From Progress to Core: Pedro Gomes - WalletConnect

Transcript

I would like to know a little bit about your life before. Like BC, before crypto. What were you doing? You obviously studied physics, and math, did some photography. I want to hear it from you. And then also who you were at that time, and what were you searching for that brought you into the fold? >> Yeah, I mean, if we treat this as a therapy session, both of my parents are teachers. So, the expectation to go to university was like, it was not a question. Like, you have to go to university. So, you have to do things that are reputable, you know? So, STEM topics, like science, technology,

engineering, maths, or I mean, there I didn't have many doctors around, so that never interested me. >> Okay, okay. >> Uh so, obviously, science was very interesting to me. But, one thing that I quickly found at university is that science is hard because it's not something that you can apply. >> Yes. >> have to live in this full abstraction of like, this will help society one day. We just don't know why, and when, and how. >> Okay. >> But, your work will have some sort of impact at some point in time. And that abstraction was like, I think that it doesn't even compare to crypto. Like, we feel like sometimes we're working in the future.

>> Yes. >> But, if you work in science, it's like, yes, this moved the needle. I just don't know what's this actually going to do. Like, I And I think that kind of daunted me a little bit because I was like, undergraduate, and I got exposure to other PhDs and masters that were like in the lab with me. And then they would share a little bit about their work, and then there's this guy I was very close with, and he's like, yeah, I'm doing this like optics research, and I have like this super cool laser setup. It's like a whole table full of lasers and mirrors. And he was I was yeah, but the cleaning lady they the mirror, and now I have to readjust the whole thing for the whole morning." And I was like, [laughter] "Damn." Like, his whole PhD work delayed for a whole day because one mirror got

moved. And when I asked him like what it was, like, it was intellectually interesting, but then I was like, "But how does that actually impact someone's life, you know?" >> Right. >> It's so detached. It's so far-fetched. Like, it's very hard to see >> impact >> impact people's lives. >> Uh-huh. >> And that's kind of got me a little bit disillusioned by science. >> And at the same time, I had this very strong passion around photography and I ended up being like the photography for the newspaper, for the nightclub. I just did photography in every possible way.

>> Okay. >> And I almost felt like it was a little bit of an escapism, and that kind of drove me to drop out of university because then I did more photography than I did science. >> Okay. >> Um and then I was trying to figure out life like everyone does, and I was like, uh what do I do? Bath, London, ended up going to London, but then London, what are you going to do as a photographer? Literally, the only thing there is is e-commerce. >> Yes. >> Literally, the only thing there is. Like, it's super exciting. >> [laughter] >> It was not what I wished for my life, and then I realized, "Wow, a lot of these e-commerce websites because sometimes we think about e-commerce websites as like, you know, it's the Zalando's and the Amazon's, but there's a lot of like

super tiny niche websites that are not that great." And I was like, "I could totally do that." Like, >> Okay. >> they're so bad that like if they can make a business out of this really scrappy website, >> Yes. >> I could totally copy that. And that got me into coding actually because I thought if the bar is so low, then I can do it myself. >> Okay. >> And that's how I got into like Shopify >> Yes. >> um Squarespace, and then I learned about Stripe and PayPal, and that's how I got into the whole Okay.

Yes. Interesting. What year is this? >> 2016. >> Okay. >> That's like 10 years ago. >> Yes. There you go. Happy >> that's when I went into this shift from like e-commerce to fintech and I started getting really into it. >> Okay. >> And then I was like why why stop there? Let's apply for an actual job. So in 2016 I go work for one of the fintechs.

I mean the European Union just passed a law which essentially made like possible to launch a fintech in like in a couple of weeks. >> Okay. >> So we now have like the Revolut and the Monzo, but back in the day there were like 20 of these. >> Yes. >> Like I was in one of those. >> Okay. >> There's not much to talk >> not Revolut. >> There was [laughter] not much to talk about there. I met great people there. Still good friends with a lot of them. In fact, one of them No, two of them actually ended up working Walla Connect which was great. >> Beautiful.

>> So like it was a great experience even if the startup did not succeed. Revolut and Monzo are quite established today. >> Yes. >> But that's what got me into know finance. Like and finance actually wasn't as daunting as people thought. >> Yes. >> Because at the end of the day it's just a database. Like you put the numbers, here's the name of the person, and it has this amount of money. >> Yeah. >> Uh it was actually the regulation part that was the daunting part. The rules to how to manipulate this database that was the daunting part and it didn't really allow for much imagination. It was >> This is the way it is. That's the box.

>> it's like basically there's a rule and you follow the rules and it's like, "Oh, but what if I want to do this thing?" You can't. You can. And it was like we spent so much time and like we're talking about the startup. This is like all 20-year-olds. Like everyone is super young. We're playing ping pong, Mario Kart. That's kind of the vibes. >> Yes. >> Very 2010. >> London 2010. >> There was tons of startups like this in London. We were one of them. Nothing special. But what was um frustrating was like well, so what's the point? Like did we just put the design on top of a bank and that's that's our job?

>> Okay. >> And like we wanted to actually innovate. We wanted to build new features and if the rules dictate the database can only do this >> Yes. >> then we're just the same bank but with a nicer UI. >> Yes. >> And that was so disappointing again. >> Yes. >> So I was like, oh my god, this is like first I went to physics, disappointment, went to a fintech, disappointment. >> So then I I figured out um that I wanted something else and someone like told me about uh Ethereum.

>> Yeah. >> And I was like, whoa, that's really interesting. Because I heard about Bitcoin but it I didn't pay attention. I did not pay attention. I was just like, yeah whatever. >> Yes. >> Um and only when I experienced fintech I was like, I can see why we need this. You know. >> Okay. So that kind of >> I had to live it to understand the value proposition. Like I When someone told me Bitcoin I was at university in Austria completely dismiss it. Like I didn't think this was a problem, didn't think it was necessary. But then I'm working at fintech and I learn about Ethereum. I was like, oh.

>> Actually. >> This is actually needed because banks are not great. >> Yep. >> Um and that's when I got really into it and people ask me, how did you get into it? How do anyone of us get into it? You just go to Twitter and you start voicing your opinions. >> Yes. >> And then I get a DM of someone saying we're building a wallet and you seem to know a lot about this topic and I'm like, well, I do have a strong interest in the topic. >> Yes. >> And I would love to build a wallet with you.

>> Yeah. >> And then I joined the company at the time it was called Balance Wallet. Many of you might not know what it is, but it was one of the first mobile wallets. >> Yep. >> And it was not great. Disappointment. Third disappointment. I think life is just made of like highs and lows, you know, that's how it defines you. >> Like forks in the road maybe also, you >> And at this point the disappointment was why even compete if Meta Musk is just going to take the whole thing? Like there was no competition. Like it was a complete monopoly >> Yeah.

>> by design. Like the the actual architecture by itself was flawed and it didn't allow for competition. But at this point it was a little bit different because the industry was so nascent that the rules were still being written. >> Yes. >> So there was impact to be made. Like it wasn't such like when in physics like this is how things are and that's it and you know, academia is complicated, slow, I can't make an impact or when in fintech it was basically the regulator said no. So >> So >> that it is.

>> Right. >> Just accepted in here and now. Like basically >> Yes. >> you create open source repository and you make the rules and that's what we were trying to do. >> own rules. >> Yeah, we just like we're going to change the rules. We're going to change the rules and the rules were that any wallet can connect to any app. Like and uh We didn't know how to do it. We just said that like that is the the premise that we need to fix, but we just don't know how to do it and I don't know how many people use WhatsApp on desktop. I find it quite convenient because if I'm coding >> Then you can just go to the middle.

>> have the WhatsApp. I don't have to pick up my phone and WhatsApp even back in the day 2008 Wait, 2018. >> Yes. >> Uh you could just scan a QR code and it would like >> Yeah, it would just connect. >> Yes. >> And I was just like, wait, if WhatsApp can do it, why can't I do it? And then I was just like, just copy, just like reverse engineer the thing. What Whatever they just did in front of you, just do that. Just do that. And that was it. WalletConnect was born. And then I tweeted it and everyone just went crazy because it was like, oh my god, this is it. This is what we wanted, but nobody fixed it.

And eventually the Ethereum Foundation reached out and were like, yeah, we need to fix this. Here's a grant. And then I just like, you know, told the Balance wallet team that was like, guys, you guys keep working on the wallets and I'll go fix >> Do this. >> the interoperability aspect. >> Yes. >> So that It was actually one of the conditions of the Ethereum Foundation grant. It was like, we need this to be as neutral as possible such that WalletConnect is independent and not biased towards any wallet, otherwise we have a new MetaMask, you know. >> Fair. Okay, so that was a condition of the grant. So that's why you left Balance.

>> it kind of went into this whole thing where you have to like open a foundation and that was like, that was very bad advice because honestly, like at the end of the day, like you can't have a foundation if you don't have the actual participants of a foundation. You can't just have a foundation just because you >> want a foundation. >> you know? Whole other story. >> Okay. >> Uh like I think to some extent there were problems back in the day where people weren't thinking about business models. Like create a foundation just because this is an open source project. That's a bad idea. Like you need business models to sustain these things. But at the same time, it was also great to think people were constantly thinking about public goods, you know?

>> Oh. >> It's like a swing of like >> those days. >> public goods, business models. There's this swing. Now we're in full business model mode, no public goods. >> No public goods. >> There was a time that was all public goods and no business models. We have to find a balance. And Yeah. >> You do have to find a balance and I think this is um a lot of what we see and even in other conversations is this dramatic shift from one to the other and never kind of a settling of a on an optimum point between the two.

>> work. Like it goes slowly here, but then it gains momentum and then it doesn't stop in the middle. Like gravity just takes you to the other extreme, but over time the pendulum swings less and it does settle or it stays in this like small range of the pendulum, you know? >> Which is a more balanced situation. >> And this is applicable to everything. Like going left and right, politics, you know, seasons. This is nature, but the oscillations change and they get smaller and smaller and we do find a a balance in the middle.

>> What was the the pendulum swing for Walla Connect when you got the grant and then it went boom? >> So the >> What was that like? Were you prepared for it how quickly it went boom or like as in boom success? >> I mean, no one is prepared for any of this. Like um I even people were like, "Yeah, there's a four-year cycle, but until you feel the four-year cycle, you're you don't know." Like even when the Tim Foundation gave the grant, we were like at the peak ICOs. Everything is amazing. Pink glasses everywhere.

>> And then they give me a grant and they give me the grant in ETH. Like >> Yes. >> They say to create a foundation for WalletConnect, but they don't say do treasury management. >> Wow. >> So that grant is no longer a grant. It because it gets wiped out in 3 months. >> Uh that's actually when I start getting closer to the ConsenSys group. >> And I actually become part of the Tachyon accelerator, the first wave. >> Yes. >> As the non-open-source project who got the ConsenSys grant. That one was actually in dollars. So that did not evaporate overnight.

>> Yes. >> that combined with the team foundation grant kind of pushed me into the right direction. And then I felt a little bit more stability by the end of 2018 when I had both grants and I was like, "Okay, now let's really think what we can do here because I just spent like 6 months stressing out about treasury management and setting up foundations. And while I was traveling all over the world talking to developers. I just compiled a big list of complaints about the first version of WalletConnect. And I just like "Okay, I have to write it from scratch."

And I just like sat down and I wrote it from scratch. And >> This was the board. This was the whiteboard. >> No, the whiteboard is the the whiteboard is the pre-grant version. >> Oh, that's the pre-grant version. >> version. So conceptually it's the same thing, but architecturally it was completely different because it had too many assumptions under that. >> Okay. >> And this is the problem with building something under a company as well, right? Because the original one was built for the balance wallet. Therefore, it's >> Okay.

>> It was designed to do what balance wanted from it. But the moment I added other wallets, I started talking to the Zerion wallet guys, the Trust guys, Argent, who are now called ready, the Safe Wallet guys, all of them had like criticisms over this design, and then obviously I had to take all of that and try to find the common denominator of what was valuable for all of them, and it just required a rewrite, otherwise it would have different versions of Vulcan for each one of them, which kind of would defeat the whole point. >> Was that exciting for you?

>> Yeah, yeah, that this is the most exciting part of it, right? Because it's just like greenfield project, you know, just take all and it's also amazing because at the time we had such a small industry, like you don't have to find your customers. >> Yep, they're there. >> They're there. You just go to ECC, they're there. Like you go to Ethereal, they're there, you know? Like and and then they would follow these conferences, so you know, if you didn't get the feedback right in the first time you were like, "But what about this time, you know?" 3 months later we were in another conference and they're like, "Oh yeah, I really like it now, but what about this other thing?" And you just keep iterating and on it.

>> Which is a really good place to be as a product creator, right? Because you're constantly engaging with your user. >> have that with most products. >> No. >> You don't get to face-to-face with your customers on a quarterly basis. >> Right. >> That doesn't exist. >> And them testing it straight away and being like, >> Because everyone is super experimental. >> Yes. >> It's in our nature, like the fact that you even came to this conference, you're a very innovator, experimental person. >> Yes. >> Yeah. So you fit the profile of what I need for the first 100 loyal customers.

>> So then the obviously as it grew and as it found success, what and how did that kind of change your life for you in terms of I mean, we all know the traveling side of things and that is intense and so on. But were there any moments where you're like, "My whole life is this and I have nothing else?"

>> Yeah, but I was already super workaholic by then. Like >> [laughter] >> so even like when I was doing photography, I was doing photography for you all the time and >> Okay. >> when I was working in the fintech, I wouldn't really take weekend breaks. >> Okay. So you were already in my nature. >> Okay. >> What actually changed was I went from an employee to a founder. >> Yes. >> And every time I had I was employed by another founder, I was one of their biggest critics and to some extent they even sometimes really like I hear you, Pedro. But when you're in a big group, can you try to like give me feedback by DM?

>> Okay. >> Because I would be very critical because I always be like, "If I was in their shoes, I could have done better." >> Right. >> But then when you're actually in the founder's shoes >> Yes. >> it's a very humbling experience. >> Okay. >> so easy to criticize as an employee, but once you're in the founder's shoes, everything is much harder than much harder than we can imagine. And that's what was humbling because when I moved from the Balance Wallet to becoming a Volcanic Founder, >> I had so many responsibilities and I was like a solo founder at the same time.

>> And therefore I was like, "Now I get why it was so hard for the other guys to do it, you know?" >> Did you have it happen to you? >> What do you mean? >> Were people on your team like this when >> Yeah, of course. [laughter] Of course. But it was it was actually helpful. Then I I was actually like, "This is actually coming from a good place. I understand why because I was in their shoes." >> Yeah. >> And I was also complaining to the founders of the teams that I was part of. And this is actually genuine feedback because there's another 10 other people who are quiet about it and this guy actually >> cares enough >> cares enough to tell me, you know? So I never took it personally because I actually thought, oh, someone actually had the balls to tell me.

>> Interesting. Okay, I like that. And in terms of the evolution of the team as you're growing it, as more expectation and responsibility you have did that affect your experience of leading the project? >> Yeah. When >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean WalletConnect had very different seasons.

>> Yes. >> Um the first season is this trying to be a foundation that wasn't a really a foundation. It was just an open source project that multiple wallets contributed to it like at the at the moment that it really had this catalyst was when MetaMask and Trust Wallet both became part of it. >> Yes. >> And they were both actively contributing to it. So I was almost like the core developer but also the coordinator to make sure that I know what to accept or not because one might want a certain feature but it affects the other one and I have to like be the ambassador between them.

>> Okay. >> So that that was very different because that was just like pure open source. >> Yes. >> So it didn't feel like I didn't have to manage teams so to speak. What happened was that this was bear market times so >> things don't really break because there's not that much usage. >> Yep. >> Then DeFi summer comes >> Wow. >> and it just explodes. Like it's like, oh WalletConnect is kind of used to like everyone is using it all the time at every second and there's millions of people and things start to break. And then and then I'm like, oh I forgot like I told everyone to run their own WalletConnect node but then nobody did. So, I am the Wallacnick master node.

>> Oh, uh this is 2020 >> 2020 2020 >> 2020, yes. >> 2020, uh and then 2020, uh that was the big boom. Uh and then I I just was like trying to use like bounties and trying to get people to participate because I didn't have an in-house team. So, I was like getting grants to fund people to work part-time. And that's when I realized this is not sustainable. Like this this foundation was premature, it's not working. And then 2021, I do a VC round. >> Yeah.

>> Have an actual team. Like you could call the Wallacnick Labs, Wallacnick Corporate, whatever you want to call it. Like and this was This is the Wallacnick team now. >> Okay. >> Like this is This is a business. This has an engineering team, and we're going to put API keys, and we're going to try to control things from breaking. And all of the sudden, Wallacnick goes from like sometimes it works to always works, you know? >> And that's when I realized public >> goods >> very important, but you need to have the economics in play, you know? So, you have to have that balance. And this is when we go full business model.

>> Yes. >> And that's when things get better because they're more reliable, more performing. >> Yes. >> where the distractions always come because now we're chasing business models. So, this is the the the double-edged sword, right? Because now I have something that always works. >> Yes. >> That the world relies. >> Yes. >> Like it was also 2021 was when the NFT markets came. >> Yeah. >> So, we had crazy integrations like >> Yeah. >> Facebook integrated it, Instagram integrated it, Twitter integrated it.

There was even like a POC with Spotify. Like it was like all of the sudden all the big techs are integrated Wallacnick. I was like amazing. Nothing breaks, everything is working. Like we're doing our job. >> Yes. >> But then it also means that like we're now chasing every single opportunity to create a business. And we created WalletConnect Chat. We created WalletConnect Push Notifications. We created tons of products, and it created a lot of noise. >> Yeah. >> It was all like it was very fulfilling because we were we succeeded at building all of these products.

>> Okay. >> But we were diverging our attention from the core. >> Right? Uh that's when like, you know, and everything implodes, FTX, Luna and Terra, and you have to get back to the core. And then you realize that you to some extent realize that you dismissed the core for too long, you know? >> Neglected. >> Yeah, neglected. Yeah. >> What happens? Do you feel Do you feel responsible in that scenario?

>> Yeah, because I'm >> I'm the CEO. It was my fault. >> You know, like uh I mean it was very hard. Like it was so different because when you're at this open-source foundation, you're so resource-constrained. >> Yes. >> So you can't really do much other than the core. >> Yes. >> You just do the thing that you were intended to do. But then you go into this VC era bull market, and all of a sudden you're not resource-constrained. You have all the money in the world. You build a team from zero to 20 people all of the sudden, and you feel powerful, and you can do whatever you want. And everyone is integrating you, all the big tech companies integrating you. It like it does get in your head, and you do get

the sense of like I can do whatever I want. And and then you realize, but what was the thing that you were doing? Yeah, what was the thing that made it to here? The core of it was the interoperability, the network effects of having all of the wallets in the world use the same universal protocol for transacting. And that transacting part is really important to take into account because then you have to really go into the data of what is the value of transacting.

And this is the part that too many times we get distracted because the word transacting is a financial term and therefore you should focus on the financial use cases. And that is really important. Even when we think about NFT markets, the most important part of the NFT markets was the speculative, transactional marketplaces and that was what brought the most value to it. And if we were I guess not distracted by the craziest bull market we ever experienced in our lives.

>> Yes. >> Um we would have In retrospect, it's very clear. Like it was all financial markets. Whether you were trading cats or you were trading tokens or meme coins, the financial exchange of value is what was the value proposition all along. And that's why to some extent is bittersweet, right? That we're in this market today. But it's so clear-headed. Like I feel >> Sobering? >> It's sobering. It's It's like it's so sharp. Like there's no blurriness.

>> Okay. >> I feel like laser-focused because I'm like, "Oh, it's one of those markets again. I get it now. What is the core?" >> What does that Coming back to what you said about that you feel powerful, like you can do anything. And when you have the resources, do you think that is a little bit like we're saying it's sobering when it's a bear market? Do you think that being in that space kind of makes you make wrong decisions because you're not weighing everything up, or you're doing things for the wrong reasons, or what do

you think? What do you think happens? >> think it's it's it's very simple. It's just when you have a budget, you do things more efficiently. Like, if you're going to go on a trip with your friends, >> Yes. >> and you have >> how much money we have. >> Yeah, this is how much money we have. >> Yeah. >> You're going to prioritize. >> Right. >> You're going to prioritize. You're going to pick the best thing to do during that trip. If you have a house, and you have a certain budget to, let's say, spend on furniture, >> Yes.

>> you're not going to buy, I don't know, a sculpture. Like, >> With all the money. >> With all the money, right? Like, it's it's not unique to startups. Like, under constrained budgets, you do make better decisions. It's just easier, you know? Like, and uh I think what caused this problem was it was very hard to think that you could convince Porsche, Louis Vuitton, Facebook, like, Instagram, all of them to integrate wallet connect, and all of the sudden they'll be like, "Actually, we changed our mind."

And the whole world will just completely forget about the NFTs. You know? >> Yes. >> Yeah, like, I we we dreamt of this day that the world will look at crypto >> and say, >> We're going to do it. >> We want it. >> Yes. >> And then they did it, actually. They actually did it. >> Yes. >> Full production, they went live with products adopted by all of their users. This is not pilots. These are full-fledged products. This is not some innovation team at these companies who are doing a small pilot.

>> sandbox lab. >> No, not sandbox. >> What are we talking about? >> Full distribution. >> Like usage-wise, you know, like what does that do to you as the connector? >> I mean, it it's the data becomes skewed. Right? Because all of the sudden you're like let's say we take WalletConnect from 2018 to 2020. >> Yes. >> There's very clear scenarios where WalletConnect is very >> valuable.

>> Yeah. >> You need to swap. >> Yeah. >> You need to bridge. And you need to convert maybe some NFTs. Like there's like two or three verbs that you can do. >> Okay. >> NFT market comes and 10x's all of those numbers and say, "Actually, you can do these five other things, too." And they're actually doing way more volume than the other things that you were doing before. Which one do you follow now? The data says yes. So, who was wrong? >> Interesting.

>> Who was wrong? Was I wrong? Is not the job of a leader to follow the market and to make the best decision for the company? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But the market was wrong. >> And then what happened? >> Again, another sobering season for everyone. Um everything evaporates overnight and you go back to the core and you realize that the number one thing that if you had to make WalletConnect better, uh you had to make it more globally distributed, more performant, more reliable. Again, go back to the basics.

You know, like if someone is in Australia, are they having a good WalletConnect experience? If someone is an institutional partner, do they have the exact features that they need for their WalletConnect experience compared to the retail user. You know, all of the sudden you go back to the basics, which is like, can you make this as stress-free experience for all users across all regions, across all segments, and all of the sudden we start distributing our nodes. We're everywhere. We start partnering with other partners to run our nodes, and then we actually launch a decentralized network instead of like what I now think was essentially building more products, but not with a

better core. Like the core was the same core >> That >> before. >> Yes. >> It was still the same fickle and unreliable core, but with more products. >> Yes. >> Instead we have one product, but with a stronger core >> Yeah. >> that is truly a decentralized network available everywhere. We reduce latencies. There were people complaining about 3-second connections, and they were like, "Yeah, because we're operating our nodes close to our home." >> Yes. >> What about them? >> Yeah. >> You know, and now everyone has sub-second connections, you know?

>> Uh everyone has 99% connect connectivity like Yeah. Now wallet can actually works for everyone globally. >> Where are you in the journey now? >> So this is 2023. This is post-FTX, post-Terra Luna. So we're really in the mode of like try to fix the core and only do the core. >> Yeah. >> And this means that we essentially have to think about not multiple products, but multiple consumer profiles. So it's the same product, but it is different for someone

in Latin America, Europe, or Australia. It's also different if you are a whale or a small player. It's also different if you're a mobile user or you're using like a safe desktop application. So then we just have to think a little bit more broadly and try to make sure that everyone is having the best possible experience >> Okay. >> and cater to everyone. We also realized that there were some low-hanging fruits that we hadn't done before. Like, for example, everyone complained there was a little bit of a variance. Like, there is 700 different wallets, but some wallets work better than others. Why is that?

>> Yes. >> In permission systems, there are certain rules, again, the regulators. >> Yeah. >> They say, "You have to do this, this, and this, and this." >> Okay. >> But WalletConnect is permissionless. So, anyone can just join the network and do whatever they want. >> Right. >> But we don't want to make it permissioned. So, instead of using a stick, we use a carrot. >> Okay. >> And we create a certified program. We say, "In order to be certified and be ranked on the top wallets, you must do this and this and this." >> You can choose not to, but you're not going to be recommended. >> And these kind of low-hanging fruits were being tackled now because we weren't distracted by the markets.

>> Yeah. >> We were focusing on the core. >> Yeah. >> And there were certain things that we could have done better. And that's certified only launched in 2024. >> Really? >> Yes. We We now take it for granted, but >> Yes, I know. That's why when you say 2024, I'm like, "Wow. Okay." >> Like, even like domain verification was 2023. >> Wow. >> Like, we were connecting our wallets without even knowing if the URL was actually the correct URL. >> Oh my god. >> Like, why? Because we were chasing the markets.

And this is why it's really humbling to think that no matter I look back at when I was in university, I would listen to this YC podcast, and they always say, like, "Do one thing, but do one thing right." And be like, "That makes sense. When I launch a startup, I'm going to do exactly that." And then I see myself not doing that. >> Human nature, though. >> easy to >> get distracted. >> Yeah. >> Do you think that is something that we as humans, particularly in maybe not necessarily particularly in this space, but because there's so much

to get distracted by, we just like veer off what we're supposed to be doing? >> I think I think I would simplify it like the same thing that you would hear a podcast in from Y Combinator like saying do one thing and do one thing right. They also say like follow the data. So, we were also following the data. Like, you know, but crypto markets are extremely volatile. >> Yes. >> And it is very easy to kind of fall in this like, oh, the data said this.

>> Yeah. >> But like this is why like now I like looking at charts like 6 months. >> Okay. >> Because even quarterly, I think it can It's too little. Like a quarter could say this is the truth. But was it the truth last quarter? You know? Like even 3 months is not enough to get the real picture, right? You know? Like looking really wide is really important because the data can distract you very easily. And obviously like there's also the the problem of like, you know, brand awareness, right?

You know? If Facebook calls, are you not going to take that call? If Louis Vuitton calls, are you not going to take that call? >> You're definitely taking the call. >> You're going to take the call. >> Yeah. >> But one thing that I've learned is like you take the call, but you still have your team taking care of the core. What was the core? The core Always protect the core. Like that core is >> is important. Like, why did WalletConnect come into existence? Always protect that. Always. Always. Always. >> How has protecting the core since we're 2026?

Where are you now in your journey with WalletConnect? >> So, now we have gone through the hype cycles. We've gone through the decentralization network, making sure it's available globally. >> Yep. >> And now we've gone through probably one of the weirdest bear markets in existence because >> from everything that we wished for was for crypto to Sometimes people say crypto is not legal, but actually what the correct word is like crypto is no longer ambiguous. Like >> Right.

>> crypto is now clear-cut, like a framework for finance to operate. And therefore, every institution on Earth wants to do crypto. >> Yes. >> Amazing. We won, right? It should feel like that. But it doesn't feel like that because we actually haven't built our own rules. And now they are essentially >> imposed. >> their rules, right? And this is the part that is super tricky, right? Because we have to welcome the adoption, but still be able to make the rules.

And this is what we're trying to achieve with WalletConnect, which is like protect the core. >> Yeah. >> And what is our core? Like our existence has always been about interoperability, >> Yes. >> making sure diversity of wallets and permissionless of all wallets to participate in this network, make sure that it's globally accessible, >> Yeah. >> and make sure the user experience is as simple as possible. >> Yeah. >> And these three things are non-negotiable. >> Non-negotiable. Yeah. >> Learned the hard way. >> Yeah. >> Non-negotiables. And one of the things that we realized is that like one of the biggest trends is in generic payments.

>> Yes. >> Can WalletConnect make a strong impact in generic payments? >> Okay. >> Definitely. >> Yes. >> not part of the core. It is something that we will definitely facilitate. It is something that we will have a strong impact, for sure. >> Okay. >> But what we will continue to do is make sure that we have the widest network of wallets across the whole world that's accessible to everyone and the easiest experience possible. >> And I do not think agentic payments matches those criteria today. >> Do you have pushback on that?

Um from the team? >> I think I think the team is aware of that. I think I think there's a difference between saying like, don't say no, but you know, like if you're going to prioritize agentic payments, no, because um I think there is fundamental problems of how blockchain works that's not compatible with agentic payments. >> So, you know, like a lot of people made a lot of hype recently about Tempo and MPP. Uh and I think it's for a good reason because they didn't build agentic payments on top of Ethereum because they changed the rules of how their EVM machine works >> Yes.

>> to fit agentic payments. And it and Ethereum needs to think about that. It needs to think that if Ethereum is to be the platform for agentic payments, >> Yes. >> it also has to fit the purpose of agentic payments. And right now it doesn't. And that's why Tempo seeks to their own track, let's say, you know. Is Tempo Ethereum? Maybe. I don't know. Ambiguous. >> Okay. >> But Ethereum is definitely not Tempo, that's for sure.

>> Yes. >> And Tempo is for agentic payments and Ethereum is not. And we are obviously always globally accessible, maximum interoperability and user experience. So, we serve um both Ethereum and Tempo, but >> like for an agentic payments, we can't serve agentic payments globally because it will only work with Temple. >> Interesting. >> Right? So, this is the part where it's like the interoperability also has to come from the actual blockchain.

Like we can't force something. We can't force it. >> Okay. >> And this is why I've been participating in some core dev calls recently >> Yes. >> because I kind of come and go in core dev calls. I'll be honest, I'm not always there. But when I see the topic is important, I'm like, "Okay, guys. Like this is becoming a concern. And we've talked about the contract abstraction before. >> Yes. >> But we haven't fixed it. And here they are, these other blockchains fixing it and tackling problems like agentic payments, like guardrails.

They're essentially serving these other verticals >> Yeah. >> better than Ethereum could ever do. And I think that it needs to be fixed at the blockchain level because then they can If they fix it, then we can help. >> Does it ever get frustrating? >> Yes. Because I actually I actually told someone that I felt that if Ethereum actually did account abstraction, that my work would be done and I could retire because I feel like everything that I wanted to do with WalletConnect always had this dependency on if one day Ethereum does account abstraction natively.

>> Okay. >> Because it was like, "I can't fix it at the WalletConnect level." >> So, it has to be >> Unless WalletConnect becomes a blockchain, which is I don't intend to do. >> No, good. >> Then Ethereum has to fix it. >> Yeah. >> If Ethereum fix it, then WalletConnect can also help distribute this new technology to everyone. But we can't be the the patch on the boat. >> No. And you don't want to be. >> No, because it's short-term. >> Yeah. >> Look at 437. Actually, our first edition of WalletCon was where the Ethereum Foundation announced account abstraction, and we were super happy that they were able to do that in Denver. We did WalletCon WalletCon version one, and they announced account

abstraction live. We were super proud to be part of that milestone. But, that was a patch in the boat because we still don't have account abstraction. This is like 2023, and we still don't have account abstraction. Then, we had 7702. This is the moment that I went through like six or seven core dev calls in a row, like in-person meetings, trying to really push. But, that's was still not the full-fledged solution. And now, we have this 8141 that was published in January, and I'm like, "Guys, this might be it. This might be it. We might do it this time."

>> Is that >> I hope so. >> [laughter] >> I want to retire. >> Let's speak about your retirement because we've both been around for a very long time, and I want to get your sense, you know, like I asked you earlier, is it frustrating? Do you feel at some point there's a wear and tear and tiredness that comes in that you're like, >> [sighs] >> "Why haven't we done this yet? I just want to now enjoy." Because, like you said, with WalletConnect, you technically have done the things that you set out to do.

And it's do you want more, or, for instance, having a family, becoming a dad, have your priorities shifted, and do you just want to like chill out and like have normal time? Or, do you want to be both? Do you want to do both? >> I I think the answer is a little bit more nuanced. Like, so I did spend more time with my family recently. So, we appointed a CEO, which removed a lot of operational overhead to me.

>> How did that feel? >> I mean, at the beginning it didn't feel like you know, like I felt like I really want to do this, but it was so hard to give away, you know? Like it's weird, right? It's like it's my baby, but I can't, right? >> But it was the best decision that I could ever make because it allowed me to have a clearer head as well. >> Okay. >> Like because the company just kept growing, you know? It was 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 people, and I'm like >> Woah. >> at some point, like, you know, you have to put someone with more experience there. And it was the best decision ever, and I'm really proud to have Jess like >> Yes.

>> company, and I I get to have a much clearer head to think about the future, you know? Like I get to spend actually more time talking to the foundations, the ecosystem, the chain, the protocol. I take almost like a more external external role rather than an internal role. >> And I think that's very valuable because I can actually understand what's going on better because I'm not occupied with running the company. And that also meant that I was able to have a little bit more time with my kid. >> Yes. >> And I'm really grateful that it's one of the best parts about remote work, right?

>> [laughter] >> I you can just get open the door of my office and here it is. >> Yes. >> And then if I go back to work, close the office. >> And I get to have that balance. If anything, what I would love to do in the future imagine I retire and Ethereum fix account abstraction. >> Yes. >> I think I kind of want to be a little bit closer to the consumer because I've been I've been working on infrastructure for so long. >> Interesting. Like the invisible part. So right? >> Well, like it's nice because it's a B2B2C. So, it has a consumer brand, but it's full B to B. It's B to B. Like we talk to wallets, we talk to developers,

we never actually talk to the consumer. Um I want to talk to the consumer. I want to get a little bit closer to the action. Like I want to feel the actual impact. I I almost kind of want to take a more boutique approach. Like of Like I truly believe that wallets cannot be global. And that's why we need so many of them. >> Okay. >> Because wallets are essentially pictures of the blockchain. They all have the same data. It's the same database. >> Yes. >> Global chain, global storage machine. But they are filters.

Like we're essentially filtering what we see in the blockchain specific for this user. If you're a trader, you're not going to use like a crypto neo bank because you need all those charts and all those features. If you want to gamble, you need that prediction market that's on perps. Uh if you want like to just invest, then you're going to have to have a very good like yield optimization and strategy and stuff. These are three different wallets already. >> 100%. That's such a good point. >> banks and it gets even worse.

You need localization. You need to understand how people manage their money in Philippines versus Argentina versus Europe. You need to have national currencies. The explosion of wallets hasn't happened yet. And I would say that it hasn't happened because we don't have enough local stable coins. Because the moment we have local stable coins, why stop at 700? Why not 10,000 wallets? You know? Because all these wallets are USD based. >> Yes. Yes. Yeah. >> That's why we're we're we're kind of bound to how many users in the world are comfortable to not using their national currency.

And that's our current bottleneck. Because I know for a fact that even a slight variation of forex between USD and their national currency is enough to deter people from using these products. >> Interesting. >> Yes. It's a I I'm surprised that this is not a known fact and I think it is a known fact. I just don't think that we have the liquidity to serve so many different local stablecoins. >> Very interesting. So, there's another startup in there.

>> I don't know. Maybe. >> knows? >> Maybe. Yeah. >> So, what still inspires you? Because you're clearly still there's still an interest in like, okay, how about this? Or what still inspires you about this thing that we're doing? >> So, when I moved from Portugal to UK, I was so surprised to see like how easy everything was. And it's not because of it was a better economy or anything. It was just like infrastructure. >> Yes.

>> Everything just worked. >> Yes. >> Which is not the case in Portugal. Portugal is a a very welcoming, hospital country, but things don't just work, you know? >> Some do. >> Yes, it's been 10 years, right? So, things have improved a lot since I left. Uh but uh now I came back and things are much better, but I remember still having that wow moment when I moved. This is like 2012 and I was like, wow, like things are just so efficient and like even we now like like to say, oh, crypto has um instant settlement.

>> Yes. >> But in UK, they had uh fast fast transfers already long before long before SEPA instant existed. Like even before EU had it, UK already had it. And I was just like, I cannot imagine if I could just bring this technology back to Portugal. And then I obviously with crypto, I had the opportunity to travel the whole world and I was like, why stop at Portugal? Take this marvelous technology everywhere. >> Yes. >> They all could benefit from this. >> Yes. >> Like this beautiful world of fintech that we have experienced thanks to the regulations that opened up in I think it was 2016 or 2014.

>> Yes. >> Uh it actually opened up all of these fintechs, but they were still pretty much US and EU. >> Yep. >> And the rest of world has not seen this boom of fintech yet. Like there's still been like some fintech programs in Thailand and other countries, but like it's not the same. Not the same. Like if we if we had like the Revoluts of the world like expanded to every country, it would destroy all the banks. Like it would just like destroy them. It's it's so easy. Like it's like we're talking about suboptimal user experiences. I have a friend that I met through crypto, Mark.

He's from Trinidad Tobago and he's building like a fintech in Trinidad Tobago. And when I tried his program, I was like, "Oh great, it looks like a wallet." Then I was like, "Dude, you have no idea how the banks operate here. Like this is like cutting-edge technology." And I was like, "Wow." >> Okay. >> Right? So this is the contrast, right? You know, like even just the experience of a normal crypto wallet in Trinidad Tobago will feel like cutting-edge technology right? >> But this I think is also the bias that we get into because we have seen the progress.

>> Yeah. >> Also. I mean, let's remember the first wallets, right? Like >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> where we are now, it's like wow. So I think that's also part of us being in this space together that we're seeing all of these and hopefully we're experimenting with most of the things that we create and so on and we know what works and what doesn't. Um but yeah, that's really interesting. So okay, so definitely another startup in there. After a little bit of time off, maybe at some point >> Yeah, maybe. I mean >> When you think Let's see Let's see how long it takes for account abstraction to go.

>> So, this is basically you're not retiring until about account abstraction happens. Okay. >> let's put at least a KPI in there like like shipping account abstraction could have been said, "Oh, we did 7702. We shipped account abstraction." How many wallets use 7702? >> Right. >> We need the KPIs. >> Yeah, we need the KPIs. >> I used to hate this kind of corporate terms. >> but you love them now. >> No, I I wouldn't say I love them, but they're so useful. >> They're useful. >> They're very useful. Like you can't beat the data.

Like you follow the data. >> You follow the data, but like you say, the data may be 6 months data. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you need to have >> caveat that don't just look >> like I think when I say like it's very careful to look at the data, but you have to like zoom out. You have to zoom out. Like for example, let's say that right now like Teerum Foundation said that best case scenario we have 8141 Q4. >> Yes. >> We won't know the result until Q4 2027. You have to give it 12 months to really >> what it's saying. Yes.

>> If we have, let's say, 25% of wallet transactions using that new standard, I would say that's positive, but it's not a success. Not a success because it's not 50%. I would say 50% of transactions using 8141 is a success. And that's maybe like a 2020 year. >> 2027. >> I mean. >> It depending on if Okay. >> If I think it's more like 2028, but you know. I maybe I'm just burned out. >> [laughter] >> Do you want to talk about that?

>> Sure. >> Are you okay? >> Yeah, yeah. [laughter] Since we're doing therapy. >> I mean, look, it's a safe space. Is if there's anything you want to share, is there anything you haven't talked about or shared publicly before but have thought about it and have like sat on it. >> I think that Ethereum is very open. Like for example, core dev calls, when I talk on core dev calls, you can go to YouTube and watch when I talk. Like you can verify. >> Like one thing that someone tweeted the other day and I was like, this actually makes a lot of sense, is that we put engineering managers of Ethereum clients make

decisions at core dev calls >> Yes. >> uh because we were a very technocratic industry, but realistically, was that a good idea? Like do the engineers think about the implications of what their decisions are making from a user perspective or from a business perspective? I know there's always been a lot of criticisms that like Silicon Valley has too many product managers, PM PM this, PM that. But if we put a bunch of PMs in the core dev calls, we call it core PM call, like maybe the decisions would have been very different because I was in that call and I was thinking, we had Derek from Zero Dev, we had Parf from

Ether Spot, we had Hamit from Bycon, we had myself, but so many people just screaming saying, we need account abstraction. And the core devs were like, we'll think about it. And I was like, what is there to think about? Like 4337 was announced in 2023. >> Yes. >> We had 3 years of experimentation. >> Let's go. >> Tempo. >> Yes. >> We had Solana. You know Solana has most of the features that we're asking for?

>> Interesting. >> Like you want to do gas sponsorship? Solana has it natively. You want to do passkeys? Solana has it natively. Now Ethereum also has, but 2 years later, but it has. Um you want to do batching, Solana has it natively. This is not a promotion for Solana. This is a wake-up call for Ethereum. You know, don't tell me we'll think about it when other blockchains already fixed this and we announced account abstraction 3 years ago. That's why I was like when I read that tweet of like sh- should we have PMs in the core dev calls and not engineers?

And I was like I think he has a point. >> Interesting. So that's that's the thing that you haven't said before? >> Yeah. I mean I try to not be too critical of the Ethereum Foundation because they have the weight of the world in their shoulders. >> It's a lot. >> It's a lot. In the same way I was critical to founders that were I was working for and then once I was a founder I found out it's harder than it looks. >> Yeah. >> I have no idea what it's like to be at the Ethereum Foundation. I have no idea what it's like to be an executive director there.

But I think there's some low-hanging fruits in there that need to be tackled. >> To further the core and strengthen the core. >> I I think I think sometimes we we we constrain the definition of the core. Um and um yeah, like having users really use your blockchain. >> Yes. >> Like when I say use is that's like the the amount of patches in the boat that have been made >> Mhm.

>> should make you question whether you should just not fix the boat itself. Right? Like it there there should be a threshold. Like if you see too many patches in the boat, maybe you just should fix the whole >> boat at this point. Yes. >> And that's that's how I feel with account abstraction. That's my number one frustration. >> Okay. >> I'm not putting exactly the blame on the Ethereum Foundation or even the core dev calls. I think when you live in this industry where you have a thousand stakeholders at hand in one topic, >> it gets out of hand.

And I really, really hope that this is the year that comes abstraction gets fixed. >> Here's uh may those words come true. Um in closing, what is one rule that you now apply to everything that you do and how you live your life that you didn't have when you started? >> I mean, it's quite repetitive, but um when when you think about your goals,

>> Mhm. >> you have to be able to measure them. >> Mhm. >> But, >> [laughter] >> you should seek feedback very actively >> Okay. >> of people to challenge those KPIs. Because I think sometimes uh if you're the one setting your own goal posts, >> Yes. >> and also the one measuring the goal posts, >> Yes. >> it gets a little bit of, >> [snorts] >> you know, a feedback loop. >> Yeah. >> And um what I love about the most about the scale of Wall Street Connect today >> Yes.

>> is having a very diverse group at our exact team with very strong opinions, you know, people who know how to say no. >> Okay. >> And um that's what builds a very strong company. >> Okay. So, >> And if you're a startup and you don't have an exact team, >> Yes. >> you should seek that feedback externally. >> Okay. >> You should seek that feedback externally. Don't try to make it a trade secret. You're a startup. There's no trade secrets. You're know, two guys or one girl and one guy building a startup.

Like, come on. Like, ask your friends, ask your peers for feedback. You're just starting. Really challenge yourself to find contrarians that will tell you what's wrong. >> And then listen. >> listen because that will make for a better You won't have to go through the cycles. >> Okay. Okay. So, save yourself time and >> Save yourself time. Yeah. Yeah. >> All right. Thank you, Pedro. Thank you so much for joining us.

>> This was awesome. >> Excellent. >> I feel lighter already. >> Excellent. This is the goal. This is the goal. This is the KPI. >> This is the KPI. >> Awesome. Thank you so much. >> Thank you.