Rari's March to $1 Billion| Jai Bhavnani (SotN)

Transcript

hey bankless nation welcome to another episode of state of the nation this is the episode where we go deep on a topic that is in the news and uh today we're going deep on rari capital this is maybe the unit swap of lending they've just made their pools permissionless we're going to talk about what that means we're going to talk about what rari is um i you know i think the tl dr here david is that anybody can be their own compound anybody can open up their own pool and be their own ave but uh give us the the quick rundown of what this is and why it's important why we're talking to jay from rari today yeah just like you said uh rory capital is a modular lending market i think it's an interesting way to explain it and

there's also a chance that during this stream we watch rari capital cross 1 billion dollars in tvl right now it's clocking in at 986 million dollars creeping upwards uh and the growth in rari capital because of their innovations has just absolutely blossomed from just a hundred million dollars about 90 days ago to where it is now perhaps crossing a billion dollars uh live on the stream so uh we're going to go into the details about how rari capital incentivized incentivized all this capital to become deposited into the rari smart contracts uh there's also another story of that vari capital is a protocol generated by three very young individuals at the time

teenagers started yeah 19 and 20 not even able to drink i think some of them might be 21 years old now we're about to check in on those details as well but really overall an astounding story in the world of defy look at this number tick up david we're reviewing this on the rory capital website is 987 million right now creeping up towards a billion dude like i feel old you want to feel old and defy i remember when all of d5 was less than a billion dollars and now here's a single protocol built by a bunch of like 18 19 20 year olds getting ready to pass a billion dollars my my how things have changed the banks are coming to us but we are definitely going to be

talking about this i think it's a fantastic story and that second piece kind of that next generation of protocols that zoomerfi is becoming a term that we want to investigate some more is going to be equally interesting but uh david before we get into some announcements and other things this is the part of the show where i get to show off your fidenza rocks oh my god and talk about sirion who is uh sponsoring bankless shows for the next little bit because they want you to know that they have some nft features that they have added to xerion in particular their mobile app is quite nice if you want to showcase some hot nfts that you bought like these or your mistakes in my case showcase your mistakes but enzo rock number 54. they'd be showing

that out flexing on the dates he's on uh showing the nfts that he's rocking uh anyway xerion is adding these fantastic features um i i love it it's kind of a trophy case not only can you track your d5 portfolio but you can also track your nfts and you can check that out at um xerion.io bankless for more info on that and to get started plug and get started david let's talk about what's new in the world the bankless because we got some stuff cooking guys is a hot six weeks for content i mean it's always hot for content but like i feel like our lineup coming up is particularly hot i think it's the best ever lineup we've ever had

for sure okay after the show dave and i were just discussing uh our agenda for our episode with andrew gang andrew yang we've been trying to get him on the podcast for so long and we he is now finally on his tour trying to spin up his uh third party his forward party and there's a lot of problems about society that both andrew yang and crypto are trying to solve and so andrew yang is trying to solve those problems via reform and we want to see if we can convince him that another way to solve these problems is just by building parallel solutions yeah the the title this episode guys is um

crypto is the way forward is that the title isn't working forward with crypto forward with crypto even better thank you sir we're coming up with the title as we go by the way are you wearing that to the yang podcast i don't know do you think i think you'd like it we haven't talked about this what are we wearing like did we just wear this uh t-shirt do we have to have like i mean just a major politician do we need a suit and tie uh definitely not he never wears a tie he never wears a tie that's his thing well i mean uh we will talk about it afterwards but i feel like you should just be you you just wear that oh that's what that's what andrew yang does andrew yang is just yang so i think he would vibe with that for sure all right let's do that uh

we also had an episode with rune christensen defy og that came out on monday definitely listen that episode all about clean money also about uh ethereum maximalism in a weird way question mark in an interesting way uh david you also had peter pan on layer zero um that is peter peter's real name right fun fact that is peter's real name that is not a pseudonym right and man peter pan was one of the early genesis members of meta cartel uh and really the story of uh peter pan and how meta cartel came to be is one of the most interesting uh anecdotes like interesting subject matters to dissect uh because i actually kind of think it's ground zero for a lot of culture that has been created after

the fact so really a fascinating story there that's on layer zero of course where david has these in-depth interviews asking people personal questions like it's about the people it's about the the cultural layer of ethereum rather than kind of the protocols and the tech that we speak about so often so make sure you catch that as well absolutely yes it definitely uh i love every single layer zero episode we do uh i do but uh this one i think is yeah that's kind of my favorite so far they're all your children they're all my favorite children that's exactly right all right well to kick things off david i gotta ask you the question i always ask on these episodes and that is what is the state of the nation today sir state of the nation is boomered ryan we

are getting boomered because we have jay who's gonna be our youngest guest ever on the bankless podcast coming to tell us all about how three uh ups like of you know starry-eyed zoomer dreamers created a 100 billion dollar protocol on aetherium uh and as we all say uh every single weekly rollup crypto moves so incredibly fast that like it feels like people who came into the in class of 2017 like i was and ryan i think you were class of 2016. we feel like we're a whole generation of defy apps behind right like our d5 apps that we're familiar with are uniswap compound maker but the the new entrants into crypto into defy are just familiar with a different set of applications uh and so there's a new generation coming

to town and we want to tap into that energy and that knowledge and that's what we are going to do here today on the state of the nation lest we fall out of touch with what the kids are doing in the d5 space right david i i do feel like there's this whole new generation of defy apps that is making waves now nfts have caught everyone's attention right now but these defy apps are silently occurring massive amounts of attraction and a value inside of their protocols and i think rory capital is one of them so we are super excited to get into this conversation with jay from rory capital but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible bankless is proud to be supported by uniswap uniswap is a new paradigm in

asset exchange infrastructure instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on ethereum which is what ryan and i call a money robot no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy something brand new in the uni-swap ecosystem is the uniswap grants program is now accepting applications for grants we have been saying this for a while and will say it again dals have money and they are in need of labor if you think that you have something to contribute to the una swap dow apply for a grant to uniswap just look at the size of the uniswap treasury it's almost 3 billion

this mountain of capital is looking for labor do you have something of value to contribute to the uniswap dal no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply for a uni grant at unigrants.org and help steer uniswap in the direction that you think it should go that's exactly what we did to get uniswop to be a sponsor for bankless and you can do the same for your project thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless the era of proof-of-stake is upon us proof-of-stake systems like ethereum terra and solana allow the industry to move away from the hot loud and wasteful proof of work systems and return back to a cottage industry of individual stakers and individual validators and that is what we need to make this industry stay decentralized individuals must play their part in

crypto network validation and that is what lido is here to do lido makes sticking accessible to everyone at the click of a button by delegating your stake to lido's network of nodes you can access the yield offered by proof of sake systems and claim your share of the network transaction rewards do you have 32 eth and want to stake it to ethereum but running a node sounds intimidating or maybe you have less than 32 eth and you need to pool your eth with others so you can access baking yields lido offers a solution for both simply go to lydo.fi choose which assets you want to stake and deposit them to the lido validating network lido is working to make sure proof of stake stays as decentralized as possible and is committed to decentralizing its own validating

network to eventually become a completely permissionless protocol so if you want to stake your eth terra or soul and get liquidity on your stake go to lydo.fi to get started all right guys we are back with jay uh bob not nonnie sorry sorry jay uh you guys have seen 10x in total locked value in the last 90 days so you've gone from like 100 million let me look at the ticker we are at 9 million uh 988 million 988 million at the time of speaking we might hit a billion during this episode um so that's like pretty

good for any defy app right even an og defy app but what's crazy is you guys are like 20 21 years old uh you know and you started this thing from the ground up so we want to hear the story first because i don't think david or myself or the bankless community has actually taken the time to hear the full story of rory capital we published some articles on rari uh like we've been following you guys for a while but take us through the story how did the three of you get together and decide to build a d5 protocol that's now worth a billion dollars tell us that story yeah definitely first of all thank you guys for having me here um to dive into the story i guess it starts with

like the start of my crypto journey right so got in late 2016 early 2017 right as the bull run was just beginning to start and the the crazy thing is that i was flipping all these coins on bittrex and everybody else wanted to do that so they couldn't do it because coinbase only had three assets at the time and then i wrote like an instruction book right on how to go from coinbase to my ether wallet at the time and then to bittrex so that everybody else could trade these coins and of like 20 people i sent it to only three of them were able to do it right there that were actually able to go through all of these steps i was like this is a problem right like let's let's do something about this so started work on a mobile wallet that

made it super easy to interact with a decentralized exchange at the time of 0x just pulling in orders from radar relay and then um basically pushed that out and had a bunch of d5 integrations right d5 was just becoming a thing at the time i think we were one of compound finance's first integrations if not the first integration outside of the compound website itself we were really excited about d5 right so one of somebody who i brought onto the team was this guy jack lipstone who i knew from school we consulted with bain together bain and company and i was like okay you're a smart guy like let's do this right you handle bd i'll handle development and everything else and we we did it and it was a lot of fun right just discovering defy in its in its early stages interacting with all these protocols

and then the bear market hit and we're like okay there goes there goes a lot of our users right there there goes the people who are looking for 100x because they're they're all down and in the red so ended up being acquired by my crypto where we stuck around for about a year right so i was doing strategy d5 stuff jack was doing bd and during our time at my crypto we actually got introduced to this guy david lucid um jack got introduced him through a mutual friend at a party and we we instantly get connected and i'm like holy crap this is a smart guy i was like this is a guy that i know i'm gonna work with at some point and stayed in contact with david ended up leaving my crypto at the start of the pandemic and i was like i want to

i want to do something right like i want to play in d5 i was already obsessive about d5 and it was consuming all my mental capacity i was like i need to do something in this space and that's really how re capital started is we said let's build a yield aggregator right we just we sold a company we're sitting on some cash let's find a place to go and earn yield and let's build our own product that can go earn us yield using the cash that we have on our like in our in our bank accounts so built out the product and as we were designing it we called david right who's whose number we had was like david i have this cool idea let's go and build a yield aggregator right and david had been in crypto for a long time as well he actually built one

of the first decentralized exchanges um and and he was like hell yeah like i'm in so we build we built the first version together had like 350 deposit limit now it cost more than 350 to deposit in and we we got up to like ten thousand dollars in tvl and we're like holy crap this is so cool like we got ten thousand dollars under under our own system and and we've just been iterating since then jay let me tell me what it's like to build a defy app i definitely we we're gonna totally unpack everything about rory but my first question is what it's like to build in d5 while you're in college what's that like yeah honestly i would say it's a lot of

fun right what i think about a lot honestly is the d5 founder life cycle right maybe it's because d5 founders want to be decentralized but the unfortunate reality is that d5 founders don't last more than 18 months right i don't know what it is maybe it's burnout maybe it's that they get so much money that they don't have any more motivation but a lot of them phase out after about 18 months and me jack and david and the rest of the team frequently talk about how do we not fall into this trap right how do we not burn out after 18 months how are we going to stay around for the next decade and iterate on this product and a big piece of it is balance right so yeah maybe i'm in school don't really go to classes but what's more important is that school provides me a balance so

that i can outlive every other person in in d5 today so with you it and all of your friends in college are you like the crypto person that does the weird crypto stuff or like when you explain what you're up to with your friends like do they get it so they don't really get it it's it's the weird person with the weird crypto stuff okay but honestly like when i'm with them i want to just withdraw right like i don't want to talk crypto i'm on my computer like 18 hours a day just doing crypto i want like two hours a day in a day where i can just like withdraw and and be out of crypto because i think that's what will be key in in enabling this project to last longer than others okay so going back to rari you said uh it's a yield aggregator but it's also a

money market like compound or ave how do you explain rari with in relation to all the other defy apps that uh listeners might be familiar with yeah definitely that's a great question so we started rory as a yield aggregator right and we got up to ten thousand dollars tbl within like a month which was really cool um did like this guarded launch approach and then in october of last year we did a liquidity mining campaign right we're a fair launch project we gave out 87 and a half percent of our tokens to depositors across a 60-day period right so we like the founding team has very few tokens relative to most projects and it was after this liquidity mining period that actually we realized okay now that we've stopped distributing our token our tvl

has collapsed right we're just another yield aggregator in a complete red ocean we're in the middle of the stack in terms of people go from metamask to us and we go and deploy capital elsewhere and looking at legacy finance and traditional finance what we know is being in the middle of the stack is a race to zero with fees right and i just didn't want to compete in a landscape like that i did i figured it would i don't want to be in a race towards zero with fees i want to do something actually cool here and not just be competing and iterating and competing for strategies so we said okay what can we do and we said we want to control the entire stack this entire capital funnel of the wallet to the yield aggregator to to wherever we deploy the yield aggregator we said okay where do we

start first and it was on christmas day of last year that i came up with the idea for fuse and basically the idea was let's let's create this isolated this isolated lending and borrowing protocol and the the idea was not only because we said okay we want to control the entire stack but alongside that we actually wanted to be able to lever up on the interest rate tokens that we had from the yield aggregator so you could have leveraged yield aggregation it wasn't possible to go into compound and go and go and ask them to add our tokens because we were still a new project at the time so we said this would be a really cool solution so i remember that night i called david christmas night and i'm like david i just came up with something that could be cool what do you think

about it and we chat about it for two hours and then right sorry christmas dinner wasn't entertaining enough for you so you're thinking about d5 stuff you could do exactly unfortunately i'm always thinking about d5 stuff we can do um and then i call david and um i explained it to him we talk about it for like an hour and then we don't really talk about it for a few days and then david text me like a week later and he's like hey i have a prototype you want to play with it and i'm like holy crap like let's do it and that that was really the start of fuse and since then obviously been iterating on the fuse protocol seeing how can we make this more capitally efficient how can we make this support more assets and how can we make this truly something special and i mean now

now when i think of rari i really think of us as this this open interest rate protocol right the yield aggregator is now just used to supplement the the fuse product where we're actively like iterating on all these products but it all really centers around fuse because fuse is something special right it enables people to borrow and lend any asset in a way that like quite honestly you could never do before in human history right you'd always need some centralization whether it be token holders um your bank whoever it may be the the idea here is like let's enable individuals to do whatever the hell they want nobody should be telling anybody what they can and cannot do is this why jay people are calling this like or maybe you guys are coining this term uh the unit swap of lending because

it's that permissionless because unlike exactly with an ave or a compound where it's sort of you know the pool is what it is maybe governance gets decide token vote gets to decide which assets you know go into it or out uh in this model it's more like uniswap right so like anyone can who has a token you know can create a uniswap market anyone who has a token or a set of tokens can create a fuse lending and borrowing uh market for this right exactly how i like to think about it is like for those who were around in like 2018 2017 it was like you had dexes like radar relay right which had permission permissioned listings right it was the team that was adding to the order book and now with fuse it's it's similar to

how you went from radar relay into products like uniso right and now we're doing the same from compound then ave into something like fuse so uniswap famously is uh good at providing liquidity for quote unquote the long tail of assets and this is something that um actually antonio giuliano from dydx kind of changed my mental model about things where i thought you know unit swaps where all the liquidity is but his his argument was that well for the assets with the most trading volume it's still going to be order book based exchanges but uniswap can have all of the longtail is that kind of the same model with like things like ave and compound where you know maybe ether and

wbtc might be the best assets to put inside of of those money markets and then just borrowing usdc or die on the other end very basic stuff but the long tail of borrowing and lending might be better served by rari is that is that a fair take so i i think it'll be a little bit different for the lending and barring space than the exchange space right for something like compound compound is a feature of the fuse protocol you can go and rebuild compound using our protocol so i don't think like what what what users of compound are using and why they're using it isn't for the protocol itself they're using compound for the risk assessment that the compound labs and the compound token holders are doing to make sure that the pool is safe maybe

using some of the reserves to play a part in that decision making but for us there's there's no efficiency differences in terms of using fuse versus compound there's there's a total world here where compound becomes a fused pool right maybe we can create a fuse pool that matches compounds exact same variables and we can have a bot do that and at that point there becomes no reason not to use fuse and this is infuse's current state right what we're working on now is a bunch of different upgrades that's going to make fuse capitally efficient right more efficient than the current lending and borrowing markets that we offer and that compound and ave offer and that's when it'll get really interesting why so if you can just like copy exactly compounds parameters and deploy it into fuse why

would you use fuse instead of compound what's the what's the incentive there it's more just like that that can happen right and what what what the consequences of that can be are really up to whoever the pool creator is maybe they want to get rid of reserve factors so that way they pay less to borrow in which case somebody can do that if they think it's the right decision but the the end goal there is there shouldn't be anybody telling you what you can or cannot do what you're saying is like basically fuse functionality is kind of a super set of compound and ave right whereas compounded they are just a subset um but but one of the reasons that compound or ave in in particular a compound is maybe the more risk adverse more conservative of the two protocols right you have kind of

you know uh compound which is like you know suit buttoned up thai right and then you have ave which is a little crazier a little bit of party and then you have fuse which is like out there you could do whatever you want on fuse and the compound folks will say that that's because of risk jay right it's like some of these pools are downright dangerous like who knows the assets that might be backing some of these pools and you're really going to uh you know lend against them or you know borrow against them you're going to use this as a as a collateral source what happens when they go to zero what about the risk overall to the system how would you reply to uh to those i guess criticisms or those questions

yeah i i agree with all of that right but it's it's up to the pool crater at the end of the day right if you believe in compound risk model you can copy that into fuse right but the the the real thing here is fuse shouldn't just be the the party on this side fuse covers the entire spectrum and it's up to pool creators to decide where they want to fall on the risk spectrum i totally see fuse pool is collapsing with bad debt and i also see fuse pools thriving with with great markets and the the idea here is let's let free markets really decide and let the pool creators dictate where they want to be on the spectrum and i guess the key point jay is that like one bad pool doesn't spoil the rest exactly a bunch it's just kind of an isolated

thing is that correct yep exactly so your take is like let a thousand pools bloom and yeah some of these will you know be let the market decide uh you know some of these will actually be okay and the market will price that risk in and i presume for some of these pools uh reward in in terms of interest rates accordingly for for the risk that uh an individual is taking kind of lending some assets to this is that correct exactly yeah like you you see some pools like tetranodes own pool right you're you're getting 76 ltv on your own which is absolutely insane but that's also reflected in interest rates being 40 plus percent on average for the past

month on usdc and die so tetranode is paying 40 on his loans i don't know if tetranode himself is but other people are inside of the pool right and most of them are just leveraging up on home and becoming 99. that's super fascinating and like you you also on the on the website though try to do some sort of maybe it's rudimentary maybe it's sophisticated i don't know some sort of risk assessment based on these pools and you have the qualification of verified and unverified pools and i'm assuming the verified pools mean it's been like previously it's kind of white listed like it's gone through your governance process now i believe you've removed the governance process like from that angle so anybody can create a pool so they're kind of i

guess one of the same but but tell me about the the grade letter risk assessment because tetranodes pool and it's not you know tetranode may have created it may be labeled but anyone can deposit anyone can borrow against it um just to clarify but like that gets a an f score on the report card so why does it get an f and what drives that risk assessment versus other pools that get closer to like a c or a b yeah there are a lot of different things that go into the risk assessment and it's something that we're also just evolving with time right as we learn more and more about how these markets work and as we learn more and more about risk and what that looks like in d5 so really what's driving tetranode's pool score down is that there's so much om in

there right and there's almost getting to be too much in there right and what it's happening is it's outweighing the the ohm that is available for liquidity on sushi swap right so that means that for if for some reason there is cascading liquidations and you see 300 400 million dollars of ohm there's a chance that not all of the um can be liquidated in time at a good enough price to keep the lenders of the usdc solvent so the the if there is a liquidation on ohm you're saying that there's so much ohm in rory that it would just wipe out all the liquidity in sushi swap which is a risk and so you have to price that risk into the safety score that's what's going on exactly yeah but like who

determines that safety score is it is it subjective no so it's completely public we have like an algorithm that does if you google ferrari risk score i believe it should come up or something like that um ferrari safety score is what we call it and essentially like what it it's looking at so many different variables right now and i don't even know if the latest one is up to date um but but it's it's really cool and one one thing that i will add is like this is our front end right this is this is rory capital's front end but on the on the back end right risk scores don't affect anything it's just something that we add on the front end same with verified versus unverified pools so you go to an another front end ferrari something like market.xyz and yeah they borrowed our risk scores

but at the end of the day the white the white listed or verified versus unverified pools these are all just things that we're adding to the front end so all of these don't really mean anything on chain and they don't affect the lending and borrowing like interactions itself i am glad you added though like at least as kind of a placeholder and to your point somebody else could create a different front end with a different risk score assessment that's more accurate that's better a better model and all of these things but i am glad that you you added at least this kind of a placeholder on your front end because i what i find is the tricky thing about um i i guess this is just human beings is we're really shitty at assessing risk like you just can't do it we see like juicy yields like 70 yield

and we want to ape into that right like oh yeah 70 yield like what could go wrong but what we don't look at is the the true thing we should be looking at is risk adjusted yield right so what does that yield after you factor in the risk of the pool and all of these things that can happen like factor figuring out risk and doing risk assessment that's the hard work it's very easy to generate a yield number the hard work is to actually do the assessment of risk and once you do that you might find out that that pool is like negative in terms of risk-adjusted reward or or maybe it's only five four percent or ten percent but um people don't do that particularly when when d5 is moving so fast we're just like going from farm to

farm to most attractive yield most attractive yield so i understand that your protocol is not a risk protocol but at some level if people in d5 are going to make good decisions we need to factor in the risk side of the equation as well i don't know if you have anything to add to that no i think you got most of it right it's like i i think that most farms just like in during d5 summer the risk to reward just doesn't make sense right and and it's really scary to see people aping in mortgaging their home to go and ape in and unfortunately one or i guess fortunately and unfortunately is that our platform is now being used by real people who are using it for real-world use cases right people are borrowing

against their their dollar amount to go pay for mortgages on their home right that's really really cool but it's also really scary right so as as the as the protocol as creators and as the protocols founder you're you're right on it we need to inform users of the risks so that they understand so that it doesn't affect their real their real life so i'm looking at the interest rates being offered by um yearn compound and ave for uscc right now when urine's clocking in at six point uh 6.0 percent uh compounds coming in at just below point seven uh three percent obvi is a little bit lower than that dydx four point seven uh five percent pretty good numbers when we compare them

to tradify but if you compare them to ferrari rari's clocking in from what i see on the uscc pool at 23.2 percent which is meaningfully different than all the other interest rates that i just listed off where is that all of that interest coming from why is it so high on rari yeah so the interest rates are coming from us depositing into different fuse pools on the platform right we don't interact with any external or at least we're rolling out an update that's going to remove us from interacting with any external protocols right i think it's too much risk to be interacting with them and basically we're going to keep our technical risk internally right we know our code base best we know how our product runs best instead of increasing

our attack vectors to hundreds of different protocols and the cool thing about this is fuse also offers the best interest rates right as you can see by what you listed all that all that this usdc or dye or whatever is doing is it's just being reallocated into various different fuse pools and one interesting thing that we're actually just getting audited right now or at least starting next week is we're going to create a vault factory contract right so what that means is any asset that's inside of the fuse platform the diffused lending and borrowing platform we're going to have a vault for right so that means if you're sitting on snx if you're sitting on mkr whatever and it's inside of fuse we're gonna have a vault that you can deposit into which will enable you to it'll automatically redirect between

different yield sources which gets really interesting because now our vault is not only delivering the highest interest rate but we have a vault for every single asset so jay i want to ask that this question because as you were talking i was i was looking at this chart here from uh from our friends at d5 pulse here and this is a chart of a total locked value inside of ferrari capital and you can see as you guys started i guess you know last year where this was just sort of a yield protocol at the time i guess maybe the 24th of december where you called david we're like hey i got a new idea you're at about 10 million in total locked value inside of rari right and then we kind of see uh you know some some up and down but you know no major

moves until about uh you know the summer of of this year where you're at 93 million total locked value uh very respectable and then we see this i have i want to know what the hell happened on september 4th we're in september in that that time range because you went from about like 180 million locked uh inside of rory to now where we're on the the precipice of going to one billion dollars and this is in the past like 45 days this this like curve up the spike up this mount everest basically has been climbed and so

what happened in the last 45 days to add all of this capital and all of this liquidity inside of rory capital usually when i see chart like this i'm like oh okay they must have dialed up the yield farming you know some something crazy is going on what happened help explain this to us yeah so there's there's three things in my head that really explain this the first thing i'll start with this isn't one of the three points is we don't have any liquidity incentives right we aren't paying for depositors we aren't paying for borrowers we might start doing that soon but really how i view the product right now is we're still in search of product market fit right that chart kind of shows product market fit but i still think that there's work that can be done and by adding liquidity incentives it blurs

our ability to really check how the product is doing so the three things in my mind are first ohm going up right we are the first and we were the first and really only place for a long time that you could go and borrow and yeah borrow against your own right so that created the entire nine nine meme and people were people were doing really cool stuff with their own inside the fuse platform the second thing is that we were pretty we started about two months ago being really aggressive about onboarding other other pools into the fuse platform right other other assets that are long tail assets that you couldn't get anywhere else stuff like the badger pool where you could borrow against your badger

positions or the vesper puller you could do the same with vesper or the nftx pool where you could borrow against your your punks or even short punks right all of these things we've been pretty aggressive about in onboarding capital as such and one cool thing is like we've we're always like talking about how do we get counter-side liquidity in addition fey and frax are minting from their from from their sources directly into different fuse pools and then the last thing in my opinion and this is a a newer thing is the creation of permissionless pools right we we just pushed that out we've been sitting on that feature for a little bit now we wanted to iterate with all these different um different partners first and now anybody can go and start their own pool and i think that between these

three different things it's it's led to that massive uh mount everest as you call it uh jay you talked about uh collateralizing punks which is the erc20 derivative out of nftx that's supposed to track the floor floor price of crypto punks have you guys thought about actually leveraging uh erc 721s directly as collateral is this a subject matter you guys have discussed yes we've discussed it at length one thing that we actually haven't announced publicly but i guess i'll say it now is we're actually working on unit swap v3 lp positions as collateral i think that's going to be really exciting because nobody else can offer it in the way that we can right if if ave or compound want to offer it

they'll need to go and get some standardized token to do right it's something like a gelato network which automatically rebalances in unit swap v3 we already have a gelato pool though so they can go and do it if they want but we already have it um what is even more interesting is that unit swap v3 positions as you guys know they're custom right it's it's you you get a custom one for each for each position so you can't go and add that to a general pool like compound but here inside of the fuse platform that's what fuse is meant for these isolated markets where risk is created just for each of these pools so let's say somebody like tetra node is going and supplying five million dollars into the spell eath pool on uniswap v3 at a very tight range he can go take that nft put it inside a

fuse borrow up a bar against it maybe take out a levered position on that and that's when things get really interesting and show off the power of these isolated markets in a way that really nobody else is even capable of doing right now things get very very interesting at that point yeah exactly and and to me as a punk holder uh this might get interesting because once you start building out the infrastructure to have these customized erc721s it's just a few more steps down the line before you can actually collateralize actual nfts and if there's one thing that like i will speculate on has product market fit it's nft djinns leveraging their nft portfolios as collateral yep

david it's going to get really cool i would never risk my punk i would never risk your punk to the pawn shop and just you know only after there it's a 100 million dollar or excuse me a million dollar floor then then we can definitely talk uh real quick before we get to sponsors in the the next subject um you were talking a little bit about the roadmap j anything else in the roadmap like layer two plans uh multi-chain strategy like you're doing anything other collaborations with other protocols got us through some quick hits on the roadmap yeah so there's there's a lot of stuff that's going to be coming out over the next few months um we have market xyz which is like a sub task force within the rari community they're going to be deploying on polygon we'll be ourselves

deploying on arbitrom optimism zk sync we'll get it all but we will be waiting a little bit because as i mentioned we want to iterate on l1 ethereum it's what we know it's what we do best right really try and get product market fit then we'll turn on liquidity incentives probably sometime soon once once we've really been cracked and between liquidity incentives deploying everywhere it'll get really interesting beyond that obviously we're going to do a ve rgt style thing similar to what curve does and they're going to be directing gauges which will direct liquidity mining rewards into each of the pools um what else are we working on we're working on a lot of different things right now we have a new redesign coming up which is going to be really really cool um and then the thing that i'm most excited

about is this mechanism called plug-ins and basically what a plug-in enables is when you're starting a new fuse pool the biggest issue is attracting lenders into the fuse pool right because new lenders have a lost opportunity cost because they aren't getting paid anything to lend until somebody's borrowing right so if i'm sitting on a million dollars i'm not going to go and lend into a new pool because i'm i could be earning interest on my million dollars elsewhere so what a plugin enables is unallocated capital from one place can be sent somewhere else so it creates a connection between the different fuse pools because now if i'm starting new fuse pool let's say 132 it i can send all of the usdc from fuse pool 132 into fuse pool six right and

suddenly that that usdc that i'm on boarding into my pool is earning interest and then that sets a base rate for for the pool itself which i think is going to be a really interesting dynamic when you think about it like that it gets even more interesting when you think about it in in outside of the fuse platform so the first plugins will be for directing capital from fuse pulls to fuse pools but you can do it with anything right you can have a fuse pool with a plug-in that goes and directs capital to an amm or to a staking mechanism on vesper or even like ohm is technically the first use case of plug-ins but it's not really like clear that it's a plug-in on the back end but when you start connecting the puzzle pieces building on these legos it's gonna get really really cool

yeah i i'm loving everything you're doing and i'm i just have to wonder how you have the time to do all of this as a as a part-time student as well and uh this is uh jay and team like cranking it out while they're still in school i can't wait until you're like full time on this and this is uh yeah i guess the only thing you think about you guys are building so much so quickly i think there's more to unpack here and jay when we come back after the sponsor break we want to talk about this uh this new cohort maybe of defy applications what some people are calling zoomer five but this is like the the class of 2021 all of these new d5 protocols that are emerging the the ohms of the world the olympus dows of the world maybe

alchemics maybe we'd throw them in there maybe this new abracadabra protocol we throw them in there i want to talk about them because i think they have a lot of traits in common that defy investors and followers of the bankless program can all learn from and benefit from this new wave of defy so guys we will be right back with jay to talk about that but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible when you shop for plane tickets you probably use kayak expedia or google to compare ticket prices so why would you limit yourself to just one exchange when you trade crypto when you make your trades you want to make sure that you're getting the best possible price on your trade and that you aren't paying high gas costs that you could have otherwise avoided that's why you should be using

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gemiini.com go bankless all right everyone we are back with jay from irari capital and we want to kick off the second half of the show picking jay's brain as somebody who is uh i mean we're all we're all young people here in crypto and in d5 largely which it definitely skews young but rory capital also skews young inside of an industry that skews young and uh especially when it comes to 2020 building in 2020 after we've gone through the bear market after defy summer has set its precedent we are now into the era of what some people are calling defy generation 2.0 or perhaps we're calling it zoomerfi we're actually trying to figure out what

the hell this thing actually is that's happening but there seems to be a new phenomenon of defy apps that are coming onto the scene rory capital being one of them olympus dow also being one of them as well so jay what's your opinion on what this thing is is it zoomerify is it just defy 2.0 what's going on here yeah i think it's i think it's d5 2.0 right it's like the the people have understood d5 1.0 and they've actually taken i i think d5 1.0 didn't crack economics properly and how i think about d5 2.0 is d5 1.0 with interesting tokenomics right some of them a lot of them probably

aren't going to work a lot of them are probably going to die with stupid emissions and stuff that just doesn't make sense but what i find most interesting about this is that people are actually iterating on incentives in a very very interesting way right and that's that's what crypto enables that's what defy enables is these interesting incentive loops that we couldn't ever do in the traditional world so i'm just excited to see to see what happens with this with this idea of d5 2.0 i do think that it is skewing much to it to a younger age compared to defy 1.0 i guess um but nonetheless it's interesting to see yeah what's interesting is like um ben one of our analysts uh he's actually still a college kid you know graduates uh you know this summer he is so into this d52 2.0 stuff like like he keeps us

informed with what's going on because like david and i are in this industry all the time but like there are these new protocols that are doing all of these great things and these are the the protocols like um olympus dow and like rory that ben gravitates towards right so it's also it's not just necessarily about like age as in when you were born it's also about like when did you enter crypto right what's your class right i feel like people who are entering d5 now class of 2020 class of uh 2021 they are very into these new protocols but but the one thing you would mention because i think there are a few i guess patterns that we see in this new cohort this uh zoomer fire defy 2.0 um the first thing to to maybe talk about in some more

depth is token economics which you mentioned right and so um i guess defy summer of 2020 is when tokens for defy uh actually got introduced you know most famously with with compounds sort of the first yield farm ever and then gradually other tokens what is this new you know i guess iteration on token economics i think we understand in more detail um olympus dow and maybe what they're doing with their token economics is that sort of a like is that a prime example of what you mean by token economics and rory capital it seems like you guys aren't doing very much yet with

your token economics although you did do this fair launch which is totally different than most d5 protocols in previous cohorts of like 87 out to your community which is like kiddos for that i also wonder if you like if you have any regrets about that or if you feel like that was the total right move but tell me about token economics what is different in this new class yeah i think that there's a lot of things right it's first of all this idea of pcv was introduced right i think pcv is a very very groundbreaking change for for d5 in general and that's protocol controlled value exactly right i i think that the way that fey uses it the way that olympus

now uses it really that projects are now accumulating their own lp that's that's a whole new dynamic that's a whole new primitive in itself that olympus and and i guess faye to a certain extent introduced with each other um beyond that i would say one of the one of the more interesting trends that we noticed is in d5 summer we saw the rise of anons right the rise of a nonce has led to the rise of innovative token models right because it's scary right somebody like compound labs can't do nearly as much as somebody like um daniel from spell right and it's it's gonna be interesting to see what happens it's going to be interesting to see if any of it's sustainable from a regulatory perspective or if or if this this outpaces what whatever the regulation does do right so i think it's a

combination of all these different things this this idea of all of these all of these new concepts such as pcv floating around combined with the flexibility of being a non has just led to massive innovation in the space and and you're right right with rory we haven't been super aggressive about tokenomics um we we i like i think vergt is going to be our first time touching the token contract since since our initial launch besides for the move to on-chain governance and i'm really excited about it and i'm really excited to continue iterating on it but at the same time it's like we also live in the united states and we're doxxed individuals and what we can and cannot do is very different than most other projects that have run as an and on team yeah that's interesting you're not you're not like

scoopy triples i guess that is still kind of running uh and on there like back to that other question do you think that um 87 percent fair launch the community was the right move do you have any regrets about that yeah so i think we launched at a time when that was the norm right that was defy summer and i i think that we just went with the we went with the winds there but now you look back at d5 summer and of maybe 50 projects that launched during that time period maybe five or six of them are still around and of the five or six of them that are still around maybe three of them are actually like innovating and it is worrisome i think that in order to do a a fair launch of that caliber you need to have

a team that really sees the long-term vision right and and for us right looking back at 12 and a half percent what what i think when when i see it and like if i saw another team i was gonna do the same i was like you guys need to have a plan right and quite honestly we didn't have a plan when we did it right this this was more just like let's see what happens right like let's let's have some fun with this and if i could go back yes i would probably change it right i'd want to have more team incentives i'd want to have longer term incentive structures but like that's easy to say what matters now is how what we're doing to fix it what we're doing to iterate on it and what we're doing with the team to make sure that everybody's properly incentivized

for the long term we have a lot of ideas here right we just minted more tokens which is just being sat on by the dao i i don't know what the the future here holds but what i can tell you is that the team we've committed them long term they're all super excited about the protocol and for reasons beyond just financial gain which is what's really important to me right when when talking to new contributors into the team it's not just about okay what is the token worth right now i hate it when people ask me that i hate talking about token price or anything related to that i want to know who's actually passionate about building a permissionless lending and borrowing system and who's actually excited about getting rid of the power that the banks have and making it so that yeah you can take out a loan if

you're in africa if you have like underprivileged needs or whatever the case may be and that's the future that we're working towards another thing about this uh zoomer fire or defy 2.0 cohort is um you guys all tend to um kind of work together a little bit and your successes are shared right so you mentioned hey that huge increase in total locked value in rari is partially due to our collaboration with um oh the ohm token right from olympus dow part of the same cohort which i find really interesting you know something else i suppose that that's interesting is some of the ideas i guess and some of the concepts coming out of d5 2.0 seem very risky to like the established d5 protocols right and

that's why i do think that this uh this zoomer phy category holds a little bit because like you know d5 baby boomers you know they look at their their their maker and their and their compound and their ave and we've taken years to get these models right and like the risk is you know we can't screw up because if we do the entire like outside traditional finance world is going to say see we knew it would all break down and here is zoomerfi and they are out there and they are like you know making things happen forging new new uh territory but also taking on more risk it feels very out there and feels very risky to the established d5 protocols the world so there's also this

characteristic do you think that's accurate are you guys like taking more risk are you guys more bleeding edge or is that just what every generation always says about the next generation right uh you know bitcoiner said this about defy in the early days too what's your take yeah i agree with everything you said right there in d5 2.0 there is this mentality of build fast and break fast right but i think that's not a bad thing right i think that's what's going to lead to innovation right if everybody's holding back and not really pushing the barrier of what is allowed or what isn't allowed we're not going to actually see cool being built so to me it's it's yeah maybe there will be some people

some projects that collapse and yes people will inevitably lose money which is an unfortunate reality but it's at the it's it's just a it's it's a cost of building a better financial system and hypothetically something even better like even more than just a financial system than we have today jay that is the argument though is more along the lines of hey we we are in an industry that is is more like medical devices right it's it's that important you know a smart contract bug a mistake 100 million dollars could be wiped out in just like this and that can affect and it can hurt a lot of people so that has been the argument for not move fast and break things but more like make sure we get the right and like

don't let bad things happen and you know make sure all of our protocols are double audited we're you know we're going to the nth degree to make sure that these things are stable and secure um you kind of this this new class sort of rejects that a little bit and you know but do you think there's any merit there like rari was uh hacked at one point in time earlier i know this was earlier in the protocol's existence but what did you learn from that experience and do you still give some i guess credence to those that are urging caution in d5 protocols yeah i it's interesting right so zooming out i think that there's there's a spectrum

again here right of this risk and i think what's important is that consumers are aware of the risk right they know that compound has been around for longer and has achieved a longer lindy than something like rory's fuse today but i think that there needs to be room for growth for both there needs to be like the people who are iterating fast breaking fast and there also needs to be room for the people who are taking the slower approach and what's important is that people are aware of both of these right people can choose which whatever that they're more comfortable with i don't think anybody should be dictating which or which shouldn't like should should be existing as ferrari specifically and to touch on this idea of that the hack that happened earlier this year it was really tough right like that that was a really tough

time ferrari community i think it was really cool though that that we all came together right the day after the hack we organized a town hall to talk about solutions over 300 people came to that town hall i believe which is just like it highlights how powerful the rari community really is how we all came together in this time of need and i think that the protocol left that much stronger than it went into that which is really really interesting right in in how the team actually responded and how contributors even not part of the team and the community members responded to that event it was really awesome and what we learned is security is number one right that should always be the case right everything we ship is audited what what

we did what we did right after that is we went to quan stamp who was our primary auditor we said we want to get on a one-year retainer with you guys we were the first protocol to do this now every single piece of code that we launched we have a spreadsheet with quantum that tracks every single line of code that we've touched they review it before we can even submit and or push it live and we've also we've also committed with a few other independent auditors who are actively looking at our code base every single day right because i never want to be in that position again when i wake up and i wake up to a bunch of calls it's like something's happening right now right and that's that's my nightmare and we're going to do everything we can to to make sure that it doesn't happen

again so there is a an interesting progression to discuss when we talk about defy apps the development of defy apps and their relationship with risk and i do want to emphasize that um what jay just said here is that you know while maybe rory might be more risky than the current defy apps let's really put things into perspective just because we are more risky doesn't mean that we aren't taking things seriously risk is still first and foremost um but uh you know we started this whole d5 thing back in like 2018 with maker dao and maker dow had the most conservative culture when it came to development and same thing with compound and then ave got a little bit more risky but not really

and so really to me this whole zoomer slash defy 2.0 phenomenon is really just that like we have these risk-averse protocols we have this risk-averse foundation and what would rari be if it didn't really already have assets like die or other money markets out there right so it actually is the time towards leaning in towards like some of these riskier ventures because as of just a few minutes ago rory capital crossed a billion dollars locked in defy so you know that something is working it did it did yeah ryan on the screen david do you have some sound effects for this this is pretty memorable oh gosh uh i don't

i don't think i do oh no it's only music it's only music i don't i have the right sound effects but but jay congratulations my man on crashing a billion dollars in d5 so clearly the strategy is is working out how does it feel to have a billion dollars in the smart contracts scary good answer after we just discussed risks well congrats to the team very good thank you so jay where does uh where does rory go from here where when 10 billion locked in defy locked in rory and how does that happen yeah i think it's only a matter of time right what we're focused on right now is composability supporting more assets all of this like crazy stuff right

supporting being able to take your token mac positions put it inside a fuse lever up on that unit swap v3 lp positions as collateral all these crazy things you should be able to put inside a fuse and this is obviously just building for the day when we can support real world assets where we can make a difference in the real world itself that that day is not here yet right that's going to take some time so in the meantime we're going to crack d5 we're going to get all of d5 inside a fuse and then we'll get the real world inside of fuse one day i've got a question about how you guys approach regulation because if if i were in your position with my disposition back when i was 19 or 20 i wouldn't have even known about regulation i kind of would have just like done what i wanted

to do and then realized i got into trouble after the fact when when did regulation come on your guys's radar and how did you guys decide to navigate that water those waters yeah all very good questions so regulation's always been a discussion now ari right um and i would say my personal philosophy here is that d5 really has consumed my life at this point right i spend so many hours behind my computer talking to people on twitter talking to people on telegram right just thinking about d5 in general i'm always thinking about d5 right so it's like d5 has taken over my life it's taken over my financial accounts right 99 of my net worth is probably in d5 tokens right now that whatever regulation is happening i'm here to fight that fight right because

d5 really is my life so when when you have people like the defy education fund all of these political action committees that are being together it's not like oh yeah the big guys got it now i feel that it's my responsibility to be participating in those discussions and to help construct the narrative in the regulation narrative to make sure that our our interests are looked out for as a community and as an industry so i would say regulation is top of mind and we're doing everything that we can to make sure that we're we're on the right side of history here and then i have an another question with regarding to the whole i think actual zoomer generation actual gen z not zoomer phi i want to draw a line in the sand not talking about zoomer five

anymore i want to talk about zoomers and their relationship with crypto uh what is that like what's it like to be uh from generation z in crypto and is it easier for you to explain crypto to your friends than it is for us because for me it's still really really hard so like what's that like what is this zoomer stance towards crypto not just for the people that are already in crypto but for your friends who are still looking at it from the outside yeah i think that there are a couple different pieces obviously you have all the people that go and trade dogecoin on robin hood and call themselves deep into crypto because they study the charts every day um but the the people who are wanting to understand defy there's a lot of them right now now defy is really getting into getting into a very

interesting place part of it's speculation and financially driven part of it's just driven out of pure curiosity and one interesting thing that i've learned is just explaining it to them maybe isn't harder or easier than than anybody else outside of gen z but but it's a different type of explanation right and this was the same case for me as like working on ambo the mobile wallet it was we were in compounds office right showing lessen or the integration and the button wasn't blend right i didn't know what lend meant at the time it was earn interest right so rephrasing and redoing d5 from the perspective of somebody who maybe doesn't have traditional finance experience it becomes a very very interesting perspective to tailor the

narrative too and i think it's a massive market that's bound to that's bound to enter into the crypto space and it's already happening today right you walk around this campus and people are talking about nfts people are talking about d5 and it's broken it's i think we've crossed the chasm and this is why i'm also hopeful on a regulation perspective is now ten percent of americans own crypto right this is becoming something that is mainstream it will only increase that percentage and we're at the point where we just make up so much and it'll increase at an exponential rate so when you were walking around campus like you at the start of the show talk to how you are like the crazy crypto person that no one really understands but do they know that there's a billion

dollars locked in the application that you built like do they understand the implications of that i think that there's some of them i know but i i try to be i try to be a kid when i'm on campus if that makes sense fair enough no it definitely does so you can only do college once so jay well said man all of this uh super insightful i i guess um i gotta say i'm pretty bullish on uh jen you know the second generation of d5 that's spinning up i'm pretty bullish zoomerfi the energy you guys exude is phenomenal and you guys are building new more innovative things as david said we already have the more conservative d5 protocol so those are already a fallback for us and it's great

to see the energy the experimentation like i can feel from you that you are just like all in this industry and you're going to spend the next couple of decades here and so there's also going to be uh future generations right ferrari is certainly not the last generation to come there will be a third generation and a fourth generation and fifth generation and i i guess i'm curious for you is what do you think we have left to build in d5 right we've got some of these basic money lego primitives uh built but what needs to come next and what are you looking forward to the most that's that's a good question i i think that there's like

there's so much left to build right zooming out d5 still caters to the 0.1 percenters right the the d5 users who maybe gotten earlier the bitcoin users who somehow find their way into d5 but at the end of the day we're still catering towards a lot of speculative users we're still catering towards people who just want leverage or to go and do stuff without selling right which is cool and all but it's not the future that i want to be building so i think the future that i look forward to is is one where this trickles into the real world one where our applications are actually being used for real life things and with real life consequences right because at the end of the day how i view it and or how how i

think other people in the industry view it and just from discussions with them is it's almost like d5 right now is a game right so when does this game really make its way into reality and and start making a monumental difference there we always talk about banking the unbanked really all we've done is just rebank the banks i'm looking forward to products hopefully in the next cohort of users and if not we'll be actively iterating on this future where we can actually deliver on that future of under of banking the unbanked that's awesome jay to to close us out what are some other i guess second generation d5 projects that you really like and that we should be taking a look at in the bankless community yeah all of the usual suspects that we talked about on the show definitely

obviously the olympus down the omes insider fuse love them um alka makes just super super cool the positive project right just something that wasn't possible in traditional finance taking a d5 a defy native a defy native approach to just everything and it's stuff like that that gets me excited just stuff that isn't possible in the real world stuff that is built on composability and it's just exciting stuff do you like abracadabra are they in the the cohort been hearing a lot of yeah recently definitely i am i'm a big fan of abracadabra um obviously there there is some like weird overlap between fuse and abracadabra but holistically i'm i'm just excited about all of this new and just iterations and and innovations

in general there we are guys this has been jay talking about ferrari protocol jay thanks so much for guiding us uh you guys are doing some exciting things congrats on the one billion locked inside of rari that is absolutely massive um give uh give our congratulations to the rest of the team at rory 2 and to the entire community uh anything else you want to say before we uh we head out here um i'll shout out my mom and dad hi um love you um but beyond that no thank you for having me are they into the d5 by the way not really i don't think they understand what i do to be completely honest i'm still trying to explain it to them i hear you on that one all right guys uh

this has been bankless state of the nation of course risking disclaimers none of this has been financial advice absolutely none of it eth is risky defy is risky rari capital is risky as well you could definitely lose what you put in but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence we recommend joining our daily newsletter podcast and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your bankless experience

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