The PumpFun Episode | Austin, Jim & Myles

Transcript

and it's mostly just been a problem of like we don't know what to do and so people just do nothing and uh people aren't pushing the bounds and I think like Clarity will bring a lot of actually value to this space because it will allow people who want to build legitimate things to build legitimate things uh people just want to like a lot of people want to build cool things and that's like the fundamental nature is they just want to build cool things and be rewarded for it um but it's been in difficult to do that these days uh and hopefully will get easier hey everyone quick disclaimer before we get into today's episode nothing said on bell curve is a recommendation to buy or sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show

are solely our opinions not Financial advice our guest and I may hold positions in the companies funds or projects discussed all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve um you got some regulars here miles and Jim guys welcome back we just did an episode on go to market the other week and uh welcome to the Pod for the first time Austin Adams um Austin welcome very exciting to be here looking forward to yapping about all things uh what were you Ying about reunited and it feels so good Mike I love the energy Jim that's why you get the repeat invites you bring you bring this ass of the energy my man uh I was gonna sing it but I felt like I don't know I'm I'm I haven't warmed up

my vocal cords enough to say okay cool well by the end of the episode then you can sing a Sol a song once you're locals are nice and warmed up you've done your uh D mes or whatever uh okay guys this this is going to be a great episode we're going to be doing this is we'll call this the pump fun episode but really we're going to be talking mostly about meme coins and some interesting angles on dex's RIT large in crypto overall um which is part of the reason um we brought Austin on here and Austin maybe before we get into it could you just give a super quick background about yourself um and what you're doing at wetstone yeah so I'm I'm Austin I'm the founder of wetstone research we're sort of building things to uh accelerate the future of onchain markets like

tokenization and new protocols built on top of onchain markets I guess previously I I used to be a protocol researcher at Unis swap lab so very very into the deck space I did a lot of like Unis swap V4 and uni chain work so uh very opinionated on of all all things decks uh so it's sort of a good episode for me oh congratulations by the way your baby launch today we're recording this on Friday the 31st and V4 is now live so thank you I have a fun story about that uh my first day at Unis swap which was like three and a half years ago or something maybe four it was I walked into a meeting with about uh Unis swap before and we were like it's going to be out in a year baby uh and uh that was a very

different room uh and we it was it was a very fun one uh the design is a lot different than then but uh I remember being like Oh yeah we're gonna have this out in a year uh and now it's out today so very exciting can you actually give us sense I don't want to deril us too much here but just the Quantum of um you know hooks that we can be expect so maybe just super quick 20 second overview of what V4 is and then you know what should we be expecting in terms of the amount of hooks like if you had to guess that are launching this coming year yeah I think it's a good question so uh I think that Unis swap V4 is much more of a platform than Unis swap V3 was so Unis swap V3 I think was like a one siiz fits-all model

and Unis swap V4 enables people to build like really really customized deck Solutions uh very simply uh with very little lines of code uh and sort of build inside Unis swap before instead of building like on top of Unis swap V3 any V3 developer will tell you that like that was not fun um and how many hooks will we see I think we'll see a lot of them and I think we'll continue to see a lot of them we'll probably see more next year uh something we saw with Unis swap B3 was that like no one built anything for like a year because it just took a lot of time to understand what was happening and then as people internalized what it looked like they uh they built a lot of really interesting things uh After People internalized the differences between them so I I suspect

we'll see that here which is like very a few things that are interesting and then as people sort of figure out the solution space they'll build really cool stuff nice um yeah it would be really interesting to check and I uh not to self-promote here but we did a whole uh season on dex's actually with Dan Robinson as a co-host and V4 was something that we talked quite a bit about then and you know it's funny even you know I know you Des described it as more of a platform but I didn't really realize for UNIS swap the the idea is always the design philosophy has always been viewing it as a platform so kind of a Natural Evolution right before you guys started but um all right so uh this podcast we're going to do not to do an intellectual discussion around meme coins but we're going to do a little bit

of an intellectual discussion around meme coins but I also want to give a descriptor of some of the Dex AR Dex infrastructure that exists today that has supported memes thus far and probably Mak sense to start at pump fun um so Austin can you just give us a you know realized actually to front run an episode you and I did with Jesse Walden that's going to come out um in a little bit um I realized when we did that episode I didn't really know a lot of the mechanics underneath the hood had a very high level understanding of how pump fund worked but can you just give us an overview of how pump fun actually works and maybe if you could editorialize a little bit about why you think it's been so massively successful in terms of capturing the market for memes yeah I think it's just made it

really simple right I think like at the end of the day like when we think about other token launching platforms that came four pump uh that's like fiord Foundry uh the balancer sort of lbps things unit swap V2 and unit swap V3 in some sense like they were really really hard to use and they continue to be very hard to use uh and so like un swap V2 V3 you had to like bootstrap the liquidity necessary for FJ Foundry you'd need uh a bunch of the liquidity up front so you like 10 15% of the liquidity I think pump sort of just said like look let's just uh let's let's just put things in a pool and let people buy them and they figure it out later and made it very very very very simple uh I think like I

I I actually think we'll sort of see just like Unis swap had that the sort of swap uh widget that everyone thinks about I think we'll see something similar with pump where they have that like very very simple launch uh style and so I think we'll see that in the future and I I think where pump sort of shined was um just being the first place very simple very fast very easy to use and that sort of had this like knock on effect of people being there very early b people then the wealth effects and uh the attention going to the earliest possible easiest place and then that compounding over time into sort of being where people go to launch and go to look

at and perhaps it's not the most efficient system but it works extremely well and users understand it very deeply and that has led to like a lot of the problems with a protocol like not really mattering because I essentially like retail blasts enough capital in for it to get over it all right so this is probably a good time to describe what is happening underneath the hood in pump fun and if you could just describe just the overall mechanics and even just give us a little bit of a review of uh like what a bonding curve is and how that actually works in practice and then maybe the part where um once the liquidity gets maxed out on pump fund they sort of transfer to radium as well just kind of walk us through step byep the whole process

yeah so there's like a sort of initial supply of the token that that pump fund places in their own bonding curve I I I believe they have control over that bonding curb sort of custodial and I users can sort of come in exchange uh with sort of just like a simple Buy sell mechanic um and these tokens are sort of placed in the pool and any user anywhere in the world can call buy or sell send in the appropriate amount of salana to get out the appropriate amount of eth or sorry not e uh the appropriate amount of token that they want to get out uh and once they sort of sell enough tokens uh there's no more tokens in the pool and they have to uh uh the pump team actually has to like trigger a migration

from their bonding curve to radium so they have to take all the liquidity out move it Bond it against a certain amount of the tokens and then place it in Radium so under the hood it's simply just like a a buy sell mechanic where I believe they have like sort of like a back end or something that looks at the uh amounts in amounts out that they need and then once they reach the end price according to like the bonding curve they have they take the liquidity out and migrate it um a and this is sort of all done custodial and um pretty pretty simple and fast for them and I think that was done in this way because it it's very easy and it was very easy to get to Market and I think they were very focused on being the first and the

fastest to Market uh so they made it as easy as possible to for them to develop uh it was especially like I think people kind of forget that like early on when pump started it was salana was very very very different back then it was like all close Source there was very little developers and I think they sort of brought in the Resurgence um and so in some sense like that they're sort of like a relic of that time uh the design that they have and I but at the same time it's worked very well for them so it's been very powerful for them to get to Market so fast and be easy to use today's episode is brought to you by Ledger the global leader in digital asset security celebrating 10 years of innovation Ledger is trusted by 7 million users secures 20% of the world's

digital assets and Remains the most secure Hardware wallet for your crypto and logins follow the link in this episode's show notes to grab your Ledger today all so I've got a couple more following questions and Jim and Miles jump in here wherever you guys want either questions FR atin or opinions or whatever but a couple couple of questions just in terms of so why I guess my first question here is why does pump fund not just um like why migrate everything to radium why not just vertically integrate there and create their own pools um and then there's also a I'm pretty sure that they burn the soul that gets swapped for the original inventory right and I actually saw they burned something like $500 million worth of salana which is pretty crazy what's the reason for the burn there yeah so I it's actually crazy at I I they I think

they've burned more soul I think they like made a salon a deflation ER in some sense uh by just burning the amount of soul that they have which is kind of crazy um and money money yeah it's the OG ultrasound money by just burning coins you know I get it the reason they burn the the lp tokens is they want to ensure that there exists liquidity uh to buy and sell in so if you have like a full range uh constant product Market maker position there always exists a price at which users can sell their tokens at no matter where you're at uh and no matter how much has been sold on the pool there always exists a price uh and so they burn the liquidity because or so they're not like burning the salana per se they're burning uh the salana and the tokens

they're bonded together in sort of like a Unis swap V2 constant products Market maker style position and they burn the lp tokens that control those positions uh that's actually what they're burning is those LP tokens and they do that so that like no one can take them ever and the liquidity always exists um I I have some you know complications or I don't not a huge fan of those decisions but I get why they did it was very simple it's very easy to ensure if no one can touch it um and and so I think that's why they they do the they do it that way was just to be as easy as possible and I forgot what your other question was it was around why they've you know haven't like vertically integrated more um say like Services right so the first one being this

partnership with radium and it's you know maybe heads scratching to look at like the amount of I don't know leverage they have and say like why are they letting radium profit off of this um and why is it just radium or like why don't you open up maybe like a bidding war between the amm if you're going to go that route or you could just vertically integrate yourself um things are fair questions I would be surprised if there's not some relationship that exists U that's completely conspiracy theory uh but at the end of the day it's very very very very hard to make a deck I I would know and so it's in some sense like they don't have to worry about it they don't have to like really care they

did they've made a lot of money by not having to think about it and not having to worry about it I think that they probably have thought about making a DEX or have tried and then they were kind of like why uh and and why would we worry about that we're printing money and I I I get it it's it's hard to make a deck um I I suspect eventually maybe they'll do that we've seen sort of this vertical integration in uh defi so they'll probably do that but I think it's just not top of mind uh for them to do that um so I mean I guess I kind of want to transition here as well into just think talking about like I mean a uh Austin I know you have some thoughts on just like that wait what are some of the drawbacks of the pump fun model but I

would be curious you know when when all of us are looking at this does the future of dexas in crypto over at large look more pump funny than less I mean what do you guys think about this as an enduring sort of trend so you know I think the Austin right you're You're Building you know um a configuration of Unis swap that will allow you know more or less the same functionality to come out right and so I think it's more just that similar to a normal company adding different products and ways to trade on their platform you know the protocols like Unis swap are going to do the same where they're gonna you know they've come out with hooks and folks like Austin have built ways to now like have

a specialized version for launching tokens they'll have a you know another hook that is like probably great for huge block trades or like give some privacy features right and then yeah I think you can you can basically um expand horizontally from there but yeah I think in general every exchange wants to have some issuance component right I I think that there is a a really strong feedback loop that that is created that like pump. fun is just kind of uh surfacing um without actually going all in on maybe like the applica like building out more applications off of the issuance uh because they're printing so much money at the moment just from

the the core product right um but yeah I think that's kind of the the signal here but we can we can talk about more yeah it seems like it's like a they they they identified an obvious hole in the market that existed um and then we're able to capture because of like the speed and also just like the affordability of like trading on salana like they were able to really kind of just capture the Zeitgeist uh in a way that like had not been I guess it not been considered you know I mean we could ask the same qu we ask like the opposite question to like um like Unis swap for example be like hey like you guys have people creating these pools like you never thought of like putting a token Minter in there

like that seems like a pretty like that's half of the job right um and so that people could like launch launch tokens um and then fulfill liquidity uh I think um one of the things that's like interesting is like pump didn't use or sorry Trump didn't use pump right uh and I think there's like reasons there's obvious based on the pie chart there's obvious reasons why they didn't use uh pumped off fun right like 80% is like Insider allocation and 20% is uh is for for the rest of us for the of Jim they wanted more control than uh over the project over the project more features more configuration from their

platform like yeah they would have off with with adop right so so I I think and like they used I think Meteora right and so I think like one of the things that we were talking a little bit before was about was like okay so you have mem coins launching and and now we're seeing like this like kind of grow into maybe social tokens or political tokens which I'm not crazy about but like um or or even like maybe like Fair launches and I think like the and people are saying like icos are back um and I think people have a very a lot a lot of people are showing like when they got into crypto um when they say I that these are like the reflect these reflect icos um especially on pump because one of the

things that's like very clear is that like the team or the person or the entity who launches these these meme coins uh or these sorry these tokens uh don't have like I don't think any Supply at initiation of like the to of the pool um and it creates some really weird results for like a team that actually wants to use some sort of fair launch mechanism um to get a token out or to raise some capital or to have control of some like just to have supply for themselves like maybe 10% for the team that's going to build this thing and it's like oh cool go out and buy the token on pump but you have like and it's like oh well we want to do a fair launch for the community first and foremost

like the very first transaction is never the community it's always like these like Mev sniper Bots that are just like picking off the token so I don't think that's your community and then B like what winds up happening is that the price rips up and if you're a team that's trying to buy like 10% of the supply um you might buy you might not have enough money to buy the supply of the token if it's at like 500 you know it's that $500,000 or if $500,000 is now 10% of the supply within like 30 seconds it's really hard for you to even have enough um tokens to like to be incentivized to like we may talk about this like to be incentivized to continue to build the project in a bare market like there's almost probably

zero chance that that they would maybe like the one way to frame this discussion is the Mega Trend here is that there's just a bunch of different assets getting issued on chain and pump figured out one profile uh that had a massive product Market fit right which is someone that wants to flip something into a meme kind of gamble on it but it's not super suitable for longer term teams or actually people that want to profit more directly like this is kind of the medior product Market fit for Trump as well right which is you know I I think this is sort of the pitch right which is come provide single-sided liquidity or you know one-sided liquidity which allows them to like sell into and like more directly profit uh I don't know if you actually saw Ross Albright tried there was a Ross mem coin

that got launched um I think an enormous percentage was aird dropped to him uh he tried to provide one single-sided liquidity and sell some of it and he he messed it up and so ended up losing tce he he messed up twice oh no so sorry dude it's been 10 years since that guy's been operating a computer I feel bad but uh blockchains so many times but I think this is like reflective of okay the majority of of people that on board to pump are on boarding to buy something right and then the Persona that buys something you want to then get them to issue something right um and then I think the configurations that and the ux that they want to issue something is not going to be kind of like like have the level of control of like a Doppler right

or a coin list like it's just going to be people are like oh cool I'm just gonna mint this meme um and then there question of now like do they actually want to go up Market on the issuance side um because that will that will involve actually changing the product as we're as you're you know describing now for all the problems and like I don't know if you want to get an actual team because they're viewing pump is this like amazing Capital formation place like you're going to have to like let them have a little bit more control and like actually have some of their supply not get sniped right um and at the same time it's also much more crowded I think in that like upm Market part of issuance um you know you have like coin list

you've got Echo Legion Doppler um and so yeah but it I think that's probably the the point in time we're at now where they got to decide I I think like one thing that I think a lot about is like it's like really hard to interact with these markets like I was trying to provide liquidity for uh a token that we were talking about earlier on this podcast and uh it was really really really hard and I think about I like very deeply understand what's happening under the hood and I was struggling to do it and I so I can't imagine like Ross or anyone trying to provide liquidity for these things and so I think that one problem is that like these users are entering a market structure that is like very un

very very unforgiving we've seen so many people get destroyed uh exactly how he's done day in day out and to the point where we put incredible guard rails on lping inside the unisoft interface because we're just like do you know what you're doing please don't do this if you don't uh and so I think like that's actually one of the issues that's going to hold back all these things is like just interacting with onchain markets is really hard and we like need to abstract these things away from these users to make it easier and in some sense like pump did that really well right like do people even realize like that like you don't have to even know what radium is to like use pump you don't have to know what like uh the square root price or concentrated liquidity like these are

just like crazy Concepts to them and I think like that's one thing they did very well was like don't think just click and you'll have a good experience and so I think that's one thing that a lot of other token launchers will struggle with as they expand past uh this very simple process is like giving controls to users is actually kind of bad sometimes because it's like confusing and they can mess it up uh so you got to like give them controls but also like not give them controls um and so I think that's one thing people will struggle with it feels like pump is like specific for like I think what's happening is maybe is that like people are starting to use it for alternative purposes other than what it was initially designed for and and pump is meant like there was a so so smack from

uh compound VC just not to not to shill another podcast but like he just started a podcast and he had his first one I think it launched yesterday and he I don't know I can't I can't pronounce the name of the research guy that he had on but his name is Philipe I don't know what I can't pronounce the name of the company that he works at um but like um this the least effective shell of all time so sorry a rough one it's called smack talk uh it's on Spotify and YouTube um I have I'm not going to be a guest on it I don't think but but like they were talking about uh there's two types of tra there's two types of coins right there's a type of like investment that you make when you're trying to you're buying something

with the hope of selling it to someone else and then there's like investment like there's and then there's like like fundamental investing there's like like uh which is more like you think that this is going to be very big and you think it's G to have value and you're investing in something that you like you can you feel comfortable holding for like 10 years plus potentially and like I think what what pump has done is the market that they've done is the the hype Market the the trend Market which is like just you know uh buy something with like the the intention of selling it to someone else at a higher price and like that is what it is for and that is like all what so launch something buy it sell it sell it buy it like that's that's what it's good at and like that's very

simple and for mem coins I think it works when you start to do like projects that want to do Fair launches like that maybe have some sort of value uh Beyond just like the meme itself um it gets a little bit dicier because like it's not fundamentally built for that um and you're looking for like an alternative alternative like design and you're looking for like an alternative like mechanism to to launch that type of token I think so I've got a question for you guys um maybe we can transition a little bit to talking about just this phenomenon of mean coins uh mem coins r large um it's been surprising at least to me how enduring this phenomenon has been and there's a there's a number of

ways that you could track this which is one there have been these successive waves so I was trying to pull up a dashboard before I'll find it in 30 seconds but uh just these sort of Phenom like these different waves of of meme coins which many people have tried to call the top on this and it is just the new amount of coins that are being uh issued on pump every day has been basically a one-way uh Street up and the amount of fees that have been generated is still pretty oneway Street up and it doesn't seem like that's changing anytime soon even as meme perform it feels like harder and harder to trade meme coins now like the it's like that roller coaster which gets lower and lower and lower but this phenomenon keeps going I think you could even maybe even go back to past cycles and say this

is the latest iteration of a behavior that's been extremely persistent within crypto which is kind of the altcoins with pictures gambling right and this might have taken many different forms in the Ico era in the nft era in the mem coin era but you could you could make the argument that it's all the same thing right it's kind of degenerate gambling on chain and buying stuff that people don't really believe has long-term value and so I don't know whenever you have a trend that's arguably been going on for 10 plus years you know it's it's I understand the knee-jerk reaction of looking at this and saying this isn't good hey we might not just want this right like sort of the normative reaction of this is not a good or moral thing especially if a lot of retail is losing money or it just feels silly and I don't understand it

and so I'm just going to assume that this is speculation however I do think there's a pretty compelling argument that this has been going on for 10 years and so you probably shouldn't ignore it and most of the fees that are being generated on these L1 and the infrastructure that we all like and view is very legitimate are mostly being driven by mcoin or nft or whatever shitcoin trading so it's also pretty hard to ignore this trend at the same time so maybe we can kind of move from the mechanical discussion here into how uring is this do you guys think is there real value that's happening here do you mostly view that this is being pretty circular and relatively predatory like how should we think about this and then uh miles I'm going to kick it to you at some point to talk about this um

publisher exchange model I I guess like one thing I guess I am very invested in this and I'm a little biased but I I do think it's incredibly enduring uh I think the sort of like idea of permission as capital formation is something that's like never really happened before the ability for like anyone to buy something and uh anyone to issue something is very powerful uh from sort of a fundamental standpoint of like how things exist I I I I would actually attribute a lot of the issues that we have seen in the S of like you know we had white papers or tokens with the white paper those were icos and we had tokens with photos those were nfts now we just have tokens with tokens and that's sort of it meme coins I think a

lot of that's actually because of like regulation and how uh bad it's been in my opinion uh and sort of like how unclear it's been and the only thing that's been clear is that you can't do something that matters um and so everyone said all right screw it we're just going to do like Vapor Weare token stuff because like that's the only thing we know that can do can happen and people have now wanting that like the only legal advice is remove every single thing you can do from this and that's been kind of bad and I I don't know if we'll see these things evolve over time but um it sort of does seem like as Clarity over what actually matters occurs there's been more understanding from the market um and it's mostly just

been a problem of like we don't know what to do and so people just do nothing and and people really aren't pushing the bounds um and I think like Clarity will bring a lot of actually value to this space because it will allow people who want to build legitimate things to build legitimate things uh people just want to like a lot of people want to build cool things and that's like the fundamental nature is they just want to build cool things and be rewarded for it um but it's been in difficult to do that these days uh and hopefully will get easier yeah I I couldn't agree more I think like no matter what you care about meme coins everybody looks at crypto and sees cap like permissionless Capital formation as a really strong signal um and and something that like there's

something there right and then we see this happen so many times like a team a new platform comes out like okay we see that signal through the noise we want but we want like you know go to go to market without kind of an anti-casino sort of approach right um we're going to go after real world use cases etc etc then they go to like rwa issuers and the rwa issues like um okay we are kind of interested we're prioritizing where like activity is happening where users are right like they're looking at this as a revenue generation sort of opportunity they're not going to go to the empty chain right and then so the project at

that Point's like oh okay crap we need to get retail activity on the platform today like what do we do let's run back you know some of these playbooks let's have like the incentives you know going and then we'll get a bunch of liquidity and of course you're going to have like meme coins and speculation come with that then they get a bunch of users in activity and then the rwa and like the more like real world you know mature crypto use cases like like you know Partners look at this as more attractive right so it just kind of I don't know whether projects like want this or not they often find themselves like kind of at that point after banging their head against the wall like trying to make you know real world stuff happen and that's

the cold star problem with issu issuance and apps like issue you know applications need need assets right and the issuers are only going to go where there's lots of activity um so we can talk about like the publisher exchange idea afterwards but that's why it's super interesting when you vertically integrate you know issuance and some sort of application on top um kind of kills that you know cold start problem um but Jim yeah let me hear yeah I guess I would just say like uh like narrative like there was a tweet I was like reading by a guy named Doug funny uh I was just talking about like I think his like uh perception of like where the how long narratives are lasting and that

it's shorter and shorter and shorter and like you kind of feel it like the infrastructure narrative was like two years long which is like essentially through the bear like infrastructure and then um and then like I I forget what the next one was but it was like the meme coins um and then like a that maybe was like a year or so and like the AI sort of narrative was about six to eight weeks long and you know now we're on like social tokens and like social fire or and like that'll be like you know and now tokens are essentially going up and going down within like minutes um but at one point meem coins were like you know it was like a whole thing where it was like very PVE and it's just turning into like PVP uh so I think like one of the

things that this suggests to me and I think he correctly stated this in his his tweet but something we've been talking about was like around Christmas time this year or last year um I was talking to the rest of the team and we were just kind of like man like it feels like we're in desper the desperation phase of um uh of of the market where like people are putting on like 50x perss like on hyper liquid or anywhere and they're just getting liquidated like just just getting crushed I may or may not have been part of the liquidation Squad uh getting liquid Squad not the liquidation Squad um a few times and I was like man this just feels like desperate trading like just hoping that like oh Trump trump got it an office

like let's just put a 50x per on on bitcoin um and see what happens and then I think like maybe two weeks ago I was like man this feels like the exhaustion phase already a little bit like people are just tired they've been trading on pumped off like I think one of the questions is like what does this do to people's like attention spans and like what does this do to like your this ability to like engage and a few folks talk to they're like yeah we have friends that like aren't doing so hot right now um like people are staring at their computers for like nine hours um and it's only one o'cl in the afternoon um I think Trump like kind of maybe like really accelerated this where like that was the first time in a very long time where that weekend I felt like any

minute I was away from my computer I was like potentially missing something um and that's just exhausting like that's not how I that's not how I operate like we're you know so like it was just like holy crap like I I walked away for you know four hours Melania launches right like my buddy uh took he's he was in front of his computer all day he's like I'm gonna take a walk I'm like yeah go take a walk around the block or something he takes the subway ride and like something else launches right like like I think Vine launched or something like that and it's just this like oh my God like oh my God I'm just like I just need to be we're calling it locked in but like I don't quite think it's locked in I think it's like just tethered and chained to our

computers because we're just like we're locked up exactly oh nice we're not locked in we're locked up um and so I think that that's like that that that feeling and that experience like does not does not last very very long before like people burn out and just just kind of go oh my God what am I doing uh we need a reset so I don't know I don't think we I don't know whether we're in the eighth inning or the seventh inning or the ninth inning of the bull market but I think a lot of folks right now are or the fourth inning but like I think right now people are pretty tired uh of this experience yeah I do think part of that just like the market structure of

pump like heily rewards the earliest possible user like I don't think it's actually like does not have to be a thing like in some sense like you can build a system in which you the best value predictors are the people who benefit the most and in some sense like that is not you don't have to be the first at every single thing if you are just the best at predicting what the value of this sort of thing will be and I think that will radically shift sort of like how the market works because it'll become more similar to like uh any other investing where it's like I think this is good or I think this is bad and it's not just like I slammed 50 Soul without looking at a contract or looking at anything and I made a generational bag and can buy a

yacht now it's like that's a really bad Market structure and it's like very draining to people using it um and I think we haven't really internalized that as much and like how bad that is for both crypto crypto people assets launching it's like the only thing that matters is hype and intention and not like what the value of these things actually is yeah Jim what's your favorite quotes like these violent Delights have violent ends right um and I do think yeah I do think the uh you know whoever the the timing part of the pump piece is what I do think has driven the virality So High um but has also made it yeah not sustainable Ledger is the global leader in digital asset

security trusted by 7 million users and securing 20% of the world's digital Assets in recent years Ledger has built a comprehensive ecosystem of products and services making digital ownership more secure and accessible for everyone Ledger's newest devices Ledger stacks and Ledger Flex introduced the world's first secure touchscreens making it easier and safer to manage your assets alongside Ledger stacks and Ledger Flex they have also launched The Ledger security key app offering a safer alternative to traditional password management follow the link in today's show notes to get started with Ledger today just like as a zooming out for a second too I think one of the uh multicoin put out this great piece on Internet Capital markets the other day but I think it's I think it's roughly

right right like you could sort of look at um what we're building here as capital markets or highly Capital markets like in nature and they're permissionless it's Global so you have kind of massive distribution from day one but also you've taken down the cost of issuing by several orders of magnitude so if you think about what it takes to issue an equity right and get it listed on something like the New York Stock Exchange for the NASDAQ there is a huge hurdle rate both in terms of actual cost of first of all you have to spin up a company you have to P for everything you have to pay lawyers there there's an actual capital outlay in the beginning then there's all the friction of the work that you have to do and then there's compliance when you want to go public and then there are different

levels of friction which you can look at as a hurdle rate um for other types of assets so that could be bonds that could be real estate whatever it is so when the hurdle rate is high and you have a lot of Regulation around it fewer assets get issued when you've essentially compressed that cost down to zero you are going to see what is basically happening which is just a flood of new assets getting issued and some of that is just going to be hype and uh useless stuff right the um the noise to Signal ratio is immense among mcoins and probably the Market structure is just broken but I think there is maybe a point to be made that um when you lower the cost of issuance some of the capital formation that would have happened if

the hurdle rate wasn't so high and is actually valuable is starting to happen now and this is where I think just some humility in terms of what these meme coins are or what they could be over a long period of time I don't know it it's a very persistent phenomenon and maybe in 10 years I said this was all gambling and this all just sucked and it was a huge waste of time I could also see for instance social tokens like people issuing tokens of themselves weirdly having some amount of value over time and here's an analogy that I would give you guys is this whole attention economy thing is obviously real and a thing that happens very often right now is someone builds a big audience on Instagram and then they want to monetize the audience okay great you have all these indirect ways that you need to monetize the

audience I'm going to create you know uh sneaker brand and put my I'm gonna I'm going to create all of these [ __ ] products that aren't actually that useful and I'm G to slap my name on it and that's the most useful way that I can think to monetize in a weird way social tokens are just a more direct honest way of monetizing that attention uh the analogy that I actually give you is in another way to think about this is in how people like to speculate on Commodities so in commodity markets there's like you know uh a bunch of different Commodities that exist soybeans uh oil whatever um but there's a huge demand to actually speculate on those things as well and so sometimes you get these weird abnormalities in Market structure that makes oil go negative because it has to actually physically settle at a certain point in

time and I think you could kind of look at it and be like look people kind of want to just gamble on the price of oil you should maybe actually break this distinction in between the actual need to use oil and the desire to just speculate on it and you know I can view I can look at negative things there I can look at positive things but you also could just look at it as a thing that makes sense and is probably going to happen and there are pros and cons to it so I think meme coins kind of also get jumbled in because it actually are there are different things there's meme coins which are just picture there are social tokens which are celebrity tokens we've started to see I I don't really know what to think about this but company tokens uh which are

just completely devoid of equity whatso and maybe there's a valuation gap which is why people are are launching those but I don't know uh there there might be something here a little bit longer terms longer term in terms of lowering the cost of capital formation and actually the creation of fundamentally new asset classes in general um which I think is going to be a thing so the the multi piece a good compliment to that and now I'm going to try to say their name because I do want to give them credit for this is uh it's like I think it's called th Thea yeah oh yeah Felipe he was just on blockworks yeah or he's just on B curve yeah yeah yeah he they published an article on like January 7th which was like maybe a couple weeks prior to the multi-coin thesis one

called internet Financial system and it's really good I I actually highly recommend it and uh it's very good so maybe it's a compliment maybe there's a lot of over there I think there's quite a bit of overlap there um yeah I mean essentially what you're you're talking about like like I mean to some extent especially when it's companies and like individuals like there's two things here so number one and this is gonna be a shell we invested in like this company called uh noise and what they're doing is like they're essentially saying like hey don't bet on the the mem coin bet on the trend um and so it's going to be sort of like a mind share marketplace where like you can bet on whether like the Mind share of a certain topic or a certain like maybe pre-launched network uh like are people talking about it are

people not talking about it and you can actually like go long or you can go short um like whether you think uh there's going to be like more interest in this category or this like idea than there was you know today um and so I think it's like an interesting way of like kind of so maybe meme coins are like sort of a d maybe it's a derivative of mem coin trading um it's like you know you can be you can be right on the trend and wrong on the mcoin um and that's like a tough thing for some people to swallow especially when there's like five different versions of the same meme coin with the same handle with the same like ticker and you just like picked the wrong one because like you don't know because you're new to this and you're just trying trying

things out um that's that was like my so that's a show but like also I think it's pretty interesting and we've been doing a few polls in like the this like this this group to see like hey are you long or short like crime like I think Vance just recently tweeted something that crime season is over and so I just like threw a poll in last night and I was like guys Vance says crime season is over are you long crime season being over or are you short crime season not being over and bad news it was 77% short uh so so just for some feedback there on like whether or not crime season over yet or not or where we are maybe the second or third ending of it um and uh so so there's that um and

then as far as like I mean I've thought about like you know I think social tokens are interesting I mean the question is like whether you can add or attribute some sort value to it it doesn't necessarily have to be dollars it's like it's like airline miles it's like all of those things right like can you give some sort of like benefit of some kind to someone in some way um for buying this token um maybe if you buy enough uh like fish tokens um you like the band like you get uh you get like access to early like like ticket sales or something like that maybe if you buy $20 million of trump token uh um they'll have a meeting with you in the Oval Office we don't know yet um but

like I think there's like a lot of ways to and hopefully that works like I think the one thing with social tokens in general and maybe like where I get a little bit confused is like one of the hardest things about social tokens is that like it changes the way the person who creates one has to act and I think that like when there's work involved does like excessive work from like what I do out my da in my daily life then it makes it harder for that thing to actually like become valuable um with like friendtech if I recall correctly like you would buy a number of friendtech tokens and then you would be like added to like a group chat right okay great you're in this chat with me and now what are you asking me questions um like do I feel like obligated to like

give you alpha or like send you casa or like and is that even like what I want to do with my day um I didn't really sign up for this but you're not the pro you aren't the so the the use case here is for influencers who do and by the way all the Dynamics that you're describing is this idea of like audience capture having to change your day you have to take annoying photos when you go out to eat right this is all [ __ ] that they do already so for them like this is just a more direct now now when Jake Paul he doesn't have to sell you know poisonous Lunchables to the Next Generation he can just launch a coin and we can all just say I bet more people will know who Jake Paul is five years from now than knew

him five years ago like it actually might be I I think it's actually achieving the same thing with extra step without extra steps and the friend the friend Tech thing was interesting but the four of us on this call are not the audience for that because you have a day job everyone on this call has a day job so I think I think that's where F Tech they didn't do enough work to figure out who their core audience was and then make the product better for them because like basically we were just like I don't want to create Alpha for you people like they they should have just figured out who the core creators were and uh you know incentivize them more more directly um but I have a I want to transition into this um this point miles you you surfaced a really interesting uh article

on the publisher exchange and just to maybe lay the the groundwork for this this is a rant that I've gone on like six or seven times so if you're hearing this uh for the six or seventh time I apologize but I do think one of the interesting I think there's a media use case in crypto which has not yet been identified and um I can't really see how it's all going to come together but I see the building blocks and the building blocks for me actually start with the you know the the zoom out the macro angle here is that I think social media is actually right for disruption uh because one you know they kind of started out in the open internet but now they're all very walled Gardens um I think you used to have very positive relationships with your social media apps now like generally social sentiment

has shifted against them with the maybe the exception being Tik Tok um but also you know they've played a massive part in undermining the media that came be came before them like everyone in crypto loves to criticize mainstream media I think you could basically look at Main media and say they had 75% of their ad dollars get yanked and they have a talent problem and like you could largely say that's the issue and the business model has just imploded um but social but uh one of the things that crypto is really good at is you know what social media still has today is a massive Network effect but what crypto is really good at is breaking those Network effect by bootstrapping demand and token incentives and so you know you kind of look at some of these things that have been pioneered in crypto like nfts meme

coins and I see them as solving problems like putting on my media operator hat uh they solve problems like nfts are you know we at blockwork spend a lot of time basically talking to a very small engaged Community saying go do this go do go to this conference sign up for this newsletter subscribe to This research and if you can actually like nfts are a tool where you can build really strong engaged community and facilitate and reward that U so that to me solves a media problem um on the mem coin side it's hard for me not to look at mem coins as a decentralized like a market-based attention algorithm um which could one day potentially replace some of the work that social media companies have done I could see Society thinking that a market algorithm is fairer than someone in like politically

some you know sh shadowy super coders in a room creating the algorithms um you know I can kind of and then finally uh there's a huge shift in something called first party data to third party data uh Publishers used to have access to first- Party data which is like you uh your job your name and where you live and your job and that kind of thing now they only get access to third party so that's like where you live your rough income and things like that it's much much less valuable but now that everyone does things on chain you have uh you actually have addresses and you can like they're public oftentimes and you can see what's in there and so I think about it from the standpoint of if I'm advertising for permission list the conference it's so much more predictive whether or not

you're going to sign up based on if you've traded on Unis swap 100 times in the last two months versus where you live or your geography so I kind of see all of these building blocks out there for some New Media angle that hasn't quite been fully fleshed out or explored here and Miles that's why I really liked what you sent over the other night which was this idea of the publisher exchange so my ramble is over here but can you just kind of out this connection like what the publisher exchange is and this connection between content and uh exchanges and yeah yeah and we'll tie it back to the some of the themes that we've been talking about um so yeah want to shout out Arnav um from hash ke had thought a great piece about this I think multicoin did as well but publisher

exchanges are basically um combining content creation and value Exchange in a single platform so you have Publishers uh they issue assets right they issue content they their main job is to acquire attention um and you have exchanges which have historically mainly been separate that basically these platforms command like the flow of money so this is Paypal you know eBay Robin Hood coinbase um and more and more frequently even in web 2 you see these the vertical integration of these things so things like you know the Spotify merch bar or you know embedded shopping and Instagram and things like that right um and I think we got started talking about this

because I see pump. fun as kind of a early example of a web 3 publisher exchange you have users minting these images as meme coins and they you know are meant to like grab it attention right and then a built-in Marketplace lets people trade them couple of them get people very very rich early on right that grabs more attention that creates this like really powerful feedback loop where um you know you come to buy a meme coin and then you want to create one right and and it's it's it's really interesting I think the the additional potential of like doing this in um web 3 setting is that not just a single Loop

right like a lot of these publisher marketplaces are a single Loop whereas radium right can come and grab the liquidity and you know they can graduate to radium but that's like not really showing I think the full potential of of like how this could become multi-loop um but the idea is that you know issuance Feed The Exchange layer The Exchange layer layer like feeds feeds issuance um and going back to what you were saying Michael like there's two ways to do this you'll have I think net new publisher exchanges are they're rare but they're incredibly powerful like I I told you we are um you know I'm building helping build Delta Network um we like any other

platform have this cold problem of you know needing assets but also needing you know the asset issuers need apps like we were talking about right and as an L1 I mean this is like the dream customer for you um it's centralizing the a huge amount of asset issuance on one platform right uh on your on your platform and then that's driving attention and then there's going to be apps that can permissionless build on top of like these assets right giving them even more utility um but they're really rare to find frankly and like sometimes you just have to like come up with an idea yourself and go incubate it or something like that um but there's also this idea I think where we can a little bit easier

a path is to turn existing Publishers into publisher exchanges um and so this is you know let's say I'm going reading a blockworks research article um you know I have some credential that's issued to me for for being a subscriber and then I'm scrolling down and reading about like the this perex and then let's say you know using like an embedded frame or something like that the perex shows you an advertisement where you can use your credential to as like credits right to go try out that application for the first time um or Austin honestly like even the um a lot of these these issuance platforms right like coin lists it's not we can talk about

permission list versus permission because I think it's super super important it comes with like interesting tradeoffs but let's say with coinless is like a you know permissioned issuance right so this is not like any project or any person can come in and sell on coinless but they try to curate that to high quality assets um and then they try to keep you on the platform right they want you to go stake via coinless they want you to go like lend and Swap and do all these other sort of like State you know basically Revenue generating activities that makes the platform more attractive for the next potential issuer that's saying oh look at all these you know customers using like the you know the product that they bought uh on the

platform right um so yeah I think that's maybe like you're trying to drive some signal through the noise um I think the challenge in the trade-off that I alluded to is when it's fully permissionless to issue these assets it's great it can go viral it's easy to use but there's no innate utility right necessarily on top versus like the polar opposite end of the Spectrum which is like I don't know issuing like an rwa right and having like a secondary Marketplace for something like real estate like it's harder to scale that supply side of assets on your platform but there's immediate utility right because it's gated and limited to only like certain ones um so I think we'll find a middle ground here so it be like

bloggers issuing some token via like a substack you know specific version of this social token infra that actually redirects guarantees like Revenue to be redirected to the Token holders of the social token um so yeah there's lots to talk about here but pause yeah I think I think like one thing I've been thinking a lot about is like I've been talking to these issuers like these people who are uh trying to build something that has like typically gotten a lot of attention and like they're like I want to build a meme coin I want to figure out a better way to monetize the attention that I get so these are people who typically are like the typical people that someone would think of when you think of attention this is like

fashion designers and artists and music people like these are people who who have had traditionally a very difficult time uh monetizing the attention they get uh and I've actually like thought a lot about like I've worked with been working with some of these people on like how do we rethink how they monetize through issuance uh and thinking about how they monetize attention because these are these are people who have a very difficult time monetizing but they generate so much attention so like what for example I've been like talking a lot with like the self shill but like the Yap Capital team and like they're like building a fashion brand inside of a a meme coin but it's also like they were at Paris fashion week and had their stuff there and it's like they were

getting the front page of Vogue and all these huge huge uh attentive um uh like Instagram post through fashion and it was like people like wow that hat is so cool like and I was like it's a coin right like that's like in some sense like that's the cool part is like uh all this attention's flowing in but it's very difficult to monetize it all today and it's interesting sort of seeing like these worlds combine like the massive amount of attention they get on Instagram versus like the sort of like difficulties they've had monetizing so I think like I I think one of the reasons that is it's just too hard to integrate it's too hard to use these markets they're too separated it's very important that we abstract all of this

away and make it much easier for people to use and that's sort of been the core thesis of uh Doppler which is our first product it's like how do we make it just like trivially easy for anyone who's anywhere to build something that's or like is interesting and has value and I think going back to your point about permission versus permissionless I think the the way you solve that conundrum is by uh having some like having a market structure that rapidly prices these these these uh assets like in some sense like if you have a permissionless capital formation you're going to get a lot of spam a lot of worthless stuff and it's up to the market and up to the mechanism that they're being used to filter them all out and that's like what we've really focused on is like in some sense like every pump token is valued

the same exact way until someone buys it it doesn't get cheaper um and that's actually very bad because in some sense it's very hard to know what people value when the price doesn't go down uh and so you have to build a market structure in which the market itself is pricing these Al these these uh assets and I think that's when we'll sort of see uh the cream naturally rising to the the top and we'll see the benefits of people picking these assets because uh they are benefiting greatly by picking the ones that that win and you just can't buy everything because they'll go down um and that I think is when we'll see the final version of What Not the final version but an advanced version of what permissionless capital formation looks like all right everyone listen up like I

said at the top of the episode Unis swap Labs is rolling out the red carpet and launching a $15.5 million bug Bounty this is the largest bug bounty in the entire history of crypto to anyone that can find a critical bug with the Unis swap B4 protocol this bug M name is to make it the most rigorously reviewed codebase ever deployed to ethereum now the Unis swap name is basically synonymous with security $2.4 trillion in cumulative volume has passed through Unis swap V2 and V3 without a single hack so Unis swap V4 is dedicated to bringing that same level of security and transparency to the V4 protocol so if you want more information or eligibility or scope or Rewards or payout or any of that good

stuff there is a link in the bottom of the show notes I highly recomend that you can stop listening right now go to the show notes click the link head over and tell them that I sent you start earning money today this episode is brought to you by Moro Moro is the first and only defi protocol coinbase has integrated directly into their main app giving millions of users access to borrow against their Bitcoin on coinbase just as web 2 companies like Google Amazon and meta were built on internet protocols the largest financial companies of the future such as coinbase will build on decentralized protocols like Moro whether you're an individual fund fintech or institution Moro is for you follow the link in today's show notes to try Moro today well how how much of the like um in order for there to be some sort of non-speculative or

potential like utility right um sure you can make issuance could still be like sort of permissionless but how much does that also depend on like multi-party coordination right of ways to go then like like you know use the token or for the token Drive some value um I'm thinking about these conduct graders like maybe people holding this stoken as a signal for another company to go Target them right with an advertisement or something like that um I guess how much are you thinking about that like in the post pricing kind of like where what what do I do with these things afterwards yeah I think how we think a lot about it is like the LP of the token is the first Revenue source for the

token so all of our fee revenues from the lp go back to the Token itself and so it's the first Revenue generating asset and in some sense like do you need another one like as long as you're bringing attention bringing value and people buying and selling that creates value for the token through the fee returns of the lp and like as long as you're sort of the ability to get people to buy the token for some reason maybe like there's a hat involved or there's like gating for something like that directly benefits the token and the ecosystem because it's slowly growing in the fee returns that it has and so I think like we'll see a lot of that formation is like how do you build these

ass these these revenue streams for these assets through the uh actions people are already using um so like you could imagine that like maybe an Instagram post like sells the ads on the Instagram post and some of the value goes back to the Token that was attached to it and so like these are just like typical value streams that are streaming back programmatically to uh the underlying asset and I think like that we see a lot a lot a lot more of that because it's much more transparent it's also very easy to set up comparatively to like how things are set up today like ad I I know people who are like influencers and the difficulty of getting like ad deals for influencers is insane and so it's like why do that when

you can just like say oh this app has this like I'll just stream back the ad Revenue to their token and it's it's so simple to do and so simple to implement and and I think we'll see a lot more of these things as like you have a wallet or you have a programmatic way to give people money and it just simplifies things at the end of the day like you don't need a contract when you have a smart contract when things are enshrined on chain like in some sense like when anyone integrates with Doppler I don't need an SLA from them because they're when they integrate with me they're signing they're essentially signing a a contract with me through integrating with me on the smart contract level I will say maybe just just one potential challenge there is these influencer deals are extremely bespoke

and often times like the best fits right like it's it's not uh fungible ad inventory it's it's it's almost super in but uh you know one one thing that I I think is uh just from my perspective is just I didn't really understand this we'll link this in the show notes this uh this piece but just how good of a fit content and attention is with exchanging value and are many examples of this that you could look at and arov goes through some of them in this post but you know you have kind of two different business models some starting with an exchange um and then of a value or money and then some starting with this exchange of content and then them integrating and making quite a bit of money and you know he talks about uh Tik Tok the Tik Tok store or Instagram uh like live where

you could sort of see something in a photo and then purchase it um and then it integrates the other way as well so Robin Hood has been acquiring um you know they ly bought snacks so it's now Robin Hood snacks even on coinbase they they might have removed it but for a long time they had news on the platform as well and I can think of a number of reasons why this is good it also just intuitively makes sense right like if the the purpose of is to generate flows right around an asset then you need to direct attention to it so from the perspective of one of these publisher exchanges the the value comes from you uh could keep people on the platform longer right which is what I'm assuming coinbase does with their news uh product they just don't want people loog Ling off to go check the news you

can just do it right there um maybe you can decrease CAC like customer acquisition cost which is maybe how Robin Hood looks at it I think when it becomes really powerful is when the medium that you are displaying the content influences the amount of buying power for the asset and so like here's a concrete example from this that exists in the real world which is Instagram so imagine you're showing something you know you you have the ability to show something on a website versus an actual Instagram post where you can show different models like trying the thing on and stuff like that it might actually it probably increases the the uh the sales or the conversion rate of uh clothes or merch or whatever you're selling on Instagram to bring this full

circle the reason the other reason why I think pump fun is a good example here is because they I think actually saw this connection and they for a little while there had a live streaming part of the app and the reason I think that makes a ton of sense to me is because if you have streamers that are doing crazy things or engaging Their audience around the meme coin is probably going to generate a lot of attention and it might make people more willing to buy the meme now the challenge of that and that's why I think Miles the question that you asked about permissionless listing versus permission or providing some sort of framework or something like that is so important is the value proposition of pump fund is that they you know decrease the cost of issuing these meme coins to nothing so you got a bunch of wackadoos

uh you know they're issuing the coins and then when you let those wackadoos uh on stream anything they're going to going to do in some cases some prettyy dark stuff uh you know some not so great stuff so that was kind of the challenge there and and probably there's a huge cost for moderating uh that content and creating an editorial product which is what you got to do as soon as you get into the the content game so but I think there's just an enormous amount of white space there to experiment and crypto super Well Suited frankly super well suited for this yeah totally but and if you're on like the fully permissioned version of that like it wouldn't be hard at all to have the teams come on your you know the coin like whatever it is for a live stream talk about the project all like very

buttoned up and and clean right but definitely less like sort of viral potential um yeah there's something there yeah and you know when you go to more of a permission model for media in general that that implies that you have to kind of hire people and the coordination cost is much higher versus you know social media what's so great about the content creation is that it's all free right for Facebook they don't pay anything for all their creator and it's just free ad inventory for them so that seems to be the direction of like truly scalable media in the internet age but I mean I don't know um all right guys this I feel like we've covered an enormous amount of ground here I guess any closing thoughts or anything that we didn't get to um I don't know just

thoughts and memes or dexes or anything in general I mean yeah I think it's on block Works to become the uh the first non non non dgen publisher exchange uh you guys got to look away embedded payments you know there there's a lot for you guys to do a lot you got your work cut out for you yeah I uh I will think about it um we will see but yeah it's you know I do think that there are for um company like blockworks is a pretty traditional company right we're a you know a media research and data shop and you know you could kind of roughly switch the industry out underneath us and the business model would still make sense I I do think one of the advantages that more traditional companies have in crypto is you are going to start to see

products like on like leveraging things and doing things on chain um is possible for us in a way that it's not possible for other Industries there are new tools that we're building here in real time that if you figure out the combination or the right business model yeah you can take a business and really supercharge it so I'm not saying no miles thing talk about it goodbye to SAS buy by block work subscription Revenue income micro payments yeah you could do micro payments to a bunch of different defi like you could have like a Morpho Vault you have a blockworks Morpho Vault um where like you charge a fee and um in the interest that they earn and that pays for the subscription right or

we talked about another idea but that's one that we didn't talk about so I feel comfortable just coming up with an idea versus talking about something that we actually talked about but there's like there's a lot of ways right where you can actually I'm sure people um and it might actually get more eyeballs on block Works research um because they feel like they're not paying for the subscription even though they are they just it's just part of like this fee while they're actually they're earning money and somehow and they're paying you and they're getting something into them they might think it's free um versus it going to like a I don't know uh Gauntlet or something like that I don't know who yeah yeah right it's yeah totally it's um it's it's super you

guys all get your Alo check by the way so you've all earned earned your your advisor OS but yeah I I think that there's um there's definitely something there and just eyeballs and attention in general are you know Austin at some point during this uh when we were talking about narratives you talked about app season I mean at some point right like we will have apps I I I think it would be really positive if during this next bare Market or downturn or whatever instead of uh you know we love infra and all that stuff is great but like just more of a focus an extended focus on apps and generating fees and using cases and products I think would be very positive hopefully before the bear is over hopefully not two weeks actually but yeah let's go baby let's go all right on that little Cliffhanger I

think uh we can probably close it down here guys thank you so much uh for doing this this was a really fun episode um uh Austin miles Jim if folks want to find out more about you or follow you or whatever what's the what's the best way to do that I guess go to uh Austin Adams head on Twitter and I'll you'll see me yapping uh go ahead go to delta. network and learn about Delta uh go to at velvet Milkman on Twitter and watch me watch me [ __ ] post what is the what is the the origin story of uh velvet Milkman by I'm glad you asked Michael uh so um so I my my Twitter account is from

like 2009 um or maybe even earlier than that and uh there was this like I I used to be a tax accountant so I used to do like long long hours during tax season and tax season goes from like January to like April 15 and so the final four is like during that period of time right where they have like the brackets and back then like on the internet there was like this thing called like the name of the year um and they would have these like brackets with like people's names that were just like the craziest names that like you could ever think of like one I think one kid's name was like Pepsi Coke real name like legal name right with like a link to that and there was this one name velvet Milkman that I just thought was like so

good I've looked up velvet milk man you gotta find this guy yeah guy girl woman yes so she was the head coach of golfing at division one University of Georgia and she wasn't on Twitter at the time and so I just took at velvet Milkman and when you Google velvet Milkman unfortunately I I don't have a lot of followers so I am not the first result that comes up she is and she's a retired uh coach of women's golf at the University of Georgia and she shares her name with me Jim I hope at some point velvet has tried to open a Twitter account and very confidently thought no

one would possibly have this name I'm confident that also has happened she must hate me and she's like and what is crypto what is cryptocurrency like what is going on here oh my go that's awesome that is so much of a better origin story than I could have even imagine but that's great I'm glad I asked um all right well now you're GNA get a bunch of followers because uh yeah velvet Milkman uh go over follow Jim uh miles and Austin and yeah guys thanks this was a ton of fun we'll have to do it again sometime soon absolutely thanks awesome guys