The Personal Cost of Building DeFi: Stani Kulechov — Aave Labs

Transcript

Let's go. >> Oh, the light's so bright. >> Feels like a everyone came to see a movie. >> Where's the popcorn? Does everybody have popcorn? All right. Um, welcome everybody to the launch of the human protocol podcast. Uh, Stani, welcome as first guest for the launch. Thank you for joining me. >> Thank you. Big honor.

>> The honor is all mine. >> Um, just for context, the human protocol podcast is all about the personal side of building big things. My interest as somebody who's been in the space for nine years is what it actually felt like to build the things that we constantly talk about. We constantly talk about the alpha. We constantly talk about the success and uh the dramas etc etc. I don't really care about that. I want to know who the people are behind the big projects and again what that arc is.

what the personal arc, the personal lessons, the personal stories are all about. So that's context for everybody. All right, let's get going. I would love to know a little bit about who you were before you were Stani, the founder of A Labs. We can go as far back as you want. We can go to Estonia, Finland, your dad getting you uh the computer hacking on Linux, dropping out, whatever you want to start with.

>> Yeah, I was my next qu my first question was like how far um uh I should go, but uh maybe um yeah, I mean when I was growing up uh like online and computers were a big thing. Um, and it started with a uh broadband broadband uh connection and I I think one of the first things I uh took really seriously online was uh playing Counter Strike. >> Okay, >> that was um I know how many of you guys have played Counterstrike. Okay, it's very uh very mature audience.

Um uh that means that I spend a lot of time on on on computers and um you know while you weren't playing you were doing some different things and um I lived with my older brother who was uh 5 years older >> um he was very excited about um operating systems like Linux and and and and really understanding kernels and and uh contributing to to that uh those communities. Um I was more interested in in kind of like web internet and okay >> the access it it provided and and for me it was really interesting because uh I I kind of felt when uh internet started to pick up more that um like it it it sort

of puts all the businesses and opportunities onto the same kind of like a um flat um level playing field. So you like you you go to a website and you don't know if it's a if if that's kind of like um website or application is a business with 4,000 people or four people you know. >> Okay. >> And at that time obviously it was very early. So um you know things like buying online was not as smooth as possible like for example as like putting credit card details and trusting stripe and whatnot like it was before that. So doing anything with with a credit card online, you were kind of like like >> risking.

>> Yeah. Pretty much like how people feel with maybe crypto today still uh a bit >> um and and DeFi and so forth. Um so what what was interesting for me is that uh you you could actually build this uh applications and I started with very simple stuff like websites and then started to use more PHP uh programming and >> and at some point um it became more interesting because you started to see more like web uh frameworks to build really um like a >> more complex >> yeah complex and product like applications on web And I think it was like uh 16 at that point when uh Ruby and Rails was a big uh thing. And I I

think Twitter also acts now uh was built originally uh with that in mindset. Um and that was kind of like the the web 2.0 movement. And I used to be at a like a sports high school and uh my my dad was very into like sports and so somewhat it made me into sports and >> um >> and at that point like after first year of high school I kind of dropped I dropped out basically um and just started to program uh like every day basically. I even left home in the morning just pretending going to school.

How long did you hide that for? >> Like a year. >> Whoa. Uh, okay. What was the push back from your family when you dropped out? First of all, when they found out that after a year you hadn't been to school, >> was that a little bit? Um, >> I think they they kind of were worried, but also like they didn't care much. um not that my parents didn't care didn't care but but uh um you know I had a lot of freedom in my um my life and when I was growing up so I think they were like less concerned and I just came up with reasons and uh just to continue um programming >> and I think then um I did like a lot of applications like I tried to build

anything that I could imagine and reusing a lot of like templates and And um I think it was until like early 20s when I actually started to like build a startup. >> Okay. >> And at that point it was more of a like a fintech platform. Um it was a time when like crowdfunding peer-to-peer lending >> was really >> Yeah. thinking of >> Yes. like marketplace economies and I was building this um marketplace where you could actually um buy receivables as a investor um diversify your portfolio and that funding goes to fund businesses

for invoice financing >> very like nerdy and fintechy uh solution. >> What attracted you to that? Like out of everything that you could build, why that? I think I felt that finance wasn't uh evolved enough and on the web and I think that there was a lot that was already built like there there was really like >> e-commerce was working pretty well. You could you know you could order anything online. Um then also uh social was already like taking off quite a lot and like a lot of use cases but finance was I think it was like the last slowm moving bastion uh at that point and um

it was even like before any mobile banking or any of the like revolutes and and whatnot and and like banking and finance felt like brick and mortar and financial services uh in general. So I I I was uh convinced that you know this this is a field that is going to move quite a lot. >> Um and once I started to actually build uh some of the stuff I realized why it actually didn't move because of regulation and the complexity and um especially with the with the compliance and regulation. It was a really [ __ ] show. It was really hard to understand like what was uh um you know what was legal and what not. Yeah.

>> Uh like what is the gray area and at that time especially like peer-to-peer lending crowdfunding started to get regulated across Europe like basically um um member country after member country and and I think um uh for me that was really uh painful because you have to spend a lot of uh resources for like legal fees and you have this uncertainty and eventually you are trying to build like a accessible financial um application that that is useful >> and then you're sort of like broken down into regions.

>> So I found it a little bit um challenging and and and obviously uh at that point we failed which was pretty pretty okay. Uh and >> were you was that good? where you just, you know what, this is fine. Close down this chapter because realistically in this space, the way it is right now, there's no moving the needle the way you would want it to. >> Yeah, I wasn't too worried because um we didn't have that many customers or users. So, didn't have to send many emails. Uh and I think um uh it was really easy to close because I've done so many of these different applications >> beforehand and just like left them

online um to to to be used and and move to the next thing that is more viable. >> Okay. >> And yeah, it was it was a it wasn't a hard decision at all. It was frustrating to see how hard it was to build uh the stuff and I tried to learn a lot uh about uh compliance, a lot about the >> uh regular regulatory frameworks and >> and then uh when I stopped I I actually wanted to go then to uni and and instead of computer science I wanted to study law because I really wanted to understand the um uh legal frameworks, compliance and also >> okay >> basically the commercial side to get into law school. I had to actually go

back to high school and it sucked because you were like in your 20s and everyone else were like, you know, 16. >> Yeah. >> Did you do it? >> Yeah, I had to go there and uh >> how many years? Three. >> Um >> two. >> Well, it was a three-year uh three-year program. Okay. >> But I did it in six months. >> Okay. >> And I did it in a uh like a brute force tactic. So there's exams every couple of months. So you just take as many books as possible and as many exams and you just try to pass them. Um >> Okay.

>> Like that was the strategy and that's how I got it in completion really quickly. >> Six months. Nice. Was that in >> brute force works really well. >> This is it. Like you know when it in when you need it, you need it. What was that like? Was it exciting? And was it like okay I'm going to go do this real quick. get into law, sort out the financial system. >> Well, in Finland where I'm from, um it's actually interesting the whole uh educational system because >> kind of like all the all the um applicants are like competing from the same positions.

>> Okay. >> Because the education is free, right? So, you have to like try to get into a uh a school. Yes. >> And and these high demand um programs then obviously like you might try like every year. um maybe you get into the first, second, third or fifth or sixth. Um I was lucky enough to get on the second year. Um and it was actually pretty pretty nice because end of my studies I was really trying to uh think about like what to uh what to do next. Okay. um coming closer to graduation and um and I was read reading a lot of uh Reddit at that time and um I stumbled upon to the Ethereum subreddit y

>> and I was reading a lot about it and I was like this is like uh this is interesting. Um, and I saw a lot of like very early like financial like DAPs like decentralized applications that were very like um very primitive at at that point. Um and I was reading more about this and I was like wow this is actually you know you actually can build finance but in a completely an environment where you you have permissionless access so you don't need to ask for API keys and you don't need to really have this sort of like u uh restrictions like it feels borderless and the idea of of >> uh the the governance and you just need a wallet and you can uh interact and

everything is transparent >> and that really blew my mind because um this is what finance should be. >> Yeah. >> Um without all this restrictions uh like u regionality and and and and bottlenecks you can actually truly just innovate on programmable finance and that's just like at that point I was hooked. Was the hooking almost immediate because you had all done this in the real world standard world and then you saw this possibility instantly? What was the time frame of getting onto the subreddit and then being like I need to build here? Yeah, I I so the things that I was building in in fintech was um you

know like borderless and trying to like really have a global audience and this was actually the environment where you you could do that uh very efficiently and >> and I started to think about ideas and um mainly related to finance and lending because that was >> what I've done in the past and um then I was thinking that um could be interesting if you can just do whole like end to end loan on on the smart contracts and and and use those benefits but in a way that's you know a a borrower has a incentive to to pay it back.

>> Okay. So at that point um we made a small um proof of concept um where we kept basically um uh tokens as a collateral uh 20s and you borrow Ethereum and Ether and at that point so it was 1617 like at that point there wasn't stable coins um on Ethereum so it was very very early >> um and and that was the sort of a proof of concept. >> Okay. So then let's move to the moment where you start building this the proof of concept and then Eland and then Eland starts

getting traction and traction. What does that feel like when you are suddenly responsible for all of this money and its security and it's on you to make sure that everything works and doesn't break? >> I mean, it's horrible. It is a It is really uh not a great uh responsibility. And I I'm also wondering how other D5 founders um think about this and feel about it. But um and and developers uh particularly um because um you know you you sort of like um you know the the blockchain tests your

confidence all the time and um and sometimes things can be out of your control. Yep. >> Um so it's it's something that you you have to have like a um a way of thinking about it and and processing. But it is it is a um something that uh changed the approach of like this is not anymore experimentation. This is actually a um you know a significant product or a protocol that is being used by other people. So there is value like and uh you have to think what's best for the users and um yeah you definitely change your mind about like uh that you know you you really

have there something that people are using >> and you need to ensure it's um uh you know very resilient. >> How many sleepless nights? How many like what how tired were you during that time and how stressed? Cuz I want to normalize like maybe you know that intense process of building something that then becomes one of the biggest projects like what did that cost you? What did you go through?

>> Yeah, I mean it it is really um hard. I think every protocol iteration what we build between whether it's like Eland or V1, two, three and four like it's really you know the whole team is putting a lot of uh um energy into it and and and all our kind of like a partners and so forth like um it is something where which really gets everyone heads down for very long period of time and and focusing on all the integrated details and edge cases and whatnot. So it it's um it is definitely like the the one of the most hardest things ever we we do.

>> Mhm. >> Uh and the whole process and uh we probably have like u protocol iteration every like a couple of years and V3 has been uh around for a few years but V2 we already been building it and designing and thinking about it for over over two years. Um so it is a really like um uh place where like you have to just put your whole mind into it uh across the team. Um and it is definitely not easy and I think protocol development is one of the most difficult things to do like if um there's no shortcuts basically like you have to really think everything

up to you know the smallest rounding um you know there's a lot but there's also great people that uh that help us so we're not we're not alone there >> and obviously now you have uh a big team and you know the let's say the responsibility is shared. Do you still feel that very intense personal responsibility for it all the same way as you did in the beginning? >> Oh yeah. And I but also I think that um it it is a shared responsibility that you have to have everyone in the team that really cares uh what they're doing and and puts 100% um on the table. But yeah, you're always uh you know, it's

your face that is is like you know out there. Yeah. So, but yeah, but I I do think that >> it is a team effort and it's it's one of the most difficult things to do. So, like it there's shared ownership over that. >> Mhm. Um with regards to again the evolution of things because A is such a big player, one of the biggest in our space, >> the biggest >> the biggest parardona. Um what does that do to your ability? Because again that personal responsibility and you're the face and you are the one who

is talking about it and and uh interacting with everybody and we see you at so many conferences just interacting with people all the time. Have you learned to put any boundaries in place so that your energy doesn't all just go endlessly towards this in these past few years? I would like to say yes, but the answer is no. like I I feel like I um you know and and I I think that's it is a very open community and one of the best things uh in um our ecosystem is that you know you might have a conversation somewhere um you know during this event >> uh for example and you get new ideas or

um you make um new basically um uh new new friends and and and I think that's uh that is really refreshing and I think Um it's also a place where you know there's a lot of people uh but there's also a good amount of signal and um really interesting ideas that people are talking about and and and there's a lot um also uh a lot of builders and one of the ideas for uh V4 was that we can open up the whole um architecture for everyone to come and actually contribute and build new things.

>> Okay. um because it's more modular it means that you know you can actually use obvious liquidity to to build and extend the protocol to new use cases and uh and I meet a lot of developers and I think those discussions are really uh really valuable um I do have some boundaries though uh maybe I'm trying to more uh be careful with the time um uh you know especially when like you're getting older and you you have a family you're trying to like at at least regulate the time how you spend or at least prioritize. I I think that's some something I'm trying to work uh towards.

>> Mh. >> Um but yeah, I'm still a mess when it comes to comes to that >> to like dividing your time. >> Oh yeah. >> Because you brought out fam uh brought up family obviously. Yes. You're became a father in this time and so on. What has that changed your perspective in any way on what you're doing, what you want to build? Does that responsibility now extend to your children and what they will experience out in the world? Um, yeah, how is that kind of changed? And also to the point that we were making earlier, Stani, founder of A Labs, talking to everybody, sharing his time so generously versus Stani at home. How

do they coexist? >> No, I think um having family always uh I think it helps definitely gives a perspective for life um but also you know prioritization because in somehow like you know we we grew up in the space right so like uh almost a decade ago we were here. >> Yeah. >> Um you know and and uh and I think that's um you kind of like have to think you know what is the next thing and the space evolves right all the time. So a decade ago it was very early. >> Yes.

>> Early builders and you know a lot of experimentation. Now you see more even like institutions um really trying to understand um how to use DeFi and FinTech integrating DeFi. So like it's getting more professional and more you see more adoption and and there's better tooling to even build towards mainstream. Um and so the the you kind of like have to grow up with the space and and think about prioritization. Um and besides that um yeah and and also like yeah the time management obviously is is important but I still feel like the whole space is always online and

sometimes I kind of wish that wish that there there would be office hours. >> Okay. 9 to5. Yeah, let's let's say like uh on you know once a month the whole space agrees you know nothing happens but obviously that's impossible. >> It is but I like the fact that at least like at this point we're like you know what I would like some downtime just a little bit quiet touch grass spend times time with the kids and so on. Yeah, it's also hard because like um when you're locked in you you also like want to dedicate Yes. Uh to what you're building and I think also the reason for that is that there's so little being built like in

one way you look at DeFi and and you see that there's >> you know there's AMMs lending protocols stable coins but it's it's really still early. I I I think that's >> if you think about the size of DeFi at 100 to 200 billion, it's still nothing. Uh and RWA is at 20 30 billion, that's also like even less. Um that's just like a drop in the ocean of of what the whole financial uh like finance overall in financial infrastructure has in in terms of value >> value locked in. Uh so I think that in this whole like a process we're we're quite early. So it's um it feels like now is actually the best time to build

um and and I I think that um it's also very rewarding time because um we'll see actually more adoption. So you don't necessarily need to build um infrastructure but also like more in the integration layers and and products and and there's there's a lot to do there. And I I think that's why like I I keep telling a lot of founders that um you know actually like when they ask about the the early days of of of DeFi that actually now is is is much more exciting because so many things are happening.

There's more clarity also >> somewhat in the regulation and and that's going to just keep improving. Um yeah and also with AI there's also another dimension to our space completely opportunity >> which is uh um really uh interesting. >> Mhm. So you're definitely still inspired and excited to build. Was there ever a time where you thought about quitting? >> I mean um it gets really hard um quite often to be honest. too often. Um and you know at that point you sort of like uh uh you get frustrated. Um not necessarily like quitting itself but you kind of you know wish that things are

like uh easier. >> Y >> u but it comes from the fact that this is a very like a spe specialized space. There's a lot of things happening. Um I think there's a lot of noise as well especially like on social media. >> Yeah. you know, like I think maybe like 95% or more even is noise. Um, so it's sometimes kind of like a distracting. >> Um, even though there's some uh good takes, but a lot of bad takes. >> Yep. >> Um, but a lot of relevant discussions I think as well. Um, but it's it's it's sort of important for every founder and and team not to get caught up into any any of the noise and and trying to

understand what's important to build and not chasing narratives or uh the meta and and just like building viable products is something where uh the focus should be always. Mh. >> Um, and it's not always easy because you know there's communities, there's investors, there might be like uh token holders and everyone has an idea. Um, you know, so yeah, the focus is is really important to always have. >> How do you achieve that? Because you mentioned the noise and you mentioned the dramas and you mentioned the distractions.

How do you deal with that? How do you keep focus? And also in general, how have you learned to deal with conflict? >> I mean, it's um you know, conflicts are also, you know, depending what they are, but um >> you know, sometimes there are opinions um you know, and and then you just have to like figure out what's the best opinions and you don't want to end up with compromises because most likely compromises are, you know, something that satisfies everyone might satisfy no one. Uh, and that's something to it like I I think there's more value in being opinionated and having a direction and going to that direction versus um

building something that is middle ground, >> right, >> for everyone. Um, and that doesn't lead to anywhere. Um, so it's I think it's important to to lead uh and and showing the way and the way we do that is by building uh and and building and you know if something doesn't work we rebuild things and um recreate and and it's a constant evolution right so what worked for in 2017 doesn't work in 2020 or 2025 and you have to constantly uh keep innovating. Mhm. And then to your point again with the focus and not getting distracted, do you feel that's something that

you have learned to do? Were you as good at doing that in the beginning? Like I want to hear some lessons that you've learned in these past 10 years, right? What is Stani from the beginning and Stani now? What are some lessons that you've learned? Yeah, I think that's something that's probably the hardest thing ever and and and maybe to most people even like it's really hard to be good at focusing on things because um again there's just like so so many stakeholders and so much discussion and and things moving and and and and typically if you're building a product um you know you don't might have any users in the beginning and you might wonder why right and you know and then

you read that some another project got you know some sort of like uh traction like a new per exchange right and everyone is building per >> then there's an interesting yield bearing stable coin everyone's building yield bearing stable coins so uh this is a really like a dangerous path right um because I think in most cases like it it just takes time to iterate uh to get a good product and and and uh grow that product and and also like um have a really good way of of uh flywheels and and whatnot. And >> um and even like experienced founders might make that same mistake again uh by not focusing. Um but also you need to understand when you know you kind of

need to kill something and uh move on and and rebuild. >> Um and I think the best the the best thing to do is to talk to users directly. um not asking like what people think in in in in the crypto Twitter or >> yes >> uh or investors or even your friends but going like to the people that actually are using the stuff you build um and that gives actually way better uh signal than anything else >> and do you think there's a degree of patience that you need to have in >> Oh my god. Yeah. And it's so hard probably like I I think our space has a weird problem of like seeing results on

the same on the same day like immediately >> and uh there's like a zero patience of actually >> letting you know things just mature and building things and in long term and this is something that people need to speak uh publicly and openly about because uh it's also like um uh a setting of like that somehow uh has been evolving this way. Uh and I don't think it needs to be this way like if founders and uh developers are more vocal about uh things like um you know how how they think about building long term and uh building building the value um this sort of noise also uh could

disappear to large extent I think so that is a big problem and it's also a huge distraction for for many in my opinion. Um, yeah, I think so. >> Do you think that ends up being because again now it's really important like you're saying for other founders to actually normalize that let it build, let it kind of accumulate and give it that long term versus panicking short term. Do you feel that a some founders have made those mistakes and have pivoted or have done things reactively other versus like letting it staying focused and letting it take its time and

then get to the value? >> Yeah, I think there there is definitely that uh I I've seen like a very quick pivots. Um but also sometimes you need to pivot as soon as possible, right? >> So finding the the reason for that. So like let's say like you know if you have users that are saying something else you know that they want and they won't use your product you know anymore or you know especially if you see you don't see retention. Um it might be so that you have to pivot.

>> Uh but sometimes it might also be that you just need to build build closer to the users and try to understand what's missing and building around that and also obviously build the right thing. So if you build for five users um and you're trying to build a company, you're going to charge those five users quite a lot uh to to keep you know the com the lights on, right? >> Um so you need to also be smart of like what are you having conviction as well. Um and it comes probably the best of of by using things and finding like what's it's very hard to solve a theoretical problem that you know something is missing but it doesn't come from your own like usage or um kind of like um

experience. >> So it has to be done through practice and then having that focus. Yeah >> I I think so because um solving like a theoretical challenges like it you know it can work as well. Um, I'm saying it it it doesn't but >> um, I just think that like if it was a problem for you, >> um, you know, maybe it's a problem for somewhere else and you know the problem really well because you suffered the problem and then you have a solution. And >> I mean, for for me, for example, um, having tokens um, and and being able to unlock liquidity that it was a really uh, simple problem because, you know, you couldn't go to a bank, they won't lend against Bitcoin or Ethereum. uh

probably like still yeah >> they don't uh so there's sort of like opportunity there and obviously like doing it in a very decentralized way it's much more harder and that's why centralized lenders uh crypto lenders were taking off before DeFi even though Eland and a started before because you had this sort of technical gap and you had to fulfill and learn more about what the users um behaviors and what they wanted to have from the Um I'm curious if there is now one rule and then I'll also loop this in.

Is there something that you've wanted to say publicly and haven't yet or haven't found the right space? And also if this helps is there any rule that you have now that you kind of I don't know live by work by any any kind of insight that you were like you know what this needs to be said. >> Yeah. Maybe for um like one of the rules that I have is I I try to force myself to talk to people about um potential ideas and and solutions and not trying to always try to kind of like a resolve my own uh thinking because um

it helps to give a lot of perspective and maybe someone has a uh better view and most likely that's the case. Um uh and um yeah, that's that's something that is uh quite important. Um and and then um I think no one really talks about kind of like um you know like there's obviously like you know it is a bare market right in some ways and >> um I think people don't realize um or talk about publicly about like how important Ethereum is. Um and kind of like as a you know like a value system that has been created and and you know

if if you think about like um all the technologies and everything that exists uh Ethereum um as a blockchain probably will exist forever in a way where it's going to always have utility. Mhm. >> Um things might change like obviously like uh internet economy evolves um AI evolves and a lot of new technology will be introduced but the concept of having um a a a resilient and secure way to transact uh will be always here regardless of the technical uh innovation. It will be just maybe in a new form of of of a of a Ethereum basically. So I don't think people

realize like what has been built uh over the decade and how far and and how good Ethereum as a network actually is and everyone is focusing on sort of like the markets and >> um nitty-gritty details and and you know is Ethereum you know valuable useful blah blah blah like a lot of this noise that I was talking about earlier. Um but it is like a a really uh resilient system that doesn't have downtime and and people need to realize how you know amazing this uh achievement actually is and then you can build stuff on on top.

So I don't think people really realize how far we have been able to to travel >> in a relatively short space time. >> Yeah. And people people give too much of like they don't give enough credit for uh developers that have been contributing into uh Ethereum development and and and also like uh how uh kind of um uh you know rigorous um think it is to build a a secure system that is securing like uh tens of and tens of uh billions. Um and that's something that we have to I want to talk about a little bit more. um uh in the future as well and and and also like get

people to to also talk about it >> and that element of gratitude. >> Yeah, gratitude but also like um realization of like kind of like this is the value chain that uh you know can be the backbone uh of of all all finance. the same as as a is for uh lending and borrowing. Ethereum is underlying for all the value and I think um uh it's still very early but uh you know the world will will transition into this direction and it doesn't need uh you know it doesn't need Vitalic it doesn't need anyone else but you know people need to understand that that system exists and it's built towards uh that direction. Um so yeah, gratitude but

also uh the fact that it how actually good tech it is. >> Is that the main thing that kind of keeps you because it's also a question that that I want to be asking is what is inspiring you and what is motivating you to keep going and again realize this promise of everything that we've been building. Yeah, I think um innovation typically is the the thing like finding that what new things can be built. I think that's something that um uh keeps me going and figuring out like new ways of using um a um things that can be built in DeFi. Uh

also seeing like D5 getting integrated more to mainstream. Um we have an integration with uh uh VO recently e-commerce platform. 21 million users have access to a trip plus mana like that's like a really exciting thing. So we'll see probably more defi integrations into fintex and uh traditional finance. So that's really uh motivating. >> Mh. Uh also the best motivator for me is uh seeing builders that come and actually have built something on a especially with a v4 there's a like there's uh dozen of of teams that I met just in in in during the launch date on Monday

>> okay >> that were building spokes >> and u the crazy thing is that because the code is public uh a lot of these spokes were ready you know so different kinds of lending use cases and I That's the the the the whole power of building and operating in public is that you know you see these developers uh just spending time on your work. >> Nice. Okay. Any final thoughts that you want to share? anything that you feel would be useful from you Stani the human building the big thing that you feel they should kind of or not should but it would be good for them to keep in mind

whether they're at the beginning of their journey in the middle at the end because they're fallen into a little bit of a pessimistic market spiral what do you think would be what would you want to share >> yeah I would I would say like first of first and foremost like [ __ ] the markets. Um you know it's like we we're building products and and and and tech. >> Um and uh I think it's a uh it is a marit not a sprint. Yes. So it takes quite a lot of time and and I think most important is to to build things with um with people that are nice and you know that you have really good uh chemistry and and and can build things uh because that can go really far actually and you know it's better to do this uh like kind

of like a for fun but in a way that you're trying to achieve something um that that makes it really a great uh journey. And the last thing um the only thing I want to say is that D5 will win. >> Stani, thank you so much. Thank you everybody for joining us. The Human Protocol episode 001.