PDX DAO Localism Forum: Regen Fishbowl

Transcript

[Music] welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we are building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and it's published every Tuesday and Thursday if you want to learn more you can visit our website at Green pill. Network where you can download the green pill book for free join the Discord and become a member of your local green pill. Network chapter today we have a special episode that was taped at the general Forum on ethereum localism which was put on by PDX D in Portland Oregon United States so basically PDX Dow the Portland localism

Dow put on a forum on ethereum localism which is all about regeneration at the local level on Friday the 13th of October 202 three I attended this Gathering and had a lot of fun in the container that the PDX St created the intention of the Forum on ethereum localism was to create a container where the ethereum community can elaborate for itself in a plurality of directions what experimentalism in the city can look like for web 3 so one of the themes I've been thinking about in green pill V2 is how do we move from Theory to action how do we move into local spaces and use crypto to Bottoms Up regenerate local

spaces and so this was a timely event for me to attend this Portland event on ethereum localism because it means I got to meet lots of different speakers who are speaking on things like mutualism or what is called Kofi collaborative Finance which I'd say is like an offshoot or another lens on what regenerative Financial systems are so talked a lot at the event about um experiments in blockchain localism um Community Farms forests how local regeneration can happen cosmol local coordination um things of that nature so uh I may do a couple episodes of what I learned at the Portland event if this

episode goes well this episode is a panel that I moderated on regenerative Financial systems so the first voice that you're going to hear when we play the audio back is going to be one of the organizers of the event and then the second voice that you'll hear is me moderating the panel it was quite an interesting panel that featured many different members of the Portland Community you'll hear them introduce themselves as they come on the stage and just talk about regenerative Financial systems and what they mean to them so was an interesting conversation they got moving and uh created sort of a whirlwind of energy around regen or Kofi which is called collaborative finance

and um I think you're going to enjoy the discussion Val is an open Global Collective working to finance and democratize the governance of synthetic biology Technologies to protect the future of our planet research and progress into synthetic biology is critically constrained by the world of nation state regulations and bureaucracy from middlemen but the potential that synthetic biology has for the world is massive it can produce a world in total harmony with nature we can grow stuff using cells like software it's awesome and the best part is we no longer have to pull carbon out of the ground to grow and maintain civilization don't you think we should be funding this Valley Dow does and that's what they're here to do to try and make the solar Punk World of Tomorrow a reality today so join Valley Dow right now and save the planet

at Valley dow. bio yeah four panelists and if everyone could welcome Kevin auke back to Stage um after spinning up our qf round yesterday generously agreed to also be the um Socratic dialogue leader in residence for the panel that we have we be in discussion about regenerative Financial systems and it sounds like we're going to have a regenerative Fishbowl element TVD here we go yeah it was proposed that we do this as a fishbowl so for the first 30 minutes we'll just hang out and have a normal panel uh but then after that we'll Kevin will give a signal of some sort he'll make that up and the go and then uh at that point if you guys if anybody in the audience feels like they

have something to share uh there will be an empty chair here for you to come up to so uh there'll a signal and if anybody wants to come up and join the panel then you can and we'll just kind of keep rotate rotating through um yeah sounds great um so yeah the first half hour of this panel will just be us discussing and then we'll move to the Fishbowl format so the subject of the panel is regenerative finance and uh the five of us are going to try to take you through a view of what is regenerative finance and what are we excited in that space so U I'm very excited to facilitate the discussion maybe we can kick it off with brief intros 30 seconds or less from each of you go ahead hi I'm Julio already introduc myself I work on

crypto common Association common sub we're going to launch a common economy road map uh sociologist by background into blockchain since four or five years very Marxist that's it uh hi everyone I'm vengi uh I started in this space mostly as a designer uh full stack designer ux UI uh in mechanism uh and helped start a bunch of dows got really into the Dow and then uh Mok Dow helped start mullik Dow raid Guild metac cartel Dow house yeah min mini Dows over the years and today mostly more focus on the philosophy side uh of decentralized coordination yeah I um fedix uh I'm a

co-founder of the crypto Commons Association and the commons Hub also um doing my PhD in political science on narratives around common Centric uh protocols and mechanisms in web 3 so how do communities speak about what they do how they make sense uh for themselves and how do they speak about it to towards the outside uh I'm Jeff I think I've met a bunch of you here now um I do a lot of my work with uh block science doing sort of computational model of complex systems helping the people who do that um I try to translate what they're doing into um you know language for other people to understand the value of these tools um my entry into the

space was through the common stack uh which was uh in theory a toolkit of composable module modules for commoning fundraising decision-making Dynamic preference allocation that kind of stuff also a big mushroom geek if you haven't noticed yet um I find these really interesting signal processing mechanisms um they're some of the oldest evolutionary algorithms on the planet they're constantly at the edge of ecological succession um and huge transitions geological shifts uh and I think we can learn from them and use these new substrates of design for uh better more responsive adaptive systems at every scale so I'm really excited to be here and chatting about all these ideas with you guys what is regenerative Finance to each of you is regenerative

Finance even the right aperture for what it is that we're doing here why and why not maybe a for like 90 seconds or less from each panelist goe it's not fair that I am the first it's a very bad position can't beap during the so it's more difficult question it seems because in the crypto space now regenerative Finance is the intersection of crypto and climate so the crypto protocols that are trying to address climate um collapse so how do we build a more regenerative economy with uh the right incentives so that you we match economic value and ecological value instead of now in which these two things are completely in the opposite

direction um for me for us at um common sub uh we have a more broader perspective meaning that uh uh regeneration is not only about the climate but also about the social Dimension and even I mean doesn't make sense to to say that one is more important than the other but yeah they are both equally important so for us um yeah calling it crypto Commons or collaborative Finance or IFI or I mean is the same class of actions to regenerate uh the planet and then to create a new economy which is regenerative itself and so like restore regenerate democratize

socialism yeah thanks Julio uh yeah same though I mean I think like the first thing that comes to mind for me like why would I even think about or care about regenerative finances uh you know how can we make the entire idea and system of Finance more reciprocal to its environment and part of part of the ecology um more responsive ecological value um you know one of the I was in Croatia recently and U someone called called our current system the single token system and I thought that was very uh Salient uh in that you know we all kind of no matter what that token is I mean although for most of us it's USD even not in this country but across the world uh so I think there's a uh

significant radicalism required in rethinking the entire concept of uh finance and money uh shared money shared Finance in a way that you know yeah Works uh uh more uh cybernetically sound philosophically sound uh with u with the biosphere so to me regenerative Financial systems as Trulia said go beyond carbon trading schemes or or offset trading schemes schemes um as uh well as the most developed aspect of refi in crypto so far because the carbon is easy because you can standardize it uh you can build Global Systems and you can build well mostly you can build Global infrastructure and uh build them

as low hanging fruit and reap the benefit of being first one such as or the most backed one as for example flow carbon um for me regenerative Financial systems are are much more about creating mechanisms um that generate upward Spirals and this works for me much more in the local and in the concrete uh than in in the abstract and and Global level uh it's interesting to think of these systems on multiple layers sometimes where you can have um a refi product but a Fiat token economic model and I think there's something there's a Schism in the sort of like fractal design pattern if we're doing agent Centric technology

then we should Empower agent Centric issuance of credits we shouldn't have to require the I I think this is um maybe I'm getting into hot takes already I'm sorry um but the some of the requirement of our token ecosystems today is they're not actually serving the people on the ground necessarily they're serving the validators first and the regenerative Farmers second and that's not you know a fault that validators are important that's the security of the network that's why it's there um same thing in Bitcoin all of these systems require the beneficiaries the people that we should we are building for to buy into these systems or um somehow subject themselves to these systems so that they can then earn and I think the most interesting

thing about REI and a lot of the focus here is this composable modular uh aspect that it's a toolkit to customize in your own way and I just I think we're so early that we're seeing these um each branch coming out in thinking oh this is going to solve it and then when it doesn't or when there's a blow up or when Adam Newman raises more money than all of us combined uh which is really kind of annoying um but I I think these are all facets of a larger elephant that we're feeling you know REI is one facet and Kofi is another facet and I would step kind of meta and say Mofi has been this troll of the Kofi movement and I think it's Kofi works because Mofi proved it

over 500 million years of of evolution on this planet and it's why we're all here as well um so all of these facets of this greater sort of um onology of and making sure that exists at different layers of the system so I love it all right we're only 10 minutes in and we've gotten to my celal finance so that's great all right next time uh I want to I want to challenge the panelists to emergently decide who's speaking next uh instead of going linearly down the line let's inject a little bit of uh creativity yeah autonomy into the into the panel the next question I have is what are you

excited about what project or idea could change everything where are the high leverage points where is the momentum 90 seconds or less let's go okay I'm oh you're going first yeah because because I want to take it'ser like this um I want to throw the Kofi bomb I am very excited about Kofi collaborative Finance I don't know if anybody here already has heard about it who heard about it Kofi okay basically using scientifically and systematically uh M um credit theory of money and credit tooling instead of using Fiat money and crypto money which seems like the local Cooperative doing

Motor credit with with the consumers so nice so wholesome but actually it's asan Bookman is trying to to advocate for we can optimize the whole global economy in a massive way if we study if we we use the Art and Science of the payment graph so um using network science to to study the value flows in the economy the existing ones not the one that we want to exist and the one in which we want to put a token into and then asking to the people and projects if they want to use the token to cancel out a lot of trans actions because actually you don't don't need to do so many transactions as today you can identify which are the regular

patterns in the economic systems and um just use credit and there are tons of credit tooling structures let's say I just have 90 seconds so yeah I think that that's the real um game Cher because it can be the mass adoption for crypto to go into the real economy and optimize everything that's happening with the blockchain the best of blockchain and the best of the addition of mut credit that is happening since centuries if not millennum so that's it mergence convergence yeah uh all right uh emergently um yeah I'm excited about putting uh these various mechanisms that uh we start uh seeing popping up uh

putting them into practice in an experimental setting and for me that setting is uh the valley the common subub is situated in we have several challenges there biggest one is that the village is dying out biggest employer just shut down um young people have no reason whatsoever to stay there uh have no jobs have no social tissue and that needs regeneration or the village is over in 10 years so for me I'm very excited about deploying um some of these mechanisms such as uh cortic funding uh Mutual Credit uh local currencies a clearing protocol and mutal stakeholding for example in the context of our

village to try and regenerate the local social tissue and economy and then in a second step from that on um also regenerate nature around us which has well faced the biggest wildfire of 100 years in Austria just two years ago has lead poisoning of much of the soil around us and several other challenges that must be faced in the next decade or so yeah on local money I think one local currencies uh one kind of project I think that I'm really excited about that maybe we're not ready for yet but it's really awesome which is like if Rye if anybody's familiar with Rye uh which is like a decentralized stable coin that's not pegged to any Fiat uh therefore

nation state systems which you know would allow the whoever is running the that monetary system to kind of underlay whatever values are their values right without this like inherent uh critical uh interface that is Reliant upon a nation state and then Ry just recently kind of forked itself to create high Hai uh let's get high.com ha hai.com but uh yeah yeah but it's it's Barry was always was was always meant to be like not a global Sable coin for you know oh this is a replacement to the USD it was never meant to be like that it was meant to be a uh you know a protocol where that any locality could deploy their own issuance of of of stability designed for their

own purposes unattached to input whatever collateral they want in there uh set whatever monetary policy they want and it just stabilizes itself basically dependent on those parameters so I think as a super micro Point uh but that's like in the toolkit uh for like local money I think like decentralized stable coins obviously uh flat coins uh have been talked about but Rye basically is a flat coin so yeah one of the actually I think I want to shout out Hollow chain is one of the things I'm most excited about in this space and and that type of um agent Centric architecture but also the um the model of issuance the agent Centric issuance actually having done some work with uh

art Brock and Mary and uh emine on different aspects of research algorithm for uh pricing Hol fuel works it takes into account productive measures of the economy and measures them against the financial measures of the economy and you can kind of get this really interesting growth of productivity and financial input without a speculative price increase and I think there's really interesting ways that we can combine these signals of value that we can sense socially but we can't sense uh on markets at least the markets of today and we can create new sort of sensemaking structures that can take in different inputs and impute Community agreed price that we will buy and sell

these four and create some tether to real value in the community based on whatever it is you're producing rather than needing 500 million participants in a Global Network because your Fiat token needs to pump uh and that's the only thing that's going to get it there is Shilling and scale uh of empty um mimetics that aren't the real local productivity so how do we make these work on uh Community scales and I think there's a lot of interesting new tools coming out in these ecosystems to make that happen all right well no one said quadratic funding so you all fail I did I did I'm excited about bringing qf to it's just hard to pronounce really my tongue guts in knots

radical I heard R all right all right well um I'm wondering if we could next get a spicy take uh give me an unpopular opinion I want to taste this spicy I want to taste the jalapeno pepper on my tongue give me a spicy take that unfolds on my taste buds like a fine wine and at the end I want to see mullik in my mind's eye no pressure but give me a spicy take whoever wants to go first I start in my opinion I don't know if it's so spicy among people here in refi maybe uh refi seriously needs more uh implementation experimentation and

way less virtual signaling woo wasn't so spicy every in your mind's eye but that can me I did yeah here x uh I say it as a true supporter of refi as a movement and we are been contributing to refi Dow refi spring since the beginning and we are going to refi week in uh Portugal at the end of October if anybody is interested to to join let me know but I I agree with Felix and um my whole take for the FI space is that we should recognize that 90% of the projects there have fundamental flows in their

economics model and in their political model meaning uh what is the Assumption behind it and with the first I mean that I see yeah 90% of them being sustained by narrative and hype and um matics was mentioned before which is a component which is not irrelevant it's important to be there but if you don't have economics model that is makes sense it cannot work and yeah regarding the political assumptions let's say the assumptions that um carbon credits or biodiversity credits or that uh compensating the damage that economic agents are doing to to the environment will be something that actually works

and change the system that's naive at Best in my opinion I never spoke about this in public because I don't want to be the the salty guy I salty now but I was thinking about doing this uh I don't know uh social exploitation Credit in which I don't know corporations that exploit workers can Finance uh Union work or Finance uh does it make sense anyway like no it doesn't make sense but why carbon credit make sense and social exploitation work credit doesn't I don't know that's myot yeah l mine's really short the regener revolution has always been my

celal spicy uh I think one thing that I haven't heard talked about too much in this space is uh like who's familiar with hypers shirts for those who don't know and this is going to be a terrible explanation because I don't know that much about it but it's you know basically like uh being able to put Place incentives in the future and then fund them now uh so like we can place outcomes future like uh you know this this Forest is regenerated to this level to this state like a future state that we desire uh and then we could start funding activities that are leading up to that now uh and then you get like these hypers search for funding those and then in the future uh you know there's they're uh they're presumed to be valuable um because of the the actual ecological value uh that was accounted

for and that's really cool uh but we should be really really careful with uh placing such and incentives so far into the future because the system will have changed by that point uh and if we and if we're place if we place immense incentives on these future outcomes that we today see as being good it could be a runaway incentive train where like things could end up happening that we don't actually want to at that point in the future so we should be careful like Rocko's Bas basilisk if anybody's familiar with that it's like the same way it goes the other way too if we may think we're placing good incentives now and it may be but so adaptivity at at all scales basically is what's

required now I feel guilty for my hot takes no um I want to um yeah there is a lot of um public goods Primitives that are being developed now that are super cool and I think that despite the past Critics on like carbon credits or Market incentivization uh I still think that a part of the economy will develop in that direction a lot of economic agents will behave and think in that way in that logic so uh even if it's not our favorite way of changing the system like I don't know building carbon credits marketplaces and infrastructure for think that somebody still should do it and yeah we should have all the spectrum of economic agencies in for what regards

the Regeneration of the planet so yeah also these things we have to build them all right well I want to invite all of yall into the discussion from here so we're going to do a Fishbowl style which I just learned about 20 minutes ago but the way it works is that someone sits in a chair and then the person who's been on the panel the longest will then take a seat in the audience and so we're going to rotate through people from the audience up here onto the mic and uh let's just yeah let's let's let's invite some play into it and and play the infinite game together so if someone wants to come up and take this seat please do and uh is it the rule that the person that comes up gets the mic uh if they want to yeah yeah if they're no no

no no they deal in order of arrival like that sounds like too structured yeah yeah we don't we don't know that yeah not necessarily immediately but they come up to talk so you know if you compelled sir to speak then I think you should speak here here's a mic I'll I'll just uh since I stepped up I'll have to speak I guess uh at first figuring it out yeah so um and I've never done this either but hypers search sound really interesting and I I think there might be a mechanism for exchanging them in the future and saying okay you get credit because you played the game so far but the game we want to change the rules to

to meet local conditions or time-based conditions in the future and create some sort of exchange rate so there that might be a solution to that but uh what I wanted to come up for was to inject into the conversation the notion of reputation and trust and economics of that and a question arose in my mind some time ago trying to figure this out through introduction to ethereum and this trustless economy and it became clear to me fairly quickly that trust was necessary you can't have a trustless economy even the Silk Road understood that so how do you replace

debt which is this like abstract destructive malakan uh energy and thing that's like moving us forward in it kind of an infinite spiral of down because debt needs to be serviced and it's almost like an exponential thing if you feed it with free energy which is hydrocarbon based so how do you replace debt with reputation can you have some sort of reputational system that encourages the growth of good reputation based on human values in a community or ecosystem I really liked uh Emil's from Emil's talk earlier she had

like this quick diagram of like three layers of I made a little drawing I'll show you later uh but the bottom layer was like very very local peer-to-peer and that was like very trustful you know it's a very trustful Network and then at the very top is the global layer that's that kind of requires bit more trustless uh cuz there's so much collaboration required across distance right uh and then in the middle of that there was like a layer of dows um you know so like in that middle in that middle land I think uh cuz like when it's really trustful peer-to-peer you know uh we don't really need a lot we can do a lot of things very quickly and trust each other uh and then at the super high Global layer like this trustless stuff is going to help uh but I think one

thing that I like about that middle layer is the trustless tools like Dows uh like it's trustless technology you can put M like we can all put our money into a trustless smart contract and none of us have to trust each other and whatever uh but what happens is you know shortly after that like we could be you know from uh all the way around the world and not know each other and that'd be fine because it's trustless um but very quickly after that we'll all be in a dow doing things together and building trust so like that's what happens in that middle lay is these trust Bridges from that like local peer-to-peer and to the global or at least one side of yeah I think we've got the tools at our hands we've got the tools that's why I'm here I'm so excited about it and to feel this

new energy coming back out of The Last 5 Years of a train wreck is is great but how do we how do we take what you're just talking about and turn it into a system where it's kind of regenerative and it works at a distance um I mean we could do this locally I mean reputation is human a human thing that was designed you know by the melum to to create communities how do you turn that into a global kind of decentralized version of itself um that is incentivized to like I said take the place of debt servicing debt two things I want to say uh the first thing I think your issue with depbt is rather an issue

with interest uh than depth in itself the other thing on reputation Global reputation to me doesn't make sense reputation is contextual so it's not Global it's not abstract it's concrete it's in concrete settings uh that you have reputation towards someone with regards to something um so that's specific I think that reputation for us is is relevant as uh primitive for creating networks of place-based communities and travel and exchange between these places so I want to get to a point in next uh 3 or 5 years uh to be able to see the reputation someone got at tdf in in Portugal or Lial Village uh

without having to know that person and uh being able to uh react to an application of them coming to our place based on the reputation they gained uh in these contexts but these are specific contexts and they have meaning for me uh as I know and trust these other projects yeah um actually I'd like that it's come up a few times already about not um beating the current system at its own game but um perhaps even evolving uh beyond the Bucky Fuller um and I think debt is one way of creating money and it's kind of been copied and pasted around the world uh the way that central banks create money out of debt would effectively you know decentralized that in some sense to private Banks uh 97% of

that money is created by private Banks um which basically means we've allowed Banks to intermediate themselves between us and our communities of trust the fact that I have to go to a bank and ask for money to buy a house instead of coming to my network I mean it's really annoying for me to have to do that because you all have to come up with the money uh to give me the bank doesn't have to do that it just creates it we that's trust and we can create that for each other and I mean there have been different um manifestations of this peer-to-peer lending popped up online it was really interesting for a while of course at this kind of scale uh especially on the internet when that came up trust reputation was issue it got regulated to until it's basically a bank and that's one of the

choke points that they have as regulatory you know even we see it in in Defi and brii and all of this um kyc so I think what we're on the cusp of is a plurality of different forms of monetary issuance and we now have new substrates and new tools for different sandbox experiments and a lot of them are failing and it's great learning you know we've done all of this every economic thought uh has probably been an experiment mented in some way within the past 20 years and some of them have spectacularly exploded and people don't learn and they probably will continue to explode but this is how we iterate in uh scientific and Engineering Frameworks we build on those we build that into our models and then we know for next time

that Mutual Credit issuance is a far more robust Dynamic issuance um of tokens rather than Fiat issuance most there that's my hot take for aukee most crypto tokens are Fiat uh they are minted at some point some of them are put on a a liquidity bootstrapping pool or pushed out in different ways but um there are huge bags uh that could tank the market at any moment and there's responsible dealing of with that but I think Dynamic issuance will just allow us to move into a much more emergent and pluralistic way of issuing currencies that we still have this debt problem and I think I hope we can transition out of it but I think it's a fundamental systemic way way that we

issue money and it'll change yeah what he said good stuff uh I think you run into two things here uh one of which being what Jeff just rightfully pointed out is around creating economic plurality right in terms of the Alternatives that we have to the traditional system right so we're developing a lot of mechanisms out there that allow us to connect uh our resources and leverage them in new ways but really kind of refin ing those mechanisms into themselves understanding what how that type of system tends to operate and then starting to stack these things on top of one another is what enables us to move away from the you know single system that we're stuck in

and I I like to describe this as a spectrum of money right where if the existing money we have is green well we're not getting any green and really what we're focused on is adding colors to the pet right giving us more Avenues to go through from what we've got to what we want and so then it becomes a a conversation around communicating around the types of things that we're trying to do and we need a more robust way of expressing not only what it is that we're trying to accomplish in terms of the outcomes but also the how right the methodologies that we're using and you know kind of the standards we hold for ourselves and how we treat you know the humans and nature Etc there's some really interesting work that's been

happening this year uh developing something called the ecological benefits framework they have a website that's introducing this uh can you change the future.org it's cool tool that's being developed to introduce typically the the the funders side right the buy side to a more expansive way of thinking about regenerative Finance right breaking out of the tunnel vision on carbon and including other critical elements of a healthy Planet specifically there's six I'll just name them right air water soil biodiversity equity and carbon So speaking through that kind of a pluralistic accounting set right allows us to express more

about the kinds of things that we're trying to get done and then having the menu of alternative Financial mechanisms and channels that are available to us to draw on as we need as the system continues to collapse helps to matchmake those capabilities it seems like we have a much richer set of capabilities to expose signals and attach them to monetary value and how we use that is a big question so I kind of want to Sid step monetary uh conceptualizations for for just a moment so uh I've actually been working uh outside of neighborhoods on a project uh that uses this uh schema called value flows and basically you

know you can Define all sorts of resources you can Define agents and stuff like that but so you go like further a field from like technological solutions Let's uh go back in time to like the year say 1,100 in what is now known as Peru and uh we'll go to the uh ta taanu Empire all you probably know this as the Inca um and so what they actually had was this really complicated system of these NS kipu in uh in the language and uh the people that uh kept these knots were the kipu Kakak and so they had this uh actually really intensive

system where they would have multiple of these people who are essentially accountants who would be split up into this incredibly hierarchical system from like all the highest parts of the government all the way down to all the different local regions and they would keep track of all the things that would need to be created for that Empire right like you needed clothing you needed all the different kinds of foods you know your beans your uh corn your uh quinoa you know all these different things and they would basically have the system of being able to fulfill obligations to their neighbors their larger scale neighbors across the entire Empire and they would record all of

these obligations that these people had in the kipu and as the obligations were met the kipu kamak would tie some knot and basically say okay you have met your obligation so you know if you if you step outside of you know the monetary aspects of it you know what are we really trying to do we're trying to help each other survive right we're trying to help all of the trees around us all of the little animals around us all the insects that are important for pollination and small animals that are also important for pollination to survive so you know this this is uh probably a different way of thinking than we think right now because we think of oh I have money this money is what enables me to do what I want to

do as an individual but we need to shift to well what are our relationships with each other and how do we reorient those and uh reify those to survive collectively yeah that was like the single token system comment that a lady made in Kisha was like that like once that that that unit is there to measure and count we all just go straight to it and bypass all the other things about just basic uh meeting basic needs or obligations right exactly and we and then we get at that layer where we're just only designing that number and how to use the number and how to count the number and all these things uh but and to your point you know we should have lots of different numbers and uh they don't all

need to be numbers at all uh potentially so yeah that's kind of what I meant Also earlier about we need like intense radicalism to get out of this single money uh box that we're in to actually get yeah any of the places that we're talking about getting to yeah and it's the difference between a system based on domination right a more masculine oriented system where it's top- down control versus a more feminine approach to economics and a system of you know Partnership Center for um partnership studies it's Ron eisler's organization did some amazing work on the care economy and common metrics for measuring it across a bunch of Global Systems that have done that F that like forever ago so it's would love to go check out on

that yeah what got up what got me out of my chair to come up here was just feeling like the word decolonization needed to be said um and I so appreciate you bringing this in because you there's not only so much that we can learn but also like so much internal deprogramming that needs to happen in order for us to address things at the right level and so that's yeah that's really all I wanted to say it was just like because it's the water that we swim in and because it's reinforced by like go out in the world and like the artifacts of the way the world is right now reinforce a story about the world that gets us to enact that story that it's it's a really deep process of internal introspection and

also like re- indigenizing ourselves by spending time with indigenous communities or spending time on a Vision Quest I've I've seen like I really think technologists and particular should go on Vision Quest because there's these world of abstraction and then like you you go and look at the syntax of living systems and you're like wow we are so far from the way that living systems actually operate so yeah just to talk about Vision Quests for a second you those can be very very simple like for a lot of people it's actually just going and sitting out all by yourself for 4 days uh you know no water no food just understanding what your needs are as a human and your connection to the place right um and so that's it's really

simple you don't need to go get high anywhere um um but yeah and all of those other medicines do have a place and they do have a context in Social uh like cultural context in which they were used and I think it's important to honor that thank you I will actually quote you because you said before that we cannot wait for someone to come and save us and I just think and also connecting to what Scott was saying something that we are seeing with the local notes at REI da is that regeneration has to come from the bottom up like there is no one that can just come and tell you what to do like oh you need to plant trees to save your city because when you live in a city you

know what are the problems of that place you are leaving them you are suffering because of them so what we see with these communities emerging now and that we can that we are very happy to help with funds and the knowledge we have is that they come with problems that we didn't even think about like we didn't know that the problems of coffee producers in Costa Rica is that Costa Rican people don't even drink coffee from Costa Rica because that coffee is exported and they import coffee from Brazil and that because it's cheaper so they they end up drinking coffee that is not even local like you don't know that if you don't see that and if you don't talk to local people so this is just one example of the things

we're seeing and I'm really inspired every time I had I have the chance to to peek into these local problems and be there to support them without being the Savior the project who is going to save the world you know we're just there as a support mechanism and it's absolutely inspiring so thanks yeah I just want to Echo that uh and this is something that I've been uh consistent in bringing to people in this space right taking this technology first approach and kind of falling into those traps is like this is not a technology problem right it's really a social problem this is organizing the community and really rebuilding the social fabric of trust which has been eroded over the course of

capitalism and now into late stage capitalism and the rise of global Fascism and fascism will continue to emerge in the void right in the suffering and need that humans get left in right unless we are more effective in and organizing better systems to outpace it we going to talk about toilet paper really quick go for it please speaking of so um uh I have a friend uh and she's been um working with um this the squala farm in Australia and uh they've been trying to like regrow some of these uh trees in this forested area and part of how

they're funding this is by essentially producing toilet paper um so they'll take some of the trees and they will top them down and then they will ship this all the way over to China and then China has the facilities to produce the toilet paper which then gets shipped back to Australia so you know one of the the interesting things about this is like you know we we all use toilet paper right I I'm assuming but um they be um you know everyone needs it but not every place is equipped to actually produce it because it actually is a very water intensive process you know making paper can be very intensive so you know not every place is going to be equipped with

all the resources to be able to do this so yeah this this also just goes back to that problem of like how do we organize all of our capabilities and resources and relationships in order to continue having the things that we have right now so that we're not going out and foraging leaves which I don't know you know we could have compost toilets right human toilets and stuff and and just use leaves instead of toilet paper but you know there there's there's there's options yeah wastewater treatment is nice that somehow relates to sitting here that toilet paper conversation okay so just quickly my perspective don't know much about crypto coming from like

27y old the system's obviously crashing what's new incredibly curious and I just want to emphasize that lens right now and then like if there was I don't know I'm really interested in like oh could I sign up for a membership so that I can have this like database in which there's a value system say that cuz this seems to be like a core of values that like soil healthy water like things that tie us together in that like church or like foundational value system which unites and then if I could like I would pay for a membership to be constantly informed so I'm just coming from that lens of like oh my gosh this is great I'm seeing all the layers but like getting really grounded and being like I don't just a girl but that's the energy of like I can

also Imagine like boots on the ground work like if you need okay like I had two questions either one someone like me like how could I put insert my energy and boots on the ground like physically going to different communities in which have those shared values and like doing personal research and like if those fit that criteria value systems that that would like go on the list of like soil yeah water Etc the things that we collectively agree there and then I would come back with research like a bumblebee like oo poll anden or two and then also we'd be like somebody would come into that Community to educate them on ethereum and crypto Etc as an alternative approach to enhance and

Empower their system or second to that start up from like from zero if I myself was like in the position where I'd be like oh I really want to start a Cooperative now I know who to access or like who who to call upon for X Y and Z yeah so I just wanted some perspective for what advice you would give just a girl trying to see this like where to start from this point forward I first thank you um like I feel this the spirit of where you're coming from and it's really inspiring and beautiful and um I I've been on a track recently of like feeling

how so many organized religions have not achieved a more beautiful world and yet and despite all of the like beautiful aspects of so many different Faith Traditions that I've studied it's like where is that sense of participation that sense of like it's it there's a quote from the Bible that by through by thy fruits they shall Know Thee like where is that Spirit of like a Civic religion where the way that we practice our faith is by showing up and caring for each other and planting Community Gardens together and getting our hands in the soil together and I do think that there is a there's a need to have more of a sense of radical solidarity with people who see the world differently

from us um that there's something unifying about water and soil that goes beyond you know is someone a conservative or a progressive it's like if you can actually be have your hands in the soil together some of those labels and distinctions become less relevant um and that's what I want to see more of and I know that we're in a time where like polarizations are at their Peak and there's so much reason to fear and hate but my sense is that that this kind of Civic religion of like being in community together because of a sense of mutual care and responsibility is a way to kind of heal those divides yeah I think in terms of like just getting involved and like understanding where you can like I guess dip your toes

in there are some people that I've known like in the regenerative space that are trying to create like a a directory of uh people that are involved in that stuff but none of those projects have really taken off or they haven't been finished rather so it's they're just really small databases right now but yeah I don't know I just looking at your community like where can you find a place to get involved just talk to people andx PDX do yes PDX that's right that's the local community here yeah so yeah that would be a great place to start I yeah I have some ideas too so I'm I live parttime on a farm that's about an hour and a half from here and and that's what we're

trying to do over there to actually grow food and take care of the soil and the forest and butcher animals ourselves so we can see where the food is coming from and hold events and community and basically develop relationships and web those relationships through actually doing stuff together like cutting vegetables and making sauerkraut and processing food so that's the part I'm interested and I saw that there's other people here who are involved in land projects so I'm I want to connect to all of you like you're doing the thing in Austria and then Tony is doing something in France right so I'm curious about how because I'm actually I'm a crypto skeptic I don't I want to see how it

transforms into real stuff rather than just conceptual things and and um since this was going to be about regenerate Finance I'm also curious about how we can fund thing things like this space like I I offer the space for a year so there's nobody has been paying rent to using it for the last year but um um but the the year is over and we don't have any funding for next year so I'm not sure what's going to happen on the experiment and also I'm trying to do the same thing at at the farm where at a farm we have Airbnb and like events that do some funding but it would be a lot cooler if we could fund it with um people who want to come and stay for a

month and like actually experience what it's like to develop a relationship with the land and like have an integration with the land and actually support us in continuing to show people what it's like to touch grass and like grow food and do things like that so I'm curious who wants to do stuff like that and use all these conceptual Frameworks and fun stuff and all the spiritual stuff the animism and the new religion you you guys you benam you're talking about how to integrate all the levels the spiritual level the the Food Level everything so yeah so does anyone want to help

organize something on uh gitcoin as like a grant for the space you submit on ground there it is submission to the qf round that we just started yesterday great please share the links of the stuff you're doing in the group so we can all see them and the telegram group y there's a separate channel for the GU RS on telegram now and I'll St all L for in there so you guys to midra and then when contributions open we'll also post another at who on letter with but to onra that graphs so how about the telegram very nice discussion um

Benjamin Point actually made me think about the medium large hot take of mine regarding regeneration and changing the system so we uh as a movement we are starting or we are promoting and encouraging uh going into places regenerating land creating local communities uh all these kind of things which is amazing sometimes though I I look like a big big picture and I I see these efforts are very small impact which is okay because like they're not only regenerating land but they're also activating Community uh plugging into Global networks and create M movements super cool I just think that sometimes

we we tend to limit our attention to this context in which are like uh privileged in a technical people because they can in a technical sense meaning that they can do it privilege people that decide okay I we go outside of the city and I go to this regenerative place and this is the biggest impath I can have and maybe it is if you can do it but uh billions of people in the world at least two I don't know one two billions people in the world lives in huge cities and they cannot live so they have to live in the city and uh one we have to conceive strategies that include these millions and millions of people that live in the city in very shitty cities and they cannot all take their families and go into traditional Factory

unfortunately because there is no space and so regeneration should also consider these people in their non- regenerative context at all and also being aware that uh even if we engage other uh 10 Millions regions and we take uh a million Echo Village and we we create them and reg generate this land still for system change in appropriate time frame we have have to politically mobilize the majority of the people on the planet and enact political changes which will stop and then alter the course of environmental destruction so yeah just to to make sense that like it's good what we are doing it's very nice and if you if you could you should

definitely go into a regenerative Village and live there and do stuff but also there's a huge amount of struggle which is going on in the cities and yeah that's a different thing and that's very relevant and I think we are a bit overlooking it yeah to build on that a little bit and then also respond to kind of the question of like what do I do how do I get involved um it got me thinking of just like how fundamentally important for us as Builders building these new systems how incredibly important it is to make them accessible and that's accessibility not just in like you being able to use an app or having access to in all of those things you know and the design is really important but also down to like the fundamental how do how how

can people who are interested in getting plugged in and having their voices heard and have something to contribute how can how can we make that as easy as possible and that's from like my experience of kind of just dabbling around in in just Dows out there right just poking into discords and seeing what's going on and how can I contribute and I run into a lot of I'm like how do I do something and like I I've just run into a wall of like trying to get people to explain to me how I even contribute to it I'm like okay cool I'm going to go on to the next thing um and that is that's not that's not great that's not great for them I I believe that's not great to have people that are wanting to come and contribute and not be able to do that and then also

zooming all the way out to like on a structural level right um there's systems all the way up that exclude um that that are you know difficult often difficult to see difficult to address um that are underlying all of this and like addressing all those and looking at all of those um is just like so important to get more voice in the room um and to get the people involved and get people involved that can contribute um so it's something just want to plant that seed of something as Builders and designers like we should be thinking about the ways to do that thank you I I wanted to build on this planting Meme and uh plant a little seed of Hope Julio was talking about cities and uh I met this

incredible human uh at climate weekend New York Flavia bagard uh she's a sort of climate activist turned lawyer didn't really feel at home being a lawyer but still kind of used that to gather a group of a thousand climate lawyers in in Brazil um to sort of you know start collectivizing together um and then she she was telling me she recently got asked to lead a project in sa Paulo uh the largest city in Brazil uh involving the stewardship of the three largest green spaces along this like Main Avenue through this largest city in Brazil and I think she's you know quite possibly you know made for this she's really called into it and she's got this playground um to activate um on this real connection these are beautiful

green spaces they've got like native trees that you know were there originally and sort of like the tiny tiniest little outposts in this 10 km Square radius but it it's a it's a little seed of hope that I found in the context of Brazil which is the G20 chairmanship next and so we'll be uh involved in uh sort of maybe setting the agenda for some of these new economic Frameworks they've got the sort of cop 30 in uh 2025 and so there's a lot of potential around that I see legal hackers as a legal hackers Community I got connected to through uh this community that uh I was involved in um helping to nurture of uh lawyers technologists and policy makers in over 200 cities around the world just like a

totally decentralized chapter-based Network and gather you know the leaders gather every year you know there's there's a few gathers around legal hackers they're called yeah yeah and so and again it's just one of many I think of these sort of mycelial communities that we know of where there can be these intersections of this kind of energy in person that then spread like you know through that cosmol local uh capacity and you know to think that they you know Portland to South Paulo and and and back again and you know all across you know it's all it's all connecting up and you know you see the quickening happening so just wanted to drop that little seat of hope I'm here repres presenting different projects so that's why I came

on stage again and I heard what you were saying Ryan so um I'm speaking on behalf also of the founder of urbanica Umberto that couldn't be here today much love thank you so talking about hearing multiple voices and having multiple people in the room and hearing them and hearing the communities and really giving the voice to people who might not be part of this ecosystem because this ecosystem is quite exclusive still um we have communities around the world that don't have access to Internet and if they do they maybe don't have a fast laptop they can out open the Discord they don't know about Twitter they don't speak English so um with urbanica urbanica is uh the common Academy let's call it like this and it

gives the tools to Neighborhood to coordinate and take decisions and really act and take action in their neighborhood so what we're going to do um hopefully soon also thanks to gitcoin and the quadratic funding um is start a 2-year Journey throughout Latin America in a bus bringing the course to local communities there live and really giving them the chance to be heard and be part of this ecosystem in Spanish I'm learning Portuguese Brazilian from Brazil just for that um and because I love learning new languages but uh we are what we hope to do is visit 40 cities and having more people more representation in this room and make it

less exclusive and bring it to people so uh for whoever would like to follow this journey which will be long and it will be very interesting um it's urbanica on X hopefully we're going to use also some other platforms like the neighborhood platform I'm very interested because I think it connects so well with the ranas mission so yeah just wanted to share that thank you for for sparking the idea thank you so much help I'm just trying to synthesize some of the conversations that have been floating around and talked about what can we actually do um here as individuals how do we take action and uh the limitations that crypto has so far

in producing Real Results for more regenerative local Monies hearkening to Howard Silverman's talk this earlier this morning about uh with the dynamical systems approach to commodity systems um with the conclusion that we needed to prioritize local currencies or they needed to prioritize The Producers instead of the consumers one question that I want to pose is what sort of systems architecture for those currencies and what should we use and what kind of mechanisms should we employ in those to guarantee that producers are benefited over consumers uh yeah okay so I'm just going

to represent value flows for just a moment um so yeah I mean there's not a whole lot of Technology around it right now uh there is a team that was working on some stuff around this carbon Farm Network I think it's based out of New York out of the Hudson Valley area and like what they're trying to do is basically um they're actually more uh engaged in like uh engaging designers of like clothing to use local fibers but in order to do that they have to engage with all the farmers in the region that produce you know like uh alpaca fiber and uh like sheep fiber like the wool and all of that stuff so uh they're really building up this whole

like Network view of everything that's involved including all of the supply that the farmers would have and you can actually see like you know this is how the alpaca is sheared this is how like it's it's all washed and mil and then finally turned into the actual like yarn that you want to use so you can see like okay this is all the work that goes into it this is all the transportation that goes into it and this is you know essentially the full you know value chain of of how it gets to you and you could essentially look at that and compensate everybody that was involved in that Network in a way that would

hopefully work out for everybody but I don't know like one of the things that I think about in terms of like our existing systems is also if we did charge like the right amount for something to like actually benefit the producer would we be able to afford it currently like like even food so that's a big question I have yeah um uh sounds like that response to that architecture that we need for local currencies is a deep understanding of local context the local production the logistics those networks something that's really nice about bringing in local context is that it it has value in different ways in in different uh sort of spheres so when

you've sort of contributed in a local context that that recognition will have a you know probably a greater value in that specific local context when it's when it's when it's seen as part of for example a hypers cert or some other mechanism of legibility that you have done a certain kind of contribution in in um and you know there's different ways of having that legibility whether it's a knots or sort of social context it's part of how people introduce each other in the mai context they speak of the Mana and uh that's essentially you know their power and I'm going to I'm going to get this um sort of in a reductionist way but the essence of it is what you care for and what you take

responsibility for and that's how you sort of meet each other and gain each other's respect when you first sort of enter into any kind of interaction whether it's transactional or not and I think um this is one of the I think the spaces for opening up these conversations around what a a local maybe more sacred economy can look like when we're thinking about that kind of relationality as the foremost thing uh rather than the transactionality and the the the exchange of some physical good is sort of almost a part of the sort of wider communal becoming with that isn't something that is accounted for in the same way as rather you know the

relational in the energy of the interaction that is actually the thing that you account for that you really read as part of what a local sacred economy can look like and then you know obviously at the cosmo local sort of interface you can have these boundaries that are again legible to these outside maybe more single token Financial Frameworks but the idea of what that boundary can do in terms of protecting I think is this key question that we've not yet quite been able to solve which has allowed this internal universal solvent to essentially come into localities and buy up property and create gation and just do all sorts of things with even politics and buying you know through corruption and various other means like the kinds of

regulations that enable them to do what is beneficial to them in that wider system and so thinking about those boundaries what we can do at the policy level what we can do in our terms of private law private agreement private socio sort of political Norms around what it means to sort of interact locally versus you know allow something from this uh Cosmo sort of space to come in uh I think designing those boundaries designing these apis for these exclosures I mentioned yesterday this term that we're just still playing with schol answering to to the question I was thinking um how to in terms of U or on boarding for your organization in the

traditional model like for example the startups model you have a small team which is like very close because like you have these four people maybe and they have to do the plan for the whole year but you cannot really engage with a network networks of contributors because it's like the work is very structured on the other way what we are trying to do is to be a very open and very loose network of uh projects in which there are a lot of entry points for anybody to contribute in many different ways and I think that uh that's a very good um metrics of the success of your organization the degree and the vastness of your openness to the outside world

yeah meaning that a lot of different categories of people can contribute in a lot of different ways that should be the goal I heard your question of how do how do we or how can I um incorporate some practices to understand like this range of like this technology and this kind of structure into like this human value based emotional spiritual realm that creates this system that seems so cold and put it to use in to into that human form and how do you how do you navigate those worlds and I come from more of the

technical world and I've built you know these systems and tokenomics etc etc I can say a few humanistics for the people on my side of of of that Spectrum if you can create a system for the most vulnerable in your community then that's going to work for everybody and one of the cornerstones of doing that is a framework of consent so if you look at a framework of consent that means you have clear communication you have a kind of a negotiation you have a negotiation about power too cuz usually there's power imbalances in in human

relationships and consent is really that framework that you need uh for these systems to work and if you think about like what that means and those pieces that you need in order for that to work then you can turn those into a system that's more mechanistic so I think that's a good heris for designers people on the doing the technical abstract building of a system that's supposed to serve people yeah I think it's especially true um if you consider that we have the vast majority of the technology that we need already there's not like a lack of organizational tools we just have to bring the majority of the people on the layers progressively so yeah I think

there's too much focus in General on creating the new the new thing instead of the biggest effort which is taking all the things that we have and make it really distributed for everybody going to have lunch [Music] right all right we just heard from attendees of the Portland PDX General Forum on ethereum localism that were part of the Fishbowl panel that I hosted on regenerative Financial systems I'm excited about them because of the

diversity of viewpoints about regen web 3 what it is doing and how it is going thanks again for listening to the green pill. network podcast again we are building a coordination a network Society thousands of hackers dreamers and doers bringing positive some digital systems to the world if you value our work please make an offering to our algorithmic overlords And subscribe R and review it really helps the algorithms promote green pill and promote the regen web 3 movement to a broader swath and we want to build this movement so so that we can regenerate the world thank you so much for listening peace and love I will see you next time