PsyDAO: Decentralising Psychedelic Research - Dima Buterin & Paul Kohlhaas. Ep. 550

Transcript

psychist can be a shortcut to Decades of meditation and then I began thinking like cool what if you did this through smart contracts where like people could pull their money together and you could literally say uh once enough money is in there a chemical manufacturer could come in kind of claim it as a bounty and then deliver the substance and then and then participants could could distribute that substance I think the IP system is just as broken as the central banking system welcome to EP Center the show which talks about the Technologies Pro and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution I'm Ryan Crane and I'm today joined first of all by Paul kohas he's the co-founder and executive chairman of mikule also a previous guest on this podcast and uh he they've been incubating a lot of different

initiatives around decentralized science uh you know including one related to uh psychedelics and then we also have here the father of our most frequent guest where we have dimar buaran so father of italic who's been a longstanding very active member of the etherum community in many ways and is also very interested and people involved in sort of the transformative power of psychedelics because that's going to be our our topic today so um now just before we get in uh I would like to a few words from our sponsor this week this episode is brought to you by gsis nosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the ethereum ecosystem with a rich history dating

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note from your wallet set up a white label note or use the recently launched product Opus to stake up to 8 8,000 e in a single transaction you can even offer high yield staking to your own customers using their API your assets always remain in your custody so you can have complete Peace of Mind start sing today at chorus. one cool well thanks so much for uh joining us today guys I mean maybe let's just start with a little bit of background maybe dimma do you want to go first tell us a bit like what's been uh your journey and how did you end up here you have to give me some more Direction because otherwise you know like what is really

there right like I was born I grew up I I suffered sometimes and right now I'm here talking to you guys and it's exciting and I love you know their ideas of decentralization and uh psychics is a fun topic as a powerful tool so excited to have this chat with you guys okay perfect I think that was a good uh that was a good uh a good kind of intro and then what about you Paul uh maybe to relate it specifically to the context of the call uh so I was born as well and began began growing up Supply right or apparently we have something in

common so I was as well and then growing up I I spent a lot of time uh as a teenager in front of my computer uh as as mebe some of us did playing World of Warcraft uh collecting interesting herbs um I I was a shaman and a Healer actually in World of Warcraft so very early on it was like found found it interesting to combine things uh and then spent a lot of time in like Online Reddit forums as a teenager uh and many of these forums were uh dedicated to different like um biohacking topics uh neut Tropics but among others also uh psychedelic research so probably at the age of 15 or so even though hadn't done psychedelics yet I was like on errow with uh which some of you may be

familiar with which is like one of the first um kind of open signs trip report Platforms in on psychedelic research uh so spent a lot of times in these forums um looking at different new emerging uh emerging emerging substances uh and then I think when I was 18 I took decided with a friend together to order a few of them online so back then a lot of like research chemicals were still pretty openly available in the in the wi web these were all legal research substances at the time uh a lot of it actually based on Alexander Shan's work uh and as I began looking outside of the Psychedelic research Community as well I would as hey there's communities here that are looking at developing their own HIV therapies because there HIV patients they don't have access to anything uh

that that actually treats them were um diabetic patients for example that were looking at developing their own insulin and uh and so I found this really interesting and I was like I asked myself as a teenager why are these people here and I realized they simply hear one out of curiosity in the case of psychedelics but also maybe because they're looking uh for a psychedelic therapy and maybe um psychedelics aren't available in their country or in their jurisdiction which is why they're online with internet strangers trying to get access to something but in other cases it was often just a sheer need out of sheer necessity because people couldn't afford insulin or they couldn't afford a specific cancer treatment so we're spending a lot of time online in online communities uh and then so found that really fascinating and realiz there as a teenager hey here's a fundamental

disconnect between what people need but then also the power of Open Source and then went to University studied economics and then during my studies I learned about Bitcoin uh this is about 2013 and um and started diving into like internet forms again but this time about like bman was still our cryptocurrency and our Bitcoin and our Bitcoin markets I think and realized hey there's a similar proliferation here of like open source ethos of um um of Open Source building and then began looking at open source software um um I found that really interesting and notice there's a lot of similarity here in terms of what I was experiencing in those early biohacking or um psychedelic research fors and what I was experiencing in in um in these online forums um and that's

a part of the thesis that later on let me to uh yeah to believe in decentralized signs and and build what I did with molecule but maybe I felt like that was a long that was a longer interest and maybe I'll just give a pause here and hand it back to you Ryan yeah yeah no thanks so much yeah maybe I feel like also should add I mean per so personally I remember when I was like an undergrad I somehow started reading about psychedelics I was also super fascinated by it and I think by the idea of like okay the mind being you know potentially being so different on it I remember reading all like Timothy ly somehow the guy I found very uh inspiring so he was one of these big psychedelic leaders in the 60s and he

was a very radical guy right he was very I I guess in many ways a bit similar to some of the crypto philosophy in terms of really trying to kind of had having big political agenda around it too right because felt it was like this vehicle for societal change and uh so I got very interested in then and then you know later Years also spent a decent amount of time uh exploring exploring the Mind Right which includes meditation but also psychedelics and things like that so I'm excited for this conversation so maybe maybe to make it more directly also why why I reached out so I've actually been looking forward to having a conversation with you for like a

couple of years I've always been really curious about um specifically about your relationship with s so I went to edcon Toronto in 2018 uh still like relatively early e theorum days and I was having a conversation with someone um yeah and I was having a conversation with someone about psychedelic research and and telling them about some of these early ideas I had around like how can we use Smart contracts to essentially fund uh fund or explore or proliferate psychedelic research and he mentioned that I should really speak to you uh because you had an in Intimate um intimate relationship with also more obscure psychedelics and so wanted to ask what is your personal relationship uh with psychedelics

through throughout your life they entered my life pretty late if we speak about age uh I'm about to get I will soon turn 52 so the very first time I tried psychedelics was when I was 42 10 years ago and my entry point like I always had a very curious mind and uh always read a lot and it was awesome in terms of learning it was my preferred way of seeking my preferred way of destructing myself from feeling and living if you will and one particular book that I was reading at the time was uh waken up by Sam Harris and uh really good book loved it

and the book The subtitle of the book is uh uh spirituality without religion uh and for me that was very interesting to learn to take to learn his perspective because growing up in the Soviet Union I was uh my programming was that religion is awful it's all a sham and uh and uh so growing up for me religion spirituality was one big bundle of [ __ ] and so this book gave me a slightly more you know fine distinction of those different types of uh [ __ ] if you will but most interestingly in this book there was a chapter about psychedelics right

and the way he was talking about that was very eye opening because I grew up again like you know my programming was like drugs uh bad you know they fry your brain never touched anything besides wine well maybe a few years before psychedelics I also uh started you know opened up to cannabis uh so cannabis I don't consider psychedelic but it's related right so anyways so there was a chapter and in this chapter he basically said that uh psychedelics can be a shortcut to Decades of meditation and that really picked my curiosity be like what drugs they bad for you meditation is good for you how does that work and after reading this book I uh did a lot of reading research and listen to like

many dozens of podcasts read lots lots of books and eventually realized yeah I've been brainwashed and uh this is a very interesting tool for humans and uh eventually I tried my very first psychedelic which was LSD and since then then there were many other experiences and they were eye opening and they gave me very different perspective of uh what humans are what what Consciousness is what God is everything right and my personal story and if you will the psychological trauma uh eventually went away so it was a really fascinating journey in the last

10 years curious he said like your personal traumas went away is this something you can like expand on sure and I mean obviously any statement like this again they [ __ ] big because uh I I don't even like the word trauma anymore right because the way I look at this is different you know going into the forest and you will see all these different trees right and you look at this particular tree and you can see oh maybe this branch is broken maybe this branch is uh dried up and you know lifeless is the trauma right or is that a feature of this particular tree right and the same with humans we have our unique set of

experiences and uh they shape us as individuals right and the human mind tries to build a very simplistic story of this like oh here's this is me and this is my trauma and if I get rid of my trauma then I will be better authentic self you know it's such [ __ ] but anyways that's kind of the common story um and uh for me personally for big chunk of my life there was a painful story that I'm not lovable I'm very awkward I'm very whatever physically unattractive and I'm not loved by others and especially by females and my traa was kind of connected to my mom uh and at some point that thing disappeared that was very

fascinating like you know all of those stories just went out of the window and then it's like oh wow here's the same reality and they still have the memories but those memories no longer you know combined into that story and the story of pain and the story of suffering and poor me and uh you know blame and no it was just like it became very light all of my past eventually became ephemeral if you will it's there but it's no longer seen as uh as real in any way if you will just an abstract story no that's very beautiful I really appreciate you describing sort of how

the impact it had on you and you know it's a it's not like again it's not like you do this and then you become pure and clear and you know suffer fre it's [ __ ] you're human stuff happens and you know you get sick people around you get sick sometimes they die stuff happens you make money you lose money relationship happen like I recently uh had a very painful breakup um and it's been a lot of processing to go through that and uh and it was fascinating to observe how different emotions go through this and then like oh I'm okay that's it's not a

problem you know I'm above this but then deep waves of sadness come and like wow this is [ __ ] killing me uh new story comes up right and then eventually uh I had a couple of U sessions with some helpful tools and uh really breaking down into deep abandonment wound like you know something preverbal and there's no story but there's so much crying and screaming and sobbing and waiting uh like uncontrollable Unstoppable and uh and when the organism really gives into that it stops being a problem it's just like wow uh extremely

intense and it becomes extremely peaceful and beautiful and it's just amazing it's like how can that right like you know in normal life we usually try to say this is beautiful this is ugly this is positive this is negative right but it's fascinating right because life is not like that you can go through the deepest devastating sorrow and at the same time that's beautiful and loving and compassionate and peaceful at the same time and angry yeah that's really beautiful DEA I I had a um first of all very sorry to hear that you had to go through that

experience recently like breakup breakups are among the hardest things that I think we can experience as humans um both in romantic relationships but even with with friends uh or or Partners uh in any way should perform um I actually uh I was always really C profoundly curious to try aasa uh in my life and i' I've I've I've done um a couple of times so uh and I think first something that I learned through actually working with shamans and doing um iasan almost like a ritualist retreat like setting is this big differentiation between like psychedelics as medicine and and psychedelics with a very clear intention

and then also psychedelics as like tools and recreational tools expanding the Mind expanding the Consciousness taking something at a festival with friends or in whatever setting um so the first time I went to an iasa retreat uh was coming out of a four four and a half year extremely difficult extremely difficult relationship and I I'd almost like hit rock bottom from a from a um emotional standpoint but also like my my energy levels my karma uh and uh and so finally had felt that I had this calling to do an iasco treat and it was it was over New Years and I was just like I was looking up things to like online it was maybe like a month before I was originally wanting to do a vasana retreat which is like this 10day Sil

meditation uh but they're really hard to get into you have to be extremely committed and normally sign up three or four months ahead and so I realized okay I'm not going to be able to do a about P so I'm I'm looking up for like what other kind of retreat could I do over New Years just to get myself into a better head space and this was almost at a point where like we I was I was um coming out out of this relationship about to we were about to like move to separate continents and uh also fundraising for um uh for my second company so extremely extremely difficult time and so I went and did this Retreat and uh actually the first ceremony or the first time I took aaska I felt I just fell asleep and maybe to any listeners if you've never done iwaska iwaska can be

very different for different people and it's something it's almost even from a cheem biochemical composition and something that has to build up in your body Sasa is both composed of ma meis and then of of DMT and the Mei has to get to a level where the DMT can actually flood your brain and and cross the blood blood brain barrier efficiently so the second time I took it and my atttention going into this retreat was really to like find peace or like find a way forward with this very difficult relationship uh and and kind of like liberate myself from it um and then it only took about 15 minutes at the second ceremony and and and then throughout throughout the the journey so to speak with the medicine I I kind of relived

all of the experiences of that relationship and I think when we are in relationships we often protect ourselves from the bad like we only especially in a breaker we only want to see the positive especially when the breakup happens to us as opposed to like as a mutual thing or like you breaking up with someone you only tend to want to see the positive the and you you attach yourself to it so strongly how great right depending on you know circumstances right sometimes you get stuck in the negative sometimes just in the positive yeah absolutely only yeah I think it goes both ways I'm like an internal Optimist by Design so like whenever like when I in breakup like situations I attached myself to like why this was the best thing ever and then try to try to fix it and save it and so

uh and So within the first 20 minutes of this of the trip I kind of fell into this deep um the Deep journey of reliving almost every moment of pain throughout the relationship and like why breaking up was the right thing and then came out the other side being able to Envision my future life without this person in my life uh and uh and uh yeah I felt like to to the earlier point that you made I felt like I lived through years of like I was able to close with one just one of these sessions like through Gears of trauma and actually come out where I felt a profound sense of gratitude for the relationship but like very ready to go on this next uh this next stage of My Life um and yeah so just wanted to share can read rate to

what you're saying and also uh I I think there's an interesting separation or differentiation to make between like psychedelics as medicine and like and the whole um going to ceremonies or going to Retreats and then also psychedelics I think as ways to expand Consciousness in a in a recreational setting or or at even even as different medicinal tools well well thank you so much for sharing that as well Paul yeah I I feel maybe I want to share I I I think for me I think one of the things that I think I felt with like I think for me was also like acid in the beginning when I was maybe like 21 22 or something but I think I had the experience of just feeling very sort of like stuck in my

own like personality right I felt like yeah just sort of like trapped in there and I would I would keep moving to different continent different country because of to to try to find like to try to sort of find myself in some new environment where nobody knew me and and I feel like with psychedelics I think who sort of did was just to open up like oh this the mind is so vast and and so capable of like change as well what do you guys think of the societal role that psychedelics maybe have today or also like could have in the future so I think if we actually dig

back into like the 60s and 70s I mean when psychedelics first so actually no I think it's interesting to look back even further I mean I think psychedelics have been integrated into like ancient societies and izations I mean there's many theories that like this like a what is it the stoned AP theory that actually different um Neals and like preor humans used to eat mushrooms regularly uh then I think psychedelics had a strong role in like the Mayan and azc Empires so like this kind of also the the um the origins of iasa and then I think it was really around the the aftermath of the second world war and the Cold War and like when Ellis was discovered and different scientists were

really actively looking at cybin again or P mushroom that actually the role of psychedelics massively changed to be viewed as something negative and and bad uh because I don't think people and then there was this whole Vietnam Vietnam War like you didn't want the the powers that be didn't want the American public to wake up or realize that there's this fast this this much larger thing I think that surrounds us uh and I think probably around 2010 I felt like I feel like we've been slowly breaking out of that again meaning that psychedelics today are um much more acceptable acceptable again and that there's I think we're seeing like a research Renaissance I actually think psychedelics within if used in the right way really have the power to to

fundamentally cure things from to fundament cure specific um mental diseases or problems like chronic depression I mean there's so much data merging around that uh and um more Ule um so something that I've often or like a phrase that often stuck with me uh which is was from a from a Goldman Sachs analysis of a large Pharma company they asked is curing patients a sustainable business model and in the context of this they were analizing uh a drug I think developed by glos Smith klient that was a hepatitis C uh drug and so hepatitis C previously didn't have any cures it only had a treatment so if you get Heep C you have hepatitis C for life

and then they had various treatments on the market and so jsk developed this this cure for heepsy it's like a six-month pill that you take and then you don't have it anymore and so Goldman was like with like this is bad you shouldn't have developed that cure because you're hurting your bottom line by curing your uh like your your recurring Revenue so like you're destroying your recurring Revenue based on that the company was downgraded and I think like this there's a CEO change or like like there's a leadership change and and so the the capitalist system that we live in today fundamentally disincentivizes cures right we're all about recurring Revenue recurring users and I think this is one problem in the way that psychedelics are regarded because they they act too much

like a cure they can be a cure for certain diseases but they can also actually get people to move away from things like tobacco or or um alcohol or even cannabis uh and so it's actually psychedelics aren't a very profitable business and because of that I think their role in societ is still uh it's still very limited and and it's quite sad that that is the case it's like um yeah curious how that if that resonates with any of you I mean you know you said capitalist system but like I don't know is it capitalist system because it feels actually a little bit analogous to like you know the financial system where basically you have a bunch of like sort of incumbents that are using regulation

to sort of you know control this market and control the incentives and you know keep things like crypto out right and be a viable alternative and I think it's kind of like very similar right with the pharmaceutical company and the medical system and medical insurance and all of that just in in this kind of like really bizarre I mean and then you have this like insane outcomes right like in the US where you have you know insanely High healthcare costs that just seem to be going up and up and then life expectancy going down and the results being so much worse than in other countries and you have like you know medical debt as this massive issue I think like number one caus of bankruptcy and stuff like that so I I feel it's kind of and I remember

actually one thing I watched some years ago so there's this documentary about I think it was like the first trial they did in the UK uh for giving uh I think it was sosin to people like depress people I I think Imperial at that college and then did the documentary about it where they followed the people in this trial you know before they did interviews and during and afterwards and you know these were people who had been like depressed for like I think they had to be at least 10 years depressed and then they had to have had you know a whole bunch of other types of treatments that all didn't work and so they were really like really bad shape right like a lot of them completely locked off and and then if

you saw that uh documentary like the transformation that you saw in in a lot of these people was just incredible right it's like they came alive life again and then but then it was also sort of a sad ending right because like you know for example I remember with one guy he sort of really came alive and you know the the children of this person were like oh for the first time it feels like I have a father again cuz he's actually kind of like here as opposed to before you we just wouldn't talk even like he was just sort of there wandering around and then he kind of came back and he was there for like two months 3 months like all sudden my life and then he kind of gradually fell back again and then you know it was sort of like the

sad thing in the documentary it was like well but you know this is a trial and it's not legal so like there's nothing we can do and uh I mean I hope that will change and that this will actually become a viable alternative that people can you know can use to I mean one is I guess address their mental issues but then you know maybe also just explore their mind and learn about themselves and reality and grow as people and I want to throw in slightly different perspective or maybe totally different perspective right like stepping back a little bit whenever we look at Society it's an abstract idea here's me

here's Society I know how it is and I know that this is wrong and this is good you know and then from that I come up with ideas that society would be better this way end of the day when you look very very closely into this and become very obvious through meditation through psychics whatever like you know we feel some emotions and some emotions are uncomfortable and then we have ideas that if circumstances around us change then we will feel better and then we have an idea that when we feel better that circumstances changeed this means that the world is better and uh it's very human and it's very dangerous and

I'll just throw couple of examples at you right like one of them is drug war because yeah some people are very scared and like drugs are bad people are dying from them people dying is obviously bad and they dying from drugs blah blah blah and there is the societal change that we deem to be negative so we will solve this problem we will fight drugs and look at all the mess look at all the money lost look at all the humans who suffered look at all the people incarcerated right so all always our simplistic solution coming from the perspective like this is bad there's iner in danger right and the second small example is uh I grew up in the

Soviet Union and the whole history of the Soviet Union you know like oh you know there this whole sist Empire was bad and now we will just like uh take over and uh build this socialistic system and you know what that system was Absolut and total crap like you know absolute poverty corruption um very inhuman and lots I mean lots of good stuff lots and lots of bad stuff right so for me it's always like generalizing is very dangerous and then thinking that what I think is right is very very dangerous right so I think there the journey for each one of us is always it's a journey about how I feel right how I feel and

then here based on the emotions that we feel that we have a range of options and when we look at psychedelics they are very very powerful tool that can affect a human psyche right and uh what does that mean for a particular human it might mean nothing it might mean that they there's less suffering in them it might mean that they go crazy or die like all kinds of outcomes right it's not like it's not a silver bullet like wow we give people psychedelics to become better Society will change right but here's the thing uh there are conflicting human drives in all of us many of them right and one of them for example is that we want stability we want things to be the same right because

they seem to be safer when there's no change and we try to find a way like okay you know what let's all follow this rules let's be this way and in this way we will be safe it will be okay right of course life doesn't work this way like you know look at all this attempts look at some of the religions that try to stick to those fundamentalist ideas like all leads to disaster right the world is moving forward right and uh it's inevitable and right now I think that we're going to face even faster rate of change uh with AI and crypto and everything else right so their question is how do humans deal with change right that's a fundamental question and psychedelics as a tool that on the one it hand is can be very scary because it

can disrupt your safe and normal noral functioning it's a tool can that can help you adapt to change environment right but again like you know it's not like nothing is black and white right so we kind of have to whenever we look at situation again when we think oh I think that it would be better this way it's always a very dangerous notion because things the way they are because of everything right like you know it's not like uh they this way because the cabal of alien lizards is directing the Earth to be bad in this way of course not it's like you know it's the Infinity of different things you know what happening with the sun with the weather with

humans with food with you know po you know different countries and so on right and all of that results in the current environment right so then we might have an idea and we want to we act right and you know our action will have consequences and those consequences will be uh always Eternal and unlimited right and I look at let's again little example ethereum amazing invention amazing technology that brought out so much potential for Humanity to better collaborate cooperate and so on and has Unleashed uh so much uh gambling their icos originally then you know mem coins

and whatnot and lots of people who made money lots of people who lost tons of money people who killed him themselves right so you can look at the and say take a family and somebody in their family lost all of their money and killed themselves right so they might as well look in the theum and say it's because of this horrible invention of ethereum that my son or my husband or whatever they kill themselves so of course ethereum is bad right because we're projecting our internal perspective so this is always the danger so anyways that was my long speech to contribute to you guys Reflections I I think that was an incredibly interesting perspective Dimo and it actually it actually made me think I mean I think

permissionless networks like ethereum have a similar level of permissionless as psychedelics do when they enter the human body it's like it can be good it can be bad it always depends on your internal perspective um I actually remember in the really early days of ethereum uh this is like 2016 one of the big concerns around open permission of smart contract networks like ethereum there's a huge concern that like someone might post for example an assassination contract where like you could be paid a bounty if you assassinated someone and and like people were really scared about this as a use case I remember specifically like the Bitcoin cast being like you can't enable this open permissionless with smart contracts like uh and then it's funny

enough to that it never actually happened but uh or like like of course bad things happen on chain over time um but yeah maybe a followup question do you do you think so I think we can look at the uh the subjective effects of uh of psychedelics obviously in the human body and like every everyone's experience is different uh and and you need to careful weigh the pros and cons as you should carefully weigh the pros and cons of engaging with any any smart contract on a network um do you think access to psychedelics itself should be permissionless because today we can kind of consider it permission right in certain countries it's completely forbidden uh like kind of yeah like

there's a a firewall almost on access to psychedelics in other countries there's a much larger access do you think access to psychedelics should be more permissionless awesome question right and um I can I can never give you one answer to anything I have to give you a whole bunch of answers like the first one I will tell you is that I don't believe in the concept of should right because uh the way things are right you know you look at sost and there are obviously lots of people people who are concerned and scared right and then you say no no no it's good you know [ __ ] your concerns [ __ ] your fears we will you know make psychadelics available to everybody right so then you think that you meaning well right but you also uh

disregarding the emotions of Some Humans around that right so so for me it's not about like there's no objective Sho or whatever I can only tell how it feels to me I can tell I can tell you that in Toronto for example we now have few dozen mushroom shops and I think it's amazing I think it's awesome that now people who want to have access to to to this powerful tools they can have access to this right I can also tell you that for me personally is uh the whole idea that we tell people what is good and what is bad is uh is very questionable right so I think that for me inherently every human has the right to decide what is good and what is bad for them uh and of course it's like again it's not black

and white what so if they decide like Putin that it's good for Putin and for Russia to go and invade Ukraine and kill people in Ukraine so here's the I mean my perspective right it's like I think it's his right to feel that way and to act that way and then it's my right to you know feel differently and act in the opposite way and support Ukraine and you know and so on right so it's it's not like you know this is right and this is wrong but this is like here's that human's perspective here's my perspective so from my personal perspective I think this are powerful tools I I would like to see them more available to humans uh everywhere uh as well as uh uh people when they become

decriminalized right it becomes much safer in terms of dosage in terms of you know uh uh how pure they are in terms of uh available support uh in terms of uh normalization of everything right because it's very interesting like you actually and I want to comment the concept of normalization right because very often when I talk to humans who are going through some deep suffering like let's say I have a friend awesome guy very creative and sometimes who is suicidal right and uh sometimes when he's feeling that he reaches out right and and I know that when I'm suffering quite often then other people they want to help and they like oh don't feel this

way don't be sad and all that like guys what the [ __ ] I am sad that why deny that right so when I talk to my friend and don't tell him oh you should not feel suicidal it's more like oh wow you're feeling that right and uh this is the reality and it's very difficult and it's intense and this is the stuff that happens to humans right like you know so it's not about like saying that it should not be this way it's about acknowledging that this is how things are right because like when there is a that's a better that's a best foundation than for going anywhere is to C is to clearly see that things are the way they are right and they they are the way they

are for many reasons some of them we might be able to send some of many most of them we not able to see right so that's how I think about it Paul you mentioned like I think there's some uh some involvement in psychedelics and the birth of M can you talk about that uh oh um uh yeah oh actually this brings us back to the to the conversation that we or like kind of um just my personal introduction so as 18 me and a friend uh ordered a few um psychedelic research chemicals online uh if any of your listeners are

more into that there was 4 H O M 4 AC DMT and a compound called 2ce uh and me and my friend we dabbled a little bit but then I kind of just kept these and it was a very small amount and I just kind of kept them in my house for many years and then um after I finished University uh uh and was already kind of working in crypto so this was like 2016 no 2017 actually late 2017 uh I was working at consensus um and spent a lot of time in those past couple months like like looking at architectures of Novel protocols that were emerging uh one of them was actually ocean protocol for instance but this is also the time that crypto kitties kind of blew up on

chain and um and so it was a really interesting new time I think on ethereum like and I went home I was at home I think my my my parents I was visiting kind of my my my hometown uh which is in Switzerland um and uh was listening to classical music uh like Bri Brian Eno and classical music uh and um uh was on a doing a CE trip uh like a relatively small amount but and during that trip at towards the three or four hours in I developed such a profound um appreciation for having come into the into the ownership of this like very

rare weird psychedelic and I I kind of like and if you've no so there's a whole 2cb range or 2C range um and these are all phenethylamines and and are structurally very similar to pey or or masculin uh and so alexanderan was a famous chemist in the 70s and 80s he's the inventor of MDMA but he invented hundreds of other compounds he was actually at a he was working at a pharmaceutical company when he developed MDMA and then had such a like thought this was an absolute breakthrough uh but the company actually let him go because they're like this is too weird for us you're too cooky and so he retreated and with his wife and Shan together they built up um a kind of a clandestine laboratory where they began kind of just

discovering hundreds of new compounds he he published two books one is called Pall pholin I've known and loved him now this called tal which focuses on tryptamines uh and so out of this there's just two c range now which is similar to musculine but some of them are very weird they might work for like 20 or 30 hours like it's very much not these are not like commonly known psychedelics and so I I do this trip with Tui and I during my it's actually the first psychedelic I ever took in my life me and my friend uh and and back then developed such a profound level of respect for this particular substance because it's like I think when you read trip reports on Arrow it it says like like really only for experienced

Psychonauts only because it's something that is extremely visually intense but then also very neutral So like um and with neutral I mean that most many psychedelic compounds have like make you very emotional it's like you go you you LSD for me typically comes in like almost like waves you go through different waves of intensity of emotion while you go through a trip and so 2C specifically is extremely neutral to the point where you can almost look at yourself and from like a third party and analyze your emotions in a very clinical way while you're while you're going through a trip and so I'm on this trip it's like 11: in the evening I'm listening to music and uh think I was having lot of

red rine as well and I just come to this point where I was thinking about my life I just worked through some things and it come to this point where I like have this profound appreciation that I somewhat through the internet got like the ownership of this the super rare substance and still had some of it and I was just like wow the internet is such an amazing place and then I was like wait what if instead of what if you began looking at this from a smart contract perspective and so I knew I'd spend a lot of time in these online communities and I I um these online communities often so if someone develops a new psychedelic substance it's actually very difficult to get it uh and if you develop a new substance in principle it's always legal because it hasn't been described in any uh kind of

in any yeah in any literature yet but like it's just a new substance uh and what online communities and typically do is they do something that is called a group by so like maybe Brian you've read a new research paper from a university and and you say hey guys I found this new thing we should try this out who's interested and then let's pull our money together and then maybe we can do a group ey because typically doing a a custom synthesis of a novel chemical compound is really expensive to cost a hundred maybe half a million dollars to just get Get It produced and um and then I began thinking like cool what if you did this through SM contracts where like people could pull their money together and you could literally say uh once enough money is in there a chemical manufacturer

could come in kind of claim it as a bounty and then deliver the substance and then and then participants could could distribute that substance um and that was that like that was kind of the origin of molecule um I later on began realizing how that how that is actually related to IP how you we you need to move IP on chain how IP is actually related to supply chains and distribution um but yeah kind of that night and like it came into me like a lightning spark and then I I started writing it down and then I've essentially been building this organization ever since but that's like the origin that's the origin story and I think it speaks to the absolute power that psychedelics have I think in

infusing ideas in infusing us with uh and infusing me with energy and infusing and I'm trying to I'm trying to take dimma dima's um philosophy here of what they do to me specifically so it really infuses me with ideas with energy with resolution uh and uh yeah it's been an incredible journey of exploring how um how I then ex extrapolate this to research more generally how we can actually open up research in the same way that smart contracts have opened up um the transfer of money the transfer of ownership I want to I want to ask uh maybe going a little bit different one so you said it's important to for IP to be like on chain why is that

important uh interesting question I think it's it's really asking why should money be on chain like why should it actually be on T like we we've got the fiat currency system it kind of works you know I can make my payments and I I think the IP system is just as broken as the central banking system uh it's just it's it doesn't affect the transfer of wealth or it it just actually affects the transfer of innovation and and how we transact or fund or disseminate research openly to the public uh for Humanity and so that the patent system was actually developed in the 18th century and it had a lot of it had a lot to do actually with like the um still the history of colonialism so the patent system is deeply together

with colonialism and monopolization uh the patent system had one big hard fork in the 1950s but since then the patent system has never really evolved again and it's the fundamental thing that we use to to um yeah to transact innovation in um patents are generally created to incentivize Innovation so like if I'm researching for example a new treatment or a new yeah new Med medical treatment I should be able to get back the money that I've invested into funding that that cure or that treatment what the patent system does though in reality is it really disincentivizes collaboration it's often used for price gouging and it just creates monopolies it creates these big pharmaceutical companies that we

know as PID monopolies today that fundamentally control what comes onto the market and so what I said earlier like uh curing patients is not a sustainable business model um there's many cases um both anecdotal but also described in literature where uh where uh larger companies specifically um suppress Innovation that might hurt their bottom line meaning that if I have a if I have a cancer treatment on the market and someone has a cancer cure it might actually make sense for me to buy that and then just kill it and make sure it never sees the light of day and with patents you can actually do that uh so the patent system I think that we have today is we disincentivizes Innovation for Humanity in a in a similar way that I think the

the the central banking system today um distance czes growth and the distribution of prosperity to humanity it actually centralizes wealth uh within within a few as we've seen with the Central Banking policies of the last 8 to 10 years specifically of the last four years again if you look at what inflation has done in terms of concentrating wealth yeah and so why is it important to take IP on chain so we fundamentally believe that like permissionless open IP uh that is programmable um where you can actually access the underlying data in an open fashion would make research and science Unstoppable meaning that in the current system it might not make sense for a group of companies that are kind of collaborating in a cabal uh to to bring

a drug to Market if it if the same drug or cure was um published on an open network Capital would naturally allocate towards that if it's like if you looked at on the open network and you're like okay we have these five treatments but there's one cure we should all probably fund The Cure that makes the most rational sense so I think in the same way that smart conts are unstoppable I think IP should become Unstoppable scientific research should become Unstoppable I don't know if that analogy did that analogy make sense I think so and I just wanted to like you know one little tiny thing you know what uh what Paul was saying that resonates a lot right and I uh I do think that you know having more things

on the public blockchain the transparency of that the decentralized nature of that is uh resonates with me a lot but uh anyway like one little thing that he said at some point he said about rational decision so here's the my take uh I don't believe there are rational decisions No Such Thing humans are not rational their idea in the human mind here's me and you know I took this you know options I consider them rationally and I made a rational decision that's an idea right but why were the options the options that there were why was a particular option chosen there's nothing rational about it it's absolutely

totally subjective to a particular human existing in a particular context was all of their programming and brainwashing and patterns and the current desires and you know like and did they see a lot of smiling people today what did they eat yesterday how did they sleep how was the air and so on right so so anyways like uh um that's kind of small but important point that nothing in the world is Russ do maybe a follow question on that do you think and I I tend to agree to a lot of extent I actually I studied economics so I think some of my my thinking always ve into like the direction of rational markets um do you think there's rationality on chain in an objective way

do you think on chain people behave in a certain rational pattern no no I look at humans and humans just like uh like yesterday uh a guy that I know and he reached out to me about vitalik's recent article about uh fully homomorphic encryption you know he reposted his all artical and the guy is asking me he is a smart guy he's an engineer he's asking me oh vitalic mentioned fhe is that a coin can I buy it right okay you know that's that's human for you right you know and uh I'll go in further right because as humans we constantly um confuse our model of the world with the actual world so the

actual world is unn knowable the model of the world is is the model of the world right and it's like even like the basic things like uh math 1 + 1 equals 2 what does that mean right you know there are not two objects in the UN I mean there are no objects universe that's a separate conversation but there are not two identical objects in the universe you take two apples and you know one apple and one apple and one might be poisoned one might one might have worms or whatever you take two electrons they have different Spin and different blah blah blah and and what does it mean one plus one you know maybe they combine and blow up the whole city you know because of their fish Fusion whatever nuclear uh BL so so yeah we as humans we most of

the time we live in this abstract you know world of rationality and Concepts and models and we can you know and that's part of the reality but we kind of think that this is their reality but it's it's an aspect of reality uh we've spoken about ethereum quite a lot do you do you feel like psychedelics have anything to do with like the early origins of ethereum and I just um a Community member in side out he posted a tweet which is from narj K Aral which is like just a a troll like like a well-known crypto TR troll uh and he tweeted in 2017 that that he says pretty sure the official drink of etherum is soent mixed with iasa uh do you have any opinion or like

any experiences or knowledge that you would share like lore that you would like to share about like the early history of ethereum eum foundation or any your data prodct and psych it's fasina right it's like uh human mind wants to find their cause and effect right and for me it's absolutely clear that ality is a [ __ ] story because you can create many different cality stories they all depend on the perspective but uh specifically to your question how do you answer that like you know the original idea of ethereum came up in vitalic right vitalic rter original white paper and vitalic had no idea about psychics had no exposure no experience with them uh his white paper

was based on his interaction with a lot of people around the world right and some of those people had experience with psychotics and all kinds of other things right so that was part of their input into that into the white paper of ethereum right and then their actual realization of their idea of ethereum from the white paper that took lots and lots of amazing people to actually execute on that and build on that and make lots of mistakes and whatnot and there were many amazing people and I know like let's take Vlad zere smart tented guy and he was part of big part of some of the early contributions to ideas in ethereum and then blood is really into was as far as

I know deeply into psyched so so they are there but everything else there are also cats around people right and there were birds and they were drinking tea right was the drinking of tea that made the impact in creation of a right it's all a [ __ ] human story but that's all that we have right so do you want to be important that creation sure why the [ __ ] not cats were important for sure I can guarantee you that right and many other things like you know podcast iPod uh vitalic heard about Bitcoin from me I've heard about Bitcoin on the podcast uh from what's his name I forgot the name of this guy but he's been running this security podcast so it was a security

podcast called security Now um and it's been running for almost a couple of decades yeah you know like you know and why do listen to that and it's all connected right yeah it's all one big Quantum soup and then you want to like you know oh here's my Casal story I will take this Quantum soap and then I will start here and then I'll go there there there oh wow that's a nice story this is how this thing happened right oh and now no no no you're wrong you know I'll start there go there and like blah blah blah right you know here's another story right and now we arguing which story is right right and I'm saying all all of them and none of them and everything I want to ask you Paul so

side cuz cuz yeah cuz you guys have sort of incubated different types of dolls you know so like the ones I'm aware of right there like v doll which is a focus on longevity and uh and there is hair doll right I think is focused on like hair and then uh and then I know I'm aware of Athena do it's like focus on like reproductive Health Women's Health uh and I don't know there maybe some others that I'm not aware of right but then there's also sa which focus on psychedelics like what what does sidow do sido's mission is to kind of like make psychedelic research and psychedelics by uh definition itself like open and UNM monopolize uh so

applying like open science principles into into psychedelic research and psychedelics themselves have been yeah I think we talked about this earlier even from a research and academic perspective they quite tabooed uh and even in online forums uh I think there are many online forums for example where most people post anonymously there's still like this large stigma surrounding it um and actually maybe before we and so one of the core things that s aims to do is fund open psychedelic research uh there are many really underfunded areas underfunded that like that could be facilitated and do so in a community Centric way that is onchain native um s also supports um psychedelic art for

instance from the shipibo kibo people is like a tribe in the Amazon that administers iasa and create Sheep music uh which is really and so trying to build an intersection between psychedelic sence uh permissionless Innovation and psychedelic art um and weave that into like an onchain tapestry oh and then just because you said Quantum soup Dimo we actually have a down uh also entering kind of this this this flurry of innovation that is focused on Quantum biology so they're building it's a research team the world's preeminent Quantum biology researcher and they're looking at how do we actually look exactly what is happening in that Quantum soup but from a biological perspective because there's this big theory that quantum mechanics are actually at play in the cell and it's the only reason that cells

biological cells actually work is due to due to Quantum quantum mechanics um but one of the core things that side out um sorry like weird weird side weird side Kevin one of the cool things that side do is build uh one Community member has called it like a tornado cast for trip reports um because there's this huge stigma actually about how we collect psychedelic research and like for example I probably wouldn't want to post a trip report that I had about because it could be associated with me I can get doxed and so is really exploring like how should psychedelic subjective data uh so de also that you said that really well I think psychedelic experiences are extremely subjective and we try to find

causality but I do think the more data you collect on something the more CA causality you can infer over the effects of a particular substance or even of a even about Consciousness itself um and so what SAR is trying to build at its core is an open an open science platform that's kind of that is zero knowledge proof protected uh where both academic researchers Clin um clinical researchers can upload uh data through study participants so this is now Brian you mentioned a study that you'd read or about a siloc cybin trial so this could now be actually used in the concept of um cyber trials to that extent um uh is

working with Robin Card Harris uh from Imperial College who's a super well-known psychedelic researcher and then um a researcher called balash sigi who works really closely with him he's now at UCSF and uh so we're building up this platform called upside which is should be both for academic researchers um but also for Anon Psychonauts uh and this then goes much more into like how can we create the arrow like um a future errow WID um and then if you want to take that further you could then actually build you could train a crowd owned llm based on that data that is emerging uh and use that to uh to analyze the data um to to train an AI model that is community owned and

Community First uh that you can ask questions maybe from your your own perspective from your own causality of how other people having similar experiences can I take this substance and combine it with this one has anyone done this and do so in a in a safe uh and accessible way that yeah that opens opens this up to humanity I think that could be both use both so I often find myself Googling has anyone had as similar experiences with this this or this and I think actually collecting all that data bringing it together and then also enabling a way for people to safely share uh their psychedelic experiences uh could be really valuable to to humanity I'm saying could be not should be because it's obviously my my own yeah my own

jistic and I just wanted to mention a couple of things that came up in me as you were sharing this sounds like a pretty awesome idea and I think that uh it's very interesting because uh every psychedelic experience right it's facilitated by this medicine right but it's very much dependent on your context on your consciousness on your emotional state on you know things around around you and so on right so I think it's a when we trying to research this kind of thing we cannot just say oh if me human at this molecule how do I predict what's going to happen when I put this molecule into this organism right the thing is like your organism your Consciousness is

absolutely [ __ ] unique so the question is how can you then if you will make it more scientific by having a deeper understanding of what are there what's the emotional setup of this organism right like how do you do that and there all kinds of psychological test and all kinds of things so this is a very important aspect of this and the second one also what is the physical state of this organism right so what kind of like you know and I hope that thanks to Ai and many other tools we will also have better better access to individualized picture and understanding of this organism like you know my blood markers my you know uh uh saliva my uh you know peptides my gut bacteria and so on right because like the otherwise it

becomes like you know we can have really awesome idea about particular molecule and then give it to two different people and one person has an amazing experience and you know meets God and the other person goes crazy absolutely what do you guys do you guys feel like I mean at at the this time right there's also a lot of interest around this concept of like you know Network States so basically sort of like new types of you know communities bodies that where people like gather together you know create some kind of governance structure maybe have some physical land and you know basically try to kind of reinvent like what we've had with nation states where

there's been basically you know almost no innovation right for a long time like it's basically impossible to come in and say hey I'm going to create a new a new state and I'm going to do it with totally different rules so I'm wondering do you guys feel like there's big intersection there and that that could kind of also be one of the ways where you know maybe Psy psychedelics could end up having completely different role in society let me start with this right I think on the one hand it's very natural uh aspect of human evolution because uh thanks to all the technologies that we have it's so much easier now for I've never met Paul I've never met you Brian actually look familiar with I think we've met at some conference but uh

might have uh right but you know we're connecting and we talking about we have shared interest and we feel more connected right and and I look at my daughter and she's in this Gaming Community with Minecraft and she's into you know watching anime and she's connecting with a lot of humans she doesn't have she she's very smart and has her own unique you know aspects and she doesn't have uh friends around her here but she's connected with people around the world right and I saw that init when with alic was growing up you know and then he became part of Bitcoin Community way before he even met somebody in person right but by connecting online and so on so I think

that technologist they do facilitate this creation of new connections and new kinds of communities in a totally new ways that's for sure right but then I also want to point to this like uh again the policy of the human mind tries to idealize that and like oh wow I can find all the people that like the same thing that I like let's say web 3 or psychedelics whatever and we will create new community it will be so awesome and I will be so happy well you know what that Community will also will be full of all kinds of people there will be some greedy [ __ ] that will [ __ ] you up and there will be some awesome people who will at some point will go crazy and you will meet the love of your life and then you will lose like you know like

the humanity of us is not going away right so yes new tools new types of communities and uh this is I see this as a natural evolution of Human Society and also of us as human humans constantly experimenting with stuff right that's what we do like oh look at this mushroom let me eat it oh I'm dead oh no I am not you know it's exciting right so let's build this new community so it's amazing to look at all this uh experiments and look at zalo looks like a really cool experiment look at ethereum community and all the DS and you know like meme coins right like you know the community just built around that stuff and uh doesn't resonate with me but who cares

you know there are lots of people who are excited and they connect and they resonate and they try to make money and they lose money and uh maybe they lose money but maybe they find the love of their life right and so so that's my take what do you think Paul I would always lose all my money for the love of my [Laughter] life um uh yeah I think love is the the ultimate trump card if you I think you can be you can have lots of love and be really poor but like like ultimately like no amount of money can get you love um uh but I think on a more on a more jurisdictional level um I also think Network State experiments are really interesting and I think actually I think

there's a similar maybe forget about Network States for uh for a second I think Network States really interesting because they enable a form of regulatory Arbitrage that we haven't seen before or regulatory openness that we haven't experienced before um and there's a lot of regulatory Arbitrage in crypto meaning that some people only live in Switzerland or in Dubai or in Singapore because it's where crypto can be freely traded transacted or you can actually own it in other countries for many years you used to you couldn't even get a bank account if you were like if you wanted to get any kind of crypto assets out and the same is true with psychedelics meaning that in Canada for instance I think I believe 5 m DMT is legalized uh then you have

Colorado where I think mushrooms are now legalized uh and lots of people go to Peru because you can take iasa there Amsterdam had a similar role to playing the past with truffles um and so there's all of this I think in crypto you have a lot of regulatory Arbitrage in terms of what you can do with psychedelics you also have a lot of regulatory arbitr what you can do and so enter the network State I actually believe one of the really strong roles of network States can be like really clearly defining like we are open to this arbitr or like we we actually enable you to safely conduct uh we Empower you to safely conduct um crypto transactions we Empower you to safely conduct psychedelic research or or or safely take psychedelics uh and I think this

would actually be expanded to more more things I know uh another outstate Vitalia recently had a lot of or actually in zal both Vitali and zal had a big focus on longevity as well and in longevity research you have a similar problem meaning that for example they are really interesting longevity gene therapy however even administering a gene therapy or running a trial for gene therapy in the United States is highly regulated so I think they have this little regulatory Arbitrage where in Roan now um a company called minicircle administers this new gene therapy it's a Fest stattin therapy uh and uh initial results just I I met someone at a conference in Dubai that had actually taken this this therapy there's only been 300 people globally uh he taken the therapy and he was like it's been

absolutely life-changing and I I think he suffered he he had medical issues before but he didn't take the therapy specifically for that he's just like this longevity crack um and uh he spoke extremely highly about this therapy and said it was like life-changing for him he's in his early 30s so it's not like that he's that old yet and again this really has to do with regulatory Arbitrage and so I think Network states can play extremely powerful roles in lab in laboring current research to go more effective in enabling more open access to people who want crypto psychedelics or longevity Therapies I think fundamentally give the people what they want right like why do we have to live in a society where like I can't do what I want like like as long as I'm not hurting anyone and as long as I'm not

posing any risks or harm other than potentially to myself like I'm allowed to smoke and drink alcohol which kills more people worldwide than like anything else but like no I can't try this new experimental therapy or this I I can't eat this mushroom like that to me seems that doesn't make any sense and so I think Network states have a really powerful yeah a really powerful potential role to play to play in that what's your opinion Brian or any any thoughts from you do I agree with you I actually and I I think it's certainly has that role in psychedelics we can have that role there although you know actually I feel like psychedelics are maybe kind of threatening to governments but not like

as like I think crypto is generally like VI this like more more threatening and I I think crypto maybe needs Network even more I think especially if you think of things like privacy right which is something where I think there like just a complete you know the governments may be like okay you can you can you can trade and speculate and stuff but you know we want to like know exactly what you're doing and like you want to control the ins and outs and be able to shut things down and if you're going to try to do something privacy Focus we're going to you know like come after you so I think that that feels like something where you know what's the way out there I mean one of the ways out I could see is if you do have more of these like uh

you know new states that are saying hey we actually want to sort of enshrine some of these you know rights of people which I think historically some countries have done like a great job right like the US of course with the Constitution has historically done uh you know great job at like protecting people's rights with Switzerland as well right I think where like privacy something that's really like held up high uh but I feel it's been kind of getting um rifted technological changes it feels like these values kind of keep dropping away and I feel there's some kind of need for like a rebirth right where someone says okay we're going to come and you know Define new rights and

protections that people should enjoy that are actually like in many ways similar to things that there were in the past but just like updated for like the digital age and for the internet and for blockchains and the calization I really like that thinking and it actually just mean me wonder like why are network States like why not put like constitutional level rights into like it's I guess it's hard to enforce through a smart contract but actually I've seen a lot of network State initiatives essentially become these like little mini pop-up conferences and and like that's cool but actually like why not start at a what should a constitution look like for a network State um and I think then if you started combining it with actual like on both on

chain rights and potential offchain rights if such a network State actually had a piece of land or was in a physical location I think that'd be really interesting um I wonder Brian have you seen any experiments like I I know Network States itself is almost is almost becoming an area like in like a yeah hot area in crypto but I'm curious if you've seen you've seen anyone actually work at what you've described like that Constitution yeah I'm not like super up to date uh on like you know the latest thing in network States but you know for example I did we did do podcast as a while too now but with uh you know it's project Nation three so that's basically uh Louis quend who was one of the co-founders of Aragon and Aragon of

course I think was one of the first kind of things was trying to do on chain like basically trying to do do and they had this idea also of like a court system and uh and I think Nation 3 is really like is trying to do that right I think that's one of the core things that's trying to to happen is this kind of like you know onchain legal system where then they can have you know different kinds of values and ways to dispute handle disputes and so yeah at least that's one I'm aware of that's kind of going in this direction cool yeah it's a good job with Lewis I haven't seen him or yeah haven't seen him in a while cool anything else you guys want to touch

on can I ask Dima just a question from our community um what's your like favorite psychedelics out of like the many the many that exist and and why it's hard to give one answer right because everything is very context specific right and uh uh depends on what's your perceived intention right sometimes you feel isolated and alone and then taking MDMA is can be amazing right sometimes you want to deal with some difficult emotions uh and then let's say something like ketamin and fiveo can be very uh

opening emotionally opening combination sometimes you want to meditate deeply or whatever right like so it's really about the context it's hard to pick one I uh 5 Meo DMT right is a very powerful tool that I've gotten to appreciate more and more uh and it's really awesome that it's not criminalized in Canada and it's actually available in those mushroom stores there and uh so it's very powerful right so of course it's always very important that people approach things carefully and gently right that's kind of one of the big things is I always kind of like to say that you know life will inevitably [ __ ] your hard so why don't you be gentle with yourself and you know

because difficult stuff will happen anyway right so gentleness is an important aspect of uh how how life has approached here now so yeah there's that but I mean tocb I love TCB I think it's awesome even though I haven't taken it in a long time and there are so many fun cool things to play with carefully uh you know responsibly if you will and uh yeah thank you so much for sharing that Demo First of all um and I I'm personally also really interested in 5 Meo uh and think much more research should be should be funded so actually know what use cases can I apply if I have meod mt4 and like what is the like what ises some what does the data say

what people are experiencing um I mean so when people meet God right like how the [ __ ] do you measure that all right on a scale of 1 to 10 how much was you know how deeply did you meet God but yes of course human mind will find a way to try to measure stuff yeah I was like you know 60% into feeling like connecting with God do you and and I actually have an interesting Community question that might also be a nice way to run it off um so do you think that people need to hang up the phone after they've gotten

the message uh this is I think something that is often discussed in psychedelics is like uh or do you think there's a wider way to frame this I think that always always always the only thing that happens is the only thing that can happen right so then we try to find a story that describes and says oh I should have or I should not have but that's [ __ ] because the only thing that happens is a thing that happens right and uh you know if you have an experience and then sometimes you're tempted like wow you know what I'll stay away from that for like you know next year like know my first experience was 5 I'm like wow not

going to touch it for a while that was so powerful right sometimes it opens something and then you want to continue going there sometimes you like oh you know what like that was awesome and now I just want to I don't know go to vipasana and you know vipasana can be a very powerful experience too so for me there's no answer to that right like we want to find a recipe a recipe that will take us on the prescribed path from where we are and we have suffered and unhappy and not peace ful and we'll get to and you know what there's no such path right like you know you only have this current moment and uh the emotions of that and and your actions right so everything is absolutely totally unique and subjective to you and everybody anybody had tells you that tells you you

should do this and you know or you should not do this and I I always say like thank you but you know [ __ ] you like because you've never Liv this Consciousness right you've never been in the shoes of this reality you have no idea right so I don't believe in advice as such you know like uh we can throw ideas but you know what most of the time a human who is going through something difficult I would much rather give them a hug I would you know just like you know hug them give them a glass of tea or whatever they don't need my [ __ ] advice you know they will figure it out right but you know sometimes we feel disconnected and we feel lost and you know we feel unloved and all of that and you know what let's share it love that

we have cool beautiful well I think that's a good place to maybe like ENT this conversation yeah with the instruction of like give someone a haul and uh yeah and people will figure out their own thing I think that's genuinely true right on yeah thanks guys that was really cool to chat yeah yeah no thank you so much yeah thanks Paul thanks Deo it was really great to have you on really enjoyed the conversations a little bit of a different podcast and we generally do but I think still kind of like a lot of connections to decentralization and I think all of the values that you know people sort of try to realize why when working on these Technologies or exploring uh psychedelic

so thanks so much for coming on yeah thank you guys thank you so much for having having us