PUMPFUN, ACX & AAVE | Livestream

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What's up, guys? Just wanted to let you know about the Block Works Digital Asset Summit, which is back in New York March 24th through 26. We'll have top speakers from leading asset managers, financial institutions, DeFi protocols, crypto companies, and policy makers all under one roof. Think of Black Rockck, Coinbase, Robin Hood, and more. Follow the link in today's show notes to buy tickets, and make sure to use code 0x200 for $200 off at checkout. See you there. Nothing said on Xerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is forformational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Pokio Ryan and our guests may

hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. What's up guys? Welcome back to another live stream of ZRX Research. Hello Danny. How you doing? >> GMG GM. Welcome back everyone. How you doing Bach? >> I'm good. I um kind of excited because there's a lot not a lot but relatively decent chunk of topics to talk about today. How about you? How are you feeling? >> Good. I'm um observing the macro bear porn that's filling all of the timelines and um I'm unbothered and moisturized in my own lane right now.

I um I find it's a lot of I keep seeing like a saw Felix my boss posts I can't even talk about him like that just because he's my boss you could fire him um I don't know I saw them post I mean look they know way better than I do I'm just a silly boy who likes cryptocurrencies Uh, you know, >> fire him right now. Fire him live, Felix.

>> Fire me live. I don't know. I saw Quinn quote tweet. I saw Quinn tweet something and then quote tweet ate it two minutes later. And I think when you have bears tweet and then quote tweet in a minute or like self retweet their quotes that much like they're being right. I think that's when you got to take a step back and realize you know what what's happening. Um, but yeah, same in my own lane. Don't really have anything to particularly add about.

>> Hey, big news for me though. I saw Coinbase tweeted, "There's a 60% chance egg prices increase in March." >> That's very good. >> I'm not worried about eggs. >> It's very good. >> We're covered over here. Just for some lore, I think Danny is producing around 12 15 eggs a day. >> Yeah, about a dozen a day. >> If anybody needs any eggs at a discount, Danny, I don't know if you're doing discounts anymore. Prices are going to go up, but >> no discounts. We operate in in favors and trades. So, >> you've got baked goods or you can offer up services free of charge in exchange.

Oh god. Okay. Today I have a bunch of stuff I want to chat about, but I think the first one is almost definitely probably the most recent thing, which is this insane a swap that happened yesterday. Um, we saw now we know it's Garrett bullish, which I also think is the funniest thing in the world. like the [ __ ] but he was um I'm gonna pull up the A tweet or actually um not a but Stanny's tweet, but he tried to swap out of 50 million USD into um USDT into a but he received only 324 a so I think he yeah he got slipped. Um, I

think he received 35k. Um, this to me is Oh, the other thing is it's Titan Builder ended up paying like 13,000 ETH in tips to get that block. Um, no, you get what I'm trying to say. They ended up making a lot of money. Um, >> this I don't think you should be allowed to make that trade on the front end. Like I don't know what else to say here, but do you know what I mean? Like I think we should just block people from making it.

>> I think >> it should be very very difficult. >> Yeah. I mean I think clearly if you've used any swap product like I don't doubt that there were probably multiple warnings that they would have had to ignore and click through. Like usually I think we're at the point now where most of these products it's like if you're making a swap and the the slippage or the perceived price that you're going to receive is really bad, they give you a big warning that says, "Hey, confirm that you're about to, you know, take 35% slippage on this trade."

And like usually that's fine when you're swapping a memecoin, but I I think you just expect someone who's trading with 50 million uh to not just be like spam clicking through the buttons on a mobile device. Um I don't know. I think this showcases a couple things like just a lack of care for the money and lack of paying attention by the user in this case. Maybe there's something on the product side as well, but I don't know. There's just so many things that had like went wrong to get here in the first place.

Like why would you even assume there's 50 million in liquidity that you could that you could buy in one order? >> Yeah, a lot of things don't make sense here. Yeah. And also he did it through the mobile interface. >> Yeah. >> Which to me is insane. >> Like I just can't There's I don't I don't think you could pick an asset on chain anywhere where you could just shove 50 million and not expect to be horribly destroyed immediately on like either the slippage or the lack of liquidity without doing that. like OTC, you know, we we make fun of Sailor for his bad prices when he apes into BTC, but this is uh this is kind of a

different level. >> Yeah. I will also just say one more thing. This was really funny because Mark Zeller came out literally 30 minutes later and was like, "Just use D5 Lama." And I don't think like I' I was sent a couple of images of what the A front end looks like when you're trying to make that change make that swap and it's not that large of a warning sign. Like I think on DeFi Lama for example, the warning signs are like very clear, right? And it'll like even pop up if you have like more than 10% pitch. I think it'll say, "Whoa, your size is sides.

Please be careful." Or something like that. Versus the one I saw on the a front end is like very small at the very corner. Um I still don't think that he should have been allowed to make it. Oh, another thing is this is like because I think a lot of trouble, people obviously want to kind of pile on to them. But um this is like one of the things that people said is the a swap feature that integrates cow swap um is one of those things that the lab side added to get more money into the labs entity as that wouldn't be owned by the DAO. Do you know what I mean? So they were like this was a rush job. It's like it's not a

great product and it was purely built so that a labs could get some revenue that wouldn't go into the dow the same way that unis swap had like a front end fee right that would only go to the lab side. So obvious whatever like 85 90% slippage >> more 99% slippage. >> I don't I don't understand why you'd use the A front end to make a swap in the first place. Well, he was trying to buy a but >> yeah, it's like aggregators exist like go buy it go buy it in the most liquid and like available place >> and that's probably not the a front-end

trading app. >> Oh yeah, I think the counterargument here is like cow swap is technically meant to give you a good because it's like there's market makers on the back end, right? So what they end up doing is they would source the liquidity and bring you whatever the best liquidity is. Like that should be the objectively the way to do it. Like as a solver, I'm giving you $50 million. Hey Danny, solve my $50 million into obvious solve it. >> Just solve it. Figure it out. Um and do you know what it like?

>> Yep. We gave 10 million to the builder. Like don't don't [ __ ] dip the like it doesn't make any I don't know. I I was a bit shocked because if it was like I don't if you were on what's a [ __ ] deck wolf swap. If you're on Wolf Swap and you're in like a you're in like a V2 Wolf Swap pool and you're like trying to swap I don't know like some obscure USD token into a and you get slipped 95%. I think that makes sense to me because you're like picking a pool like if I got slipped 90% on an aggregator I would I would find that

aggregator team. The same thing is like if I get slipped 90% on a solver I like a lot of people are [ __ ] on a lot of people are [ __ ] on Garrett bullish rightfully so I don't know about the a shooting I don't know if that makes a lot of sense like they just have a swap feature on their front end I mean that's but like from what I understand the cow swap feature should not be working like this like you can aggregate multiple liquidity pools like you can charge a 4% slippage that's fine Yeah. Yeah. I mean to me I feel like this is largely it's it could this is really only explained by user error like it just

doesn't the the math doesn't math in my head of like I don't know if you have that much size you wanted to buy this asset like I mean the value of a itself like this circulating market cap is 1.7 billion like you're talking about putting in portion like percentages of the total supply of the token and you think you're just going to swap that in in one trade with one click. Like there's so many things about that just don't make any sense. Um >> what did he know that he was in here right now? So, I did see something like I don't know if I don't this is probably made up like who knows

what's true and what's not true because it's you know just data on chain and people are going to make up say whatever's you know makes the most sense for them or post postfacto rationalize it to themselves. But I did see someone saying like what a great way to um you know launder some money and you know it like an easy way to kind of like write it off. you write off the loss here as a tax tax loss because you just gave away all the money to a builder and then um you've like cleaned some funds um after a small haircut. Who know that's maybe it's true, maybe it's not true. Maybe it's just Garrett Bullish swapping it and he's stupid and he doesn't know what he's doing. Uh, I I like maybe agree with you like you you probably need to

put like a stronger warning of like, hey, you're going to get 1% of what you're expecting to get here. This like you probably don't want to press the button, but if you really want to press the button, go ahead. Um, but at the end of the day, like this is kind of like a crypto ethos thing. It's like people use these things because they don't want to be told, you know, what not to do. So, if somebody wants to like be stupid and just click away their money, um, you know, power to them, I guess. >> I don't know. Yeah, maybe >> you're you're going to lose you're going to lose >> like as a business it doesn't make sense, right? Like you're going to you're going to kill your users if they if you let them just like destroy themselves. So, as like a product, it it

probably doesn't make sense to enable that. So yeah, it's probably a combination of things like we need to maybe still educate people, but also maybe you should have some stronger warnings on your front ends. >> I don't know. It's also they tied it to this to $464 million that he had or I guess 414 now, but that he had completely on mobile wallets for Gish. So like I don't know. I this like it was an exciting day yesterday though.

It feels like we don't really have a lot of these like moments that much anymore. >> It just feels like I don't know anything about this guy like you wonder I mean if you're if you're like willy-nilly thrown around 50 like or you just you're you come from absurd wealth such that 50 million is a drop. Uh, a lot of things about the situation are very they're like very not normal. >> Yeah. I also saw that thing about how he was washing money which to me made sense like or else it doesn't I think that's the only I think we want to make ourselves think that a guy with $465 million is not a complete idiot. Yeah.

>> Like we would just assume like oh this guy isn't. He's actually has a way bigger reason than we could ever imagine. that is he's washing it. Um >> I think that's good push back. Sometimes just like sometimes stupid like the easy stupid answer is the correct answer in many cases. >> Unfortunately, most of the time it's the easy. >> Um I have two more. But before we get into that, I have to ask you about this. Um for the pump fun thing, are we going to talk about both of the updates? because they just got an update out today as well.

But I wanted to talk about kind of the rumored slash already kind of obvious. Um I think they announced it in fact, right? The the USD token B. >> Uh did they announce the >> Oh, they did not. So I am leaking rumors that have been leaked to me from random people. The only thing I know is that um even before people send around the uh like the IP check for like some of the domain domain names that they've purchased or have been acquiring. They did recently expand the uh trading terminal product to be multi-chain.

So it wouldn't be surprising to see them like more broadly go multi-chain as a product or like a as a platform. I I I don't think it's that surprising like to just make it more of like a generalized trading app. Um obviously, you know, they make the money off the memes, so it's like there's I I don't really see a downside to saying, "Hey, we're just going to let you trade other assets here, too, and take a clip on that." Like that's what they would want. Um I don't I don't I don't know. Do you have any strong big opinions on it? I don't really have any big opinions on it. It feels like not that big of a deal. for one like there's not really meme trading happening anywhere else other than >> yeah maybe bass but even then it's like

that's probably the one the one ecosystem where I could see like okay maybe there's and maybe even on the B&B side although I don't know if like pump really does it hit the Asian audience as much as like the Asian native apps do I don't know maybe >> well the same question so okay so maybe as a rundown so what we're discussing is this what we saw on I think it like what domains were registered by the pump fund team. >> Um and it was a variety of them but I think the main ones were base um Ethereum they had Sapolia and they had mainet they had monad interestingly um and they had BSC. I'm sure they had different ones as well but I can't

remember them. And then um yeah I guess like the two points of thoughts here is that one they're either launching the full launchpad product on all of these chains. Um, the alternative is like some other form of maybe revenue generation. I've been told they're going to launch like a completely different product. I don't think it's true. I don't know if we're playing off the like launchpad thing. Um, even on I'm not sure how much they would pump Fun has a great name, right?

Like amongst creators, token creators, people know how to use it. I imagine the same people who launch tokens on base, launch tokens on Salana, launch tokens on VSC as well. Probably maybe like the overlap there is less circle and more like actual ven diagram, but I can imagine there also launch tokens there. Um, but from what I've seen, a lot of the tokens being launched on base right now use Flanche and there's another one, Clanker.

>> Yep. and they use unis swap v4 hooks and they're like so it's like they already have a set chain of applications that they use. So they do xyz and then the end goal is the tokens liquidity pool is on unis swap. Um and this is also actually why um TVL on unis swap has previously aerodone was very vocal about how they were dominating TVL but unis swap has done quite well with their v4 hooks and then getting tokens to launch.

All in all, what I want to say is do you think they'll be able to break into that into like because I don't really understand what goes through the creator's mindset over there. Like their goal is clearly launch token make money. Does pump incentives help enough such that they might make more money so that they will go into pump or is it easier for them to just keep their current system, keep mass launching coins and try and make money off of that? >> Yeah, it's a good question. I don't I was I'm trying to pull up the uh Launchpad revenue metrics, but I'm pretty positive that there's been a big

breakdown in the numbers outside of Soul in the past few months where there were a lot of launches happening on base and I think maybe a good chunk of that was Zora related, But that has basic I think Zora pivoted right and so that activity has kind of declined. So I think on base now it's it's limited to maybe more of the yeah the clanker and like some of the AI token related stuff.

>> Yeah. This is this just kind of shows you like souls at 28 mil revenue per month in February. Base is at 4 mil. BMBB's at $44, which I just find so funny. Um, we can also go by Launchpad. What was the one? Okay, like Clanker is actually doing surprisingly well. They're at $4 million, but I imagine they're launching a lot of um AI agent tokens, I guess, right? And this is for February as well, right? When like claunch and stuff happens. So, >> yeah, >> I bet it's a lot of that activity as well. Yeah, I'll share I'll share this one as well. Just this specific

Oh, there we go. This one as well on uh specifically the launched tokens, launched by tokens by blockchain. So, you can see like there was a lot of activity happening there kind of across the board even on BNB in the tens of thousands of of tokens. But base it was pretty significant. I think a lot of that was Zora driven um in January, but we've seen that really kind of grind down to a halt. >> I don't know. >> And the sole activity has been pretty consistent, which you know is all pump fun >> basically.

>> Um so yeah, I don't know. I think I think there's maybe a a brand effect there that could be meaningful. I think the bigger question is like >> but they also pay creator incentives, right? So I imagine that's quite meaningful as well. >> Yeah. And and the other part of it is is like it's probably less of a question of why you as a creator would launch there and more of like is the is the trading activity there on the you know who are the retail traders that are trading these tokens on base. Um if there's appetite from them to trade them because I feel like you know looking at the history of Zora there was no appetite to trade those tokens. there's plenty of

appetite to launch them and like kind of play around with it, but the volume was never there was never any sustained meaningful volume for Zora coins like there has been for for Pump. Um, doesn't mean that I, you know, I think they're they're kind of like fundamentally a bit different products, right? Because they're trying to make it all postbased. You know, a coin is a post and a post is a coin and all that. Trade your trade your posts. Um whereas pump is more just you know launching tokens associated with kind of any sort of meme or idea. Uh maybe it can work on other chains but there is a question of just like you know do the will the creators want to even launch there because it's unclear

if there's even enough like retail trading activity there to support you know bring in the like creator fees that they earn normally on like a Salana. But for pump it probably just makes sense like you know shove your you have the brand already so you might as well just expand the product out. I feel like we see this generally like I don't know the the wallets are doing this like every it feels like every product is kind of doing this. It's like you kind of establish a foothold and then you you expand out and you say okay we'll do multi-chain trading we'll do bridging we'll do you know we'll start offering these products we'll integrate these different products. I I feel like I see the same kind of path happening for pump. Uh this is the first time I feel like maybe they're maybe serious about

actually branching out like that cuz for the longest time it's been memecoins only Salana only uh and they've not been getting outside of that. So maybe they will make you know turn it into more of like a generalized kind of trading platform. We'll see. Yeah, I don't I feel like they don't do the live stuff as much anymore as well, like pump on live pump streams. I don't know. I need to check out what they do. Like they make most of their money on the AMM. So, I think they just like they're trying to put that AMM everywhere. Um, which objectively makes sense. I don't I don't really know why you would have anything else if you have the AMM and

it's it's 80% of your revenue. just put the AMM everywhere you can, you know, and I think we'll see the same thing. Um, so I I know like I just showed those figures as well, but I was surprised to see Actually, let me pull them back up. Like some of these I mean a lot of these um launchpads, they're just like I don't know. They're kind of cooked, you know? Like look at this. Um, like Clank is making 14 grand a day, which is not bad. Okay, Zora is at four.

Bonk's at two, but I mean there's some like four means at $2 a day revenue. Meteor is at 600. Okay, but Jupiter is like a beast everywhere else just makes money. Um, I don't know. Like, isn't this super low? Like Radium's at 1.1. Believe fast. No, but I I don't know. I I guess like maybe you're more involved with this stuff, so you looked that up from before, but it's been a while since I looked at it and I was looking to see compared like because Metadal is doing their own >> token lock, right? And whatever you can launch on. So, I was just trying to

figure out like what's what does success look like? I don't know if success looks like pump because that's like a completely different animal. Um, and the rest of them success doesn't do look that good. Like Bonk is doing relatively well. It's number five. Makes two and a halfk a day. Let's say 365. They're making $800,000 a year off that. It's not great. It's not good revenue. It's not what it like used to be. And I guess you can say like, oh, I'm looking at literally one day of data and that's fair. Um, but I don't know how much it can go up going

forward. I don't know if meme season's going to come back. I don't know if it comes back or it comes back in the same way that it was before. Like isn't there a chance that it's the old school way I guess where it's like I think uh here maybe I'll share this. I'm just playing with the data a little bit more. If you take out pump and then look at sort of everyone else on weekly revenue, we are >> kind of in one of those like low periods again. Yeah. And we've seen like each of these spikes actually has just been largely from different like a different product kind of catching a wave. So we had there was believe and then we had the bonk fun kind of couple month or so

and then we had four meme because there was BSC meme coins were going crazy because CZ was promoting them again and then more recently Clanker was doing pretty well a couple million a week on base. So yeah, I don't know. To the question of like what success looks like, it's hard to say because outside of pump, this is like the norm for launchpads as a product, like as a category, it's you find some success for maybe a month or so, and that's probably about as good as it's going to get. Um, Pump has been really the only enduring product in this category. these from a revenue

perspective like you know Clanker and Bunkfun like these exist you know you you could go and and use the app today but it's like they don't have the the level of activity and the usage that they had when they were you know maybe regarded as like a bit more successful or exciting. Um whereas Pump is like kind of held a bunch of that. Um but I feel like this is also just a thing within crypto today is that it's I don't know. You just tend to have these like one singular big winners in lots of categories. Like if if you talked about pers, you would say hyperlquid. If you talked about, you know, dexes on ETH chains, you'd talk about unis swap. If

you talked about, you know, trading on Salana, then you talk about like Jupiter. So, um, we just tend to see this like this huge consolidation around one kind of categorical winner. Um, and then there are periods where maybe specifically when the when the excitement and like the, you know, the hot air kind of comes back into the market, like people maybe get a bit more excited and they're willing to bet >> on the uh not the leaders. Um, but if it doesn't pan out, then we see that we see that revert pretty quickly. That happens pretty consistently. >> Yeah. And I Yeah, I agree with you on that. I feel like we've also had a lot of teams just waste their potential. Like the perf's example I think is pretty obvious is like

lighter came in guns blazing doing relatively well competing in volume. I think they beat hyperlquid in volume for weeks unfortunately hasn't been able to compete since. Um, same with Texas. I feel like I mean the biggest example here is Sushi, right? Like back in the day they came guns blazing. Um, vampire attack unis swap just failed afterwards. >> Yeah. I think part of it too is like I mean we we're all pretty aware of it now but so much of this like new entrant success is oftentimes just like hey we found a new way to incentivize something. Uh maybe it's

under the hood, maybe it's maybe it's in plain sight, but it's like hey, you know, all the swaps are free right now. Get in there and do your volume. You know, maybe we're giving you liquidity farming rewards. like we've we've gone through a lot of different like ways and iterations of of doing that usually like in an attempt to unseat or become like the new category leader and it tends to work for a while but you know you can't just like endlessly incentivize something at some point you know the the the product like has to operate on a not a pure loss.

>> That's what you think. But what if we did 99, you know? No, but I agree. Yeah. I mean, a lot of crypto has unfortunate. We're getting to a good place now, though. I think it's like >> it's not necessarily a bad thing either. Like I think you I mean, you see this within tech, fintech, generally speaking as well. It's like, you know, early days of >> Yeah. >> Uber, Lift, right? You know, they gave out free rides or cheap rides like a lot of online platforms. It's like, you know, transfer your money over, you'll get, you know, like an enhanced rate for a couple of months. And so, like, it can kind of, you can see that like supercharge maybe your growth for 3 to six months, but does it work for a year,

two years, like when you really zoom out, like have you done something meaningfully different enough to like keep people there or not? I think that's that's probably like really what's happening here is we're seeing sort of like the incentive cycles or like the excitement of like this new incentive thing or just it being a new platform kind of wears off and then it's like okay is this actually durably a better product or is it kind of the same thing with just a new a new rapper on it. >> Yeah. Another good example here is like I actually read this the Chinese AI companies ended up giving out a lot of money during um Chinese New Year like the red packets just to get users to use their front end. And so I mean it happens everywhere but you have to see

if it's gonna if it's going to last. Um and like you said unfortunately it hasn't lasted for everybody. I guess last up today, we already did a this one I think is particularly relevant for you because you hate tokens or I guess you hate tokens that aren't equity. Um I have some notes on this, so I'm just going to give them out really quickly. Um so Risk Labs, which is the labs code behind a cross, wants to transition from a token to a USC corp.

um their argument in their SNAP in their discourse is that the current set of appenders institutional partnerships and enforcable contracts. I think this makes sense. Um and that ACX token holders can either exchange tokens for equity or sell tokens at 0.04375 which was a 25% premium. I think this has gotten ARP since. I don't know. I remember it was above it at some point. Anyway, for equity exchange holders with 5 mil ACX can convert directly, smaller holders would have to go through a no fee SPV. Um, buyout would be funded by Across's existing liquid assets and following this they're going to like

following the snapshot they're going to do legal structure and UI development uh immediately after it passes. So, couple of couple of things here. First of all, I think Dow structure should allow you to sign enforcable contracts. I think what this more so is is that they are going to get bought out by someone. That's my that's my is I think and being that paradigm is the one leading this effort I imagine that Tempo or Stripe are going to end up buying out across this is my honest opinion um I think I think it's a very clean way of

doing it though like I completely I see why they do it right I can't imag the thing with intense protocols is that I can't imagine their burn is high and they don't make a ton of money. Um, I think they probably make some money, but I don't know how much money they make. I don't know if they have runway. Um, I don't know how scalable intense this is. So, I think what they want to do is exit to a large company and just run the infrastructure on the back end. Makes complete sense. All, you know, kudos to them. We don't get a lot of private companies in crypto that are like acquired by other companies, which I think is actually a decent way to grow and exit as like a founder. just offer a really good product and they get buy bought out. Um, so that's my take. Um,

apart from that, if it's just to like may allow people to buy equity because you think the token structure is messy, it's also fine. Maybe tokenize that equity and then you can buy it as a token as well. Like that's the ideal setup, right? Like you just end up tokenizing equity instead of equitizing tokens. I don't know, but do you get what I like it like I'd rather have legal rights that are represented on chain than like onchain that like doesn't have any legal rights. >> Yes. Yeah. I agree with that 100%. I think to that point there's no pathway today. Like I don't I don't think they have any means to do a direct like okay we're going to turn this token into an

equity representation in the company uh directly on chain. I think we're probably still waiting at least within the US for some more clarity there before people like obviously if you IPO your company and you have it equity on the stock market then you can have a token that trades onchain that's related to it but it's not you know it's not quite the same thing right um I do think this is a pretty good outcome like if you compare it to some of the acquisitions we've seen over the past year now a lot of them were hey the team is acquired the token is zero Now, good luck. Um, this is much like let's say that your your thesis is correct and that they do get bought out or acquired by somebody. The fact that you could buy

the tokens right now if you wanted to and then convert them into ownership stake in the private entity and then if that entity gets p like acquired, you would receive a payout. Um, that's that's a way better outcome than holding the token. The team gets aqua hired and then your token goes to zero. So, I'm I'm I'm certainly like a fan of that directionality at least. I think just getting rid of these like I don't hate tokens. I think I just hate them in their current form in that they you have zero guarantee about anything. You don't really have any ownership stake over anything. You're entirely at the whim of the team.

>> So, it's it's not a great it's just not a great setup. And there are some teams who are good stewards, but not all teams are good stewards. And ideally, they wouldn't have to be. Ideally, they would just be forced to be just by nature of the what the product is. >> Um, so I think this sets them up though, like let's say they don't get acquired. >> This sets them up to say, okay, like we were a public token, you had the opportunity to purchase this thing and convert into the private entity ownership. Um, if at some point in the future we're allowed to just tokenize the equity on chain, like I feel like they'll be in a very good spot to just say, "Okay, we're like we're going to basically go public and tokenize on chain whenever that becomes clear,

assuming they don't get acquired. If they get acquired, then it's like a win in that scenario as well because you get paid out at least." >> Yeah. Um, completely agree. I like what you said about how ideally they don't have to be good stewards, they're forced to be good stewards. contract law, the beauty of contract law and they just right now they unfortunately do not have it. Um I think the Dow you mentioned you mentioned the difficulties with and I think yeah they mentioned in the post like difficulties of doing contracts with established businesses via the DAO is like just cumbersome because of what it is. I I feel I get the feeling that we try

like crypto people tried a little too hard with Dows to make it like this crazy fancy thing, but I don't know why we couldn't just, you know, kind of structure a DAO as if it were sort of like a business. And it's like, yeah, you know, maybe you still sort of have like a CEO >> and you have like a lawyer and, you know, you've got >> all of the maybe sort of traditional roles and you don't need to. And the other thing that we haven't really figured out yet is like a difference between like an ownership stake and voting rights for decisions.

Like, you know, there are >> everyone has voting rights, which is ridiculous. like you know we've got there's like voting shares and non- voting shares in equity land and like I don't it's not I don't think it would be that hard to like replicate on chain. I think that's the whole point of tokens is like you it's programmable like super programmable so just program it to [ __ ] have voting rights or not >> and we've played around with a bunch of those things right we've played around with like I don't know maybe then it just like maybe the reason is that it then it starts to look exactly like a security and so that's why we've not done it in the past is just like you're getting too close to the regulatory kind of line. Um but yeah, I don't know the the path dependency of the of the reg,

you know, the regulatory kind of nature of the bit of of this industry is probably just forced us to stay in this like shitty >> Yeah. >> you know, representation for for too long. So, I don't know. I think this is this is probably a pretty good like one of the better outcomes. The other, you know, the other outcomes are like they just say [ __ ] it and the token is zero. Um >> which they've done, not them, but like other people have done. >> Plenty of teams have done. Yeah. So, >> this is better. Um, >> the path dependency thing, um, I wonder how many teams just like ended up building out >> a structure that slowed them down by like six to 12 months even purely because of legal issues that like had no actual

relation to bad or wrong behavior. Um, it's really a shame. like they genuinely [ __ ] over a lot of people from 2017 like the entire DAO structure even my theory is that it started off as people saying okay like we can't like have a board and structure it like a company because that would like put some people at risk so we want to decentralize it and then that entire thing led to like this f fantasy idea of like what a Dow how it should be. In reality, it was just like kind of a loophole to exit some stuff. Um, and a lot of people adopted them.

>> Um, >> I don't I don't know some Yeah. Like it's it's just a shame like an entire administr not administration but you get what I mean like one SEC chair and the one previous I guess just really made it difficult for a lot of people which is a shame like unis swap problems wouldn't have happened. a problems wouldn't have happened. Um, everybody who ever lost money because the company got bought out but nobody received any token. Nobody received any value for like Padre wouldn't have happened. Padre pump situation. So a shame.

>> Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um >> maybe one last one last point is you mentioned so if you don't want to participate in the conversion you'll get bought out at 0.043 the year you're right it pumped off the news it pumped to like 008 I want to say like double that sort of like clearing closing price and uh people have obviously sold into that since then. So now it's only like 0048.0 05. So there's still a little bit of a a premium there, but obviously I don't like maybe you could short this on Binance a little bit. It's it's a bit small of a gap at

this point. So unless you're like already a holder and you don't want to participate, there's probably not really like any value left on the table at this point. Um >> to play around with that. >> Yeah. >> But yeah, it pumped really it popped really hard off the news. like way way beyond the price that like they they called out at as sort of like the buyout clearing price. Um so there was maybe an opportunity to kind of make a trade there then, but since then it it's come down quite a bit. So it doesn't it doesn't I think the you know the market's going to kind of converge to where that expected price is. >> Yeah. I just want to share the chart.

>> It's really funny. >> Yeah. Zoom in. There you go. Look at that. That's a crazy [ __ ] pop though. God, this token is I don't know a lot of these like like this is objectively like a decent product, right? 35 market cap. Insane. >> Yeah. And I mean the hard part is like the bull markets really they distort so many valuations. >> Yeah. Um analyst of the week. Who did we give it to last week? Was it Toma? I think it was >> I think you give it to Toma.

>> Yeah. This week my analyst of the week, he's not even watching it. I know it is. Shauna Deans. Um >> Yeah, thank you. >> He declined to come on the show today because >> declined to come on the show today. And despite >> he need to work. >> He needed to work. He's he's he's gonna be I don't even know if he can buy D tickets anymore. Maybe. I think it's not allowed anymore because of fire marshal stuff and we're not allowed to fit that many people into the venue. But Shondaanda's going to be giving a giving a talk on Hyperlid at D. So if you're going to be there or if you're not going to be there, you can join on YouTube. Maybe we'll I think

we're gonna put it on the pod to be honest with you. Um but if you're not gonna be there, then >> you know, tough luck. But he's gonna do a great job. I'm sure he's a very smart young man. Yeah, >> I have to put the uh we'll have to put the Shondaanda talk on here and maybe the maybe Luke's as well. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um but yeah, that's it. Danny, thank you for coming on. Uh this was a pleasure as always. And to our listeners, I wish you all a happy weekend and a nice joyful Friday the 13th.

Be safe and don't get too bearold. >> Don't get behold. >> See you guys.