Proof of Letting Go: The Story of POAP | Patricio Worthalter - POAP

Transcript

I wanted to start, like we tend to start most of these episodes, with a little bit about who you were before crypto and focusing as always on the podcast on the human side of things. Were you searching for something? Was there any kind of thread in your experiences before crypto that kind of pushed you then to be here now?

>> Of course there are. That's very easy for me to answer though it cannot be a little bit. >> Okay. >> It has to be much more than that because for the full picture to make sense. >> Yes. >> You need a comprehensive view on why I land in crypto. >> Okay. >> So I've been born in 87 in Buenocidis. >> Yes. So figure that by the time I was 20, this is 2007. >> Yeah. >> Um and to put it on a timeline, it is um 2009 where when Bitcoin launches.

>> Yeah. >> So um I am 21 22. I hear of Bitcoin. It may have been $5. I was a computer technician. Um, I was in tech, not in deep tech or hardcore tech, but I like tech. Tech was my life, not just I like tech. It was my career choice, my life chose my identity. I only had friends in tech. >> Um, unfortunately, I was very busy trying to survive as a computer technician because that's a it wasn't kind of a career choice. It was a fallback like I mean my country was in a extremely painful economic uh situation a couple years before we had the

greatest sovereign default in the history of defaults. I mean I your country had also had extremely painful economic situations but >> it's not a competition but ours may have been the worst of all time until others >> and my parents very weren't very wealthy and I never finished high school. I was an awful student. So I start fixing computers and although I hear of Bitcoin and I find it exciting, it was impossible to understand it for me because early Bitcoin you didn't have um explanations for normies. >> Mhm.

>> You didn't even have explanation for non-cryptography people. Like you had to be a cryptography person. So I'm like yeah this is extremely exciting. I wish I had time for it. Yeah. >> But I can't do it. Couple years go by. Um, Bitcoin had um it first pump 2013 and it is a couple hundred and like this has to be really exciting and I had a couple more minutes. I do a new attempt and I still can't get it like creating a wallet and sync the notes and such and not that it was so hard that I couldn't understand it but the bandwidth I had available for a canoe thing on the still survival mode that I had >> it wasn't available like my whole capacity was dedicating to surviving and

the way I was surviving like I didn't have healthcare network or anything I didn't talk much to my family >> so I unfortunately missed did it again. Now, in 2015 or 14 or late 13, I don't remember. >> Uh, one of our clients um gets this classical ransomware viruses that get your files hostage and you have to pay a ransom in Bitcoin. So, I am forced to learn about Bitcoin and I find it fascinating um because eventually I understand it. I go to the Bitcoin embassy in Buenosirus, the Bitcoiners because at that time Buenosirus had Argentina had um financial censorship.

So you couldn't wire money abroad >> and Bitcoin was such a magical solution for that that there was already like a co-working space only of Bitcoin people may have been one of the best the the first in the world and possibly the best too. >> Yes. >> And the Bitcoiners are pretty kind to me and they explain everything and they give me all the information needed to get hooked. >> Yes. >> And I also buy the Bitcoin for the rams. I pay the rams. I get the decryption key back. My client's happy. I'm happy. It was all mashical. Uh, and I'm like, this is going to be the future. I need to learn more about this. So, I start going to the Bitcoin embassy. Um, somehow, I'm not going into much detail. I could one day, but it's not so important right now.

>> I hear of Ethereum. It launched like a month before. So, this is around half of 2015. >> Yes. >> And >> I also find it interesting for the wrong reasons. I admit I didn't understand what it was. I thought it was something else like war computer. I kind of assume not exactly Amazon or cloud computing >> but I didn't know that the only thing you compute were like 24 kilobytes smart contracts I couldn't understand a smart contracts consensus running you know it was all very foreign but the illusion was exciting I think this is very common for all of us like nobody understood ethereum right the first time especially that early >> um and this is where something relevant to you and this context happens um my

life as a computer technician was putting me on a dark place because I was already 10 years a computer technician. I was pretty burned out and it wasn't getting better. >> Okay. >> Um I started alone >> after 10 years of working permanently and constantly with all my energy, never taking holidays, missing my grandparent funerals. I really couldn't go to a funeral because if I didn't work for a day, I couldn't eat the next maybe or >> okay >> maybe not literally but conceptually I was fully vacated to survive.

>> Um and that was killing me. My mental health was a disaster. My girlfriend at the time had broken up with me in tears because she really didn't want to be second to my work and she was like 10th to my work and everything else. And that was also pretty emotionally harmful because I really wanted to live my life with her. >> Yes. >> And I was like I couldn't keep my most precious possession because I'm so deep into this company that doesn't even make money and had like 20 employees but had no autonomy. So the 20 reported to me it was a disaster. So I do something crazy and I take half of my net worth. Yes.

>> Which may have been like $50,000. Like I I by then I was already 27 or something. So I had worked >> so hard that I made $50,000 >> and half of it I used to buy ether. >> Okay. >> That was around $1. >> Yeah. >> I didn't know what I was doing. But the idea of something that could take me out of the mess I was into was appealing. And I was like, I either wasted this money and my life goes on. >> Yep. Or >> or maybe something takes me out of the hole.

>> And couple years after Ether starts to appreciate because after I bought it, it continued going down. >> Yes. >> And I managed to leave such painful state on which I was of that burn permanent burnout, inability to do anything else but also needing to survive. >> Yes. And that combination of factors is what makes me a blockchain person. Like a country that was very friendly to crypto assets. >> Yes. >> Um an ecosystem that was happy to get me on boarded. Yeah. They were very welcoming. The Bitcoiners then got very hostile when I sold the Bitcoin for Ether.

>> And they were hostile for years. >> Okay. >> Um they were extremely hostile. Like they would make fun of me at the Bitcoin embassy because they knew that I sold the Bitcoin for Ether. >> Okay. And I guess that's how we landed at the beginning of my crypto journey. Like it was a little hot pot of different circumstances that drove me to do irrational actions. Was it did you feel a sense of dread or excitement or was it mainly something needs to get me out of this space that I am in mentally? I have bought into the little delusion of the many things that Ethereum could power.

>> Okay. >> The first couple years of Ethereum um you could hear anyone that understood a little and had some um public speaking talent >> pitching all kinds of dreams >> and new ways of doing commerce and business and identity and social. And it was inspiring because >> although we wen in the pandemonium that we are now with the platforms. >> Yes. >> You could see that big big tech in 2015 was already way stronger than it was optimal.

>> Yes. >> And deplatforming was a thing. >> Yes. >> And um arbitrary abusive situations based on your culture or skin color or whatever were common place. Kind of the same thing they are happening now every day. they were starting to happen. >> So the idea of a system that could allow for fair disintermediated >> uh transactions and >> communication and everything else >> was exciting. I don't know if I was thrilled because not understanding like given I I try to be a person of science and not understanding the thing I wouldn't allow myself to be over optimistic if I don't get it.

>> Okay. So I wasn't so thrilled like I my buy in for Ethereum was with plenty of caution. >> Okay, >> which I am very proud of because it was as as prices went up it was very easy to get high on your own supply and buy some that was around even in 2017. um I have participated in many ICOs and financially they may have been great but once I understood that this technology didn't have what it needed for those dreams to actually materialize what the ICO merchants were promoting like I don't play this game

anymore okay >> all the ICOs that I have invested or maybe most of them I genuinely believe and I was a complete fool but I genuinely believe that they could build what they were successful like either >> call it decentralized computation or arbitration systems or Dows or decentralized whatever was fancy that week >> um once I understood that the gap between the dream and the execution was impossible to cross >> yes >> I was like I don't do this anymore >> okay >> so I never bought so much the dream um that I was willing to overlook their

truth. >> Okay. So you were cautiously coming into the space and kind of okay let's invest initially well some time to understand it as well but then also money. How did you start building? >> Uh this is a fun story. I like this story. After a couple the first couple years 2015 7 15 and 17 >> yes >> my full focus was education I didn't like not understanding >> okay >> so I spend all my energy going to courses meeting people digging into Reddit and that felt great because it was very uncomfortable to be invested in

this thing not knowing what it was I didn't I didn't even dare to call it investing because >> this is not what That wasn't an investing like an invest an investment is something you do with information and expectations and I was just desperate for a change and I toss money at a >> uh roulette. >> Yes. >> Um so I wouldn't call it invested but I was invested. So the first couple years I used um for educating myself. Yes. And I eventually plateaued >> because my ability to get more concepts on such abstract concepts >> and spaces and without resources because still in 2016 the resources are all awful like they are all designed for

computer scientist or safer punks and such and I was neither. >> Okay. >> So I get bored or not literally bored but I find myself slightly purposeless. >> Okay. Um and I noticed that in the hierarchy of the Ethereum social contract. >> Yes. >> Um the higher tiers were like core developers. >> Yes. >> They were like the higher the most praised people. Then you had some um academics maybe that may have not been core developers but they had so much to offer and they were praised all around and there were different you know the layers of the cast

in in Ethereum. I don't know if it's derogative to call it like social >> like participants or like uh builders. Oh yeah. When I say cast, it's like in India where if you are born in >> Oh, I see a certain like group. Let's say groups >> and and there's little social mobility. Yes. Like if you are born a core developer, you die a core developer. If you are born a VC, you >> move up and I see I see what you're saying. I was in a fairly bottomish tier. Like I was kind of token trader because I was buying and selling crap trying to make my way out of >> um financial hardship.

>> Yes. >> And maybe I was an enthusiast, but that again is not something that ecosystem finds very valuable. And I noticed um that there was a smaller group of people with little members that were fairly highly priced and those were the builders. Um and you know who love the builders the most? Um the VCs. Um the VCs love builders again 2016 17 because it was sorely needed like Ethereum was supposedly offering a blank canvas for building all these mach and nobody was there for building them.

>> Okay. >> Um so I think I could become a DAB developer and that could be great for my position in an industry that has already flattened out for me like I wasn't growing anymore. >> Um, and this is like still like a couple years before I start POA because PO starts in 2018, but I noticed that being a builder might be the highest status I could acquire. >> Okay. >> Um, so a couple things keep happening. We had the craziest bubble of all time by the time eventually we had crazy in 2017. I ride that that wave. Um doing it very crazily like going to Hong Kong and Singapore and Chicago and London trying

to chase the latest hottest deal and I landed some of them. I have crazy stories that I forally I can't say on the record because >> I'm not proud of them. >> Okay. But if you know like if you were in 2017 and you talk about crazy stories related to ICOs and such, you can imagine what I'm talking about. I've done a lot of that. >> Okay. >> Um when the bubble bursts >> yes >> I find myself in a little crisis because the consensus of the blockchain industry shifts big time and it shifts to a position on which Ethereum was a failed experiment.

>> Okay. the BD the Bitcoin media conglomerate meaning Coindesk and Cointelegraph and other outlets were installing successfully installing the view that Ethereum had promised a lot and it had a very effective leader that created a very great cal that pumped a lot but ultimately Bitcoin was the only blockchain because the smart contracts were too complex and Ethereum had lots of shortcomings like proof of estate wasn't happening and proof of work wasn't sustainable and the tooling was hard and one good one true thing that the Bitcoiners said it's like Ethereum is 3 years old or more depending when you come the beginning but it's been three full years of mainet >> and not the slightest smallest promise

has been fulfilled there were literally zero dabs agore never launched dik never launched maker didn't launch some said they were going to launch what had launched was cryptokitties that ended have been extremely traumatizing experience for most because the few earlier ones that bought them cheap were very excited but 90% of them lost cash and like actual real cash. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So the Bitcoiners weren't wrong saying that Ethereum was in a failure route. So I asked a couple friends very close that were also deeply invested on Ethereum not as I was but still. Yes. What can we build that legitimizes this tech that can be used to say see that you can

build software on this crazy platform >> here it is >> that actually does something we made a way harder uh goal it wasn't just building software because there were software like cryptokitties was there >> yes >> um it the goal that we set ourself to was we have to build something that uses blockchain for the right reasons >> okay >> meaning that if it And if it could be built with other tech stock then it's not it >> right. >> And it has to be nonspeculative because we kind of knew that you could build better casinos.

>> Yes. >> But that wasn't what Ethereum was promising to the world. Um >> was that an important piece for you? >> It was fundamental. >> Okay. >> We wouldn't build something if we didn't find something that was nonspeculative. >> Okay. >> And and we set the bar very high and it gets harder. Um, it also had to be regulatory compliance worldwide, >> okay? >> Because there were plenty of promises about things you could build on Ethereum and some were real like you could build darknet markets. Dark net markets were a huge thing back then and privacy system for doing illegal stuff, but that wouldn't be legitimizing in the way we were after.

>> Mhm. >> Uh, and there were a couple other constraints uh like it couldn't be regulatory arbitrage and um it should be for the whole humanity, not for the crypto people. So it was a very tall uh >> order >> order that we designed >> and I'm very proud that after heavy brainstorming we found something to build because since a very early age I was obsessed or highly interested into the concept of preservation of digital assets.

>> Okay. When I was a computer technician, I always wanted to keep all the versions of the software I installed in case I want it for what reason or even if I didn't want it. I just wanted to be able to access the software even if it's not for sale anymore or if I took pictures like I had a digital camera at the time and I wanted a system to preserve them and the cloud is not it because the cloud is someone else's computer and your own computer is not safe enough because what happens if your house gets on fire so digital preservation preservation of digital assets was always in the back of my mind like since I was a teenager so 15 years before blockchains.

>> Why do you think that is? Do you know >> autism? I mean it has to be that I like trains. I like computer. Like I love trains. Trains are my passion. >> Okay. >> They always were. >> Okay. >> And I like computers beyond I can't explain. >> Yes. >> And I combine a couple of those things. And I also have separation anxiety. So if you touch my stuff, I I get freaked out. >> Okay. So when a software company released a new software and didn't let you download the other software, I could get extremely anxious. So I wanted to be able to preserve what I own.

>> Okay. >> So the dream of true ownership of digital assets that Ethereum have promised since before it launched was like this is I need this to be happy. Like I won't ever be happy if I don't have this. >> Okay, I love this. >> So it connects in a way that at the time it was a dream come true for me. I even before blockchain existed, I made attempts at POAP. >> Yes, >> that weren't POP. They didn't look like POP. But what I was after was the ability to preserve my memories in an effective, verifiable, credibly neutral, reliable, permanent, immutable way.

>> Yes. >> Um I failed spectacularly because I didn't know how to do it. But the dream was there, >> was always there. The vision was always there. All of those ingredients. So, so the idea of building po and I will explain what POP is for the crazy of you that if you're listening this and you don't know what's POAP, you do are going this in the wrong order. Like this podcast, you don't listen before you learn what's POAP. >> Okay, >> but I will still explain what's POAP. Okay. >> Uh, POAP started meaning proof of attendance protocol and it is a little platform based on a smart contracts that lets anyone get a little digital collectible in the shape of an ERC721

NFT to remember something they've done, an event they have attended like a wedding or a conference and it has a time stamp. And because of these qualities of the blockchain, it's impossible to counter fate and it's indisputably authentic and you can have a verifiable proof of things that happen about it and you can also trade it because blockchains. Um, so the idea of starting this platform seeking to legitimize Ethereum to get myself busy and increase my social capital.

>> Mhm. And in the side effect of helping my bucks pump, it all made sense. >> I mean, legitimizing the technology, it's almost an full efism of making my pump. >> Makes perfect sense. Yes. >> And this was common place. I can name more friends that I have fingers that have devoted to Ethereum to make their bucks pump. Okay, fair. Okay, so POA app was your way of legitimizing the technology, making your bags pump, >> following my dreams.

>> Following your dreams, solving all of that uh intersection of things that you want to maintain the memories and preserve digital assets. How? because POA app became and I want to hear the journey from your side but I mean our whole life we're at ECC9 now pretty much since its existence it's POAP has you know been part of our journey across events AC meeting people meeting new people how many times we have met them at all of these different

events around the world and to your point celebrating other things and creat creating these PO apps. What has that journey been like for you to see it grow and to see that idea that you have check the boxes that you wanted it to check? Were there super hard moments? Were there moments where you were like, you know what, this isn't working. I'm going to quit. This was a bad idea. >> Um, there were both. I think my personality, I don't know if this is a blessing or a curse. Um I tend to be extremely volatile in my emotions. So it happens a lot that I'm extremely thrilled about something. Okay. And some things could happen and I get extremely

down and this has always been my lifetime and it doesn't look like it will change ever. Okay. So certainly >> um on the journey of pop-up there were extremely high moments of happiness that I could have imagined. It was I don't think if this is what they call type two happiness like during the time it was uh a very crazy dance. So it's not that you have complete consciousness of how good things are good for you. Yes. >> Like for example an extremely high point on the early days of what was doing 9 in Osaka.

um making it to Osaka with a product that could serve the scale of the con 5 successfully and landing nailing the whole user experience. How clunky the technology was at the time >> and still getting people to mean the NFTs and to feel happy about them and to not land into the endless pitfalls that the crypto UX had at that earlier day >> at the time. Yeah, >> that was an impressive feat that I'm surprised we achieved. It was mostly the team I hired for doing that I have little I mean I still had massive credit to take but >> we learned plenty of very hard things to nail. So that was an extremely exciting time but running it was so stressful as well

>> that it was very hard to capitalize the happiness while it was happening. >> Okay. to fully be there and enjoy it. >> Yeah, because there was little enjoyment during it. And even when Devcon 5 wrapped up, I think you were there too. We got a cyclone so we couldn't even go home right? >> So it was only later that I have enjoyed it. >> Okay. Once you were out of the typhoon path, >> that was for example one very high. Now, one low, it wasn't as equivalently low when the pandemic hit.

>> Yes. >> Um, po was only in real life and we're like, okay, this is the end of POP like there's nothing we can do. >> Yes. >> And I was sad but not too sad because po wasn't so much in my life at when the pandemic hit >> early 2020. Oh, it's a two year old project on which I have invested two years and it was nice and such and maybe this is the end >> but it didn't feel as other lows felt later. Okay, >> so it was a little low but kind of a miracle. We do an implementation in some metaverse like decentraland and sandbox and others that no longer exist.

uh not not not only we started growing quickly after we achieved KPIs that we only expected to achieve in our most ambitious cases. >> Okay. >> So it was a very shortlive time of despair. >> Okay. So you saw it essentially okay the world has shut down and then doing metaverse stuff >> and and it's booming and on a parallel track but it's all the same track NFTs start booming yes >> and we were positioned in a place of privilege because >> we were doing NFDs years before >> and we had a product kind of the only product that non-crypto people could use

>> because all other products you couldn't use unless you were an expert. Uh they needed you to have a funded account popup. You needed no money. >> Yes. >> So we got lots of newer entrance that were getting in because they were locked down on their places and that was also very great. It was very hard to handle the attention. Um, >> okay. >> It's kind of the the beginning of the course regarding the um mainstream assumption that all NFDs are speculative assets.

>> Yes, >> we weren't totally aware of how bad things could get. >> Okay. >> Because yeah, there are plenty of NFDs that are speculative assets. Ours are not. And lots of people understood it. some didn't and ultimately that can be identified as the cardinal scene for the NFT industry and it's the death of POAB as we know it. Um, POAP as a platform that uses NFTs for preserving memories can't succeed if the global population believe that NFTs are

speculative assets that you use for wasting for wasting money and energy. >> And that's what they believed. Yeah. >> For good reason. >> No. And there was a big like the movement and the push against NFTTS. So you remember there was it affects the environment. It's bad. Some of it some of it was deserved, not all of it. But that's not >> what makes it be the cardinal scene. >> Okay, >> that that was misinformed narratives being installed by actors with who knows which agendas.

>> Okay, >> but that's not the cardinal sin in the sense that things got so much worse. I mean, that was very bad. >> Yes. >> And it continues to be. What but what makes it be the cardinal scene is that NFTs have the classical waves of technology adoption. Okay. Like on the early days you have the investors and their friends and they get some others to try it out and then you get some early adopters that they hear of it and that was like in 2017 when land >> when popup launches in 2019 NFTs were still a very small circle that may have had 100. You had super rare, you had >> Yeah. And they were minimal.

>> Yes. >> Rare >> at the time. Yes. >> And OpenC was already a thing and and Dapper Labs of course. Yeah. >> But were how many professionals were there? A hundred maybe. >> I start doing POAP. The first year of POAP, the ecosystem grows to maybe a thousand 2,000. Um during the pandemic the NFT market users of NFTs grows to approximately a million wallets. Who knows whether it's a million people but there were high six figures people 700,000 who knows >> yes >> 99% of them got into the industry believing that it was kind of a system

on which you put money in and somehow sometime you get more money out. That's a cardinal scene. >> Okay. >> Um that continues happening. There were a huge amount of promoters that were installing this vision either with their 10K PFP project or their equivalent thingy DeFi also did plenty of NFTts >> and that created a whole generation of adoption like the outer ring of adoption >> that >> genuinely believe it's not that they knew they were gambling. They honestly believe that somehow this was a magical internet money system that you got more money out than what you put. They they may have never heard of ponsai schemes or they didn't care about them. But unlike some other ponai schemes or other

of the classical crypto dynamics um the offloading of the bugs yes from the large chest whales happens all at once. It wasn't like early bitcoiners like bitcoin is safer punks of loading into very early believers of certain things and then some speculators and there is a fairly stable within bitcoin standard of loading of bugs that makes it up to these days like it's impressive that many have gotten Michael Sailor to be their buyer of last resort and impressive mad man that sailor is he got Wall Street to [snorts] be the buyer of

his bags. So this was a very healthy or at least credible process. In NFTs all the K and the 10K PFPs and other large or smaller actors they all dump at once. >> Yeah. >> So this foot chain of bugs pumping halts >> and all the outer circle or the back holders get absolutely traumatized. It's a slaughter. >> Yeah. And I don't think NFDs will ever move on from this moment the stigma that has been created about NFDs and crypto as well because >> okay >> PA it's a platform within a platform and our platform which is the Ethereum

blockchain. >> Yes. >> Is also in a deep crisis. >> Okay. >> And it's also suffering for massive stigma. There's large pockets of population. >> Yes. that believe that everything blockchains it's memecoin memecoin like tech >> okay >> tech that only exists for making things like what memecoins did or do for the world and they are wrong but they are so many and they are so confident on their belief that it's literally impossible for anyone [clears throat] to make them >> rever this vision and this is why I think >> it is pointless to try to get NFTs as we knew them like ERC 721 tokens 1155 or

other forms of NFD >> to be adopted like in this generation maybe in 20 years time someone can give it a new shot but they are going to be a different type of NFDS because the year1 standard was obsolid anyways >> so you think the NFTts as they are they're done for now >> I don't think you can find a person that tells you that they are alive maybe a po collector there are some that don't want to accept what's going on. But >> NFD does not exist as a space anymore. In HCC uh six or seven, the one of the hype, one out of three talks >> had NFD content or were full about NFTs.

>> Yes. >> Last year, I think out of like 400 pieces of content >> that HCC produced, there were three about NFTs. I don't think there's one this year. And this is a huge FCC. It's hard to argue about them not being dead. I mean, you can say the other day, >> um, the founders of Larval Appabs, the creator of Crypto Punks, >> launched a new collection called Queen or something with art blocks. It's the last curated art blocks. And it sold like $15 million worth of pieces of art.

So, it's not literally dead. like it literally no longer exists but it doesn't exist on a way that it's socially relevant out of a very small circle. Even this week they had our basel Hong Kong and a few months before they had our basel Miami and there was an impressive effort called 010 which is like the strongest NFT art people doing their best show. Yes. And there is for example this guy Shak Batcher who's an amazing communicator and he's does he did a mind-blowing implementation of blockchains that I'm very excited about.

And there was also people that did an extremely exciting thing with robots and AI and NFTs. BL is also an extremely good proponent of NFTs. So I don't say they're literally dead, but I also don't think that in this generation, this way, in this format, they will grow in relevance. >> Okay. What does that then mean for POA app? >> Um, POP has announced a couple weeks ago that we are putting in maintenance mode. >> Yeah, >> putting in maintenance mode meant we are setting expectations for attendees of HCC and our community.

We have a community that's so passionate that I'm worried about them almost. I mean that has been my responsibility as well. This is also why people like POA because >> plenty of crypto people understood POA as their safe place. >> I made it be the safest place you could make and they love that. So we wanted them to know that we are not working on growing POP as they know them and we are refocusing our energy on building something new >> a continuation of pop-up >> okay >> that fixes many of the problems that made POP unfit for global scale >> okay

do you feel how does that make does it make You feel like the project is naturally evolving or do you feel you're almost putting to rest the old version? >> There is a failure. We we call it by its full name. We have failed on our vision. >> Okay. >> So POP has two stages expansion and contraction. >> Yes. >> I start in 2018. Yeah. >> And it's all expansion. Yes. >> Until approximately 22. >> Okay.

around the FTX collapse. Yes, that was shortly after the three arrows collapse and such, NFTs start bleeding and so did we. So we were expanding a lot until the FDX collapse more or less and the expansion made us believe that we had a little chance because when I started POW success meant legitimizing Ethereum. >> Yes. >> And we got it. We believe that we had legitimized it and because we've done that we walked and others could run eventually maker did lounge and compound

lounge >> an agur lounge although that didn't go anywhere but then poly market lounge so we we stopped feeling that we needed to pursue legitimizing ethereum by doing this digital collective okay we did >> so you in your mind you had done the thing the main thing okay >> and it was fully successful I actually remember the day when I said this is a new beginning. It was during the pandemic um after Defi summer um we have made a pop for the Super Bowl. Okay.

>> I was like there's no greater legimization according to what I wanted because the legization I wanted was just there's something good that you can build and you can actually use it and you can mean this collectible. I was never thinking about global scale. It was absolutely reckless to think about global scale. It's equivalent as if you're building an aircraft, you have flown one mile and then you say I want to cross the Atlantic. It was pointless to think about it. >> Okay. >> So when I achieve my first ambitious goal, I look back and I am what do I do? At that time I was still kind of only me. I didn't have a team. I had an outsourced team and some friends that help me, but it was very easy to wrap it up. And after several weeks of debating,

I decide to give it a new spin. >> Okay. >> And renew my ambition and make it it be that system that I dreamed of that would let me get theial collectibles when I visit somewhere. And I even >> post on Twitter, I only work at POAP because I want to mint po. If I could mint po because po would exist without me, I wouldn't work at POP. would be retired and showing my life, following my passions and minting these little circles whenever I could. Unfortunately, PO is not major enough for it to exist on its own. So, I still have to run it.

Okay. >> And that was kind of a new beginning. Okay. >> And that's when I that's that's a project I failed. So, the first first Shoa was a complete success. >> Okay. Second >> second Shoa to call it somehow. This is the first time I call it this name. So I'm not sure if it's going to fit technically correctly, but we will see. >> Second Shen Po has the goal of making it be globally scale and in a way that kind of succeeded too because during peak NFD summer >> we had more top 500 clients at Goldman Sachs and American Express and Porsche, Mercedes-Benz and you name them >> than we could count. It was a complete

success. What we failed at was at making it be self- sustainable. >> Okay. >> Um when the tourists leave, >> yes, >> we retreat back to cryptonatives. >> Yes. >> Which felt counterintuitive. >> Okay. >> Because we're like, we are building a global scale product for the whole humanity to preserve their memories. Why are we retreating to crypto native that are all fully acquired? They couldn't be happier with POAP. POAP was already giving them all the happiness they could get.

>> And that could be identified as a red flag. Maybe that was the time to shut down. >> Okay. >> Um this was around um the deconst. >> So 2024. >> Three. >> Four. >> No, maybe it was three. It was three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. End of 2023. Yes. November. >> Yes. >> Um, we were retreating to do only web three stuff. Um, why would we do that if we were building a global scale product?

>> Okay. >> And I tell you why. Because the other option was shutting down. >> But you persisted versus accepting. Do you wish you would have done it then or not? >> I think the reasons why I persisted may have been wrong. One of the reasons I persisted was because by then we had taken BC funding. >> Okay. >> Which we didn't need it or wanted. >> Okay. Why did you take it? >> Because I thought that getting all those heavy weights behind me would help me with global scale adoption. >> Because when we've done our fund raise, >> we were so hot that I've done this stupid thing that they call Kenishian beauty contest. So I kind of made all the VCs go through a torture path to be able to get into our cup table.

>> How did that feel? >> At the point I felt extremely successful because they were not really lining behind me to put money on my pocket. Um >> did it feel powerful? >> Did you feel powerful? >> I I was never a power hungry person, but I certainly felt the hottest person in the room. Um there was one time that ABC that I hold affectionate feelings for. He invites me to a like $20 million villa in Mayorca. >> Yes. >> Where he was celebrating his 40th birthday. We were friends before. So it's not that he wanted only to be on our table.

>> Okay. >> But it was all fairly inebriating. >> Yes. >> And a little insane. And something I've done for capping the risk was instead of raising as much as I could, which could have been as high as a 100 million or something, I only raised 10. >> Why did you put that cap? >> Because I wanted to only take an amount of cash that if I lost conviction, I could give back. >> Okay? >> Like if I because >> you could tell that what was going on in the market didn't make sense. I I knew it. So I didn't want to take the cash and then finding myself in an very awful spot.

>> Okay. >> Ultimately it did happen anyways but I was very cautious of how crazy everything was going. >> Okay. >> So I I do that mistake which is one of the most common mistakes I've seen among founders. Uh I want to I don't I won't name names or maybe in 20 years time you can get me to name >> you'll write a book. Yeah. >> Uh I don't think I will ever write the book but I might be willing to disclose. stories >> like the way >> Bob Summer is doing these days with the early days of Ethereum and Richard Baron has disclosed many things he's done in the early days. I may disclose some things but the point is raising cash when you shouldn't have. It might be the

most common mistake most founders have ever done on Ethereum. >> Okay. >> Um so I've done that mistake. um we've done that crazy round and by the time we had this this strong signals that um we may have to shut down. I was like I am fully committed. I still believe on the vision. Um I think this makes all the sense in the word. There were KPIs that indicated that we should keep trying because we still had inbound for corporations. Yes. And some large media companies like >> global scale movie. Okay. uh studio. So there were signals that but they weren't strong enough that they would have funded the company sustainably. So

>> okay, >> I mean in hindsight it's very easy to say yeah you should have shut down then but also I was following my dream >> of creating these little circles and I was pinpointing every location I have traveled. I have attended >> pretty much all the East Globan events that you ever done. >> Yes. >> Many more than you. you 100%. >> Um, so I was having more or less a good time, but I never also ignored that we were always in a declining trajectory since the top.

>> Okay. >> And maybe we should have cut our losses earlier. But again, I was very obsessed with the whole thing and asked myself also, what would I do? which these days it's interesting because it's almost the same thing that the new owner of Farcastaster did say. Um Farcastaster was always on our radar. >> Okay. >> Because there were very similar goals. Okay. >> Um Farcastaster wanted to make a consumer first application for the whole world that use crypto for the right reasons. They call themselves a sufficiently decentralized social network >> and they had a good team and they were also building a web three socially if

you remember that category's name. So we close we always work closely to far. >> Okay. >> Uh earlier this year when Farcastaster decides to change the trajectory. >> Um >> then Romero the founder starts sharing little tidbits of why he decided to pursue other life missions. And at a point the new acquirer of um forecast that's called re um that was already on the ecosystem. He's a somewhat accomplished found like he worked at meta during a time that he was kind of a big shot.

>> Yes. At a point he's asked something like why do you take this burden that not even the own his own creator wants because when Dan and Baroon leave Park there it's like if the founders that have port >> port 5b and and they had $150 million in the bank >> and they believe this is pointless. We don't work on this anymore and we will instead go work at defi or ci where they work now. Why would you accept this? They asked. Yes.

>> And the guy is pretty much like what do you want me to do with my life? I don't have a better challenge. I don't have a better usage of my energy. >> Okay. >> This is all public on forecasting and something that he told me. I have never talked to him directly >> and that was going on with me as well. >> Okay. So I kind of knew that POP was not going to succeed the way we had set up ourselves to succeed but >> but I didn't have a better idea and I had a little hope and I also had like a 50 people payroll and other responsibility.

>> So you had a responsibility. >> It wasn't easy to quit. >> Okay. >> And we had ideas as well. That's important too. There were things that we wanted to ship that we thought could be um catalysts for growth. >> Okay. Uh, it wasn't all lost. I wasn't doing this out of momentum. I couldn't just done it out of momentum. >> Okay. Do you Because everybody knows you with the orange jacket that has been your brand for so long.

Is the hanging that coat up symbolic of POA app going into maintenance or is that >> exactly it is what it means >> it's that >> um I have built my whole personality around popp that's how they all knew me and I want to make perfectly clear that we have closed the chapter >> I still have the jacket and I love it and I will probably I hope I continue using it but I need to communicate in a kioali that the chapters is done. I don't have a Pop to give you. Um, I'm sorry things didn't go the way we all wanted them to go, but this is how it happened. I'm nearly 40. I need to start a new chapter.

>> Okay. Do you feel that's good for you to put that kind of like, okay, this is done, packed up there, and now I can move by these symbolic things I did. >> One of the smartest things I ever done. >> Okay. out of the many mistakes I made making clear that this chapter is done and not dragging along and letting go um I'm very proud of how it has come out. I mean this is the first day of HCC but I was having some little anxiety about how to deal with people because people are heartbroken like they literally tell me that they are heartbroken and you could see their sadness on their faces because also POP was kind of the last bastion of nondeserency

in blockchains like nowadays you cannot be a blockchain enthusiast and have a community of belonging that's not financialized. >> Yes. So for hundreds of people, POAP was the safe place on which they could find likemind people. They could come to HCC and they could talk about POAB and they could show which poabs they had and moments they have uploaded. Yes. >> And and this was >> so common place for hundreds of people that the idea that this won't happen anymore. We are not we are not even shutting down but the idea that we have closed a chapter.

>> I'm I don't I guess I'm happy that nobody has shed a tear yet but it's been very hard for me to face because this they they are a huge amount and they are having a very tough time. This is not something they are they are not digesting it well. They since we made the announcement until which been like 3 weeks ago until today they were thinking whether they would see me or not in HCC and when they saw me they couldn't even articulate what they wanted to communicate. I mean they don't even need to do it. I know it. I know them.

>> Yes. Can you feel it? Yes. >> But they are overwhelmed to a point that I'm glad that I'm not using the shet because the attachment they got to the shet and the patch and the Hello Kitty bag. There were a couple goodies that I made this anchor because what happened this is kind of being a victim of my success. Um >> the reason why I've done all this show is because on the very beginning of POA I had the very tough challenge of explaining why a POA was a superior digital collectible. >> Okay.

>> And why is that? Because NFTs have all these great qualities. But for people that are not expert in blockchains or even if they are but they are not collect people or whatever if you never connected the dots it was a little like Ethereum was for me in the early days if someone didn't explain it to me I would have understood it. >> Yes. >> So I came up with this model of making people anchor to items because people understand collectibles like physical collectibles and they go to museums which is all about collectibles that's why they call it collection. So I started giving them the patches like I don't know where I don't know where the camera is. Um these patches became an insane obsession for many. We've done more than 50 different models. Each of them has taken a huge amount of energy

for them to be pretty. And I was so effective making people feel emotions about these little collectibles that now the emotions are too strong because that was also kind of the secret sauce for people to love po. We just anchor them to something that made them feel something. >> Okay. >> And for many it was feeling acceptance into a group or feeling listened. One of my strategies was that I would go to any event and I could publish Find Me in Japan and get a collectible >> and I have hung out with a huge amount of people that had nobody to hang out.

>> I have gone to New Delhi. I have gone to Bangalore. I would see very shy people or or developers that had massive imposter syndrome and I could help them with their projects or finding capital. So the emotions these people got when they got the pop-ups were emotions that made them anchor to pop extremely strongly and we were very proud of this. It was almost a secret source for making pop the most adopted and loved ecosystem among other things because there was a 100 people team behind me helping making this >> but we were so effective but when they have to think that po is no more >> it's like >> oh it it cannot be how could poa be no more I thought it would exist forever

and some call me out and hold me a cont and tell me you tell me that this collectible was going to exist forever thanks you to blockchains And well that's half true because it is in the blockchain >> but that's not what they mean. what they what they wanted to believe is that the pleasure they would get when they review their collection and all those things could keep coming indefinitely >> and as much as I also wanted that if we cannot make it be a sustainable organization which we can >> yes >> then that won't happen >> right >> okay in closing is there anything and thank you so much for sharing all of this and I think it gives so much

insight into what it's been like for you and why you created POAP and how you um navigated the whole journey. Is there anything that you've never said out loud about >> um I mean I'm sure there is um [laughter] there's something I didn't say out loud because it's a recent thought. >> Okay. Um um which is as I said our platforms platform Ethereum blockchain >> yes >> it's on a deep crisis >> because Ethereum is plus 10 years old. >> Yeah. And still the promises that the community or the leaders or some have made about what it would do for the world are not

materializing. And the direction on which the industry and the ecosystem and the network seem to be going is not the direction on any of those idealistic goals materialize. >> Okay. Stable coins are an amazing product of Ethereum, but I don't think any of the early believers have sign up for Ethereum to shave a little basis points on a large head funds balance sheet >> or to accelerate a little the settlement time of Western Union.

>> Mhm. and the dreams of fair systems that could help the disenfranchised and and the abused be empowered to give agency >> to global populations >> I don't see any of that happening >> so I am a little worried that the community is not reflecting enough on this >> okay >> the leaders of the community continue the ones that remain that aren't many from that time. continue trying to optimize a little the block times and the block size and to reduce the latency and maybe to increase the bandwidth and

to add new cryptography up codes and maybe even to upgrade the whole consensus mechanism which is a magnificent goal but I don't think any of that will provide the traction for Ethereum to fulfill its promises which by the way it's not even an Ethereum problem. I kind of feel that this is a blockchain problem. Bitcoin is not fulfilling the promises nor Solana seems to be. I have spent quite some time in Solana lately. I found fascinating um execution like they've been successful at many things but I also feel that they are a little desperate uh despair

um about not finding quality product market fit. um internet capital markets it doesn't looks like it's working out. >> Okay. >> The consumer offering with the phones they have launched and other products is not making it. Apparently hopefully it will. >> Okay. >> Um but you're concerned >> this is a major problem like this is not an Ethereum problem. This is a blockchain problem. There's a little um hopefully a low chance, but there is a chance that in 20 or 40 years, those that are alive, if it's not if it's not us, look back >> and see blockchains as something that existed since early 2000s to maybe late

2030s, but ultimately a technology that has been born on a flash of excitement, but ultimately was a flash in the pan. And not only this can happen and it's possible that it happened, it has happened for example with um the supersonic aircraft like the Concord. >> You had the Concord in the 50s and 60s being an impressive promise of very fast travel and it did lounge. >> Yes. >> And it did transport a huge amount of people >> uh at very fast speeds. There's one guy that has taken the Concord over several hundred times.

>> Okay. But ultimately >> it didn't >> it wasn't something humanity wanted the way it was designed. >> And I feel the Concord has flown for the last time in the early 2000s. It might be that blockchain s in the mid90s of the Concord. >> Okay. By mid '90s, the consortia that built the Concord and the owners of them kind of knew that they wouldn't be ever more adopted that they were, but they already had the sunken cost and >> they were still trying, but there were little hope. That's where I think blockchain seem to be now.

>> Okay. >> Permissionless blockchains because permission blockchains or federated blockchains or fake blockchains like Hyperlid, those are booming. >> Okay. Wow. I mean, we need to wrap it. I did. I did. I did. >> You could have wrapped it up earlier. >> Listen, I I wanted to get your thoughts on things and I wanted to get your feelings, but thank you so much for joining. >> Thank you for the space. >> Of course, my pleasure. Um, and it was great to hear your story and looking forward to seeing what you do next. I'm hoping the next chapter is better than the one that just closed.

>> Let's go. Thank you, Patricia.