Perpetual Protocol - Nick Tong & Yenwen Feng | Meet the Nation

Transcript

[Music] hey bankless nation welcome to this edition of meet the nation today we are going to explore the world of perpetual protocol perpetual protocol just released their v2 which is exclusively on an ethereum side chain on x-die and they also have plans for other future l2 road maps as well and they have pioneered the world of just like uniswap concentrated liquidity and that is the cool new thing that is all about perpetual protocol in its v2 implementation and we also go into conversations around perpetual's perp token and how it how it functions inside of the perpetual protocol ecosystem and also talking about how it got distributed which has its own unique

little story as well i really hope you guys enjoy this conversation and i hope you learn all about perpetual protocol before we get into the interview however we have to take a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible bankless is proud to be supported by uniswap uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on ethereum which is what ryan and i call a money robot no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy something brand new in the uniswop ecosystem is the uniswap grants program is now accepting

applications for grants we have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again dows have money and they are in need of labor if you think that you have something to contribute to the uni-swapped out apply for a grant to uniswap just look at the size of the uniswap treasury it's almost 3 billion this mountain of capital is looking for labor do you have something of value to contribute to the uniswap dow no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply for a uni grant at unigrants.org and help steer unit swap in the direction that you think it should go that's exactly what we did to get uniswop to be a sponsor for bankless and you can do the same for your project thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless balancer is a powerful platform

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all right bankless nation i am here with jenwen fang and nick tong yenwin is the co-founder of perpetual protocol and uh and nikon is the head of a strategy and a perpetual protocol came onto my radar when i discovered that they used balancer as a token distribution event and using balancers bootstrapping liquidity pools and i haven't actually delved too deeply beyond that other than understanding that it's a a trading suite of services for trading perpetuals as the name suggests but we are going to go ahead and dive into perpetual protocol today so jenwen and nick thanks for coming to the bankless meet the nations to go ahead and introduce a perpetual protocol to the nation thanks for being here thanks for having us

yeah thanks for having us uh so jenwen as a co-founder of perpetual protocol maybe you can kind of give a little bit of the background for how perpetual protocol came to be how did the team form where did the idea come from what was the initial inception of perpetual protocol sure um that's a long story so uh my co-founder and i we actually uh start i mean like um i mean kind of i fell down the crypto rabbit hole in 2018 so um at the time i mean ico of course of course that's uh very interesting like lots of people join on the boat but uh i uh we actually spent a lot of time i mean researching and

we found that uh building a directive in in i mean unboxing is very interesting because you know we really want to i mean in blockchain everything is a token so you know we try to find a concept that we can build a token on top of another token so that's i mean that's an interesting concept so we actually start with options so at the time we have you know we are trying out an option protocol but we failed uh we felt i mean the market crash of course but with i think we failed to have a compelling story about like how the option market will grow on blockchain around ethereum uh after that actually

uh because we talked to a binance a lot at that time so we ended up joining the binance lab which is an accelerator for crypto stops so we ended up building like you know accounting software at that time working with like accounting firm in san francisco um after a year um we're still like you know very interesting in the d5 space and uh we see the growth of the mi swab and synthetics in like 2019 they actually i mean well i mean we know uni swap at the beginning but uh you know we don't really understand the the the kind of the power of am

but after we see the you know the traction we actually kind of like understand you know am actually is a big part of the ecosystem so we actually pivot we drop that accounting software and then we go back to d5 and then we want to build a derivative am so we started from like 2020 we picked perpetual uh contract as the sort of product that you know want to build am on top of it so um so we spent like several months building this and then we um we launched it actually that's december and uh until now it's actually seven months yep so it's it's working quite

well we got lots of trading volume we have around like 20 billion which is a really high number i mean last year when we when we start you know we think you know we should you know it's it'd be really good if we can get a 10 percent of the finance market share at that time bankruptcy is trading i think like like 300 million per day but you know that's actually what we are trading right now per day so the market goes very fast and then i mean it's really i mean cool to see a product that we can grow to this stage yeah but uh i think that's a story for us yeah i think the the interesting about that

story is that you guys seem to not really have you guys didn't come from like a perpetual swaps background you guys were looking for something to build i feel like i feel like your story is a little bit of you guys are seeing the power of defy you know that there's something here and you were just looking for a financial primitive to like kind of plant your flag in and it just so happened to be perpetuals is that would you say that that is an accurate story an actor accurate depiction um yes kyle um i'm an engineer so you know i kind of like believe that i can build everything but i do have like something like financial background you know i like um i like the concept i mean like options or like other directives i build

tools i mean probably like 10 years ago i built like tours for banks for a brokerage house so yeah um yeah but perpetual contract is something we pick that's actually the right answer because it's actually the easiest one i think and and every time i have perpetual uh swaps and perpetual contracts explained to me i like understand it and then like i sleep and i forget it the next day and i feel like that's largely true for like the the average bank lewis listener so maybe you maybe you can explain perpetual contracts perpetual swaps what they are and what what kind of user in d5 would be attracted to this sort of product yeah that's a really good question so um

so uh let me start first so perpetual contract is uh i mean uh b-max actually kind of like invented this i mean back in like 2016 i think and uh why they i mean so uh at that time there is actually no like skateboard coin i mean they are you know bitcoin is big at that time and then there are some old coins and uh so they want to build this platform but um you know it's really hard to build a spot trading platform because everyone is on different channels it's not like erc 20 right now i mean most of the tokens are on ethereum so it's a totally different word so they come up this idea that um you know it's it's like futures but it actually expires per day

and then because you use kind of another concept the function payment the funding payment that try to make sure the mob price is aligned to the underlying but conceptually it's a it's a future that's expired very fast so so this financial instrument actually can trace any index so bmax actually create this and then they want to trade they want people to trade bitcoin but they don't really need to accumulate lots of bitcoin within bmax they don't need to have that underlying so that's the beauty of futures or perpetual uh contract so bmx i mean so they have

this platform they can trade any asset any crypto asset they want but they don't have they don't need to have online so the same for us as well so we are building on top of a sky or ethereum ecosystem but you know on our platform you can trade um dot you can trade bitcoin so we have like assets from other trend but we don't really need to breach those tokens onto ethereum so i think that's the most benefit that we have yeah uh i'd say the i'd say the other thing which is interesting is um that uh traditionally people have been looking kind of for leverage i guess and and before kind of perpetual swaps came along it was

either either you had to kind of borrow the asset like in in this case it's margin trading um and trade but then it's actually super expensive uh if you look at like the cost to actually uh borrow and so from like a capital efficiency perspective um perpetual swaps makes a lot more sense and secondly i guess it's kind of in between the from a complexity perspective um it's probably a little bit more complex than kind of like your margin trading but it's a lot simpler than like let's say options right like and so you can still leverage um and it's still kind of it becomes quite an accessible product to uh more regular traders which is kind of one of the key kind of vision that kind of the key missions

that we're trying to do is how do we make these products a little bit more accessible and how do we kind of simplify them so the average retail trader can can understand and can harness and can use it that that was really helpful and so um i really like that mental model of somewhere between options which i still don't understand and basic margin which is the easiest thing to understand um so let's and i know you guys have a bunch of cool stuff that came out in v2 and that's partly why you're here but before we get get there let's go through the user story of what it's like to use perpetual protocol uh and so um i'm assuming there's there's a collateral or perhaps multiple collaterals in perpetual protocol a what collateral is that and then uh say i have that collateral and then i come to

perpetual protocol what next yeah it's it's super simple actually so we have uh usdc as the collateral that we've that we picked uh that's just the one we started with um it was kind of the most popular one in d5 obviously um when a user kind of comes in they first they deposit uh into their l2 into the x-style wallet um that's still non-custodial all it is is a bridge from kind of their ethereum wallet to the x-style wallet we actually sponsor all of the gas fees for i think it's over 500. um currently so it's kind of free so you can imagine when gas like when guay was about like three four hundred um it's quite quite a nice thing uh once

that's done uh the user simply just trades um on purpose so they can pick let's let's say eth usdc they pick their um how much collateral they want to put on or how much leverage they want to do um and their position size and and that's it the system kind of handles the rest uh you press buy and that's it the the other kind of neat feature that we have is we're using uh bi economy right now and what that means is um the user actually doesn't have to mess around with kind of meta mask and um switching kind of the rpc and they don't have to go in and figure out like how do i add in xdi is a chain how do i switch to it um all they do is they sign a transaction uh a meta transaction and

then that's it the orders placed very cool very cool okay um so why did you guys uh choose x die was that simply because of the perhaps the lack of options that we had not too long ago um yeah kyle um so so we stopped not to speak anything badly about x-9 it's a great side but yeah you kind of put me in this position so so that's september so we actually we we have everything ready we want to launch last september but you know the best price at that time is like i think 300 500 so open up position cost you like 100 usd which is actually impossible i mean for

normal traders to trade so we actually ends up you know we we actually deploy but then we pull out from ethereum and then we want to find layer 2 at the time sky and the magic are the only choices that we can go with and we pick a sky because um the first thing is that it has it has been running for more than a year and then i think the performance is good and we have an engineer who are very familiar with sky so that's the main reason mac hits actually is work working pretty well right now they got a lot of traction recently um at that time they actually just finished their pos bridge so it's still being new

to our team and then so um yeah yeah but so that that's the reason that we picked skye yeah all right so uh nick unless you have anything to add on to that to that discussion uh i think i think i'd love to jump into this recent announcement that you guys have which is uh perpetual protocol uh version two uh usually in d5 we have a version one version two you guys have a creative name uh for this uh this version release uh tell us about uh what that name is and why that name was chosen um yes so um so we named this version curie named after uh merry curry because um i mean we want

to have a theme that you know uh to honor all the scientists that you know built everything before before us so um i think yeah i really like like it and um it's um and then the first one we pick is female that i really like yeah i think that um i think the whole ecosystem is mostly like i mean a male engineer so i i just want to bring like different elements in this yeah i'm sure i'm sure there's a lot of people who are are thankful for that effort because this industry could use more efforts like that so let's go let's dive into what uh curie is all about what is new with perpetual protocol in this curie update there's a there's a couple key pieces

for us i guess the first one is we're introducing this concept of private markets so what what that means is normally if you look at the current landscape most of the time to get any kind of pair listed or any market listed you have to kind of go through some form of governance vote there's some form of permission um to get things listed and that's for a very good reason uh because there's kind of inherent risk when you kind of list a market so if you kind of list uh a token that's only kind of launched on let's say you need like two days ago and it kind of goes to zero it kind of drags the all of the markets other markets down but with kind of uh the private markets what what that means is anyone can kind

of create a new market and it's isolated from all of the other markets that we have so we have this concept i guess of public markets and private markets and private is kind of uh isolated anyone can spin it up fully permissionless so that's the first piece the second piece is um that kind of reminds me before you move on that kind of reminds me of balancers public and private pools where they have these public pools which are connected to all the other public pools and then they have the private pools which are just like oh they have like they completely centralized completely trusted but at least they are uh they get to have that optionality of uh working under the parameters of a specific asset is that kind of the same mental model yeah i think the naming was was

especially kind of inspired by a balancer and kind of like conceptually that was inspired by balance result very cool very cool sorry to cut you off keep on going yeah um the second piece is uh so currently how how like the pricing mechanism works for us is we we utilize the uniswap's xyk model and so um as you can imagine it's not super capital efficient and so one of the big upgrades is we're actually utilizing unit swap iii from a pricing perspective as kind of like our pricing engine effectively um and what this means is we can start to kind of concentrate liquidity a lot more uh and so um if you imagine kind of like if we ran v1

and v2 kind of uh over the same time period we'd expect even more uh trading volume than what we kind of saw with v1 um and then the final piece is uh there's a lot of upgrades from kind of to get uh the protocol kind of on par with other centralized exchanges so things like uh cross margin um things like multiple collateral types and so forth so there's kind of lots of these small upgrades that we're also planning to kind of get the the feature set on par i think that concentrated liquidity element i think is really what sets perpetual protocol apart i'm getting the gist that uh you guys are in the same family as kind of like dydx you guys are

working on l2 i believe dydx also does perpetual uh perpetual trading uh but this uh concentrated liquidity element is is the new thing it sounds like and that's definitely something that that unit swap introduced as something that's possible and i can only imagine there's no reason why you guys also wouldn't introduce it into your perpetual protocol if your perpetual protocol is amm-based sounds like if anything that's amm based can also have concentrated liquidity on it um i know you guys just went live earlier this week but do you have any data about how much more liquid perpetual protocol has been in just the the short recent amount of time or is it too early to to to know this uh it's actually the announcement was more for um what we've got we have we

haven't actually launched it yet so it's been it's been in r d for a while um and we're hoping to get a test net up uh relatively soon and are you guys planning on launching on any of the new l2s that are coming out arbitrary recently opened its uh door to developers are you guys working with arbitrary that's correct we're we're planning on moving over the celebration awesome awesome uh and what about optimism or are you guys kind of just doing one at a time um i think it depends i mean um so we have right now we have this dependency that because we use uh uni swap e3 so we need to go to place at um you know where you can start is so definitely arbitrary and optimism

that we are thinking of uh um i don't know which one will come first but uh i mean like uh i mean i think they are both they both are really good design i mean there too so definitely want to try both yeah and uh so other than just like saving your guys's users gas fees is are there any other benefits to being on an l2 that is specific to a perpetual protocol platform um i mean everyone wants to be on an l2 because gas fees are expensive but i would imagine people people that are trading perpetuals are trading with more frequency is this true and so maybe an l2 is even more beneficial to you guys tell us about that relationship

between perpetual protocol and an l2 i think that like uh the the frequency of trades is definitely higher on kind of like an l2 and you can it's just it's just kind of infeasible to uh you basically price out like an entire market if you kind of have it on l1 especially back when kind of gas costs were so high like as young said like if you're paying 80 to 100 bucks for for a transaction like only whales can basically afford to do it um and and that kind of goes against what what we really wanted to uh achieve which is kind of this inclusion right so um definitely like we we we see that there's quite a lot of transaction

volume as well as kind of a lot of transactions themselves so um definitely l2 in kind of a very very low gas environment is beneficial yeah uh one thing i want to add is that the lowering gas fee of course is beneficial to the users but at the same time it actually i mean enlarge this design space for everything because i mean like uh i mean kind of like program traders they can build a strategy that you know i mean be so frequently that you know they can pick a price like every seconds or something like that so i mean it actually opened up i mean people can design lots of new things because it's actually faster

so that's i mean we actually experience kids because well on the sky so i mean people don't really care about the gas fee there so they actually you know they can try different things they can actually like place older every second and then you know try to build their own strategy so i think at some point of time we cook like you know 40 of the bandwidth of sky just because people can do whatever they want so i think that definitely opened up lots of design space for the traders for the i mean strategy builders so that sounds like it really sounds like arbitrarium or at least layer two in general is really going to become the main home for perpetual protocol rather than the ethereum l1 is that a fair

statement i i think we're just going to bypass like ethereum layer one altogether like it it's just impractical otherwise it will go straight to orbit for more optimism interesting so a perpetual protocol in theory might not even be able to be a functioning system on the layer one giving gas fees stay above like a certain threshold yeah yeah yeah and personally i i believe uni swap will be the same i mean most people will trade um papitron or optimism in the future because i mean the same thing i mean um you know you can trade more frequently i think that actually enable a lot of different things yeah that that we are we me and ryan on

on the bengals show we kind of talked about how we're all kind of packing our bags like our quote metaphorical bags and we're all going to go to the l2 um i want to get to the topic of the perp token but but i still have a couple questions left uh here so when you arrive on arbitrom uh and you're you go into the perpetual protocol ecosystem because you need to deposit collateral right so there seems to be like there's a contract on perpetual protocols contracts aren't arbitrarium so it's like a little ecosystem inside of the greater arbor trim ecosystem have you guys thought about anything like a perpetual protocol native on-ramps as in working with payment providers or or or any sort of way to get people's money straight into perpetual protocol rather

than having to you know get your money deposited to the ethereum main chain send it over to arbitrarium trade it for usdc what about just shortcutting right into perpetual have you guys thought about this uh i guess because because it's um we're not depositing into like a specific perp kind of contract uh anyone that kind of builds like a fiat on-ramp into arbitrary uh theoretically like it works for us right because all they do is they deposit it into their wallet and then they can start trading so uh we've definitely again not inside of your guy's scope now is it right yeah exactly if any exchange allows you to withdraw usdc straight to arbitram it's basically the same thing

for you guys right yeah hey guys hope you're enjoying the conversation thus far in the second half of this show we go into the specific token mechanics of the perp token in the perpetual protocol ecosystem how it relates to other tokens that you might be familiar with in the defy ecosystem and then we also of course go into the future roadmap for perpetual protocol what comes next in the long term innovation the endless innovation that is defy what is next for perpetual protocol before we get there however we have to take a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange i've been a customer of gemiini since i first got into crypto in 2017 and it's been my

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d5 money legos yield and composability all in one application on ave there are a ton of assets that you can supply to the protocol in order to gain yield and all of those same assets can also be borrowed from the protocol if you have supplied collateral here you can see me borrowing 200 usdc against my portfolio of a number of different defy tokens in eth i'll choose a variable interest rate because it's a lower rate than the stable interest rate option but i could choose the stable interest rate option if i wanted to lock in that interest rate in permanently v2 also features the ability for users to swap collateral without having to withdraw their assets trade them on union swap and then deposit them back into ave with ave users can do this in

one seamless transaction saving you time and gas costs check out the power of ave ave.com that's aave.com so like i said at the beginning of this interview perpetual protocol came onto my radar with your guys's token distribution event with balancer the liquidity bootstrapping pool fantastic mechanism that sounds like that went fantastically well um but but i'd love to talk about uh the the the role of the perpetual toca token in the perpetual ecosystem so i'm assuming assuming it's a governance token um but what does it govern over and is there any sort of a value capture mechanism that you guys have running with with the token so far yeah that's a good question actually we

are the first team to use the balance of lvp so we actually work with balance of teams so that's uh yeah i mean that's really a great mechanism that for like uh projects want to launch their own tokens yeah so for prop token uh definitely governance and the second thing is that it's a skating so you i mean if if you are a holder you can escape your token or contract and then uh once you escape um uh this kind of like um cooldown period so what you want to withdraw you have to wait for seven days but um but you can earn part of the fees from the proco so

that there is a revenue stream um and also we have like uh skating rewards so you can earn like a an extra reward from this uh that's uh that's our design uh right now because uh us um because our insurance phone so we have this insurance found that try to prevent that if like price moves too much and then we have bad dab and we have to pay for that so the insurance fund is not large enough so we kind of redirect all the fees to insurance on first so now we are not sharing that fees to the skaters but in the futures that i mean we we might do that so that um that's uh that's i mean the benefit for the skaters

uh but at the same time the skater is kind of like at us the best stop for the whole system so once the insurance fund is depleted i mean we actually will either mean more token or burns stakeholders token so right now we don't burn we just mean more tokens but uh i mean they are just kind of like the best job system for the whole protocol yeah this this model reminds me of like the ave model or even the maker model maybe not the maker model but the ave token model has like you know you can hold the ave token but if you want to you know commit to a little bit more risk by uh allowing your ave token to be the backstop in case of a insolvency event

for ave then you get your tokens uh you taken from you because you are the backstop but in the meantime you get extra interest payments or or yield out of the of a protocol this sounds like the same exact model are there any differences yeah i think yeah that's uh that's like like ninety percent that's similar yup uh we actually work with gale fighter i think um the fact is also designing the obvious i mean poker model so yeah that's uh i think that there are lots of similar reality i mean between these two and i think the only thing sorry the only other thing i would add is um in kind of v2 with the private markets um

because because individuals will need to kind of seed the initial insurance fund and because the insurance fund is isolated um basically individuals can stake their perp into that individual market and receive a percentage of fees from them as well so you can imagine it's kind of another obviously another layer of kind of risk or another increased risk but you're also then compensated for that as well right right right that makes a lot of sense and i always i really like it when i see d5 projects actually passing off cash flows to their token holders uh because i said that's one of my biggest complaints about like the legacy financial system is like there's not that much actual cash flow for a lot of traditional equities back to their back

to the shareholders right like amazon doesn't issue a dividend netflix doesn't issue a dividend sometimes they do stock buybacks that's the step in the right direction but like something i really want to see out of the defy ecosystem is just like clear instantiated on-chain revenues for token holders just to signals like yeah like the the value of this token is is very real and then also at the same time the other reason why i like this token model as well is is that uh the people that are being paid these fees these or collecting the value of the protocol are people that have risk right they're not just sitting on their hands they have risk at stake right and so the the people that believe in the protocol the most are likely the people that are staking and so the people that believe in the protocol the most are the

people that are getting rewarded for their alignment to the protocol i think i think it's an excellent choice thank you so uh i know you guys just have this a brand new announcement brian brand new v2 brand new products and i'm sure you guys are itching to get this out the gate and and uh you know uh into the hands of people who want to use perpetual protocol but what's next what comes after this like what is the long-term road map for a perpetual protocol yeah i think that's a good question so i think one thing that we want to have is that uh so we are building like this like decentralized system so we want to i mean right now if you look at ftx i

think they're your apps i mean the you know the liquidity they can provide is actually far away from us for better than us so i think one thing is that we want to keep up to that user experience i think that's actually the key that's one thing i mean even with b2 i think we are stuff you know we are skilled like that behind so hopefully we can we can kind of like um really like we can be on par with them i think that's the first thing and uh of course with that we have like permission market that the centralized chain cannot do i think that's uh that's the time you know we compared to a central exchange we you know this is actually a better solution you know not only this is decentralized

you know we have like all the gizmo decentralized cut risky but also like we have commission marketing lots of people like going through like governments so that's definitely the goal yeah the second thing is that um before you move on there before i lose that thread uh me and ryan we talk about how awesome uniswap is is because you can list any token on uniswap and unisop supports the long tail of assets as people call it it sounds like perpetual protocol does that same thing for perpetuals is that correct yes exactly yes yeah yeah just one that's just one of the most wanted to drive that point home i yeah i i will say like just to kind of hammer that point home as well is that you look at kind of most centralized exchanges and

kind of anything that kind of has a limit order book kind of design um and most of the time in order to list an asset you need to have a market maker which is another kind of gatekeeper i guess uh you have to pay high fees you go to london tokens uh it takes a lot of time and so you can imagine that um with our private markets that we're launching because it's an amm design a you don't need a market maker for it anyone can be a market maker um and b we can then do the long tail assets as you said very cool very cool um yen when you're i think you're about to go on to another subject before i cut you out yeah sure so i think the second part is that uh right now i think we are more like

unisop so the is it will be centralized so the team actually you know designing the things and then we implement so i think uh after v2 we meet i mean we are i think we are we want to be open a lot more open up to the community that uh people can i mean kind of like decentralize uh the organization to a dial kind of like that so you know kind of like um like like compound so they have this really great that every volts have to come up with a piece of code and then once it passes you actually deploy that code so that's definitely the roman it's on our roadmap and then we definitely want to have that

very cool very cool so i think my last question comes to the conversation of liquidity uh nick you were just talking about how you don't need a market maker with perpetual protocols or with amms like you do in a centralized exchange but you still need liquidity so how what's the liquidity strategy for a perpetual protocol how are you guys incentivizing and rewarding liquidity i guess the really basic one obviously is liquidity mining like uni swap i think they just came out um yeah um with with kind of how how how you can kind of do it on v3 uh but i think the other point is that one of the key reasons why i guess optimism and operation for us is kind of the composability factor so we can start and we're in talks to kind

of partner with other protocols and other projects and how can we kind of be the base layer um and other people either bring their own kind of market making strategies like fully on chain ones or people can kind of trade on uh perp through other kind of venues um and so suddenly we don't need to kind of do everything ourselves right we can partner with other people um they're the best in class for what they do and they can kind of bring their expertise in and build this kind of uh almost like an ecosystem uh around derivatives yeah how can other protocols use perpetual protocol as a money lego right how can other are there any um other applications that are building on top of perpetual uh perpetual protocol yeah we're in talks um with with a

couple actually um on how we can kind of integrate and work together but there's a there's kind of two general areas that that people can kind of build on top of us one is you can imagine around a trading strategy so how can we um how can people kind of trade on perp either through kind of um different kind of strategies that they can expose people to so uh if you think of like year and vaults and kind of the strategists building kind of strategies around that um and then the second piece is kind of how do you market make on on the platform so how can other people um so there's a lot of kind of like visor and charm and and a couple others who are kind of providing these these fully on change strategies to univ3 um how do

they provide that then to perp as well and how do we kind of bootstrap the the liquidity that way so um we think there's a lot of uh money legos i guess that we can do because we can then start to can we take a per market and take a uniswap spot market and can we kind of generate and create a strategy out of that that creates yield for uh users the design space is kind of massive uh when composability comes into play very cool very cool that that's that's that's exciting that's exactly what you kind of like want to see out of a protocol is is having a lot of surface area for other people to build on you uh well well guys is there anything that i forgot to ask or anything that you guys want to bring up or just something i

missed that is important about perpetual protocol that you'd like to discuss um yeah i think that's that actually that covers most of things that you know um you know want to do and then what we have done so yeah i think that um i don't have anything that's fantastic i love hearing that as a interviewer that means i did my job uh so guys if you guys want anyone in the bankless nation to join the community or find out more where should they go oh so uh we have a scorer so um i think you can just like search for perpetual vocal and then um uh you can be in the show

yeah youtube so yeah so most of our like our community hang out in our discord so yeah we'll come to this goal fantastic and uh if uh what's also the website if they want to actually go and use perpetual protocol what's the website uh it's per uh p-e-r-p dot five percent five perp dot five all right guys all those links will be in the show notes uh nick tong strategy lead jen wen fang uh co-founder of perpetual protocol thank you so much for coming to introduce perpetual protocol to the bankless nation thanks for having us yeah yeah thanks yeah cheers all right bank listing you guys know what to do go check out perpetual perpetual protocol there are discords in

the show notes the the websites in the show notes risk disclaimers eth is risky bitcoin is risky d5 is risky you can lose what you put in but we are headed west this is our frontier it's not for everyone but we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence we recommend joining our daily newsletter podcast and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your bankless experience you'll get access to our market analysis our alpha leaks and exclusive content and even the bankless token for airdrops raffles and

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