Powering Crypto UX with Shogun's Intents

Transcript

that's actually going to happen in the next five years it's actually funny because the biggest holder Bitcoin I believe is the US government still but anyways what happens Downstream of that how do solvers get involved or AI agents get involved to ultimately fulfill that order no we we actually didn't set out to build intense we found intense because we had an actual problems so for example salana is super illiquid uh more so than coins on ethereum we are going to see a massive shift towards non-speculative crypto use cases welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at tholl up.co ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode

after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners Redstone is def's modular Oracle supporting over 100 clients on over 50 chains offering 1,000 assets Redstone is the leader for Bitcoin staking and yield bearing assets they offer the most robust customizable price feeds available in any model join the Redstone exhibition [Music] today what's going on guys welcome back to the Rope Ohio what's going on this is going to be a fun conversation we've got Brandon we've got Rahul we've got rousi Robbie

GM guys Ohio gun fun movement the rollup modular day 2025 Brandon raho it's your first time on the show Welcome guys would love to uh have an introduction for our audience to you guys and um yeah why you guys are building in crypto so welcome on wait be before we begin did Andy docs did Andy docs Rahul is it top G is that no it's F I mean I'm pretty public like yeah I've got my name on the Twitter handle and everything so um yeah I guess I'll kick it off thank you for hosting us um yes my name is Rahul aka the top cheat um my background is in trading so prior to

Shogun I was a crypto hedge fund uh analyst researcher um and then yeah um decided to start Shogun with Brandon a couple years back um and yeah super stoked to be here yeah and my name is Brandon comr I'm one of the co-founders so handle more of the product and tecal side of Shogun and my background's primarily been in fintech and so I've been building trading systems uh for folks like TV Merit trade uh and for some of the largest tech companies in the world um like Amazon uh before coming into crypto full-time about five years ago now and so been building uh primarily in the cosmos ecosystem and moved over to ethereum and salana recently to start up Shogun and bring sort of this interchain

Vision to crypto as a whole awesome welcome to the show guys and rushi what are you doing here I have bags and Shogun that are far too small for what I do um as well as uh I'm generally interested in alternative VMS um have been a huge proponent of improving ux and the Shogun guys that built probably the best aggregator product uh to set a trade swap be degenerate um and happy user sweet yeah so I mean Robbie and I both got our start in def5 summer on chain actually I mean Robbie and I were trading on centralized exchanges in 2017

as freshman in University um but we were really active in 2020 to 2022 on chain which our accountant did not like um but we have ran through a lot of the trials and tribulations of the iterative tech improvements from the first yield Farm on a on polygon POS where you bridged over and farming that all the way to the you know dsds esds algo stables and it things got very very fun very quickly of course we we kind of saw the the ups and the Downs there but that really led us to then this next iteration of of defi where we are today um and so let's start with some of the The Core Concepts and the

user experiences as well as the user onboarding for onchain today and kind of understand where we where we sit so perhaps Brandon or Rahul either or both how do you guys feel about this iteration from defi summer 2020 to kind of where we are today and kind of like speedrun us through from your perspective on how defi has evolved from either the onboarding or the ux or just kind of the core Primitives perspective which has eventually LED you guys to build Shogun which I'm sure we'll talk quite a bit about yeah so just from a perspective of just how onchain ux has occurred since D5 summer because D5 summer is really what got me to make the leap for time into crypto anyways and so back then you saw a lot of EA accounts

um things were around a lot of manual activity basically the user owned the entire user Journey from the from the Inception of what they wanted to do basically saying I want to do xon chain all the way until the point of actually executing that so that the user basically everything was on them and so over time uh until the current iteration basically what you've seen is and I hate to use the word intense because it's kind of a lar term that is really overused at this point no one really knows what it means but with intents you basically separate the users uh intent what they want to do versus how do you actually execute that and so most of the actual improvements on ux have been uh have occurred in there now a lot of those Solutions have taken a very centralized approach um one of the

biggest criticisms I think uh for defi especially from my perspective of having you know H having been uh in defi for quite some time is the move towards a centralization a centralized approach and and just kind of a skewing a lot lot of our our original sort of core goals and you have things like telegram Bots that take people's keys and store them on a Google Cloud uh hard you know server somewhere and you have things kind of laring as decentralization when they're not there there's a lot of dishonesty um especially from the product line and so I think that's an as that's a negative aspect but on the good side of things the ux is is 10 times better I mean if you talk talk about the the single chain experience you look at salono versus what the old ethereum experience used to be in terms of gas

fees in terms of the actual account abstraction that you can do there I think there it just Leaps and Bounds ahead of where it used to be and ethereum itself has greatly improved too and so with Shogun what we're hoping is this is that next 10x leap where now you're saying okay well the the single chain experience has gotten really good over the the past few years now let's take that and apply it so that any chain can feel like that and the users don't even have to really not that we're abstracting the chains completely away but we're integrating them in a way that makes them a lot more approachable for folks so that they can trade on any chain basically very cool um one thing that that you said particularly is that intense is kind of a lar term which I think is funny in the

beginning of all of that that is what resonated with me because intense and chain abstraction are kind of in a really pecul spot because of agentic use cases of crypto and we don't need to get into the whole AI agents conversation but my current mental model of intense and chain abstraction is quickly shifting into a natural language model which I can Express a desire to achieve a certain outcome and then that language model understanding it synthesizing it and then actually going out and conducting it on my behalf um potentially using something like Shogun so my mental model for for this has really been kind of shaken up and I'm sure that yours has has also shifted over like the past six months or so yeah

absolutely I think you know we we actually didn't set out to build intense we found intense because we had an actual problem so we started out with um us being focused on onchain trading so Rahul I mean obviously his name's the top Jeet he didn't get that name for no reason um he's he's big onchain uh he's one of the you know original males whales of moodang and he hit all these massive trades and so that Spirit has always been there he's always been sort of this onchain sort of addict uh when it comes to that and myself too I mean I've been U making the leap from you know big Tech to to defi you don't really make that unless you actually believe in this type of this type of stuff and so for us we love trading on chain and the big issue was okay well we

like to trade on chain but we found you know when you go to a new chain there's always yield farming opportunities there's Alpa um there's a lot of things a lot of opportunities that come with putting in more work um that is associated with going to the different chains learning the new Bridges learning the new wallets and so we thought if we can make this process a little easier if we can basically say we as a company who have experience building in defi who have experience you know interacting with all these accounts if we can figure figure out how to make that process easier before the you before the actual Trader can then that's a that's a big gain for them they can basically have that ux without having to go through the process or learning anything new and so that's exactly where where Shogun sprang

from and so through that process it was like okay well we know what the end goal is we want to make it so that you can trade any token on any chain as if it was one one click should be pretty fast should feel like one chain well what's the technology that's going to get you there um we looked at sort of these alloy assets where you have sort of like you know a main asset and you have like these different sort of bridge versions that kind it kind of looks like an of uh or or some of the uh some of the layer zerotech we've looked at a couple different options and like managing liquidity across the board almost like an AG layer type deal we kind of funnel everything into one layer and ultimately what we found was you know all of those

Solutions had major cons the one solution that had a lot of benefit that you know gets lost in the liness like I mentioned was was intense and so being being able to separate that user intent being able to say okay well this is what the user wants and we have the freedom to execute in any path that's where we can do a lot of damage where a lot of folks I think a couple years ago they were trying to be intense companies for actually forming intents you look at like a Noma for example it's like how do you generalize the intent process to make an intent but that's the easy part filling out a user's intent like you said you could strap an NLP like like a chat GPT rapper and figure out how to do transactions pretty easily they're already doing it today intense is not

the is not the battle it's the execution of the intents and so that's where we do a lot of damage you mentioned agentic intents which is a big focus of ours um you can actually just strap out an an AI agent directly to this and be able to perform any on action onchain action and so uh we already have live Bots that are doing this where there's a plugin for Shogun in the Eliza framework on salana uh and there's actually Bots like Tales uh that are trading on Shogun right now and so we can't really talk about the execution of intent without talking about solvers and and so maybe you could talk us walk us through like okay you know you mentioned the easy part actually writing down maybe it's a natural language um what what exactly I want to get

accomplished that's the easy part that you mentioned we'll kind of skip over that once I submit that intention what happens Downstream of that how do solvers get involved or AI agents get involved to ultimately fulfill that order yeah exactly so the way we do it and it's a pretty centralized uh process in the beginning and obviously there's a decentralized decentralization process that occurs over the future but the first step is everyone basically participates in a Dutch auction so it's a pretty traditional setup for for an intent auction um you have basically the trade comes in at a little bit higher than what the user was looking for we try to basically maximize that through what we call tev Trader extractable value sort of like a memeified version of meev um

but geared more towards maximizing what the trader gets uh in terms of their output and then from there uh that auction process basically all of these solvers bid and it's a blind auction process it starts really at a very high price slowly whittles down through a Decay function and then once it reaches someone's Max bid that executes that person wins now the actual execution of the intent it almost looks like looks and feels like a short-term loan that's that's close to instantaneous and so what that means is a user basically sends a signed order to the offchain process uh the offchain order book from there once that competition is is actually won by solver that solver then deposits the tokens that they're looking for on the destination chain at that

same time a validator is basically looking at all of these different smart contracts sees that event happening cross references that with the actual trade sees that it's successful and then lets those funds go on the source chain and so ultimately what's happening is that short-term loan of you know something quick on the destination chain and then the users funds are eventually released to the solver so that they can they can balance their books and and do you guys use any kind of resource locks or state locks in order to make sure that the funds don't get double spent while that short-term loan is being issued on the destination chain yeah exactly it's a pretty standard model I mean I think if you look at most intent Centric protocols they this is tends tends to be like sort of the classic way

of doing it we don't try to get too fancy with this our our major sort of value ad here that we're looking for is breadth of of coverage um and a different thing that we try to do as well is there's really two levels of the stack there's the intent auctions themselves and then there's the within the solvers they're all basically running um Bas the aggregation Services of things like Jupiter and debridge and across and so we get the best of both worlds where if we can solve it at at a faster speed we'll execute it but if we can't say it's an an evm Network that we don't need to solve AC cross already does that we aggregate that into this into the uh into the API as well one last thing on that is like the extensibility like the long tail right of assets and chains

you guys are solving that yourself right and so across maybe you know these major solvers that have deeper liquidity are solving it on the the more prominent routes but when it comes to the longer tale of assets you guys are picking up the slack yeah exactly so what the philosophy was was you know there's two there there's sort of a trade-off that happens here you kind to go for for maximum support but you're going to have large costs that don't necessarily align with what the profits you're going to be making are there and so there's that aspect of like supporting like things like an L3 like say Z or some of the arbitrum l3s uh that are out there there's not that much value flowing through them and so if you try to do everything yourself you're you're going

to get into a situation where you're spending resources on something that someone else has already built you can just use that and so that's where we try to pick our battles I mean having Rahul sort of his lens of like knowing what people are trading on on chain and and really dialing in on those networks that's what that's what we're focused on and so yeah if if we can build it better we we build it ourselves um or if we can if it doesn't exist like with some of the stuff that we're doing in the move ecosystem we obviously build it ourselves but if it exists currently and and it performs up to our slas we just use the the existing solution anything to add there rul no I was going to say like um Brandon hit all the points so especially

from my perspective as a Trader um I mean like the biggest pain points are uh and this is more relevant today than it has been in any cycle is just the ultra fast rotation um and now it's like you got like these daily Runners and like you know there's a few ecosystems like bass salana um hopefully move be in the future um hyper liquid right um so like you always have to be online or you miss like some big pump right um and like before you know especially in 2021 you you have you're fumbling around like spinning up wallets figuring out how to bridge uh surprisingly there has hasn't been any Bridge hacks so I think like you know maybe that's where the solvers have really um with the social pressure

of not hacking um has come into play here but um but yeah like that's the biggest Improvement um that we try to aim for is just that seamless trading experience and like if you see my Twitter I'm and now I'm like posting my trades using our first product which is a telegram app and then we got the web app and mobile app coming out pretty soon this guy top Jeet is such a Trader look at the room he's in he's got the exercise bike and the bed and that's it you don't ever have to go anywhere yeah um yeah I um I had a pretty insane run in Q4 but unfortunately what' you hit uh so I I hit a lot I hit like you know the

Catholic mascot luch I had like 3% so that went from like I had like 10 mil in that for it was for like 10 days um and then obviously moodang I had like four or five % um yeah skib it didn't run that high but still it went to like 80 mil I had like 4 five% I I just I've hit so like I I can't remember but I remember my my family was like you should start counting how much you have and at one point it was like 35 mil um and yeah but since Trump and Melania and all that like onchain has just taken such a beating um because now there's no repercussions and like everybody and anybody's launching a coin so yeah shifted but yep por no coin just got

smashed so I think one thing that's uh particularly interesting is the way that the mark that the market mechanics are operating now and then how this affects your guys products View and rushi feel free to jump in here as well but I think that there's a bit of a of a of a Mis A Mis uh there's an inefficient Dynamic right now where if you're the earliest to a project you get the most upside if you just have a random selection with some sort of like accuracy based on like getting a good tip or getting a good idea or it being a runner whereas like in the actual stock market in actual markets what is what what is rewarded is value over time it's picking the winners based on fundamentals it's

it's creating these long-term games these long-term Bets with projects or companies that are I guess like you know just changing the world basically or impacting the world whereas right now on chain it's like if you can be the first one to buy Porto coin as soon as you see the tweet you are in such a better spot than the next people over the next hour two hours and four hours and that Dynamic is just inefficient and like not the way that markets really work it's not sustainable for sure it is not sustainable like all all memes have kind of died off after milania and like they por no coin that had like a rise for day and like I think what you're seeing is like cabal coins like we all know who like the $50 buy like a $100 buy is as soon as it opens tur into a million

dollars like I think that turns off a lot of people but ultimately the fair launch space is net positive I think like memes have done like you know good stuff for awareness and we continue to do St but need better mechanisms to prevent snipers and stuff but I think we're in touch on that yeah and uh naturally I think like um it's it's speedrunning um value extraction and I think like the participants will get smarter um and realize that okay like this is not sustainable and like we'd rather start flying in quality like so like for example hyper liquid you know is uh I see a lot of Traders now rotating into that and they think that okay well this lease is generating a lot of Revenue they're doing BuyBacks and I

may not do a 1020 X but I or sorry I may not do 100x but I could do like a 51x right um so I think this the market is naturally getting smarter um and and yeah and like even so there's like pump fund competitors that give back to the ecosystem like gof funds Meme and I'm not Shilling this I don't have any back in it there's been plenty of competitors um but yeah I think like you're going to see new models where for example um you know like the dev can make money off of LP fees rather than him buying and sniping and dumping um or the team you know not like the team just kind of extracts the fees for themselves and like sells whatever the base layer asset um or there could be like a pump fund

which I think is coming where the creator has like a default like sort of a vesting schedule so like founder like you know we have the jelly jelly and the vine coin right maybe there's um an iteration where Founders launch and it's like the vesting is set and um then you can it's like it's more implicit trust right in the token you're buying um so yeah I think you should start to see some of those um iterations to address the flaws in the current broken system yep I think that I think that's uh particularly important for uh new ecosystems as well I mean we have rushi here obviously you guys are quite close to Bara what you don't want in the beginning of your ecosystem is basically

a bunch of kind of malicious snipers and devs spinning up memes and trying to just rinse retail over and over and over again it's it's very extractive and kind of turns people off um and so when we're thinking about that from salon's perspective it just feels fatigued it just feels like we've done the iteration like I'm not saying that salon's meme cycle is like coming to End by any means but it's just that like people are getting smarter and design mechanisms are changing and so yeah I mean even even just using a telegram bot versus having to use a ledger and plug it in is just a huge Alpha over the last you know three three months just because of how easy it is to spin up on your phone and

and just kind of get in and out and so yeah I think that market Dynamic changes and I think that we we move towards more of these like longer term thought out meme coins in a way uh but also I think there's also a return to fundamentals and that entire idea is still taking its place slowly where there's a lot of changes in the market happening and even prominent VCS themselves like H are putting out new tokenomics models different than the standard vesting models and so there's a broad change here that is happening and mad on our podcast with him said he said that mem coins are the purification of crypto and while it may not seem like

that from the outside that there is certainly that effect happening and rousi you kind of just hit on that but any closing thoughts on this Loop here guys and then we'll kind of jump back into some of the technicals and what you guys are actually building yeah I mean I think the best thing the staking reward stuff has been controversial like we saw the bear lunch people are upset about uh bear staking module I think like the cosmos prent like T with thinking rewards and like invest lock token s was never conducive and kind of rug green some capacity and for some reason like this people associate to with future Cosmos chain launches um for moving itself investors can't St lock tokens team can't St lock tokens I think like that's the whole point investing to not

be able to get tokens in a month or two months because often time times what happens is when you have lock tokens taking investors such a cash at their position in three months um and you see that in CHS um and especially when there's no liquidity no buy pressure like the charts take a beating um and the retail gets dumped on and then um so I think like that's those mechanics have been avoided even initia like an they weren't doing staking and stuff so um across the board I I anticipate that practice going away yeah I just think it's going to be harder for VCS and just early stage investors of any sort to make as much gains as they have over the last seven

years it's like what's going to be required is you pick the the right teams I think after this cycle I think this cycle we still kind of have the I mean we're sitting here and uh we've got a chain with no with no chain and a token so I mean like things are still happening for this cycle but I think it very quickly like it becomes a game of picking the right projects over two to two to seven year time frame really instead of like a three month to twoyear time frame or three month to threee time frame and that there's will be a lot of winners and but there will also be I think after this cycle especially we already seen this from 2017 but the emergence of these kind of Dino chains and Dino coins will really start to show uh similar to kind of 2000 and

2001 think um like the holder base or I guess holder base is wrong term but the participants of this cycle uh it seems like their attention span has gotten like a lot shorter uh and it's like the market has been trained to just dump and like you know not believe in something as according as that sounds but yeah I totally align with Murad and you just mentioned him uh I think his philosophy is spot on um and I think eventually uh those that stay in the space are going to come back to that where it's like you know like the short-term gains or the instantaneous gains are no longer sustainable and we actually do need to believe in something we do need to form a community and you know and align with a vision for you know multiple years um

so yeah I think obviously movement movement may not have a chain but they've got an like a pretty good Community um and like you know a firm set of Believers so we definitely uh look up to rushi in that regard yeah I think that's like it's very important right it's it's it's what matters and I think we're like the market is getting there already like it's like it's getting to be like people are tired like I mean it's just like just believe in something man um and just get the directional idea correct over the next five years and you'll be fine don't like there's like sure there's there's rotations but okay zooming out um to the the idea of of Shogun uh with movement and bar chain kind of what's happening

there from the technical side Brandon your experience been building in different execution environments for Shogun yeah so I actually just released the uh tweet announcing we're live on bar chain and so yeah um it's it's tough building on different VMS not not going to lie to you um there's not you know part of our pitch back in like March of last year was if you look at the top 10 of projects on salana for example by tvl you're going to see maybe Lidos in there um if that and so it's not a lot of folks that are taking like an evm based application porting it over to salana easily and then just porting that over to move and porting that over to so you

get into Cosmos and you want to do like I mean no one really wants to go to Cosmos right but like say you wanted to do km wasm um that's a whole another thing with you know rest space contracts and stuff like that and so having the ability to kind of bounce back and for and ton Ton's a great one uh a SE like language there that's kind of not like anything in crypto so you think about all those different ecosystems and a lot of people falter um when they're trying to just Port something over from say one to the other but if you start with like first principles and you design with that interoperability in mind uh which was something that we had to learn a lot about through the process but if you design with those things in mind I think it's a lot EAS easier and so Shogun as a

base we we're the entire product is designed to work on these different ecosystems so that we can just basically standardize and and create adapters where we need them versus like creating a whole new piece of software and so I think that's an advantage that we have over others our ability to also just incorporate other things into our our aggregation other Solutions you talked about the longtail earlier obviously if you're trying to get every single longtail asset you're going to waste a lot of resources there but if you can pick up an API that has say this obscure du and that and another one has another one and if you can bring them all together I think um you you get the the sort of pieces of the parts add up to more than the whole and so that's exactly the the the strategy of what

we're trying to do and building uh on be chain specifically I think it's been just an overall great experience I mean obviously the first test net wasn't wasn't all that um but the second test net as well as the main launch I mean no one's talking about bar chain not working properly everyone's talking about it working maybe working a little bit too easily to dump their era on Kodiak or something like that but no one's saying that they can't sell um so that that's a big uh thing the main net works the te the the actual Tech works so as a builder you can't really ask for more than that um I've been on some chains that do not work and so that's that's kind of table stakes and then the the community has been great too I mean

just having the ability to have you know x amount of users to test your software who actually just really care about um crypto as a whole and they don't I mean a lot of them didn't even get aird drops if you're if you kind of look at the comments too so these guys are really rabid they're they're borderline mental and they and they love Defi and so having those as testers is never a Bad Thing definitely um when you're thinking about this this launch onto movement or or your intense platform on onu or on on on aptose which of these is the is the is the Great greatest zero to one for user experience or for like the core problem that you guys are trying to

solve like is there one of your of your Suite of ideas that you're like okay this is what we are most excited about because XYZ and like like what is that and and what what's the Breakthrough there from the technical perspective that wasn't previously possible before yeah so I think making everything feel like one chain is probably the biggest breakthrough and we try to keep it simple we don't like to go too deep into like you know here's X Tech Innovation that changes one little thing and this is going to be the game changer the the goal is the the end goal is trading any token on any chain and so that's the that's the big competitive advantage that's like the the north star that we're all going towards anything any technical Innovation from there is is

just to add to that goal and so I think intent Centric design for the move ecosystem is going to be pretty cool uh being able to bridge back and forth and do swaps between like say s and movement uh with like the evm and salanas of the world and and bar chains and other l1s within a couple seconds that's going to be pretty cool um think about the unlocks there I mean I don't even know what wallet you would use onui and I'm building on it and so there's an example there of like you know what do you expect the average user to be able to do uh in order to get to the ecosystem so I think that's that's probably the biggest Z to one right now is what we're doing with the interconnectivity of it all uh being able to one click into that that's

a big change you don't see that in a lot of places and if you do it's typically pretty a pretty Jerry rig solution um but having a standardized set of you know being able to get from any token on any chain that's that's the big innovation the speed on movement is going to be interesting uh I think to a lot of folks too um move has some interesting aspects to it that allow like formal verification and things like that that allow you to go a little bit faster in some cases than than with other chains and so we'll we'll have some case studies where we detail some of the advantages too building on all these things you kind of get to see an an inside look that a lot of folks don't have okay um Brandon to to be very very very straightforward uh that may have

been compelling enough to bring people over but like if I'm a phantom user and I'm really really stuck on Phantom and Rabbi and I just don't care to change my habits at all like are you optimizing for for people like that or are you optimizing for somebody who is like you know what I'm either new to crypto or I came in and looking for my home and like how are you thinking about those two sectors because frankly like I've just been such a phantom and rabbit user that it's just like even downloading something on telegram I'm just kind of like H or trying a new wallet I'm like does it have Ledger compatibility because if not I'm not touching you know it's just so it's like it's these constant iterations that from the user side that I've just been kind of like very sticky with those two places so how

do you think about that kind of dynamic and also you know maybe it's not for me maybe it is for new users um and Ru would love to hear kind of your thoughts from the user perspective too yeah just to take a stab at at first so you're right like folks are going to be entrenched into the places that they trade currently so Phantom Rabbi whatever the case may be um but the opt so what we're trying to optimize for here is obviously the folks that are trading currently and so we do have an integration with Phantom coming out um metamask all of the traditional wallets that you use as well um obviously we can do a lot more with our smart accounts it's basically how do you get folks from their existing Solutions into what we're doing um and so there's going to be a TR

there's going to be an education aspect to that and so you're going to be able to use Shogun directly through Photon um sorry directly through Phantom and directly through metamask and all the wallets that you already talked about so that is coming uh regardless and then Shogun as an account system or or with the complete abstraction aspect that's going to be something that really welcomes users and so it's kind of a two-pronged approach basically for the existing user base you can have the phandom and the metamask Integrations but for everyone else they're going to be able to have this cohesive this cohesive account experience where everything's already put into one and they don't necessarily have to even learn those new wallets and so having a solution that really fits the new users that are coming on through the memes and through through some of the innovations

that we see today through salon and some of those things but also having the functionality that uh core defi users can use today could break down like the different segments of users within crypto um so for example with telegram Bots right uh people are used to like whatever Trojan and banana um and in their cross instance you you have to manually download different versions of the bot like there's one for Salon there's one for ethereum uh for us like Brandon mentioned we kind of have like this Universal account or aggregated UI and so I can make cross chain slots just within that window um and that's like a 10x Improvement um and yeah and like those power users on chain they're familiar with like a telegram UI and so

I think right now we we probably have the best one in the space um and then like Brandon mentioned uh once we get the web app um that's going to be you know similar to Photon and so that's where we'll have to compete correct me if I'm wrong Mr bef for no no you're you're doing great top jeep rousi from from your perspective like you know these guys are going to be deploying to movement as well as other networks um H how do you think you know an intent based solution that is primed for for quick routes could could kind of help bolster the entire network effect of the of the entire ecosystem like do you guys have really strong interop between some of the apps that are on the

Eco in in the ecosystem now if not what does like that fast and drop look like what does it mean yeah I mean we have like yield aggregators like Mosaic that um plugged in directly to all the dexes uh we have like letting protocols Etc So within the chain itself I'd say it's a pretty like you know solid system that connects it to each other you have L zero Wormhole etc for bridging but I think the main play here is like obviously our users and people are using crypto like are active on multiple chains you have like people on you know base L like you know even like cardano maybe so how do you combine all the capital acrosses different chains so I think there's there's still a missing the market for allinone platform that I can just deposit on base swap me coins

and mo movement go LP Nea and like dump my tokens on ethereum right like that kind of flow doesn't exist today you normally people go exchanges right now like buying coin base and stuff um and like I think infinex offic is working on something similar with like their product as well um so if like Shogun can be essentially the multi-chain Jupiter be Jupiter on every chain and then combine that with one ux you have like a pretty transformative platform that exchanges infes walls can all integrate and like be the middleware that you need yeah yeah because I you know a lot of this is is kind of connectivity amongst the apps that we already have I mean there's maybe a conversation to be had

around New Primitives that could pop up once we have more unified ecosystem maybe there's some thought being you know given to that um and so if there is you know basically you know we started out by talking about how you know the current meta is unsustainable like the current met around meme coins is dumping people come in but if they're not the first one to see the Tweet right they're in a improper position and then you know this is not a a market architecture that is conducive to new entrance because they come in what do they do they get dumped on immediately because they bought you know two hours after the thing launch rather than a minute after the thing launched they W they they weren't in a winning position to begin

with so basically I'm I'm thinking like how do we solve that and kind of build to where we're going next like how do we skate to where the puck is going right what is going to what is the new meta the New Meme coin Market Evolution that comes after this current unsustainable one top cheap maybe you could you could just even if it's just speculation and you're kind of just thinking about thinking out loud as to like how you think we transform the current market structure from an unsustainable one into a more sustainable one what do you think that transition looks like imagine if the world's GDP moved onchain guys say GM to safet the newest protocol by safe isn't a blockchain and it's not

a new layer 2 it's a transaction processing Network built to send money anywhere and swap anything on thousands of layer twos from a single Universal balance in sub 500 milliseconds it's fast it's smooth and it's simple and it's built with safe multisig level security in mind safet unlocks smart accounts across multiple chains allowing users to supercharge security scalability and speed so get started today at n.s. Global and remember to follow at safe onx uh I I okay so I think um fundamentally the psychology of the investor participant like the investor

base has to change um and I think it's going to change naturally as like we've been talking about how the current meta is unsustainable and like 99% of people lose their money and like 1% win um and I think like in general like the space we've just been spoiled with quick gains um but you know if you talk to um you know people in trifi where it's like oh you can get a 20 30% yield uh through some complex yield farming strategies that's pretty good um and so so yeah I think it's just a matter of time until more sophisticated patient investors come in the space and they appreciate whatever the Open Access you know permissionless nature of of um of our industry um and then yeah and then like

you know I think uh like other industry participants also uh like Sexes market makers they have a hand in it as well um so you know if you're a tier one sex like don't go crazy with listing you know absolute dog [ __ ] um but that's not something us Builders can control um and then and then yeah and then like the so for example salana is super IL liquid uh more so than coins on ethereum and that's something that I did not take into account when I whatever ran up the scoreboard in Q4 um it's like the the cascading of the sell pressure makes the price go way like goes down way faster um so I think um there's got to be

improvements in like onchain liquidity and like you know we had proof of like uh protocol and liquidity last cycle sure you know some sort of pump fun mechanism where it's like uh you know I never advocate for sell tax but that's what worked on ethereum is like sometimes when you sell a token the tax gets added to the lp and it adds liquidity uh I don't think that exists on any salana tokens so um so yeah maybe bringing some of that back can help but overall I think like this the psychology of the investor base which is just going to naturally mold through hard times they're going to learn to be more patient yeah I also have a question for you about the culture of different chains that you've interacted on um like what is the core culture difference for

speculators uh from salana to ethereum what's the differences that you've observed yet yeah yeah so that's part of why I know murad's list like not all of it has done well but there's a few coins that I've done well and I think relatively speaking it's drawn down less than any sh like for example mudang went from or chill guy went from like 7 800 mil to like 35 mil like or you know like basically like I was joking that Bowen was one of the worst crashes in any asset class history like ever uh I was talking to some like tax account and then I didn't know that that was going to happen in my bags a few months later um but yeah so I think um the older class of 21

2017 um they you know they were able to hold things for months on in and enjoy steady games uh and so that's the whole thing with like mads like SPX and you know whatever Apu um like that holder base when he made that list that was catering to like the older uh 2021 2017 class and they they understand that like you have to form a community you have to form a cult so to speak um so that's a culture in ethereum and with the ethereum whales which is still prevalent I think that's why artum still has all this liquidity it's like all this old defi money right U and they're kind of just like hungry to uh have that meta come back again or you capitulate and

you go in the salon casino and get your ass kicked um you know and I've done that too I've I've played in metas I have no Edge in and just get wiped but yeah so that's the ethereum um sort of a ecosystem culture is you can uh hold on to something for months and enjoy steady gains um they they have the ability to believe in something more than participants on salana uh and so yeah the salana culture because transactions are cheap because anybody can launch a token um you know it just makes it easy for or uh it just speedruns the value extraction as sophisticated actors are turning out thousands of coins a day um and yeah because transactions are cheap you also

have these Zoomers and like just a younger demographic who think that oh I turned $100 into $1,000 you know I just made like my monthly salary or something or whatever my monthly allowance um but for like a whale on ethereum or even just like not a whale but average participant from the like 2021 days that that doesn't really move the needle um so yeah it's more what they call GD uh salana it still it still has that reputation in that culture um which has been kind of frustrating so yeah do you think that uh this cycle salana has kind of eclipse that store a value monetary premium conversation like ethereum did as a result of defi in 2020

in 2011 it um so your question is is it a uh is it a good story like when you sell your meme coins to salana do you feel like that's your Forever bag or do you feel still feel like maybe you should go back the other way no no no um so if you look at the market cap of salana it's like almost 2x but the price of the Soul token um it I think it may have surpassed its alltime high but barely right so that means there's a lot of inflation um so I don't and I know that the foundation and Salon a core team saying they're working on the inflation problem but I don't think it's a good store store value and also like you have

teams that like the pick and shovels like pump fund you know there they broadcast like they've taken all these fees in salana and they've moveed moved it onto a sex um and I don't want to speculate thinking that they're selling but I mean that does broadcast that you're doing something it's probably selling right um so when you have like leaders of the ecosystem doing that it also signals to the rest of us that maybe this is not the asset to hold um so yeah and I've I've talked to other Traders and like the ones that are really in the casino um they tend to either so they'll cash out in usdc um and they get into this habit of wiring a lot to the bank and then they'll keep like um some like their their dry powder is in usdc it's not in salana U so

basically they want to try to play that same game of hitting a 1050x or whatever um and then you know if they hit that they'll cash out uh into usdc why are to the bank and then keep some dry powder for the next plate um for but yeah the consensus seems to be that people don't want to hold salon and then you also got these unlocks coming which we'll see how the market absorbs that um maybe with like the inflation issue if if the salana team does work on it and it's reduced and you have like a sole ETF um perhaps it can get to a point where you know you have the narrative with ethereum where it's like ultrasound money which I mean ethereum's price hasn't done that great but um but yeah I could see a narrative forming in the

future where it is a like kman says non Sovereign form of money um but for now that's not the case and like you can just tell with the market cap chart and the salana price chart there's a lot of inflation makes sense yeah I was curious because I think that well we we had a pretty good conversation with this with tun and John chbo about this um where also the coll Al value of salana itself is not nearly as good asum because you can just stake your soul and validator and earn 8% and you don't need to deploy it in defi strategies to earn and so that really reduces the amount of monetary velocity in a given system which then

reduces the overall amount of basically speculation and you know activity which drives value drives fees you know it's funny you say that um I feel like for the last year no one's even talking about I know there's like what like you know GTO soul I guess could be sort of that like you know LST that you can use in defy and stuff but I don't know one single person that's using any sort of money market or any yield farming in in salana now it's like you yeah there's a token with high volume and let me go on Meteora and buy this LP and like earn fees that way but yeah dony tweeted about that the other day he got a lot of push back for it but he was like basically like Salon defi doesn't really exist

like there's and then Cino quotes TW and was like well hello or something it was like it was that's a great observation though because that is it ties in just directly to the the psychology and culture on Solana versus ethereum you don't have any like any semblance of patience on Solana and for defi to work it it takes some element of patience yeah yeah 100% um yeah it's it's the ultimate casino right now that's how it's positioned it's not really for yield farming or you know complex def5 strategies maybe maybe it'll change but

yeah right now it's brand new anything to add there Brandon or rushi no I was just I was just gonna ask the top G what is the bar chain trenches culture like um well given that we just uh you know launched our ation on the podcast I'm going to play around with it more after um but I think uh you know it's it's the jury is still out it's yet to be determined uh I think a lot of the exciting stuff that's going to come on bar isn't in existence yet so uh I'm pretty optimistic once all that's out like proof of you know proof of liquidity and like exponents and there's plenty of exciting um well so that's the thing with Bara the background like the

core contributors they like Jack and Sammy um who was the founder of redacted they're all like very good at def5 mechanics and they came from that 2021 cycle where they've like designed own Ponzi and so so yeah I think there is an untapped Market of like that older class that's looking to um looking for that intellectual stimulation in Defi and I think like that's where Bara can ultimately win out I'm not sure if it's going to be in the meme space because I think Salon has already got that and it's pretty entrenched but I think like uh the be defi ecosystem system once it's really blooming um I think it'll tap into that like the Tetra no of the world potentially if they can strike a deal with them but yeah but that kind of

like profile is is what they're probably going to win out I agree it feels like that user base has been uh very dormant on Shane it's basically ended up being just toss your Ethan a and borrow Stables against it just to live on and wait you know and I think that's what a lot of the big eth whales have done sense 100% um okay guys so our community is going to want to know how to get involved um what's the alpha uh what what is some asymmetrical information ideas thoughts that hypothetically could or could not be true uh and could also come from rushi um on how to get how to best get involved with Shogun what what

is the application landscape what what can we do today uh what can we do tomorrow and how can we set ourselves up to be a strong part of the Shogun community in the future yeah so first things first get trading so there's a trading bot um on telegram that you can sign up for as well as the web app just was released at gun. fund so if you go to gun. fund you can set up a a actual wallet within a couple clicks your face ID is essentially your seed phrase and then from there you can just get to trading and so this is the easiest way to trade um going to and from any chain and also in int chain transactions too I'm using it for all my salana trades and you know it's the easiest way if you're if you're

really looking at bar chain and you're like okay well that's something that I want to be a part of I want to check out some of these assets this is one of the easiest ways to get into that ecosystem oneclick trades any from any meme on salana any meme on any evm pretty much uh directly into it and then we'll be adding a lot of network support from there if you're not interested in Bara um or if you're a little upset at Bara it's also the easiest way to dump your bar and go to another ecosystem and so we hope either way you'll use the product um the alpha so there is something I I've heard of something called the gun list I can't confirm or deny if that's true but if there were a gun list I would get the trading and um really trying to get my numbers up in

terms of the point system we're going to be dropping and so Alpha really starts later this week uh we've got a referral program coming out we've got a points program coming out and it's going to be super gamified and and it's going to affect a lot of folks uh especially within some of the ecosystems that we launching and so just stay tuned for that you'll see a lot of announcements for that and that's primarily how you're going to be able to get involved um in terms of any Alpha awesome and uh ra Rahul what's the what's the best strategy to try on gun do fund this next couple weeks to months on chain how can I best take my portfolio of you know 1K 10K or 100K and try try my best to not nuke it to zero because I have a good I

have a good time doing that on Channel on on salana but going up the last couple weeks that's been somewhat difficult yeah yeah so I I do think there's going to be a flight to Quality so um like like Murad said find those cult coins uh I talked about this in a different pod but there are some OG sex memes like like Bon is pretty beat up uh look if you have 10K uh rather than try to go and and find new pairs on salana and like Nuke it to zero um you could get a clean 5x in two months with something like Bon especially because now there speculation of a do gtf uh Bon is like on Robin Hood obviously it's on chain on salana as well but it has the best distribution um and so so yeah that's one thing or if let's say like

Baron Trump finally decides to launch his token and you got Stables on let's say be chain and you're like [ __ ] it's on salana I really need to swap This and like keep summon the the Shogun telegram app and you can just with one click you know fomo into Baron's coin hopefully it's the right one it's not a rug but yeah there's like that barbell approach where I almost treat like the OG memes as like major assets like Doge and and you know Bon those aren't going to go to zero if anything they'll slow grind up um and then there's like sure sh Runners flavors of the month um like we've had like moodang in September October um you know the AI like fcoin goat in later months and then like we have Trump in January so whatever that is in February

um you know you could potentially cash that and the nice thing with us is like you don't you know wherever your dry powder is you can easily um swap it over to whatever chain that that launches and it's most likely going to be salana it's funny when you say flight to Quality I start thinking about like the major crypto coins and then you start talking about more memes um so yeah like you're a boomer Andy classic classic 2017 talk um yeah look it's also macro dependent right U I think we're going to get r cuts um in March or not yeah I think there's going to be hints at um quantitative using um so I think like

for risk on assets it's going to get favorable um and once that like switch is turned on it it should be easier and I just look at something like Bon or Doge as a leveraged you know uh way to play something like Bitcoin or salana respectively maybe we ask our resident fed any any macro thoughts rushi um well I think that the new Administration is leading levels H hard in crypto um whether it's like actual purchases of tokens implementations of tokens or actually just using defy um so I think we'll see like next six to 12 months uh a lot of defi usage and actual like blockchain usage so I say this I

like to say this crypto and there blockchain crypto is like the Bitcoin Reserve The Ether Reserve something like that like that is on the radar but then there's also blockchain usage which is like getting you know branes of the government to tokenize to have transparent spending and like that's more of a longterm like here's why Bitcoins hit a million dollars at some point right um so I think like there's be ups and downs uh like Market's probably [ __ ] right now will continue to be [ __ ] for a while but I would say like March April May in March bounces back and then um all survived and uh rousi you you you recently got some Flack for a tweet saying that we need to Pander towards the politicians could you please explain

that to the libertarian [ __ ] you government crypto audience look I I'm as [ __ ] you government as the next person I think again this blockchain is crypto the crypto like the Bitcoin the BTC and eth tickers and the token Supply should always be free Supply no one shown Bitcoin it's actually funny because the biggest hold of Bitcoin I believe is the US government still but anyways um the ultimately the spe spirits of Satoshi and whatnot is always open source be free spirit my point was on the blockchain technology if we want um like the department the Doge division to actually use one of our blockchains tokenize have the ability to have transparent spending there's actually a

lot of use cases that I'm like going to DC Thursday and talking about it as well for example like we're looking to us Aid right now right and there's a lot of spending that happens for usaid that God knows what even the Ukrainian president was like yeah people said we got 150 billion but we only got 5050 billion where the rest of the 100 billion go um so imagine like the United States government send that e ether scan e e payment of hundred billion dollars and you be like 10 billion goes to food 10 billion goes to shelter 10 billion goes to like uh like I don't know like clothes it's funny because like when the earthquakes happen in Turkey I think it's like onethird of all uh kind of remittances and payments to help the the disaster relief was in crypto because if you send it directly to the government

they're going to seize it same thing with in Yemen when the houthi rebels bounced back and were taking over the government the majority of the aid relief was encrypt out directly because the houthi government was taking over all Bank to bag wires so like look I don't really care about the anons that come after me um like if you're trying to build something this non- grifty and be around for 10 years I think that getting blockchains implemented in governments and you know big institutions important crypto itself should be free Spar Bitcoin ethereum should always be free SP but like I don't understand why you can't have both why don't you why don't we want more users why don't we want you government is running our Technologies it shouldn't be like they own the Bitcoin protocol they own the ethereum protocol they own the movement protocol that'll never

happen um but it'll be like Snapchat like the government doesn't own Snapchat but obviously has regulations they use Microsoft but they own Microsoft right so like like ultimately I don't really care yeah no I mean look there is the the the ETFs are in particular are a very interesting Paradox though because on one hand we we appreciate the ability to have new entrance buying their fair share of the networks that we all own especially the younger people the older mom and pop participating institutions but on the other hand what what we're effectively doing is just piling more supply of these networks into black rock into um grce kale into these large kind of Institutions so kind of a paradox

there happening one two is uh some people don't like Trump at all like at all so you talk about positive things about working with government and they associate it with Trump and there's not a good feeling there um and in crypto people can be liberal uh terms of like left leaning again it's not about politics like I actually don't comment on politics but there's one side of the government that SEC notices for the unit swap in open SE and put the founders T cash and silk in jail for the last 10 years and you have one that is speaking it onto Summit and talking about most bullish things like stable coins reserves and like you know like not sending me to jail so like as a crypto

founder that have the top token a coin market cap like it's something that we think about is like I live in New York any moment they could knock my door and take me down I'd rather be with the administration that you know would buy my bags and not send me to jail you know rushi for uh for Elon to put the treasury on chain which chain do you think is in the best position to uh to handle that accounting there's this a move based blockchain that's really cool that's not live yet but gets a lot of heat um I think they're pretty sick guys but in reality I think it' probably be ethereum to start a beta test um and eventually a permission private blockchain is what I anticipate permission private blockchain treasury issues bonds can I isue those auctions

yep I anticipate like a very similar based model I don't know if caliz sequencer L2 is probably the best maybe it's like some kind of side chain that has it's like two Valor sets that you know two valers run by ethereum government with bridge to ethereum uh but yeah I I definitely think it'll be the etheric system to start off with and then expand beyond that potentially some form of governance where we can vote on how we allocate some of those treasuries yeah I mean that's that's just really egalitarian right I I don't know if that's in the short term the easiest way I say this is like when we do foreign aid we should use crypto we shouldn't use like bank-to-bank payments that's the number one like thing that I'm trying to push for right now is like when we do send money to Ukraine can we

send on ether scan and that's like let the public know like here's where the money's going CU right now like there's $100 billion doar that went to Ukraine that's on accounted for that's like today what I'm trying to do like people came after me for no reason like I'm trying to like keep this transparent spending which is why blockchain this is why we built imagine if on like a big CNN news headline Fox news headline for some sort of foreign payment in or out it was maybe it doesn't need to be public for all but like there was some sort of way that that we could have like okay this has has been verified by X Y and Z parties who have opposing political views are of opposing races or opposing social economic statuses or something and this has been approved by

three or five separate almost like a multisig of people that got their eyes on it and then we're able to tell the general public with some sort of I don't know lot ways we can improve the transparency really think about you can have like what if each department of the government run a node and you have 10 nodes for this blockchain and to reach consensus you need six of these nodes to that's it it's really really cool you start thinking about how like you can put consensus algorithms for governments and like uh you can reach Quorum for a senate via blockchain right there's a lot of these things are like [ __ ] like why we built blockchains for the last 10 years you know and is this kind of the subject of your your trip to DC is this kind of like what you're talking about or you

get yeah those conversations bit like I got slack us but this is like what I'm excited for like I'm not in the space to like you know like launch more M coin like I don't want to be in the casino I can do that and like probably retire in a few years but like if we're trying to like actually get technology adopted I'm willing to like like be in a chopping block but like directionally this is where I want to see the country evolved where we do have you know transparent spending we have for foreign leak is actually really important to me because like parents from India like have seen the worst in India and like there's so much corruption happening and like blockchain literally could save that um and like the people on Twitter from Iowa who have made a million dollars of hyper

liquid they don't really get it but like when you go to like turkey and you see the earthquakes that happen it's like holy [ __ ] this actually can be solved with blockchains but you know I'll die on the hill no but but forgetting all the the Twitter noise like what is it that you're trying to push forward who are you are if you're comfortable who are you speaking with yeah like are those public like it's like I it's pretty public it's like Senators it's like people who the crypto division like the house of Republicans like everyone's talking about crypto is actually a pretty big National priority right uh like Senator Cruz has been talking about it I was like with him like a few I was with the team a while back but I think like like the the point is like how do

we like people accept crypto now so like how do we use blockchains as a question like the first part is education like telling them like crypto is not a scam it's like 90% dropping like Bitcoin is real ethereum is real what is ethereum I don't even talk about movement at this point I just like talk about crypto and why it's important and like try to get them to use ethereum first and that's actually what the world Liberty guys are doing like I think the world Liberty stuff gets a lot of like Flock for no reason but those guys when took [ __ ] on have really good intentions they're trying to like you know bring bridge the gap between like governments Web Two and web 3 and like they're actually doing not touching a pitch Tech and raising $20 million launching a token they're actually like trying to get into

government and like the entire Trump family is behind it and I think this is where we we biurate crypto and blockchain like cryp crypto has the connotation that we were talking about earlier it's a casino it's fast-paced it's the first one to get in the market structure is [ __ ] 1% get rich 99% lose money blockchain injects uh transparency verifiability and a general ledger into the the largest financial system in the world and so by focusing to your point on blockchain and not so much on crypto we can start to bring in more of the crypto ethos through the technology and less through the finance yep and I think Rob basically what you're getting at and I know that we have to wrap here boys is

that we are going to see a massive shift towards non-speculative crypto use cases or let's say blockchain use cases like we were promised in 2017 on the white papers for dental Co Co and for lawyer coin and for smart contract to replace Uber and for this to replace that like there's a lot of small things that were happening behind the scenes and what rushi is talking about I think is is some of it where that's actually going to happen in the next five years in the biggest way that we've ever seen and I'm sure there will still be speculative boom and Buss that everybody who's on Shogun will love to be a part of but it's it's the it's that kind of next trajectory of the stable coins of product Market fit for the blockchains that is really going to take the space's

perception to like actually being cool in crypto but not being like cool because you're rich and mysterious but like you're like a part of society where even doing this podcast sometimes and telling people about it still feels like you're not a true part of of society in a weird way so anyways guys thank you so much for for joining us Rahul Brandon rousi Robbie signing off it's been a pleasure cool thanks guys thank thank you I ended up going R there dude I think I think that's so