Phantom CEO & CTO on One Crypto Wallet For Everything?

Transcript

Phantom which is a crypto wallet it's kind of similar to metamask kind of in browser and it's been previously on the Solana wallet and now it is going to be deployed to ethereum and I wanted to see it for myself because I have not had any experience actually with Phantom to date does that um that will displease the soul Max will also be joining you in that this will be the first time I've seen uh the Phantom wallet but from everyone that I know in the crypto world uh who goes across all the chains much more than you and I have that have the time for they say that their favorite thing about Solana is the Phantom wallet so now Phantom they've announced that they're

coming to the ethereum layer one and also polygon uh and so uh the joy that is Phantom wall is about to be able to be experienced by the ethereum side of things so Ryan I'm happy to have you join me on one of the daffa leak episodes yeah am I doing it right so far that's great I'm super excited honestly like and this is more than just a conversation I think we're gonna actually see some live demos here of what's going on what what Phantom is about to release guys before we get into it I want to tell you about another tool that is essential for your bank list Journey that tool is called obelis David tell about this yeah so there's a bunch of things that we like to do in the world of web 3. we like to work for a dow or perhaps we like to be an nft

artist things that are confusing to typical nation-state employment structures uh do you how do you manage payroll how do you manage health care how do you manage uh your taxes when you are working on the frontier in ways that the nation state doesn't understand wellopolis is here to help you do what you do best which is continue to be working on the frontier of web3 while also being compliant with taxes and also getting Health Care opelous is a co-op and so everyone who is a part of the obelis ecosystem they all come together and then opolis negotiates for better and better Healthcare rates and services from uh because of how many people that they have uh in the Obelisk Co-op they

are able to negotiate health care services for their Co-op members also because it's a co-op if you sign up for opolis you also become an owner of opolis sounds pretty damn web3 to me uh and so if you join soon by the end of this month by December 31st you get a thousand work tokens which is the token of the opolis co-op and a thousand Bank tokens as well there is a link in the show notes for you to get started so you can continue pioneering out the frontier with healthcare because the frontier is dangerous all right that is important of course independent contractors and crypto you absolutely need to check this out all right David uh do we want to say anything more about Phantom so um actually I I don't know the details in terms of when they're deploying so

I'm hoping to ask that in the fandom guys I'm also hopeful to see kind of a demo of what this looks like ideally the demo that's kind of multi-chained so showing us like ethereum and Matic what what else should viewers pay attention to today yeah I think that well first off the ethereum ecosystem could definitely use some competition in the wallet space metamask definitely dominates uh rainbow is definitely growing in market share but more wallets competing with other Wallace is always great and sounds like Phantom is doing is entering the Ring of competition in the ethereum ecosystem uh which you know competition is great for the consumer I'm also I also want to ask about uh because like on the metamath side of things there's always like the inferior back end uh it's not it is controversial

even though it shouldn't be but we will ask about that like how how does transactions get broadcasted how what is the back end of the Solana wallet as well how bankless is it how badly autonomous is it exactly yeah but I think those are the big angles to pay attention to well guys we'll be right back with uh Brandon and Francesco from um Francesco from Phantom but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible arbitrim1 is pioneering the world of secure ethereum scalability and is continuing to accelerate the web 3 landscape hundreds of projects have already deployed on arbitrum 1 producing flourishing defy and nft ecosystems with a recent addition of arbitrum Nova gaming and social daps like Reddit are also now

calling arbitrim home both arbitrim1 and Nova leverage the security and decentralization of ethereum and provide a builder experience that's intuitive familiar and fully evm compatible on arbitrum both Builders and users will experience faster transaction speeds with significantly lower gas fees with arboretum's recent migration to Arbiter Nitro it's also now 10 times faster than before visit arbitrim.io where you can join the community dive into the developer docs Bridge your assets and start building your first app with arbitrum experience web 3 development the way it was meant to be secure fast cheap and friction free the brave wallet is your secure multi-train on-ramp into web 3 and is built directly into the brave privacy browser gone are the days

of managing multiple wall extensions that put you at risk of fishing spoofs and tracking with the brave wallet you can securely manage your crypto assets across more than 100 different chains including ethereum layer 2's Solana and more all without downloading risky extensions the brave wallet is easy to set up and removes the headache of jumping between wallets and extensions it's lightweight but packed with great features like built-in token swaps buying and holding nfts with a gallery view and support for Hardware wallets but also much more than that because Brave is shipping new features every single month with a mission to make web 3 easier to navigate for its over 55 million users while extensions are a thing of the past so get started with Braves web3 ready browser today an experience a decentralized web

seamlessly without all the Clutter you can download the browser at brave.com banklist and click the wall icon to get started how many total airdrops have you gotten this last bull market had a ton of them did you get them all maybe you missed one so here's what you should do go to earnify and plug in your ethereum wallet and earn if I will tell you if you have any unclaimed air drops that you can get and it also does poapps and mintable nfts any kind kind of money that your wallet can claim earnify will tell you about it and you should probably do it now because some airdrops expire and if you sign up for earnify they'll email you anytime one of your wallets has a new airdrop for it to make sure that you never lose an airdrop ever again you can also upgrade to earnify

premium to unlock access to airdrops that are beyond the basics and are able to set reminders for more wallets and for just under 21 a month it probably pays for itself with just one airdrop so plug in your wallets at earnify and see what you get that's e-a-r-n-i dot all right guys we are here with a phantom team to talk about ethereum's newest wallet um I'm expecting big things from this guys no pressure but I've heard so much about Phantom when I kind of see this we've got Brandon who's the CEO and co-founder and Francesco who is the CTO and co-founder guys welcome to bankless yeah thanks guys appreciate it okay so I I would say welcome to ethereum but you guys are like you've been on ethereum before and you've been building on ethereum previous to Phantom uh can you

tell us about that and like let me be maybe one of the first to say welcome back to ethereum if no one's ever said that on a podcast with you uh it's great to have Phantom entering the ecosystem we're very excited but can you can you tell us about your stories in crypto how you start a phantom awesome yeah first of all thanks so much for having us uh on the show uh super exciting to kind of give everyone a preview of what's to come from our side uh and what to expect and uh yeah a long time long time listener so uh pretty surreal to to be on here so appreciate it cheers um cool yeah well I can I can kind of get started just talk a little bit about you know how how we got started how we how we ended up where we are uh yeah

because you guys have some experience like before Phantom take us to the before Phantom days and then the story of phantom totally so um Francesco myself and Chris who's third co-founder uh we all got our start in crypto around 2017 so if you remember that sort of the uh the previous hype cycle all about icos white papers sort of ethereums come up um and we all got our start at a crypto startup called Xerox uh which is a company that develops decentralized exchange technology um sort of in the ethereum D5 space and uh we kind of got our start actually

before D5 was was even coined uh as a term yeah zero which was a 2017 darling yeah I remember yeah yeah good good times um like coined the term or someone at zero X was involved in coining the term D5 yeah there was like a bit of a story there there's sort of a like a telegram group or where D5 was originally coined and uh we had with a couple co-workers in that group um but yeah anyway so you know that's kind of how we got we got started um and yeah that was a really different time it was basically the whole defy web3 space was really emerging from this sort of primordial goop of of the permissionless blockchain

um and everyone's just sort of like you know working in their Lanes trying to figure things out and so the area that we were um you know very fortunate to be able to work on was this centralized exchange area um and from basically the course of 2017 and 2021 so about four years uh we were you know uh doubling down on decentralized Exchange um and had the uh you know great opportunity to work on a number of pretty widely used um dapps uh in the ethereum space so uh one of them is called matcha.xyz which is a DEX aggregator that you may have used or some of the listeners may have used uh but basically it's a it's a dab that helps a user get the best price

possible for a swap by sort of scanning all the different types of decentralized exchanges out there and we also worked on sort of the back end technology for that called Xerox API which actually is used to power a number of swap experiences across the entire ecosystem so that's kind of where we cut our teeth and uh where we really got to um get some experience building the apps that at scale and through that experience we sort of uh were able to uh gain a couple of key insights so the first Insight that we gained was that the wallet is basically the bottleneck of growth for the entire web3 ecosystem

so once you start building adapt and you get to a certain size and you say hey let's really start um you know being diligent about trying to grow the DAP analyzing growth funnels and all that you end up realizing that every single funnel ends with sending over someone over to metamask so whether that's on the sign up flow you ask someone to you know install a wallet you kind of kick them out to metamask and hope that they return and then even on core flows like even on the swaps every single flow terminates in you know a metamask pop-up and sort of praying that you know the wallet is sort of holding up its end of the bargain and properly guiding the user towards those those

last last steps um and so yeah we realized that you know wallets were um I think not necessarily innovating at the pace that we would like um working at the application layer and we decided hey like someone needs to kind of Step Up um and push the competition here and so that's kind of what just how we decided to go after Phantom in the first place was was through our experience working at Xerox is there any uh part of the wallet ecosystem the wallet flow or ux that uh really identifies like Nam damn this is really broken I would like to fix this this part is not being Innovative on somebody should do this

maybe we should do it was there any any what like parts of the wallet world uh you remember as like the thing that you really wanted to Target yeah totally well yeah like I mentioned before so there's two two main areas so there's one sort of like signing up for adapt um sort of necessitates you uh going over to a wall and installing it so the whole onboarding piece um to this day remains pretty um hard for normal users but that's definitely one area that we were looking at and wanting to innovate and then the second is uh the actual uh transaction authorization so when people are um you know performing transactions and

approving them they usually don't know what they're doing um they see some information about call data or um addresses or something like that but vast majority of people don't know what's going on and it's very confusing and so um that's another area that we were looking to innovate can I ask you a question that's been on the back of my mind um we love that you guys are in ethereum what took you guys so long to get here and So like um you know is it you started in the Solana and many of our Solana friends have always been very excited about about the phantom for Solana uh there's clearly a desire from the ethereum

community uh why now can you talk about some of the decisions uh behind that yeah um well kind of going back to my like an initial intro so we kind of had two two main insights actually that that guided us towards building Phantom one was this idea that hey um we're working on the wallet is probably the highest leveraged place that we can we can be to actually help grow the entire web through ecosystem um the second Insight is that the world is moving towards a more multi-chain future um and actually for me personally the first time that that really kind of came to fruition for me was um observing uh the rise of binance

smart chain in 2020 and before buying a smart chain it was pretty much Unthinkable by anyone in the ethereum community that as a user a developer you would use anything other than ethereum but binance smart chain really challenged that notion and really showed that one there was an appetite for faster and cheaper blockchains but especially if you couple that with like the distribution of a giant like binance um you can actually really kind of shift them escape and so the second major Insight that we had was that the world was moving towards a more multi-chain future and so that's where the provenance of phantom is a multi-chain metamask competitor so then that brings me to your question

you know kind of what took us so long to come to eth and what kind of what brought us down the path that we did um we decided that we saw firsthand that how dominant metamask was on ethereum and uh understood that there are some very powerful Network effects going on there and understood that it would be very difficult to compete head-on with metamask so what we decided to do especially because we believe that the future would be multi-chain was to basically carefully pick an alternate uh L1 blockchain to start our journey on use that [Music] um blockchain to sort of carve out our home turf and then use the momentum use that

time on that blockchain to build momentum and sort of cut our teeth with the Prada and then sort of propel ourselves over sort of the kind of next legs of our journey but the problem with that was that we ended up exploding in uh like Solana ended up exploding in popularity in popularity and growth and uh we basically had to just double down just to survive basically and uh and and ride the waves so to speak and so I think in an Ideal World we've had we actually would have uh come home a lot sooner uh so to speak but um yeah we really had to basically double down to to serve the the

community and and all of the activity that was happening there I think by the way partially because of phantom uh Solana saw such such fantastic growth like a very polished a strong ux experience and wallet side helps with onboarding for sure started roadmap we actually actually even had I think during our son of beta we had a evm wait list uh so we were very optimistic about when we would be able to ship multi-chin uh and then I'll then we just started gaining hundreds of thousands of users per week and the biggest the biggest challenge that that was like

was spam basically so we became a Honeypot our users became like a Target and we had to build all this spam infrastructure and trust and safety infrastructure that took us you know many months um so now we have an awesome support team I think one of the best in this in the industry honestly I I heard you guys call metamask the support for ethereum we feel very much the same way about fans the support desk um so we built all that and we can get into this later but we also uh and Brandon touch on that a little bit but we got it we we partnered we actually incubated a company called blowfish that builds this it's sort of like a

transaction firewall a transaction transaction antivirus service so uh instead of having this um you know don't trust verify contract which is what it is today on metamask and other wallets where you're expected sure there's some information surface but at the end your you as a user are expected to make the final call about whether to execute the transaction whether it's safe or not uh we try to take some of the responsibility there now and we'll actually tell you whether you know what we think about it so if we see something suspicious with the transaction we'll actually flag it and we still let you like click through and submit it so we're not like blocking anything but we just try to inform you in the best way

that we can about that I think that is is a super important part of what we did too yeah there's a definitely like a philosophical Choice here right metamask is uh very is it's built with a very intentional philosophy about like user first it doesn't it wants to be kind of like bare metal bare minimum uh and really just push all power and control to the user but a lot of modern users are like well can you kind of take care of me though can you kind of like you know if you tell me that if can you tell me that this transaction I'm about to sign will drain my wallet even if that is a uh you know a pop-up that perhaps is a political choice there's a lot of philosophy there so maybe that's something to keep in mind well we we go

through the wallet and see some of the features that like there's actually like you know I know like Dan Finley is kind of a at metamask he's kind of a philosopher type and has very strong opinions about how while it should get built so maybe we can we can talk about that as we go through the wallet but guys uh I'd love to see it because I'll totally admit I'm about to be embarrassed by the YouTube chat here I actually personally have not seen the Phantom wallet uh can we whip out some images so I can kind of get my eyes on it well we have a demo view on images or a demo demo demo wait wait what does the chat want David yeah I'm sure I'm sure the chat wants the demo I'll I'll speak for them because well there's a lag time so they're gonna see

this moment in about 10 seconds I'm giving the demo no matter what yeah all right what are we seeing here sharing my screen so and uh Brandon feel free to chime in here and whatever um what you're about to see is is the Phantom multi-chain beta build so this is not available to users yet it'll be available uh next week or two so no one's seen this no one has seen this this is an alpha League he said it hopefully said it wow these shows are great I should join them more often David um so if you want to sign up this you can sign up at phantom.app slash waitlist by the way um yeah let's get started so I'll use

this backless background because it's way nicer I agree and uh anything anything you want to say Brandon before I open no yeah go for it one one challenge so is if as we're going we should you could say a few things because there's going to be some people that are actually listening to this in podcast form I remind you like YouTube Bankers comes on YouTube and also Spotify has a video version of this um but if you could as you're going Francesco kind of just describe a little a little bit for people who don't know the visual in front of them foreign before we get started is that yeah we're going through the browser extension version but everything that you see here

is also available uh as a mobile app on both uh IOS and Android as well sweet correct okay so I'm just unlocking my Phantom wallet and bam we're in so the first thing you'll notice is um that you see ethereum Solana and polygon All in One account so that is how we're modeling uh multi-chain Phantom so there's this concept of quote-unquote multi-chain accounts so instead of instead of having to switch between a Solana account and ethereum account or a polygon account you sort of have them have these Blended views and we try to abstract the underlying chain as much as possible

um so if you hover over the copy tooltip you'll actually see all three addresses and of course the ethereum polygon polygon ones are the same but we don't we try not to make any assumptions about what our users know um so it's tempting to have like an evm row here or something but I think as we add more change we'll be very explicit about you know what your address is on an evm chain even though it's like the same um so you'll never see like this evm concept in here really you'll just see like ethereum polygon and whatever whatever other chain of support um that's it for the home screen uh Brandon I'll let you chime in if you want to say something

yeah right yeah that's pretty much it this is this is the home screen like Francesco uh mentioned yeah we sort of as a user you have you have an account uh each account has a as a grouping of addresses uh which may be a slightly different concept uh someone who's familiar with metamask where they just sort of have one address per account but this mental model is actually not so different from what you might expect from an experience on coinbase for example and so what do you mean by an account so I get like so okay let's say I have um let's say I have like uh five ethereum addresses public ethereum dresses and then I have like you know five others on polygon um those are the addresses what's what's

the account is the they count the one thing that I have with Phantom what's kind of the account level that you're aggregating yeah about accounts is always interesting so typically in a wallet you'd call these addresses accounts so I believe metamask calls them that as well right yeah yeah um so we're just calling them multi-chain accounts so it's sort of this as Brandon said this this grouping of addresses across all the chains is one account in Phantom so if you have if you have five polygon addresses that you want to import so that's going to be another important thing to say say you have a uh a seed phrase with a bunch of beef addresses on it you'll be able to import those into Phantom and you'd still have your five

etherdresses be imported and you'll be able to switch between them but each of those accounts each of those single chain accounts will have been magically multi-chainified and they will have corresponding Solana accounts as well corresponding Solana accounts as well I might be getting a little bit into the weeds but um maybe we need to see more to see how this works yeah yeah okay one question I have for you on this interface here is like all right so we got some ether on ethereum we got some soul on Solana we got some Matic on polygon but Matic I actually I could actually send that to the ethereum layer one so if I had Matic on my ethereum address would that how would that be displayed here yeah so we you know we support all

polygon on ethereum erc20s too so all tokens show up here okay and how they're aggregated form right in an aggregated form oh that's that's a great question actually so right how do I know what network they're on is the question so I don't happen to have any other tokens in this wallet except for spam tokens which I will unhide just to show you this oh cool but they're all in Solana but this should be good enough for you so like quality tokens flip.gg so so that is a good question so for for Native assets we we sort of just have these uh one-off icons but for any other asset we'll show you yeah kind of the asset perfect oh that's smart love it so you can expect polygon logo when

you're hearing logo here as well very smart so so if you had it on both chains it would show you both logos correct if you have it on five chains solve five logos we have some ideas about like you know usdc's across a lot of chains and being able to click in and then seeing so like this aggregated balance view but we we have not got a lot of ideas around that but haven't done it yet okay okay got it cool um I think it's time to move on to the nft tab all right we're going to get at some point in this conversation um into like when is this actually going to arrive right because we're in beta version you guys haven't deployed but that's on everyone's mind you have to answer it now I wanna we want to tease

people and uh but um yes be thinking about your answer for that because we're going to ask we have an answer okay but we're also happy to tease the audience if you like all right yep tease cool so moving into the nft tab so I will say this is one differentiator between us and metamask on the extension at least um let me show nfts um so I have several hundred nfts in here um you can click into the collection so this is the pop heads collection on slana then click again to see the actual nft um we actually added so a lot of these

features are not even available to Solano users so we rewrote we rewrote the app completely for multi-chain Wow which maybe answered your question about why I took this so long too um like what would uh what would the list button do here so you can actually list this magic Eden so with um well is Magic eating is now on ethereum are they moving to ethereum so maybe that's another important uh concept is this in the same way as the Home tab this is a blended view of your nft so um so these are just happened to tease these are solid nfts right now we will buy an Ethernet on this call on this call okay do we have a recommendation

because you sound nfts do you guys do sound nfts they could buy into the bankless collection David you might as well uh I I do like how you can list a an nft straight from the wallet that is probably a fantastic user experience how to expect people to uh to ignore like people to expect to just to have so okay so it tells you what the floor price and tells you the original purchase price and so see one here's a philosophical choice that I'm seeing here you have the ability to list an nft straight from the wallet on a specific marketplace right so this is a choice that Phantom wallet has made on its users about a particular

nft Marketplace that it has chosen to be the place to go uh can you talk about a little bit of that uh why why that choice right because if uh if I wanted to put on Michael my open source Maxi hat I would say like you guys are making a king maker out of magic Eden by Just Right routing the nft liquidity there can you talk about that choice yeah I can talk a little bit about that um so yeah it's important to note that you know there's the experience that you have inside the walls of the wallet but then there's also the experience of browsing any web3 application you want outside of the wallet and so um even though we provide a lot of interesting convenience features in the wallet you can always bring your wallet

around you with you to any application you want whether that's openc or blur or something else and use them there but we do offer certain convenience things directly into the wallet um and yeah I'd say the choice that we made there is is mostly around sort of Safety and Security so when we put something directly into the wallet we're basically making an implicit uh guarantee around uh you know the Safety and Security of that and so we don't want to add any random Marketplace that shows up we actually do want to make sure we vet um the marketplace the team integration Etc before we say okay this is safe for

users is that tied into your business model at all like is that kind of like do you get a referral commission is that part of how you monetize this thing because like a wallet is free but of course like metamask for example monetize it in various ways right they have like kind of a liquidity provider they take a portion of fees is there something like that about Phantom that just uh people should be generally familiar with yeah so on the third tab there we do have an in uh wallet swapper which is very similar to metamask and like metamask we uh basically take a fee on certain pairs uh when you trade there that's sort of described when you are sort of checking out um

so yeah I mean I think the business model is something that we're still everyone's figuring out in the wallet space but the way that works but like the nft listing you're not receiving any Commission on if you listed on uh Magic Eden versus openc or something is that correct not the moment uh but it's something that uh actions that we take basically the way we think about is that we want to bring the best of ecosystems directly into the wall at the best of different verbs or actions that you'd like to take and all those are potential um potential um yeah surface areas where we can like add a convenience fee or or do something are there plans to integrate openc uh no concrete plans at the moment but

also no concrete blockers just uh just a matter of prioritization yeah okay well it's worth this this feature was designed if there's a way that we can support multiple providers it just so happens that magic media is extremely dominant on Solana so we decided to go with them first well that's cool so nfts in the browser in the extension of course all of this is is the same user experience really but very similar so these are all these are all nfts that you own can you also browse nfts broadly or only the ones that you own right now it's only the ones that you own okay uh on the mobile experience we have uh we have a fifth tab which is the um browser and we used to surface some

recommendations in there but of course Apple wasn't happy about that so we can get it for that too but um you know it's basically yours only yours if you scroll down there you can actually see that there's an ens in here as well maybe oh there is yeah yeah so we have this phantomvault.e uh ens in there that is cool Okay so we've gone through kind of two tabs at the high level is there anything else on the other thing to call out is uh I think one thing we've learned um is that a lot of nft experiences are designed around especially in wallets or does it feels like they're designed around users having maybe hundreds

uh or tens or hundreds of nfts but we just find that our users have thousands so what yeah so that's actually pretty common and um and there's a whole bunch of reasons why that's challenging for us but one one way one reason or and for them as well so like that's why we added search uh we also so this will show you um like you're easily able to navigate to the specific nft that you own um and we also have like a we have a lot of management features as well that'll be coming out so you can pin the collections you want to surface bring those to the top of your of your Collectibles tab you can hide the collection if you

you know don't want to see it um you can report it as fast so we've added a lot of you know given that our users have literally thousands of FPS we've we've uh added features to help them manage them um because it can be can be really hard just to even find your FTE if you don't have this right that's really good guys yeah that's that's an important note that I want to double click on is that um sort of our experience on Salon has been really interesting because we've sort of we've seen I've taken a peek into the future of what an ultra low fee environment looks like yeah um and the different types of issues and problems that appear there um and yeah basically tldr is that um people love to collect a lot of nfts

um so yeah most a lot of users actually have thousands of nfts and some some users each actually also have hundreds of wallets that they manage with that's what I think is cool it's like back to kind of philosophies of you know metamaster ethereum main chains expanding outward right whereas you guys uh started as like uh in the theorem world you might call like a side chain or a different chain the Solana ecosystem and now you're expanding expanding in and that gives you like the whole experience in Solana over the past you know 18 months has got to be like ethereum on steroids basically right and um so you've solved some of those problems you've already you know started to think about multi-chain and um it really I think it like primes you

guys to go like because the multi-chain thesis is correct um like I think that's been like shown it's correct now there's still some question as to whether they'll be like dominant settlement layers versus a world of many side chains and so we've talked about this on Bank list for listeners right it's like kind of like the ethereum one settlement layer and a whole bunch of layer twos and the cosmos everything's an app chain sort of notion and maybe there's some probably space in between where they kind of like uh converge but um both of those Visions are multi-chain to be clear right like even in ethereum with Layer Two is you're gonna have arbitrum and polygon and optimism and all the ZK sync uh ZK providers as well and so because you've

already designed around that that that allows you to kind of expand uh quicker so I guess maybe I'm kind of leading up to uh rather than a statement maybe sort of like a question does this all make a layer 2 expansion fairly easy because now you're all in a you're in a straight evm world and you started with with kind of polygon but like it's got to be I don't know like you tell me you're this you're you're the CTO Francesca so so correct me if I'm wrong but it's got to be once you're here in ethereum land and evm pretty easy to sort of scale this out across other layer twos somewhat um we uh so I I think you're you're right in that we were able to solve the harder problem up front which is to support a non-evm

chain and an evm chain at once and it is in this case two evm chains and one not evm uh because that's that's a lot harder than it is just to support multiple evm chains um and so we are really well positioned to add support for arbitrary and Avalanche uh you know l2s what have you but I will say that it's not as easy as you think because our Integrations are actually very deep so you know even going back to the home page um we we actually uh show you unlike other wallets in many cases we show you all your tokens so like we have an index of like which tokens you own and make

sure to service those automatically you don't have to add it in the same way getting an ft data is quite challenging for new chains um supporting swapping for new for for on new chains is can be somewhat challenging transaction history same story so um I think there is it's it's really easy for us now to to add support for new chains and like a shallower shallower way so like this like Progressive enhancement uh graceful degradation concept that you saw in browsers in the early days too so we have that we have that sort of concept uh but you know so it's really important to think about like this degree of support concept um it's definitely easy for us to like have light support but the the lifts

required to actually add all these features for a new chain is is uh non-trivial there's something that you said uh Francesco about how you got you Phantom got a taste of like a what a low fee blockchain looks like uh and it's always been mine and Ryan's philosophy that like the economics of a monolithic blockchain are unsustainable um but again we don't have to go into that but like Solana I think what what I got out of that is like Solana during its height of the bull run really got a taste of the future right it was ahead of the game uh what happens when there are zero fees you see a Cambrian explosion of more nfts more collection and so like to me this this wallet whoever whoever's wallet this is with a

bajillion nfts in it is a taste of the future you're muted Ryan uh is a taste of the future right where I expect everyone to have thousands of nfts across so many different ecosystems for whatever reasons that is the web 3 future that I envisioned for the world Solana got there first because of the low fees whether or not monolithic chains can are sustainable is a different story but we are going to see chains with basically zero fees for users in the long term the crypto World whatever your thesis is it will converge upon that so like I mean thousands of nfts David this sounds like deep like ever or people people just get addicted to this stuff well I mean that's the real problem well I don't I wouldn't think of like thousands of Collectibles but like we got uh we got a

playing card here right like so so rare and they're all your metaverse property that yes exactly your your swords you're playing cards you're Pokemon you're whatever you want you're any like we the whole point about crypto is that we get to make Assets Now that's our power that's our superpower that we have and now we get to explore that Frontier of what assets can we make that are cool to make and so like and it turns out people want thousands of them yes exactly not just like not not just like a crypto Punk and a crypto dick butt which is me but like you know all assets all the assets and so we need a wallet that can contain all of the assets yeah yes that's correct it's actually really bad on polygon too like you you can't really do

anything on polygon without receiving a Spam nft yeah um yeah spam nfts I think is is yeah the dark side of that coin safety discussion uh yeah there's a bunch of stuff that I still want to talk about there's that uh the chat is asking win Phantom token so I guess I'll have to ask that token but uh first guys we have to cut to sponsors to help thank all these sponsors to help us go bankless in all of my years in crypto I've never been hacked scammed or lost money to a thief and a lot of that credit goes to my ledger Hardware wallet the love your Nano X and The Ledger Nano S Plus Hardware wallets allow users like

you and me to secure and manage all of our crypto assets and our nfts all with the security of storing users private Keys offline and Out Of Reach from hackers The Ledger Nano X is the perfect Hardware wallet for managing your crypto and nfts on the go because it connects to your phone with Bluetooth and has a nice big screen for easy transaction readings Ledger has also upgraded the iconic Ledger Nano s and made the new Ledger Nano s device more defy and nft friendly making it the perfect Hardware wallet for beginners Ledger has truly maximized for both of use and security so discover which Ledger device is best suited for your journey by going and visiting shop.ledger.com if you've been listening to bank lists you know that we're fans of the modular blockchain thesis the idea that blockchains will separate

execution from data availability and consensus allowing all three to become the best versions of themselves and fuel has built the fastest modular execution layer in the industry by supporting parallel transaction execution fuel unlocks significantly faster throughput for the webview world fuel also goes beyond the limitations of the evm with its own fuel VM which is more efficient and optimized opening up the design space for developers and lastly fuel brings a powerful developer experience with its own domain-specific language Sway and a supportive tool chain called fork with fuel you can have the benefits of smart contract languages like solidity while adopting the improvements made by the rust tooling ecosystem letting the fuel development environment go beyond the limitations of the evm if

you want to learn more there's a link in the show notes to see how you can get involved with a fuel Network the layer 2 era is Upon Us ethereum's layer 2 ecosystem is growing every day and we need layer 2 Bridges to be fast and efficient in order to live a layer to life a cross is the fastest cheapest and most secure cross train bridge with a cross you don't have to worry about high fees or long wait times assets are bridged and available for use almost instantaneously across his bridges are powered by uma's optimistic Oracle to securely transfer tokens between layer twos and ethereum across its critical ecosystem infrastructure and across V2 has just launched their new version focuses on higher Capital efficiency layer 2 to layer 2 transfers and a brand new chain with polygon all while prioritizing high security and low fees

you can be a part of a cross's story by droning their Discord and using a cross for all of your layer 2 transferring needs so go to across.to to quickly and securely Bridge your assets between ethereum optimism polygon arbitrum or Boba Networks all right banklustation we are back with a brand new spiffy Phantom wallet and now we're going to start pressing some buttons I think uh we're gonna press some buttons in the Phantom wall I think we might buy some nfts uh guys what buttons should we press first let's do it wow that's right yeah that that's the big question is which one we going we going big we going little yeah we're buying a crypto Punk right we we've we came prepared we have um five almost six to spend six eat to spend I

dare we ask the chat how much of a delay is there between uh the feed and the chat about 10 seconds yeah 10 seconds all right so if we ask chat what nft should we buy oh they're gonna they're gonna come running yeah okay let's we should tweet it out what let me tweet something out actually live we are live we have five you're not gonna spend it all budget budget your marketing budget guys um let's see I'm in a live tweet this well you work on that we can talk about um how it works I guess yeah that's nice about how it works yeah sorry so we're on blur so blur is a you know uh you've an ft Marketplace or aggregator

um So currently you have to we're like compatible with these metamask connect buttons uh we are working with people across the ecosystem like the various uh wallet connect modal solutions to add ourselves um and we we expect to be in a lot of them when we launch but right now I'm going to click metamask it works that's tight how does that work what happens if you also have metamask loaded up though it's a good question um so it's there isn't isn't actually a good standard on for this so uh I believe it's the it's the extension you install uh second that dominates so wait you guys hijacked the metamask

button this is pretty common practice actually um wow that's cool we we might add an affordance we don't want to ruin the experience right I mean you should be able to use what you want to use um and to and to be clear if metamask is installed after Phantom metamask does that the Phantom right right um and so there are affordances around like you know being letting you choose uh but they're not really we haven't really built them yet so um so yeah you can see increased interconnect experience I'm signed in um oh there's Tim ferriss's nfts well you guys figure out which one to

buy we can just show you this transaction simulation feature so uh it might be too small on the screen but I'm going to click buy now on this floor pudgy penguin 4.5 G4 is at four good for the pink and uh yeah so this is actually the same experience that our Solana users are accustomed to so we make it pretty simple we just show you like what you're receiving and what you're sending or what you're paying for it so it says pudgy penguin number 2722 and then it shows you in red that you're you know paying 4.23 East for it um so this seems simple but there's a lot going on behind the scenes

so the transaction is sort of being this transaction in the origin as well as sort of being stand to make sure there's no Mal intent it's making sure the website is in the scan website it's making sure there's not uh attempts to like curtail the simulation so like get away with simulation um there's all this analysis going on in the background and if it had been a malicious transaction you would get this big red warning that says hey something's up you may want to think twice about approving this so I don't Brad if you want to add anything maybe some stats about how many people we save yeah so this is an interesting one something that we're pretty proud of

so uh on so this uh like Francisco said this feature is live on the salon ecosystem at the moment um and yeah it's actually having real impact so as of today uh we've actually saved users from over 18 000 wallet draining transactions wow 18 000 different instances where someone was about to get fished into sending all their nfts and tokens we were actually able to prevent those um and in the last 30 days alone uh We've saved 3 000 around 3 000 unique users um say it again for The Regulators how many is that yeah around 3 000 unique users and I mean that that's crazy because

the all of those users are very likely users that will never come back again if they get fished you know what I mean and so we're all trying so hard to you know bring all these users in um and yeah you know it's really up to everyone who's writing software in this space to provide like a safe and easy to use uh environment and so uh to kind of retain people here's another thing that's super important back to kind of philosophy for a second by the way I I tweeted this out guys and and put it in the bankless Discord so I'm getting some submissions and I don't know what Chad's saying about what nft we should buy but like from a philosophy perspective um okay part of the reason I think we got in the situation we did in 2022

where we trusted a whole bunch of centralizes exchanges and actors and we let SBF steal 16 billion dollars from crypto users in our industry is because we didn't have the tools in place to go bankless and some of that is on us okay not all of it but some of that is on us we've been trying to talk about education but when it it's very difficult to get your crypto from an exchange and to start using a wallet to the extent that that's difficult we will have money that is locked in centralized providers and we won't be able to actually live up to the full potential of this decentralized peer-to-teer peer money system like the

reason we're all here so we end up taking making compromises and sticking our funds into Celsius or a block fi because it's too hard not so to the extent that we are able to solve ux issues and keep it bankless that is truly how we scale this industry so I'm very bullish On Tools like this and this is like back to a theme look we can talk about FTX we're not doing a single FDX SPF episode this week right David and what we want to focus in on is how we actually rebuild this industry and tools like this are how we rebuild this industry on on bankless principles so I just want to hear from you guys again so this is a non-custodial wallet right no

one we're not giving up our private keys to any third party there's no Bankers in the middle there's no SPF there's no Alex machinski like in in your transaction set that you're trusting with your private keys this is completely bankless can you confirm that for me it works the same way as metamask it works fundamentally the same way as as a ledger Hardware wallet can you confirm that for me and talk about that for a minute yeah no definitely yeah consider that confirmed so yeah Phantom at its core is a non-custodial crypto wallet um that helps users self-manage their their crypto uh and not only not only store it and

um manage it safely but also do stuff with it safely um and so you know Phantom turns your browser your existing browser or existing um mobile phone into a crypto wallet and opens up a world of decentralized applications to users and that's that's kind of really one of the core Innovations of web3 is the the decentralized applications um and yeah we really are aiming to provide a safe and easy access to that um is this still seed phrase driven is there any kind of like social recovery type of aspect or is that kind of like Out Of Reach for now because that's another piece that's difficult for people smart contract wallets have tried to solve anything on that So currently the the key model is the

same as metamask and where there is a secret recovery phrase uh that lives at the heart of the wallet uh in which you can derive a number of different addresses uh we do support um Hardware wallets as well so you are similar to metamask you were able to plug in your Ledger and also save that as an entry that you can you can use um but yeah key key recovery and Key Management is definitely a huge area that we want to be innovating on in the future um yeah things like account abstraction um social recovery potentially smart contract wallets MPC etc those are those are all things that are on the table for sure uh and yeah we're looking forward

to pushing that forward all right David well I I think we bought us some time here we ready to uh put together a quick list of uh shopping lists yeah shopping list I've got a few from from my side I'm monitoring Discord and Twitter you have some to add yeah well so from the chat uh Pudgies have definitely come up uh crypto covens which I'm a huge fan of uh has come up in the chat uh moniverse space which I'm unfamiliar with um but if I could put my uh hat in the ring I would 100 be down to purchase a crypto dick pad [Laughter] let me throw in my shopping list uh and several people are typing as well um stonies not heard of Stoney's by

satoshi's mom um might be low price though maybe there's that um pudgy Penguins came up on my side yeah stonies are cheap okay that's the discount aisle we can shop in um podcast nfts because the bank list Community this is not a self-submission uh punch Tim Ferriss was recently on the podcast our nfts just came up there well yeah yeah you're you're right from here it's great [Music] um and then uh and then uh pulleys by the way of course all right pulleys are do you guys know police with a y uh Pooley oh puffers puffers yeah well so that's a pulley derivative

this is oh yeah but we should do the OG pulleys yeah I didn't find that one coming the reason is pulleys are cool because um it goes to like um cool together got a lawsuit and it goes to the defense fund that'd be one that'd be cool um Nars have you heard of this chain runners anyway we've got a few options here let's let's pick one or two okay we're getting greedy here buy all of our nfts we should do like relatively cheap ones right crypto um I can send some more Ethan if we're uh

no no save save your dollar your eth guys stake your eat don't spend it right my only ask is that it's a it's profile picture friendly because we're going to show off a personalization feature later all right well David I know a few people who have that as their pfp but without Shilling your bags what do you think makes the most sense here you're the nft project I think okay so uh mfers rcco uh pulleys are good for a good cause they're also cheap I vote pulleys uh puffers pfers pulley puffers the ones we're looking at right now yeah yeah does this go to a good cause too uh I don't know but the the pulley meme does all right you can buy a really nice one um I don't know that makes a difference

I have to I'm uh this one resonates with me oh yeah pink white your glasses yeah glasses are good I gotta have the glasses do it seems like a fair price so we're buying this on blur we're approving the transaction right now on the Phantom wallet and then we wait ending it's pending is that it's ethereum wallet this is from blur actually okay all right so yeah it's a good old-fashioned transaction where are the gas fees on this how much we spent I don't know six dollars six bucks and how much did we

burn no I'm kidding uh that's awesome just like that and now can we see it in the Phantom wallet so you can see the bounce went down we should probably search for it since we have we also our power user pulley I think pfer is what you want here they are great wow that happened so fast that populated so quickly so it indexes like automatically that's yeah pretty magical yeah since we just bought a brand new FMC we can also pin it so if you're in the top right pin it now if we go back to the our page it shows right at the top okay so cool all right do you guys do you guys do here's a challenge do you guys do um sound nfts

how would it how would it sound we we can we can play it it just won't appear the image won't appear okay right now well let's do it should we buy backless okay I'm not the only the only podcast nfts that exists yeah you're not saying we should though not saying that we shouldn't crypto Renaissance is solid uh a solid collectible all right for Josh Rosenthal this is great do you guys ever listen to this episode the crypto Renaissance episode yeah no not yet there's a reason why we started that one there you have a collectible it's just I'm not gonna say it's my favorite

was my favorite all right wow already done only four dollars four dollars but that must seem really high for you for you guys coming from uh the Beautiful Salon it is it is fractions of ascent on on something polygon yeah we just bought a uh sound nft podcast and nft the crypto renaissance man we just bought our own collectible while live streaming we're totally gonna get Liz warned well we didn't uh what's the name of it uh it was there be it just search b hey so yeah the preview actually shows up well I can play it for the audience oh wow the sound is coming through the sound's coming through yeah is everyone

hearing that or is it just us wait so this the yeah we're gonna drop the beat keep playing it so you guys are the Phantom wall is already music nft enabled that's correct wow I truly is happy now I made a return on it too but this tracks the returns from what Market is is feeding from I believe it's feeling from a few marketplaces this is this is the floor so if you were to sell the empty for the floor we just increased the floor by buying it so nice job and by being on the bankless podcast right this is so cool

well done guys thanks I just wanted to show off one final thing which is we bought this fully before gonna set it as our Avatar and what was that useful for that just shows you okay so you just know which wallet it is you can just make it more is my gaming wallet this is my nft collection wallet totally in your wallets burner addresses I think one of the hard things with multi-chain is um like there's a lot of addresses to manage actually and I think a lot of people rely on like skimming their their like raw dressed to know which wallet it is you know I have some memorized not like the full thing but like I know the four digits in the front the back yeah totally yeah exactly uh and that's

a bit harder when you're like have three addresses to One account um so we've gone like we've done a lot of user research and have gone pretty extend uh extensive likes to like make this easier so yeah using as many visual cues as you can so you can name it you can put set a profile picture to it just so you remember which one it is um super that's super good and I would remind folks like our analogy for uh an address uh crypto wallet address your public key it's basically like um it's your bank account number right like it's kind of and then you can you can put other property into it so it's almost like a bank fault but like how many of you know your your bank account number right that's on the bottom of a

checkbook that you have like nobody knows that you should that's the point you shouldn't have to it should be abstracted away from you um all right so now now it's the part where um we get to ask you guys the problem for everybody watching this episode uh is that this is not yet released but that will change and when is that going to change when is this going to be live on uh ethereum and polygon you have credit yeah so yeah pretty excited to say that in the next few weeks um 2022 Christmas yeah before what four holidays before the holidays right we

will have not live to everyone uh but we will have an experience where you can go and if you download the normal the production Phantom app you can enter in a beta code and sort of evolve it from a mono chain wallet to a multi-chain wallet uh and use it in this beta phase through the holidays Okay cool so let's be clear on what people need to do so they should go to the Phantom dot app waitlist site and follow us on Twitter because we'll be releasing the beta codes on Twitter too and then you release beta codes on Twitter do you have your beta code right now that you can release oh well we could they it's not actual right now though because we haven't

submitted okay okay can we just do a bank list code so that people don't even have to remember if they watch this episode and they listen to it then they could just go to this Phantom dot app slash waitlist and type in Bank list and they get this you can just make one up now it's like yes yeah so for sure we can do one that's called just bankless just bankless awesome and then they have to what are they downloading if they they do they have to hit the download button for it to convert um so you just download the normal your normal apps so nothing special and then there will be a beta code Redemption flow and uh just go from there and the app slash download guys I just got the Twitter bot notification that a

bank list nft was sold so thank you you're welcome supporting the show um no this is great um do we have to ask the is does the chat want to know anything else David uh is there going to be a phantom token ever yeah okay that's a good question something that we could talk about probably for for a while but in the uh short to medium term we don't have any plans to do a token okay um I can elaborate but um yeah I think that right now we're pretty much laser focused on making sure that the user experience is as safe and easy to use as possible uh before you know over complicating things so I think people

are a little uh tired yeah token fatigue for a while so uh that's perfectly okay we're in the we're in the build market now um not in the token market so uh guys thanks so much for for joining us I'm I'm really glad um this is great news for the entire crypto community and really excited to see uh that you guys are are coming back home as you said and deploying here I think this will expose it to a whole bunch more users uh so uh we appreciate you sharing this with us yeah thanks so much Ryan and David it was a lot of fun do we end with the alpha Leak with the regular stuff uh yes yes you say those uh yeah I do do you want to say them

then uh no I don't have them in front of me so you have I kind of want you to do it from memory risk and disclaimers bankless Nation this is the frontier it's not for everyone crypto is risky D5 is risky I'll do this in a slightly different order uh but we are glad you are with us on the bank list Journey uh thanks a lot and cheers guys well done David foreign