocol uh like we will get there inevitably. So, I just think that like as far as I'm concerned, like intuition is is probably one of the the further out there, more in the lead groups to do so uh even though they've

been sort of under wraps as long as they have been. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, especially when you see like X and how they're moving towards like monetization of accounts based on your impressions, et cetera. It's like you port that to a decentralized system in crypto built on intuition or something similar, and then you see what the result is and what sort of economies of scale that can result from having so much data right there. That's quality. Absolutely. You're seeing confirmation of the thesis everywhere. There was that Twitch YouTube spat about how much money gets to the creators. Uh there's Open AI using that like open methodology and Microsoft had to pen that letter saying if we don't use some form of like uh open development, like we're just going

to fall behind. Like there is clearly a trend towards you need to be open source to iterate more quickly and you need to direct more economic value away from the the central company and towards those people doing the actual work. So like while we might be the the extreme interpretation of that today, like in my opinion, that's probably the standard a decade from now. I don't know if any of you heard um the the most recent interview uh with one of the Telegram founders. I think it was on um Tucker Carlson, but they keep a they keep a small team, a small core team, no HR department, and four times a year they do a like open source come build on us and we give you prizes if you're great. And like they have 900 million active users. So like in my opinion,

it's very clear what the future holds and it's very clear that like there will be certain types of disruptions to the current paradigm. So I think like there will be sort of intangible forces um that are probably too many to enumerate that are like, "Oh yeah, like this needs to be published on intuition." Like because like that's just like how things are working now. Yeah, agreed. I think like it also clicked for a lot more people when Reddit had the um they had a similar issue where they were selling their data and then they weren't paying users obviously. And I think like that's when it clicked for I say like I don't want to say normies, but for normies, I think that was the moment where it was like, "This is not not great."

Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's always been the case in the history of the web where we are kind of willingly and unwittingly digital slaves to these platforms where we we we we are working for free to create data for them to then monetize. And so like we really need to There there should be value extracted by the intermediaries. Like you you can't completely disintermediate cuz then you don't have the platforms to do the interacting. So, there is definite value in the platform, but they're just extracting disproportions disproportionate amounts of value from the system right now. It's just like in crypto where at the beginning of crypto or at the at the beginning of Ethereum,

it was always like, "Okay, well, if everything's open source, how are any of these companies going to make any money? Or how are they going to be valuable?" Cuz the money's just going to flow directly to the user. And what ended up happening is like there's value in the user experience. There's value in like the the services provided. Like there's there's so much in the middle that is valuable. It's just that the value flows are incorrect right now. And and it's just like entirely disproportionate in the favor of the intermediary. And so just like everything else happening across crypto, we have to do that for data. And so that's that's what we're trying to do is like extrapolate that concept out to the concept of data, which is our most valuable resource.

Like it is it is the oil of the internet. And so like I think it's kind of it it's kind of crazy that there's not more people thinking about this yet even though to your point, like it's becoming more and more prevalent even for everyday people as like these things hit the headlines and people become aware of the fact that like their data is the thing that fuels these platforms even though they are the ones creating the data in the first place. Wormhole is the leading interoperability platform for multi-chain bridges and applications. With over 1 billion messages sent and 40 billion in value transferred, Wormhole leads the industry in cross-chain message volume and total value transferred. If you're a builder, Wormhole has an extensive suite of tools and infrastructure to securely build

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and Avalanche Warp Messaging provide a new foundation for how Avalanche blockchains can communicate and how developers can easily build cross-chain applications out of the box. Build anything you want, any way you want, on the eco-friendly blockchain designed for web 3 dApps. Check it out by clicking the link below. Taking a step back, uh Billy, you kind of talked about the three layers of the protocol or like I guess it's the application layer, the middleware, and the protocol. Could you kind of dive into those a little bit deeper? Yeah, absolutely. So, so at the protocol layer, um what you basically have is is something it's a it's a knowledge graph. And it's you can think of the architecture akin to something like a neural network where

you just you just have nodes and edges. That's all you have. Um each node and each edge has an identity, and each of those identities has properties. So, it's kind of like knowledge property graph. Um and so, at the protocol layer, what we try to do is we try to incentivize the expression of data into that knowledge graph um in a very neutral and unopinionated way. And so, at the protocol layer, it's just this system of tools that like resolves to some state that you can interpret in different ways and use for different purposes. So, that's kind of like the lowest level is just like this kind of hopefully as open source as possible thing. Like obviously contracts

will be open source, and there's things that like technologically are not feasible to open source right now when you're dealing with like very large data sets, but we need to make them as decentralized as possible. So, that's what I think of as like the protocol layer is um this knowledge graph. And And the way that that just a little bit going a little bit deeper there, you can think of it like a composition of all of these verifiable data registries. And so, it's not like we're creating the Intuition database that all the data's stored on. It's like we're the semantic mapping on top of all of these databases. It doesn't matter which database you want to use. Like we we prefer that it's a verifiable data registry like IPFS or Arweave or Ceramic or any blockchain is a verifiable data

registry. So, you kind of have like all these databases down here, and then we're this like semantic mapping on top that allows you to discover the data. So, that's that's kind of the protocol layer. Now, the middleware layer is how you interpret that data and how you work with the data. So, as a developer and as an end user, you probably don't want to deal with the raw knowledge graph, which hopefully at some point has like billions of entries, trillions, I don't know. Like the the goal is to consume the world's data. So, uh you don't want to look at the raw data. Like if I go to Matt's profile and he has 35 billion data points, like I I really don't want to just like look at that. I want that distilled in some way.

And so, we need to build tools for developers to build user experiences on top of the data where they don't have to build the tools themselves to work with the data. So, it's really the middleware I'd say is is really about make creating like a very good developer experience. Um at the application layer, that's where I mean, we hope that developers will contribute to all layers of the stack, but that's really where we see the developers shining where we don't want to be the ones building things largely at the application layer. The goal is to have Intuition integrated everywhere and have people building stuff on top. Um and so, our approach to the application layer is it's what I saw at the beginning of like

Ethereum and uPort days. It's like if you just build the protocol and the middleware, people don't really know know what to do with those tools until you show them what they can do. And so, our approach there is let's just build some example apps on top that show developers like, "Hey, this is what you might want to do with this tool now that it exists." And we kind of we like we're we're we have a lot of product-minded people, and so I think we're we're hopefully building some really compelling user experiences at the application layer. But over time, our hope is to trend away from being like this B2C model and become like more more of a B2B model where we're just like serving the tools to developers to build amazing user experiences on top.

Um Matt, again, anything to to add on that front? Uh always generally something to add. Um It It's that middleware layer that And again, I think I'm going to just probably continually take us from like these really grounded conversations and like into where the world is headed because I think that's probably like the most important conversation to have, at least in my opinion. So, data has long been known as like the oil of of the internet. And like I I don't disagree with with that at all. But like that's a crude that's a crude form of a commodity, right? Like for oil to go to market, like it needs to be refined. Um it needs to be turned into like consumable product. And with the advent of AI and with AI being now

the largest consumer of data, like the way we need to think about data needs to completely change, especially because we've gotten to a point now where AI has consumed so much data that it's running out of data. And like there's been some really interesting talks given about uh AI models creating artificial data sets to train itself on because it just needs more data, which is like a whole crazy rabbit hole. Um So, like in in in AI, there's a term like called inference, and it's sort of like the statistical like mapping or like the the statistics of how the the data relates to each other. And like these inferences are like way more valuable because you can do things with them. So, like if you sort of think about like this middle middleware layer of Intuition, like data is is potentially becoming worthless if not made like consumable. So, by sort of

thinking through the ways in which I like app developers would would want to or should be able to um sort, query, filter this data, like what you start doing is you create this entire new paradigm for for app development. And like one of one of my personal measurements for success is that like the a developer 10 years from now who sits down to write an application, like one of the first things they do is like install Intuition. Because like why compete with large tech monoliths where like step one is hoard data and compete with your walled garden. Actually, step one should be like opt into this public data lake, which has this middleware, which like makes this data extremely accessible.

And now no longer are we competing about like how much data can you extract from users? We're competing like how many problems can you solve? Like what can your application do that users find valuable? Not like how locked in can you get and then how many like small companies can you acquire? Like It's inherent like the current system of app development iteration like is inherently like eating itself from the inside out. Like any form of innovation gets immediately acquired, baked in, and just like squeezed down to to to the the the current paradigm once again. So, like the only way to escape, I think, that like gravitational black hole is like to sort of side step it and start opting in into some new systems. And like I'll even give a really good example of that because I think dogfooding is like

probably one of the most important things any any organization working on applications should be doing. So, one of the ideas we had is that like like I just said, like a decade from now, developers will want to as step one just like import and and work natively on top of Intuition's you know, application layer and middleware layer. Um and we we were similarly building some applications like around let's say like trying to solve some of the fracturing of data and the fracturing of identity so that like all instead of having like eight profiles, like you kind of have this one like, you know, mosaic of a person. Um and in doing so, we we immediately bump into all of these data permissioning issues

where like I can't go get data from Facebook. I can't go get data from Google. I can't go get data from Twitter for like under $3 million a year or whatever it is. So, it's like, "Oh, okay, these guys don't want to play." Just like Microsoft and its AI didn't want to play with OpenAI, but OpenAI just kept doing its thing, and and Microsoft had to pivot. So, instead, we're playing really nicely with all of the like third-party sort of, you know, applications and platforms that have identity as part of them that give us access to their to their data and to their social data. And we're like, "Oh, sweet. Like you're already opting into that open paradigm." Our thesis is that developers will continue to opt in. And like, "Wow, holy holy like we are all forced to opt in ourselves." Like no better proof that this works than like

us being in that exact same position and making that exact same decision. So, I don't know where that rant really started, but like I like where it went. Yeah, going off of that, so this might be a difficult question, but I I'd like to see both a crypto a crypto native example and a non-crypto native example of a data point about Billy, for instance. The middleware between it and then what application can you build with that data point on intuition?

Yeah, super super easy. So, like okay, let's say I am transacting in web 3. Let's say I don't know. It's actually wild to me that we still use Venmo and other things to like send money when we're all crypto natives, so let's just say we solve that. It's like, okay, I want to send some money to Billy. Um like how do I know that this is actually me? Um or how do you know that it's actually me? It like you go to create your transaction in MetaMask and what you see is a bunch of non-human readable jargon that really tells you nothing and then you have to like look at the letters.

You're like, all right, I think that like I copy pasted this right and like the beginning letters are the are the same, the end letters are the same. So, okay, like we're good to go. Like that is wild. That is not that can't be the user experience. And so what we need to do is we need intuition in all of our interactions. We need to see what our intuition is saying about the thing that we're interacting with. So, when you go to perform the transaction MetaMask, what if there was a tab that said, here's what your intuition is saying about the thing that you're interacting with. And then you're like, oh, like this thing has all these social connections. I'm actually following them on Twitter. Like this is probably like based on the the reputation and the profile of this thing, this is probably the thing that I'm trying to interact

with. And so like the the hope again is like this should be integrated everywhere. Obviously, we will have like user interfaces that we built ourselves that we hope that you come and use, but like the point is go to the point of interaction that already exists. Go to go to the places where people are already doing stuff and just like insert your intuition there, which is really just like decision-making technology. Just like providing better to data to people to inform their decisions a little bit more. So, hopefully that covers like the web 3 case. I think the web 2 is like an example I like to give in web 2 world is Amazon reviews. So, I think like reviews, I don't want to box what we're doing into being a review thing, but it's so ripe for disruption that I have

to talk about it. It's like, okay, I go to Amazon. Like the the review game has just been gamified to hell to the point where like I don't even know what to trust anymore. It's like who who is leaving reviews? I've never written an Amazon review. I've never written a Yelp review. I've never done a LinkedIn endorsement. I do five stars on Uber every time cuz I don't care. And if you look at the data, 97% of people are not contributing data to these platforms. And then conversely, all of us use that data every single day to make decisions in our everyday lives. And so like the the problem's not that the data doesn't exist. The problem's that the data exists in our heads. Cuz if you come to me and you ask me about a person I've met or a product I've bought on Amazon

or a restaurant I've been to, I can tell you about it, but we have to have a conversation. And so like our whole point is to like get that data out there and serve it to the user at the point of interaction. So, in the Yelp example or like the the Amazon example, let's say I'm on Amazon, I'm viewing a product. Um instead of seeing a thousand reviews from anonymous accounts who I have no idea who they are, in this new paradigm of portable data and portable reputation and portable identity and social graphs, what if you could you know, I don't have an Amazon friends list. I can't like import my Twitter following to Amazon to see if people I follow on Twitter are saying things about things in Amazon. I want to go to the Amazon or let's say I'm looking for supplements and I have I

trust Dr. Huberman in the context of supplements. So, we have these things called trust circles. You can like curate who you trust in different contexts. So, I'm on Amazon and I'm in the category of supplements. My trust graph has like Dr. Huberman in it and I see, oh, Dr. Huberman has recommended this supplement. That means more to me than 10,000 anonymous reviews from people I don't know or bots. Like it means nothing. Like even like I don't know, people I don't really know that well. If I meet them in real life and they recommend a restaurant to me, that means more to me than all the reviews on Yelp. Like sure, I'll I'll check Yelp a little bit, but I'll probably trust their opinion just because I know they're a real person with real opinions. And so I think like that's that's the world that we're trying to

build towards. My daily I actually want to like deconstruct like something that Billy touched on, but I think he touched on it like through example. And that is like in and this is kind of why I love the name intuition. It's like really like we tried to define it and then we're like, wait, it kind of defines itself. Um we all have friends, or at least I hope we all have friends. And like we put in investment in our friends in the form of time, uh in the form of energy, in the form of emotion, in the form of support. And like that forms bonds. And these bonds have like a certain scaling limit.

Um and there's all sorts of ways in which we can discover the bonds of others in that like somebody might host a dinner party or a birthday party and you start to meet the other people that they have close bonds with. Um and you're in these trusted spaces and you're able to, you know, really sort of build a life essentially. Like you have all these really positive uh externalities and positive outcomes if you're surrounded by good people and they're surrounded by good people and like there there's this whole thing that nature just evolved for us. And then we built social media and it was like, oh, like follow whatever gives you the like hardest dopamine and serotonin hit immediately. And we like very unmindfully just started following and

unfollowing like all over the place. And like every for the most part every type of connection is the same. And until maybe like three years ago, you couldn't even like like now Twitter has like subscribe, right? Uh and then like Instagram added like close circles to friends. Like they're starting to figure out that like there's more to just following and unfollowing, but nobody and I say I mean nobody has figured out how to properly model the very natural connections that we have in the real world online. Um and this goes back to like why I said like that incentive or economic piece is so important because like if if you take a step back and you think about like

what we hold true about like free and open markets and like the ability for cap to to to express an opinion um with with with a monetary, you know, device. Um and that leading to some form of like optimal outcome. Well, like if we start to think about social graphs and knowledge graphs um in the way that we think about the way that we connect with one another. And instead of putting in like time and energy, we use these like monetary devices to like show where connections are strongest. Uh and like in intuition, right? We have things called claim. We have like identities. We have claims.

You can stake on all these different things. Like and it doesn't need to be a person that does it. Like you can you can build bots to do this as well. Um but like you get you could for the first time ever really for the first time ever you get to sort of model out like real world natural bonds online, right? Like and we call this intuition graph, right? And that is the intersection of like an economically driven social graph and an economically driven knowledge graph. And like these two things combine for what we call like the intuition graph. And um like that that's what's so exciting to me and like I'm sort of really disinterested in like what we what like our core primitive features will do to web 2 or web 3. I'm

much more interested in like what the next generation of developers are going to do when they have social bond data. Like what does interacting online what does community formation look like like at that time in the future? And and honestly, if you guys have I'll throw a question back to you guys. Like what do you guys think community formation looks like in a paradigm like that? Yeah, I think like circles of friends would just be like completely different because like in inherent knowledge of like what someone said about someone else or what someone did to someone else um would just be integrated into intuition. So, it's like you know, your your association

would go a lot less superficial um across your circles. One thing semi-related to this is that like when I first joined crypto, which is not as long as you guys, I had kind of a difficult time. I think because when you first join, you kind of have like you go on the timeline and there's just so many people just talking and you don't know who you can trust. And I feel like that's one of the big issues and you have to wait like you know how like the market has some form of intuition. You have to kind of pay your tuition. You have to follow the horrible actors and then eventually someone's like, oh, like XYZ actually once did this, so you shouldn't like take advice from her or you shouldn't

listen to her. You dumped this. He like shilled this at the top or whatever. So, I definitely see that like if there is and according to you guys, there is a way of fixing this trust issue where I don't have to fight for my life to figure out who I can trust and who I can't trust. Um that's like very attractive and I think it could like even at the like the niche case of like onboarding people onto a new segment, a new industry, a new sector, like there I can see like how that could be extremely useful.

100% and I will I'll I'll provide an example there and that's that I I talk about this all the time, but it's like like a new entrant to web 3 is entirely lost. Like how do they know what to do? And they the answer is they don't and then they get trapped in something like Cardano hell and then they never escape and then they think crypto's a scam, and they don't come back for 10 years. And so, like that that can't be the user experience that people have when they come into the ecosystem. And so, I think like what would be very cool is to your point, before you've curated your Right now, you have personal social graphs.

It's only you. Like you can't toggle to someone else's social graph. But what if I come into crypto, and I just know one data point? The only data point that I know is like I trust this Vitalik guy. He seems like I don't want to spend 24/7 trying to figure out the 3,000 people I need to follow. I just like, "Okay, I've been monitoring Vitalik for a little bit. Like seems trustworthy." What if I could equip his lens through which to see the world? And then like I just like automatically see my Twitter feed through his eyes. And all the people that he follow. Like that would be really nice. And then you wouldn't like fall into these pitfalls. And so, if we if we take the social graph, and instead of making it like agent-centric, and we abstracted away from the

platform, and we abstracted it away from the user, and they become objects in and of themselves that you can just like over like you can equip and you can overlay any data with. Now it's like, "Okay, now I'm in Amazon. I don't even have to curate my own supplement trust graph anymore." Like I'm not going to Maybe there's like just like coin If you go to Uniswap, there's like all the coin the official coin list. You got like CoinGecko list and CoinMarketCap list. And there's like a couple different like lists of reputable coins that you can choose from to like filter the the coins that are automatically populated. Same thing here. It's like, "Oh, here's like a couple good trust graphs to choose from if you're viewing supplements. Like here, pick this one." And so, you don't really have to go through this like cumbersome You can if you want. You can

create your own trust graph. You can customize the existing ones. But I I just think that that to your point, it like it's not just useful for crypto. It's very useful for crypto because in crypto the stakes are high. Cuz if you interact with the wrong thing, you lose all your money. So, that's not great. Um and so, like in other ecosystems, less scary. So, we should probably start with Web3 first where this is a One, it's it's native to us. Like this is where we have the most knowledge. We have the network. We have the connections. And the pain point is huge. So, we're starting with Web3. But this can be extrapolated out to literally anything. It's like, "Oh, I I find a new interest. Like now I'm interested in pickleball." And it's like, "Okay, I need to like buy some pickleball

equipment. I need to know where to play pickleball." Like, "Okay, how do I do this? I need to equip like pickleball trust graph that has been curated by somebody somewhere to overlay that data with. Yeah, I agree. I That makes like that's that makes sense. Um one thing that I feel like we've kind of brushed up on, but we've never actually delved deep into and I feel like everybody's going to want to know is the incentive mechanisms. And like those four categories, kind of like talking a bit more about those and how exactly they interact to protocol.

Yeah. So, I'll I'll touch on the economic piece last um cuz that's that's the most important and the most detailed. But the other ones are kind of like brain to grok. So, I'll step sequentially through those in no particular order. So, on the the reputational front, um and I'll I'll keep using Amazon as an example to root things uh in some something that has a Web2 parallel. So, I don't leave reviews on Amazon. One of the reasons is I don't care about my Amazon reputation. Like it doesn't get me anything. I can buy whatever I want on Amazon without being like a good reviewer of products. So, I don't care about my Amazon reputation. Um

But what if reputation was cross-context and cross-platform? What if I could use the fact that I'm a good reviewer on Amazon, and like get an undercollateralized loan in DeFi, or like do something somewhere else? Like that might be interesting to me. Like now I might like go around all these different contexts and be a good actor in these different systems because my reputation within those systems means something outside of the context of those systems. So, now I might leave reviews cuz like I'm building up my reputation. There's there's inherent economic There's like just inherent I don't even want to say economic value, but just like value in this reputation.

Cuz if I if I ruin my reputation, I've Let's say I spent 10 years building up this fact that I'm a good reviewer on Amazon. I'm not going to destroy that for like a $1,000 undercollateralized loan. Like my time is worth so much more than that. And so, there's there's so much that you can do with portable reputation. And it might get you to do things because you care about your reputation more now. Second is educational. So, another reason I don't leave reviews on Amazon is cuz it's just going to get lost in the sea of Amazon I don't have a Amazon friends list. My friends will never see the fact that I've left this review. And those are the people that I care about the information getting to. Like I'll go in the group chat and be like, "Yo, you should definitely like buy this thing.

Like this product sick." Or have a conversation with someone be like, "Yo, you should totally go to this restaurant." Like I don't leave the review on Yelp, but I will tell people like, "Oh, this is a great restaurant in Puerto Rico. Go there." Um and so, it's because it get it's get get gets lost cuz we're not filtering the data correctly. We don't have these trust graphs. So, again, it's like, "Okay, if I could overlay the stuff with my trust graph or my social graph." It's like, "Oh, like okay, I see that Billy has recommended this restaurant." Great. Maybe maybe I will be more inclined to disseminate the information at the point of interaction versus in these other platforms. Like the information is getting disseminated. It's just getting disseminated in the wrong spots and via the wrong mediums. So, that's kind of like the educational piece.

The functional piece is maybe I just want to make a claim about something because uh it's useful to me. So, going back to my angel investing advisory example, it's like I was tagging things with things and making claims about things because it helped me organize my own life. And by proxy, it organized it for everyone else. But it was just like a useful tool to me. So, I think the ultimate I think this is one of the most This is the pillar that even if we just get this one right, that solves everything else. But it's like we have to solve real pain points for end users. We have to give them the ability to do something they couldn't do before. And if we provide them the best user experience in doing that thing, they're going to do it regardless of the you know, the the couple dollars they

make from it or from the reputation. It's just like, "I'm just going to do this because it's useful to me for some way." So, that's the functional. The economic is where like the the crypto innovation comes in. And this is what kind of like what sparked the idea of intuition. But basically, in intuition, when because now we have verifiable attribution of who created the data, you can do very interesting things with economic flows. So, now that we know who created the data, we can flow any revenue that the data creates back to the data creator. Um and so, what happens in intuition, uh Matt mentioned we have like identities and claims. I won't go into like the the technical nuances of what each of those things are. I'll just keep it high-level so that Matt doesn't yell

at me. But like basically, when when you create data, you get ownership in that data. And then anytime anyone interacts with that data, if they're paying money to do that interaction, the the money flows back to you. And so, why this is so important is because let's take the paradigm right now of of Google and Facebook and Twitter monetizing all this data. They're able to do it because they have the workforce to aggregate, cleanse, and sell the data as like a big package. But me as like an end user, my my data's probably like not worth that much. It's maybe I don't know, a couple dollars. And so, I I can't go through the effort of like selling it to people. You kind of have

to create this like programmatic marketplace where I'm just automatically rewarded for having the created the data in the first place. And so, in this new model, it's like any piece of data I create, whenever that piece of data is interacted with in some way, like I'm getting rewarded for doing it. And it's not gamifiable cuz it's zero sum. Cuz someone's paying on the other side. Um and the reason why it like in the system, the the the way that you combat Sybil attacks or DDoS attacks or just people flooding the network with bad data is there's some small inherent fee to creating the data in the first place. So, just taking all of the learnings from blockchain, think of it just like a gas cost. Like to create data, there's some inherent cost to storing the data. It's not free.

So, if we made it free, then someone's paying it, and then it's us, and then we have to be these intermediaries that extract value from people that pay the data storage cost. So, the user pays small fee. Maybe it's a fraction of penny. Whatever. It's just like not something. But there is some cost, like a gas fee, that you pay to create the data. And the money that you pay to create the data purchases you ownership in the data. Um and so, then like because now we have private keys that we can sign things with through the proliferation of PKI as introduced through crypto, it's like, "Okay, we all have private keys that we can sign stuff with." Lots of people are signing transactions on blockchains right now with those keys. But you can sign anything with those private keys.

So, we can sign data with those private keys. And when we sign data with the private keys, then we know who created the data in the first place. Um and so, that was a very long-winded rant. I hope that made sense. I'll pass it over to to Matt now. To reel me reel us back in. Yeah I I'm known for reeling us back in. Um so, again where the current paradigm has failed like objectively is that users are essentially bucketed into one of two categories, right? You're either a content creator or you're a content consumer. Or I guess you can be both, but like those those are the two large categories. And the measurement of success, right? Is like virality or interaction. Like it would

be like as if we tried to like if I wanted to solve world hunger, and then like all I did was measure like how many calories I shipped to another country. Like and then they just took that food and threw it in the ocean. Like, that's the current process of like trying to create good content. It's like we're solving world hunger, but we're not measuring hunger. Um and the the other issue is that like it's not just a world of content creators and content consumers. You have content aggregators, you have content uh curators, you now have like the entire advent of AI, right? So, now you have task-oriented agents. They are completely disinterested in like human emotion like a a as agents, right? So, like they're not going to interact or

respond because something makes them anxious or something, you know, makes them feel disgust or happiness, right? Like they're they're not uh attuned to those types of triggers that would, you know, cause {quote} {unquote} like interaction. Um And then you have like algorithm designers, right? So, like if you actually start thinking about like what incentive design needs to look like, and it might sound like I'm really focused on social media. I'm not. I'm really focused on on the interactions of parties online, right? I'm much so inter- uh interested in like so the interact- the intersection of social graphs and knowledge graphs, but that just so happens to be what social media really is, right? It's like a a pretty front end on on on the intersection of a social graph and a knowledge graph. And we're thinking about incentives in terms

of like what are these different types of identity categories, right? Like, we have a whole section for AI, we have a whole section for human, we have a whole section for other like objects, right? And like each of these things need to have some different way of interacting and some different way of being an economic participant um to create, again, like this highly consumable uh highly efficient form of data, right? Like, going back to this oil, oil gets turned into natural gas, natural gas can get burned for energy, and like each form of refinement has some type of different like energy output and some different type of carbon footprint. And similarly, like every distillation or refinement of raw data like has some different uh potential for application,

uh can have some different form of impact, can be more expensive or less expensive uh to access or use. Um and then of course there'll be people who probably want to forego the economic incentive uh outright perhaps cuz they're trying to grow following more quickly or or something of that nature. Um So, like I I really can't like bold and underline enough how important it is to recognize like how failed the current status quo is when it comes to social interaction, uh identity fragmentation, and like data discoverability. Like, my biggest my biggest thing that and I just started doing this like literally a week ago.

We all point to Google and Google search all the time. And like we even had a brainstorming meeting on some naming, and like something came up like search engine, and someone was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, like we don't want to compete with like being a search engine. Like, that's like going into Google like how are you going to compete with being with Google?" And then I paused, and I was like, "Wait, can we all agree that discoverability in Google search over the past 3 to 5 6 years has gotten significantly worse, right? Can we all like does everybody feel like it's much more difficult to get your questions answered and to get the resources you want on Google than it used to be? So, like why are we scared to say that we're competing with discoverability and search when actually search and discoverability are degrading because

the basic incentive systems behind them have like played out to their logical conclusions, and their logical conclusions were like bad data, bad outcomes, right? Whatever you measure for is what you get, and they measured for the wrong thing. So, I think like there's a massive multi-trillion-dollar opportunity for like a protocol that is focused on like good data and data sovereignty to like really step in. And like I hope to look back on this conversation like 10 years from now and be like, "Wow, I can't I can't believe we nailed it." But I mean the odds of that are so low. But um like that that's where I really think like at least for me the focus of the conversation like really is today.

Yeah, and I'd love to I'd I'd love to piggyback on that on the economic incentive piece cuz I think about it in terms of like things that we are doing as intuition. And I I box things into that category, but like zooming out like Matt did, so the to elaborate on his point, basically the games that we're playing online, and I use the term game extremely loosely, but like our online experiences are they they have been crafted in a way in which they are not extracting like the best data and the best versions of ourselves from us and our best intuition. Like, they have very perverse

incentives, and what they're optimizing for, to Matt's point, is not like the production of good useful data for society. They're optimizing for anxiety, like more clicks. It's like whatever whatever gets the clicks, whatever keeps people dopamine receptors firing, like but not too much cuz if it's too much, then they won't come back. So, it's just like you always get this feeling. You go on your phone, you're on TikTok, and you feel like kind of satiated, and then you get off, and you just like feel like You're like, "Oh, what like what is going on here? Like, why do I why do I feel worse when I was supposed to be doing something that like was supposed to make me feel better? Like, what am I doing here?" And people have just been trapped in this mindset because these very powerful companies are using these very powerful

tools to create these games that everyone's playing, and they don't even know they're trapped, which is so sad. And we have to like we kind of have to zoom out, and we have to wake up, and we have to be like, "Hey, this system's kind of broken. It's kind of ruining ruining people's lives across the board." Like, look at everyone's screen time on their phones. Like, how much of that screen time is is creating like real-world productive value? And I'd I'd probably argue not very much of it. And so, that's what we have to think about is this system that is fundamentally broken because the incentives are perverse because people are optimizing for the wrong things. And so, what we have to optimize for, in order to build a good system, what you have to do is you have to align the the

the objectives of the system with the objectives of the people. And if you can build a system where people are acting in their own best self-interest, and by proxy are acting in the best interest of the system, then you've built a good system. So, taking Bitcoin for instance, that's the so beautiful that's why I got obsessed with Bitcoin so early cuz I thought this concept was so beautiful. It's like if you just act individualistically and greedily, and you act in your own best self-interest, that is what's in the best interest of Bitcoin the system.

Like, if you if you if you come to consensus and you mine like the longest chain, if you converge, if you converge on social consensus, then you make money. If you diverge, and you act wrongly because like there's no economic incentive to diverge, so why would you do it? And that's what is worse for the system. So, Bitcoin very beautifully aligned the incentives of the of the network participants and the system itself. And there's just this mismatch right now where like the companies have one thing, people's incentives or like people's reason for interacting with them are something totally different. And so, we have to have drastic change soon because the world's starting to look like kind

of weird. Like, weird it's just like it's getting like weirder every day. And so, I really think we got to wake up and like have some sense of urgency about this before we're in like some weird backwards land where nothing makes sense anymore. Yeah. Um Talking about perverse incentives, I think this is like the most obvious when you go on those um popular tweets, and under them it's just like maybe a dozen like maybe 20 25 of these like videos of it's either cute dogs, etc., which are like going to garner views, or it's like some horrific like crime video or something. And because I think like that whole when the Elon bucks came online, that like really

really kind of exasperated the whole incent- I think a bit more than what it was like. Because before it was a bit sneaky, it was like it wasn't as obvious, but now it's like my for you page is just absolutely horrendous all the time. Um I think one of the questions that I've had from the very beginning is the cuz Matt kept touching up on refining oil. How do you the middleware the middleware layer refines the data, from what I understand. Could you um how does the are the incentive systems the same there, or are you going to be building your own solution as well? I know you talked a bit about like dev dev

tools, and etc., but how are you guys planning on making that as easy as possible so that you get refined data out? Yeah, that's a that's a really good question. And so, like programmatic rewards at the middleware layer are are a little bit harder to deal with, um and we haven't kind of like really broached that topic yet, but there's like indirect non-intuition rewards at the middleware layer that people are competing for. So, if you think of Ethereum, it's like, "Okay, you could look at raw block data." No one does that. And so, you've got like lots of players that make money from playing in the middle. You've got Infura and Alchemy and Etherscan and Dune and Nansen, and like literally most

companies in blockchain are doing this in some way. And it's like the economic incentives are inherently there if the data's good. And I would love to find some way to kind of programmatically reward the development of that stuff at the protocol layer, but I don't think we need those incentives at the onset cuz they're just like intrinsic to the system. Um and what the what the middleware looks like, it's just I mean, what what we're building is just a set of extensible APIs and SDKs that just let you build on top of this stuff very easily. So, it's like, "Okay, you've got this composition of all these verifiable data registries. You've got data coming in from all these different places.

You've got it being stored in different formats. Um some things need to happen off chain, some things need to happen on chain. They're just like the flow is relatively complex. And so the middleware that we're building kind of reduces that complexity down to like single API call. So it's like create identity for a thing. You don't have to worry about like all the other crazy things that are happening when you're creating an identity. You just like call create identity. And it's nice. And our goal is to kind of like make that as extensible and permissionless as possible. So it's not just like us building those things.

It's it's everyone building them. And then also like on the I guess this is a little bit This is probably a little bit too technical, but just like on the on the indexing front. So it's like, okay, data moving to lots of different places. Um The our like indexer infrastructure relatively centralized right now, but the hope is like just like in the way that people are approaching decentralization right now across the board. It's like you can replicate the state if you want to. So we'll open source our indexers. And like if you want to like replicate the state and verify that everything is like the way that we say it is, you can you can very easily do that. Um but in this

in in in the system we're trying to build, it's very hard to build like a you know a decentralized version of a vector database or a decentralized version of a graph database. And so we kind of have There's like centralization points at the middleware layer, but the hope is like our middleware also makes it very easy for developers to replicate the state that we're working with in our like databases that are kind of like a little bit more centralized cuz we don't really know how to make that layer of the stack decentralized yet. Cool. Yeah, that makes sense. And it it aligns like with the rest of crypto and like the the entire experience of distributed systems.

Um Looking forward So fast forward like 5 years, what what sort of scale do you hope Intuition achieves? You know, like what are some some practical applications you expect to see five or you hope to see five years from now? And um like where does that position Intuition as a protocol? Matt, I'll let you take that one. Oh man, that's a dangerous one for me to answer. Um So what we haven't touched on is network effects.

Um specifically like Billy earlier outlined that like kind of in the beginning it's B2C and then it's like more B2B, but like it's it's I think more accurately portrayed as B2B2C. Um which was like actually like a core flow um back back when like Apple was innovating. Um And each additional application that builds on top of Intuition becomes another node to feed data to like the the open permissionless knowledge graph and social graph, like the Intuition graph.

Uh and also becomes a node to like disseminate that information. Um so if we succeed in bootstrapping an ecosystem over the next 5 years, like I think a very positive outcome would be like 1 billion users interacting with Intuition, not directly, right? Like there's going to be a an ecosystem of applications on top. And I would I would hope that that aggregate is is at least 1 billion users. Um Looking at how we continue to get steeper and steeper on adoption curves because of these network effects. Like if you look at how quickly like Instagram acquired

users versus TikTok versus OpenAI, like these network effects are getting like nastier. And I mean that in a in a positive sense, like they're getting more violent. Um And I think we're taking like one of the most hands-off approaches, meaning that like scale can go like we're not we're not the limiting factor, right? Like it's it's not about our ability to like get products over It's just about our ability to build an ecosystem like over the next, you know, 3 to 4 years until it has some form of like organic traction um that that gives it that hockey stick inflection.

I would also really like to see uh Intuition supported as like a a widely supported um single form of like login. Like in at least like call it 1/3 of new applications where like I don't have like I can kind of roll up a bunch of my identities into under Intuition and then like use that Intuition key, like that master key, to like do things. Um and like I'd even love to start permissioning data or like having preferences stored within Intuition. Like What How come when I go to a new platform I have to like start at zero?

Like why do I need to rebuild my follow list? Why do I need Why does it algorithms need to like pay attention to me for like a month to figure out that like I'm in the market for like a new pair of shoes or whatever? Like I Can I just like pick up where I left off? Like let me just like hand over like, you know, like avatar style, like plug in to like this new application I'm using. I don't think that's 5 years out. I think that might be more like 7 to 10 years out. Um But then again, I have no idea because like AI is definitely a a sector that we're like very interested in supporting and like I think we're thinking about it in a very innovative way. And I just don't think there's that many people thinking about or rather like building

in the the world the cross-section between like verifiable data and like thinking about AI agents at the same time. And I think people are drastically underestimating how quickly that's going to continue to grow, which might mean that I'm also underestimating like potential for growth. Um but like I don't know. The future's tough to predict. Yeah, very tough to predict. So wrapping up here, I guess what we learned is that Intuition is creating this this distributed framework for creating these these portable reputations and preferences, packaging that and driving the monetization of that towards the

suppliers of the data themselves versus the collectors. Um What can we What can we What can someone who's listening to this learn more about Intuition, keep up with Intuition, and when can we expect to actually start Intuitioning? To add on to that, are there Is there anything actionable at the moment that people can look into as well? Matt, with your like cool, calm, collected radio voice, do you want to do a little do a little bit? I I I definitely don't have a voice for radio.

It's the microphone. It's the microphone. It's It's wonders. Yeah, it sounds so good. Um Follow on Twitter. Uh Go to the website. Um And I I think more than anything over the next few weeks, like honestly, put notifications on for the Twitter. And then like I know that kind of sounds like kind of cringe. Like, oh yeah, like put notifications on our Twitter. Like do you We're really so important? But like honestly, like all I have to like over the next few weeks, I think it would be like really beneficial to like be early to some of our content. Um So yeah, to interact to to to interact with Intuition, um that's coming um very soon.

Um There's been years of work being done um that is ready for the public spotlight. Uh and a really fun and engaging I should I say like roll out strategy. Like hopefully from this conversation like people have have understood that I think we're thinking a little bit differently. Uh and we also think about our go-to-market strategy differently. And we think about like what rolling an application out in like 2024 in crypto looks like. And it doesn't look like it did in in 2021 or 2020 or 2018 or 2016. Like each cycle had its own viral way in which you discovered and interacted with new platforms. And I don't I think very very few builders right now are getting it right.

Um I hope we get it right. Uh I don't know if I we'll we'll we'll find out pretty soon. But like obviously there's been a lot of frustration with a lot of like people who've been in the space for a while with like the bifurcation between attention going to like memes or like Bitcoin. And everyone in the middle is like kind of scratching their head what to do. And I think like that's probably a failure to innovate and a failure to adapt. So like I look forward to like our iteration cycle getting this product out into the world, getting people interacting, and like everything else we got going for the rest of this year. So yeah, follow on Twitter, turn on notifications, go to our website. There's a link to our Discord on the website. I think those are all the most major platforms. Maybe DM Billy if you

want to work with us. Like if this sounded interesting and you want to build on Intuition, like we are about to uh open up documentation for those APIs and SDKs. So hit up Billy. Yeah, that was perfect. And I I guess like to add a little bit onto that, Twitter is 0xIntuition. Website is intuition.systems for those of you who are just listening to this and don't have a link to a thing for some reason. Um and then yeah, to Matt's point, we've got what I think is a very creative roll out strategy where we are incrementally introducing people to the functionalities and primitives of Intuition over time in these bite-size pieces. So all you got to do is follow along. And all you got to do is play the

game that you're presented with at that moment in time. And then over time those might coalesce into something that like was unexpectedly beautiful. So we'll see how it plays out, but that's that is our strategy. Great. Thanks so much for hopping on. It was a pleasure. Thank you guys. This is awesome. Thank you very much, Zach. You guys were great. We have teamed up with the Wormhole Foundation, stewards of the Wormhole protocol, the leading interoperability platform powering cross-chain transfers for over 200 plus multi-chain dApps. Wormhole isn't just a bridge, it's a leading interoperability platform for multi-chain applications.

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