Progress and Pitfalls on the Path to Decentralized Identity

Transcript

hello and welcome everyone my name is peter robinson and this is the ethereum engineering group meetup so today i've got dr paul ashley who's going to tell us about decentralized a decentralized ids and the path to actually getting there and getting it to work so paul why don't you introduce yourself well thanks peter yeah so my background is identity privacy security that area i've been working in that area for about 30 years now and um about eight years ago um i helped start a company called anonymity labs which was a you know focused on privacy and identity and security i guess those three and we have a an office at the gold

coast with about 50 maybe between 50 and 55 software engineers and we build a an api platform a platform where we build sdks and sample apps and documentation and things so people will be able to consume a whole bunch of different technologies around that identity privacy security space for their application developers and one of the areas that we've been building over the last couple of years is in the decentralized identity space which is why i've been kind of involved in this quite a lot in the last few years cool that's um yeah and of course you you started out as electronics engineering back 100 years ago

that's true before phd yeah a long time ago all right um please share your slides okay i will do that is it this one let's try can you see all see that okay yep looks awesome oh can i let me know when i should get going peter oh yeah please do please go ahead okay so you have a look at this so this is a presentation that i actually gave i'm recently at a conference called um the workshop on blockchain blockchain applications and fintel i was asked to do a presentation on decentralized that's popping up all over the place as

people are starting to do a lot more with you know blockchain applications and they're looking at how they can get strong identity and what it all means and so they reached out to me the workshop and said would you mind coming and presenting on this topic because i knew i'd been writing papers on it for quite a long time we've been building product in it for quite a while now um and we've learned all that we've learned a lot about it and it's not easy because it's a it's an emerging space so you make a lot of wrong decisions when you're when you're working on something that's new so i call this progress and pitfalls because it is moving forward if i was to look at now compared to 12 months ago it's a lot further forward and in a year earlier it was you know less forward as

well it was it's it's really grown a lot in the last two to three years um with a lot of companies coming into this space but let me just talk about what the presentation is is i want to i want to first talk about why we got into the decentralized identity space and as i said we're a privacy company essentially and that was the driver for us to get there and then i want to explain you know what it is and and if if you've been in the identity area like i've been in identity for a long time more than 20 years you realize we're in the phase three of identity management on internet so this is the third phase and then i'm going to talk about some of the key components like wallets and blockchains and by blockchain on being very loose in that terminology i'll talk

a bit more about that i want to talk about what the killer app is for decentralized identity which is this technology called verifiable credentials then to look at the standards because a lot of the work that's happening um is in the standards um bodies at the moment writing standards and all sorts of different areas and and we're a member of i think three or four different founders groups um and trying to help move this forward and then i've got a case study at the end if time permits peter to just talk about an example project from block if everyone knows square and block and you saw all that announcements about web five i was going to talk a little bit about what all that meant so let's talk about why we got into decentralized identities so

when anonymity was created you know eight years ago and and you'll see if you go and have a look on our website you'll see we have this as i said a pseudo platform we also have some mobile apps as well that kind of show some of this technology but we're all about trying to help with this problem and you know we started eight years ago now and the problem was it's pretty bad then and if you think about it now it's much much worse um there's you know every every time you go and create an account on a site somewhere there's you know one of two things that's going to happen are either going to sell your data because they make money out of it doesn't matter who it is they probably will sell it and if they sell it they'll probably have it stolen

right and so in either way all your personal information that you're putting all around the internet is being collated and stolen and passed around and shared and sold and all those things and so it's you know you see you see these a lot of different examples but we all know the case is that it's as bad as it's ever been for privacy um and this this is actually initially on if you go and have a look at pew research they have a um you know some studies around privacy and all that and and i really like this picture and and if i go back to you know before anonymous actually in ibm and we had worked on a product called tivoli privacy manager i'm trying to think what the name was typically

privacy manager and this goes back this is probably 10 to 15 years ago now when i worked on that product in those days personal information you could kind of almost put on one hand you know they said it was your name and your social security number maybe your home address don't even think you had mobile phones so much back then but you know it was a really small set of data they considered pii or personal identifiable information if you think about it now every single thing you do online is creates pii it creates a trial about you it could be you know things like your passport or your drives license or you know your home address and all that but it's just as it's just as much and you know what have you been searching on where have

you been going what applications are you using who are you communicating with you know why did why did facebook buy whatsapp they don't care about your conversations they just want to know what your social graph is so the thing about this slide is it's trying to say that there's hundreds of pieces of data about you that would be considered pai and it's all open for exploitation and and that's what anonymous is trying to do is trying to help that problem so if you think about what we're trying to do as a company is we're trying to move the pendulum back and say look we want to make it more private for people to exist in the world you can't go on you know being put yourself in log cabin in you know in tasmania and disconnect just from the grid it might sound nice

but it's not practical so you have to live in this world of connectivity but how do you be more private and doing it so i just wanted to give that background because you say well why did you come in to decentralize on any was because in my opinion decentralized identity is the most important technology for privacy for the next 10 years so it's a big statement but i think it is the most important technology that's coming around so let's talk about what it is um so i wanted to give give everyone a feel for sort of how big it's been getting like in the last two years i think i've seen it go from something like maybe 10 to 20 companies working this space to probably closer to 100 companies now work in the decentralized

energy space and here's i just wanted to go through a few examples with you just to sort of get a feel for it so this one on the top left probably the leading decentralized at any company in the world was a company called ebonym and recently they were purchased by avast and avast is a company like norton or mcafee and and they do things like antivirus and vpn and all those kind of traditional desktop security applications though all of a sudden they bought this company called evanem and they said we're going to build a decentralized identity practice so i thought well that's pretty big news because it's kind of way outside of what an advance would normally do on the right there there was a sales force board a company called

credential master who only allowed the creation and verification of verifiable credentials which i'm going to talk about but salesforce bought that company to put that functionality so this is decentralized identity into the salesforce platform so tonight that's i thought that's a pretty interesting one and then down the bottom there is an interesting one there's a new network was set up in november and decentralized on any network i'll talk about what the different ones are but it was called checked and the thing that made this interesting is it was a it was a decentralized identity network um based on cosmos and it was the thing that made it different from all the other networks that had existed up to that point is it also had a token like a checked token so

you could actually have a financial model for decentralized identity on that network so that one was interesting and and um and not as an only labs we helped run that network by running a validator node on both their test and their main nets um a couple of a few other ones um the one on the top left is an interesting one there's a w3c has two big standards one called did or decentralized identifier another one called verifiable credentials two of the leading standards in decentralized in any space and recently it was a combination of google apple and mozilla tried to stop the standardization of the did um standard and and they they put a block in they had all these technical reasons and if

you go and read and these slides are available you've got to read those links you know evidence theory is they just don't want decentralized identity to come to fruition because a lot of these companies that exist in trading your personal information are going to have less information to trade um so that's that that's that was another one another one here a company called ping identity bought a company called show card another decentralized identity company so you can start to see these acquisitions happening in this space and finally the one at the bottom there's a pretty big one and it's a really good white paper that square released back in november it's now called block um the company and this was the this was the white paper and the technology that got all this press i think it was about

a month ago now where they talked about web 3 is over it's all about web five now and all that stuff that was really about this paper on this decentralized exchange the interesting thing about it if you go and read that white paper about 50 of the white paper is about decentralized identity so the whole foundation of trust in the environment how users are authenticated how they prove certain attributes about themselves or how exchanges do is all based on decentralized identity so i think that that's a really great white paper if you want to understand how decentralized identity can be used in a platform um so that's a great one there but what is it um

and i might read this one out if it's okay peter because it's i i think this is the best definition of it that's available and and so decentralized identity is an approach to identity and access management and we've heard of identity and access management over the last 20 years a lot of company in that space but it's an approach that seeks to allow individuals to manage their own personally identifiable information so it's about privacy instead of using essential authority an important goal of decentralized identity is the creation of standards allow internet users to control which applications servers can access to specific types of pii so and i'm going to talk a little bit more

about it but there's three main points about this definition that's important one it is an identity and access management technology so i'm going to talk about that next and because i've been as i said in identity space for more than 20 years and i've actually seen us go through phase one to phase two and now we're in phase three so it isn't identity and access management technology it is all about every part of it is about protecting the user's personal information it's all about in all the way the protocols designed the way everything is built is to protect the users so they have absolutely control of their identity and what personal information they give over all right which of course to a company like facebook or google or one of these is just you know abhorrent you know that a technology would even

think about doing that and the last part of it is standards and that's really important if you have a look at this space there's a bunch and i'll talk about the different standards groups but there's a lot of standards works happening um as i said where as anonymous we're part of about three or four groups um in certain areas that we think are most interesting but there's a lot of standards work happening in this space um and and and so it's it's a combination at the moment of people are building product like we are and and a lot of standards work happening so let's just talk about the the models of identity access management right so if if you go back to

the late 90s there was only really one identity and access management model which is the centralized model and a centralized model which is still probably the most popular model out there is you want to go and use an application so you create an account username password might use two factor and and essentially you're creating your account or your identity on their system um you give them some personal information they give you access to the account and quite often they'll collect lots of personal information as i said and and sell it or or have it stolen but that up to the late 90s was pretty much the only way of doing identity and access management

and then and i'm trying to think because i went to the the first working group of the the samuel working group was a secure assertion markup language which which produced this the next generation of what we call federation um so if you if you have a look at and it's probably from the late 90s to early 2000s federated identity federated identity um was really created it's again the second type of identity access model um and if you think about what it is it's it's what we call the social login if you think you know if you go onto a site that says don't bother about creating an account log in with google log in with facebook log in with twitter log in with linkedin these are the federation

protocols and and there's a few that people think about things like saml oauth open id connect a lot again a lot of standards work and it probably took 10 to 15 years from the first meeting of the saml working group in the late 90s to really become ubiquitous on the internet took about 10-15 years and now any site you go to pretty much you can go either create an account or do a social login all right from a privacy point of view it's absolutely terrible it's much worse than the centralized because not only are you creating your account say on facebook which is bad enough and giving you personal data but now you're telling them every site that you're going to every time you know you create a new social login they've got more

information about you you're pretty much giving all of your behavioral information back to that what they call the identity provider so it has this model of identity and service provider and then we get to the topic of this talk which is decentralized identity which is instead of it sort of looks like the centralized model but the difference is you're not really creating an account in the same way you have a wallet and a wallet is something that might live on your mobile device that has your decentralized identity it has all your connections it has your credentials on it and then when you go to a site you do what's called a peer connection everyone's considered a peer i see you've got the three there with this federated stuff so i mean obviously the

first obviously the service provider has a lot less information about you right the other thing is that early i never really took on but certainly with oauth and things like that a lot of places had oh you can federate with your own server yourself anyone you know you could run your own um open id connect login and then you know several places would accept that so that means that you are your own identity provider it can be but it's it's that's that's sort of it never took hard that's so yeah it never took on and it's not common um yeah really what i'm talking about is is the model is

mostly you go to some one of the large identity providers about half a dozen in the world and you federate from them and they have they love it because they get to understand all your behaviors there in a lot of these cases even in federation there's a lot of things you can do to be more privacy privacy you know sensitive as well but there's no there's really no incentive for those companies to want to do any of those things right so they always do the most privacy invasive way of implementing it i'll keep going peter yes i've ejected the person and reported them um how very strange

you're obviously a hitter you've obviously hit a high in um people wanting to attack which is interesting anyway so just so everyone knows um there will be um the waiting room enabled um next week which means please join before 12 30. um otherwise i guess i'll you know i'll probably go in and but now sometimes we miss people who um are in the waiting room late anyway so please go on sorry paul yeah no worries peter so say the question is why would a user or why would a you know a business or government want to get into decentralized identity space well to be honest the the most the main

benefit is for the user it's all designed about the user so why would a user want to do it because they get to control their identity and they get to absolutely decide what personal information about them is exposed and so they have a lot more control over it and you talk about things like selective disclosure and zero knowledge proofs and all these things are involved but at the end of the day what it's about is the user controlling their identity and because if you think about when you go and create an identity on let's say it's on facebook and then you federate to 20 different other sites you really don't own that identity on facebook at any time they can just suspend your account or get rid of the account and guess what happens you now

no longer can access those other 20 sites so you're in a position of relying on that identity provider in this you create your own identity you have a peer connection with a site or with another person and and even if you decide to break that connection they said you're off the site i don't like what you've been saying on there whatever it doesn't matter you still got your identity in that wallet and the keys and all those things so it doesn't it doesn't matter as much to the user so there's a lot of advantages for the user but there are also advantages if you're the business or government the other end because you know you you i think we've probably heard of the term like web auth where you're trying to get you know get away from username passwords and trying to use private public key cryptography

cryptography sorry to do authentication well decentralized identity does that actually like what you do is when you create a connection it's all based on your private public key pair and you do connections and at any time you can go back to that site and prove who you are so it is passwordless for users which is obviously an advantage for going to a business or a government because they don't have to manage that any lot more it also allows you to do um end-to-end encrypted messaging once you have actually set up a connection with a site or another user you sort of have this permanent connection with them you they have their end of the connection you have yours and that and either party could be sending messages to each other anytime could be six months later i'll

send you a message and you know it came from that other party right because it's across this vidcom connection that you've established so there is an advantage there of you know having this long-lived connection with another party um and then businesses and government can do things like issue verifiable credentials and verify them and i'll talk about that what what all that means but let's i wanted to talk about now the main components of it so from a user's point of view if they're working with an application that has been enabled yep sorry i can see that brandon's got his hand raised so i have a question do you have a question there sorry i didn't see that

yeah yeah thanks thanks appreciate that yeah it was it was it was like i guess it was a slash i guess observation uh i guess the question is well let me point out the statement the statement is you were talking about um how you know social medias and some of the big tech giants sort of have our identity from you know from day one right we sign up for an account with them uh and there's maybe there's subsidiaries of some sort one of the things that i found out um that wasn't very apparent you know when i think of like a web one web two web three of web one slash web two space where we have two meeting where we're at now when you sign up for those for instance

like if you go onto an account and says hey do you wanna use your google or your facebook account you're thinking happy days how easy is that i'm already signed into one of those accounts so you know why what i would not want to sign a travel velocity with my facebook account that makes it easy i don't have to go through you know a separate identity process and fill in all this information and then you leave travel identity six months from now because or travel forever you know uh six months from now because you don't like their service and they're spammy for whatever reason and boom facebook still has your data for anything that you do based with that company or their subsidiaries and that's something that you that's not really apparent to a lot of users yeah yeah you're 100 right it's it's about

convenience for the user but you're exchanging convenience for loss of privacy so they get to learn a lot more about you and you don't really know what's being exchanged between your identity provider and service provider in both directions identity provider like facebook will provide a bunch of data to the service provider who you're using and vice versa so you don't really know what's being passed around um but it is its convenience uh at the cost of privacy it really is yeah thank you for that adding to that and that's i guess that was the observation and i guess the question is how is that circumvent and a decentralized blockchain you know internet going forward or is it well in i guess they did that the

federation going forward right if we move to decentralized identity that's that whole idea of social login goes out the door you don't have a social log you don't log into facebook to get into some new site you have individual more like the centralized model individual connections with facebook if you happen to want a facebook account and to let's say strava and you want to have a strawberry cane you're separate but the difference is is each of those is a peer connection from your decentralized identity wallet out to that site so you sort of give it getting rid of that three-way relationship and it's just single relationships but it's all based on your wallet you connect to them and then they can ask for information and you can decide whether or not you want to give them that

information so it's a dif it is a different it's almost going back to the centralized model but it's managed in this what they call decentralized identity wallet which i'm about to talk about okay thanks for that so let's talk about it because i wanted to say that i'm going to talk about the different pieces of a decentralized identity and from a user's point of view the way they see the decentralized identity world is through their wallet so i just put this up in and and one of the things we're doing at anonymous we're building wallet um and but i've decided just to pick one that was it's sort of almost like an open source one that's out on in europe called lissy

and it's and i've just got some screenshots from that app but what um there's probably about six to ten of these decentralized identity wallets out there now um and and if you if you start on the left there this is what a user would see so anytime you want to make a connection and i said if you could make a connection between yourself and another user so peter and i could connect over a vidcom connection and that connection would exist um on that first screen what are the trusted connections or it could be myself to a some sort of website or something and i want to connect with them and there would be another connection for there so everything's based on connections some people call them sort of like it's almost like your address book because each of those are contacts that you have

whether it's users or sites and that's that's what's on that left line the second one is credentials and and i think this the power of decentralized identity is these credentials and these credentials could be electronic driver's license electronic passport could be your gym pass it could be anything where you you'd normally carry sort of a physical credential instead you get an electronic credential and you know it's all cryptographically protected it's it's issued by an issuer it's validated by a validator or verifier and you hold those credentials in your wallet and there's a whole presentation protocol i'm going to talk about about those so that's the second thing that a user would see these are the credentials that i've been issued the next one is

what what i would call the um selective disclosure so when you go to a site make a connection with them they might say look i want your phone number your email address your home your home address whatever and that would come up on your wallet screen and then you will decide yes i'll let you have my email address and phone number but i'm not giving you my home address and then respond and there's a bit of a protocol about that so that's why you have a lot better control over your personal data you can really control what it is that you present to them and then the last one is just some activities so for example you get issued a credential and then you want to be able to have an activity list of i got issued on this date let's say it's my driver's license and i presented it at

these different places um usually online but it could also be in person because you could turn up with your wallet with your phone sorry and um and and do a connection you know in person as well so that's really the heart for a user the heart of decentralized identity is this wallet technology and and as i said there's probably six to ten out there now that you can play with and they're all pretty much the same like it doesn't matter which ones you go to they they sort of have their kind of sort of fundamental um features in them so we've been working on wallets for a while now and and building them and and you learn a lot about what the problems are and one of the problems is in its i guess it's the same problem you have with a

crypto wallet is where do you put your keys now if you have a look at all the decentralized identity wallets out there they're all mobile applications i've not yet found a single sort of decentralized identity browser extension yet for doing it in a browser so they're all mobile apps and and our anatomy is building both an ios and android mobile app as because you need somewhere to store these set of keys and connections and credentials and all that in a really safe place um so mobile is that is an actual place for an identity wallet um if you do a web and you know we may do a web where do the where do the wallets go where do the keys go do you have to put them on a cloud service do you have to upload them into the you

know that and all the problems and you know and i've used you know i use like web-based crypto wallets and we know some of the security issues around that so that's one of the decentralized identity has all the same issues as where do you put all these you know these really important things like private keys and these digital credentials you don't want the people to lift them up and then start impersonating you so that the whole key management is uh is a problem the next is ease of use how do you make your wallet really easily used by normal most of the people that are using those and there's a bunch of project there's probably 20 projects around the world in decentralized identity at the moment um and you know how do they design those wallets to be really simple for a user to use so they actually know what it

means to have a connection and a credential and and look at activities and things like that that's not that easy so you've got to put a lot of work into in terms of the design of these wallets and the last thing is is they're incredibly complex the protocols so they're when i say aip 1.0 and aip 2.0 that stands for ares interrupt protocol an identity wallet is really two pieces it's the storage where you put your credentials and your keys and all that and then you've got your interactions what they call the agent side of it that's why that's the what they call it areas interrupt protocol but we're talking there's probably at least 20 rfcs for different protocols within areas 1.0 and there's equivalent number for 2.0 and so as

an implementer so we're implementing a wallet at the moment building an agent all those things you've got to go which which protocols do i do do i do the 1.0 do i do the 2.0 which one's out of the 20 do i do maybe i'll just do these five so it's actually a very complex thing to build an identity wallet because you know to do things like i need to connect to a site and go through a connection protocol and then they want to be able to issue me a verifiable credential so there's an issuing protocol i want to present what's called a presentation proof you know using my wallet that's a presentation protocol so there's all these protocols that you've got to implement in the wallet there's pretty complex so they look simple but they're not simple and so that's one of the one of the

things we've found as i said we've been building products in this space for a couple of years and and building an identity wallet is really complex but the thing about the identity wallet is probably something you give away for free because it's like a browser probably just as complex now let's talk about the blockchain side of it right so what i get asked to do this presentation originally you know at this blockchain workshop it was because people are seeing decentralized identity in the in the blockchain applications a lot but in this case i'm actually talking about decentralizations decentralized and use of the blockchain although i'm being very loose here with my terminology it's probably more like a ledger than a blockchain but i'll talk about that the when you've got a decentralized

identity application or network or something right the this the source of trust for that environment is what they call a verifiable data registry all right so this is where you do things like store public keys put schemas put what they call credential definitions and all these they sit on some sort of verifiable data registry and that could be a blockchain a bitcoin based one if you look at microsoft they got a network called ion um which is based on bitcoin you have a look at some of the other popular ones they're based on things called hyperledger india's more like a ledger network but there's all sorts of ones and i'll show you some of the ones that are around but the the the you know the core identifier

for a person or a server or an issuer or a credential is this thing called a did a decentralized identifier and it's a spec about those those usually at least for things like issuers they get written to some sort of ledger or blockchain and you'll see that when i show you the verifiable credential protocol how do you know what to write to these ledgers all these blockchains it's described in a document called a did method so if you're the ion you'll see there's a dead colon ion which is a document that's the dead ion as the dip method name and there's a document that says these are all the things if you want to do an application and you want to back it up by the ion network here's all of the data you need to put on to that the ledger or the blockchain that's

what the did method is um and and there's more things so on the on the right there you'll see i've got a few a few listed i've got a hyperledger indie so in anonymity we help run two different hyperledger indie networks decentralized identity networks one called sovereign and another one called indicio you say what does that mean to help run the networks just like a miner we run validator nodes on those networks hyperledger indy typically has 24 validators on the network and implement this consensus protocol and we run um on the at the moment we're running on the sovereign um staging net which is kind of the middle one they've got they've got sort of a

dev a dev environment a test environment a prod environment so we're running a validator node on their test environment and on disio we run it on their main net so they're both hyper legit indie nodes and we also run a validator node on the test net main net of the check network that's the newer one which is a cosmos based network so i'll talk a little bit more about that but there's different technologies and in some ways for an application developer who wants to use decentralized identity it doesn't matter because as long as you follow the rules of the did method about what you need to write to operate on that network there's more than if you actually go to this site and i said i'll make these slides available and you go to those links there's more than a hundred different did methods being published

the most popular is hyperledger indie you know a lot of the projects out there are backed by hyperledger india networks but there's ethereum ones there's bitcoins there's ipfs there's hyperledger fabric all sorts of technologies for implementing a decentralized identity network um as i said if i looked a year ago i think it was about 70 and then i looked you know a few weeks ago and it's like 120 now so people are adding more networks and different varieties all the time and if you know and over time you know a lot of those aren't being used anymore and they'll probably drop off but you know you maybe in time we'll have three or four or five different technologies that are the core technologies for decentralized identity networks i wanted to talk about this one so as i

said did when you go when you see did colon something that's the method name so did indy method so this is a new one this was only published in may this year and what it was the reason why they published a bid method called did indy is there was about a dozen hyperledger india decentralized identity networks out there but guess what they didn't they didn't talk to each other they're all a bit different there was a did solve and it did indicio and it did this all these ones they're all using the same underlying technology called hyperloogendy but they the way you they actually did methods for each of them were different so there was a project that was picked off by the canadian government to say let's create a did indy method standardizing access to any hyperledger

indie based network and that's what this was created um and it talks about what a hyperledger indie network is and it uses this rbft consensus protocol and it's all centrally governed and and what it means centrally governed like if you work on a sovereign network like we do you have to actually get sent out pdf forms that says here's the rules of being a validator and you have to sign and you send those forms back and if you want to write to the network you've got to become an endorser and and follow the endorser agreement so you sign your endorse agreement said that so it's kind of a centralized real-world paper-based governance model which you'll see is different in the next one to write to these networks like if we want to write to an indicio network or a

sovereign network we spend about you have to spend about 5000 a year us dollars to get access to that endorsers have to pay that every year to be able to write whatever they like to the network but it does cost real money and except because they don't have a they don't have their own token dibs look like what's on there yes it did will be something like that did indy it means um they that's um the did method sovereign which is the sovereign network staging as i said as their middle one and then you've got a did and that might be an uh a verifiable credential issuer did and that's their identifier they will have a private key if you go to that address and read the did doc you'll be able to get their

public key their endpoint and other information about that so just say it was an issue about that issuer um and there's a whole bunch of information you write to that network things like for verifiable credentials they implement this thing called non-credits and i'll talk about that but there's you have to write a schema a credentialed issue credential definition an issuer did if you want to do revocation of credentials you've got to write you've got to create these registration definitions and entries so again what that method does is just a document you can read you go and read it's actually pretty interesting reading a dig method and just talks about how the network works and what you need to write to it to to operate in the way they want you to operate it there's another one called dig checked

as i said we help run an uh node on both the testnet and the main network with this check network um they they initially said they wanted to baseline how their network actually operated in terms of the interface is the same as hyperledger indie but over time i think it's sort of moving away from it they use it it's tendermint it's cosmos network these tenement um protocols for consensus and it's it's a true decentralized governance network so you know people electronically put up a proposal for governance like i want to do an upgrade of the network and then people vote on it and if it passes then um then that will go forward so it's a totally different style to the

hyperledger india networks and it does have an economic model which i want to show this is it has a check token so you can get a check token and as a validator on these networks we get paid check tokens and when we want to write stuff to those networks then we can spend those tech tokens so they have this token that allows this financial model on the check network um and and their did method is something like did check which is a did method their main net and then the identifier on there that makes sense so that could be again an issuer sitting on the check check network um and and and this is actually not quite right where i said they they've just they've actually just released code for their verifiable credentials and so

i said yet to be implemented which is a little bit out of date now maybe a couple of weeks out of date because they're now starting to define how you write things like schemas and credential definitions and things onto their networks so it's a newer network it's probably hyperledger indeed could be as old as five years old now whereas the czech network i think was only created in november last year but you can see that it has a lot of sort of more modern thinking around it so what are the hurdles with verifiable data registry and i've kind of hinted a bit about this which is why they created the the did indy method the biggest issue is interoperability if i'm an issuer and i'm sitting on the microsoft ion network and i want to issue a

credential and the the verifier sitting on the you know it's used to sitting on the um i don't know the sovereign network can you interact with that it becomes introvert interoperability question you know like can those two systems interoper into operate with each other and do they know how to work together so i think that's probably you know eventually hopefully there will be a did vdr so they all work the same but at the moment um they haven't got to that and there's a whole lot of different did methods and what i think will happen over the years is they will close up to maybe one or two or three you know of the important did methods to because if you don't if if every network's different then you've got to write code to code to support every network and so that's the

interoperability problem and we're already seeing that with checked and in indy is that you have to write code to be able to write the right information to the indie network and have to write code to write the right information to the check network so it's already like well then what happens when the third one comes along okay so that's just that's the trust that that's the trust layer of the decentralized identity applications is is as i said a blockchain or a or a ledger but what is the killer application why is it important like you're saying like why is it important well i think it's important because of verifiable credentials um so what is a verifiable credential it's it's just a cryptographically protected you know block of data and the idea is anything that you had on a

plastic like a driver's license your passport you know if you think about your wallet you've got medicare cards and you might have a bupa card and you might have a gym card and all those cars it's much easier if they're electronic they're living in a wallet on your device and so this is why verifiable credentials was invented but i would say it's the most sophisticated credentialing system there is and and the most privacy preserving and i'll show you in that some of the some of the things why i say that so this is this is the verifiable credential um i guess you know the full kind of life cycle of it you start over on the left as an issuer and let's take an example

queensland transport have decided that they want to issue an electronic driver's license to you so when you're going to pick up your plastic one they want to give you an electronic one and so you can put it in your wallet on your mobile device right so you've got both electronic and a plastic one so they become an issuer so queensland transport would be the issuer the first thing they have to do is write to the verifiable data registry again that's the ledger or the blockchain down the bottom there they have to write things like what's their did the issuer did so people could go and find out their public key their endpoint they will also write the schema of that driver's license to it and what's called a credit def which is a credential definition which which kind of links the issuer did and that schema together so you know i'm

getting 1.0 version of the driver's license the next six months they might update it at another field so that becomes the 1.2 version so you have to write that stuff to the blockchain and that's that's why this is the the foundation of trust is that blockchain or that ledger on the bottom there okay so then you walk into queensland transport and say look it's time to renew my license and i go okay pay your money here you do that here take your photo here's your plastic one and give us your phone and you'll bring it put your phone up to that um that device over there and then you will connect to them with that connection protocol or vidcom connection they will issue into your wallet this verifiable credential which is this digital drives license and

cryptographically protected and that sits in your wallet and you become what's called the holder of that and then later on let's say you're shopping online and you want to buy some alcohol online it says ah you need to prove you're over 18. so again you do a connection um to that site and you then present that credential to the verifier which could be you know it could be the liquor store that you're you're presenting it to the and this is where some of the privacy enhancements are the first thing is is the verifier can check um the integrity of that um that credential and that they know that it hasn't been altered they know that it hasn't been revoked like they know it's whether it's

been revoked or not without ever talking back to the issuer so queensland transport never needs to know that you know that every week you you buy some alcohol online right the verifier can verify that credential without ever going back to the issuer so that's one point of privacy the second is that protocol between the data wallet and the verifier is what they call a presentation proof and there's three different varieties one is show me your credential show me your drives license like you know as you do when you walk into those stores he's your driver's license the second is what they call partial disclosure just show me your name and show me your birthday that's what they call partial disclosure so you can do that from your credential without showing any of the other characteristics

they don't need to know you've got blue eyes they don't need to know that you're registered to drive a truck or that you wear glasses but i need to know that you can do selective disclosure where they say just tell me these two things and they might say tell me these five things and you say no i'm only going to tell you these two things because that's all you need to know so that's what they call selective disclosure or the most privacy preserving is obviously a zero knowledge proof where you can prove that you're over 18 without ever giving your birth date right and so it does that as well so those are some of the characteristics that allow verified credentials to be much more privacy sensitive than anything else that's come before then and the verify the way the verifier can check that credential information

presented is valid is because they go back to the verifiable data registry the blockchain and look at things like the issue it did the schema the credential definition they can understand what's happening there so it's it really is the killer application for decentralized identity and it's why you see projects all around the world there's there's lots of projects in europe around digital passports digital drives license vaccine certificates you know if you're going onto airlines and all sorts of different projects so i would say it's at the stage now that there's probably 20 large projects around the world all using credentials in some way to kind of make it more efficient to do whatever thing that they're trying to do so because like running one good example is if you you know if you get issued a

driver's license a plastic one and next week you get caught drink driving they cancel your license right you can still go hold that plastic driver's license and turn it up somewhere and show it and they don't know that it's been revoked the advantage of the digital version is you know immediately when you go to present it that has been revoked and that's one of the advantage of the system i won't go through this in any any data because you can go and read these slides one of the things i said about the check network which is unique in decentralized identity is it has this economic model right has a check token and validators get paid check when you write to the network you have to spend check and also you can there's actually a financial model around verifiable

credentials and there's three models one is holder pays issuer so you've actually paid for that digital credential there's another one um where the um the verifier i think is is paying the holder um and that's that's another model and then you've got the verifier paying the issuer and there's different reasons why you would use the different models this this last one here's an interesting one so let's suppose you go to a bank and you do your you know 100 point check right that's an expensive process for the bank it's really annoying for the human and so what should happen is that bank should issue you a verified credential for your wallet that says you know you've been identity verified when you go to the next bank you should just present that credential when you do that you're

saving that second bank hundreds of dollars in terms of identity verification so they should then go and pay the original issue of that verifiable credential so this is why check has this um this economic model the three different varieties of it but it's to make make it economically viable to be an issuer and then also to be a verifier and a holder yeah question yeah yeah so that's that's a very interesting one you can go back a slide just visual yeah so um so one of the things that i've been i guess patiently waiting to see come on to the blockchain is a use case where and i was thinking of this model but the use case was um medical records

for instance you go to your gp the gp says go to a specialist in today's modern society in most first world countries uh you go to that that specialist and it could take days or weeks to get your medical records transferred validated and all that all those things yeah and this would solve for that wouldn't it it would and in fact medical in the us medical is one of the kind of chief let's say um product prototyping type projects that is happening at the moment because of that exact thing is you should be able to be issued a credential that maybe has your some medical information about you and you should be able to present it and they know who issued it they know that hasn't been altered and all those things so

verifiable credentials for medical records has been talked about a lot yeah okay good yeah and then again you know if you're if you're the you know the producer of those medical records and you've been seeing the patient and creating these records and then you issue them with a credential like that's an example of the verifier maybe pays the issue with some money because they're like well you've saved me a whole lot of information you haven't had to carry over a sack of pe paper and all that immediately you can get all your medical information out of the credential and the advantages is that the user holds that too so the user is the intermediary so you present you present your credit medical records to the user and the user presents it to the specialist and they can take it in so it

is in the control of the user the same thing with with finance and um you know mortgages and buying homes and things like that or all of those use cases there's lots of them where this is a really this is why i think this is the killer app for decentralized um identity uh so what's what's the hurdle so in every one of these ones i'm saying the progress we're making progress this is a great like if you go and read your non-credit specification you know the thing that comes across is this stuff's really well designed and it's really well designed in a privacy sense um but there's already interoperability problems why because there's the non-credit spec which is the anonymous credential specification is one type of credential and then you've got the w3c verifiable credential spec which is a

different specification and so as a holder or an issuer do i have to issue both types do i have to be able to allow a company to pick type a or type b or do i end my wallets to have to accept both types and all that so again it's this interoperability problem in there and i guess as we just developed these will go away but at the moment you've got this problem of do i have to support both specifications um i guess we'll see who who wins that war so let's talk about the standards and i said there's a lot of work in the standard so anonymous we're a member of w3c we're a member of diff remember of the linux foundation under w3c as i said there's two

different key standards one called did and one called the w3c credentials that i showed in that previous slide diff is it stands for the decentralized at any foundation there's about a dozen working groups in there that do things like standardized things like wallets and bibcom is standardized in there so there's a whole lot of working groups within diff which are producing both specs and you know code implementations linux foundation is the home to hyperledger you know there's all sorts of blockchain type projects within the linux foundation under that hyperledger brand and that's where hyperledgie indie comes from hyperledger aries when i talk about aries interrupt protocol that's all under hyperledger and there's another one called hyperledger ursa which is all

part of the cryptography that's used in this environment and then under linux foundation there's also another group that we're a member of called the trust over ip foundation which is trying to bring all of these specs together into a kind of a tcp style layered stack where you have you know it's a four layered model and down the bottom is you have your ledges and your block chains the next layer up you have your bitcoin connections and the one above that is your credentials and what about that is the applications and it talks about what happens in each of those layers so there is a lot of work happening in these in this specific in this kind of standards um standards area and we're part of it but you know we can only be part of a little bit of it because there's just a lot of

them there's a lot of working groups out okay if i got time peter to cover this or would you want me to wrap up and open up the questions no i think go through the case study because the case study will help crystallize um the whole talk i think yeah and so this is really interesting so there was i don't know was it two weeks ago four weeks ago probably maybe four weeks ago there was all these tweets that went around and it was it was from jack dorsey and it was and web 3 is dead web 3 is over it's web 5 now and this is what he's talking about he was talking about this project called tb dex and and it's a good and i i didn't come to it from that point of view like i i i

saw this about six months ago but i thought it was a really good case study of why decentralized identity was important because it's the foundation of trust in this exchange protocol so the whole idea here is is tb dext is a protocol for an exchange right so it could be exchanging cryptocurrencies cryptocurrencies to fiat money real world goods or whatever on this exchange and then and really early in the specification it talks about this need for social trust and i'm thinking what's social trust well what it means is depending on the transaction you may have to prove something about yourself as the transactor and typically the thing you have to

prove is your identity so you need to have some identity verification for example if you're transferring between anything and fiat money like cryptocurrency to fear money some government somewhere is going to want to know that they know who you are all right so that's what they call social trust and the interesting thing about it is it says well the way we do social trust in this network is using decentralized identity and you they talk about dids and verifiable credentials to establish and this is their terminology the province provenance of identity in the real world so the idea here is is that if you want you know use this um exchange in some transactions

they don't care you can be anonymous you can say i want to do this exchange and someone will reply and say yeah i can help you do that transfer and i don't care who you are i'll just do it for you other ones are going to say no you're going to have to present some identity verification to us and this is why they took on decentralized identity because they go oh we can the person can submit a verifiable credential to us presentable credential they have this term called pfi participating financial institutions which could be banks or fintech companies or startups or whatever but it's anyone that's willing to partake in this exchange and being part of this exchange so you've got to implement the protocols um and follow the rules and then you can kind of join this network

and be part of this exchange where did decentralized identity come into it well they needed a layer in there that you could identify users you could identify those pfis um and credential issuers on the networks as well so you know dids everyone has a wallet whether you're a user or a pfi or a credential issuer or whatever you'll have a wallet you'll have a did you create a montada um on the blockchain or the of the network in this case it is a blockchain that's bitcoin um based and then it says well when you want to prove your identity or assert things about your identity use verifiable and they also

allow users to issue verifiable credentials which actually give ratings to pfi so if you have a bad experience with one of those pfis then you can say look i give them three out of ten and you can issue yourself a credential and and give it to someone else and it also has an economic model in there for those credential issuers the idea is is you go over to an identity verifier and it says look i need your photo i need your driver's license your passport whatever they need about you and then they issue with your credential into your wallet and then at the time of doing a transaction that requires an identity verification then you can present that credential so the pfi doesn't have to verify you they can use this credential from others some other identity verifier

and and so people in in this exchange have identity wallets that have key pairs and dids in a normal decentralized way they can request credentials they can hold them and they can present them depending on the transaction um they as i said they can create credentials and they can sign and store transactions within their wallet as well and it has this other concept in decentralized identity which i haven't talked about because it's not universally accepted as part of di which is these things called identity hubs and identity hubs is is kind of this cloud-based service where you can put personal information and make that personal information available to other services in a controlled way but i didn't really talk about in this presentation because

it's not universally accepted as being part of the decentralized identity canon you might say but how does it work right so as a user you say i want to do to the network you say i want to do a transaction i want to exchange from this product this this cryptocurrency to this cryptocurrency right and you put it up to the network and the network will get responses and this this one will say well that's going to cost you two cents this one's going to say it's going to cost you 10 cents um and and then you decide which one you want to go through and you might say well the two cent one's cheap but they've got a really bad rating i'd rather pay the 10 cents to make sure this actually happens and so it's kind of this bid protocol to say i want to do this and i'll come back and

say to you um you know how much it's going to cost for example the other thing they can say is i can do it but you need to present this credential to me any of this standard that says these things about you maybe it has to prove your name and your home address or your tax file number or whatever it is that they say so they can say back to the user yeah i'll do it for 10 cents but at the same time you need to present a credential to me with verification and and that's where again the decentralization comes in because it expects you to present a w3c verifiable credential to them that has been signed by say an issuer that that's to say no an identity verifier and that's that's where it comes in so you could say this whole network and you

know you could go and join the network and help do these trades and things but underneath it you could say the identity layer for this network is the decentralized identity and actually i've seen this a lot in web 3 articles they're saying decentralized identity will be the identity layer for web 3 in these environments so we'll see so my conclusions peter and inside i went back to the start right why did we get into it and it's the surveillance economy is not getting any better and you need to improve things for normal users which is why we're in this space why was decentralized identity thought or built why is it being standardized it's a lot about that it is

about the user having control of their identity and their personal information and only giving across what they feel comfortable for the transaction for whatever they're trying to do the anchor of trust and this is why it's actually also the killer app for blockchains or ledgers is you can't do these things with decentralized identity without some source of trust you have to have a bitcoin network or a hyperledger india network or a cosmos network one of these immutable networks behind the scenes that is the anchor of trust the whole thing falls down without it so it's why it is you know one of the killer apps for this sort of technology and then the final point is there has been a huge amount of progress

especially in the last two years in this space across the standards groups in terms of product in all these sort of areas in terms of projects but there's still a lot of pitfalls a lot of interoperability problems a lot of hard things to build you know we've been building for about a year and a half to two years now and we're only getting to the point now of actually having product that we can take to a customer because it takes a lot of work it's actually quite heavy to build technology for this environment and i think that's about it peter i think i might be done there oh did you want to talk about their future talks or do you want to open up the questions i reckon let let's do questions now and then i'll oh no no let's i'll do the future talks um

because that's only a few seconds and then flip questions okay so there are a stack of talks coming up i guess that's the short term short way of looking at it but um in two weeks time um is um who's the um chief scientist at chain alice's is going to come on and talk about how chain analysis works so that should be super interesting we've got um the lachlan is going to talk about his phd thesis which is around socio-legal aspects of blockchain we've got ermius talking about cross-chain security so that one's been delayed a bit but then it's going to happen there in late october and then after that there's a

whole stack of talks including me talking about solidity in line assembler which a few people have asked about so yep and then if you flip to the next slide um if there is a next slide or yep there we go so there's the youtube channel and the meetup group so just for those of you who were have been on the call the whole way through you might have noticed that we had some i don't know cyber attacks i'm idiot so from now on um if everyone can please join the actual meet up um make sure the name that they're using on the meetup represents their real name and make sure there's their id and zoom matches that name so if you join late um you'll be in the

waiting room and if i can't identify who you are then i'm not going to let you in um it's a simple filtering process um the zoom links that we use for the subsequent meetings is going to change as well so um actually use the link that's in the meetup the day before you know on the day of the meeting so that's going to change sometime in the next few days so anyway enough from me and back over to everyone to ask paul some tricky questions yes thank you and i no promises that i'll know the answer but anyway i'll try what questions are there many people don't care about privacy and

they just care about the convenience and this is not the first rodeo around um i remember a long time ago microsoft had their card space which was windows we were running through on your computer for you and it will just talk automatically to your websites and um and we just got a very big user base but that never never took off or what else we have before open id was usually meant to be a federated one where you could run your own and for many years i stuck overflow redirecting to my own open id provider but i think they put up a graph of why they discontinued support for it a few years ago now there are millions of users that had hundreds of thousands of inactive open id connection

like 13 000 active ones so why would users take this up is the question maybe yeah i think that's the only obvious thing is is how do you i mean yeah and i think there's i think there's a couple of answers to that right one is it will be more convenient for them so for example you know um having a driver's license sitting on your mobile device i don't have to carry a wallet with a driver's license and show that is an advantage having like an electronic version and so i think users will see it as an advantage and you'll say well then they have to have an identity wallet at well maybe not because if you have a look at example

the apple wallet right a lot of their announcements lately sound very decentralized identity like in terms of being able to get credentials onto their wallet and things like that so i think there'll be a time where it will actually be very convenient for a user they'll just turn up with their phone they'll get a driver's license put onto their apple wallet maybe or maybe they'll have an app like we're producing an app for it and and it will actually be convenient for the user to do that especially around these credentials um and and so one one is it will be convenient another if you have a look at some of the projects are happening in the airline world and things like that users may just have to do it because they want to have things like electronic visas electronic passports electronic vaccine

certificates all those things is much quicker for the airport and airlines to if you've got it on the phone and you can just present it and move quickly through then you know you pull out your vaccine paper and you pull out this piece and they have to look them through that document so i think there would be a lot of advantages in terms of you know being i think the advantage for the user and also for companies will go look i just we just have to change this because it's a much easier way of working so i i'm sort of confident around decentralized identity mainly because of the credential space because i can see some real conveniences around the and and the fact that people like apple in their their latest you'd look at their latest announcements you think that sounds a lot like decentralized identity and

credentials going into their wallets next question uh so just in terms of the data storage itself sorry can you hear me yeah i can hear sure well i've just lost nothing i was going to say sure could i could yeah just the beginning yeah aidan you've you when you ask can we hear you we heard you and then you dropped out just in terms of the data storage itself it is the the data actually

so clearly the data itself is just not held unencrypted on the registry but is like the other claims in the the the data's like the credentials metadata held on the registry and then encrypted somehow with the so the private key or something held by the the user's decentralized identity wallet or yeah so so there's very little that's actually put on to the verifiable data registry of the blockchain or the ledger there's very little data to put there if you're an issuer and you're like queensland transport you're issuing digital drivers licenses the only thing that you write is your issuer did right if it has your public key and endpoint you write your

schema which would be the schema of the driver's license and it might say there's 20 fields and this one's you know char 20 and this one's whatever this is a photo or an image so you write your schema and they write what's called a cred def credential definition which is the linkage between uh the schema and the uh the issuer did and of course you might have to add new data as you bring new versions to schema or if you want to change your data into something else but there's not a lot of data that actually goes on to the verifiable data registry on the blockchain most of the data is actually living in your wallet so you when you go and create your did you go on your wallet and so i want to create myself a dead and what it does it creates a private

key pair usually elliptic curve cryptography the popular one is you know like it's ec25519 and so you've created this private public key pair in your wallet if you want to then write that user did um to a registry then it would the wallet would write out to the registry and said you know this is essentially here's my did and you write a did doc which has the public key and the end point and then maybe you email it to people to say that's my din that's out on there but there's not a lot of data on on the actual blockchain because the things like your key pair your did and any credentials that are issued go into your wallet they don't go on to the blockchain there's no there's

no credential on the blockchain the only thing that goes on the blockchain related to credentials is if they want to do revocation so if queensland transport says look i want verifiers to know whether this driver's license being revoked then information does go on the blockchain to help them understand whether particular credentials been revoked but you can't see the credential you don't understand any data in the credential but you can identify that this credential being presented to you it actually has been revoked um so there's not there's not really and there's no there's no private data or encrypted data written to the blockchain it's it's just things like public keys it's urls it's dids it's schemas credential definitions none of that is private or confidential or

anything so it just goes in the clear onto the blockchain thank you yeah that uh very well explained it um so you clearly the wallets are a big part of this right yeah um you may even mention apple kind of potentially entering the space and such so what stops us kind of immediately just falling in the same problem we had with open id connect where basically it's just these big organizations just have all the data and you can understand the system it's quite a circular isn't it yeah because you could then if you use the apple wallet then all of a sudden they know all the credentials you're being issued and where you're um where you're presenting them and who's issuing to your right so yeah you're quite right

that you you're giving over to apple all that information i mean one solution of that is to use a third-party wallet like where we've built a wallet ourselves and there's a lissie wallet and there's an evident wallet and all those and so you could use one of those in which case you probably have more privacy that way because they're not going to report you know ebony more and not only labs we're not interested in what you do with your wallet uh but you're quite right like if you use a google wallet or an apple wallet and they're implementing credentials and things which i expect them to do um yeah there's an argument that you're you're helping them understand everything about you yeah so so what would the benefit here though still be that um because you've got the problem with the open eye open id connect and oauth

where they have where the actual implementer uh had to actually connect with the uh identity service or whatever i can't that's right there's there's a disconnection here between the identity service and the service provider in like logically there's always an identity provider whereas you know where you've got your sort of your account and you give them some personal data you've got a service provider that's providing the applications and the data in the federated sense you're creating a kind of a hard link between those two in the the di sense the fact that you've gone to queensland transport and got a credential and then you've you know you've presented it over to the online you know beer store or wine store or whatever there's no there's no connection between those two um i mean the wallet knows that you're issued from a and you

presented it to b and then i guess i guess you said yeah you've used an apple wallet maybe apple knows then but but you the issuer never knows when you're presented a credential to a verifier it just doesn't know so there is a big privacy benefit just by having a hard separation between the identity provider and the service provider so talking about your oh sorry go on oh i can't hear that voice slide your audio's dropped out hmm no can't hear that no we might have to go back to another different question yeah yeah

a lot of mute no sliders no no slows if you can hear us your audio is not working every microphone maybe another question in the meantime yeah maybe yeah thanks i don't want i don't want to hug the rest so someone please um enter in if anyone else has any other questions so clearly the wallet's a big thing here and stuff um in terms of not using so with apple and stuff they're clearly custodial services where apple will will hold that data and stuff are you similarly doing a custodial service or is there no custodial um no so our app is a standalone app that lives on an

ios or an android um it uses this um storage technology there's this kind of open source um wallet technology called ascar that we use um as the fundamental you know storage for you know things like indents and your credentials and all that um but it's standalone on those mobile devices at the moment one of the big questions we've got right so it you know you install the app onto your mobile device and then you use it so it's not it's it's in the control of the user one of the questions we do have though is for normals like for normal people who like lose their phone and drop them in the river and they need a new phone and like how do they recover their wallet right and then you say well do we

provide a backup so we've been talking about well maybe we back up their wallet for them onto our servers or do they get it or do we say you you know you're in charge your own wallet you've got to back it up yourself to the icloud or whatever there's always these problems even just yesterday we were discussing we haven't done it yet but we're discussing like do we need to provide the option for a user to say yeah please back up my wallet to your cloud and yeah and they can encrypt it on their device and write it encrypted to our cloud but still it's like ah now we're now we're holding you know people's wallets and private keys and things like that so i can say i can say i'm trying to design these sorts of systems paul the weak point will be how to recover from i've lost my my

house has burnt down i've lost my mobile phone and my laptop and i don't remember my password too but i'm really neat on a scout's honor yeah and it's in in i mean there are ways around this like you can back up your like your mobile phone to your laptop it can be backed up to things like icloud and all that so there are ways to protect yourself the problem is the normal user that isn't really aware of backing up to their laptop or backing up to their cloud and they don't do it properly and then they drop their phone in the river and and then they said they've lost it it's hard yeah so we're going through all those discussions so our first version of our wallet is just to stand alone on the

mobile and you you know you you're in charge of it yourself yeah thank you all right look thank you very much paul for a excellent talk um and sorry for the interruption um and for those who watch this online you might find some minor edits towards the start of the the talk but um don't worry that so that might delay the actual publication until tomorrow but not to worry so thank you again and uh virtual clap from everyone and a real one yeah so thank you thank you yeah thanks everyone yeah it was good to be able to talk to you all and and

hopefully over the next few years we'll see decentralized and andy appearing a lot more sort of blockchain related projects for sure okay talk to everyone later bye-bye bye thank you