Physical Infrastructure as a Precondition for Place-Making for the Commons

Transcript

All right. Uh good morning again everyone and welcome to the start of the third week future living in community and uh our first keynote speaker of this week is my dear friend Una Wang uh Una uh did a PhD for most of the time I was doing my PhD we were in in in well partners in crime, not really, but in suffering.

[laughter] >> Uh, but her PhD was uh in civil engineering and Una when we met uh Una was working on a self-owning house. Uh so a new type of of property really neither well has private elements has common elements public elements even but owns itself and and pays for it its maintenance. Uh a very interesting concept. Uh I once uh uh sat in a 2x two self-owning house at the EDH Zurich. Uh and well, Una's work has has evolved expanded since uh besides uh uh uh uh

working on on technical matters of of how does a self-owning house know its status and charge for its use and pay for its maintenance and so on. Uh Una has started uh building or continuing to to build uh the Ethereum community in Zurich. Uh uh yes to some degree you invited me to events there. Uh you were part of associations. Yes, I I would say that. Do you disagree? Am I misrepresenting you? I'm sorry. Uh and most recently has been involved in uh ETH is so uh the Ethereum floor of the festival of the future in

Munich. uh earlier this summer. Uh yeah, I'm excited to hear about uh her presentation on physical infrastructure as a precondition for placemaking of the commons. So as above so below. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Thank you for the intro. Uh hey everyone. Uh my name is Yuna and uh I just graduated from my PhD as we're a partner in suffering with Phelix. Um and that was a five-year journey of a PhD at ETH Zurich. Um and um actually my PhD project I put in the last as kind of the case study for what

I want to talk about today like about physical infrastructure and trying to hype everyone to be um plumbers of the future. Let's be plumbers of the future together. Um and why is it as above and so below is because actually how the word infrastructure came uh come from. Does anyone know where does the word infrastructure comes from? Um actually it's obviously always Latin and uh the prefix is called below. And in the early days when they do railways and they want to give a word to the actual structure underneath the steel and then all this base and what do they call it and they started calling it infrastructure. So um this is literally um physical

infrastructure where infrastructure the word coming from and they're meaning something below and that's why I think it's really funny because also um we're talking about I feel like when I'm in common hub there's a great feeling of in the mountains as evolve and uh infrastructure is like let's explore so below today and um yeah and the term infrastructure have changed since since then from uh concrete steel uh to in the actually late 90s uh first they started IT infrastructure so digital infrastructure started to be included seeing as part of also infrastructure or or generally infrastructure is made only for physical and then it it has

gradually moved on to more and more non-physical digital infrastructure I think everyone knows there's a lot of talk about digital infrastructure I think uh for example logos is always about digital infrastructure right and um and um one interesting thing is like from there's different views from different industry and economist has uh categorized infrastructure as hard and soft. I think it's very interesting and today we primarily talk about hard physical infrastructure. Um and I really like this. I think everyone seen this if you've seen like Steve Jobs uh legendary presentation he says people who are really serious about uh software should make their own hardware. So that's why I think we all should seriously consider um the hard

infrastructure of today. Um and then I want to stress a few points that I see why hard physical infrastructure is super important for today. And this is a little history from uh actually from Switzerland. Um I'm I study ETH Zurich if you know if you don't know it's like the top uh technical school in Europe. Um and actually the school and both the school and the bank credit switch which is now UBS both formed in 1955 and 1956 based on the need for they want to build actually the the infrastructure of the railroad. So the railroad actually was an initiative in 1853 and then um they built basically they want to have

engineers to able to build the railroad and they want to be able to finance it. That's why creditsw Swiss and ETH as a school was born. So I want to say that actually infrastructure is so important. It has been the precondition for institutional forming in the early days that formed the day that we live in today. And also infrastructure is super important for defense and this is um actually a story um I take from this book called carbon democracy. Um it's written by Timothy um Michelle and he gave the whole there's a really good chapter and argue about why infrastructure actually is important for defense and for resilience. He says basically his argument is that basically

when we change from coal to oil and because when like when people are the the production of coal needs a lot of uh decentralized let's say decentralized or distributed choke points so that the worker could actually take over control in this production line and then so they could have leverage basically because how coal was produced. But when we switch to oil u the production is so much more centralized and so the worker lack of leverage actually to strike or to have any leverage to resist. So that mean that become uh that make everything so much more harder and way more centralized. So I want to talk about um the second point is that I think infrastructure is super important for

defense and sovereignty strategically and also infrastructure physical infrastructure has been a precondition for human settlement. This is more like a you know um AI generated graph like um obviously a lot of you probably heard a lot of stories about how we're coming from hunter gatherer and then to nowadays digital right so infrastructure has been with us every step of the way since we made the stop in the early days when we were hunter gatherers you know about the story of a silk road all of this um infrastructure has been the first just a stopping point for actually when we move around and nowadays it has become come basically our permanent stop like it become so permanent and then we started living in

the city but I think we have nowadays actually a reverse which is we see what they call digital nomads right infrastructure have become so critical and very strong but we also gained great capability of mobility so that we can also actually move around which is an interesting phenomenon and that's why we it's super important to talk about infrastructure in this new light And and uh lastly I want to um this is closer I think to my heart where also my field which is architecture um I want to talk about infrastructure in the end as a way for placemaking. So um a urbanist um Lucy Gara has said like daily life is a journey through infrastructure

together they shape our social lives, our health, our productivity and above all our sense of place and community and infrastructure is the most boring but most important thing in placemaking. So I think um um and for placemaking I just like also want to want us to embrace and think a little bit about your past week in uh comments hub. Uh kudos to Felix who's zooming out now [laughter] and obviously everyone um everyone who contributed. I mean it's such a common place and everyone contributed. Everyone was cooking uh and cleaning and everything. I think um kudos to Felix also because like I think um comments

hub for me take all the points all these points what make a great um placemaking and uh have sense of belongingness as you can see I mean this is actually a a graph but actually um you like it's too too like so much measurements but you can only see like the socialability um uses activities and comfort um and um uh access and linkage as the four main aspects and uh for me I think uh comments help check all these points and then we can talk about infrastructure I think is super important if you all agree um precondition for a lot of things from the system perspective to very human

perspective our everyday experience what we touch uh what we talk how we communicate the medium of expression of a place and culture um And um but infrastructure has faced especially physical infrastructure has faced basically years years decades of uh centralization and um I use just like five top top ones I think most interesting to talk about from land, water, energy, transportation to communication. As you can see besides energy actually with uh movement of electricity, a solar panel and all of this has actually gone down from uh more distributed all the other is like kind of um more steadily going up. The the trend is more and more centralized both

for production and for usage from my perspective. Um and and more on top of that with the centralization of infrastructure. um our the the number one problem is the sustainability our earth a lot of pe it's not as healthy as before as depends on which time scale you talk about obviously but um I think um this is a scientist I really like car sagen and he already said that was like when he was alive was like like 80 years ago or 60 years ago and he already says that it's such an interesting time and he's so worried about um in the future you know air and water uh we is uh not so accessible anymore because compared to

any engineering system nature is still from our perspective the all giving and kind of for free we can take it um perspective but um I think with the sustainability if earth degradates and everything needs to be commoditized and this will be um very uh the condition you can imagine I think there are some artists also in the early days already started made some um art project where give you a can of fresh air right um that's could be the future that's why infrastructure will become more and more important and the twist is also that I think local production and local infrastructure will become more and more important exactly because of this and this is also a growing trend uh

the micro production and micro supplier is re reshaping res resiliency and the market actually is growing uh roughly it has gone from 8 billion to 70 billion projected to 2030 Um the page number is wrong. Okay. Um and uh and I and on top of all of this, I think the hope is that I think AI is also reshaping infrastructure, but make it also easier to access because I think one thing with physical and hardware, we also said the famous saying is like hardware is hard, right? And it's it's hard. It's physical and it takes a lot of um it takes it's longer and it's more fixed. But I think AI is actually really helping lowering the accessibility uh to infrastructure

and make people I already seen a lot of tinkering. I start tinkering again these days because it's getting more fun and I think uh hardware the barrier for hardware has been lowered and uh I think we can uh it's time to basically play with infrastructure again. And then that's like kind of my talk about how important infrastructure is, why I think now it's time for us to all be plumbers. And uh I give you a small uh actually next is my uh PhD defense thesis which is this self-owning house that Felix talks about in the very beginning. Uh in my PhD actually I give a little and you know because it's my PhD thesis presentation you will see a

more academic presentation from now. um the pre uh the the kind of a prayer is that um basically five six years ago uh uh the PhD uh started in the wave of I don't know a lot of you guys probably know Primabella's um you know like a little flower the planttoid and the nature 2.0 know thesis from Trent Maggoni. um the idea of like already like six years ago if IoT and blockchain and AI could come together and digital infrastructure can become like the the the nature system that just providing just being so drawn a lot of like kind of inspiration from there and there was like uh of early experiments

by then like artistic projects and also this imagination of um self-owning entities of machine and uh we started to thinking about can we bring to civil engineer and to buildings also my professor and our lab were super interested in idea of commons um uh from also a data infrastructure perspective how to build uh common data infrastructure and borrowing Nordstrom's uh thesis so that's kind of our starting point my starting point uh six years ago with a PhD and because it's very rooted in comments but at the same time we play heavily with the radical thought of radically integrating uh tech so that's Why I think Felix was like this kind of

like a little bit private a bit public a bit comments um um I think that's a discussion we can take um and that's open end uh my research was not to give it a definition but rather actually to ask right question that was my purpose um and here is um my actually my PhD presentation this is the first time I presented um anywhere else uh besides my defense uh actually I will skip a bit on some slides just so that it's easier to digest because there's a lot of academic things here about methodology and everything. Um actually my thesis is titled design machine agency uh decentralized self ownership and

regenerative governance uh for cyberphysical agents uh in the builder environment. Actually the self-owning house no one's one um uh yeah that was like the the opening which I already gave. Um and actually I would like you to probably watch this but there's sound. Can can I have sound or not? I can I can dub it. Okay. Yeah. This was actually um exhibition in 2020 one actually in um in ETH at world economy forum. um the exhibit in my house. Um I think it's a bit >> Oh, no. It's fine. It's fine. I think

it's fine. Don't worry. >> Ah, no. No, don't worry. >> I actually think maybe. >> Yeah, maybe. I mean, it's dopped kind of with AI female sound. So, you can watch the it's very it's kind of slow. Uh also like you can just see this is a early imagination of how we imagined obviously based on kind of this uh um nature 2.0 how imagine digital infrastructure on blockchain can really live and then can be like uh can access nature. >> Another suggestion.

>> Yeah. >> Oh okay. Yeah definitely. >> I didn't realize that would be better. Oh I was in Yeah. Great. So um it's like kind of uh as you can see the nature 2.0 thesis um ecosystem imagine an ecosystem community AI people um creating abundance commons in owned system and a house that dreams of people and things harmonizing into decentraliz organizations [laughter] existing on the blockchain. That's a CS six years ago right? Okay we're all burned out from dows now. um [laughter] also in real time and physical space. Um

and that little prototype actually is what I built. Um I'll show you more real photos later. And the thesis is really like this is kind of a preconditioning of of of where the kind of the background we set on sustainability, you know, institution trust me and the progress of AI, right? where we're heading and uh the more um I'm interested in my although I'm in civil engineer but I'm super interested in social technical system so the background is setting in like social technical system and my thesis is that um like in the social technical theory that we really little joint optimize um both uh technology and people and this is getting even hard it's getting more crucial actually to joint optimize a

system in such a way because um uh techn technology now is becoming people and people is doubtfully becoming more and more like a like robots. Um so um and in architecture um there's a orange inspiration that actually houses this machine for living in in the early days by Lakobuzia. So um and then started to imagining how to put this I don't need right I mean uh how like you know blockchain is magical. [laughter] Yeah. and its use case. Um um but in as I said before in my PhD I'm more interested in what question to ask.

um in the early days this is actually also architect Cedric Prince said technology is the answer but what was the question right I think um ironically we are in the time efficiency is so important and we always forgot to ask the right right question but it is also the time that we need to urgently ask the right question and so actually I went quite fundamentally into um the philosophy a lot about about things um I want to ask like what's kind of I said what how and why about machine agency self ownership basically what is decentralized ownership could look like um um and how does it operate and why and uh I went into very deep of the concept of ownership also I think this

you start to get more familiar uh what what like um about ownership I think everyone heard the bond of right bond of rights from Illinois right astrom or yes yes right he's a right audience the with the [laughter] [gasps] yeah um so there's like the whole theory of bundle of rights and then I um uh went into very deep into like what really ownership is because actually it it puzzled me almost for a year what ownership is. I read a lot of legal papers and about what ownership is and the more the closer I look the less I feel like I understand because in uh you know in in crypto it also always says we're like I don't know we're in

the era of owner web web three is own the layer to own right uh what but what is really uh owning and what are we really owning and if you look close and some of the claims start to dissolve right and um and then I start to thinking like oh maybe you can borrow Elenor's says like there's a lot of different kind of rights actually ownership it's a type of rights that you own for physical infrastructure and it has like prop properties and characteristics um I wouldn't go too far but um yeah like there's like this this is all in our room's uh um um um uh like then or has character has properties and you can probably access withdraw manage um

exclusion alienate and they change your status as a user or to a owner Um so but what I take out from this is that like ownership is informationational meaning that ownership is actually not the physical stuff that you own but the boundary that you own and the boundary is informationational. Uh you know what I mean like I I claim that I own this table let's say and it's not really that I can like I don't know somehow own but I own the right to use it now. That's actually what ownership is and it's actually very interesting. I mean I can go on and on about this um for for like an hour. There's a lot of case study. I don't know if you know like a very interesting there's a a guy in crypto that like kind of um decentralized himself uh into a DA and people can buy

a part of him and he for two years he like was uh only acting in the act that the DAO want him to do. So he kind of and then he almost created a modern slavery because uh because like the when the token dumped and someone almost bought him out. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. And then he was Yeah, it was really funny. You should check it out. And that's radically actually this kind of radical cases uh shine a light about what ownership really is. And in the extreme case, um you know what funny things we can do. Um but like yeah, ownership isformational and engineerable, which is a good news.

We're in engineer school. And then so this is like blockchain can engineer this. Um and then I got into actually this the second paper I'm really not going to go into it. My my main uh my main thesis here is that okay we know that ownership is engineerable but how do we engineer it because ownership is actually besides the right uh you know like and there's a lot of softuh qualities uh within ownership and that is hard to quantify and I actually uh I mean yesterday we talked about the reductionism in engineer I think it's a problem that if we want to just uh I think it's a big problem if we just say that oh I own this table and I infinitely device like let's say like I

own it from one to two two to three and three to four four to five and then you know there's a lot of theory how to modulize this right and there's just infinite amount of bundle right that you can claim and then you go into this loop that you want to be so like kind of high fidelity onto the right and then this is kind of infinite so I was really thinking about um how do we explain this kind of u um let's say like from a from a different perspective uh explain this ownership and uh and make it into a make ownership into an engineer system without the reductionist thinking that's just divise things into smaller smaller and modular bundles. So this is like a whole like morphological

analysis I did and trying to trying to like quantify the unquant not quantify that and quantifiable but kind of using a methodological approach to structure the complex multi-dimensional and non-quantifiable problem space. um I wouldn't go there. Um and then this that was the first question I asked about um what is ownership and how can we maybe design ownership in a system that is not reductionist um like uh like in uh like most of engineering practice. Um and second is how to operate such a cell phone in house and there's uh getting interesting where um yeah we did a lot of study obviously like this is life

cycle of buildings if anyone's interested in buildings let's take a conversation later about the whole life cycle of buildings and uh the whole engineering and anyways the prototype um in itself that I built was this little um solar power single-user self-owning meditation cabin um there's like two reason why I made it a meditation cabin one is like it's super easy like very practically like people go inside just like sit so I don't need to do any [laughter] maintenance afterwards and it's very simple interaction for MVP. Um second is also like I'm a long-term meditation practitioner and uh I like the idea of um thinking that you know because the nature 2.0 know that the house is being itself while you're

inside also being yourself. Um um and then obviously there's a lot of technical framework. This is how we build it and like there's a whole like process to it. Um bubble bubble and this is how you use it. There's like a really easy interface. You actually I mean by definition infrastructure is low you it's not it's supposed to be not so different than when you you know just use uh rent a smart room, right? you just like kind of there's a camera and like you kind of um like pay a deposit and then you say can I go in and then you go in and meditate and come out. Um that was kind of the process and of the testing of uh of of the whole process and some people told me later that it

feels like a upgrade of the lock you know the the the the DAO origin was based on a lock uh and it was kind of an upgrade version of the lock. Um yeah and then did a lot of testing and we did like yeah um and uh scientific contributions um and then the lastly like I I looked into like a regenerative system thinking. So the idea is that that now we kind of understand like ownership can be engineered and uh human machines ownership can both be engineered and uh for sure machines going to take on more and more ownership because they're going to have more and more rights uh to access all kinds of resources that we used to have. Um and how do we design a

system in such a way that maybe um could be um uh the idea is obviously that uh human flourishing alongside with uh tech progress, right? Um and um so I looked into regenerative system thinking and thinking how to uh this is different a little bit from regenerative agriculture. Uh regenerative system thinking is really like I bring it more into like engineering thinking. um how to design a system that is living and dynamic for machine agents and there um uh I come back a lot to placem again uh which um says human is part of nature process uh because it's focus on place and it's complex and living system it's really fitting for nowadays our um

system design for emerging systems and living systems and yeah this is kind of like the the argument for why using blockchain again. Yeah. Because you uh in academic you have to justify all the time uh why you're using blockchain. Uh um it's it's it's most likely taken as a as as as a negative [laughter] connotation that you're using blockchain. Um um yeah and then went into a little bit more on the theory. Actually I'm a huge fan of cybernetic theories. Um and um uh to talk about how the system on a system level and agent level. It's also very much inspired by a lot of work uh in cybernetics um done with another researcher Kelsey I don't

know from metaggov and also very inspired by um um uh Michael um from box science and he wrote a lot of protocol uh protocol structures institutions like this and um uh talking about how from a from an agent cyber physical agents let's say like the house that can operate itself but then how what's the institution initution above. Where's the common knowledge? How do we really build a such such a system can bring the network together? And there's a lot of exploration there too because alignment kind of is a big topic actually between you know um between actually agentic system itself and between human and agentic system is all big topics. So it's like very high level where I talk

about macro, messole and micro level and um given some system purposes and same same um kind of same thinking is that how do we approach um engineer system without a strict reductionist idea. So like not how do we have kind of more like um like um proxies of goals and proxies of of achievable goals instead of where's the room right for for a system to to evaluate um and then there's a lot of um this and I think um that's that's it. Um actually that's my PhD and uh that's it for my presentation today.

>> [applause] >> Thank you so much. Uh yeah, and I love I hope that uh you enjoyed it and uh we can have a good conversation. >> Yeah. Questions? >> Yes, please microphone so audience can listen to the questions and answers. Um I wonder if you can go a bit more into the how the engineering of the ownership for the house actually went using the blockchain layer like what was the logic of it?

>> Um it's very interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. The the thing is just like the the idea was just like blockchain why you know we got asked so many times what does block where does blockchain make a difference right? And then it's very quickly we realized that like it's not like bring just if it's just automation digitization and efficiency is not enough because centralized system it's really hard to argue against centralized system that they're not more efficient and you know they can do all the automation and digitization same similarly. So the idea is like what is the unique proposition of of blockchain which interestingly it's like kind of back to the ownership tech kind of it kind of distribute right inherently somehow it's a social technical system

like blockchain it's like social and technical at the same time and it has a connotation of uh ownership embedded almost in the structure of it. So that's why it's super interesting and that's why we position it as like a self-owning house also like it's uh interesting to talk about ownership and that's why like also um uh and then we also bring in the finance part of it in in the prototype it was very simple like simplified in the sense that it just like the house can have you pay actually the the the the money to rent just to the house and the house can decide what it what it do.

It's very very similar to planttoid actually that uh you give the flower and it kind of uh decides next generation itself. Uh like there but there's a lot we can do like we can do a dao on top of it. We can do like you know a lot of things but just for the purpose of like the research and it it was simply set like that. >> And what about the legal part? >> Oh the legal part is really not my part. I mean like I was super interested in the uh philosophy and theory of it but it's like really hard. I think it just not catched up. um if you have um it's going to be so slow and uh I think we're going to hit a hard problem and a hard uh issue first then the the law that

will think about how to adapt it because I mean it's the same exactly issue as we don't know if we give identity to a humanoid if like you know what problem will it have if like uh if a smart car um you know like lit itself and hurt somebody and whose responsibility is that who take the risk and you you know these are the problem in the legal system and there just for house is super tough because uh it's like it's a lot of responsibilities so >> hello >> hey >> nice to see you again >> um quick question do you have some references that came up in the last five years then >> after your thesis your PhD do you have

some have you seen some project that >> are insp inspiring in this line. >> Um like exactly same but I think I would say none like that's why I was like into uh community and all this network say things because I thought there will be some really interesting um experiments going on uh uh from like a community and tech perspective but very little go into like the real physical infrastructure. I mean we just discussed about like network school and the the you know like the compound and like the some buildings are you know not working or so like I think I think um this back to a big discussion you know about um how do we

think about actually as a crypto and digital nomads how we do we think about uh infrastructure and do we want to do more plugand play or we actually you know localiz in place I mean for for for for maybe something in between like it's I think it's complicated it's not as easy as a black and white answer. Um, but I think we need to invest more and basically my whole presentation is to encourage everyone to invest more in physical infrastructure and it be it's very critical for many many reasons, many good reasons. Not necessarily a question, but we have been talking about the potential uh of having a prototype here uh of of setting up a prototype of a self-owning house

that our guests could also stay at. And then this house would likely subcontract uh people from the hub to >> Yeah. >> you know, reset it, clean it after uh repair parts if they're broken. Um to have like a auto repair [laughter] so much little work on you. [snorts] Uh I would be still be interested in trying it. Um I do have a question though. I'm not sure if it's a good one, but uh maybe some of you are aware of the all-encompassing solar panel uh like threads. Where can this go wrong if we don't have any any limitations in the logic like a uh an

autonomous system expanding uh generating profit and using that profit to expand. So if we think about let's briefly sum up the the all-encompassing solar panel. If we had a self-owning solar panel that sells electricity and uh it and and gathers enough capital to buy more solar panels and and keep on expanding the solar panel, if we don't build any limitations into the system, uh we could foresee an earth covered in solar panels. That's not the purpose.

How do we uh uh guide rail against that? >> I think AI the current I think it's already smarter than that. [laughter] probably. Um, but yeah, like I mean this is a whole I mean I'm not pretending to have an answer. I think it's a tough question and there's a lot of ways that we can there are experiments going on that we can see how we live basically with AI together. I think undoubtfully AI is going to get smarter and smarter and it's about um how do we design system and that's why I kind of joke that six years ago still thinking about you know living system regenerative system for like AI and then now like too late it's already like it's like [gasps] the the labs already took control of the

system and that's it but like I think we still can design locally like I think it's super interesting to explore like sovereign AI and um local physical infrastructure ructure that's what I would encourage you Felix to do like have a small maybe sovereign data center and a sovereign AI and let's do experiment [laughter] >> um yeah thank you for the presentation and I my question is kind of related to this then what would be your suggestion what are the most critical pieces of infra infrastructure that should become

part of community building and really like regenerative and self-owned. >> Yeah. for for example but um for what purposes like because I can imagine for social or for let's say like um uh sustainability let's say for like a basic human needs is very different like um um if we're talking about like having a regenerative system then very big again like you know like I probably hard to pick the number one again um um do you have a specific um thing that you want to optimize optimize towards like more >> I mean not not specifically but I mean

just what you started with seemed interesting to me that these five >> really basic >> things have become so centralized. >> Yeah then my general probably just impression and feeling is that like uh first I think um is it a lot to say here like the water condition here >> there's no Oh okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's live streams. I don't know how many people are online is recorded also. I mean like the the I think first like if we are evaluating a site for example like oh what what is a uh there are a lot of things like this I think this principle keeps coming back all the time like I think for example Felix want to expand here and I think we talk about

that this this has great water resources and uh this I think it's it's very important and we need to look at the site from the infrastructure perspective and logistic perspective and to evaluate in this for example a valley that um also in Switzerland in conversation also very rich in this kind of like a future proof per se and then uh then if you want to um for social then there's like a whole um also theory we can go into about how to make uh great spaces I think actually Felix already achieved a lot there's so much common spaces here um but I would say like the problem currently like this is designing a space is the commons and caves so like I think there's not enough caves here for me

like [laughter] you know like you want to go public a common and cave. You want to go to interact with people, but you also want to withdraw to your solidarity sometimes. And then this uh but obviously that's a high standard and maybe you buy another building and we have more caves and [laughter] yeah, >> we are building caves all the time. Um and every year uh two three new caves pop up. Uh >> newest one being that door in the attic of the shed. That's a nice little cave for two people. Oh, >> while you still look into the comments and also you're scene but you're not hurt.

>> Uh but yes, more caves. >> These are some things for I would say to go for optimizing for social interactions. Uh also a lot of theory between this and the ratio and you know and and how to store community is another thing. Then like there's another parameters. >> Uh yeah, thank you for your fascinating uh presentation. Um, it reminds me a bit of, you know, what we have now at many airports, like you can have a shower there or or like a sleeping cabin and just lock in with your credit card. It's not self-owned, but it goes in that direction.

>> Yeah. >> Uh, it feels a bit cold to me. I'm I'm like, >> imagine I go into a sleeping cabin and then the um the currency system fails. Yeah. I'm locked in. Yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter and clears throat] >> And Well, >> yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. There might be some, >> you know, technical use in the cities, but uh and I I I' I'd like to add a little story to that.

>> Uh have you ever come across this Syrian arch female architect, Marva Al-Sabuni? >> No. She wrote a she stayed in Syria during the civil war and wrote a book about that called uh the fight for home or the struggle for home >> and brought up an interesting thesis. Um like the enormous violence that occurred between the different fractions factions in in the cities also happened because the cities were so ugly and so uh anonymous. So one people were shooting like a mortar from one neighborhood to the next not knowing where it would hit whether it would hit explode some school children or really innocent people. and

her thesis was the architecture of those cities helped to facilitate this kind of violence. Just just to add like >> to >> Oh, so your your worry is that like the autonomous cultness of this might incentivize certain uh >> Yeah, >> that's a design issue for sure. For sure. But um I I I have to say I think that this I I I I hope this is not [laughter] recorded like [gasps] um I think architecture actually hasn't been from the design perspective. We hasn't progressed since a long time and it was cool you know like oh so futuristic now it's like we're still using the same image that was like and then there's

nothing has happened really before and now nothing is like we're in this space like I don't know like that's not there's no imagination of what future maybe like solar punk is still one of the more better image that we can imagine kind of ethic of what's the future look like >> um that that is that is that is have hopes um and obviously like we have a lot but on the other hand we have a lot of doomsday image how this can go uh wrong but I hope Felix is not building a is building a solar punk uh center here you know in order thank [laughter] >> thank you yeah I I want to double down on that um you know it's like those vending machines basically right it's

about replacing and indeed uh it's it's when technology replaces humans >> um instead of supporting humans and and I would be curious to see how we can have technologies that create a safe space a bit like the the walls in the middle age >> that would basically create a safe space and within the walls you didn't need the technology of armors >> you could be very free to have human interactions within the walls >> I think yeah >> yeah and and when I see that like you see like ah yeah I have the same reaction as you >> um and uh and then the other thought that that cross my mind like oh that's interesting like this this this niche people who are looking into becoming like immortal with longevity and then there are people who look like how can I

be an immortal owner by basically automating my ownership. >> Yeah. >> So that even when I die the things will actually self own. Yeah, that's I have a lot of very interesting questions about I got a lot of feedback, but I think one one thing I really want to mention here is that actually um one thing I didn't come across in the presentation is that we really need to I think we're at a time we really need to redefine ourselves like actually we don't understand you know that's why I want to really go very philosophically into ownership because actually we're going to have the biggest identity like we just don't know who we are anymore. more because we're useless, you know, like we're becoming useless, but

uh what is really the need and we need to dig deeper and we need to think deeper. Actually, we need to collectively redefine oursel so that we can um you know, harmonize and know what we're building, you know, like because what we want to build in the end is when we know what we want. But at the moment the the collectively we're yelling for conveniency, efficiency and the system we build is for serving that and also the also economy and everything and if we don't redefine ourself what's our new need let's say like we all want to be creative and then like then we build the tools to to help us and then to for for that for flourishing in that way then it wouldn't the system wouldn't change right so I think the first thing is that

we need to think radically and about who we Thank you for uh stressing the importance of built infrastructure. I think that's really >> important point. Um a couple of days um social philosopher Ian Ilich would have turned uh 100 years. does his concept of tools for conviviality >> which uh >> I don't know >> I think it it [laughter] could have relevance for your topic and the question what what would be convivial infrastructure he uh defined conviviality as integrating personal

freedom with um collective uh interdependence >> and uh he said tools are convivial if they uh make your personal freedom, if they enlarge your personal freedom and at the same time um deepen uh interdependence. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um and he also had a concept of radical monopolies and >> um to my mind what we are experiencing with AI at the moment has a lot to do with radical monopolies. Uh >> can you explain more? Sounds very interesting.

>> A radi radical monopoly is a technique that uh is in a way forced upon you because you you cannot afford to not use it. >> You don't have a choice to >> use it or not because uh governments are working with it, companies are working with it, >> uh agencies are using it. So >> you're not free to choose whether to use it >> or not. Yeah. >> And at the same time you uh um the distinction between ownership and property is also quite relevant I think.

And AI as we experience it today is the property of not that many tech bros like Elon Musk. They are it's their property. I really I would love to see sovereign uh AI. >> Yeah. I haven't seen it yet. >> Um, so >> yeah. >> Yeah, it's it's well, it's not it's not really a question. I suppose it's more a comment.

>> Great. >> Um, and um, I really I really invite all of you to to check out the work of Ian. He was born in Vienna 100 years ago and I think it's really relevant today. Um >> and Matia's talk is tomorrow be there [laughter] advertise for you. I think it's it's great. It's great great things. >> Yeah, I I think it sounds a lot of concept really really clicks I think. Um um but I go back to we have to really also ask ourel what is freedom what are we

looking for what like because I asked the question what is ownership and you actually we cannot even answer if we own ourself and because I the radical question sometimes I asked is that like you know um mo majority of the country don't allow you to suicide um do you really control your you know per say right to die right if you really control your body and you actually we don't control as much as we thought. So um what is what what do we own and what is freedom um you know all of this and who we are we need to really think about it >> great thank you very interesting lots of points of contact which I can identify but what I'm thinking now is um on

taking forward infrastructure thinking about institutions as infrastructure as soft infrastructure and I'm wondering uh two things occur to me stimulated by your talk First, what institutions are a precondition of the kinds of ownership which you're talking about? And also, is the commons or could we make the commons a kind of institution which uh as a as a part of the infrastructure which supports the the kinds of ways of operating which you're talking about?

Yes, >> I'm not a political I'm not a political scientist myself, but I'm but I hear a lot about institutions and how important they are uh and how often they are neglected um and and overlooked >> in in in our kind of technical culture. >> What what would be your definition of institutions? >> Anybody help me here? >> Yeah, please. [laughter] >> Right. Well, in that case in that the mic goes to you in that case but but yeah >> I don't know if I can give a very useful definition because [sighs and gasps] it

generally tends to be such a broad idea that everyone defines it differently but an institution could be >> uh a sort of like enforcing enforcing um entity of norms >> um that helps people coordinate in for a certain coordination problem. >> Yeah, in that sense like yeah like I think already in per se like crypto comments per se the the small niche uh we already try to protocolize a lot of this right like this coordination all of this. Um I mean the original hope when we first talked to Phelix about the common papers is that we hope that blockchain is uh the technology help to scale commons. So that was that was that

was the hope and that's still the hope I think and um we're still early. [laughter] >> I think I was thinking mainly about sort of ordinary things like the legal system, the police system, you know, the kind of the the institutions which are used by nation states even if we really dislike nation states intensely, but let's leave it. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's there's just so much to expand. Sorry. like I think there's not a straightforward um answer to that but I think the the hope is but yeah just in the definition of institutions I think in comments there's also differentiations and the disagreement on to uh institutionalize or not and what is institution so yeah

>> um I've also been working on institutional design frameworks for the last four years and breaking my head around the same question that you asked >> and I think Um I think one thing that blockchain really missed is it focused so much on the technical that it forgot that there are also other forms of coordination systems that are necessary to basically anchor that and it came from purely this like technical point of view right like oh the like Dow so cool now we can have governance systems and we could all vote together but what if there is no culture of actually governing together >> what if there is no like social protocols that helps like you know binds us together to the problem and I think a lot of those experiments in the early

days failed because we didn't really anchor it >> in in in ways that it would actually last um so I and I think that is also shifting and changing in the field slowly and um I think it's really important to understand that Dows are actually just a very bad simulation of governance practices and institutional design practices that have existed for many years. Uh it is trying to do it in a technical fashion so we can scale it up. There is definitely some you know some some unique things that we can get from it but it it forgets that it comes from a lineage of practice

around human coordination that exists for many years and the point is how do we connect the two worlds. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I totally 100% agree. I mean I also worked on DAO since the past few years and just had a meeting with DA Swiss our members and our member joking if we're becoming cowswiss like CAO like centralized autonomous organization [laughter] because we're doing organized transformation um and uh um I think there's a lot of lessons learned from DOS right and including like we did a whole discussion with Aragon safe the one that's a DA tooling companies originated in Switzerland um a lot of lot of lessons learned. Um uh I

said we are early actually just a conversation we had with AI u who's like uh and then he he he says we're early but maybe in my grave I will say we're early until my grave u so always early um I I I I do think the field is maturing right I think there's better more mature solutions already and definitely a lot of um assumptions in the beginning um um and it's like a vast experimental space Um yeah that's that's actually I I I totally agree that's why from me if I also go in from a nerdy engineering perspective when I design a system I look into let's say like leaving emergence all this emergence system and just like basically new theories that

can incorporate the the the part where it's like hard to talk about um better um rather than like kind of um yeah like you know like such a reductionist and you like very technical perspective of it. Uh I think we haven't found it yet though. >> Uh like or do you have an answer? >> Yeah, I DO. I I HAVE A colleague [laughter] who did some really great work on mapping DA mechanisms to ancient East African practices on how the Masai and other tribes there basically did uh governance around environmental practices. and she mapped basically like okay this was

already happening and that same mechanism has been made technical and it's now a part of a DAO feature or something like that. >> So did she she did some incredible work mapping that um the book it's part of a book called ecological institutions which is outside so if people are interested you can look into it. >> Yeah. What >> what what is the top things that you think is missing like that it was stressing that it was missing in Dow like >> that are missing in Dows? >> Yeah. >> No, what is actually missing is is no it's like okay how do we gather together?

>> How do Dows gather together? Is it purely based on Zoom calls? Um is it >> Zoom calls? >> Is it like you know in maybe in traditional practices maybe they come together every day in the evening under a tree or something like this or in their community garden to discuss [snorts] things but how are Dows actually gathering and building a culture of sense making over time? >> Yeah. >> Uh are there ways to do more than just binary yes and no? >> Um how is that reflected? How is like you can it can be converted into technical protocols. I'm not saying no but I'm saying that dials have a very mechanical way of thinking whereas the olden systems have a very relational way

of thinking. So this this seems very hardcoded and sometimes feels very you know >> sort of like a fixed table point which is hard to maneuver and also the UIUX I mean Dows have not >> cracked that part at all where the UIUX kind of feels alienating to participate and to actually you know propose everything is in the form of a written context where somebody has to write everything down. So oral traditions often get left behind. uh it it is not very let's say inclusive of practices that have already exist and if often comes from a point of replacing what is already there.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think we're definitely more matured at this point. I think most of people that are have experience in DOS knows that it's not a silver bullet anymore. >> Um that we cannot use it for everything and then but it it has still qualities. That's the lesson we learned, right? Like the it has qualities that's good for certain things that's really good for certain things. and then the UIU US how itself can improve and all of this I think um let's see where it goes and I'm really interested in see more like AI experiments with it too um >> and also to your question Matias there is a project of sovereign AI in Switzerland public AI >> have you heard of it that that's a cool example I cannot speak more about it more than that I know that it is done by

the Swiss government as a sovereign AI project maybe you know more about it >> yeah yeah I know I I know about the project but not too much more we can share Um, >> is it time up or I think it's >> Oh, yeah. We have so much time. So, >> could you repeat this famous quote from Leopier? Like, a house is a social >> is a machine to live in. as a machine.

>> But that was like the, you know, >> Yeah. >> the time for uh modernization where like we kind of first discovered machine and super excited. >> Yeah. Right. Right. I shudder a bit when I hear this. >> Yeah. >> Uh also concerning Leopusier's cold architecture. Yeah. >> And um so one one aspect that I'm um quite aware of and I'm still missing in a lot of the technical discussions is beauty.

>> So >> yeah, >> and we need that as a quality. I mean we can >> it goes in in the same direction as the argument from the Syrian architect. If you just house people in boxes, they get aggressive like rats in the laboratory. Yeah. And and there must be something more like beauty shared. >> Yeah. >> How how I'm quite suspicious how a technology would do that rather than it could serve like to operate for example a a skyscraper with um inbuilt uh um growing gardens on the facade or or green houses like to run the technical infrastructure. Fantastic. But

>> yeah, >> like the the general quality or autonomy. Whoa. I'm >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can see a comeback for like a great craftsmanship like with the 3D printing, all of this. It it could come back. It just like the the economy of it still hasn't worked out so much yet. Otherwise, I think, you know, it facilitates so much of beauty making. >> Uh we just haven't haven't been there. It's not fully there yet. Um yeah, >> you might want to check out the presentation from last Friday of the couple that runs Farm Lab at like >> and what I found really touching there was they have all the latest stuff, the printer and the 3D and laser cutter, but

they also engage in like old old ways of like the spinning wheel and and weaving and I found that very integrative like the whole spectrum so you we can >> everyone can choose. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, definitely. We should definitely do more experiment and I totally agree. >> I I hope that there's like a movement of new ethics coming. >> Um at the moment we lack of a vision. I think >> a little thing more if I'm allowed the same thing happens in music, you know, with the AI music. I have Sunno 5 which is one of the latest AI things and I just told it like make me a folk song about uh freedom and responsibility took

two to three minutes you can't distinguish it from anything you hear in the radio but my hope is that or I guess like music created like this will be like peanuts on a bar shelf you know you just you know eat it or you leave it doesn't it doesn't mean anything and I hope This will be also like your naance of life performances where you feel like a a soul that wants to say something or transport a narrative or meaning. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If we figure out actually um that also like I think we need to figure out the science of being present.

>> Yeah. >> Uh you know like what is really I mean for sure there's like something we're exchanging here even we're not you know like uh [laughter] uh touching each other you know. Yeah. Um now quick reflection. Uh quick reflection. Um I heard in India there is some kind of uh sleeping mattress of net that are shared >> in a square. So people when they feel sleeping they just go there and sleep.

And this this commonality this shared resource. >> Mhm. >> I'm not sure who's taking care of that. If it's uh also taking care take care by by neighbors maybe >> uh or just people visiting and staying there and taking care of the net. Anyway, uh it's uh to me it's in thinking about uh a house as uh you uh proposed in maybe a more adequate climate >> that is some comparison which doesn't need maintenance, doesn't need much cost. So it's actually

>> just there which is comparable some part can be a park you fall asleep in there it's a common yeah >> you go there you sleep go away >> mhm >> cool uh maybe can be maintained by maybe uh neighbors or people passing by or just the government institutions and uh getting to a more complex uh situation where you have uh as you proposed these houses they are selfowned or at least they can provide themsel for maintenance.

Um and thinking about a more social interaction situation. Yeah, >> you have uh uh in some way you have this uh one side you have this sleeping pods owned by either uh company or can be in this case a DA or something like that which is a situation where you you go there you use it you don't have attachment nor >> um um social interaction there.

>> Yeah. >> So it's like a cold technology you use in your benefit and then you leave. There is nothing more than that. >> Yeah. >> And when you have a and I'm I know it's a bit wide uh um >> Yeah. Yeah. No >> conversation. Um I would like to put a bit of attention how can we actually make it less cold. M >> and I'm thinking uh I have another um uh this um inspiration in my mind about how uh Japanese uh elder people uh are helping out uh the

public space. So cleaning up, >> they have free time, they're cleaning up, taking care of people, uh taking care of kids crossing the road. So there is this you know the taking care of common spaces or common tools we want. Mhm. >> So that to me is something to keep in mind that we still have a lot of possibilities also to take this cold uh technology or or tools and make them and bondings bending in some way and making them together with the uh social uh interaction that we can tap into uh as elder in Japan but it can be anything

anything does. >> Yeah. >> Um just a quick reflection on that. How can we actually bridge? >> Yeah. Yeah. To bridge like kind of the the usage of the space um between machine human. For sure. For sure. I think it's a a vast possibility space. were also very culturally differenced as you see like Japanese like to do that you know like like some US not [laughter] like or I don't know some different country are less less caring and how do we incentivize I think a lot of culture context there too um how do we in incentivize people to do such things and um yeah yeah my mind actually still at the moment

want to more take it into like uh uh artistic experiment actually um um to maybe still keep it like uh I don't know meditation pot. I think it will be actually interesting um that um you can also like such a thing can you can pause in a in a in a busy train station or so and then like you have a space that's that's can stop. Um yeah I mean a lot of possibilities. So we also brainstorm actually also a lot like with a lot of also different kind of networks they set up different communities uh yeah they can you can contribute to

maintain um actually there's one that's super interesting experiments in in Japan in in Japan um that um uh well I forgot I keep thinking that is a IKEA collective IKEA collective definitely Check them out. Very interesting. It's like uh because the Japan real estate has tanked. So it's super cheap to buy a house and uh a lot of people went to buy IKEA just means like a empty house and then they basically says like we will kind of take over this house for almost no money and then actually money is not a currency.

So actually a bunch of young people and then you were there actually pay with your maintenance for the house and they have to renovate the house anyways. >> What's the name? >> Aka Collective I think. Yes. >> AKA. uh a ki y a and uh yeah like and uh keep from Japan it's very much was with kia collective and now he's uh also buying cheap houses in other towns in Japan. Um I think there there there could be radical experiments that's less like kind of a we take on like uh human can take on maintenance role if if that's you know what we think we want to do. The point is we have to think about what we want to do. Do we want uh everything taken care of or do we want but maybe we

should have option. Yes. >> Yeah. To Yeah. Um I I always wonder like how you know it's always tempting as a technologist to to try to replace >> uh humans. And what I've learned from my own past experiences doing startup is at first I tried to automate and then it didn't find any resonance in the market because um and then as soon as I stopped automating it >> but instead build a tool to help people do what they want to do >> then all of a sudden it found resonance because people were they were proud of it.

>> Yeah. >> And they could share it. And there's a similar story about I don't remember but like when uh they introduced the first like uh recipes when you can make like just powder and you add you know water and you put that baking and and same thing like there's this famous story where it was not selling very well and then as soon as they they actually said like hey you need to add an egg >> um then all of a sudden it it it took off because then people felt a bit of a sense of agency >> and so to that lens like I I wonder how all of those technologies could be in kind of developed more in the uh towards surfacing what needs to be done and surfacing the people who contribute to maintain the

comments >> and so I don't know if you have any examples of that and uh what was the the outcomes >> interesting was that a question or just a comment >> yeah it's a question like if you if through your research you've actually stumbled upon that I mean you mentioned this uh aa collective I think it's very interesting. I I I'll try to find more information about it. But um yeah, how how might we, you know, if the blockchain and stuff can be tools to scale the commons, how might we turn our public spaces into um yeah into spaces that really invite for contribution and reward those contribution, incentivize for contributing to maintain those spaces >> at the common in Brussels. every Friday

we clean the park in front and and so that's an example of that but it's we haven't find a way to scale that we we haven't found a way to >> you know we do that because we are crazy but not because it's something that >> yeah actually I don't have a good answer for this is I think it's a tough it's a lot of emergence and also a lot of relationship like I I stay here and I feel um I I should help uh you know if I stay in the next house. I probably feel less uh like responsible for helping.

It's a it's very uh uh p personal. I think um there uh it reminds me of two experiments like one um actually both uh both the experiments is in China. One is like a I don't know if you know like the 706 um it's like it was like just some dudes want to college kids want to open their dorms to for a conversation and they call it like um a city living room. So they open their living room to everyone like to come like kind of gather and really become like more a vast decentralized network and um uh for for young people together and all of this and everything is most likely voluntarily Um and um I also had a lot of discussion in 4C's for example about

hops and voluntary contribution. Um there's also I know that there's like a big DAO actually in China. I forgot the name but they were trying to send younger kids to village to help uh kind of uh uh make change their village and equip them with tech and also help maintaining the the village and they get like paid with uh cryptocurrencies. Um I forgot I have to ch I have to check it. I forgot it's a it's also a Chinese name and the the and then in in the end the discussion actually it's a lot about a lot in the end and in like a very human also I talked to IKEA collective the founder a lot is very humanbased like the IKEA collective founder talk

about that she goes to um every morning goes out um um uh like to do a I don't know this like a exercise with a grandpa like you know in the village and then like over time Then they they because they don't have money so they actually literally exchange building material with the locals for exchange like whatever they have they go exchange stuff uh and the the trust is building on based on like go to do exercise with the grandpa and uh and I when I was talking to this uh Chinese group and then they were like frustrated younger kids frustrated they like have a huge understanding like information gap with the villagers and I was just jokingly says like you probably didn't do enough exercise in the morning with the

grandpas, you know, like this is a um respons feeling of responsibility and maintaining is a lot have to do with uh with this this this relationship building and how we feel in the space and how you know like uh how we see other people act. I see Felix getting stressed and I want to help. I don't know you know. [laughter] Yeah. Um yeah. >> Uh I can share something. So I'm living close to the city of Rosenheim which is about I don't know 40,000 or something. Yeah. And they had a poor neighborhood and had someaa case of vandalism.

>> Mhm. >> And so they in the park or around the multi-story buildings. So they worked on it and made it a bit more beautiful and they then gave stewardships like pe people are like you are the steward of these two benches or of this you know little monument. And this changed a lot. Yeah. >> From making being the place somehow impersonal to like okay stewardship. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I think interesting also to just like as a discussion here um I think where where we're landing is like uh the the the bodily experience recently this is what I really um also philosophically interesting and uh what is I think we have actually because of the tech uh we

I know like I think generationally we are more and more kind of there's like the whole thing about thesis about loneliness and the whole thesis about the lack of third places and the whole thesis that like our kind kind of like our our brain kind of are in like uh uh the digital space and uh you know I I I have great chat room friends says like all my digital friends are like are in chat rooms and rather than physical um but I think this this also obviously have great problems they provide great conveniency uh but the problem is really like I just two days ago I watched the interview and uh I I wouldn't name him just because he's already famous and then like he like it's a young kids in AI very successful and then he just says

like that um he says reality is ugly and uh perception kind of like people rather live in perception and then like you know uh it's all about how project perceptions now into people's mind right and I actually think nowadays it's because of AI the disinformation and all of this actually perception this like used to be like you know open space and have more information now it's like overflooded and we don't know how to judge what is right information anymore. So I think that is corrupted and we need to go back actually to our bodily experience again to be anchored um and um and and and to find some magic there.

Actually I always say like also had a philosophical conversation with another friend and I was like don't undermine your body because like recent study actually shows that our enzyme like in our body can do a quantum tunneling. How cool is that? Like you know our enzyme really go for the research paper and check it out. So like our bodily experience is I think it's very important here. Um and how do we uh come back to that? I'm not sure a question but it's more like a reflection on yeah >> that's connecting beauty ownership and stewardship >> everything is related to how much you are involved in this you and and also it's a relationship with the space as I

have a background in architecture and >> spaces shapes >> behaviors so and also in technology >> so and and I think this quote of the centralization. So we are and also it happens with the machine in with le corouser le corusier and making everything more h efficient. So we are taking things off in order for to create the most efficient system and then we are taking out cultural parts or the DNA part that comes from the one that is interacting or the culture or the country or even the environment nature.

>> Yeah. So when we focus too much on this efficiency is we are taking this part that is also bringing the beauty that is beauty is very cultural also. >> Yeah. So in this way of optimization and creating the better systems we are looking we are like missing this other part that is the rawness and the sometimes it's not even beauty and this is what happens in slanks and in favllas or in laseras in Argentina people take ownership of that and they take care of that even in the messy environment that that they care.

>> Yeah. So even you see it in poor neighborhoods they are commons the streets are taken care by the people and they do create murals and they even have watch around themselves and they support each other. >> Yeah. >> So is this thing that I see the contrast on what is happening for example in the global south on places that there are a lot of needs and sometimes in this crazy environments things are working in this chaos. Yeah.

>> And then you see what happened like in perfect neighborhoods or even in fancy and with more money neighbors everything is perfect but then you lose this human rawness. >> Yeah. And I think and I see sometimes the same means building the structures in technology >> like there's of course you need the order in order to create an optimal system but how we can bring this other dusty aspects on that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of data and dirt. [laughter] >> Yeah. Um yeah like I mean uh just as a discussion also chatting um a very a thing that I've been uh recently also thinking about in my head is also like that um I think um I lost the strain of thought suddenly [laughter] um >> let me think quickly >> data dirt >> yeah that actually >> was it that's very good my throat um um um no it something before you said about the the rawness of uh of the experience and stuff.

>> Oh yeah, I I remember. No, I think like definitely I think it's so evidented that like um whatever that our society sometimes optimizing towards is not what we need, right? like happiness, connections, relationship has nothing not much to do with there's a lot of studies about you know how much money is a threshold you materialization that you need to reach is like a level where uh that's like m the more accumulation of material where or or optimization of material doesn't bring you anymore and there's also a lot of things about um uh I mean I watch a lot of things and then there's like um for example Tibetan monks always says that They're they're like Tibet. It's like a really hazard

environment per se like to live in like they don't have really food and nothing like it's super high altitude but people are super happy like um and um sometimes uh happiness and what we really need is not what we thought but there I think we have to be super super careful because there's like um uh it's actually about the concept of materialization of of of of um um of of concepts of of everything and There's like a trap everywhere, you know, like um even even let's say how do we define freedom and how do we radically open to to to what we're talking about and instead of suddenly become like against proposition um and

uh trapped into the problem instead of trying to uh bring a um to a better place together. Um this is a this is a actually a very very deep philosophical question and I often think about this um also like in Buddhism principle there's like the saying kind of like uh it is and it's not and it's not is and it's not not is you know like the situation is like literally the situation is kind of uh is is it's like this and it's a very hard um I think this radical openness is what we need really to uh uh in this in this space and to rethink about our identity but it's it's going

to it's so tough but we have to start with ourself right >> maybe another key to this can be uh are we obsessed with the specialization with infrastructure we understand the value of things and we strictly committed to to that uh building of that infrastructure we see the power and importance of that in the long term. So we are preparing that first so everything else can come up and sometimes we are not thinking on >> getting slowly there knowing already that we need at some point >> and the the the

as soon as we start with that the better will be but we actually have maybe at some point by experience at least to start slowly and build together and then when it's very messy add uh this infrastructure which can be a bit lumpsy to adapt to this new phase but maybe is the natural course where things should happen. uh talking mostly by experience in Akasha hub and building [laughter] up the whole infrastructure then nobody show up >> and you're like okay it [laughter] uh let's centralize let's do I do it myself and [laughter] building building

people like do you need help yeah please let's go and then slowly and and having troubles in between people and then suddenly get to a point we should need something like that yeah it's been built like five years ago but >> and nobody [laughter] was there. Glad >> you asked. >> Yeah, I think that's that's happening in our sector at least. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just for that specific question, I also think come back to what you said about like the need the human need, right? Sometime we're fantasizing that there's a need for I think there is a need but uh we have to find exactly what keep like people actually comes uh keep coming back. there's a there's more just like a more than just like oh I have space it's

come you know but I think it is a need we have to discover that it just um be more precise about uh how to how to um but yeah I mean now it's doing good or not okay see great [laughter] yeah >> um I just want to say we are time but uh and I think we have been making una talk for 70 90 minutes now and I'm sure she's also tired. >> Yeah. So, if you want to close it, I think we can. Yeah. Okay. Let's close it. [applause] Any last words?

No last words. You get to [laughter]