Privacy in Cosmos: Live in Prague!

Transcript

who may be wearing zkv hoodies come and speak to us to find out what we do but what brings us all together from different areas of the ecosystem is to support privacy in ZK Tech and we do that in quite a few different ways so we of course run events like this and we've done series like this over the last few years um we run validators but we also try and advocate for privacy in the UK in all sorts of different ways that includes getting conversations going in smaller groups with different members of the ecosystem governance uh building sometimes Tech tools which we release open source and also launching and funding initiatives through grants processes and other other ways to help support builders and so just to describe a few more of

these initiatives we research and publish educational material I really recommend you check out our blog we just released an article kind of comparing different private dexes so we're doing a lot of work in that direction we also do early stage funding through investment or grants we have um in the past we've actually been kind of the co not creators but like co-leaders of the git coin ZK Tech side round and we're also supporters of the Z prize initiative um yeah and then we do Network focused events like this one so recently we did awesome we did an event with osmosis focused on Mev as well as evmos and bridges so often we're trying to find like a very important topic that has

some ZK in the mix and then working with those networks to yeah build more to sort of get a conversation going quick little announcement we're actually doing an event in Paris called ZK Paris we're co-producing that with geometry it's just a note if you're there and also I really recommend you check out the cosmos newsletter if you don't already know it it's weekly and we it Hector's actually picking three important topics in the cosmos ecosystem for me it's an amazing briefing yeah I hope you check it out and yeah so why this event so we've believed for quite a long time that privacy is the next Frontier for Cosmos and you know why do it now well the network is definitely at a pivotal

moment and I think having this conversation is important the number of projects incorporating privacy Still Remains small so we've actually been running these kinds of events for I think two years and one of our goals was very much to you know encourage more development we've seen a little bit more development or incorporation of ZK but we'd love to see more just a note this is this we did we're thinking about it's our sixth time that we do a privacy and Cosmos event second time IRL last year we had actually received Hub funding for four events this time around we just felt like there was a lot that we got out of that we wanted to continue this series and so this is by the zkb team but yeah so the goal is to bring together cosm

the cosmos Community the Privacy community and the ZK Community for a larger conversation and hopefully get more projects using ZK in the future so we've got some fantastic featured projects talking today I think this time around compared to previous events there are more privacy focused teams so that's great um who are kind of coming into and building the space so a little housekeeping this is the impact hub it it like just to give you sort of a sense if you're just arriving this is the main hall we have the zkv Rockaway Lounge over there we have a relaxing room over there and there's a Terrace if you go through the door

um yeah the the whole schedule for this event is viewable on our website if you just do slash privacy and Cosmos and also if you see there's a banner that will lead you to the Eventbrite link and the schedule is also there and I think we're just running it here so you can always check it out as well yeah this is the Wi-Fi I believe there are signs yeah everywhere so it should be very easy to get on so the event format is going to be relatively informal we've got four talks two panels and then a lunch and then after lunch we're gonna have open discussions um we'll talk a bit more about what that looks like um but we're trying something a bit experimental this time around so yeah for the agenda as mentioned we have our intro right now two talks and

then a panel on ICS mesh IBC and privacy we're gonna have a short break after that and then in the afternoon again we have two talks and a panel with external privacy projects coming into Cosmos then we break for lunch so after lunch we're going to have an open discussion and we wanted this to be I think it's particularly because of where Cosmos is right now about the future of Cosmos as well as privacy in the UK and we're gonna depending on how many people stick around for that split up into groups work on some questions about what is the future of Cosmos how can we solve some of the challenges it's currently facing and then come together into a sort of open Round Table format to discuss through those topics I think it's going

to be really interesting to try and I hope you'll really enjoy that yeah and maybe actually maybe just before lunch we can share a little bit of the topic so we want to cover because I mean there's so much happening even this week and we felt like this could be a really good forum for us to have a conversation about that all right so yeah thank you so much for coming to our event uh very excited to spend the day with you you can follow us on these various websites see us on Twitter you can actually support us directly if you stake to any of these networks I think we're missing one maybe also if you do tweet at us I just want to yeah I hope I'm saying this right

Hector if you tweeted us so we have this like there's like a zkv swag box which is like the the coolest swag altogether and so if you send a tweet find Hector maybe let them know that you've done that and we're giving some of those away cool yeah thank you all for coming out and very excited to spend the day with you here's our first oh okay yeah let's let's clap thank you oh yeah so first up we have sucky where are you are you giving a talk on the unbearable weight of sovereign multi-chain ux exciting

cool all right um I guess right sort of like the theme of talks from me lately has been ux um and ux has been on my mind because growth is on my mind both growing similier um and the challenges of like onboarding new users primarily from eat the land um into uh an application but I've been basically doing a lot by because of similia and uh other activities I've been very much more on like the application side of the of of Cosmos and the blockchain ecosystem lately and the uh and like what I have become much more aware of is like the

incredible challenges of building like a user experience that can like onboard users in any meaningful scale um and how hard these problems are so just a little talk about like this is going to be a quick talk just about like challenges that I see and like not necessarily proposing Solutions uh but encouraging people to think about them more um I also would just say that like essentially Cosmos growth for Cosmos at this point is existential um you know I would say mostly are sort of a monthly active user numbers have been flat for the last year and if we don't change that in the next year um we are not going to be around um so

basically the sort of General theme about things that will improve uh uh in like the ux and Cosmos is when we've had account abstraction throughout Z in production for you know almost two years um but like relatively limited uptake um and so like why is that what can we do about that um IBC middleware is becoming more and more of a of a thing I think like one of the more interesting ux things that recently shipped um is stride doing um uh stride doing one click uh uh liquid staking so like basically you start the liquid staking process but

then all of the subsequent transactions are delegated to the IBC relayer to complete um and then there's this like the magic word of the moment intense which I'm mostly not going to make this an intense talk um so what are our challenges um gas has been like sort of a never-ending uh challenge for the cosmos user experience um most you know Kepler recently shipped like making it easier to use alternative gas uh gas ux could be improved a lot of is just social coordination like agreeing on coins that can be used as gas and coordinating all the validators and the uh and where you where where needs to be governance to support a single gas token

um it's still like a complete nightmare to you to like manage hot and cold wallets um multi-cigs are usually are Pace like the native Cosmos multi-cigs are still very like non-native to the ecosystem um signing multi-step flows where you have to do it and like deal with like various latencies are a complete nightmare so like I want to bridge from eth to uh I wonder bridge to from eth uh via Axor to osmosis and then do something is like you wait 20 minutes and you do step one you wait 20 or 30 minutes and then you do step two and like it just shocks me that anyone would do this

um and then whenever anything Fails Like failure and Recovery is like an even longer uh and more complicated process like I find it hard and you know I the like I have the whole architecture of the system in my head um and then privacy is going to make all of this like much much worse um so it introduced off-chain State um viewing Keys um basically every every Cosmos chain has been running the same uh staking and distribution implementation and privacy basically inherently brings us multiple uh implementations of staking and generally like overcoming like the down only tokenomics of Cosmos involves

building multiple implementations of this so from like a wallet and a dashboard point of view instead of having like 45 50 index implementations of exactly the same software now we're going to start seeing more and more Divergence in these systems um and then we don't really know what the Practical trade-offs are like metamask snaps seem to be like one of the most important things happening in Cosmos but like what are the practical trade-offs between like using a snap and a dedicated wallet like Kepler or leap um so things that confuse me are um like I don't know why Cosmos wallets don't come with like a built-in bot interface that like or in like first

party Bots that come from the wallet providers that just will automate things like I don't know why like yield most is a separate thing from Kepler um it probably shouldn't be um I think wallets should charge like monthly fees um I think like the wallet monetization model is so far been basically like pay us as a first party project to like you to be like to get like user reach um I think we need to like definitely be moving more towards where our wallets have like direct relationships with their users um uh I don't think I left off the last boat we'll forget that um the other thing is like session keys so

like one of the other things that we could be doing a lot better in Cosmos is rather than like you use stargaze I'm going to like make a bunch of transactions why do I have to like sign with my Hardware wallet for every single thing that I did I just want to bid on ffts um like we should be we should be doing more about delegating restricted capabilities to uh this is another basic use case of our uh of our Aussie stuff but like especially in the sense of like privacy enabled applications as well right if we're going to be using like different cryptography different like that may or may not have Ledger support like how are we going to do that without

being able to like delegate restricted functionality to like sort of more short-lived keys um and then finally we have like the sort of meta thesis which is that like topology's in a single chain world are really hard like how do I get from like I want to use an app that takes you know that takes weth and I have like a bunch of different liquid staking tokens a bunch of like other tokens how do I get there is already really hard because like swapping pools liquidities slippage depth now when you add on top of that like multi-chain ux um this becomes a nightmare um so you know basically the reason I

have been running around intent pilling people is probably multi-chain ux is going to run into fundamental barriers until we get to the point where we have an intense settlement interface like what anoma is working on but that generally seems to be to be like where we eventually go but I think what we see in like the sort of IBC middleware world is like an early form of intense sort of expressed by stuff like squid and like the stride example that I gave before we're like you can delegate work to IBC rewears um you know we do have Searcher markets like skip does exist it does have a search or Market we do have this IBC relayer market like these things do

exist and like need to be extended in leveraged to improve ux so thank you very much [Applause] thank you Zaki are there any questions yes okay so it sounds like a lot of what you're talking about would be addressed with if there was more competition on the wallet side uh and I I mean maybe that's not all of the problems but don't you think I mean it basically do you think there's a specific enough effort to give more grants to create more wallets that maybe then compete on these different aspects on the ux side

I guess the like to me the question so like I guess I didn't like I okay so my question with this is is it's like so wallets have been like like the wallets have pursued models where they're like hey like we're going to be like a least common denominator over a lot of different things like that's basically been the the wallet model but like sovereignty means the like a continuous drift away from least common denominator like the you know like the other example that like is there is like so like the primary difference between like evmos and Polaris which is the bear

chain evm Fork is like evmos is like let's have a bunch of Cosmos SDK message type and then have an evm message type Polaris is like there's no Cosmos SDK message types you have ever really interact with you just interact with the evm the cosmos SDK is a layer that sits underneath an evm for like doing cosmosy things um but that means that like the least common denominator among like Kepler wallets like just like isn't going to work like you're not going to be able to see your staking and delegation and even then you wouldn't be like it's not it's not the standard Cosmo staking module anymore right so like I think we have like a real challenge that like

um is going to have to be explored which is like what are what is the right way of even constructing wallets into this world because like the answer might just be that there's like a bear chain staking snap and that's the answer right um and like the least combinator denominator like wallet support all the same thing thing just like doesn't work and like the same thing is like how like how do you get privacy support into Kepler is like sort of a completely unanswered question hey um we've been exploring some cross chain

ux stuff that uh that is you know sailing into this topic um and in particular we're we're trying to do like multi-chain flows where um we want to make sure that the the funds are recoverable um in the middle yep and one of the things that we're you know running into is basically um alternative key derivation paths on different chains yep and this the complexity of this just explodes when you get into like the session key World yep and I I don't I don't know how to to kind of square these two

um it it's really important for multi-chain automation to to be able to have uh you know user custody across all these different chains but um you know we're kind of like moving further away from from that with um there are like bip 30 so like HD path thing is this like hierarchy of hashable values um and there's probably like so like the origin story of this whole sub k thing like I will briefly digress and hopefully be like is like once upon a time uh the treasure people and The Ledger people came up with a standard um uh which uh they were like okay our

Access Control mechanism is like different blockchains will have access to different subtrees um in this like Merkel giant Merkle tree of of like private key values so you'll have your mnemonic at the top and then you'll have different sub trees one thing that like is sort of an interesting question that was like what how I think we should probably be doing session Keys is basically have like a subtree four session keys right and so you could have some sort of local thing that like gets the root of the subtree value on your local device and then passes it into a less secure environment so you never use those keep that like sub tree for like high value

key storage but like you could use that subtree but like basically it would be like turning the like Ledger um uh uh The Ledger uh like Treasurer Access Control mechanism a little bit on its head um and using it for like non-hardware key storage and then having like applications that can like you know it's always it you know like the general policy should be like uh we could even have an like a ledger app that like derives that session sub key and like makes it available to the app um like so there's there's stuff that we could do there it's like a bunch of coordination overhead um the alternative is just like separate

mnemonics for like separate session keys and like long-term storage keys good any other questions okay thank you very much Zaki and now I would like to introduce to the stage Finch from penumbra [Applause] hello so um today I want to talk about this thing that we've been calling full stack private protocol design um because um all right so I'm from penumbra Labs uh just uh this is our logo

um it's the best that I can do drawing it by hand because I decided to draw my slides by hand because I thought it would be fun to do so I'm from penumbra um those of you who don't know what penumbra is I'm just going to give a really quick overview so that I can ground the talk and chat about some of the cool stuff that we're doing this talk is going to be a bit of a grab bag um and I think that's going to be really fun but the grab bag has a theme and I will introduce the theme momentarily but first um so what is penumbra penumbra is a tendermint L1 app chain written in Rust so we have shielded transfer staking governance as akibus was just saying in his talk all of these operate on a Model

that is different from the cosmos SDK which means that interoperability is kind of an interesting question I was just having some cool conversations about private interchain accounts and how we can make that work with the penumbra model which which is not an account model under the hood it's a utxo model like zcash and accounts from the user perspective are sort of a polite fiction presented by the the client interface but that's sort of an aside um also we have IBC to and from anywhere and so you have this interchange shielded pool that penumbra gives you in the cosmos ecosystem and Beyond as well as in the center of that a shielded Dex that uses a lot of the

really cool privacy features that we've built in penumbra to get some really unique features of a DEX stuff you couldn't build without privacy in that environment and I actually give a talk about that at Gateway on Sunday morning very first talk slot for the day so some of you may not have seen it because you were asleep and that's fine because it's recorded and it's on YouTube already so you can go look it up and watch it and I encourage you to do so it got some good reviews so this talk is about three things when you're building a private protocol and you want it to be used by people like actually used you want it to be faster easier and cheaper than everything that has come before because if your private

protocol is slower harder and more expensive then no one is going to ever use it regardless of how much they care about privacy except for wearers like me right so and probably quite a few of you but we are weird right we're not the norm so I want to talk about this this is a post that I made uh recently I was talking to so I was talking to the the penumbra group chat that we have inside the company and I had this like little uh brain worm I was thinking about some of the different architectures that we have in penumbra and I realized that we've got these different structures that represent different parts of our flow so

we've got uh something called a transaction plan n which you can use your human intent and the what we call the view service to construct and then this gets turned into a transaction So the plan is like the plain text version of a transaction the transaction is the encrypted version um then once you submit the transaction to the chain what you actually look at Once you pull it back down from the chain is a transaction View and then sort of hypothetically you could translate that back into a sort of abstract representation of the human intent behind that thing and I realized this Four Element cycle looks exactly like this thing called an ooda Loop um and those of you who are not familiar

with an ooda Loop it was this idea that got um invented by some some guys in the Department of Defense or something back in like the 1960s or something don't quote me on that um but there are a lot of memes about this um and uh there's this very uh funny Twitter account called defense charts um that makes uh that sort of posts uh Declassified slides from the Department of Defense briefings that look like absolutely insane PowerPoints on drugs um and so like I I sent this to the group chat and everyone was like this is a great post we should post this on our uh on our alt account which is called penumbra devs and uh so we did that and then I started thinking about

this and realized this is actually not just the post this is actually kind of an interesting way of thinking about the way that private systems work this is an example of what we call post-driven development and it turns out post-driven development is actually a really great way to figure things out for real because when you're posting you don't uh restrain yourself to just thinking in a sort of like orderly and straightforward manner you let your mind just cast out for associations and oftentimes what that means is that you realize that there are certain symmetries that manifest as jokes but are real and when symmetries are missing you realize that there's something

missing in the design of your system so I am like a full-heartedly and unironically in favor of post-driven development I encourage you to try it out and I will see you on Twitter when you do that so anyhow um this ooda Loop um I'm going to talk about sort of all the different components of this flow and how when you construct like when you're constructing a private protocol like penumbra you have to think about how to make it faster easier and cheaper not just at one part of the flow where say perhaps you're processing a transaction on the Node but also where you're viewing a transaction on the client or you're planning a transaction on the client like there's this whole

Loop that goes from the client to the node and then back again maybe through a relayer does all sorts of stuff right okay cool so faster and this is where we get into the grab bag stuff most clients most of the time they're not sending transactions actually and I give a talk about this at ZK Summit eight um which has some pretty cool visualizations that I did not draw by hand but wrote a computer program to generate um so you can watch that with more details about this but they're actually doing private State sync that's to say that when you have a ZK system you can't just query the chain of course to find out what your balance is you need to download the entire history of every

transaction that's ever happened and you need to decrypt it locally you need to synchronize a shielded commitment Tree in order to get the root hash so that you can prove inclusion of all of your state fragments right so this is slow and hard because you have to hash everything from the beginning of time into now so we didn't want to do that instead we built this optimized tiered accelerated Merkle tree that we call the tiered commitment tree that's what my talk is about at zk8 but we also realized that this isn't enough because it's because fundamentally even though this solves the computational problem of not having to compute every hash since the beginning of time you still have a bandwidth limitation problem because you

still have to download every transaction since the beginning of time so we built into penumbra some cool cryptography to do fuzzy message detection for private delegated scanning so what this means is in your like key hierarchy you have a particular sub key that's called the detection key and the detection key is something that you can hand off to a third party not a trusted third party but just any third party and say hey can you please scan probabilistically for all of my transactions and that party will hand you back a set that it's like an encrypted Bloom filter

so that party hands you back a set of say 10 times more transactions that are actually yours and then you locally filter those down and the third party can't tell the difference between the transactions that are yours and the like chaff that's generated so it's still more or less protects the metadata privacy of the transactions that you're doing because the third party doesn't know which is you in the like restricted stream that it's filtering out of the fire hose but you get to download only only you 10 times more data or whatever like a factor of 10 I'm just sort of like waving my hands about as opposed to the entire fire hose and that's really cool and that means that you can take even better advantage of the optimized

accelerated Merkle tree that we have so that you can just like Zip right ahead and synchronize your entire state so that you can use the wallet on your cell phone or something like that all right so but sometimes also you don't just want to know how much money you want to have you want to actually send that money somewhere else weird right um so uh we we also want to make this fast so we realized that when you are authorizing when you're when you're constructing a transaction you're sort of doing two things at the same time you are proving the transaction you're forming a zero knowledge proof um and you're producing the witness data that's necessary to create that proof but you're also authorizing the

transaction by signing it now uh signing the transaction is a pretty quick thing to do computationally the proving actually takes quite a lot of time by which I mean like less than a second for a lot of our penumbra transactions but still um yeah so um but you're also authorizing the transaction and so what we did is we said well do these things concurrently we architected things so that you can have a concurrent authorization flow which means that you um which means that you have a um you have the user say use their Ledger device to authorize the transaction and the the uh simultaneously in the background you're doing all of this work on the computer

to prove it so that gives you more responsive ux okay so easier right um this goes back to the ooda loop that I had up there before um so uh intense we're all talking about intents right this is not necessarily the intents that everyone else is talking about but we do have this notion now of a transaction intent and we want to build that so that we have a use like an easy representation of uh what does it mean to want to do something in a private context because these transaction plans that I've been talking about they're the the plaintext of a transaction but they contain all sorts of stuff like references to which notes you're spending and randomizers and ZK not ZK

proofs but like um like you you've got all this like extra chaff that doesn't really represent actually what you're trying to do it sort of represents like the implementation details so instead you want to be able to have a data structure that says you know uh I want to send like um 10 usdc to ZK validator because they're doing a great job organizing this conference um or something like that and that's all right and then you want to be able to translate this into a plan so that this helps developers to write better interfaces so that they don't have to manage like actually building these transaction plans and scanning through Note data and all of this stuff but it also helps users to have a more

comprehensible understanding of the contents of a transaction um so what about Advanced users what about Advanced biddlers right um so we've built the penumbra State model in a kind of interesting way so internally we've got this uh way that we've got a a copy on write State model um that means that um when we are internally within the application we're making modifications to the state we don't actually commit those changes down to the underlying storage what we do instead is we hold them in memory and we've got like a layered stack of modifications we can Fork the state we can do arbitrary things to it and then at some point we

can decide to commit it down but if we don't commit the state all the way down that means that we can actually just use the exact same mechanism to offer an RPC that says you can query a full node and ask it what if I did this what would happen and it can give you a hypothetical answer about what if you did that transaction using the exact same transaction logic and validation stuff as if you actually submitted the transaction which means that for people who are doing like trading watts and stuff like this this is actually like really useful okay cheaper um so uh fees have to exist because we don't want people to be using up all of

our Network bandwidth right so um we need a fee model and there's this cool paper about multi-dimensional fee markets that we're going to be implementing on penumbra it's very cool um but we need a specific fee model within that kind of Paradigm that's tuned for a zero knowledge chain Like Us in particular we want to place a premium on we want to place a premium on uh any actions that contribute to the stream of things that you have to download when you are synchronizing your client State because we want client sync to be fast so as a consequence we're going to charge more for actions in your transaction that don't just bloat the

state on the full nodes because full node operators have a bunch of resources but actions that bloat the state that you actually have to download as a client because clients necessarily have a lot of resources um but we realized that every penumbra transaction is actually secretly or not so secretly a micro ZK roll-up that consists of well the micro ZK roll up that's to say the commitment and zero knowledge proof of a single transaction we're rolling up a one transaction into one tiny little commitment to it and also the encrypted contents of said roll up and we thought to ourselves huh well why do we need two well we need two

because we want any client that has their seed phrase to be able to recover the entire contents of all of their state and we also need the recipient of the transaction to be able to decode uh the the notes that they have been sent but what if you're keeping track of all of your own State off chain and what if the recipient is always yourself so that's actually like a pretty reasonable scenario that scenario happens a lot if you're doing a bunch of Market making actively because that just consists of like open positions closing positions claiming rewards all of this cyclically to yourself so what if you could keep track of your own State and you don't uh and you're only sending to yourself then you don't need to publish the encrypted

data to the chain you can just use penumbra as a like micro ZK roll-up chain for all of your trading activity well you that would be great but you also need a way to durably track your own state um because you don't want to lose that state which means that you would make it unspendable like if if penumbra isn't holding all of your state then that means it's not just if you lose your seed phrase you you lose access to your funds it's if you lose your entire database of all of these tiny State fragments which seems a bit scary right because it's a lot easier to back up a seed phrase than it is to back up uh like a database that's in motion so we're building narsal narsal is a private uh or like a permissioned

personal custody chain for penumbra it's based on tendermint consensus and What it lets you do is it does a threshold uh Keys it you do like a threshold signing using it you split your signing key across all of the shards of your narsal cluster um so that when you want to submit a transaction to penumbra you submit the transaction plan with for your penumbra transaction to the narcel cluster it does within the uh within like and that is a transaction in the narcel blockchain and what it does is it signs the transaction and it gives you back the signed transaction for you to then submit to penumbra and that means that everything that you do on

penumbra using the key that's distributed across your narsal cluster is itself tracked by the narcel blockchain so this is kind of an example of like you know blockchains are useful for things even in a less adversarial environment like some people are like oh well you know you don't need a blockchain for uh just keeping track of a database you could just use a replicated database well this is actually quite a useful replicated database and so we just are going to use temperament consensus to keep track of all of the shards of data and so you get threshold signing and you get keeping track of your private data and as a cons sequence what you can do is save on

sending all of the encrypted bits to the penumbra blockchain so if you're an active Market maker and you use this thing you save everybody's work downloading all of your private state that they don't care about and you save your own fees because you don't need to pay for the block space to store the encrypted blobs that you're storing locally in your own narsal cluster right so uh full stack private protocol design how hard could it really be well just do this think about all the bits Trace all of your data through this think about how to make it faster easier and cheaper and draw the rest of the auroburos thanks

thank you very much Finch maybe there are some questions yes questions anybody yes I cousins are um which uh I wonder um was the surprises content that you need to be proved by uh by witness and during our transactions such as for for instance for the uh protocol is managed to earn highs and um

receiver but for but but according to your um according to authorization and Europe seems to be he seems to manage to hide the whole transactions so how to how to deal how to do that um can you repeat the last bit [Music] um uh what is the what I I mean what part of this and and of the context of the transaction you need to be put into the business oh I see so when we're witnessing things um the stuff that we're witnessing is um the zero knowledge inclusion proof

within the shielded commitment tree so commitments to the existence of uh notes that you possess so that's in spends um it's also in swap in swaps in uh and in um uh in governance oh okay so the community is um because of the house the house value of each and is on calling or uh some um you're proving that you have custody of uh of a note or a node um

it's a yes you're proving you're proving that um that that the that a particular note did get uh included in the Merkel tree yeah that's right okay um this might be one for offline but as soon as you I'm very interested in penumbra using um interacting with other chains and using interchange accounts I think I may have incepted Henry to to push this forward um but the resource estimation is gonna seems like it's going to be very challenging um it's maybe not an issue now because

it's all subsidized but um you're doing all this work to uh you know multi-dimensional fee markets to to kind of estimate the resource consumption within penumbra um you kind of have a limitation that you don't want to call out to any clear text chain to understand the resources consumed there um have you what is the end game there if you if you want to interact with other chains and actually you know actually be able to estimate how how that's going to be paid for well you're the one that incepted Henry

to do that so let's chat afterwards yeah that's a really really good question and I I'm super curious to figure it out I do think we can I do think we can do something there but I I don't know the details yet any other questions okay thank you very much Finch thank you and you notice a slight change of the scene so I'm inviting our panelists from Celestia Skip and sommelier uh have we got Zaki as well here is Zaki

somewhere here test Okay cool so I think we've got a very broad uh panel title uh which is just disappeared but um so ICS mesh IBC and privacy and I think most of those would be enough for a panel on their own uh so we're going to try to maybe narrow the conversation a little bit um but basically I think broadly we want

to discuss Shad security and how that's affecting the cosmos ecosystem and I think that's a topic which is clearly very important in and will continue to be for the next year for the ecosystem and maybe touch on to how that is evolving and how it will impact things like privacy as well uh so at a high level you know the things in the title ICS mesh um Celestia potentially as well all have different benefits to builders who are coming to building Cosmos um and so I think just to get us kicked off it'd be great if you could each introduce yourselves and then also maybe uh say which part of that overall conversation you're most interested in

I'm Sam Hart I am the head of product and strategy at skip which is an Mev company and I previously worked at the ICF for about three years um not gonna lie this is a bit of a scary combination of topics but um uh I guess one thing that I can speak to is um I've done a lot of thinking about um uh what security means and um in my mind basically that's uh there's several different facets really you're trying to create some kind of

accountability Loop where there's there's like a form of verification um and some some form of um punishment or or way of enforcement and with that framing I think you can you can maybe like reason a little bit more clearly about the interaction between uh privacy and and security hi I'm Gabriel I'm a researcher at Celestia and teamlet of rocket um I'm excited about shared Security in the sense that Roll-Ups that are built on top of Celestia can

use Celestia as a shared security layer and it's interesting how by separating the stack into modular components um the things mentioned here like interchange security and merge security can interconnect and use components of the modular stack to increase the validation for example let's say we use mesh security and they want to have objective fault to validate is that there was a invalid State transition function

we enroll kit are developing prop rules for the cosmos SDK so mesh security could use those fraud Crews to prove to each other that hey this ventilator was lying and slashed them accordingly so there is a lot of interoperability here so it's very exciting to see that space longtime Cosmos computer co-founder of similier um I guess my like overview of is that privacy fits really well into like The Sovereign app chain model with its like own staking token the concern is that you know is that like what will

liquidity look like for that staking token um and a lot of the like so there's like a like so like Nevada is launching soon from the enoma team um and like it's like a privacy pool for the entire Cosmos ecosystem um but it doesn't really have any um robust let's say native value accrual mechanism uh and so you know you could end up in sort of the situation where you know namata is securing a very large amount of value in the IBC and wider ecosystem for a privacy point of view um but the chain itself um has like very little Economic

Security so you know it would be ideal to be able to like use privacy together with you know a shared security mechanism to make it easier to deploy privacy related Primitives um but uh there's also like enormous challenges to that like you know a lot of these things uh leverage um you know the actually having a validator set for like threshold encryption Etc um so like it makes it hard to like Port that into like a roll-up World easily uh you have uh the reality that uh like you're not running like cosmosm Etc on these chains um and like the staking modules are

different so like interacting them with like ICS or Mass security is non-trivial um so it's like what is going to be the common denominator there to sort of secure privacy enabled apps and today is like low liquidity environment um is an interesting challenge okay yeah it was some really interesting um touch points there just before we dive into any of those it would be great if someone wants to actually Define maybe for people who are less into the cosmos ecosystem what actually is uh ICS and what is mesh um I don't know if anyone okay yeah lucky go for it I can do it um so

um ICS interchange security is a product that is deployed to the cosmos Hub right now primarily developed by informal systems and mesh security is a kind of variant or different take on a similar concept that is primarily being advocated by the osmosis team and has a has a kind of collaborative group that's working on it um they're very similar they are both forms of staking so in the cosmos Hub case the atom token is uh is kind of reused or leveraged for

the for in order to stake on a secondary chain and in the mesh case there's kind of a bilateral or multilateral relationship between chains where both tokens are used to secure both chains um and there are some slight differences in you know the details under the hood in terms of how delegation is used and how the the kind of stake is split up how faults are accounted for and slashing works but the the general idea is that's a form of staking that is used to economically secure

a distal chain and and really it's the the main distinction is this like uh this kind of parent to child versus multilateral relationship awesome so I think um maybe it'd be interesting to start back on the the top exactly waste of um actually if you're if you want to launch for example a privacy preserving application whether that's a private stable coin or a mixer or something else um one of the issues you actually might face is that it's difficult to get enough security for your chain because you have low liquidity on uh maybe the staking asset or maybe validators don't

even want to run purely that chain because it exposes them to regulatory risk or anything else so I think it's going to be particularly important for private privacy focused applications to look at these alternative um security models um for each of you what do you think will be some of the most um sort of what would be the most interesting model for privacy preparing applications and for example with ICS um you know would current validators on the Hub be willing to run um these privacy chains in all cases and how do you think that will play out starting yeah maybe exactly sure

um I think all of these things represent big challenges in areas of uncertainty for the adoption of privacy and Cosmos is just that like is probably the most straightforward way of of looking at it um I think like one of the questions would be is like what's you know I think one of the things that will be will be there is like um essentially like what API do people have to implement in their in their privacy enabled application in order to even potentially opt into one of these systems so like the the like consumer chain which is like sort of the child uh chain of the uh and the security side which is where our

privacy preserving app though I'd say wanted to use the ad invalidator set um would sort of live um it's probably a pretty simple API to implement on the whole um it's probably like much simpler than let's say a staking module to implement so maybe we'll see you know it's a lot you know uh like that might be like an initial low hanging fruit but then it runs into the political uncertainty problem which is like the political uncertainty problem is like will will will the cosmos Hub vote for these things will big institutional stickers like you know coinbance and binance vote against it for you know regulatory reasons um and I don't think there's a single

way to know until someone tries interesting yeah um one of the ways you could circumvent that if you don't need for example threshold decryption for from the valve data set is to try to build your application as a rollup um because Celestia decouples data availability consensus and execution you can focus on the application layer so now new privacy applications have to bootstrap their own valve data set and create it's an overhead that hinders people to develop new applications and

iterate and maybe go through governance proposals and one of the other ways you could do it is focus on the application instead and build a roll-up that is focused on privacy enabled through ABCI and like IBC and delegate data availability and consensus to a data availability layer like Celestia do you want to add anything or um so I I have had a couple of conversations about um

so one of the other challenges with a privacy chain is um it is more difficult to fork in some instances and forking is one of the primary accountability mechanisms of a of a chain basically the threat of a fork kind of maintains some political equilibrium so maybe I just add that um this is like a another dimension that needs to be considered and it is one of the uh is one of kind of the key security facets of a restaking system so

um yeah but maybe just kind of put that into the into the air why is um is it hard to Fork privacy chains because uh State you can't Fork out a single balance um so if there's a misbehaving validator unless you've pulled out their their balance specifically uh there's no way to kind of remove them from the token set yeah essentially like edited balances like so like the notion of forking is like to a certain extent like there's this political threat that exists in

transparent Cosmos chains which is like you know the the prop 16 Juno threat which is like uh if you if there's a if social consensus moves against you with a sufficient amount of bigger um there's a a like you might end up on like a a sort of uh non-minority Fork that doesn't or minority Fork that doesn't uh um where and like the majority Fork won't have your balance but in a privacy preserving World um there's no possibility of doing like prop 16 right like you can't like balances are all private they're all hidden no one knows um no one would be able to like easily to edit the state to remove so on one hand you get like stronger property

rights um from privacy which is like I think a good thing um but like it definitely changes the like social equilibrium cool so it seems like we're we're in some sense waiting to see with some of these models you know and see them tested we have seen Neutron now go live as the first um so I ICS uhcs what have we learned enough from that have we learned anything from that and what would we need to see happen in order to have more clarity as to how these different models might work together some of the I mean it's it seems that like some of

the concerns about at least in the short run about validators not running the neutron chain um uh you know that was like the biggest uncertainty with ICS was right would uh especially like sort of like the low the low like there were two categories of of validators who expressed a lot of where there was concern was one it's like the low engagement exchange validators were there were they going to run the neutron chain um and then also you know um more regulated validators you know custodians Etc who expressed concern about being forced to you know run a new chain um that maybe wouldn't uh fit within their existing regulatory models we seem to have at least you know made it to

Step One um in that World um and that seems to have gone okay um and I think like I think there's going to be a lot of uncertainty about this until for quite some time um and like a a privacy enabled chain that gets through governance I think we'll continue to uh we'll we'll continue to ask novel questions I think it's maybe a good problem to have if we're asking that question like a privacy chain has been so successful that it it needs additional security to to ensure that you know it doesn't get taken down by a malicious entity um I would love to have that problem

actually um yeah I think one of I guess like one of the other things that hasn't come up as much as like all of the like so like we act as if like mesh Roll-Ups and uh and ICS are like like defined points whereas what the actual reality is we're going to see a lot more there's a lot of possibility for recombinations so like the existence of a fraud proof or a validity proof um and it makes it a lot easier to for instance have like subsets of validator sets uh run a chain rather than having the entire validator set so you could end up like especially in a world where

like you have like uh like sort of uh roll-up friendly privacy Allah um like what uh Aztec is building like that kind of a system could be used to do a system that was like a subset of the Hub validators run it right instead of all because it's like fraud provable state but you'd still get a validator set and be able to do threshold encryption um so like not also like you know all these things can be recombined and in new and interesting ways they're not like discrete points that are like exclusive yeah and maybe it's worth at this point like teasing out I guess how I think about like a roll-up model versus um uh interchange security or mesh security

model like basically Roll-Ups um you put a lot of emphasis on the verification aspect of security um you know DK Roll-Ups you can prove that the state transition happened and uh mesh security interchange security put a lot of emphasis on enforcement so if something happens we can punish misbehavior um so there's actually a high degree of complementarity between these things a the fraud an optimistic Roll Up is kind of a hybrid between these because there's a an economic bounty in order to ensure verification

um but um yeah but it just kind of speaks to the the expansiveness of this design space like you can combine these in interesting ways and and we can actually push quite far on the verification side of um privacy chains by having a light clients that verify the entire state for instance so so there's there's different ways to increase your security level um as a sovereign chain how do sort of data availability concerns tie into that problem if you if you want to be doing using live plans

for for example proving slashing conditions between producer and consumer chains or any other sort of variant so um with Celestia you can delegate the data availability and consensus part where a rollup can post their transaction data to Celestia and the celestial Elders agree that those bytes exist and if this Roll Up is also run by an ICS chain where the validators are producing the blocks for the Roll-Ups then the data availability can be still

on Celestia and those validators would execute those transactions and produce for example the block headers so you could have a combination of Economic Security that is for approvable or that you can have availability proof on that and like use both scalability mechanisms here cool so something to touch on uh towards the end how um will all of these and how do how do you need to imagine Mev uh sort of evolving in the ecosystem with these different types of models maybe it's a little bit too early to really be seeing how it will change but do you have any sense of what that could look like um maybe exactly first well I mean I

think one of the most robust mechanisms for just eliminating Meb is having privacy right if uh if the block proposer doesn't know what the transaction is going to do and can't simulate the future State transition um they can't uh easily they cannot actually they can't really extract Mev from the system so I think uh or like some types of Mev will can be can be mitigated and go away um there's definitely you know there's still like being able to like adjust your like liquidity positions uh at top of block and stuff like that which might be which would be valuable um and I think the Celestia and the world kit teams have done like an enormous amount of thinking about different models and where Meb uh

accrues there um yeah yeah um skip has been thinking about this a bit it's a little bit early but um as Accu was saying if you are hiding um order flow then um there is uh less opportunity for economic leakage in those transactions on the other hand um typically the decision to to hide order flow has you know some trade-offs here you're you're going to be batching or introducing noise into the system so just to set up trade-offs there

um there's another dimension to this that we've we've actually put a bunch of time into which is um uh in the you very likely want um privacy at specific points in the supply chain um really for accountability reasons so I for instance it would be helpful if validators are unaware of the incoming transactions at the moment that they receive a block um so they have no um incentive to withhold that block and try to extract value in that way so that can

help with the the kind of system robustness um yeah there's a lot of directions to go with this but I think it's very early days and privacy will likely play a role at various points in the you know in the flow from transaction from intent creation to uh to execution yeah and one of the nice things about building this ecosystem in like a plug and play way where one entity can focus on one thing and people can delegate that as a service is also if you start looking into uh for example shared sequencers

where a roll-up will be able to delegate transaction ordering to a shared sequencer and now how does the the sequencer or those transactions and do they maybe have some kind of Mev protection or acceleration or like depending on who does what in what kind of way you can increase or decrease Mev and redistributed which is very exciting because the the modular design space explodes the moment you have very clear roles and those roles can be explored in their own way awesome thank you all very much for the

panelists I think it's clear that actually in a way it's almost a challenge because the design space is so huge to really explore all the different routes this can be taken but the best thing we can hope for is that one or multiple privacy focused projects actually launch and and use these mechanisms and start to really give us Clarity on how they should and can be used um but yeah thank you very all very much for your discussion foreign we now have a 15-minute break there are tea and coffees at the back and uh snacks around the corner and also remember that we have zkv

Rockaway Lounge on your left so there's some team members waiting for your questions all right so we are back with the talks

and I would like to introduce on the stage Nadeem from nem hello everyone thank you very much for having me here my name is Nadeem and today I'm going to be talking about winning the crypto Wars I didn't come up with this title it's a bit it's a bit extra but yes we are going to be talking about interesting new technologies for enhancing the state of privacy on the internet in ways that are relevant for cryptographic and blockchain applications as well as hopefully

general purpose user applications my job at Nim which I started recently is head of software integration and my mission is to integrate Nim the Privacy technology that I'm going to be talking about into as many different softwares as it makes sense stuff like telegram I don't know signal secure wallets and so on um also I am the author of a critically acclaimed puzzle Adventure game called Dr kabushi's labyrinthin laboratory I brought a few copies with me please take a copy I will leave them here it's a very nice puzzle game it's got over 100 Levels an original soundtrack pixel art stuff like that I really care

a lot about this game I spent like a year and a half working on it so I genuinely hope that you'll take a copy and try it out it's available on Steam Windows Mac Linux and Nintendo switch but Nintendo would murder me if I tried to give a copy for free so I won't this is only for the steam version they're very they're very strict Nintendo their legal team is like the Yakuza it's actually really insane you should look it up uh anyway so uh before I get fired for seguring into my video game um let's talk more about Nim so the purpose of nim is to deal more with the issue of Internet surveillance the thesis that we have here is that no existing solution can defend against the

NSA and private companies and cyber criminals well like Google meta and so on differentiating which one of those two go into companies and which goes into cyber criminals is an exercise left to the reader um you know we have some technologies like for example uh this clicker that doesn't work I'm trying to click the button but nothing is happening it's not it's not very effective as Pokemon would say uh there no still can someone skip whoa nope that's too many skipped slides okay could someone please go back to the

previous slide okay next slide please I'm just going to put this aside for now all right so there's a strong demand for privacy which is why we're here Tor uh itself keeps growing especially when things happen around the world like you know the Ukraine war or protests in Iran and other things also signal keeps growing but the thing with the torrent signal is that they lack what nasiv Nikola Talib would call an anti-fragil funding model namely they don't really they're not resilient rather or they could be more resilient signal which is an excellent uh

contribution to online privacy nevertheless had to be supported by an independent donation from Brian Acton which is you know of one one in a million sort of thing and Tor has suffered from uh stagnating growth next slide please so our plan is to sort of offer a more decentralized and more incentivized mixed net that can provide better privacy than Tor but also at the same time solving the resiliency sustainability and incentivization problems that uh may be faced by Torah or some other privacy enhancing Technologies we do this with a token and we also have some other technologies

that I'll talk about in a bit but first I would like to show you next slide please this comparison of how Nim is different from other similar technology so let's start at the bottom when you're using a VPN you're connected to the VPN and your traffic just goes through the VPN and onto the website whatever Netflix that you're using or whatever it is and there's no real anonymity Happening Here the you'll notice that these little dots they're ordering is the same these are packets their size is the same everything is the same and the VPN itself the VPN provider can see all your traffic vpns don't really offer any anonymity in my opinion Taurus of course much better Torah is a very nice technology that has actual

onion routing packets are routed through a bunch of different Tor nodes operated by volunteers and Tor has been very successful at helping activists and journalists and privacy interested individuals over decades I think but nevertheless packets can still be de-anonymized via their size and timing patterns this is what we try to improve upon by using mixnet technology in Nim which is an area of research that has existed for a while as well it's better because it anonymizes the size and the timing of the packets it mixes The Ordering of the packets as well to be fair this leads to a slower service than something like tour but

something a lot more secure actually in terms of anonymity it can resist a much more capable Global active attacker thank you for forwarding to the next slide no that was the good call actually so in our case we have multiple hops we have covered traffic we have timing obfuscation like I said these are just you know some of the technical ways in which we differentiate ourselves from existing privacy technology and hope to offer a better product to our consumers next slide please if you look at it from the perspective of the user basically you're running the Nim client on your machine we're using the Sphinx encrypted packet format to forward those packets through the mixed

Network and then the mixed networker connect is throws the packets through the other side to the application Services friends Etc and the service provides the service provider itself is free to like run a service provider node which interfaces with Nim for the user and you know there's there's ways to get Nim running on the user's side there's a waste for there's a way for service providers like telegram or signal to run Nim on their site as well and so there's a diversity in the ways that Nim can be integrated across uh you know a stack a product stack or a network stack next slide please um the nem token is what handles the incentivization mechanism here so when you run a tour node you're contributing

to online privacy but you're paying money to run the node and there's no um resilient incentivization mechanism that's happening there but when you're running a Nim token sorry a mix Network you're benefiting from the tokenomics uh present there which are built on Cosmos incidentally because you are um being rewarded via a proof of mixing so like there's a proof of mixing mechanism that looks at how much your mixed network node has actually oh thank you how much your mixed network node has actually mixed and based on that you get a token reward so the more you mix the more you contribute to online privacy the more tokens you earn and this

hopefully will incentivize people to uh you know and also establish a more resilient ecosystem for online privacy uh the Nim token benefits the user because they can use it to access them it benefits mixed nodes because they are rewarded for contributing to the name infrastructure and ecosystem validators of course exist to do what validators always do you guys know about that stuff and service providers you know signal any other service providers they can also purchase the token and provide it on behalf of their users so that their users can use their product with them for free uh my job like I said earlier is the software integration aspect and so I'm

responsible for looking at how developers can integrate them into their products uh one cool way that we're doing that is by offering a very nice uh set of sdks so we have a rust SDK for Nim that allows to integrate them natively into any rust application get The Cutting Edge performance associated with rust Stacks we also have a typescript SDK which allows you to interface with a webassembly version of the Nim client in the browser and that's also very nice because it means that you can deploy them in browser extensions and any atom or Towery or electron app no atoms the editor electron app and in the browser as well and we also recently started working on a well finished

actually and published uh in collaboration with chainsafe a lit P2P native transport for Nim so you know how in lib P2P you can specify the transport and it has it comes with a bunch of transports like webrtc websocket and quick well nem is the only lip P2P transport that provides full privacy mixed net guarantees it's the first privacy preserving native transport for lip P2P implemented in Rust and you can check it out on GitHub today that's one of the ways in which we're bringing them integration to the general public in in more and more ways so it has a simple well-specified rust API it's very nice it does all the things that you would expect are done when you have you know good software engineering taking place

and all of that is there um when it comes to the users we also want to make them more accessible to users themselves like normal people who just want better privacy not necessarily developers or anything like that right now we have this app it's more of a proof of concept called Nim connect and it basically allows you to open up a proxy on your computer and you can use that proxy to Route telegram through Nim and so on but the idea is that we were going to expand Nim connect to become the Nim app so you just download Nim connect on your computer and then nemconnect can detect like oh you have signal installed you have whatever installed and it'll automatically try to connect to these apps and Route them through them for you that's my goal personally to I think it's a nice idea

um and we also have the Nim wallet which is really nice not only because it works on all desktops and it's you know nice user interface and so on but it also has a good UI and ux for managing mixed nodes so you can manage your mix node from the wallet via a nice graphical user interface you don't need to use the command line even though your mix node is running on a server somewhere Isn't that cool um I personally this feature was implemented before I joined them and when I discovered it I was really excited about it because it means that you know not only trading them tokens but also like just running a mix node managing the mix node all happens from one place and that's very nice and allows a more integrated user experience for anyone who wants to contribute to the network you can even monitor like

the rewards that you're earning from your mix node and so on uh we also have this thing which I don't really understand how it works quite yet so I'll skip it all right so just honestly like and um and so basically this is what I just described you know you have the mixed node rewards that are being determined via a cosmos smart contract um and uh that's being validated by a bunch of validators the way that many services on Cosmos work instead of um you know cryptocurrency mining we have mixed net based proof of mixing Mining and you can stake your Nim in mixed nodes to uh

basically give a vote of confidence to them allowing them to Route more traffic and earn more rewards so there's a staking element in the Nim token and the mixed node economics as well and yeah everyone is happy we I think this establishes an economic system where it works well for everyone this year in integration we have upcoming work in terms of integrating native Nim support into applications I had an encouraging discussion with someone here today who was looking at integrating them natively into a technology that you heard about earlier and that's very nice there's also going to be sdks and layers for independent developers that just want to use Nim and those exist already and are quite

functional and we also want to give users control themselves to just go ahead and download the Nim app and use it right without needing to deal with code bases and so on because how will we reach the end user otherwise that is going to be the ultimate test of the real world viability of the technology and the product thank you very much for your attention today Nim is a cool thing that you should check out this is our website please feel free to send me an email make sure to hit like And subscribe and stay tuned for more videos thank you very much [Applause] any questions there are some questions wonderful yes

yes please thank you do mixnet node operators also be do they also have to be validators or are those two separate roles and if so how do they sort of work together Nim mixed nodes and then validators are two completely separate roles they run two completely separate rust binaries there's Nim Dash mix node and Nim Dash validator uh and uh anyone can run a mixed node right now in order to run a validator well you can run one but to be listed as a validator you have to basically contact Nim uh not me someone more politically involved uh to to be listed um and uh the rewards for uh validators are also slightly different I think and I'm not really sure how they work uh but it's it's a it's a significantly very

different role I think there's no there's no overlap sure you have a gentleman over here yeah quick question kind of related who did your token economics they're pretty good and that's kind of rare for infrastructure projects uh the token economics were done uh many years before I joined the company which is about six weeks ago to be honest I don't know uh a good person to ask would be Harry Halpin and I this is my personal uh thinking I'm not this might be totally false but I think that someone from a16z helped but I'm not sure okay

uh what are your thoughts on other maybe more established projects like iCloud private relay and they're sort of like you know techniques do you think being Mass Market is better than what you're doing perhaps well I think that iCloud private relay is a very successful project specifically because it has um it out it out competes us and basically everyone else in terms of being able to give a strong user experience to integrate with the user stack and that is something that in general uh cool crypto Anarchist whatever technology fails at so far hence why they hired me six weeks ago as head of software integration right so in

that sense yes we need to catch up to them however strictly speaking our technology is superior when it comes to the Privacy guarantees that it can offer and that's just how it is right like if you study it if you live do statistical modeling if you look at the cryptography it's just better however can we make it as performant and as seamless for the user that's something that the field has always struggled to do and recently it's been taking these questions more seriously and hopefully it will continue to do so okay thank you very much if there is any other questions please ask them yes despite this eccentricity the game was actually not a joke so please come take a copy I'll just leave them right here

well no the speakers are going to be here I'll just leave them on this table over here so please take a free copy of my puzzle adventure game okay thank you very much Nadeem and I would like to introduce to the stage [Applause] guy from Secret okay I think we need one one minute for the game all right I think we can start the game

is there so during the lunch please take a copy okay hi everyone I'm guy I'm the founder of secret is generally a privacy preserving smart contract blockchain essentially it's a your run-of-the-mill Cosmos chain with cosmosm but the key differentiator is that users can encrypt inputs State can be encrypted and outputs can be encrypted so essentially you can do all kinds of private computations um I you know if there's one message uh that I think people here should take is that privacy in my opinion and I've been in this for like a decade

is very misunderstood so usually when you talk about privacy in web 3 it's always a discussion about um you know how to do private transactions how to do Anonymous transactions how to hide your IPS all like the the conversation before me these are all very important problems but the problem is that when people think that this is all what privacy is about it limits a discussion so anytime I go like on a podcast on a Twitter space it always gets into this box of you know should we allow people to anonymize their transactions their IPs uh what is the importance of protecting your own data and how should we deal with Regulators again a very important

discussion I'm sure like half of the day would be about that but I want to say that privacy extends way way um a way where it goes way deeper than that in web 2 we just assume that we have privacy we just assume that it's built into our applications at least in some form yeah the big companies holding on our data but it's not that the whole world can probe in and see what we're doing and in practice if you think about web 3 because everyone can see the data there are many applications that we can't see that we can do today um think about all kinds of games you know casinos poker um you know a strategy PVP games all of those require some kind of hidden state

that it's segmented between the players if you think about sealed beat auctions generally people don't care about the privacy of their auctions no regulator will come on board and say oh your bid was Private that is like you know your money laundering like that's not a discussion you need to do still be documents because they're more efficient especially if we're going to start having things like Mev markets and all that um and there are many many more use cases um and it's secret um really what we're trying to focus on these days is basically making it clear that these are the use cases that we should focus on and with this kind of like umbrella thing called privacy service we're basically trying to externalize it Beyond secret like you can do all of these on secret today but

it's less interesting I mean security is a limited ecosystem Cosmos is a much bigger ecosystem evm is a much bigger ecosystem and those are really the the the let's say the domains that we're trying to kind of uh penetrate with these privacy and service concept now I'm not going to talk about all use cases I'm actually just going to talk about one which is more of a passion research project of mine that we launched this week and I'm slightly going to touch a second one as well so the first one is going to be unstoppable wallets um there's a research paper if you want I can give you the link it went up or just go on ePrint it went up on ePrint yesterday and then the second thing is by basically on chain Randomness and there are many ways to get Randomness

today in blockchain but all of them are off-chain and Via secret you can do it on chain um so let's start drill deep into Unstoppable wallets um so wallets in general I'm sure everyone who knows that they're essentially private Keys you use a private key you sign a transaction blockchain has a public key you can either move your funds send them to someone else use a contract do something some operation or you cannot but that is also a single point of failure if you lose your keys or if someone takes it you're done so you know there's this then idea of okay let's uh spread the let's not have like one Honeypot let's spread it around let's have a multi-sig wallet uh how many people are familiar

with NPC wallets here okay so multisig wallets how many people are familiar with that Okay so I guess I'll explain both multi-sig wallets are very simple instead of one person controlling the wallet you have a group it can be 8 out of 10 people 5 out of seven one out of two whatever you want to do it NPC wallets are the same they're a bit more technically sophisticated actually much more they have some benefits the biggest benefit is that they're usually cross chain so whenever you have a multi-sig implementation you know you have one for Bitcoin and and the forks one for evm and that's usually a smart contract and the forks you have a different one for Cosmos and each change basically needs

to roll out their own when you do it via MPC multi-party computation you basically are building something that can go on any chain um the problem and by the way NPC wallets are generally are winning the game so like companies like file blocks now coinbase all of those companies are basically they're moving to operate um in this way you have the service provider here they have like you know one of the keys and then you have one or more users um that are co-signers and that's how you get more security so let's say I'm a I'm a company I can sign up to fireblogs they we generate this MPC wallet they get half of the key I get half of the

key or I can do things like I have one half of the key and they will co-sign with me for any transaction that is up to like ten thousand dollars and then maybe there are three out of five people in the organizations that are able to sign on um transactions that are high that are higher than that so the service provider X is both a co-signer but also is this like policy engine now the problem with this model is that there's still a lot of trust in the service provider so it's not as bad as like you know going on a centralized exchange and using that as a custodian but um and they and obviously the service provider cannot steal the money because they only have access to half of

the key I mean it's obviously more secure from the user perspective because now even if the user is bleached there is like another service provider but if that service provider is out then you lose access to your funds unless you have a backup um they are usually operating in closed Source um if you've worked with these companies it's very hard to add like new assets and new features like it's really more of an Enterprise kind of web 2 solution not really the kind of like open platform that we want in web3 and what we did with unstoppable wallets essentially we took the service provider part and we put something that is much more familiar to people in the space a blockchain smart contract and now if you half of the key sits with basically the

blockchain with the validators and you can split that across the value details as well and then there's a smart contract which you can program and you can now start to basically program on-chain wallets um with whatever functionality that you want and obviously as long as the blockchain leaves like there's no situation where the blockchain goes offline and you lose access to your funds um the problem with this approach that we had um and it almost killed it is that um MPC requires um pretty heavy duty cryptographic building blocks and we looked at all of the uh threshold ecdsa basically the MPC algorithms to do this kind of thing and

we try to extrapolate how that would run on chain and it would completely break our Network or any Cosmos Network or any evm network for that matter in existence it's just too expensive it won't work so we did the kind of stupid in retrospective of actually building our own algorithm and running our own um it took us a while but after a few months we actually got something which is very very useful so we built a new threshold DC DSA protocol that is on-chain friendly and that can run inside of a smart contract um if people here are from like the ZK area I like to correlate this like this is kind of like analogies to how in ZK

you know um it's very very inefficient to use like normal uh symmetric ciphers or hash functions so there's this effort to build like ZK pool friendly hash functions so this is in a way similar like it's very very slow to run this kind of cryptography on chain so we had to kind of with that in mind come up with the solution that is friendly on chain um it also has other benefits like robustness and furnace basically it's much more resilient than usual multisig wallets um and to be clear this is not for secret or this is not just for Cosmos this is meant to basically be a cross chain mechanism to sign and control Wallets on

any chain the best analogy here is that Unstoppable wallets are kind of like a building block to do cross chain account obstruction so account obstruction is this idea of smart contact Wallets on ethereum here's an idea how you can do something that can work on ethereum Solana Cosmo secret whatever you want um and this is an example where we basically have a smart contact wallet on secret but you sign it with uh you sign transactions with it on ethereum and we that was the first example where we got it to mean it um all right so I think one point to drive home is that these smart wallets

they're programmable completely and we think there are many use cases that you can build and use them for and we implement it too one of them is obvious and the other is less obvious just to show that the the the their expressible power um so the obvious one was to do basically a multi-sig wallet so you need five out of eight people seven out of ten whatever you define when you launch the the wallet but you also have a spending limit in this case we put like just as an example like a one if spending limit so basically when you try to sign a transaction when users are trying to sign a transaction the contract verifies that they get enough signatures and that the it actually

parses the ethereum transaction and if you only cosign it if it's less than one ethereum and you can you know come up with schemes that are much much more reliable than this um but I think the cooler use case because that's not something that people think of when they say this for the first time we didn't think about it uh when we started um you know there's in crypto we always operate in this um scenario where we move assets we don't move private Keys we don't move wallets it's always that those are static and you move assets from one wallet to another but there are many use cases in many markets that actually operate on the wallet level they don't operate on the

asset level so if you think about things like you know if you lost money in FTX right and you have a claim and now there's this like uh trust like pen and paper based like over-the-counter markets where people are selling their claims um basically they're sending their their claims to get some immediate liquidity what if you could find a trust this way where I could actually sell my wallet which may have eligibility for like an FTX claim in a way that I probably revoke my access to that wallet and the and the buyer gets it and and with this mechanism you can actually do that another use cases VCS you know often this is bind to like thefts and

E-liquid deals and again there's a huge over-the-counter market for that so again if like a VC wants to get out of like a illiquid position they can here use this mechanism to sell the wallet and not their assets um there are many other use cases for this um I think the point is to get developers to actually try to think what more can be done one less example which we didn't develop but I do want to touch on is what I consider unruggable dials in my opinion one of the biggest shortcomings of Dao's today is that the the at the end of the day holders vote on whatever but usually the actual power the actual

Treasury and funds it resides at a very very small Committee of several people and those people can technically listen to the Dao or not they can do whatever they want so what if you can have a smart wallet like this um where there are specific rules that the community sets in a smart contract on how the Dow can actually spend their funds and maybe this is being composed with another contract a voting contract for the Dow such that if ever for example the dad wants to do something bigger like maybe make a really big spend that requires the entire vote of confidence from the community so maybe that contract basically absorbs information like

voting info like voting results from another dial voting contract and only if and only when that happens can the multisig actually spend the funds in that way um one less detour because this is probably of separate interest like we had to put a fairly deep cryptography into causalism and into secret to make it happen um uh one of them was put in additively homophic encryption which basically gives you the ability to do certain operations over encrypted data on chain but not all of them a this is the first but B um I think this is this goes this this

has potential and use cases that go beyond just um what we're talking about today like one example you can do encrypted voting contracts um using this mechanism completely respective to the wallet thing and the last point I'm going to touch is everything I talked so far is like there's code samples there's research backing it security proofs all that but it's more or less poc in research level this is this is different so this is basically something we deployed in mainnet a few weeks ago we call it secret vrf it's simply a way to consume Randomness to your application or your chain in a very

unpredictable way and do it on chain there are off Chain Solutions to do this but this is the first on-chain example and right now we have apis to all other IBC and Cosmo chains and we're working on an evm version as well um so yeah I'll open up for questions most important takeaway message is privacy is not just normal it's not just important but it's really also useful hopefully if if anything you take from these then it's that message thanks okay thank you very much we're running a little bit late so we have time for one question anybody [Music] no questions okay thank you guy then

thank you thank you so now I would like to introduce to this stage our panelists from oh one loves and Elio and Anna Rose from zkv [Music] figure out my setup foreign

so yeah this is the last kind of piece of content panel before our lunch um to give a little bit of framing for this particular panel we did this also last year the idea with this was to introduce ZK projects to the cosmos ecosystem but also kind of get a sense for folks working outside of Cosmos what it would take maybe to get into it maybe as a starting point why don't we do a quick intro can you tell us a little bit about yourself and about the project so um I'm going first I guess I'm Florian I do engineering for over one Labs um to give a bit of background I guess of one Labs is the company that

incubated minoprotocol and we remain a still a very active core contributor to the protocol amongst other very capable companies so Mina is one thing and then we do have a second thing called snuggages which is a very powerful typescript um sort of like CK toolkit SDK which allows you to write Mino smart contracts your knowledge smart contracts and recursive circuits so yeah cool and Daniel um so I'm here representing Elio but I don't think I was necessarily outside of the cosmos ecosystem I used to lead the protocols team at stake fish um and yeah Elio is a you can call it a

zkl1 um and yeah fun fact Matt Greene was my advisor in grad school and so I'd known about Elio and its papers or knowledge execution for a long time so yeah a lot of the work I do is very close to that I mean it's very much in the ZK ecosystem but you might be a good person to speak about this you moved a little bit from I mean you had been very active in Cosmos what's the change like when you when you step outside into ZK land I don't think I necessarily left Cosmos but I did I did rage quit my last company so but I I think um yeah I ZK so I had actually

been a part of I guess like the Z case I used to do bioinformatics research for a few years and we we use fhe a lot and then we had to use EK in that but it's really exciting to see ZK find its sort of Home in um immutability getting some Unchained verifiability and um the entire stack of composability and that blockchain offers though yeah and maybe to give some description like when we talk about the ZK ecosystem it's sort of a collection of it's sometimes it's like it goes from like applications who want to build on ZK systems using privacy all the way to like zkl ones and I think you know a lot of the

conversation last year and something we want to continue is this idea of like how do these projects either applications or the l1s actually Connect into the cosmos ecosystem is there any benefit to doing that I'm wondering if you if either of you have had thoughts on that especially in prep for this panel yeah so um I mean it's a cosmos panel or like Cosmos event after all so that's a very important thing um demeanor protocol the Mina ecosystem is actively considering integration with other blockchains for example there's the anneal Bridge which is a trustless CK Bridge which allows you to bridge the meaner State over to ethereum and you know that that's just one bridge and I

guess potentially in the future there could also be more purchase to other ecosystems and chains so that is one possibility so yeah yeah maybe yeah I think that's exactly right maybe another way to look at it is perhaps at the infrastructure service provider level let's say like the validators um I I think that validators have like this unique position to be able to see and um support a lot of different blockchains so Cosmos obviously and then ethereum polka dot tezos Solana and then Elio for example and I think they they validators can be a pretty effective bridge in both understanding the tech stacks of these different ecosystems and

then they're probably some of the best perhaps advisors in these blockchains in the ability to connect so I think there's a lot that the L ones or even l2s have to learn from validators and kind of seeing like right as an example right blockchains will rise and fall some some of them will disappear but then the validators are mostly always there if they don't die so yeah and I mean you just talked about bridging to ethereum and that does seem to be a narrative that's grown in the last year versus like literally since last year um but I mean obviously we're here in a

place which which you know promotes more like an IBC route do you think that's sort of that look at ethereum is that almost like a bear Market phenomenon and a look back is it sort of like oh we'll go to where the it's still warm and not necessarily to where the future could be yeah so um I guess my personal opinion is that um ideally you would connect all the blockchains with each other it doesn't matter if it's ethereum or non-etherium um certainly at the moment ethereum is a very hot topic that's where all the I guess capital is where all the projects are but I know that for example in the community there are people working on Roll-Ups

um on the Mina in the Mina ecosystem and they are exploring a sort of like layer 2 interoperability Universe which I can imagine but also then interact with Cosmos look at potentially IBC integrate with that so I think there's a lots of potential but they are currently at the The Hop topic is ethereum but I hope we can continue and then look at other blockchains connect the overall blockchain world so maybe yeah maybe just to add on to that it's it's interesting because um when there are these like sort of connections or Bridges to other ecosystems sometimes it's like if we connect to ethereum then we hope that ethereum devs will come onto Cosmos and then develop

on our side or or maybe it goes vice versa there's there's a pretty big like centralized exchange chain that right we had been in Converse like Cosmos some of the cosmos folks that have been in conversation within like the bridging was great right we could we could do that and it was just a matter of how we needed to upgrade certain things on their end but then the majority of the conversation had always become like oh like what what do you want out of this bridging it's like well we want your devs right we want like Cosmos devs to come over to build on your thing and then maybe like so I even though like I think ethereum is is great and we're getting a lot of this sort of connection point but then there's like the flows

are going in in certain directions and and perhaps like that bridging is that we want to like suckle on the teat of ethereum and then have all this like you know extra liquidity come in or but which is not a bad idea right but then I think you know we we eventually are like Kumbaya in the beginning and then when someone gets big enough they want to be their own King yeah I just briefly want to add to that um yeah I totally agree I feel like most bridges are even though they may be too big they are like mostly leading towards one side so I think there's there's a lot of potential for a truly interoperable layer 2 world we're like chains interact with each other they they benefit from each other not

only one Central I guess chain and just a very big beautiful interoperability world I have a question that actually speaks to both projects in and outside of Cosmos which is how do we get people building private applications is it like what I mean I think both of your projects have a version of that but maybe even think past that what do you think we need to get more people in because like that like if you only have a small pool that's like moving in and off like around Bridges and still the same devs you're fighting for a very small pie so how do we grow the pie yeah so um we have heard that in the previous talks I think a very very big important thing is

user and developer experience right on the application Level for the users but also on the um sort of like tooling levels for the developers um if we only have a very I guess like centralized minority that knows how to use these tools then we will not have any more developers working with it um there's like an entry curve a lot of learning you have to do to develop meaningful applications so it's important to make that more accessible also on other chains overall very accessible toolkits easy to understand so you don't have to be like a cryptographer or like only a couple of handful people that are already doing the same thing on five other chains and then just I guess copy pasting that over

so like opening up the developer experience developer pool and then I think users will follow they will use these applications if they are good which they hopeful are so yeah I also think that ZK itself is not just a web three thing as I'd mentioned right we were using it when we were doing just bioinformatics genetic sequencing research I'm just sharing data between Labs um I think that opens up this huge opportunity of like the web 2 world that has an opportunity to use like this Tech platform that is going to be on on blockchain and and I think a really good example is I think I don't think ZK is necessarily like a speculative value proposition

that blockchains are providing that have ZK functionality it's more of like a useful value like for example right Bitcoin people some people hate it some people like it and so like there's like that that that argument that all Bitcoins Burning Down the planet a lot of people use the same sort of argument with AI you know using massive GPU farms and ZK is also using these massive GPU Farms that eventually turn into fpgas and A6 but then right like the the argument like so so for example from the climate perspective you know the Aerospace industry uses nine times more image nine times more carbon emissions than Bitcoin but then people don't like vilify it right as

they do with it because there's value that people have but with ZK I would say that's more analogous to the Aerospace industry in that the the value is not necessarily speculative in that right just like number go up but then people are using it right like people are using it in consortiums we were using it in like genetic like sharing data back and forth between labs and fhe like there's like a lot of gaming applications Etc ekml like hiding some of them and allowing people to be more comfortable sharing their data to train these models I think they're like I think the key point is that ZK allows the web 2 world to interact with this technology platform that is native to to these to to the blockchain and that will I think naturally allow let's say clients to

come in or different Industries to also use this because it's a it's a necessary component and that that that special part is basically the the the rise of like the sort of pow style ZK miners that are going to have this Hardware that's now now much more efficient because so much money has gone into the r d to develop them um because right the value associated with these tokens a la like what happened with how bitmain was able to get so much money into r d because a Bitcoin value went up and they're able to develop more efficient and effective Asics so I want to kind of take a little bit of a step back to some of you said earlier which was about the languages and so I know each project I don't think you

mentioned actually Leo the language that Alia developed so there is this fragmentation happening a little bit in the languages the VK dsls I think I know at least 12 maybe more and almost every blockchain will have its own every ZK focused L1 will have its own language do you think this complicates it being adopted into other ecosystems do you think that if we had maybe even on our side a bit more of a standard that that would help to get these EK tools into the other ones yeah no I mean certainly um there's like you said plenty of dsls um some arrest like some are like typescript libraries not necessarily as well like what

snocker.js is um so and I guess it can be confusing at first for developers getting into that there's a lot to choose from not all do the same thing all require I guess slightly different like a knowledge of certain implementation details so I think it would certainly be beneficial to just overall improve the developer experience and that certainly includes the I guess DSL tooling layer how to write applications how to work with them right I mean if you develop an application on one chain you you want to make sure that however you can transfer to other chains you don't want to like rewrite everything every single day for every

other potential use case so I think it's it's certainly very beneficial to have a common ground if it's not on the I guess DSL layer then maybe on the like a circuit representation layer making sure that you can integrate with other Stacks other tool systems that includes testing and all that stuff so yeah maybe I this is maybe it's just maybe I'm being naive but I think that if there's a purpose and reason that people need to build these EK programs then you're going to have to just learn the language and suck it up I think I I don't I don't think it's necessarily a problem that there's many different languages

um but right if if there's a language that you need to learn to build a ZK program that you need to serve a particular application or purpose or initiative then just learn it like I don't you know you just because it's like you have like this evm compatible ZK stuff and it's like maybe it's not fit for purpose but these dsls exist for a reason because they are fit for a purpose to build these EK programs maybe I think what this makes me think of though is this idea and I've talked about it a few times on different episodes of like if you wanted to be private in a multi-chain context what you're describing is each side would have to like be right written in a different language and I think that

leads to a lot of vulnerability and actually I kind of want to even bring this to IBC and maybe also other bridging but like you know wouldn't it be kind of cool like I think IBC is cool because of the fact that it's this this thing that everyone can agree on like wouldn't it be cool if there's also a ZK language that was sort of agreed upon within maybe this ecosystem or like more generally I realize this is like there's a big ZK topic yeah maybe like you're saying maybe it's a standard maybe it's like the bridging State like the communication standard which IBC I guess can yeah Implement so no yeah definitely I think that's

probably two different types of um standards that you can think of one on the very high language layer like having the exact same language and then I guess something lower which may be the circuit representation or it may also be the communication between proof systems so that's also a big part we've only been talking about languages and they then compiled to their own or like use utilize their own proof system to do the proving of their proofs but they they can't really necessarily I guess interact with each other on the proof system so if you have a proof on bomb chain or like from one toolkit then you have a proof on the other toolkit what do you do you can't like you can't do anything with it so you essentially lost all the benefits of CK if you have two

this different proofs um so I guess it would also be beneficial to look at to a look at the integration level of proof systems and I'm not a cryptographer so I don't know how to do that but I think that would also be beneficial or maybe I don't want to keep shelling like validators but like I mean maybe it's like right because if there are these different ecosystems a lot of these ecos different ecosystems share the same values right there's obviously like The Usual Suspects but then maybe if they they are the same maybe they are this sort of like semi-trusted party that is able to communicate what needs to be communicated between those different ecosystems um but yeah yeah I think I think this is an idea that

still at least for me is still kind of developing of how and we we had talked about it like privacy on one chain privacy on another chain often coming in and out like going over a bridge just automatically removes the Privacy we had talked about like would there be private Bridges possible could IBC be made private could it if it Incorporated some and maybe it doesn't need the language so much on either side but yeah I do think there's there's a conversation here um I feel like we should have an IVC expert up on the stage to help us have that but um okay another question speaking of IBC is do you ever imagine implementing IBC could Mina or Elio

be and I like could you could you tap into this directly or do our privacy system is built so differently that it would be hard to do yeah um I guess we officially do not have any any plans at the moment but I can imagine that there are many community members building like compatibility layer twos and all that so I could certainly imagine that they take a look at that and and at least um take that as an ideal um certainly build up on that and maybe integrate with it but I guess we currently don't have plans in regards to that we are currently I guess more focusing on the approach that I mentioned and just to clarify what you were saying there is like you could have

a roll up on your system that would then have IBC integrated potentially yeah yeah I mean potentially right and then that could also integrate with other Roll-Ups other IPC compatible change and then you could do that again and just keep going I think if there's a very specific purpose then the bridge should be should be built like if there's just like a bridge to just have a bridge then like as he was saying like is what direction is is the things going yeah but I mean the ZK prover ecosystem like these pow style ZK miners they're free agents right they can they can provide their Z their proving services to any chain right if there are the cosmos ecosystem

has a has the ability to kind of like use that then right that's just you're just sharing um infrastructure providers and then they're in is like the closeness that you can have between the two ecosystems that's actually that that world like what that will actually look like I've obviously heard a few times it described but maybe we can just talk a little bit about it which is you have the sort of transactions and the blockchain happening over here but the proofs are potentially generated in a different setting Often by a validator-like entity um I know Alias built quite a lot about that around that yeah just just for some context ileo is like this hybrid POS pow

style system where the POS is just the block building and consensus and the POS stuff is uh the pow stuff is this like ZK mining right you just you do your chain off chain proofs um and and it's fascinating because right you're getting to see these two different ecosystem these infrastructure service provider ecosystems interact so just coincidentally right like when I was at stake fish our sister company was F2 pole which is like the largest Bitcoin mining pool at the time and so I was quite familiar with both of the infrastructure providers on both sides um and so now we're beginning to see because I'm I'm set helping set up the valedator and prover ecosystem in Elio we're beginning to see like the old like

all the all the infrastructure providers kind of take a take a look in and and what I think is the most fascinating um is that you're going to begin to see like these sort of hybrid organizations where you have both the validators take on like the ZK mining capabilities and the ZK miners take on the the the the validator capabilities but I mean I've seen both sides and I honestly think that it's much more difficult to take on the validated responsibilities so I see more validators taking on um you know the the plug-and-play ZK mining um stuff but yeah I I think it's uh it'll be interesting to see that the

ecosystems interact yeah I also Mina have something like that as well no um sorry I blanked for a second but no worries um yeah we have something called snog workers which are essentially like a prover infrastructure Network um they are providing the proofs for transactions right so if you send a transaction um to give a bit more of background um you send a transaction it's being proven using a snark broker and then recursively I guess merge together with other proofs and then you end up with one main proof sort of like um testifying the correctness of the entire chain so we we do have something called snark workers which is that network of approvers doing that proving and then there's something called the

snarket place very snarky names um where you can like they have like some some incentives right if you run a snark worker you you generate a proof and you get some yeah sounds good cool well I've reached the end of my questions but I do want to open the floor up for more questions if anyone has any um so we can oh sorry my bad [Music] uh hello um so uh at penumbra we uh do IBC permissionlessly to everywhere but of

course IBC is transparent and uh one of the things that we've been trying to think about is um how uh how do you manage to do private IBC um without uh having a problem of like if one of the counterparty chains misbehaves then you leak uh you you could potentially leak the you you could get contamination from a counterparty chain because ordinarily in IBC you have like circuit breakers but doing a circuit breaker with an encrypted uh or or zero knowledge IBC connection seems tricky I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about like what directions

those might go in yeah I feel like you're the expert maybe like maybe I I don't know if this is answering the question but like Alia has like this program registry that allows for differential privacy and if there is a need for a certain counterparty on another ecosystem that does require some selective information then might that can be that can be opened up but did that yeah so okay yeah maybe we should chat offline about that I'm curious yeah I mean you're certainly the expert on that um it's like an important question to actually talk about that's what I think

I was trying to Hint it yeah that Vision but I yeah I think maybe I don't know if we are the right people I feel like we I feel like we need to solve this problem um in some kind of way whether it's through through like homomorphic encryption or um or NPC or something so that we can like contain uh malicious counterparty chains in order to have like real private IBC that works this is a question actually I'm going to ask you this but like have you and this is maybe the the counter IBC argument would it be easier better do you have more flexibility if you actually do a bespoke bridge that uses one of these techniques is it is it harder to try to shoehorn it into an IBC setting I think it I think probably the thing that we were talking

about would not be IBC it would be another inter blockchain communication protocol like I but but I don't think it would look like the the protocol that already exists um so it is different yeah yeah and and then you have these problems of like if every chain has its own shielded pool with its own proving architecture then how do you uh how do you do proofs that like translate between like you know you're using Planck I'm using graph 16 or whatever like what what do you do I don't know flap a standard on it how to get a standard and then you have so then you have 16 standards instead I mean I think IBC as a standard for this

ecosystem is incredible given how early it was thought up and and I think like in the ZK space it's not just zkdsls it's proving systems it's like even like circuit-sized techniques within a proving system because you have things like Planck but then you have like variations on Planck um since then Halo 2 as well yeah yeah cool well any other questions oh maybe one more right there hey um this is a significantly more basic question um so like you mentioned about uh talking about kind of like Bitcoin and you talked about um Aerospace and kind

of just like how there's some like the ways that ZK is actually is quite useful for getting end customers outside of web3 I wonder like what do you think are the most like suitable end customers for ZK like and how do we approach those better so I think when you say customers I think the way we tend to talk about is like use cases so like one big one would be like id zki id zkml so this is where using a blockchain is sometimes really useful for immutability and consistency or sorry but I think that at least in the zkml case there's already examples where you're using ZK to prove that something is accurately

done within a modeling training and stuff like that like making sure that the data that was Fed was correct that doesn't really require a blockchain anywhere that's just using dkps so maybe yeah to speak on that when I mean zero knowledge proof technology started in the late 80s and it was sort of theoretical kind of under the radar people did try to use it for passwords I think in the early 2000s but what happened was like you melded it with blockchain all of a sudden all this like excitement maybe Financial incentive a lot of money poured in libraries got built mind share was grown and so it's grown like all the zkp systems that we know today a lot of them have were developed in the last five years the one the sort of the

common proving systems the snar the the plant the snarks actually the snarks the punk the novas um but um but yeah like what's funny is like it accelerated through blockchain and now because these systems are so good you can start to see them spilling out into these other realms sometimes tithes still back to a blockchain sometimes not but yeah I I I'm very excited to see where this is going like the topic of ZK outside of blockchain is like fascinating and not super well specced out yet the only one I mean the one I can point to right off the bat is this like machine learning like showing that the data was correct I

don't know if you guys have other examples learning like that stuff and and I I do think that blockchains uni or like the cryptocurrencies in their Associated blockchains particular use case here is that you have like the speculation and then the value increases and then you're able to get a lot more money into the r d that goes into developing more efficient and effective ZK Hardware because if the end goal is this like ZK Asic or where some people come like zpus or something like that um then you have like this what what you know like what was not possible in the 80s or the early 2000s we now have um more accessible and potentially even

commoditized to to serving whatever different use cases there are Bitcoin is I think the perfect example right we were able to just do it on like crappy Hardware obviously the difficulty went up but then we have very fine-tuned efficient and effective Hardware that exists now and not later because bitcoin's value went up and they're able to use that money to to support it so yeah just I very quickly um just to generalize that I think there's probably a lot of potential in the back two world when it comes to proof of model so for example CK secret learning that's a proof of model how do I know that the thing you're giving me is like truly

that awesome AI thing and you didn't do it yourself that would be awful or maybe things like how do I know that you're really offering me like the the best price on like a flight website comparison um how do you like how do I make sure that you're not artificially pushing the price for some reason potentially or maybe peer-to-peer interactions with users how do I know that you are who you are that could be chats potentially even games um if the technology is Advanced enough so yeah I think the like this the use cases have been expanding and the ways of using these things and I think there's a lot of Uncharted Territory so there's

actually a lot of space for creativity and trying to use them in certain cases seeing if it works I do want to just mention like some other cryptography that also is starting to be like or has been for a while but tied in with ZK so sometimes people use the term ZK as this blanket term for advanced cryptography so you have things like fully hormone or fully homomorphic encryption or multi-party computation um so you what we are seeing more and more is like these systems trying to incorporate pieces of those as well maybe combining them and there's going to be some very powerful interesting things that come out of it I think I think it's fair to predict that all right

cool thank you so much for staying for this morning session we're gonna break for lunch and thank you to our panelists for the what is it external privacy into Cosmos panel yeah thank you [Music] all right so just a note before you get up for lunch just one more thing