Peter Schiff on gold versus Bitcoin

Transcript

I mean, I've been uh talking about the the top that Bitcoin has been forming pretty much over the last four years, and I I think it is a a major top. GMGM, good morning, and welcome to the Milk Road Show, the daily crypto show where long-term vision meets short-term volatility, and we try to sound calm about it. I'm your host, LG Set, joined by my co-host, Kyle Reedhead. Today is Friday, October 31st, 2025. Although we are recording this the day before to today we're joined by Peter Schiff, a man who called the economic collapse of 2008. He is a massive gold maxi but a Bitcoin skeptic so the conversation will be very interesting. We are on the eve of who knows what kind of financial turmoil. I don't know what's going to

happen tomorrow or the next couple months. Uh and Peter will definitely have some very strong opinions on it. He's perpetually bearish on crypto and Bitcoin. He thinks gold is the place to go. uh and we're going to hear about it and we also just want to know what he thinks going to is going to go well in the economy going forward. What he thinks should be done, what he thinks should be done differently. And before we start, just want to send you guys if you guys are doing any um kind of transactions today, use Milkro Swap. Listen, it's it's the tool that we've built. You can seamlessly trade on Ethereum based, arbitum, whatever you want. Uh and you've got some really fantastic fees there. So, if you're making any trades into stables or in out of stables, whatever you're doing, check that out. Today's episode is brought to

you by Gemini Credit Card. Turn your everyday spending into Bitcoin stack sats without even thinking about it. Bridge power your business with instant stable coin payments. No friction, no banks. Just global finance made simple and figure markets. Earn solid returns on your cash because sitting idle isn't a strategy. Here he is. Let's get him in here. Peter, there he is. Peter, what's going on, man? Good to see you. Uh, thank you for coming on the Milk Road Show. >> You know, I forgot that you guys were crypto podcast. So, uh, you know, you ought to you got to change the name from milk to spilt milk.

>> Um, and and [laughter] then you you can't cry over that, right? So the >> it's going to be fun. [laughter] >> Rotten milk. >> I haven't always been um bearish on crypto on a daily basis. I mean, I mean, I've been bearish about it, you know, conceptually since I, you know, first learned about it because I thought it was just, you know, worthless. But there have been periods of time along the way where just from a technical perspective, I've I've thought the market would go up before it went down. This is just not one of those times. I mean, I've been uh talking about the the top that Bitcoin has been forming pretty much over the last four years, and I I think it is a a

major top. uh it's it's taking a while to play out, but you know, Bitcoin really peaked out in November of 2021 priced in gold. And that's how I I like to look at it, especially since Bitcoin uh you know is being marketed as a digital version of gold. Even though I take a lot of issue with that comparison, but that's how it's marketed. That's that's the meme associated with Bitcoin. And so if you price Bitcoin and gold, it's actually in a bare market. It's more than 20% below where it was 4 years ago. And even though nominally Bitcoin made a new high in August and in fact took out the high price in gold by about 1 or 2%, as soon

as it did that, it completely collapsed. So there's a lot of resistance in Bitcoin. There's been a lot of distribution. A lot of the big insiders, I think, have been unloading their tokens. A lot of them I think uh gave a lot of money to, you know, politicians, Donald Trump, in order to get a lot of hype that would enable them to sell even more of their their tokens. In fact, the president and his family cashed in on hundreds of millions of dollars on [clears throat] crypto hype uh right after he got elected. But also, if you look at the crypto stocks, they're getting obliterated. Some of the stocks that went public earlier this year are just down 50% or more from where they

were just a couple of months ago. You know, the poster boy of crypto, um, you know, micro strategy or strategy, although I I joke they should they should change the name to micro that would have been a better word to keep to describe what's going to happen to the stock price. Uh, but strategy is now down more than 50% from where it was at, you know, in November. Uh so it seems to me that there's a lot of warning signs that uh you know the bloom is coming off the crypto tulip and um people are ignoring that.

>> Okay. Well, we're going to come back to a lot of these numbers in just a second. You came in hot. We didn't even ask a question yet. But we've got beef obviously, [laughter] but we have even more beef than I think people understand. Jay or LG and I are actually Canadians uh from Toronto. And what did Peter Schiff? So, you think the the the Bitcoin thing is bad? What did What did uh what did Schiff uh tweet? Was it today? Yesterday. >> You want to lead with this? You >> got We got to have it. Okay, I got to pull it up. I'll pull it up. Here it is. Here we go. It's time. And this is This wasn't even yet This was on uh Tuesday.

This was on This was on Tuesday's game. So, game four. It's time for Trump to hit the Blue Jays with an emergency 100% reciprocal tariff. I mean, most of the players are Americans anyways on the Jays. [laughter] Well, I I I know that, but you know, I I posted that right after that two-run homer, and that's when um the the Blue Jays took the lead for good after that. >> Um and of course, they they had a decisive win last night, so now they're they're coming home. Um but yeah, I was just, you know, joking with Trump because he doesn't really understand tariffs. you know, he he threatened to put tariffs on foreign films. So, I figured why not foreign sports teams to protect the the local teams, but you

know, I spoke about it again on my podcast last night. But [snorts] I also pointed out that the Dodgers have like three Japanese pitchers on their roster. So, I thought that maybe the Blue Jays were a more American team than the uh than the Dodgers. But I also but I said that maybe we should have a tariff on foreign players. So if a ball club like the Dodgers wants to bring somebody in from Japan to take away the job of an American pitcher, right? They got to have to pay a tariff, right? We got to protect our our boys. Why should we have to compete with the Japanese? You know, I mean, they're already they're already paying pretty big premiums to bring those guys over anyways. [laughter] >> I'm sure you could take a little cut of

that. I mean I mean Okay, hold on. Okay, let's just let's just wrap up the baseball for one quick second then we can actually talk about final Peter. What do you think is going to happen game six and or seven? What's in Toronto? What's your outlook for the rest of >> I mean the way Toronto's been playing if they were able to win uh two in a row you know in LA I mean you figure they're going to win back in Toronto. So I think with the Blue Jays is that they won one time in the past. Was that it some >> twice? Back to back. >> Twice back to back. That's right. Right. Right. But when was that in the 90s? 92 93 92.

>> Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I guess you know I don't think Trump's going to be too happy though about about that if uh [laughter] >> All right. >> So, I think I there probably will be some tariffs. You know, >> I I'll tell you right now that there's actually a lot of I think there's a a good amount of players on the Jays that would actually love to go to the White House. And I don't I actually don't know how that works. I don't know how that works anymore, Kyle, because in the NHL, our Canadian team also hasn't won in 30 years. So, I don't know if the if they go to the White House or if they go >> Well, the Raptors won like uh >> Did they go to the White House or did they go see Trudeau? >> I think they went to the White House. I

don't know. >> Did they go see Trudeau? >> Let's go Blue Jays. Big big time. We got two games. We just need one win. >> I used to I used to be a bigger Dodger fan because I I lived in LA for quite some time back long time ago. >> And what happened? You just you dropped off? >> Well, I mean, I haven't lived there in a long time and I kind of >> just not as interested. Yeah. [laughter] Did you know you can earn Bitcoin without ever buying it? That's where the Gemini credit card comes in. Here's how it works. Earn up to 4% back in Bitcoin on gas, transit, and ride share. 3% on dining, 2% on groceries, and 1% on everything else. Use it just like any other credit card, and you're building a crypto portfolio at the same time. The best part, the Gemini credit card has no

annual fee and works anywhere Mastercard is accepted. When you're approved and spend 3,000 in the first 90 days, you'll get a $200 Bitcoin bonus. Spend as usual, earn Bitcoin instead at milkroad.com/gemini. Stable coins are the biggest use case in crypto right now. But let's be real, using them on chain is still way too complex. That's exactly the problem Bridge is solving. Recently acquired by Stripe, yep, that's Stripe, Bridge helps businesses send, store, accept, and launch stable coins instantly. Explore the future of global financial infrastructure at milkroad.com/bridge.

>> Yesterday, Jerome Pal saying that a rate cut, a later rate cut this year, nothing guaranteed or I'm not sure his exact words for. I believe that you're against a rate cut so far and you think that um quantitative tightening should continue. Give us your perspective there. >> Yeah. Well, I the Fed never should have stopped hiking. They they they they stopped prematurely. I think what caused the Fed to stop hiking was the bank bankruptcies of Silicon Valley Bank, uh, Signature Bank, uh, there was a third one, forget the name, but I think the Fed was afraid that if it kept hiking, more banks would would fail. And so I think that's the real reason that they stopped. And uh, and now they're cutting. But the Fed never really got

monetary policy restrictive. And the Fed still claims that policy is moderately restrictive. Now, it's not it's still too loose. The way you know that is to look at credit growth, right? Because inflation is the expansion of money and credit. And the entire time the Fed was raising rates, credit continued to expand. Consumers kept borrowing more money. Household debt hit new record highs. Credit card debt hit new record highs. Government debt exploded. That tells you that interest rates were too low. They weren't high enough to slow down the credit growth. That's what the Fed needed to do is rein in that uh consumption that was fueled by by credit. Instead, people continue to

borrow and spend. The government continue to borrow and spend because monetary policy never got tight. Uh and and now uh he's cutting even more. And you know, if you look at where the Fed funds rate is now, it's just below 4%. The CPI is running at 3%. So, you're talking about 1% rates, assuming you believe the 3% CPI, which I don't. I think that you have to at least double the official inflation rate to get close to the real rate. So, if the government is telling us inflation is three, it's six. If inflation is six and the Fed funds is four, you got negative rates.

By what definition is the Fed being restrictive when people are being paid to borrow money? Uh, you know, policy rates seem to be much much higher. Uh, you know, in in Vulkar in in 1980, short-term rates got to 20%. That was more than double the inflation rate at the time, and we measured it a lot more honestly back then than we do now. So, you know, we're nowhere near restrictive. And so, that's why we've had this expansion. money supply growth continues to expand uh and it's going to expand even faster now without quantitative tightening. Uh so you know the Fed is throwing gasoline on the inflation fire that it lit. So this is clearly a policy mistake. I mean gold

knows it's a mistake. That's why gold got above 4,000. Uh it's because uh the Fed is making these mistakes. That's why the world is getting rid of dollars, right? because they can see what the Fed is going to do and so they want out. You know, they don't want to hold our currency. They don't want to hold our bonds. They want to hold something that we can't print and that's gold. And also something that we can't sanction. You know, if a foreign central bank or foreign government owns gold and it has it in a vault within its own borders, we can't touch it. We can't debase it. We can't sanction it. We can't do anything.

And so that's where the world is headed. Yeah. >> Is is [clears throat] the reason that you want rates higher, you think that rates should be higher, is because you're concerned that inflation is going to go much higher than it is today? >> Well, it is going to go much higher. But look, rates need to be higher because they're too low. I mean, we're >> people just say that, but like why what is the issue? Like what is what are you afraid of if if rates are low? >> Well, we're concerned interest Well, interest rates are the price of borrowing money.

And prices are supposed to be determined by supply and demand, not by a government pallet bureau, not by some guys and gals in a back room who meet and decide what the rate should be, right? The market should discover it based on supply and demand. So if you look at America, what when it comes to the price of borrowed money, what is the supply? The supply is savings, right? How much have we saved, right? How much money are Americans socking away in the bank? Right? That's the supply of savings.

Where where's the demand coming from? That's businesses, governments, and consumers who want to borrow money to build a plant, make, you know, a real loan uh uh buy property, finance a car, buy stuff on a credit card, uh fund government budget deficits. Well, in America, we have more borrowing than ever before and less savings. So, we have massive demand for credit and minimal supply of credit. So, in that environment where you have very low supply and enormous demand, where should price be, right?

Which should the price should be high, right? But instead, interest rates are low. 4% is a low rate. So, the market would have a much higher rate of interest. And what would a higher rate of interest do? It would cause more people to save and fewer people to borrow. And that would help with the imbalances. That would help bring up our savings rate, which is what we need. It would curtail borrowing and consumption that's financed by debt. And if we had more savings, we could have more capital investment so that we can build the factories necessary to make the products that we now import uh from the rest of

the world. So uh higher interest rates is part of the cure for what ails us. All of the problems that Donald Trump is worried about and and says he's going to solve with tariffs have all been caused by artificially low interest rates. Yet what Trump wants to do is take the low rates that we have and make them even lower. So he wants to uh basically give us more of the toxic monetary heroin that is the reason the country is so sick and is the reason that he got elected twice uh because the voters want somebody to fix the problem. Yet all Trump wants to do is make it worse uh by, you know, by by pursuing the same

policies that caused the problem uh that the voters, you know, don't understand the cause. They are just living with uh the results and the symptoms of it. So, we need higher interest rates, but we're not going to get higher interest rates, >> you know, because higher in >> Yeah. Higher interest rates, even though they are in the long-term best interest of the country, in the short run, it will create a lot of problems for a lot of people and a lot of losses because higher interest rates will lead to bankruptcies defaults uh layoffs, uh recession, all this stuff has to happen. And if allowed to happen, it's all ultimately a positive for the

long-term health of the economy. But no politician wants to live through that, you know, to get to the promised land. They don't they don't they don't want to have to deal with it. And so we never really have uh a cleansing recession to uh basically eliminate all these mistakes and malinvestments. and lay a foundation for solid economic growth. We just keep on uh juicing the economy with more of this monetary heroin and kicking the can down the road. Um and so, you know, we've been doing that for a long time and eventually we can't do it anymore. And I think what we're seeing now in the gold market is a sign that, you know, we've

run out of road here and the world is not going to subsidize this profily anymore. And so we're not going to be able to keep borrowing money and printing money uh without destroying the currency, without destroying the bond market. And I think that's where we're headed. >> I think so. Actually, I I fully agree with everything you said. I think they're not going to go through that tough time because not only because it's not just a tough time, it it is literally like think about the aging population in the US. It's a it's a fairly old population, an unproductive population, a retired population. a lot of them they're not getting through that right and so you you literally can't do this I don't think because if you do that they're not saving more you can put rates to whatever you want and it

doesn't like everyone that's retired they're not going to save more money than they save today it's not going to change a thing for all them but they're going to get decimated because their house which is the only thing they own and their retirement savings are going to get completely rocked so like I think there's no way that we that ever happens we're going to have >> retired people are the ones that are going to be hurt the most by massive inflation so it's not like you're going to save the retirees by destroying the value of the money that they're hoping to retire on. Uh so probably the best thing we could do for them is to raise rates and allow, you know, allow prices to fall and preserve the value of the money because they may have pensions, uh there, you know, they have other sources

of income, uh annuities and things like that. Uh that at least those the value would be preserved. But I think it's going to get completely wiped out. I think we're going to have massive inflation and that's going to cut short the retirement of of most Americans, right? I mean, the only hope would be an AI productivity miracle, you know, and we'll see how quickly uh you know, AI can start increasing productivity to the point where it can offset this massive inflation. But, uh, you know, I I I don't think it's going to happen soon enough to to get us out of jail. Lots lots we want to unpack here and I'm glad you brought it back because we're going to get to that afterwards. Let's focus in on gold because obviously that's that's your thing. That's what you've

been focused on. Gold and I got to give my hats off to you. Gold is up something like 25% in the last two and a half months. It's up I think 55% year to date. Uh 120% in the last two years. So since October 2023, um it's been absolutely ripping. Your perspective, Peter, why is that? Why is it on an absolute tear? And who is buying gold right now? Well, well, you know, first of all, gold is not my only thing. It's just one of the things, you know, I I have an asset management company and we have an allocation to gold, but I understand what gold is. Most people have no idea what it what gold is.

>> Uh es especially the people in in the crypto community, they're completely clueless as to what gold is. They they think it's got no value. They they they confuse it with Bitcoin. U but gold is is real money. Uh most people don't use it as money today. uh but central banks do and gold is the most viable alternative to the US dollar. So, I think that back in the Biden administration when Joe Biden put the sanctions on Russia for the Ukraine war, [snorts] I think that was a a wakeup call, a long overdue wakeup call to the rest of the world that you're playing with fire holding US

dollars as your reserve because you're you're putting yourself in a very vulnerable position where if you piss off the US, you know, you're going to get sanctioned. and you're going to have, you know, the rub pulled out from under you on your reserves. So, I think that was a a a wakeup call to start divesting of dollars. And, you know, the world should have done this anyway just based on the enormity of our debts. You know, now we have 38 trillion of of of debt. Uh the debt is growing by 2 to three trillion a year. Uh you know, it's obviously unpayable. Soon it will be uncserviceable.

And so the world knows that if they if they hold our paper, they're going to get screwed. So they don't want it anymore. Um, so they've been buying. And I think that when Trump won, that was also a wakeup call. Uh, because Donald Trump ran on a platform and the Republicans ran that, hey, there was too much spending under the Democrats. They they ran up the debt, the inflation reduction act, these other acts. Uh we had inflation because of too much government spending. Uh we need to get Trump in office. We need to get Republicans so we can reverse uh

that we can cut back on the Biden era spending and you know you know make government smaller. And when Trump and the Republicans came to office, they did the opposite of that. They not only preserved all of the Biden spending that they criticized, they expanded on it. So the deficits that they inherited from Biden were made larger under Trump. And and so that really tells the world, look, there's no way America is ever going to get its fiscal house in order.

There is no appetite on either side of the aisle to reduce government spending to lower the deficits. And so if we continue to finance these deficits, we are going to get wiped out through inflation or you know just the dollar debasement. And so that's how the the the real ddollarization dollar debasement trade uh picked up uh up the pace. And you have more and more central banks now uh who who could read the writing on the wall and and they're getting out and you know a lot of people in the US are very complacent you know about the US dollar's status as the reserve currency because they think the

world is kind of stuck that they've got no place to go because you know the euro is no good the yen's no good the pound's no good right the R&B you know so the dollar wins by default, wear the cleanest, dirty shirt in the hamper, right? Well, my position has been you don't have to go to the hamper. You could just go to gold. Gold's not in the hamper at all. Gold, you know, smells great, right? It's pristine. It doesn't have any of the problems of any of these other currencies. And so, the world doesn't have to go to uh a euro standard to go off the dollar standard. It just has to go back to the gold standard

which served the world extremely well uh before it went on the dollar standard. And initially when the world agreed to accept the dollar as a reserve, it was because it was not only backed by gold but redeemable on demand in gold. So, you know, it wasn't until 1971 that we screwed everybody over and and and and you know, and defaulted. But, you know, 71 was when we went off the the the the gold standard. Now, the world is going off the dollar standard.

It's a process. It's not going to happen in one day. Like when Nixon said, you know, hey, no, no, you know, you can't get any any gold for your Federal Reserve notes. It's a process. I don't know how long it's going to take, but it's underway now. And that's why the price of gold is going up because central banks are going to keep buying it. but also individual investors, institutional investors, after years and years of completely ignoring gold, watching it go from under 300 to over 4,000. I mean, the gold has outperformed the S&P 500 so far this century. And in fact, if you go back to the the peak of the stock market during the tech.com bubble

in 1999, the Dow was worth 45 ounces of gold. Now it's worth about 11 or 12. So it's like a 70% decline in the Dow. So Wall Street is finally recognizing that, you know, assets are losing value relative to gold. cash is getting destroyed relative to gold. Uh and that people need to own gold and so investors are now just starting to incorporate some gold into their portfolios after having no gold in their portfolios at all for the prior you know 20 years or so. So this is just going to dramatically increase the

demand because uh you know central bank demand is going to continue. investor demand is just getting started and will grow over the years and you don't have a lot of new gold uh coming onto the market. There hasn't been a major discovery and I can't remember how long. Uh gold companies over the last 10 20 years have not invested heavily in exploration and development. So you're just not going to have a lot of new supply coming out of the mines. Uh but you're going to get a lot of demand uh from investors and central banks. So, you know, the market can only clear at higher prices and that's why they're going to keep going higher.

>> Peter, why are all the institutions buying Bitcoin? Why are they adding Bitcoin to their balance sheet that >> Well, they know this, too. >> Well, I there's a handful of companies that are doing that. I don't know the exact number, but you know, the majority of companies, right, Fortune 500 companies, they they don't have any Bitcoin on their balance sheet. They don't have any gold either, right? they they have they have cash. But there are a handful of companies that were putting Bitcoin on their balance sheet just like companies in the 1990s were just sticking on on the end of their name because when you announced that you were going to be a Bitcoin treasury company,

Bitcoin speculators rushed into your stock and bought it. And so it was a gimmick to try to get value. I mean like look what happened to David Bailey's company uh Nakamoto cuz he he you know because he jumped on that bandwagon. I was at the Bitcoin conference when they announced this stock. It was like 30 bucks when it came out over the summer you know in May in and it was all Bitcoin Treasury Company. The stock was $30. It's like 75 cents now. Right. But a lot of pe companies were jumping on this bandwagon because initially if you put Bitcoin on your balance sheet, let's say you spent $100 million buying Bitcoin, your stock might

go up by 500 million, a billion. Investors were willing to pay a lot more to buy a company that owns Bitcoin than they were to buy the Bitcoin, right? So that's why companies were doing it. But, you know, smart smarter people uh uh James Chim Chenos I know, you know, saw how ridiculous it was. So, he started buying Bitcoin and shorting Micro Strategy. That's going to be a winning trade. It probably already is a big winning trade for him right now, but I think he's got a lot more to profit on that because Bitcoin is not worth more just because you wrap it up in a Bitcoin treasury company. And as far as I'm concerned, it's worth less. Whatever Bitcoin is worth, it's worth more if you self-custody it than sticking with some

third party. I mean, that's the whole point of Bitcoin is to have it in your own wallet, not to have some third party holding it for you. Especially when they're levered up like like Micro Strategy. It can go bankrupt and and end up losing it or have to sell it into a void. You know, who knows where they're going to get margin called out and have to just dump all that Bitcoin onto the market. >> Um, so that's the reason people are doing it. It's it th those companies were just trying to jump on a bandwagon to make a quick buck, but I think all these companies are going to are going to go out of business. I mean, there there is no viable business in just buying Bitcoin. I mean, you're basically an ETF, right? So, if you want to buy a Bitcoin ETF, buy a Bitcoin ETF. No point

in buying Micro Strategy or any of these companies that are copycat Bitcoin Treasury companies. I mean, that's that's that the whole there's no business model there. Like, what's your business? We buy Bitcoin and we hold it. What the hell is that? Who the hell needs a company to do that? You can do it yourself. >> Okay, forget the treasury companies for a second. You know, it's funny, Peter, listening to you speak. Uh, we share a lot of the same ideals and thoughts around the market, right? Uh, in terms of like monetary policy is a mess, the political world is a mess, they're screwing everything up. Uh, a lot of people or a lot of countries, central banks want to leave the dollar. We want to get away from the dollar. I actually agree with all of these things. Uh and so and that really kicked off in October

as you mentioned. Um but why if gold is the best, why is Bitcoin up 400% since October 2023, but gold is only up 120% since October 2023. So if you if you're we agree on the same reason that people are leaving the dollar, however, the market tells you that Bitcoin is actually the better asset and there's more people going to that than there is gold. Look, look, at one point more people were buying Beanie Babies than gold. What the hell did that mean? Did that mean that Beanie Babies were better better than gold? I mean, look, Bitcoin was a fad, a mania, a a financial bubble. It's got nothing to do with gold. I mean, gold is kind of the way that it was hyped and sold, right?

Bitcoin is is the ultimate memecoin. What is the meme that drives Bitcoin? The meme is that it's digital gold. Of course, it's it's it's not digital gold at all. It's, you know, it's now, if you want to have digital gold, you can you can tokenize gold, right? You can have actual gold in a vault. >> The the the the custodian can issue >> tokens that represent ownership of that gold, just like Tether. Well, well, they have a gold token, but the the popular token is their dollar token, right?

where they hold dollars and they issue tokens that are backed by those dollars. So instead of using dollars, you use Tether which are backed by dollars and you could take them to Tether and get dollars, right? If you have whatever the minimum quantity is. Uh but they're a receipt for dollars where Tether is your custodian. Well, Tether also has gold and you can get a token that is backed by gold instead of backed by dollars. Now, for my money, if I was going to buy a token, that's the one I'd want, right?

That's a real stable coin because gold gives you stability. Dollars give you inflation. So, to >> Bitcoin gives you outsized returns, don't we want outsized returns? And Bitcoin gives you outsized returns. Isn't that what we're looking for as an investor? >> It depends. Bitcoin can give you upsized returns if a lot of fools want to buy it at a higher price than what you paid. But Bitcoin also gives you the possibility of getting completely wiped out, right? If the supply of fools runs out, that is that is the problem. You know, you're playing a big game of musical chairs. You know, I don't know when the bottom's going to drop out of this thing. I mean, I don't know when people who have convinced themselves that nothing is something are going to

realize that nothing is nothing, you know, and and right now, Bitcoin depends on more people deciding that nothing is something. But eventually, you run out of people who are going to make that leap of faith. But >> how is that ever expanding supply of fools in order to >> How is that how is that any different than gold going up in price? It's the exact same. >> It's 100% different. Because gold, gold is an actual precious metal, right? Gold, >> why does that matter?

>> Because gold is the most useful metal in the world. Gold is used for so many things because gold has properties that other metals just don't have. Gold has been used for thousands of years because of those properties. And in fact, we have invented more ways to use gold. As we have more technology, we find more uses for gold. So gold's the most useful metal that we have. And so that's what gives it its value. Now, gold can also be used as money. That's one of a lot of different uses that it has. In theory, that's Bitcoin's only use, but it's it's not even useful for that. I mean, people will admit that, look, if you want to

use a medium of exchange, Bitcoin is not your token. Use a different token. Well, then what the hell is Bitcoin for? They say, well, it's just to hold on to it like it's gold. Except it's not gold. You're not. It's like saying that a a a digital representation of a hamburger is food. You can't say, "Well, this is digital food." Well, but it's not like an actual hamburger. I can't eat it. If I had a diet of digital food, I would starve to death, right? Digital gold. If I tokenize gold and you own the token, you own the gold. Very different than owning nothing. And I'm going to be look, I'm probably going to launch my own token. You know, we should talk about I just launched on my Shift Gold website, right? If you go to shift gold

uh and go to the trade eventually, I'm going to I have another URL t-old.com. You can go to t-old.com too, but it doesn't link yet directly. The T was going to be for tokenized gold, but for now it's trade gold. But you go to my website, you can open up an account and buy gold that we will hold virtually for you in, you know, in a wear in a in a in a vault. But the purpose there is to give you gold that you could use as a medium of exchange because I'm going to make it so people that have gold on my platform can exchange it with one another and so they could use it in payments for goods and services. I'm going to link it to a a debit card at a credit card so you can go into an ATM machine or you can go into a store and

you can instantly convert your gold into fiat to spend it or hopefully I want to build out a network of merchants who don't want fiat who want gold. So you could go into any merchant who would accept it and you can spend your gold. But more particularly if you are a businessman, if you own a small business and you want to get paid in gold, if you'd prefer to get real money for the real services that you provide or the goods that you're selling, it'll be possible to be paid in gold. I mean, it's possible now, but people just have to roll it out. I mean, gold today with the technology we have, whether we're going to put it on a blockchain or just use the internet, gold is better as

money today than it's ever been. And we don't need governments to go back to a gold standard. Even though central banks are in effect doing it, but individuals can go back to a gold standard now on their own. We have the technology to do it. We don't need banks. We don't need a government printing press. We have a superior uh form of money. We could use gold. We don't even need, you know, pennies anymore or nickels or dimes. We don't because we could we could break gold down into tiny fractions of a gram. And so I can buy a cup of coffee with gold. I don't have to pay with silver or copper because the gold is too valuable because I can take a tiny bit of gold and transfer it to you digitally. So

that really works. I mean, Bitcoin doesn't do that. Gold does. >> It does. You can tokenize Bitcoin the same as you can tokenize gold. You took on top of Ethereum on top of you're not tokenizing anything when you make Bitcoin. You're just making a token out of thin air. You're just solving some ridiculous >> Here's a question I just want you to answer. I've always wondered this one. You say that gold is useful, which I understand there's some use cases for gold. It's not that useful, but it has some use cases. Okay. But it's worth what $35 trillion market cap or something like that. What's the value of gold total? Somewhere around that number.

>> I don't know. Yeah. I mean it's gone up a lot recently but you know >> what percent of that 35 trillion is actually used as its intrinsic value as you call it as like whatever you use gold for and braces or something or jewelry. >> Well h half the gold that is sold every year is is used for jewelry right so that's a big source of the demand. >> Sure. >> But all >> it's only used for jewelry because people like gold and it has the store value. if it didn't have store value. It's not only beautiful, but because of the properties of gold, you can make jewelry out of it, right? There are a lot of other metals that you that won't work. You can't make jewelry out of it like you can with gold. And of course,

gold doesn't rust, doesn't tarnish. So, if you're wearing gold and you go go for a swim, right, you take a shower, you're not going to harm your your your your jewelry. Um, but the other good thing about gold jewelry is if you use gold to make jewelry, the gold doesn't go anywhere. You can melt down your jewelry and get all of your gold back. It doesn't change. And in fact, a lot of the new supply of gold uh over the next few years for investors is going to come from people cashing in their jewelry because they need money. They're going to take their jewelry to pawn shops and they're going to cash it in for the value of the of the gold. Um but yes of that 35 trillion of market value right

how much any given year is used in consumer electronics is used in aerospace is used in medicine is used in dentistry. Yes, a small amount is used for those purposes. But the gold that we have today doesn't just represent what we're using it for today. It represents the current value of what people will use it for in a 100 years, in 200 years, because people are going to need that gold. We are digging it up now and holding it, storing that value to be used in the future by whoever needs it.

Right? So, it doesn't matter that we're not using it today because it it doesn't decay. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't rot, right? It's not like we have to consume it now or it's going to go bad. So, we're digging it out of the ground and we're just putting it in a place where it could be used. Uh, but in the short run, it can be used to back up currency. uh to provide stability in the monetary system because money has to be backed by something and gold is the best thing to back up fiat currency with. Uh so you know the idea that oh just because we're not doing what you know using it for those purposes and of course the main reason that gold is not used even more is because it's too expensive. I mean, if the price of gold

got cheaper, it would be used more, which is also a reason why the price can't fall very much. Because as the price of gold comes down, the real world demand for gold goes up because now all of a sudden, hey, I can't really afford to put gold in this at $4,000, but at 2,000 I'll buy it. It makes sense. At 4,000, I'm using something else, right? But there's always a price point where it becomes worth it to pay up for gold. And so you have, you know, natural buyers that will will step up into the market if the price gets too cheap. But there are no natural buyers for Bitcoin because there's nothing you can do with

Bitcoin. There's no real use case for Bitcoin. All the buyers are speculators. Yeah, if people want to buy it because they think it's going to go up, then they'll be buyers. But if Bitcoin keeps falling to the point where people no longer believe it's going to go up, if they think it's going to keep falling, then who the hell's going to want to buy it? Nobody's going to want to buy it. It's not like if Bitcoin is at 10,000, it's a better deal than it's at 100,000 because you got nothing either way. It doesn't matter. I'm I'm I'm spending $10,000 on nothing. So, I'm You know, what's the difference between spending $100,000 on nothing? Why do people invest in real estate? Because it spits off cash flow. But I'm not here to manage rental properties. That's why I'm looking at Figure Markets. Their new

democratized prime product backs your money with real cash flowing assets and returns up to 9% APY. It's the first real world asset borrow lend pool built for everyone, not just institutions. Ready to lend like a bank and get more than the 5% A is offering you? Download the Figure Markets app today and get 9% on your idol funds. Go to milkroad.comfiguremarkets. >> Okay, let's look. We're not gonna I know we're never going to change your mind. Many many uh many people before me have tried. It's so funny though, like all of your reasons for gold. Well, most of them are like or why you love gold are just like you're like, "Yeah, well, Bitcoin is that too." And then for some reason just doesn't work for you. Works

for your son. Isn't he still a Bitcoiner? Remember that was that's why look the the environment in which Bitcoin thrived was the environment where gold went sideways which was very frustrating for a lot of gold bugs because you know so gold went from under $300 an ounce in 1999 to $1,900 an ounce in 2011. Right? Bitcoin came on the scene in about 2010. Right after gold had already gone way up. Now gold basically goes sideways really from 2011 to 2024, right? Up and down in a range, not going anywhere. The Fed has, you know, printed all this

money, right? There's all this inflation and gold's not moving because people forget that gold already made a big move, right? And now it's kind of consolidating that move. And during that time, Bitcoin was marketed as a alternative to gold. Hey, gold's not going anywhere. Try Bitcoin. Look at Bitcoin. Bitcoin's going up. It's the new gold. It's gold 2.0. You know, you guys are a bunch of dinosaurs with your, you know, horse and buggy. You know, here's a new uh sports car, Bitcoin. And look at all these people getting rich.

Look at all these kids that are buying Lambos. They bought Bitcoin and now they're millionaires. And you've been sitting on your rocks and you haven't made any money. And and so this was the hype that got a lot of people into it. And then of course as the price of Bitcoin goes up, it's a self-perpetuating situation, right? Higher prices sucks in more demand and now you get even higher prices and now more tales of rags to riches and and and and so the people that got in really early who didn't sell right now they clean up. They've got hundreds of millions, billions of dollars. They've got enough to buy off politicians, right? A a and now get the government involved. They sucker Wall Street in on it with all this money. You

know, Wall Street can't resist getting involved, right? You know, I mean, they don't give a damn. They just want to make money. So, they're g they're going to try to, you know, feed any duck that quacks. And, you know, you see all this stuff going on in crypto. And, you know, even even Jamie Diamond, who knows this is all BS, right? JP Morgan still gets involved because they want to make money. They want they want to cream, you know, take the cream off the top of this. They they they want to book the bets. They want to be the casino that makes money off of all the Bitcoin action. They don't believe in it themselves. They know it's a, you know, it's a it's a con. At least a lot of them do. Some of them are probably, you know, you know, too caught up in it to

to recognize that. That's what happens in in every mania. You know, people buy into the themselves. They don't realize that it's a bunch of Um, but, you know, let me come to an end. It's just going to be, you know, that the fact that it's gone on so much longer. Uh, and I've been criticizing it for so long, right? This is where, you know, ah, Peter Schiff, yeah, you've been saying not to buy Bitcoin since it was $100. See, what the hell do you know? It's like, I know a lot more than the people who bought it. Now, the thing is, yeah, had I made a better speculative wager, yes, I blew the opportunity to make a lot of money off of the greed and and and foolishness of a lot of other people. I I I I I had

that opportunity and I I missed out on it. >> Is there ever a world or a price where you admit you were wrong? >> Does that exist for you? >> I've already admitted I was wrong with the benefit of hindsight not to buy it. Sure, I should have bought it, but over the past four years or so, I've been wrong. >> I've been right not to buy it because everything pretty much that I own and that I've bought has done better than Bitcoin, right? So yes, I would have been better off owning Bitcoin from 2010 to 2021, right? Yeah, those 11 years I would have cleaned up had I only bought Bitcoin, right? But since then, I'm better off with what I owed, right? You

know, and and and so what am I going to do? Yes, I I missed out on that speculative opportunity, but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy it now, you know, after it's popped out and you know the whole world owns it and you have I've never seen in any asset so much conviction that you can't lose, right? If you talk to the typical Bitcoiner, there's no possibility that he's going to lose money in Bitcoin. All he has to do is hold it and it's guaranteed to go up and not just a little, it's going to moon. People are going to get rich just by holding Bitcoin. That's all you have to do. Just make that one decision. Buy Bitcoin and you're on easy street. You don't you don't have to save. You don't have to work hard. Just buy some Bitcoin and

relax and hold it and you will be rich. Right? That is that is the mantra. Just never sell it. No matter what happens, never sell it because that's the biggest mistake you can make is actually sell. The people who are saying this are the ones who want to sell. the the big guys that want to get out want to make sure the little guys don't get out because that would be competition and they need more people to buy so they can get out, right? So, it's a whole big market. >> Peter, we got for the sake of time for for the sake of time we've got to start to wrap up and so we want to ask you let's look into the future here. You talked about the last 11 years you would have bought Bitcoin uh or 11 years there you would have bought Bitcoin you would

have done well. Now it was gold for the last was it four years. take us to the next whatever time frame you look at two years, five years, 10 years. How's gold do? How's Bitcoin do? How does whatever other markets you look at? You said that you you allocate across things outside of gold. What's your outlook on like kind of the macro world and just like how do the assets play out from that? >> Yeah. Keep it concise. Peter, like this is this is a portfolio building exercise. In one minute or less, what are you building your portfolio with right now for the next 10 years? You know, our global uh foreign dividend payer portfolio at one point was up over 50% this year. I haven't checked it.

Maybe it's up a little less than 50% now because it's pulled back. But I think this is indicative of a massive rotation that is just starting out of US stocks into foreign stocks which I think is going to move into emerging markets next year. So people who are in the stock market should underweight US uh substantially and move more money into international equities and emerging markets. I think they should also have an overweight to commodity type stocks whether it's not just precious metals, industrial metals, uh agriculture, energy. I think a lot of these things are going to do very well in an inflationary uh ddollarization environment. We're going to be in that

for a long time. uh it's stagflation like the 1970s except a lot worse in the 1970s. So if you go back and look at the investments that did well in the 1970s, they'll do even better uh now. So that's generally the portfolio. I've got a lot of mutual funds that people can buy. Uh you can buy them no load at all the discount brokers. You go to my website at europac.com. You can see it above my shoulder and you can learn about my websites. You can talk to the representatives. We have separately managed accounts. Uh, gold and silver I think are going a lot higher. Everybody should own some physical gold and silver. You can go to shift gold.com and buy some if you have crypto. You know, we partnered with Bit Pay. I probably was one of the first companies to

partner with Bit Pay so you can use your Bitcoin, buy gold and silver, you know. So, you should do that. Um, and open up open up a trade account, open up a virtual account uh on my new the new platform at chiffgold.com and, you know, be a part of that because I'm going to help to restore gold to money, not just as a store of value, but something that everyday Americans can use as a medium of exchange to get away from the US dollar. Just like a lot of people use FedEx and not the post office, a lot of people use Uber and not a taxi cab. The reason that you get a better deal at Uber or FedEx is because they're not

governmentrun, right? Uh well, our our fiat monetary system is lousy money. It's government mon money and it's designed to fail. If you own it, you are guaranteed to lose. But if you use the free market alternative, gold, gold is superior to any substitute that the government can cox, you know, with with with a printing press. So you could do that. You could use gold and you'll have a much better experience using gold as a medium of exchange and and then also as a store of value than you will using the dollars. And uh and so you can set up your account. I have a lot more functionality coming. Uh, but I'm now I've got it ready to go. So, at least

people can get started, buy some gold and silver, have it in a vault, uh, and it'll be ready to be able to be used uh, in transactions. >> Yeah, we agree on so many things. Uh, it's so funny, but I just would say there's two things I don't agree on. One, the Blue Jays are better than the Dodgers. You think the other way around? Uh, >> not I said the Blue Jays are playing really well. I mean, you know, we got the pitching on the Dodgers, but >> I don't Oh, I mean you guys have been playing uh playing playing some defense. >> And then the other thing I would say is that Bitcoin in the crypto financial system is the answer to the broken fiat system that you outline as well, right?

You outline the exact same thing, but you want to take us to the old old financial system of gold. We want to take us to the frontier, which is crypto and Bitcoin. That's where our roads cross and we differ. But that's okay. That's okay. We like, >> you know, this the financial system is broken. You're right. But jumping from the frying pan into the fire is not the solution. You know, Bitcoin is just a private version of fiat. It's, you know, it's it's it's not the solution that you're looking for. It is or was a get-richqu scheme for a lot of people. I think now it's a get broke slow scheme.

Although you might go broke quickly if the bottom drops out of this thing because it's looking very very toppy. So, um, you know, maybe maybe if the government comes up and Trump says, "All right, we're gonna buy it. We're gonna we're gonna sell our gold and we're gonna we're gonna buy Bitcoin." I don't know. Maybe you could get a rally. You know, that would be a great selling opportunity. That's that's the whole idea. But I don't know that he's going to be able to do that. Um but uh that would and that would be a massive mistake that for the US government to allow foreign central banks to get all of our gold and we get stuck with nothing uh but uh worthless strings of numbers that nobody wants.

[laughter] >> All right, LG, let's >> great Peter. Well, thank you for the perspective, man. I uh I love the passion. I love I love the intensity. Uh that's great. >> Save you guys. trying to save you from yourselves. [laughter] You know, it's like you've got everything right except you've just got the wrong >> That's what I think about you. That's exactly what I think about you. You two [laughter] >> I I I had all this stuff first, right? I I I was thinking all this stuff before you guys were born. [laughter] >> That's every boomer. Every boomer on the planet.

>> That's not fair. Yeah, that's >> But you know what? Every everybody thinks they're smarter than their parents and their grandparents. This is not new, right? This is not new. People want to rebel. So, okay, you know, you're rebelling against gold with with with Bitcoin. Uh, who knows what your kids and grandkids are going to say, but you'll be able to, you know, say the same thing as me. Look, let me tell you, son, I remember I don't know if you've heard about this thing called Bitcoin, but way back in the day, you know, I I had a lot of money in Bitcoin. I really thought it was gonna, you know, change the world. And I should have listened to the Peter Schiff, you know, he was older than me and he was wiser and more experienced and I should have listened to him. But, you know, I I was too

stubborn. I lost all my money. That's why I'm broke. >> Peter, at the rate kids are going the young people are going these days, they'll be like, "You should sold it into XRP." That's what they're going to tell us. [laughter] >> They definitely won't rock. That's for sure. >> Peter, thank you so much for having me on the show. Kyle, thanks for joining an epic episode. Uh, and we'll >> Are you guys going to this conference in Dubai? >> Oh, he wants >> We are not. We are not. >> All right. >> You are. >> I I I think so. >> You're going to go to a Bitcoin conference. What are you doing? >> Well, that's so I can have a debate with CZ.

>> Ah, okay. Oh, right. Right. Right. Oh, that's right. Is that Is that happening? Is that Is that Rumble happening? >> They're trying to make it happen. So, you know, >> right on. >> He's ready to go. >> We'll check that out. >> Taylor's going to be there, though. I'm wondering if when he finds out I'm going he's probably going to have to come up with an excuse not to show up. >> He's going to come up mid He's going to come out mid-match. Uh drop drop in from the ceiling like >> Peter Shift Michael Sailor boxing match. How sick would that be? [laughter] >> On the White House lawn, man. That's where I want to see it at the UFC battle. That'll be the opening match.

All right, Peter, thank you so much, man. I'm sure we'll see you again. Kyle, thanks for call. >> If y'all are making swaps or trades right now, highly recommend you check out Milkroad Swap. This is a deck that we built in partnership with Cow Protocol. Why did we build it? Not to make money, just honestly so we could have a place to do our swaps for the lowest fees that we could find. This is the fees on Ethereum, Arbitum, and Bass are only.15% fees. Uh this is a huge difference from uh other centralized exchanges that charge half a percent or even up to 1.2% fees on their swaps. Also, you can swap on Salana all at swap.mmillgro.com.

Check it out today. You won't be upset. And you can join me in my favorite place to make swaps on chain. Want insights on what's moving crypto markets and [music] how we're trading each event? Subscribe to our channel and join the Milk Road Daily and Pro Newsletters and [music] start investing like the top 1%. This show is for educational purposes only. Nothing we say is financial advice. Investing is risky. Never invest more than you can afford to lose.