The Real Reason Kraken Built an L2 | Andrew Koller & Hilmar Orth

Transcript

let's let's take Kraken on chain let's figure out how we can start taking our best-in-class ux uh security and everything that we do for Consumer and pro and our deep uh Central order books and how do we how do we take that on chain we are building web three right we're building a a new internet and you want to be connected to everyone else and as soon as you do your own thing and uh then it might not be as easy as you thought uh to be interoperable with all of them scale is the blockchain that is Simply Built different other l networks have costly transaction fees clunky user experiences and lack true adoption in Ai and onchain gaming explore the gas-free ecosystem at scale.

spacecosmos is just not going to unlock the next generation of applications super containers offers dedicated customizable app spaces running on supra's 500 ktps layer one blockchain giving you complete control over gas tokens and fees get notified when super containers are ready for Builders at super.com containers hey everyone just wanted to let you know that mantle is releasing two new assets cm eth and cook these

tokens will allow the community to more easily participate in re staking and earn cook rewards in addition to other yields through meth protocol be sure to give at meth protocol a follow onx to stay up toate with the latest news in the ecosystem tired of losing track of all your tokens Unis swap wallet is designed to easily manage store and swap your crypto all in one place access thousands of tokens across ethereum and more than 10 other chains instantly by using Unis swaps wallet today download it today it's available on Chrome IOS and Android hit the link in today's show notes to get started hey everyone Jason here there's a reason why Ledger is trusted

to secure more than 20% of the world's crypto assets today check out their newest devices The Ledger stacks and The Ledger Flex featuring the world's first secure touchscreens take your security seriously hit the link in the show notes of today's episode to check out their latest devices trust me you won't regret it [Music] what's going on everyone we're recording this uh Thursday morning Kraken just announced Inc um obviously had to record an emergency episode with Andrew who is the founder of Inc Inc is kraken's new L2 and then hmar um who actually I met at permissionless uh the founder of gelato there are these rollup as a service platforms gelato is one of them

uh and Kraken worked with jelat to launch the L2 so I thought we could have a conversation about kraken's L2 but also so there's actually a bigger thing happening which is app chain thesis Unis swap launched uni chain everyone's talking about everyone's launching a chain everyone's launching L2 why are we doing this how do you do it is it really does it really cost $15 million a year to do this um and so I think this hopefully this conversation turns into a bigger thing but um yeah Andrew welcome to the show hmar welcome thank you thank you for having us pleasure to be here yeah um Andrew let's start with the basics Inc um obviously I know what is is but I want to know I want to know the backstory like I want to know when you guys started kind of scheming this up

like when what was the initial meeting were you in those meetings or then you got hired to do this like tell me the tell me the backstory of this yeah um there's a lot to it so I'm going to try to do The Abridged version but you can do you can do the long version too share share your share the real one Let's Do It Let's Do It um so I've been I've been at Kraken almost six years and um have worked on so many different you know products with like list coins with you know building out the custody solution building out a cryptography team doing all the kind of like basic things that you know an exchange needs to do and making really good deposit withdrawal ux making really good ux across consumer and and pro products uh but it kind of got to this point where it felt like

okay what what else you know what where can we take it Beyond an exchange and this was um almost two years ago at this point you know maybe year and a half uh I rehired somebody or I was trying to rehire somebody that I'd worked with in the past asked we built the par chain product at at Kraken before kind of like that was like our first teaser of like an onchain thing and I rehired him um because I did a very long walk in Amsterdam with him where it was like we got to we got to do something else we got to do something more we got to try to take Kraken onchain and uh you know we had like a five hour walk where we kind of came up with this idea of like okay let's just you and me let's just do

all kinds of experiments let's do zero knowledge proof verifiers let's make some contracts where you know you can uh authenticate to a a liquidity pool or something like that or you know even running all the stacks out there like let's do the test net on arbitrum let's do a super chain test net Let's uh do ZK sync let's run everything and um we had a lot of internal like fun with that where it was a bunch of contests you know people minting things I had lawyers uh deploying contracts which I never expected a lawyer to to do but they were deploying contracts on chain uh support agents and you know um product managers were all like getting in there so it was we had like a lot of really good feedback and it was really obvious to us to just take this further um and then we

settled on uh the super chain that was you know us joining something that was like really strong Network effects and it it felt like the right move because it was really easy to use uh the optimism team is absolutely fantastic to work with and then um yeah we we said okay this is it let's let's take Kraken on chain let's figure out how we can start taking our best class ux uh security and everything that we do for Consumer and pro and our deep uh Central order books and how do we how do we take that on chain and that includes all the like authentic authentication layers um accounts you know anything that's ins silary to accessing that Central uh liquidity how do we take that offchain stuff put it on chain and it made sense

for us to just have have our own chain and uh then we met Hilmar and we decided a gelato was an awesome launch partner because uh you know I don't want run the thing ourselves it's it's nice to have some help nice what is the if you were sitting down with maybe a board member at Kraken or uh you you know we had Dave Ripley on the show several months ago and we're talking about a potential Kraken IPO and you're talking with like a public market investor or something think about Kraken how would you explain the the why behind Inc like why does Kraken need to move on chain so the you know again I think it's um it's kind of taking the we've always offered trading and buying and selling of the the assets that we support and

all the blockchains that you know the hundreds of them that we run and it just um from like a creative standpoint it made sense for us to like actually get involved in that okay we're offering this um as a product for people to buy and sell but you know it just kind of intuitively felt like okay we need to we need to actually put something on chain and and work with the things that we're enabling people to buy and sell and then you know getting like philosophical on it I think like we it's no secret that the deck's volume is is um you know sometimes surpassing centralized volume and I think it made sense for us to like explore that Avenue and and realize that those OG like Cipher Punk values of crypto with um self- sovereignty

permissionless money self- custodial like being able to plug in and just do something straight from your desk to manage your whole wealth uh it made sense for us to lean into that because Kraken has always held those really close to us like we have a ton of ogs at Kraken that have been in the space you know since like 2013 2012 and um you know we we always kind of internally hold those that culture really close so this made sense for us to just take what do we do on a centralized format how do we move it more on chain uh can you tell me what it was like getting the company on board with this I I read in a um I forget if we wrote this or Bloomberg wrote this but you you guys have like 40 people working on this um we've tried to do I mean we

we have 75 people atock Works we've tried to do initiatives sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't it usually actually has nothing to do with the technical aspect of it it usually is about getting the company to like get on board with this thing what what did that look like to put it simply doing all those experiments and having the the the lawyers that would be telling us no or yes get involved with it and actually like use the tech was insanely valuable um so uh there's this like um internal Inc General channel that we have that uh I kind of left it as like an open channel for the whole company to join in and and you know explore with us on this journey on chain and it grew to like a thousand members really fast um so there

there's a thousand people in there that are all internal to cracken and they all just are shooting ideas everywhere they are deploying things on chain they're all having fun so it was important to just like yeah take the whole company along for the ride nice nice um the obvious response which I saw this in uh you know and a lot of the Twitter threads and Twitter replies when when this got announced was does the world really need another L2 and actually H Hillmar I'd love your take on this too but maybe we can start with Andrew um because I think I think those those reply guys are going to get really fed up in the next several months as you know probably hundreds of l2s go live um but yeah Andrew how do you think about this like why does the world need another

L2 I'll be I'll be uh quick with my my response and pass it over to Hillmar but uh like honestly we were talking about this a little bit offline too but like why not why why would you not do an L2 because and this is a cliche that's kind of overplayed but much like the 90s of the tcpip kind of convergence of the internet protocols I feel like that's happening with um you know super chain and particularly ethereum and you know some of the the the kind of cross chain intents and stuff so if everything's converging um why would it why would companies not have their own their own L2 if they can bring all their authentication like players to be easy ux oneclick type of things where you're using some kind of uh liquidity that you don't you know you don't have to go

through like several hops of Brokers and all that kinds of uh Jazz to to get there then yeah why would you not take your stack on chain and then uh one final thing though is like there was an interview a long time ago with Hayden um where when he he launched Unis Swap and he said something like for once in like my engineering career you can launch a a you know application used by millions users and you can go to sleep at night and not worry about the infrastructure right because it's it's all running on chain all the contracts are there everybody has a visibility into it and if we had more of our services um doing that powering defi um I would love it I I want to go to sleep at night not worry about databases helmar how do you think about this yeah I fully agree with Andrew um

why not right I think it used to be that hey it's actually really difficult to spin up your own chain um and so why would you go through all the hustle of actually doing doing it but these days you have providers like us that really focus on making it as easy as possible and abstracting all the complexity away so so why not right why would you share like we we look at rollups layer twos as verifiable servers and um do you think you can scale the world um like scale on chain to the world uh with a single server like a couple of server that everyone has to share I think that's for me not a realistic scenario I believe in the hypothesis that you have um that companies like kaken actually have multiple chains eventually that can horizontally scale um similar to how the

web 2 internet scaled and so the more block space you can actually get the better and especially if it's straightforward for you and affordable to do then why why wouldn't you do it why would you share uh your blog space with someone else where there are some random applications on that you actually don't want to interact with or you don't want to have on your chain right I think that's that's a big part um and I think the big difference between now and let's say like the old L1 era that I personally believe is coming to an end or um will will not get the same traction as let's say for example Ink chain is that we have companies now launching chains that actually have users right I'm talking about like uh a Bitcoin based base or like uni chain

with Unis swap or Kraken and Ink chain right they have real users uh that they can actually Channel onchain and the most important thing still is to grow the onchain user base we have like 30 to 60 million users I think A6 Z's 2024 report yeah mentioned um and the central exchanges they have a ton more probably um and so if they can funnel them on and help accelerate the adoption for onchain this is just great so the more the more chains the marrier I believe more change the marrier good for gel's business um Hillmar can you explain that to me you said Kraken could have multiple l2s I don't think I understood that yeah so similar to how like Kraken today doesn't like we look at ver rollups as

verifiable servers right it's such a like it's like a you have a server where you can run some Logic the difference is that it's actually verifiable and trustless for other people to interact with and you don't have to trust it like the server logic is actually what uh the company claims it to be um but of course similar to in web 2 kaken doesn't run on a single server right Ken runs probably on a ton of servers that they can horizontally scale via like Cloud providers or maybe they even build like their own um data centers or something where they build technology to enable this and and this is what we're already seeing happening in web3 there are there are already applications where a single rollup just can't handle the load appropriately and uh their applications

or their ecosystems actually need to be sort of sharded and this is what ethereum's Ro was eventually at the beginning as well they wanted to Shard ethereum right you need to Shard the state and access to the state across multiple instances and um I believe in a couple of years kaken will grow beyond the capabilities of what a single rollup can provide them today and so they will need to have a more sort of elastic Web Two like scaling solution in my opinion and so this goes a bit against sort of vertical monolithic hey one chain that can scale to the world I just don't believe in this I think you will need to have multiple instances that are all interconnected and this is really what we jow to try to help build and help achieve for these projects what do you think

Andrew I think um I think we're obviously like a long way away from that but I definitely see that future right like you can imagine um if we had all of our clients on chain right now every single one of the millions uh our current one could probably scale with that with the limited you know because we're going in mayet and q1 with the limited offering um it would probably work on that but now if we're starting to decentralize the stack a little bit more and we're saying okay as we push more into def we need um you know we need something that just handles like authentication and maybe ATT testation right and that's like happening all the time and that's like one uh piece of the stack that's interruptable with the others I could see that being a future that's interesting if you don't

like that Kraken has one L2 just wait till they have multiple l2s um how long we have tentacles right so yeah exactly exactly yeah fits with the octopus um how long did it take to go from uh Hey deciding like you know what let's let's do this we've got exact sign off like let's make this happen to to today um trying to think of the timelines I think this was maybe um 8 months I think I think a solid eight months um some of the experimentation was before that earlier in the year but uh I think like eight months of a timeline of um you know really deciding on on the super chain uh deciding on launch partners and

then working through all of the kind of complexities that it takes to make sure you have like the most cracked engineering team that you can get for protocol development and uh you know having all the the support that you need across like Discord and everything it was uh it was a big buildup yeah yeah how did you think about sequencing the launch of an L2 so uh you guys launched as soon as you guys launched your wallet that was the moment in time when I was like ah they're launching an L2 um and there are obviously things that you have to to do I mean you could have like you could have just launched the L2 then had a wallet but probably not it's obviously way better if you have the wallet because it's kind of accessible like how did you think about uh SE sequencing

this whole thing yeah this this is an interesting question because wallet is something that we always had in development we wanted to make sure that we were providing again leaning into like Kraken OG values we wanted to make sure that we had our self- custodial offering and um it kind of uh was uh independent of of the wallet for a while it was just you know like okay we have these ideas of taking Kraken on chain if we're going to do an L2 then we need to make sure that wallet is very much plugged into that so with this kind of um this move and making sure that Kraken is releasing ink you know we're releasing that that we have an L2 and then also wallet is very intertwined with that so uh the teams that that I lead are are the Inc team

and then the wallet team and we're going to be very joined at the at the hip and making sure that whatever we're doing on Inc goes into wallet and wallet into Inc vice versa so yeah it was independent to the to to start but then um you know it just made sense like why would why would we be thinking of 4337 or something on Inc and ignore wallet they have to to be joined yeah yeah yeah Hilmar how do you think about sequencing this for I mean zooming out from just Kraken like do you think there's a right way to sequence this is it like do you think folks also should have a wallet if they have an L2 so for me having a wallet um and having users use like having a user base sort of offchain plus having plus having

the chain yourself just provide you with immense superpowers I think this is a pattern we are seeing a lot right with Unis swap wallet un un wallet Bas right kaken um and it just enables you to provide so much better features let's just just think about the like you have a lot of users that have money stored on Kraken to like trade uh buy assets and they have their e there their BTC there right um and it provides them with like a pretty good like web to like experience they can lock in with their email they don't have to worry about private Keys there's custody involved right um what it what what what Cen like I'm not of course if I say something I'm not speaking on behalf of Inc or or Ken it's just like ideas that I have that I

think are plausible for example like why don't you allow the assets that are stored um on your ciz exchange um to be used on Chain by basically being able to have much more control over like the blog space the defy wallet plus then also the centralized exchange and the custody solution you can all intertwine this right right and you can say like hey even though my my my e is on on on Kraken because I don't want to deal with private Keys Etc I can still use them to lend my money out on this Landing market right and and and this is just like the power that you get if you have like a chain where your liquidity sits that you can front to users the wallet that connects um your offchain balances with your onchain account and has like some

signatures to verify this and then of course the exchange where the custody is is based so um I think we will see more of this and yeah all of this together just provides you with like these superpowers yeah I I completely agree it's a superpower and uh um I mean we will at q1 be working like very in the open um so you know cannot confirm or deny like some of the things that helar is saying maybe we are working on but it'll all be out there in the open you can just read the code um but the uh it is a superpower and I think that um having being a part of the super chain like we're we're really not viewing the wallet as like a super competitive thing right it's like it's like our portal right it's our tool that we're going to

be leveraging our L2 with and in it we're going to be you know connecting to all of the other super chains too we're not going to ignore anyone I we launched the wallet with base support um and uh you know when we did launch it we knew that that we were joining the super chain at that time so we wanted to make sure that it is that Rising tide All Ships and we're we're supporting everyone that's cool that was actually going to be one one of my questions Andrew is are are you are you going to do uh base support so I like that maybe we can get into actually the slightly more technical side of things um which is the decision to launch on the super chain um there's a really interesting like battle right now going on between I'd call it like the op stack and super

chain arbitrum orbit uh Avalanche l1's Cosmos been around for a while obviously ZK Sync has the elastic chains someone's going to get mad at me because I'm forgetting them Anisha etc etc I love you I forget you um how did you think about picking optimism Here Andrew did you guys do a full review of like alas ZK elastic chains and and and Avalanche and Cosmos and arbitrum orbit did you did you do that or you just were very close with Ben and what at optimism like what was the story here a little bit of all of it honestly like we knew the optimism team I think pretty well um but like on the technical side we did try we went through everyone

right we we had at one point we had an arbitrum running with um or arbitrum stack with the um uh I'm drawing a blank at the at the name right now um stylus sorry we had stylus running and we were allowing some of our uh internal rest developers to to make some stylus contracts and it was it was a good kind of trial period of that and that that is powerful technology we we loved using it and being able to write some arbitrary contracts and and rust or import some crates that just needed a little bit of changing to be able to work on chain that was was uh really cool to use but ultimately it was um you know the kind of like immediate interrup ability that super chain was going for and knowing that the network effects are extremely strong already and um we would

be a part of that kind of interruptable network that is going to be sharing liquidity so uh it really came down to like the the interop ability as like kind of like the first um ultimate decider on that well all of them are interoperable right like arbitrum is interoperable with other garbage from things and elastic chain things are interoperable with other elastic chain things do you when you say interoperable do you just mean that they've had early success getting like you know uni chain is there and bases chain Bas is there so so is it less about the technical side of being interoperable it's more that they've had early the network effects are kind of happening I think the network effects are already happening and we just had a lot of confidence in in the road map of that that interop ability being there like like I've said

before like if we executing a trade or swap on Inc and uh the user has no idea that you're tapping into liquidity of anything else on the super chain I felt that that Vision was um was pretty strong and what you know those kind of network effects that are going to increase that the most were on the super chain um and then also the the kind of discussions that go on on um uh you know the super chain discussions about like how do you how do you have interoperability with the rest of the the chains out there so it's really cool to see that nobody's kind of ignoring anyone else right it's like nobody body is kind of making their wild garden saying like super chain for super chain and nobody else it's uh you know that everybody's thinking about the other

interoperability with the other chains what were the who has the leverage in that negotiation Andrew because you know if you look at the like the economics of something like this like like let's use bass for example Bas obviously shares you know a certain percentage of its sequencer Revenue with the optimism treasury we have uh I'm looking at our dashboard it looks like they've earned like 2500 2600 eth in sequencer revenues from base since their launch um yeah about a year ago so that's you 25 200 eth from their sequencer revenues about a year ago that's good money who had the I guess maybe two-part question is like how do you think about that Revenue split for you guys and then who has the leverage in that

negotiation well I think it was a mutual agreement um I think it was it was a very all agreement end up being mutal yeah for sure for sure but like um I think anybody strong armed anybody into saying like we're getting you know we're not paying you a dime or something like that it was uh you know we are using a really powerful stack that has you know an MIT license and so like we we are able to take that and you know we have our super chin compliant thing there's nothing preventing us from modifying it and doing something else on the side if we really wanted to do again like another L2 or even an L3 that's modified uh we loved the freedom that that contract had for us and so um I think it's just it's like almost paying a service fee for using some really

awesome technology that again we don't have to care about we you know we don't have to care about all the upgrades or like worry about managing our stack it's just we get everything out of the box um and I I'm happy to have in the contract some kind of fee to to be able to use that did you ever think about just forking the op stack instead of building on the super chain we did um but like from a cost analysis I I did not want to have like 20 30 protocol Engineers like always keeping up to date and like doing all these changes to the protocol uh to make sure we're you know not introducing any vulnerabilities or uh playing catchup with the rest of the ecosystem I I wanted to make sure that we had a team

that would just focus on the ux the daps um all all the ability to bring Kraken users on chain and not have to worry about like the you know intricacies of of maintaining a blockchain yeah helmar you're nodding nodding and smiling maybe would love to hear your thoughts on this this topic too yeah I think forking the stxs doesn't really make sense like the question is why would you do it right do you want to add like some pre-c compiles or something which at the end of the day mostly just like gas savings to the to to to your chain which arguably with like the upgrades in ethereum with da and blobs is already pretty cheap from a variable cost perspective so um I think what is great about op stack and optimism is what Andrew mentioned is MIT

license open source it I kind of I kind of look at it as we have these sort of server standards that are being developed right now um and do you want to like be on your own sort of version of Linux that like no one else is using or do you just want to like be able to be on the same standard than everyone else uh because if you want to like we are building this we are building web three right we're building a new internet and you want to be connected to everyone else and as soon as you do your own thing and uh then it might not be as easy as you thought uh to be interoperable with all of them and so what op I think very sort of objectively has is Network effects they have right now some of the biggest names some of

the biggest chains one of the like iue probably the biggest the biggest amount of liquidity on their ecosystem um and if you want to be part of this for now I think joining the super chain makes a ton of sense long term I believe every all of these ecosystem will be interoperable right right now we are building these sort of like intranets kind of H we in this pH similar to the internet back then but I'm pretty certain and this is like ZK in my opinion eventually right uh all of these protocols will be interoperability with each other and so um there will be a set of uh standards that will be used probably not one of them but I'm pretty sure op will be one of the the primary

ones it's a good choice himar in youri at gelato how much do you push people into not push people like recommend where to go build so do you like when you go to Andrew did do you say Hey you can use gelato and build anywhere or do you go hey you can use gelato you can build anywhere and by the way we recommend op yeah so so we don't support all stacks and we won't support all Stacks like we support the stacks that we believe in actually who do you who do you support makes sense um so right now we only support op stack and arum orbit stack um there will be more Stacks that we'll be supporting um eventually um but they have to make sense from first principles for us um and we need to like I don't want to run chains on Stacks

that in two years I believe won't be like uh the standard anymore and then there need to be these gigantic migrations so I would rather be up front with the customer and say like hey use the STS that actually makes sense um and um it right now it comes down on a Case by case base I think for for Andrew and the team op Stak makes a ton of sense um uh op uh is is one of the most widely used ones the network effects are great around it performan is is is not like something that you need to really squeeze out now for for Ink chain you don't want to build like the largest perlex in the world probably as an app chain right now there so it's it's fine if you want to if you want to go like super low latency uh you want to service very low

latency use cases then um AUM orbit right now offers like very fast block times for example which are quite useful for this so uh it's always a case by case it's always depends on what the customer really wants to build for for Inc I think op made a ton of sense yeah Andrew why did you guys pick gelato instead of um like I saw Alchemy has a roll up as a service platform I saw Caldera has Caldera is another conduit is another why did you guys pick jelato simply the ease of use but you know in more detail um I think uh like we always love in in this whole journey you know exploring the stacks and everything we always love this U journey of like meeting with the teams and like kind of like seeing how we're going to

elevate each other and Hilmar and his team were like so open to wanting to like work with us on tooling work with us on support basically asking anything that we need uh they'll be there for us and you always had this line of communication open so I think we uh we honestly just like fell in love with that instantly of like this is going to be a really good partnership and then of course the ease of use like anytime that the developers have had need or needed a change or um are deploying like new test Nets like you just click a button I I don't know it's like it couldn't be simpler um so I I only see this relationship growing like um you know for for many years on on hosting this and yeah did you think did you think about doing op stack or let's see trying to

get the terminology right did you think about opting into the Super chain but not doing it through gelato doing it inh house like I I think my understanding is BAS does it in-house right they don't go through gelato or Calder or conduit or one one of the rup as a service providers did you think about doing this yeah we did we did explore ear earlier in the year um but you know as I again as I was kind of doing the cost analysis and like looking at like all the security and everything you got to put in place and the developers that I need to make sure that are basically full-time maintaining this I think it it was actually when the first team we met with was was conduit and they um were pretty accurate in saying that like you need like a full team like a full

infrastructure team like 100% of the time on this without any you know dedication to any other projects and so I you know initially kind of had that in like okay as I'm showing this two Executives and what we're going to have to do um you know that was kind of always in the plan of like I need this full team right here I need the resources for it but then all of that can just be offloaded and uh you know we can have more concentration on like I said the ux and the applications and so you know we kind of abandoned that earlier in the year yeah maybe maybe to chime in here as well why it doesn't really make sense to run it in house and I think the reason why Bas does it because back then there was no good rooll up as a service provider I think

quite frankly um and that's why they didn't have a chance really they didn't have another option um from a cost point of view like you you will always spend more if you do it in house as you say you need to build up an entire team that actually tracks um all of this and then the question is like why would you do this right um if you want to then eventually take this infrastructure and service other rollups as well and if you want to build your own rollup as a service business kind of right then it might make sense to actually do it right because you build up expertise and so on but if that's not your primary business model model if you a business model is something completely different then there's just no way to justify the investment here and so I I believe that

we we won't see any chains that launch by themselves in the future maybe just very rarely due to I don't know maybe whatever political reasons but just from a cost I rent for all the numbers it doesn't make sense it's also not you that you give up any sort of sovereignty or something right it's is something that you can always take in house eventually if you like to what uh Andrew what about the da layer here is it just ethereum ethereum or did you look at like igen layer or Celestia or yeah how do you think about the da lay I think yeah initially we explored everything to to start um Celestia ion layer everything um but we're kind of just going like the simple

route uh for now with ethereum as as the da uh but you know we we are open to any kind of changes in the future I think we don't really have like a strong opinion on da right now however the um the L3 da is like where we you know eventually want to explore a little bit more and see like okay could we have just the L2 as ethereum as da and then l3s we kind of have like this more modular thing where you know you have Celestia for one L3 or we encourage a team to use Celestia we encourage some other team to use rl2 or we encourage them to use you know some other da out there um I think uh I think that's something fun to explore that's cool um tell me how you think

about Inc vers Bas and also like what you think Bas has done a good job at and what you think you know you've got the hindsight of having you know they've been around for a year so you can you can learn a lot of lessons um so what what do you think that they maybe this is the wrong way to put it like not not what did they do wrong but like what could you do better than them so what what Bas is doing like amazingly in massive respect to Jesse and the team it's um it's really fun to have watched them over like you know the last year or two years but um yeah the the generalist approach I think is really really cool because it it really is just building anything on chain like literally anything under the sun um but

you know where where we are taking it is like a more of a Bottoms Up approach instead of like fully generalist of you know come build everything and and you know make whatever it may be like your ice cream truck on chain or your dog walking service on chain or something something like that we want to focus on more of like the specific defi use case take our you know decade and a half experience of centralized order books get those things on chain somehow um make it so that onchain users can tap into that and vice versa um so we really want to make that like really good defi ux reduce the number of clicks make it super safe make sure we have sequencer level security so that you know people don't even know that rugs exist or don't

even know that drainer contracts exist that would be an absolute dream come true so I think that like kind of hyperfocus on the um the defi theme first is is where we're going to we're going to take ours nice uh the the last thing on the economics that I forgot to ask is what is your Revenue split with optimism um I don't know if I want to say fair fair you'll see it I mean when the data starts starts getting there I think it I think it'll be very yeah yeah yeah well I'm I'm sure we'll add you guys to um but we're starting to basically add I don't know if you can here I can zoom in a little bit we're basically adding different uh chains on the super chain into this one aggregate super chain view so you right

now we have base mode op main net and Zora we need to add I want to add crack I want to add ink and then I want to add um uh uni chain as well but you can start to break down like the financials transaction fees by base transaction fees breakdown L1 expense by Chain gross margin you can start to look it on chain activity um and then you can start to actually break it down by dashboard so yeah we'll have to we'll have to get ink on here awesome yeah it'll it'll definitely be transparent there um so hang cool cool and that's that's the beauty of onchain stuff right it's all transcri yeah we will know we don't even need to ask Andrew anymore we will know Andrew um anything else in terms of like

base that you think they got that where you think they might have like missed the mark um I don't know like I I again like all of us internally don't really view it as as competition So like um you know we don't we don't think that we're trying to like Dethrone anyone we're just like joining um you know an ecosystem and you know doing it in our own way and bringing our users on chain but you know maybe it's the uh you know like I said on that hyper Focus we want to make sure that um some of the tooling we make really enables specific applications and maybe know Bas is doing really well that generalized tooling so um if we have the oneclick thing where you can just like spin up a template on uh a spe specific application and that's I think that's

where we're going to do well nice yeah that's actually what I was going to ask you next was about developer tooling like they have obviously pushed they did you know coinbase wallet then base and then now they're pushing really heavily into developer tooling is that where you guys think you'll go next or is there a different variation on that yeah we definitely will like leading up to mainnet we are going to um get a lot of tooling out there um but like I said it is going to be very focused uh I think it'll have a lot more ties to Kraken and its infrastructure and like like I said trying to bridge that offchain to onchain World um so again like the order book centralized um liquidity to onchain and then the the authentication layer and maybe some attestation right I I think our tooling

will be like very focused on those like parts of the stack and um allowing people again to have like good templates and cursor repet uh for defi applications that which could be like charts um you know like a swap screen or Perpetual future screen or options whatever it is scale is the blockchain that is Simply Built different let's face it other L1 networks have costly transaction fees that increase as the network gets busier scale has solved this problem with a gas-free scalable infrastructure where users never pay gas fees scale was awarded the most active gaming chain in 2020 three by coin Gecko and host five of the top 25 games on dap radar you should definitely check out

scale I was using it the other day it really is incredible to use that's scale spelled with a K hit the link in the show notes or head on over to scale dospace system to get started today let's face it building on crowded l1s or expensive l2s is just not going to unlock the next generation of applications in crypto that's where super containers come in offering a completely new solution that transforms your development control imagine dedicated customizable app spaces running on supra's 500 ktps layer one blockchain you get complete control over gas tokens and fees with the freedom to use your own token create local fee markets or even go gasless scale on

demand and build with better customization than app chains all at a fraction of the cost plus with multi-m compatibility you can easily deploy your evm move and svm smart contracts it's time to rescue your projects from the costs complexities and fragmentation of traditional Solutions get notified when super containers are ready for Builders at super.com containers hey everyone Jason here I'm excited to tell you about meth protocol meth is a permissionless and non-custodial eth liquid staking protocol deployed on ethereum and governed by mantle meth is now the fourth largest LST with one .3 billion in tvl and uh there are two assets

releasing soon in late October and November cm eth and cook and I'm going to tell you all about them cm eth is a liquid reaking token and it will launch in season 2 allowing users to easily participate in reaking and earn cook rewards cook is the governance token of meth protocol which will allow holders to play a pivotal role in directing the Strategic future of the protocol give me protocol a follow on X to stay up toate with the latest news in the ecosystem Unis swap wallet is designed to easily manage store and swap your crypto all in one place access thousands of tokens across ethereum and 10 plus chains including Bas arbitrum optimism

and more Unis swaps wallet has built in me protection and zero gas fees with swaps that go through Unis swap X you can also swap with the peace of mind that the code is completely open source and independently audited download it today it's available on Chrome IOS and Android earlier in today's episode I mentioned Ledger latest products the stacks and flex and I wanted to take a few seconds to tell you more about them these wallets feature the world's first secure touchscreens which don't just simplify your digital transactions but also keep them extremely safe these wallets are virtually impenetrable to online attacks because they store your private key in a secure offline chip you can manage more than 5,500 tokens and

install up to 100 apps choose the most trusted name in Hardware wallets and take control of your digital Security today at ledger.com or hit the link in the description of today's episode to check out their latest wallets I mean you you guys are obviously amazing like world class at building trading things trading experiences institutional trading experiences prosumer retail will you take some of that experience and start to build your own apps on on Inc like your own trading apps or yeah how do you think about actually building at the app layer here I think in initially we're not going to you know go straight into like say we have a team that's building

an app that that they Deploy on chain and then it's like something incubated by by Kraken um I use the word incubator there because we do we are setting some an incubator up where we're going to be working with teams that maybe don't have a home yet and they're kind of early stage and they want to get in uh on a fresh ecosystem with some tooling that we can help them out with um and we'll be helping fund those and you know that's an the incubator that they can they can be a part of they can get into our channels and you know we'll be right there with them uh I think it would be maybe um you know maybe six months or a year down the line where we might want to actually focus on some uh our actual applications and deploying those onchain

nice what what do you think that could look like um I don't really know that could be that could be could be an our own decks um it could be uh you know something that has to do more with consumer um not ready to say yet okay okay I'll take the I don't know is I do know but I'm not ready to share it I'll rephrase I'll rephrase for you um what does it mean to be defi focused um because there's a there's a marketing and a cultural thing of being D5 focused which is like hey BD team should like get D5 people to come come build but there's actually a technical aspect too like you can start to do things um I don't know what's a thing that would make it more friendly to defi

you could enshrine oracles um you could do something like enshrining in or like oracles like uh like like Atlas did right that actually technically does make it more friendly for for defi uh to come build there so how do you think about the that from a cultural and BD perspective but actually more importantly I'm kind of interested in the technical side of focusing on defi yeah from the from the BD perspective of course that's like you know Outreach to everything that that is out there to make sure that you know they have a nice and easy home to to be able to deploy their stack um and so like you know you need that you need that liquidity on your chain but again super chain and interoperability hopefully you know you don't have to worry about like every single protocol going over to your chain in the future

but um you know it's kind of the the we we're doing a lot of experiments on Cross chain intense right now so 7683 standard we we want to make sure that um we have really good documentation and you know we're leaning into that does everything all the advancements with 7702 um anything that requires so many different steps in defi um that requires a lot of actions by the user we want to reduce that friction too so um leaning into leaning into 7702 I think helps with that um I I think that's that you know any of the other things again like we're kind of shy with this initial announcement but then the moment we go to testnet and mainnet there's there's a lot more on

the way yeah when are those dates testet is November 11th uh right at Devcon we have a hacker house on that day um and then uh main net is early q1 it could accelerate too depending on how uh ambitious uh and how many late nights we want let's go love it accelerate Andrew accelerate um uh Hillmar how many l2s do you think launch in the next several months hundreds what is the hundreds hundreds let's go hundreds like we already seeing like in production we'll see until the end of the year right but uh I think it will eventually will come to a point where every bigger application will like

right now what is happening is that um a lot of the bigger all of the bigger we3 applications that you know today they will have their own chain this is already obvious to me you just need to read the forums and read between the lines and tweets of follows and stuff right this is already happening with every every single larger application um and what is now happening is we're seeing um um Web Two organizations or C like I say Central exchanges that are very crypto native like Kraken for example they are now also coming on chain this is actually what I'm most excited about because they bring new users to the ecosystem uh that they already have which are crypto uh trained um and then I think we will eventually

go to to the point where we actually have non- crypto focused tech companies join in non- crypto focused finance companies come and join in we see it with black rock of course not with their own chain right now but uh they're experimenting and we already in talks with some other really bigger Enterprises that are thinking about doing it that unfor cannot talk about but they're like um some of the biggest tech companies in the world that are thinking about it so uh I'm pretty certain we will maybe not over the next three month but over the next year or so see uh tremendous uptick in this I think I think it'll be um like yeah we'll definitely see like Black Rock and nasda and DOW Jones like all all these places uh um you know I I I

hope uh you know this isn't like just like complete you know bullish optimism but I I do hope in 10 years like it is just like every every single big company out there has their own L2 or has their own chain in some format and um there's so much more of our like online activity that's happening on chain even Beyond Finance um and then um you know I think uh I don't know if you don't mind like hmmer I do have a question on on rollups as a service do you see competition in in Google or or AWS do you think there's rases coming out um from bigger players it would make sense of course right like if if I would be Google if I would be versel or or or AWS or something this should be on their radar

eventually of course the question is do they want to build themselves do they want to acquire do they want to what what is their game plan here um I think it will be very difficult for them to be as Cutting Edge uh as kind of like we are that are literally in the trenches um building a contributing to the stacks ourselves we are contributing to the up stack for example contributing to other Stacks so H it takes a lot of expertise I think to be ahead of the curve and things are changing so rapidly you mentioned they're like five Stacks right like um how do you want to deal with that so I I do believe it's is inevitable for them they have to come in eventually um uh but yeah let's see how in what sort of form they will enter I think that's that's interesting yeah

cool uh I think that will happen sooner rather than later by the way um one of those people that you mentioned I think we'll do that um Andrew can you I know hilmar's pitched to me Hilmar gave me the pitch of permission list that blockwork should have an L2 and he then went and built a blockworks L2 on gelato which I which I haven't used at all but it was good good marketing made for a good tweet um Andrew do you think so you said that all all these big organizations will have l2s uh I would agree with you if they H if they move money in some way like I I understand that Vision if they move money or they trade or they have assets somewhere but someone like block works like there's no money moving through our platform there's like there's like words

and audio and stuff like that um why would why should why should blockworks have an L2 or do you think that we should not have an L2 what um what's the biggest uh you know like so you said audio and video you know like it's it's all like production um like what do you what would your users want if you said right now like we're doing an L2 do you think you would just get like a terrible reaction like why like what am I going to do with it I mean I mean I think we' get an amazing reaction because everybody wants I mean I've I've probably had a thousand people try to they they would they would be excited but for the wrong reason they want blockworks to have a token so the

number of people who want blockworks to have a token uh so they'd be I think excited about that like give them what they want give them what they want but there's nothing to do on CH like there's no there's no thing on chain so if honestly it feels like like I mean everyone pitched Us in 2018 to do in early 2018 and in 2017 but well before we that was really before we had block works But like everyone wanted us to do an Ico and then we're like obviously we're not doing an Ico and then it was like in 2021 it's like are you going to launch a token we're like we're not launching a token and now it feels like are you going to launch an L2 we're not going to launch an L2 H so I mean there could be just like the governance structure of it I mean

that that's like one like you know that is influenced by a token so like you've already obviously explored that in the um you know our distant past of the Ico era um but you know it's like I I love the like I said earlier with Hayden's comment of like infrastructure you don't have to car care about it's just onchain so even beyond the finance and everything that like user authentication and like kind of social aspect of it so if black works if blockworks was more moving into like anything that has to do with social or like you want to um socialize some more of your content into like your own ecosystem and your own chain where like profiles like evolve over time based on like how people are interacting with your your content and

products um I I could see it being something that maybe you launch and it's like okay now let's see let's see where we can take this right let's do some social stuff let's um you know let's get some of our user authentication on there yeah okay maybe to add to that like for me rollups I see rollups today as sort of like extensions of companies that enable also other people to access either the user base or some sort of Ip or unique value from that company and do something with it for example in the in the case of let's say a Bas or Kraken what you have is you have a ton of users you have order flow you have people that

want to that are willing to buy and sell assets and you can redirect them to an ecosystem where then other people can come in and they can use this liquidity in this order flow that is directed to this chain to then build cool applications that actually leverage that right um pip pendu py penguin chain what is abstract or something right do they need a chain and they have IP right they will probably want to take this IP and make it available for Builders and say like okay cook let's see what do you come up with with my IP you can rent it you can pay me for it you can build a game with it you can do this right so um you guys are probably more on the IP side like you own probably IP you generate IP you generate content can you

make this content accessible to people can pay can people rent this content borrow this pay for it and and and and remix it and do something with it that you can benefit if that's the case I think then uh there might there might actually be um a use case right but if you don't have that of course at some point not everyone has to have a chain in the next couple of years but I think there there can be use cases some somehow I've walked myself into a sales pitch from hmar so I'm gonna I'm gonna pivot back to uh to Inc Here Andrew how do you uh how do you think about the Inc token or a future token so Bas has obviously not had a token I believe that one day they will have a token even though they keep

saying they're not doing a token um I'm curious how you think about this so no no plans uh at this time for any kind of token um I you know we've always like just thought about it like in the exploration and experiment experimentation phase like what would it look like if we did have one um but you know that was definitely sheld and there's no no plans it why not like is that only a obviously your lawyer said to say that like that is a you know you know but like why actually why not is it because is it 100% because of the regulation in the legal side like let's say there were no Regulators in this world would you

launch a token 100% um I I think it would be a lot of fun to do uh I think I think you absolutely could do um some fun things with like your own token and doing some kind of native yield with it or you know like having governance and all all all the things that you know you've done with tokens in the past um but the yeah I I think that we have to see what happens with um the regulatory side and everything uh on you know the elections coming up in the US and then fortunately there's a lot of clarity coming around the world like with M and Europe and everything um but uh I I think it's way easier to just build something and like you

create a really good L2 with good ux um and not worry about that side because it it does get really complex and uh I could see us having an easier path to it sometime in the future but like that you know right now it's just not even on our minds were there conversations about how doing this the pros and cons of doing this in relationship to a kraken IPO hm like if there's conflicts yeah like maybe public Market investors don't like that you guys have a chain it's confusing it skews the messaging um it's not as clear of a of a of a message I think um the the feedback that I know that we've gotten from you know

the board or or other kind of tangential like Kraken investors is that this is really this is us like pushing the company further so it's like I don't think there's any kind of conflict of conflict of interest with our current products and user base it's just another offering it's another you know networking Avenue for Kraken clients to experience more of the ecosystem um and hopefully you know more of our ecosystem so I I haven't seen any kind of like um you know conflict on uh like does it cannibalize anything or vampire attacks or or anything like that yeah how do you think maybe you could tell me the rest of like your thoughts on the rest of the um like Synergy between kraken's business and Inc so two two of the things that I was thinking about are I mean you guys have like interesting

stuff happening on the Bitcoin front um and then you also o have interesting stuff I mean you guys have always dominated the staking space I forget the company that you guys acquired back in the day I think it was called stake yeah so today you have um I should have pulled up our staking dashboard Pro probably like a I'd guess roughly a million eth Stak on the platform give or take a couple hundred thousand um I'd guess you guys are probably third biggest Exchange in terms of amount Stak probably top seven to 10 in terms of like total platforms with stake on it how do you maybe we can start there like how do you think about this uh intersection of staking and now you have the wallet and now and you have this big centralized platform and and now you

have the chain like how does that come together I think the the dream that I've always had ever since like starting this this project like over a year ago was um how do we make sure that every single product at at Kraken eventually you know with enough education and in you know ability to use a really easy to use chain every single product or every single PRD has some onchain component to it um so if somebody's thinking of some traditional Finance type thing that we are building and integrating there better be a nice big section in research of onchain in that PRD um and I think for for staking specifically like this is a really awesome team of of people building out Inc and in the wallet and all the tooling around that and they're

going to be providing a ton of Education um because we we have amazing talent all across Kraken some people maybe haven't used anything on chain before so we want to make sure that you know the whole compan is plugged into that and so like things with staking that you know we just did kbtc our kind of first WRA token I I think we want to leverage the talent we have on ink to you know kind of have that bridge with the exchange and say what else can we wrap you know what other maybe uh liquid staking tokens Can we do you know what um what kind of yield opportunities can we provide on some of the things that we have on our on our centralized platform um and it's all you know those kinds of things as we're standing this this up is all an experimentation and kind of like

early every phase but um Inc has a very large uh you know kind of influence being able to educate and spawn these kind of news new ideas and and different domains how do you think about the other side which is the the Bitcoin side I'd also be curious to get both your guys' take on just like zooming out from just crack and like Bitcoin Defi and like this whole like Bitcoin Renaissance and the Bitcoin l2s that are happening but maybe Andrew if you want to start with like how that intersects with Inc and then I'd love both of your guys' take hillmart included just yeah this whole Bitcoin Renaissance I think um okay like really quick personal views on it is uh and they shouldn't cloud like what's going to be popular because I I could

just have the unpopular opinion is I want Bitcoin to like aify and I don't want the protocol touched because I love you know I love myself and my friends being able to maximize their the wealth as much as possible with Bitcoin um and then I I don't really want that touched right I love that the other networks are doing a lot of experimentation you have ethereum that has you know compute on it and everything and that's like where um you know you can do more things than you could do on bitcoin but with the the Renaissance and everything obviously more power to people if they're doing you know neat things with it I view how it intersects with Inc is we do have our L2 it is on the super chain but we're not going to ignore any other chain out

there like we're we're already doing a little bit of experiments on like how are we going to be ensuring that our intents are you know going to be working with salana um and then if like bit VM and all that with Bitcoin takes off and gets more popular we don't want to ignore any of that um you know of those top chains and of those experimentations um we are always going to at least you know allocate some you know fun like exploration time every month to make sure that um we're not falling behind on any of those Innovations helmar what do you think about all the Bitcoin Renaissance Bitcoin Eco stuff yeah so of course I should be biased towards more l2s and stuff but uh I am mostly bearish on on on most of the Bitcoin l2s that I'm seeing out there um

it it makes sense if you want to bootstrap an ecosystem and you believe that you can get a community red around your sort of ecos your chain your ecosystem and you pick pinpoint like Bitcoin around it and you say okay this is Bitcoin focused and we want to get all the bitcoiners on here I think that makes sense but trying to shoehorn um a roll up into Bitcoin as like probably the most inefficient data availability layer out there is just not something that I think I I find intuitively interesting and I don't think it makes a ton of sense I think it's motivated by the wrong reasons of mostly funded by like big mining operators that want to see some sort of use for Bitcoin and they want to pump their liquidity in

there and then I don't know rally to TV for some chains and so on so I think there a lot of misaligned incentive in these um and I still have yet to see an interesting and compelling pitch actually that that makes me bullish on it um so yeah I'm um not not that crazy you went you went in for the kill shot that was Andrew's too polite um cool Andrew anything else that we're missing on on Inc just that um I mean we we are recording this like as launching right so um incon chain.com um incon chain is the Twitter and uh you know we have that Hacker House on November um 11th that's

when we launch testnet so like go RSVP sign up if you're in Devcon we'd love to meet you nice and this is this is beautiful I we spent so much time doing this design this is such a nice landing page I love this this is we had uh like for this Vibe and this look um just for like some internals on this we had a manyi weeks of like this really cool art art kind of critique session where we were all like getting really philosophical with it where each of us had like 10 minutes to kind of like share like what images made you feel and all that it felt like we were all in art school it was amazing all even the engineers they were opening up and like getting their kind of thoughts out there how we wanted this to look it was such a fun process what is

this design called these little blobs like what's the back story of this what what's the back story of the design how' you pick this internally we call it the Morpheus um so it's the Morpheus blob uh but uh it's it's really like you know we when we came up with Inc it was always like you know the tagline kind of like Inc ink the future um be able to like you know ink your transactions on chain you can you know create anything you want with ink you can make art you can write things um so naturally we just kind of evolved it into like okay uh ink isn't just for writing and drawing you can also like splatter it you can you can just be as creative as you want with it right it's like the pen is mightier than the sword of the old you know old days I

think that's um that's what we got here and you know it's it's a form it's a blob you can do so many things with it it's very uh like liquid metal yeah yeah very nice um kind of like Terminator too like the uh oh yeah yeah yeah um the self healing blobs you got to click dark mode though like there's it's down in the lower left on your screen you got to click that too it's it's pretty where do you see it uh very pretty all right go check it out incon chain.com if you're listening podcast you're like why are these guys talking about this um okay maybe we can wrap with a prediction which is um in five years and hmar this is a kraken related question but hmar I ask you this as well um in five years what percentage

of the of kraken's trading volume will come from onchain vers from uh the centralized exchange jeez um it's hard to give like specific spe ific numbers I can definitely give my my my hope is that okay it's close to 100% And you know it's like what's your what's your realistic prediction like and you know this is this is Andrew's opinion not Krakens all the disclaimers and all that kind of stuff what is your yeah I would love it to if you know taking a step back on just like users if it was like 5 to 10% of our users a year to two years from now are using the The Ink chain and they are you know they have really easy rails to to get on from

the Kraken platform um I would love to see you said five years right I would love to see like a um 20% onchain at least in in five years I know that's a little like may sound pessimistic but um to me that would be that would be amazing um if if it was more than that great I'm a bit bullish I think 10% is right now Dex versus sex volume in general I think um 14% today 14% today um I am hopeful that like for me what what what are the bottlenecks really scalability is a huge bottleneck um like having aut box and stuff on chain is just not feasible also today on Ink chain it won't be feasible to just have everything come on chain and five years

from now I'm pretty pretty hopeful that this will actually be the case so um I think the advantages will outweigh the disadvantages of really not having it so I think probably even 70% 80% I could see in general I think C Dex Dex sex volumes and I think for for you guys will be will be the same I'm I'm more in Hill Mar's Camp by the way we're so we went from 0% so when did when did thing dexes start I mean you could say it's like let's call it April May 2020 when like we started to get actual volumes obviously there was like 2017 um but like real volumes on dexes like what April May 2020 today we're at 14% I would guess we rip through 20% this cycle I would I would guess we could end

this cycle even above 25% yeah I I could I mean overall I I can definitely see after this cycle like overall it's 20% for Kraken like a little bit of um a little bit of insight on like you know if you have old deposit addresses that come from like say 2015 and you rotate them and you kind of expire them for old clients and you say like you know go ahead and grab a new address in 2024 people will still deposit you know to the old addresses uh that have been expired and so we we still maintain that infrastructure so you can do that so nothing against you know like the the grandma that's still like doing that but like I you know I should be a little bit more I think

optimistic that you know people will kind of go on chain and uh it's just like you gota you gotta that's why we got to make that good ux the good Dev tools the good education and just make it so that hopefully users don't even know they're going on chain I I think it will be pricing right so if you get onchain better pricing that you get on your central exchange then um you and you have like KC AML figured out like your user will be prompted with hey do you want to do onchain they shouldn't even be prompted right they should just like get the best price and if the best price is actually onchain versus offchain then I think the order should get one chain that's easy yeah market wins yeah yeah I mean you can even see like the Sexes take more I pulled up

this dashboard of the staking providers after I asked that question and you can actually the interesting line item here I think is um or the column is eth earned so you guys have actually earned the fourth most eth from this but like figman Kiln ether fi have more eth staked on their on their pools than you guys but they've earned way less eth and I think the reason for that is like there's these in like rocket pool uh the I was going to say the reason for this is because there's um the the decentralized platforms take lower fees than Sexes so you're basically paying today there's a premium that the Sexes

can take for security because it feels safer to hold your money with Kraken than it does to move on chain but I think that Security Premium ultimately Trends down to zero over the next several years I think so yeah I think that's that's why that's why we're kind of keeping security as a top theme too so like if we can if we can bring our talent to make sure that Ink chain feels like you're using the centralized exchange then you know you've won yeah I think that's smart Andrew I know it's a busy day congrats on the launch hmar um congrats on help Kraken with this and making it possible and yeah thanks uh to both you guys for for coming on the show thank you so much thanks hey everyone thanks for watching today's episode just wanted to quickly

thank today's title sponsor scale scale really is one of the best chain experiences out there today and I've used so many different chains there's a reason they are gaining so much adoption in both gaming and AI use cases hit the link in the show notes to explore the scale ecosystem [Music] n [Music]