The Path Forward with Ryan & David

Transcript

bankless Nation it is uh November 14th Dave and I have been doing these live streams for you doing another one today just to talk about everything that went on last week without question David last week was the craziest week I've ever seen in crypto which is saying something out of 2022. I'm just like maybe we'll ever see in crypto God I hope so I hope so yeah I hope this this feels like I don't know how there's no bigger thing that that could like be worse right like coinbase could collapse but I'm betting that it's not going to uh like there's no there's no bigger thing like it had that had to have been the fine the finale of 2022 right the grand finale

that was the fireworks that was it so we're done I I it's easier from here I mean you don't know that but it feels like a good bow on what was a terrible year in crypto good bow a terrible a bow of terribleness on an otherwise terrible year in crypto um well we've got some things to unpack I think so part of this is um this story has uh I think the events have settled down a little bit even though SBF is still like tweeting out like he's a Zodiac Killer I don't know what the hell is going on with that man we could talk about that if we want to but part of me is like I don't give me I don't even want to talk about SPF right now I'm tired of giving him attention yeah yeah like so but but

for people who aren't aware he is just tweeting out like letters of the alphabet maybe one by one by one yeah what h-a-h-a-p-p-e I think is so we're we're really I think yeah yeah p and E came really close after each other we just recorded a podcast and last I was up to see I just can't look away even though I don't want to talk it's like a train I still want to know train wreck what he's typing let me uh let me look up his Twitter account so is he spell he's spelling what what happened so yeah I can't imagine what other what other word yeah what happened with the end why why even bother man psychopath yeah I don't get it is he in control of his uh of his Twitter and he's just is he doing this for

what what's what's motivating this guy at this point I don't know he's still he's still in the Bahamas right no idea and that's been unconfirmed either anyway I mean people we there's some things that we can't confirm I think the purpose of this episode is to talk a bit more about um what the state of the industry is like I think that's the overall confusing Wick what what is the state of things I don't think we're in I feel like we're in this period of time where like it's Monday we're starting to see like announcements so it happened on the weekends they happen on on the weekdays right and so we saw uh Travis kling's Ikea guy ikigai uh hedge fund VC fund uh he had apparently the whole fund on on FTX uh everything on

FDX yeah everything on FTX block five just sent out an announcement saying hey like we got nothing we have to seize operations sick right uh and so fun no longer uh you actually had some funds on FTX Ryan did you know wait I do well through blockfi because they did right oh I'm super loud oh sorry chat I'm turning myself down um uh and so like I think we're in this weird state where like we're starting to see the the contagion Fallout uh and so like but the story's starting to end and like the industry's starting to have conversations about how to proceed forward I feel like we're in that like in between phase right now where like the story is still here but it's coming to a close uh and now we're

now we have to think and like reflect as an industry as like all right what the hell do we do about this let's talk about it and I want to hear what uh what the bankless community thinks about it too so we got a chat window open we're gonna be looking at that yeah and uh some other comments from the community to uh to get into I want to hear more about how your perspective might have changed too um the just the general mood in the crypto the feedback is in general I think we got to talk about where we go from here so guys uh stick with us this is a live stream David and I are doing we'll just go until we run out of things to talk about uh but before we get there we want to thank the sponsors that made

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crazy time in crypto unlike anything we've experienced it I want to ask you this question as we you know kick things off uh so it's been about a week all right so it's a week in a day since SBF you know tweeted is a famous tweet about ftt and selling that and um I mean it's easy we didn't CZ excuse me and we did it he tweeted over the weekend it was it was like Monday which was uh Sunday Monday it was uh when uh FTX stopped processing withdrawals we did not know at the time of course that um FTX was 10 billion dollars in the whole insolvent we didn't know that this guy was running some kind of a charade was you know um lending against investor money

basically using depositors money to to you know pump his own fund and to plug holes we didn't know all of that you know and my conclusion on on that whole thing is like 10 billion dollars is an insane amount of money do you think all of that went to alamina because as far as I'm concerned I was listening to Brian Armstrong on the all-in podcast and Brian was like I knew coinbase's Revenue I knew ftx's revenue and it didn't check out like he kept on like buying all the things and so like I'm kind of like dude FTX was just like Sam's slush fund to do what the hell he wanted you see that like 40 million dollar apartment that he had or a penthouse that he had in the Bahamas actually okay I saw

pictures of this but I didn't get a time to like it's like I I want to actually go through the listing and take a look at that but yes I saw that among other things which has been uh I believe put up for sale right yes 40 million dollar apartment in the Bahamas he's just like chilling in the Bahamas wasn't he yeah yeah yeah um do you have that photo oh of the of the apartment yeah I'll go get it yeah uh I think I put it in our Discord um let's take me a second uh but like I don't know man he like I I don't know how big the hole in Alameda was but I again like I said I don't think it would can be 10 billion dollars big and Sam was just like buying everything like left and

right as much as things as many things as possible and so like he just had no like just uh discretionary like nature about the funds and he just used customer deposits to buy whatever the hell he wanted like I I think that's going to be uh uh the conclusion to this whole thing there's something psychological about like there's something deeply ingrained that um would cause somebody to do that um I know by the way uh it was late last week vitalik tweeted out this kind of thing that you know true vitalik style where he sort of separated SPF the person versus SBF the public brand and the Public Image right and his comment was like SBF the public individual the runner of FTX uh deserves

a lot of the the slamming and the dunking and the vitriol and the anger coming at him right because this is a 10 billion dollar hole that probably set our industry back years yeah and yet he balanced that with SPF the person is still a human being worthy of value and respect as all human beings are and he was hopeful that SBF had some family and friends that were supportive of him um it's kind of how I feel and this is I don't I'm not one of sbf's friends I'm not his family members I can't speak to the person but the public individual sambagman freed that screwed our industry over and pulled one over on us like I I guess I have entered the phase

and it goes in and out for me where sometimes like do you know how you're supposed to go through the stages of Grace grief sequentially right and there's like anger but for me I've been going in and out of sometimes I'm sad and sometimes I'm angry and I go to sad and I'm angry and it goes back and forth right now as we're streaming this at this moment moment I'm pretty pissed I'm angry like why like look at this man this is the uh this Singapore house wait Singapore uh Bahamas Bahamas okay Bahamas excuse me this and that see this is the thing like like he had the this whole like you know New Balances and and all effective altruism

and like plain old t-shirts and then he owned this thing I don't even see Sam as the person like giving a [ __ ] about stuff like this I think that's because that's his con man that like he conned us into believing these things no I don't think he like I'm saying like I don't think Sam cares about a super fancy apartment I think he is just like playing life like a video game and trying to score as many points as possible so if he buys Twitter he buys his apartment like can you see Sam sitting down on that couch and like watching that TV like no he just cares about owning a 50 billion or 50 million dollar like apartment just because he wants to check that box

like it's a little sociopathic yeah he's just kind of leveling up treating the world like a video game yes and some kind of like you know private MBR instance and everyone else is an NPC yeah I guess I guess so and I think like he had and so the other thing I learned from the uh the uh all in pod was that um uh tremoth when it was thinking about investing in FTX uh and shamoth like and his people like gave them like a two-page two-pager as like recommendations and one of them was like set up a board of directors AKA like you know have some adults in the room uh and there you know what the response was from from SBF to Buck off what yes that was the response

just like two terminals yeah and he could well that had to be a red flag big French flag yeah right and so like I guess Alameda and FTX like Alameda and like the Caroline girl uh like I don't know it was just like Sam and his friends who like got access to a billion dollar like money printer and they're like hey what do we do let's buy this 50 million dollar like Penthouse like this is some this is Wolf of Wall Street yeah this is like Wolf of Wall crazy yeah yeah so how have the events of last week changed your perspective on things ah it's like so like there was the moment in the weekly rolled up right that like everyone knows about uh and and like the bank list like Universe when you yeah

yeah yeah exactly yeah and like everyone was like why are you getting sad like this is C5 this is exactly emblematic of like what we're trying to avoid uh and like defy literally fixes this like this is why we're all here like Financial system by code and math and and I think I was just getting frustrated just like it's just like a bunch of like narrative storytelling and I believe it but like we keep on building all these cool defy things and then we like run over to FTX right like there's just like a moment of just like and we we joke that like you make money in crypto by going through your second cycle uh not your first cycle like your first cycle you take pain and then you

have lessons and then use you make money the second time around well if that's true like you make money the second time around because you're dumping on the first people right and so like it I'm just like cornered by this fact that like there's no way for this industry to like move and progress forward in a way that like doesn't harm people because like how do we learn as an industry like not your keys not your crypto well where did we learn that from Mount Cox right like all right well now we're learning that like cross-chain bridges are bad uh because we'll lose money there and it's like we only seem to like learn the lessons and actually apply principles like by losing billions of dollars and that was just like frustrating that that I um when we were recording that I was like you know trying to give

some some thoughts on this but like in the back of my mind I was like oh SPF just broke David like do you know like you're you're one of the most enthusiastic like bullish permeable people I know right in crypto and about the space not just I it's not like just dollars price in your eyes right it's actually like you're excited about this technology uh and excited about the good it can do for the world and I think I saw like as you were talking like you doubting that not necessarily for the first time but like maybe in a fundamental way I hadn't seen before and it was funny because um actually you know that Molly White episode that we

released yesterday where she's like web3 is going just great right um and we recorded that a month ago and we did the debrief on that I remember you talking the debrief about um you know Molly white uh sees crypto as like like crypto is like a whole bunch of turtles born on the beach right and they're all kind of running for the ocean right between Turtles are born but only a few are actually gonna make it and your comment then was like and Molly is really concerned about the turtles because she's like there's so much pain there's so much stuff like why do we have to let Turtles die right right and um that's I think what we're seeing right now right and it's like painful like the the turtles are getting it's like it's like D-Day man they're blown

up all around us the turtles are dying and they're just little baby cute turtles Right and why do they have to die why does this have to happen why can't it be why can't we just all make it to the ocean to get we're all gonna make it do you remember that thing yeah we're all gonna make it we didn't all make it I was always suspicious of that I just um I was on board with the GM thing but that we're all gonna make it I was like oh I don't I got I got news I mean it's nice to say but like someone's not gonna make it um okay and also like why does that have to be true and like well this is why we're all mad at Sam is because like Sam killed like like all-time highs in like turtle deaths like he killed the most

amount of turtles like after we after we had Celsius and three hours capital and like and like yeah it was like the drones just yeah scraping the turtles foreign about this because I don't laugh then David's gonna uh get emotional again yeah yeah the chat's gonna make fun of me yeah the chat's not being very nice right now um but we'll see that's never nice yeah well it's been nicer there there's some there's some antagonists in the chat right now so how have the events changed your perspective then like last week I know how you're feeling but like this week it is it a fundamental shift are you like I mean has it shaken your faith in what we're doing here it's made me understand Bitcoin

maximalism a little bit better it's like it's made the the last week like made me feel very extremist or like want to become an extremist well that's interesting yeah and so like I'm serious about what so like I previously would have called myself like a bank apologist right it's like in the in the future crypto world uh that I see there's going to be a broad variety a broad spectrum of quality products and some of those are going to be centralized and some of those are going to be decentralized uh and just because humans are Folly and we have spfs of the world and like Bernie madoffs and like all these centralized powers that do all the bad things that doesn't stop the existence of good quality centralized products that exist out there the centralized products are

allowed to exist like I believe Brian Armstrong is great personal hero I think coinbase is great um but like now I'm like well now I'm just like no I do trust Brian but like at some point it's like there's after you start trusting Brian like where do you draw the line and if you want to trust Brian like all right you'll trust like uh I also trust Gemini I also trust like nexo but at some point like you're gonna add you're gonna add too many people into that Circle of trust and you're gonna have one bad one and so like at some point like I can see like the polarization of bitcoiners who are like not One Bank like not one ever uh like one is too much one is too much

compromise you don't ever compromise on values right and so I can start to resonate with that like a lot more like the shelling fence has kind of moved back where you're like rather than it's just the the policy should be a hundred percent bankless all the time right and as soon as possible you get your funds off of that exchange I mean like so I had a conversation with um my dad over the weekend he was like what is happening in crypto right I'm like well okay so and then but he's like well I have some and funds on coinbase sure should I take them off acquaintance right and I was like that you probably should yeah I'm not I don't think I don't think coinbase is going under right as part of this right I um but we don't know do we this is the thing have

you been up to date in this like what do you think of proof of reserves we're talking about the how it's changed our perspective on things right um but how has it changed I guess everyone's perspective on this let's let's talk about some of the some of the players so crypto exchanges themselves this hasn't just been a hit to fdx's credibility all crypto exchanges yes everything centralized yeah anything centralized anything that cuts these private Keys is under tremendous amount of scrutiny and I become like a bit proof of reserves right like or you don't deserve to hold any of our private keys right audits are audits enough

proof of reserves proof of liabilities as well as part of that is not I don't even know if that's possible proof of proof of lack of liability I don't even know if that's possible so we're back to Auditors we're back to trusting it but like FDX was audited they were uh armenio was one of the Auditors is not like yeah before but it's like one of the top I mean they were audited um so it does it does kind of it does kind of galvanize you to in like um militarize you to be like well we should like back to back to bankless full Bank list right um used to be the policy of like bankless overtime plus plus the things that get you there yes plus the things

that get you there and you don't have to do it all at once because don't lose your private keys and there's a lot of risk over there but now I'm just like I am weighing the risk of keeping anything on a centralized uh exchange very high um we're gonna have some funds in this process yeah I've never lost funds I've never lost funds ever well okay in 2017 I got fished for a fake Iota wallet that was my only time really yeah other than that I haven't you click an email uh I was I was spitting up a new wallet and I was like I need a new Iota wallet so I went to an Iota wallet generator but it was just like I just sent my oh yeah Iota to light their wallet yeah trinary code do you remember this a trinary code that was one of their things yeah it was

like we're basing our uh no the dag the dag yeah the dag the dags yeah right all right so but that's the only time yeah so I um had a little bit of funds on um uh Celsius previously remember because like I try these things and then also block fi and I kept just a little bit on there even after they got bailed out I was like oh okay well may as well not well that's never coming back didn't block if I send an email today kind of confirming I'm just my email yeah but if I sent an email saying hey like we're ceasing operations don't deposit my money yeah yeah have you noticed like the crypto Industries just feels like at each other's throat right now like

everyone just feels super toxic oh yeah dude why the hell is that no this made me sad it's like I know you were yeah uh because we've been we've been attacked in the past like yeah we got we got like the we got to stay golden in here who's like uh in our chat saying like oh this this video is brought to you by FTX even though we've never ever had an FTX as a sponsor and like up up only had FTX as a sponsor but I don't blame them in the slightest because the whole thing is like the industry got duped sponsor we've had yeah I mean could the Winklevoss twins be rugging us now like right I don't think so but I can't say for 100 certainty right yeah right Allen feels guys like bankless loved blackfly also never had block fly as a sponsor uh

it's they're just looking for people to tie to the stake and Burn yeah like I guess when like we lose like 10 billion dollars as an industry like people just get like uh they they don't get they're growing the pie mentality uh and so like we've figured a few communities I've triggered a few communities like the the hex community and the did you ever have block five as a sponsor no we never never play as a sponsor no never learn from the haters you promoted so much too much garbage yo what what garbage did we promote tell us what garbage what garbage we have not one there's not a single bank that sponsor that has lost a dime of bankless listener money don't say that David yet knock on wood I mean guys we just try

our best I mean like what like what are we gonna do we um we're very judicious in terms of the sponsors uh we decide to support um we've recently made a uh a sponsor decision so at the very at the very beginning of bankless uh we would not do anything with centralized custodian companies and I think the very first centralized custodian we started to sponsor work with as a sponsor was Gemini and why it's because I'm a Gemini user your Gemini user as well have been in the past yep there are a few exchanges probably that I would consider that I like you have to trust something you have to look you have to get your

Fiat to crypto yep all right you need an exchange I don't know how else you do that uh there is no other way to do that right so uh uh Gemini would be like was a sponsor I'd probably do something with Kraken I trust them recently to get my Fiat over to crypto I'd probably do something with a coinbase never done anything with uh FTX right um the very first time we decided to do something with a borrowing and lending um uh centralized company was uh nexo and that was because they had survived everything up to this point right uh we have and then also Juno you know that um also an exchange with that's also a bank

that has like crypto Powers Yeah Yeah it's because I have like look I have um coinbase I literally still have a Wells Fargo account yeah and I have I don't know how many accounts we have for um Bank lists as a um as a company right but like they've kicked us out of Bank of America because we have interactions with crypto and so we're at like small community credit unions like we have to use Banks right in order we can't can't go fully bankless yet like I wish that were the case this is a journey it's going to take a decade or more right for us to get all the way there so we support hybrid Solutions along the way when we can right that said um I think that you talked about being uh militant yeah

um I think that's very important for us to not support centralized institutions moving forward when there's an alternative yeah I'll make I'll make some exceptions to this so for example if it's an exchange if it's doing the Fiat right to uh crypto totally need that totally understand that there's no way around it but if it's doing like lending and borrowing unless we have some sort of proof of Reserve System without without proof yeah that includes some sort of liability right or some super strong audits right like and then that should be qualified as well maybe that's not even enough like we need some real certainty there uh in order to ever

work with a with a partner like that again um the other thing I'm pretty wary of right now David is um staking centralized States taking custodians yeah yeah I mean can you imagine if FTX was like staking I don't know 10 percent of ether right now like what would that what like what would happen right if that was the case right that's a major attack Vector you give up your private like so decentralized staking providers are really important here now what what are your thoughts on this yeah I think like I don't have too many thoughts on like the staking element but I think like you you have to have a bank a crypto

Bank coinbase Gemini whatever Kraken to go from Fiat into the crypto world and I think like at this point like this is what we're it's ironic that like FTX was in the Bahamas so they would be outside of crypto regulation and so at some point you kind of have to tip your hat to like regulated entities because of this is what regulation does uh and so like me like crypto banks that are inside of the US I feel like is a acceptable line to draw uh maybe but what what happened to FTX us is that still here yeah apparent I don't know how that I thought that those were separate too yeah did you see the Tweet about like uh spf's dad is like a like a

Stanford like tax uh tax person and then and then it had like after I'm gonna I'm gonna butcher this I'm gonna go get the two it was it was pretty funny uh can you uh I'm gonna post it into uh this is part of the uh conspiracy theory stuff about SBF being it's no it's it's less of a conspiracy theory here can you share your screen on that one yeah it almost feels scripted that element of it dude this whole thing feels extremely scripted oh wow yeah I have seen this what are we looking at uh I don't know if you're sharing the right one you're just sharing your notifications oh actually uh stop share let me share it there this SPF uh what was the Tweet say SBS father was an expert in tax shelters and

a professor at Stanford law on entirely unrelated note this is ftx's corporate structure dude that thing looks like a motherboard man yeah it does uh that's crazy look at all of these entities I can't even like I can't even read it yeah it's insane it's absolutely insane yeah So Okay so we've lost faith in centralized institutions or centralized custodians and by the way I don't think that's Nest I don't think that's a bad thing right um like um it's a bummer that we can't have both yeah bankless playing innocent is hilarious still got sponsors I see yes sponsors are how we pay for the show yes we have sponsors yes we have sponsors we will I mean the way up uh Bank list

makes revenue is through sponsors and then through subscription yep remember fees that's how we make Revenue grow business we have um eight folks on our team and Counting we're trying to build you know uh incredible products we actually have a new product to announce probably that's coming maybe this week or next week we'll get that announcement out I mean like we're busy like we're trying to grow this Mission and so yes we have a revenue model um but okay so that's centralized exchanges what about Regulators what do you think they do in the wake of this okay so this is what has made me optimistic is that like even JP Morgan

just now uh wrote some article saying like hey like all of the bad things that happened in 2022 in crypto was because of centralization and like I actually think that this is a moment where we are actually able to go to the regulators and be like look at what happened it was a regulation shitty regulation inside the United States that made and the enabled FTX to go offshore and do all the offshore things and it was centralization it was been the same things I I'm optimistic that there is a moment where the crypto industry the decentralized side of the crypto industry and Regulators can come together and do something useful for a change see that's that's some of that Hoffman optimism yes yes I'm optimistic

that this is Faith I think we have a better we have more evidence and more talking points and this is an educational event that we can take to the regulators and move forward with did you see this uh by the way uh so I was feeling like that like a sad thing is Sammy killed Define the US on its way out right right the Wrath Of The Regulators is coming right so uh Jake travinsky I asked him what do we do did you see his thread here oh I didn't see it I thought it was like one tweet I didn't see the thread oh my God fire he wrote this whole thread what do we do Jake The Regulators are coming they're gonna squash us Jake says we tell the truth we explained that this wasn't a US regulatory failure or a flaw in the

technology it was a historic fraud perpetrated by a con man in the Bahamas we uncover in detail exactly what happened honestly and ruthlessly to lay bare the crime in full we take responsibility for not calling out the red flags for not pushing back we help with investigations we show how open source public blockchains offer an unprecedented ability to root out Bad actors we take it upon ourselves to use this technology for what it does best increase transparency to mitigate risk to eliminate untrustworthy third parties we make proof of reserves a top priority we restore the principles that brought us here don't trust verify not your keys not your coins we focus on education for newcomers the very first thing we teach is self-custody not which coin will make

them rich quick we teach them self-custody we teach them how to go Banquets I'm like no there's nothing new here we've been doing this Right Back to Basics yes there was something you said in the weekly roll-up um it was like there was a moment in time where crypto really put forth values first and we had some like memes that you chanted which and it was like uh protocols protocols not Kings or something or code people code not Kings yes exactly we've yeah thank you this is why this is why you're a meme artist and I think like just like we 2021 was just like a bunch of bull market Mania where we forgot about that

stuff like that that's a king yet you still show nexo we are was were we not clear yeah we are not working with nexo moving forward yeah which is a shame for nexo because like they're doing just fine probably yes um but we're not working um it's like there there's the whole defy chant of 2020 and 2019 was like all about that right can you say it again so can can you say it he said protocol is not people code not Kings can you say it again can you say it again for the for the people code not King like okay so we forgot that we forgot in 2021 we forgot that it was nft Mania board ape season yield farming and I think we forgot all

about it and like you know it's just it's like we're just it's the crypto industry we're just here for that and I think like over the next like year or so of like we just drill that into people's heads Justin said no you guys forgot about that stuff many of us did not forget about that stuff by the way I'm only reading uh right now chatter from uh like the YouTube army that's about the the evil Army and there's a lot of a lot of supporters obviously uh do you think we forgot that do you think bankless forgot that David yeah there's like a decent amount of just like the content treadmill is like pretty subsuming and so like all right like it's Monday I gotta get another podcast out the door we're like What are we gonna talk about uh and like when

you're in in it it's harder to like stay zoomed out and I think that's really what has like What's um I was doing this weekend I was like zooming out a little bit but like also at the same time like there's only so much content you can make about that right like I don't know man I feel like we did a fairly good job about that like one one asset that we've always been like um accused of like talking about price too much is an asset I make no apologies for talking about price oh ether asset is ether right yeah I mean it's the whole unless ether has value like the security of the entire network goes down right I mean like I personally maybe I I don't want to be defense I want to be

introspective here but personally David I think we did a pretty good job at that yeah um but you're right there is always the Temptation we weren't militant about it right and so like that's why I call it called it like yeah I've been like a bank apologist lately a bank apologists now the least Bank apologist of I mean like I don't know I I guess I guess what what are we trying to accomplish right now are we trying to kind of look in the mirror I guess and they're trying to say a little bit like what what did we do yeah well because you had that that tweet where you were you were like apologized on behalf of the crypto industry it's like hey uh we missed this one we missed SPF like I'm really sorry about that and people were

like why are you guys apologizing what the hell did you guys do it's like it's sometimes like anything if it happens in crypto I feel responsibility over it and that's what I think what helped me like wrecked me so hard on the weekly Roll-Ups was like yo when Sam rugs this is my industry like and like what also hit me pretty hard and probably like what started that whole thing was like I was on a call with my mom and sister uh like a FaceTime call uh just it was my mom sister and Dad it's my dad's birthday I was wishing him a happy birthday and like they were we were talking about like I would say like oh yeah the shit's going down in the crypto world and they had heard about it obviously I was like yeah it's like really hard to like defend crypto and

like the speed and like energy to which my mom and sister started nodding like yeah it is really hard to defend what you guys are doing right now you're right yeah you're right we um they don't see the distinction they haven't listened to all of our content all of the shows they don't they don't see the subtle differences between um what we try to talk about and what some other uh crypto person is talking about uh and by the way they also see we do talk about price go up don't we yeah I like never go up and that can all sound the same without kind of the deeper context dude I love I love all these trolls in the in the chat like time to cry again it's like you go make

a podcast that has a bajillion listeners to teach you a lesson yeah what lesson is gonna is Richard gonna teach me uh let's see Richard Hart let's go to the website oh dude the website's so much Richard what's he up to where's very good in this world how can he have that this is the biggest troll website of all time in watches and raise 23 million dollars for medical research he owns the quickest Ferrari ever made and the most expensive Rolexes ever made this is richardheart.com I want to write website he's got 10 million in watches and 3 million in cars with 145 IQ he invented 145. yeah that's really good which went up in price 10

000 X he gave over 500 000 a 500 million dollars of free money to bitcoiners and created the largest free airdrop of coins through pulsechain.com he also called bitcoin's top two cycles in a row this is his website this is a person that should not be doing what he's doing in crypto that's just an example of demagogue that does not deserve our respect and anyone who tells you he does is trying to sell you some hex coin and that's the bottom line yeah and so I mean do you think he wrote that himself are we getting are people angry in the chat like well that's what I'm saying like dude everyone's angry man like we have like websites we have like three

serious adult with the brain like read this website and tell me how you think that this is a legitimate person who cares about the values that that uh crypto is based on it's insane man it's insane like well that's why I was saying like the industry just feels so toxic at the moment like like perhaps I've been too mean to the cardano folk and so they come back do you want to say sorry to any of the cardano folk right now uh cardiano is not a scam yes I regret I regret saying those words I felt very frustrated by not because like ethereum has like a history of like unfulfilled promises which is now late I would now consider those promises fulfilled I think cardano

also has that and I just am skeptical on like they're even being intent on that being fixed but I'll totally admit that that's just my gut feeling that the cardano community knows way more about and so their opinions are probably far more legitimate than mine the hex Community can [ __ ] right off well there you go that's the mood where do you think the the mood of the rest of the market is are people angry are they just are people leaving for good have you heard anyone in your circle say hey I'm out for good like this was it for me well yeah but no because like I surround myself by like other people that are going to be here no matter what right yeah so like there's it's like the margins that are the undecided you're in a bubble aren't you yeah I mean I mean

like a bubble for sure yeah yeah yeah uh and and so no I don't see anyone leaving but like I wouldn't put myself in the comfort or the in the company of somebody who would leave though all right let's talk about people we know who've been on the podcast maybe okay Travis cling hiki guy did you just say their fund is blown up yeah yeah dead yeah that's sad and it's because uh Travis had all of his uh at least it sounds like a significant majority of the funds on FTX yeah absolutely brutal uh multi-coin they're still standing but like wounded downtown 10 to 15 yeah 10 to 15. there's like the jokes around of like uh like people two months ago proud investors of FTX like VCS now it was a small check

what about like I know like um Paradigm for example they they were in on the FDX deal weren't they yes yes yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean a lot of people were a man a lot of people had like they were part of one of the ways that FTX had a bunch of money is they kept on raising money man they had they had great revenue and and then they would buy everything but like it was it was one gigantic fraud where like you know money into fund spf's ego okay do you know another thing we got a lot of pushback for I feel like I don't want to spend this episode on this defending ourselves yeah because I don't feel like we need to defend ourselves on the slightest but but last thing do you regret ever having SBF on we've had them no dude no no not at all back in March

yeah and this is like a contrast because we're having all of the exchange um yeah and the second largest third largest exchange we had Brian Armstrong on and he talked about crypto values and then we had SPF on and the contrast of like there aren't values there it was like I'm a Trader this is how I make money right I'm a bit I'm a business Builder I'm a Trader and I'm good at practice easy but he said that um a lot of people are saying you had a f you had SPF on you gave him a platform you enabled this is this just part of the witch burning I guess yeah people are just looking for people to to I don't regret that was a good episode it's like yeah what I learned from that what did I learn from that episode with SPF uh he's not gonna

build defy he's going to build a good exchange and the remember like the exchange was good it was a good product that people enjoyed and if except except for the fraud in the back but the exchange in the front was a functioning product that was worth something yes we'll see like that there's there should there should be uh there should be a dividing line between like okay you have the functioning exchange which was a money printer which was great and like and that's why FTX employees even feel wrecked by this is because like in the back it was spf's like personal bank account to go like buy cool things because he was a child with no adult in the room right and so like if you could

separate those things and this is why tremoth wanted to have FDX as like a board of director if you could separate those things and have like adults in the room we would still be able to have FTX we the best thing we can do is like I so here's the thing as kind of a I think a con content creator and having podcasts that I've learned like our audience isn't dumb no why should why should we like we have one of those yeah let's say we have one of the smartest audiences in crypto I mean like we shouldn't be paternalistic about this they can listen to a conversation and make their own judgments about the individual in front of them right is another exactly what we also did with uh Eric versus Eric Voorhees versus SPF right we brought him in and they just talked talk and if you

came out of that episode and you were thinking that SBF like was in it for crypto values and cared about Define decentralization and was going to stand up for these principles in DC I don't know what to tell you like because you didn't watch the same episode that that I did right and so we were trying to get Sam on for a while and we were having a bad time reaching to him because we've been so antagonistic to him yeah right he had you blocked I forgot about that it was a preemptive blocking like I'd never interact with them but he just didn't like I don't know Vegas Valley I don't know something yeah there was something yeah we were like barely warm to Sam is sometimes antagonistic because he was

like part of the salonic ecosystem and we were critical of Solana uh anyways I don't know where do we go from here can we get to okay so here's what I'm optimistic about again uh there we as a industry were faced with a lot of scammers and just like fraudsters and Bad actors in 2022 um yeah do Quan Danny sesta uh three arrows Capital again I think suzu is like an okay guy but like when you give him money he's bad uh and like yeah and like now SPF and like so we we've been faced with a variety of like fraudulent people or just like scammers like Danny assessed and like dokwon I

don't know where to categorize him but like not good and so like as an industry we've learned who these people are they have a couple they're all different flavors but they all have kind of similar bases to them like they all are obsessed with themselves they all want to promote their ego like why was SBF the face of FTX when with his like sweaty t-shirts and like New Balance sneakers and he plastered himself all over San Francisco so like we've as an industry back in 2013 we learned not your keys not your crypto because of Mount gox we haven't learned something like that for a long time as bad as 27 2018 was uh it was like it wasn't really anything like there wasn't anything that crazy there it was just like unsustainable business

models with icos in 2022 it got bad because we had so many scammers rug us left and right but like the learning lessons is like I think we as an industry will be able to call out the early warning signs and the red flags a lot better now because of the lessons that we've learned in 2022 so I think it is going to be a lot harder to scam this industry and defraud this industry moving forward because we've seen it before we've had it happen to us do you think we just get some temporary resistance though and then need to be re-inoculated there's a new generation that comes they also need to be inoculated right I mean the class of 2013 and a lot of those ogs were not fooled by this SPF person right like I I

guess like I look Voorhees did not think SBF was a straight scam no one I mean dude no one did SPF was the most successful con man that we have had in crypto right like just very good at it see con man implies intent he wasn't he didn't even intend to be economy and he was just irresponsible I guess uh I don't know I don't know I don't know what the man is thinking I don't know what is in his kind of like brain or his heart I mean like look man I I 11 days before we had the conversation with him and he knew he had a 10 billion dollar you know a hole in his balance sheet and he's playing with depositors money I mean I don't know what you call that con man I don't know

for a fraud accidentally you don't accidentally stumble into that like there was some uh definitely anyway Voorhees did not smell that out in person but he knew like I'm not gonna give anyone like on principle alone I'm not gonna give someone else my private keys right right like I I'll use exchange to get Fiat crypto and them out I'm out yeah right and I I have custody of my or it's in a smart contract wall or something else by the way I think the apology that we as an industry and a subset of an industry of crypto we in the D5 Community owe the world and the rest of crypto is we didn't educate well enough okay we tried believe me we tried yeah

I'm like well I'll say it's like the tension isn't there all the time and we talk about private keys and some somebody else is talking about like whatever coin has gone up 20x and they'd rather tune into that um but education I think we could have done a better job the other thing is building it's just the user experience of taking costume your private use sucks still it's not great it's hard right so even in my dad when I was talking to him I was like you get you want to get your money off coinbase he's like yeah you need to help me with that and like yeah I really I'm gonna need to help you with that um so you don't like so that's the other thing I think we could be that we could have done better yeah I was on um Kevin Milwaukee's uh podcast

yesterday uh and we were talking about like all right what what like uh how do we how do we move forward in like more concrete steps and like yo we need account abstraction bro like that's exactly what we need uh and like we don't have time to go into what a kind of abstraction is but like it is the thing that unlocks the Golden Age of ux improvement for self-custing assets and this is like education is one thing we just need to make self-custody assets cool and fun and easy and we don't get there without account abstraction it's account attraction smart contract wallets really yeah it's the way forward right um I mean vitalik talked about we had them on the podcast was almost like two years ago now he talked about this where he's talked about a number of times I

mean but like on Bank lists I I just feel like that's an area we haven't moved the dial very much at all yep um and I'm I'm a little like I hopefully this will be the the pressure that we need there's a tremendous amount of Demand right now to use bankless systems to take custody of your own keys and dude I want the experience of like I have it on my phone and I can share social recovery Style with a few other people in my network that I trust right and the gas fees are low and so it's not going to cost me right you know 100 we'll see with the kind of abstraction it wouldn't even be your family it would be just your other devices perfect yeah

um like that is something we absolutely need right now um yeah all right what else you got what else should we talk about what else is in your mind I don't know chat uh we're either gonna talk about whatever you guys want us to talk about or we're going to sign off so take take them of this moment to ask some questions or prompt us with something what are prices like real quick uh 12 low 12s for eth I think once again I feel good about my buys have you made any moves lately no David see so so I was thinking about the difference between like our kind of timing things and you're you're really good at getting me like these local buys lately lately yeah knock on wood that's

good but I want to be really good at me like buying the kind of the the more sustained like long time I I don't think I think we'll be in this range for a while at some point and so I don't know I don't think we're going lower I'm so on board I think we're going to Triple digits first I think something's going to shake us I'm not talking about locally I could take a month it could take a few months I have no idea but that's what I'm guessing I could be wrong in which case I'll have missed the train yet again but um oh but hunter asked when Steve Newcombe uh we have a Wednesday episode coming out with Steve from zksync so there's that look that's still progressing um what's the next big tragedy to the fall crypto do you think

we've seen a lot of them if it's a bigger one then it's just dashing my hopes and dreams Jesus like it's it was the only way it could be bigger than FTX is if it was something that was even more trusted by the industry and so like it's that's got to be something like gemini or coinbase like if some trading firm like genesis went under which people were worried about people were like oh get your funds out of Gemini earned because Genesis their trading firm is going under uh like if it was just a good trading firm that would be one thing like but it's like we need to like not lose trust and faith in our institutions and that includes our Fiat on-ramps and so like yeah if coinbase did something bad or uh Gemini did something bad or crack in like that

would be bad but again like that there what's the bigger shark Beyond FTX I'm worried the next thing is I think I think we've removed the the custodial kind of risk from from the pools here mostly and we've we've removed a lot of the margin a lot of the leverage I've always been worried about kind of the the D-Day sort of hack like a major smart contract hack or something like a like an Ave or like maybe in kind of the new world of layer twos and something a layer two some issue with a massive Layer Two after it gets to protocol air hat yeah yeah and there's like a dow type of event like the original the Dao

event where you have a massive hack um but so you want you want some Dwelling on it you want some Alpha I want some Alpha so I I had uh some friends over at my place this weekend uh one of them worked at coinbase who shall not uh be named um but they they were talking about just like they're in inside of the United States competition like it's FTX it's binance it's coinbase FTX was flat in terms of user adoption and user acquisition it was binance that's been starting to creep up against coinbase and this was before FTX went under hmm wow yeah so now our banks have gotten even bigger because we've had a major competitor get kind of deleted and

um you know coinbase is there but coinbase is somewhat defile lined I feel like yes they have they have a self-custodial wallet inside of their main consumer application yeah I mean we'll we'll continue to push on them and hold them accountable for that but I mean that's what they say is they're they're more defile lines so I feel like left standing it's kind of the like because the the alt layer ones have taken not mortal wounds I think they'll be back but they are severely wounded and they're kind of limping away like the Soul Community is PR is down bad right now yeah I think I I think that's definitely true in terms of price but I'm I'm wondering if like I mean you remember what it was like when we

watched ether go to 80 like I became like I have I felt stronger camaraderie with the crypto Twitter eth crew during that moment I think it's um what Saul has to figure out is like what Solana has to figure out is like look I don't think they're dead they're definitely not dead but now they've got kind of a major exchange supporter that was basically a Joe Lubin like of Solana out of the picture completely they take a hit from that right and in in the face of that they also have increasing Layer Two competition yeah that is pretty significant and having low block fees is not is not enough uh right like right

now when you have like a ZK EVMS that are nipping at your heels yeah so I do think Salon is going to have to I mean they're going to exist but they're going to have to have some uphill battles yeah they might have some uphill battles and they might have to kind of reinvent themselves but anyway all that to say I feel like it's binance and then there's ethereum D5 it's these are the whole these are the major horses left yeah and so I'm not saying cz's final boss because he's not I don't I don't think and right now he's reasonably crypto aligned but like Finance is a bank right and we I hope they go in the direction of decentralization but it's interesting that rather than align with ethereum and building on layer twos

they've decided to launch their own kind of Geth Fork right and beat chain powered by BNB the token and like I think cz's a brilliant strategist and business person but I don't know I don't know if that will mesh with what the end state vision we we hope for uh for defy and crypto is right I think like finance will only be as defy aligned as it makes rational profit sense as in like the only reason why binance smart chain exists is because it was a profitable Endeavor by CZ not because of any particular like ethos of crypto right um but still that is a significant step

ahead of most people in this space so do you think that uh we'll be able to convince Regulators that um D5 is already regulated it's just regulated by code and that's that's the biggest ask in in that's possible like to convince them that the evm is all the regulation that we need uh it's not that's not so I think that's not totally the objective I think it would be really cool if we figured out um all right so part of this which is so fascinating is we got to watch a bank run unfold in real time that was pretty fun on chain and Linux uh nanson on etherscan on Twitter right like the whole thing was publicly visible

that's to me that sounds like a regulator's best friend yeah and if if we we can kind of present tools to them that allow them to check the reserves of D5 protocols if they want but also like you know some of the more centralized parties and validating it like they might I'm I'm not saying this current regulatory regime but like if they were smart back to your optimistic Vision if we could educate them and show them and convince them of all of the wins in defy and if they really cared about the missions of their Regulatory Agencies which is like protecting American citizens right

and you know Fair efficient markets on these sorts of things then maybe maybe there's a shot that we can actually recruit them and get them on board right to pushing the industry in the direction of why have another you know block fi sit up when we can have a user interface on top of an Ave and a compound and like collateral backed D5 protocols that are completely transparent and publicly audible yeah with proof of reserves every 12 seconds yeah right I mean this is kind of weird like there is a window that has opened here and we need to make sure yes I guess my my final thought on this

piece is um I am so relieved that a um a sociopath and a predator who is clearly bending his Empire towards the destruction of defy yeah crypto and we didn't know it yet like it was it's basically it's like Senator Palpatine like in the back yes we found Senator Palpatine in like this first two or three years of existence yeah right yeah thank God because he turns into uh Emperor Palpatine later uh full Sith Lord right and like then it's too late then he's already has the entire galaxy under his Dominion right yep and we have to fight that like that's literally what we just uncovered and uh I am if he got

if he got this far in what would see been in the industry since 2018 2019 he got this far in four years biggest Democratic donor massive political con yeah uh the guy who's representing crypto in the our houses of legislation second largest crypto exchange Tom Brady uh cameos um I like this guy was everywhere and would have been such a dangerous right individual to have in the space and he got him out what a victory that is he was he was a Cancer and this is why the industry is hurting right now we we crypto is one holistic body we had cancer uh it was propping us up for a while and now we cut the cancer out and

now we're hurting and now we're post surgery and now we're recovering recovery recovery recovering maybe that's the state of things as we are recovering uh did he really just tweet out an end yep we got and then this guy this [ __ ] guy dude [ __ ] guy happened what happened happened that's what he's gonna do unbelievable unreal uh all right I can't wait to forget this guy and uh move on right let's move on with defy uh you got anything left David uh I think this is good this is helpful yeah thanks for staying strong bankless Community we appreciate you guys um we got one last round of sponsors Fantastic Tools make sure make sure you stick around and watch every single one

all right that's how we pay for the show honestly all right bye Ryan in all of my years in crypto I have never been hacked scammed or lost money to a thief and a lot of that credit goes to my ledger Hardware wallet the love your Nano X and The Ledger Nano S Plus Hardware wallets allow users like you and me to secure and manage all of our crypto assets and our nfts all with the security of storing users private Keys offline and Out Of Reach from hackers The Ledger Nano X is the perfect Hardware wallet for managing your crypto and nfts on the go because it connects to your phone with Bluetooth and has a nice big screen for easy transaction readings Ledger has also upgraded the iconic Ledger Nano s and made the new Ledger Nano s device more defy and nft friendly making it the

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