The Past, Present and Future of ChainLink w/ ChainLinkGod

Transcript

[Music] thank you hello and welcome back to the strangewater podcast thank you for tuning in for our 26th episode we've got something very special for you today let's start with a fact one of the most important reasons that ethereum is so secure is because the evm is not connected to the outside world by limiting the ability of smart contracts to reach out into the open internet swaths of digital vulnerabilities are rendered completely moot but this security comes at a cost

because smart contracts are bound by the relatively tiny confines of the evm they are severely limited forget about computation limits gas costs or any of the resource-based calculations that we all make today without access to outside data functions and systems in the real world the only applications that you can build within the evm are self-referential and quite frankly boring so here's the Dilemma of early ethereum how can we connect ethereum to the outside world without breaching the sacred protection of the evm by today the answer is well understood

we call it oracles oracles are services that take real world data and send a copy into the evm storing it in a smart contract once there every other citizen of the evm can refer to that data or they can run the process in reverse and send a command to the smart contract where the Oracle is watching and can notice the command and process it off chain this Paradigm effectively gives smart contracts access to the outside world facilitated by messages relayed by oracles okay so that's oracles at a super high level pretty easy to grasp but the second it clicks a million questions come up

for example like who are these oracles or how do we ensure that they're honest but perhaps most interestingly at least to me is can this technology be used to connect two blockchains and can they do it so strongly that we might not need to think about distinguishing between blockchains at all today we have the perfect guess to answer all of these questions and more chain link God to most of you CLG is well known for his sober well-reasoned and fierce advocacy of chain link and of ethereum for those of you who don't pause this episode right now and go follow them on

Twitter either way this episode is jam-packed with everything from chain Link's history their latest product called cross chain interoperability protocol or ccip how ZK fits into the chain link roadmap and and so much more one more thing before we begin please do not take Financial advice from this or any podcast ethereum will change the world one day but you can easily easily lose all of your money between now and then okay time to start the show chain link God thank you so much for

joining us for the strange water podcast great to have you on absolutely thanks for having me on of course man so um before we get started with like the meat and potatoes of this conversation with chain link and ccip I I'm a big believer that the most important part of every conversation are the people in it and so I'd love to start with just who are you um as much as as possible um with uh somebody who who has decided to remain anonymous but who are you and what brought you to this like crazy weird financialized part of the internet yeah so uh my name is chain link God I'm a chain link Community Ambassador uh or that's my pseudonym at least a better way to put it call me CLG might be simpler uh I effectively I try to help educate the community uh the Chandler

Community about what oracles are and what chain link is developing and what use cases exist and what the how the ecosystem evolve as well as kind of talk about other interesting things I see in the crypto ecosystem like tokenized assets and uh on-chain Financial ecosystem and basically whatever Peaks my interest I like to talk about effectively and write about and talk about I mean I originally got into crypto uh later part of 2017 early 2018 when you know that was like Peak bull market Mania and I saw that people in like the Gaming Community were using gpus to basically run this program on the computer and print money out of it and I thought oh that's that's interesting I know the Gaming Community was really pissed at crypto miners because they're buying up all the gpus at the time and so like I ran this

program made like three bucks a day you know it's uh but it's more like the intellectual curiosity like what is my computer even doing like why is these digital bits have economic value why can I convert them to cash and so I kind of fell down the crypto Rabbit Hole from that from like a computer science distributed system type perspective and it kind of dived into Bitcoin and learning you know the the the the monetary policy of Bitcoin the immutability The Ledger the transparency what what is blockchain trying to solve in the first place then I looked at like coin market cap I saw there were like these million tokens doing various things uh and they're all in ethereum like every single token is based on ethereum like okay why is that and then I dove into ethereum and so I was a smart contract platform with these

immutable applications and you know started to learn that blockchains are not just used for currencies crypto native assets but all these applications as well and then it kind of came to like next question of like how is a smart contract supposed to be useful if it doesn't know anything about the external world if I have a you know a contract about a mortgage or a house or something how's it supposed to know where the house is who owns it what it's worth what the condition is and then that kind of from there stumbled into chain link and this was uh this was like 2018 so like the team wasn't doing any marketing it was just a white paper it's just basically an idea but it just it clicked and made such intuitive sense to me that like the combination of smart contracts and oracles basically means any digital

agreement can be automated and operate in a much more trust minimized and verifiable manner which to me just like once I learned about it just seems so obvious that this is the way the economy is going to work it's you know it's the crypto ecosystem is definitely evolved and I've learned a lot over time but yeah that's kind of like the initial roots of how I got into this crazy space we call crypto for sure and so before we like get to you understanding that oracles are the big unlock and then falling into the chain link like while we're still in these early days of CLG and crypto um can you just talk a little bit about what you understood crypto to be um from first principles and from like your organic understanding of as an outsider coming in I mean for example

when you saw crypto did you think okay this is just digital money and that makes sense to me and and went from there or what were your first like understandings of what we're even trying to do here yeah so I didn't come into it initially from like purely an investment perspective I mean I was like literally just coming out of high school at the time so I didn't really have that much disposable income so it was much more about the tech uh ironically there but it's much more like learning if you want to have some type of system of agreement that doesn't operate using a trust counterparty how do you get everybody to agree with one another how do you come to consensus if you have a ledger transactions you can trust a bank to to ensure that ledger is accurate but if you don't want to trust that and you

want to trust you know nobody or you want to trust everybody it's kind of it's the same thing then like how do you how do you facilitate that system so like blockchains as a data structure kind of a cryptographically linked list structure just intuitively made sense and learning how like proudest proof of work achieve consensus then it kind of made sense once you have this distributed Ledger that everybody kind of contributes to but nobody can directly control or influence that property of immutability that you know anybody can access it's fully permissionless anybody can add entries but they can't remove entries like those are like the very basic first principles of like what a blockchain is it's just a data structure but it's a very useful type data structure then it's kind of learning okay what can we apply this data structure to well money that seems

like a pretty obvious one if you want to have non-state money not uh a money that's not controlled by central banks effectively you know then you need the community to control and you need everybody to come to consensus and you can have these predefined monetary policies that you know either nobody no single person can change or everybody can agree to change it like it's it's that property can be applied to anything can be applied to agreements between different counterparties who don't trust each other they don't want to trust some other entity they can't trust their counterparty during the contract they don't want to trust some third party you can screw them over so they want just a decentralized entity to manage that contract for them and run autonomously and just basically execute uh it's kind of this concept of like the god protocol where if you know if you were able to

have God run all the contracts and all the logic then that would be like the ultimate counterparty that you could fully trust now obviously that's like that's kind of like the idealistic Vision but it's smart contracts are kind of trying to achieve that state of you don't have to trust it it will just work and you can verify that it will just work and those properties can be applied across so many different things money and Agreements are the most obvious but I think we're still exploring of like where else could we use it in gaming and traditional Finance in Social applications like the the applications are unlimited but it's really verifiability transparency permissionless and of course censorship resistance yeah for sure man I totally hear you like I I recognize how silly it is for me some like guy wearing a Bud

Light shirt tier to make this comment but like it sometimes I look back at like Satoshi and the original work around Bitcoin and wonder at the same time that we know that it had to be speculative and investment to you know kind of get us to where we are today it in in a certain standpoint that has like really crippled us to just think about this whole technology and whole sector something that is directly about money like the most basic transfer and like unit of value that um exists and so like of course that's important I mean it look at everything that's been built it's all about money but I think kind of what you're saying and what I really really

believe is blockchain technology and like I'll just I'll just do it and be like the Maxi here but like ethereum specifically was not put on this planet to give us better money it is a Computing technology and like there's just in the same way that modern computers all they do is not just Swift or the financial system they do so much more like that is what ethereum and what blockchain is going to be for us yeah the the I kind of see like there's two different crypto worlds like you know there's the builders who see the technology and then there's the Speculator and investors and you kind of need both like if you don't have the speculators you don't have the fundraising and capital for the builders to build and the builders don't build there's nothing to speculate on so

they're intrinsically tied uh but the speculation can also obviously get way out of control and that's I think I mean that's why crypto has such a terrible reputation of people see monkey jpegs trading for sick fit gears and they don't really get it because I don't think most people really get it because it's it's just a speculative Mania uh it's kind of like the.com bubble where you know there was over investment effectively and 99 of things just completely failed and didn't work out but that Capital uh funded the infrastructure and that one percent went on to basically redefine how Society itself works so I think like speculation is a tool that can be useful at times it could just get a bit too many and if it becomes the central focus of what's being done then it's like you're building a casino not how the future of

society and its contractual agreements will work so sometimes it just needs some alignment but like yeah speculation necessarily completely bad it's just a it's kind of a necessary evil is the way I kind of see it yeah for sure I mean I think the second you get into the game of calling things good or evil like you've already you're not a builder anymore you're a a pundit right and so like speculation just is what it is and I think the.com boom is the exact right analogy right like pets.com webvan super silly but at the same time that's when Google and Amazon and uh I don't know Salesforce were being built and like those are the pillars of our Modern Life today so I think we could go on all day about um the casino that we live in and and what

that means but let's just try to keep this relevant here so um in in 2017 2018 2019 you have uh started to realize both probably organically but also through the introduction of the chain link white paper both how critically important oracles are going to be but also like the capabilities that oracles are going to unlock so for all of us now in 2023 like that's such a no-brainer it's almost not worth talking about but can you just rewind us a little bit back to that time and tell us like what what for you is the aha moment that made you realize that I mean essentially you are going to build a whole identity around

the power of this specific technology yeah I think there was like a particular moment in 2018 and just the sets in context where people weren't around back then like crypto in 2018 wasn't about like there was no D5 there's no applications ethereum was effectively a fundraising platform for for icos and tokens people speculating what could be built and what really clicked about like oracle's enough to play chain link is there was somebody wrote this thesis of like what would an Institutional smart contract look like what would that require would it just be the on-chain logic well no they need financial Market data to settle their financial transactions they need to be able to connect to institutional backends so they can send messages and connect their existing infrastructure they need to be able to connect to existing e-signature providers they need to connect to

existing payment providers like there's going to be this transaction period and they need all the existing infrastructure that we already used today in the financial industry or the tech industry or whatever that's not going to just like Disappear With blockchain smart contracts that'll be connected to Smart contracts to kind of create these hybrid applications that can effectively for smart contracts not just be this Logic on chain but it can connect to the outputs and the inputs that are required to make a full contract because that's ultimately what a contract is you have some inputs of this is what's going to happen and then that has some output usually like the transfer funds so like you need both of those those i o components and like when I read that and I kind of realized oh man if we're actually going to get smart contracts to do anything useful at scale

you know bring a non-chain financial system for traditional Securities or you know whatever contractual agreement like it's got to connect all this infrastructure it needs the inputs it needs the outputs and it you know ultimately oracle's even evolved beyond that uh but that was kind of the that was the one moment was like oh man okay this is like oracles are just as important as smart contracts like we could use Smart contracts without oracles and they would still be kind of useful but you can basically create a token move a token swap a token and vote those are like the four things you can do without oracles and if you really want to do anything more then you need some type of information coming in and out of the system to other systems and that's how that's how smart contracts become globally systemically important and integral to the way Society works so

that that was really the aha moment and then once I read that thesis then I went and read the chain of white paper and then it's like okay the the salt stasis makes a whole lot of sense to me yeah the you started with the theory you're like okay now I understand how this like basically like self-contained internet tool that like might have some applications to video game assets transforms into like okay this is the Global Financial system of the internet age and then you read the chain link white paper and it was like well this is how we actually do it does that sound right yeah exactly because it was just like uh here's here's what institutions need from Smart contracts okay and the answer is basically oracles and like chain links basically the only project worked on oracles and at the time it was just a

white paper but like okay yeah this this is obviously this is going to go somewhere look at all the people that they've been working with I mean it was already known that chain link was working with Swift and and DocuSign and these other people so it's like okay maybe these guys know what they're doing this is one of the more interesting projects in this space yeah well man good for you to be able to recognize like what the what things are actually interesting and what things are like meaningless hype um because as we all know crypto Twitter is not very good at that but uh good job like catching that early yeah I mean I was definitely like I originally got my news from like uh like Reddit cryptocurrency and so like I went through the whole like you know I'm not going to name them because I don't

piss off any communities but like all these other coins that like it look like they have good potential and then you kind of dig into it and realize like okay they're not really solving anything useful and so you kind of I think everybody kind of goes through that path of like what's what's actually useful for this technology and what's just kind of hype and vaporware in marketing campaigns yeah I know and it's interesting that everyone has their own like for me it was the alt L ones because for those of you who are unaware I am a 2021 baby so I'm relatively new and I immediately got in and thought okay there's ethereum there's a ethereum you know competitors like which one's gonna win I need to have like a little piece of all of them and then over time you realize like okay just because somebody

says the right words doesn't mean they're building technology that's going to change the world and it's just interesting that that exact same thing happened for me on the L1 layer because that's when I entered and the same thing happened to you at the I don't even know just like random token or Ico layer because that's when you entered yeah it was like a mixture of different l1s and different projects I think a lot of those kind of got flushed out for the most part and then it kind of got replaced by like a new set of hyped up things and then every every cycle it seems to repeat with a different set of tokens and projects so I'll make it some don't you know it's just you gotta you gotta be able to filter really well in in crypto otherwise you're very distracted very easily for sure for sure

so um let's go back to our story um and I don't think it's like particularly useful to just pick apart the entire chain link story but if you could just kind of give us the highlights of chain link from white paper to let's say in the last couple months let's say pre-launch of ccip like what um like how do you how does this go from a white paper and then I'm assuming just like one guy running one set of nodes to um you know put data on chain to a truly decentralized Network that's creating you know robust enough data inflows and outflows that people are building multi-billion dollar protocols on it um yeah what are the highlights of of that Journey yeah so like the original

token sale was 2017 that's when the white paper came out and then it wasn't until uh 2019 where chain link launched on mainnet uh and that was with a like ethusd data feed on ethereum with three nodes and respectively just feeding data on chain about The Ether price every five minutes and that was like the initial product Market fit of oracles at the time and it honestly didn't really get used that much until 2020 and then 2020 that's when we saw defy summer which was this absolutely crazy liquidity mining fueled craze but a lot of D5 summer a lot of the applications that popped up during that time were only possible because chain link was putting price data on chain about various different cryptocurrencies and you know as more applications and more user demand popped up more and more

feeds got launched with more and more nodes more data sources that that eventually expanded out to more blockchains this kind of use as you mentioned the all-l ones start popping up then all these other blockchains need deep applications but they need oracles and price feeds to make that up make that possible so that's kind of where I think a lot of people first heard about channel for the first time uh was just its usage in d5's price feeds and that kind of created this perception or understanding that like oracles are price feeds uh which that's historically one of the major use cases that they've been used for but like once chain link was kind of established as this like price feed provider uh for the D5 ecosystem then it was kind of The Next Step was like okay what else can oracles be used for well they can be used for

verifiable random numbers for like nft minutes or for gaming applications okay that's useful you know smart contracts can't trigger their own functions so you need some transaction automation solution so then automation came out you know you have all these stable coins and these wrap tokens that are backed by assets off chain or cross chain so having proof Reserve is useful to to verify it's actually backed by something so it kind of just accelerated from there of like all these different use cases until uh where we kind of are now where there's basically way to see this chain links making like three three major bets across external data off-chain compute and cross-chain interoperability so on data there's J links building new infrastructure for low latency data feeds which are like data feeds but rather than just pumping

data on chain the data is made available off chain to users and users can put themselves put on chain whenever they want using the freshest data so that's very useful for you know derivatives applications like GMX which have a lot of Leverage and need the most fresh most secure data the second like computation is something called functions which is basically using Oracle networks to run computations off chain and being able to fetch from any data source so you can you can do any type of computation that would be too expensive or too infeasible or it needs privacy that you don't want to do on a blockchain but you want the results to end up on a blockchain so that's like a very useful developer focused self-service tool where you could basically plug whatever you want into your smart contract any compute any data and then the third that you

mentioned is you know cross chain with ccip so that's the the cross chain interoperability protocol that chain link just recently launched on Main Early Access which is effectively you know we've seen cross chain bridges over the past year or two you know I think last year was like two billion dollars got exploited in Cross Chain Bridge it's kind of it's been not great because a lot of the bridges have rushed designs or they're poor quality or they're just not secured very well and you know chain link price feeds like chain Link's reputation is just based on how well it's worked how secure it's been running and how it's had basically virtually no issues and so it's applying that same security logic to all these services including cross chain which has been such a security sensitive uh problem and chain links effectively providing this

cross-chain solution with you know these different layers of security for not only the default ecosystem but now is working with traditional institutions of okay how do we connect the public chains with the private bank chains and how do we connect the bank's back-end system to all these blockchains in a very seamless manner so we can see institutions start to tokenize more assets so it's kind of I've always kind of seen chain link is trying to push the industry forward it's always kind of just one or two steps ahead of the rest of the industry kind of laying the roads so developers can go build and use the infrastructure to build out what eventually becomes the next Trend and what becomes the next uh the applications that people end up building building so it's really been a journey from just price feeds one network to all these different networks

with all these different computation and data and interoperability and it's kind of channel is basically like this this web3 Services platform where you can pick and choose kind of like AWS where you just pick and choose the services you need plug it in your smart contracts and then you basically get going you don't have to think about the infrastructure complexity or anything yeah for sure I love the kind of three pillars so let's um let's address each one of the pillars with spending the most time on ccip the the new one but even before we get there let's talk a little bit about like the chain link the chain link Oracle Network right and look I think it's hard for people who don't live and breathe uh like are are the way that we

think and the way that our systems are constructed to like first like understand that it's a challenge to get external data onto you know ethereum which exists solely over the Internet um but then on top of that like we get into like these huge huge questions of it's one thing to put data into this trustless environment but basically the data is only going to be as good as what is put in and so like the question immediately becomes like how do we trust the data that's put in and so um can you just talk a little bit about what is the chain link Oracle network is it something like ethereum where it's permissionless like anyone like myself can opt in to be in a Oracle node and

then kind of how to how does chain link as a holistic system ensure that each individual participant is um you know of course not malicious but even more than that like actually putting like their full effort into getting the most accurate possible data or execution or whatever role they're playing in the network yeah just to set some context like basically what chain like effectively solved was the Oracle problem where smart contracts and blockchains are really self-isolated systems that's that's what makes them so secure you can you can run a blockchain node and you can verify everything that's happening using uh just the cryptography and historical state but if you want to introduce any kind of

external information smart contracts can't reach out and go get that data because then every node is going to get a slightly different thing and they can't come to consensus and it breaks the whole security model so you need these other entities called oracles but you can't have just one entity go fetch the data and put it on chain because I mean that's that becomes an obvious uh single point of failure and if your contract is triggered by one entity and you could just corrupt that one entity you know it kind of defeats the point of using smart contracts in the first place or it becomes very very insecure to do with that method so like chain link basically introduced uh I kind of there's different ways to describe it I see it as like a framework for building Oracle networks so the chain link network is really a network of networks

where people have the tools to basically say hey I want this collection of nodes uh to fetch from this collection of data sources come to consensus and feed it to my contract so there's there's not just one chain link Network there's actually about a thousand chain link networks across different blockchains and each one of those networks can be configured to do a specific task it's kind of I kind of see it as like consensus as a service so if you need consensus about the price of ethusd you can set up an oracle network with any nodes if you're choosing any data sources and you can get exactly what you need and some of those networks within this collection are networks that are basically bootstrapped and managed by chain link labs to kind of fuel the the growth of the chain link ecosystem and those are

node operators who span different Industries uh like traditional telecommunication providers like t-systems which is a T-Mobile and swisscom and these traditional Enterprises there's proof of stake validator companies that run blockchain infrastructure basically as a living as a company so they know how to run this infrastructure and then there's like Community actors who basically they run chain link nodes as their business and so basically what what secures these different chain link networks is a combination of a couple different things when you have multiple nodes and multiple sources you have decentralization so it's kind of applying the same properties that blockchains take to transactions to data and compute and those all these other things and layered on top of that is effectively Financial incentives where node operators have you know they're

getting paid for their services they have this future income they don't want to jeopardize by being malicious and they have their reputation on the line whether like specific legal risks or just their future revenue and their whole company uh on the line as a service provider as well as uh you know chain Link's been rolling out what's called chain link staking so node operators are paid in link token for their services so they want to maintain the value of that token if they're malicious and that harms the value of the token their future revenue and all their Link holding basically become worthless so they have a financial incentive not to harm the health of the network as well as as chain link staking rolls out uh increasingly rolls out more and more node operators are required to put up link tokens as collateral to basically back the performance of their

networks and if they don't meet some predefined condition or some requirement of them those tokens Can Be slashed and taken away from them so it's it's not exactly proof of stake as we see in blockchains because it's not it's not a blockchain but it's the same kind of security properties that you would see in a blockchain just being applied to the context of oracles which there there's similarities with blockchains but there's definitely differences uh you know oracle networks it's with chain like anybody can build a network and compose it however you want and usually it's better if like the entity who uses the network or coordinates the network chooses which nodes are used so that way you have predefined requirements of those operators because they need to do specific things and not every Oracle node is going to be able to do every Oracle job realistically the network

wouldn't be able to scale that way so it's a little bit different than blockchains in that regard but it's basically about configurability and then applying decentralization Financial incentives and then cryptography of the digital signatures all on kind of combination to create this system that looks like blockchains but is for data and for computation and cross chain yeah it sounds like you're taking all the learnings about consensus that have been derived from blockchain but then applying it to things that are just traditional compute right and so it sounds like you have the hybrid of the crypto economic systems but with like modern compute and I think that's super cool but one of the things that I um have been thinking about as you've been talking is really about like the complexity and the challenge of having

like super wide diverse networks right like Oracle networks in this case and so do you ever and by you I mean chain link uh ever like have to think about or struggle with um making sure that enough people are interested in running chain link nodes and that those people are sufficiently diverse that we achieve true decentralization in this network or is the model more about um leaving that to the application developers insofar as that they get to select their Oracle Network I think it's kind of a mixture of both I think uh your users should be able to pay for the security that they want so they need to

fetch a data a data point from a specific data source like an iot sensor and that's the only data source that adding decentralization there at the node layer doesn't necessarily do much because you're already trusting a single source that already exists so you kind of need some configurability there I would say that there's more outside out size demand to run chain link infrastructure than there is Supply and by Supply I mean basically the current uh economic Revenue that comes in because you want to create an oracle Network that's long-term economically sustainable so if you have an oracle network with a thousand nodes that would be very decentralized but if you don't have enough Revenue coming in to support them then your network is actually less secure than if you had a network of like 30 nodes that have these really strong economic incentives to keep up with

their operation so it's kind of you have to kind of balance these different things and in combination but ultimately the goal is to basically provide the infrastructure and tooling so a Dev can come to come to the chain link Network and say hey I need this data source I want to have at least 50 nodes I want to use these 20 data sources these are the configurations this is what I'm willing to pay and then you basically get matched with node operators and that's kind of like the long-term Vision right now chain link Labs is kind of helping bootstrap the ecosystem by saying okay we're going to launch this Oracle network with these 30 nodes pulling from these sources to deliver this data point that that users are asking for and kind of a lot of developers don't necessarily want to manage their own infrastructure

and they want more of a managed solution for them but they still want to be able to pay for more security so it's kind of you have to balance the decentralization with the economic incentives that that exist there to make sure it's it's sustainable in the long term But ultimately it's about configurability yeah for sure that makes a lot of sense and I think um a lot of the questions that we have about any of these blockchain Technologies today is just you know like we we have to build it first before anyone can use it and like that's a really really scary thing especially as an investor but um you know that that's kind of our jobs as like Community Advocates to help people understand and he has to help retail understand why this stuff is important it's going to change your life

but I really look at my project in strangewater podcast as like my mission is to talk to application developers about ethereum and ethereum related infrastructure because like everyone who is building web apps and applications for real people don't need to worry about how all this Works they just need to know what capabilities like they can now gain if they just like do really really simple Integrations with what we're building yeah ultimately it's kind of a balance of like you need to provide the infrastructure the tooling so developers can build cool applications but you don't necessarily want to build infrastructure that doesn't end up getting used because then you kind of you've wasted effort and

resources so you kind of have to like you got to prioritize okay developers really need low latency price data they really need a cross chain interoperability solution identity Solutions is going to be important but maybe it's a little early stage for that just now so it's kind of like matching what what do developers need building the infrastructure just in front of them so they can keep moving and then laying it's like laying track in front of a train that's that's moving effectively so you like you kind of can direct developers but the developers know what they want to build and they're going to build where they're going to build uh which is kind of people see risks with cross chain where it's not completely trustless across chain interactions but developers want to build that and users want to move their tokens across chain so there needs to be some type of

cross-chain solution otherwise we'll have to trust Joe and his basement to move the tokens between blockchains and you know that doesn't that doesn't work and that doesn't scale so the developers and the uh the infrastructure Builders basically have to like meet in the middle and then build out and then retails kind of along for the ride effectively or rather they're using the applications that that are the ultimate users of this entire thing depending on what type of retail user they are yeah just to put it in a much more crass way like we have to be building these Solutions right in front of developers because otherwise like what's the choice just to rely on Wormhole and then just hope that jump has more money than the North Koreans are willing to steal like come on that's not a solution yeah exactly it's or with the Ronin situation

or with I mean I can name it like a million different Bridge situations multi-chains probably the worst example yeah for sure cool man all right so let's go through each of these buckets uh the three pillars individually and I don't know how much there is to say about um just data available that's a loaded term I'm not going to say data availability but uh data me being made available on chain um do you think that there's anything that we haven't kind of like ambiently talked about that we're talking about I mean the main thing is price feeds or Price data because that's the most obvious product Market fit for a default ecosystem but like realistically if you have like an insurance agreement uh about like crop insurance you need the weather data to come on chain if you have some trade

finance agreement or some Trade Agreement you need like GPS location data so it's like there's there's all these various random different data points that some smart contract could need and so just having infrastructure ready to plot that data on chain in a secure and trusted way is immensely immensely valuable I think price data is not going to go away I think the the focus May shift from like just what's the price of Bitcoin to like what's the price of Apple stock realistically if we're going to move towards tokenized assets but the fundamentals like uh We've tested that this infrastructure works in the defy context and as things move more institutional and more societal scale the same learnings and logic apply it's just the different types of data you put on chain so it's kind of a everything's proved useful even if defy in 10 years looks

completely different than it is today yeah that makes a ton of sense and I you know I really think that at the end of the day like we're humans and we exist in the physical world and so the it's important to build products like ethereum that matter to the physical world and so yeah I totally understand how why data um transfer in and out of the evm is so important I guess last question in this pillar before we move on is is there any type of data that you know or foresee is going to be a challenge to integrate into an oracle Network or is is the power of modern compute that if a computer can ingest it then chain link will be able to ingest and then find

consensus on it yeah I mean ultimately if there's a data source ideally multiple it could be ingested and put on chain the tricky part is when you're dealing with like subjective questions then it's like things where there isn't a definitive truth to them or it could be interpreted in different ways that's an area where oracles aren't necessarily the most useful if everybody can interpret something in a different way but if you have a very objective data set then it's it's relatively easy to come to consensus like a you know transactions and blockchains are easy to come consensus on because everybody can verify for themselves see that it's legitimate and then everybody can agree but if people can't agree about the outcome of some specific event because people don't have all the information at hand or people have different political views that's something where basically you kind of need more humans in the mix

and you can't automate via oracles and smart contracts as well but even things like price data it seems like that's a very objective data point but when you look at the trading of tokens they CR they happen across all these different exchanges on chain on different chains off chain on these different exchanges different amounts of volume liquidity and latency and like all these different factors where even trying to get like a consensus on the price of a token isn't always necessarily super straightforward and we've seen a lot of issues with price feeds with other projects where they think they could just pull from two exchanges and that'll be fine or I just pull from this one liquidity pool and I'll be fine and then liquidity shifts and then the protocol gets wrecked because they didn't capture the entire market so like even something as simple

as price data can be easy to mess up if you don't get the the nuances of what data you're trying to put on chain in the first place so uh but yeah I would say objective data is the most clear because that could be automated very easily and subjective data is more kind of almost out of scope of smart contracts entirely yeah the one that that I'm thinking about in pricing data is like let's call the price of e 1600 right now if we go query our data sources and coinbase is 1600 and Kraken says 1600 and the unit swap LPC says 1600 but by and says 1550 you know it's easy in our heads to be like our consensus says that like this probably isn't right or we need to find

some way to blend this new number in but you know like that's not really how the world works like maybe price is being set on binance and like everyone else is about to reflect that and so like yeah price isn't an objective thing and and it's the closest thing we have to objective data so it's just like it's it's very interesting that the more you really peel back Oracle networks in terms of like actual specific data sources and actual specific computers and actual specific needs like things get a lot more nuanced and complicated yeah I mean it but chain like it's basically you just gotta layer on like a bunch of validation systems or you need to filter for outliers and filter for Flash crashes you want to way uh get like the volume weighted average price

across different exchanges and like it's like once you kind of dive into the nuances it seems obvious but then you see somebody Implement Oracle that just fetches from coinbase and they call that their price feed and it's like oh man that's not that's no good but like it's not everyone necessarily understands the nuances behind that uh which they shouldn't have to realistically very cool all right so let's move on to um something that I think is way under talked about with chain link which is the ability to execute arbitrary code using the Oracle Network so um I could probably explain it I'll totally butcher it do you want to just like tell the audience like what is this product that we're talking about yeah so there's a couple different ones I could

actually apply here but I think the one that applies the most is chain link functions which is kind of what it sounds like like Cloud functions but it's effectively as it's developer you can give the chain link functions Network a JavaScript code snippet any arbitrary code basically give that to the Oracle Network and it will execute it and you can incorporate like different API calls you can call data sources you can run computations over those inputs do large amounts of computation that can't be done on chain or do computations that need some layer of privacy or what other type of computation that you can't or don't want to do on a blockchain then you just submit the final result to a blockchain to ingest so basically that's kind of it's a similar thesis to how like

ethereum scaling via Layer Two is it's like you're using the blockchain as a final settlement layer for the transfer and settlement of value but the complex operations are being done off chain and basically just being verified on chain as being being legitimate and so like that's a very intuitive way of scaling these different ecosystems and being able to incorporate data points that you're not just pulling from a data source but for many sources and then you're Computing on them and you're ingesting different types of of computations across them and then putting the final result on chain which that could be used for many different contexts of connecting to traditional cloud services connecting to other blockchains connecting to like ipfs type networks or like snapshot voting and getting the final results and putting that on chain like it's it's kind of a

whole a whole spectrum of different things you can run uh off chain for much cheaper and much faster while still retaining the core properties of smart contracts that people want ultimately yeah so let's talk like what like let's just bash through a really quick made up example right but let's say like I'm a hedge fund and I want to create a you know program that goes on GMX calculates you know every specific parameter and based on a very intense calculation decides to make a buy or sell right that may be possible today but it's probably prohibitively expensive because the way blockchain works is the more computation the more you pay in gas and on top of that if you want to include any external data like you have

to pay an oracle Network or figure out some trusted way to get it in there like the bottom line is ethereum won't let you do it and so what chain link functions allows you to do is send basically your inputs like you know this is how much money I have say like I want you to ingest this specific chain data and then I want you to pull from these different weather sources do all whether or any external data sources um do all this intense computation and then when you're done just give me back to my smart contract yes or no buy or sell right and so um I guess first of all can you just like let me know if uh if that example doesn't hold

but um if it does can you talk about like why it's so important to run that kind of computation in an oracle Network as opposed to just let's say like spinning up an Amazon server that is running that same computation that you control sending out that com that function and then getting it back from that AWS that you control yeah I think that example definitely works I think it's most useful when the output that's being generated will affect multiple people so if it just affects yourself they might as well just run it yourself because you trust yourself but if your output from a computation is going to affect multiple different parties like it's for a Dao it's or it's for some uh smart contract that has multiple counterparties you know you can't just trust one of the counterparties to run

that computation realistically I I think ultimately like the goal is like it's multi-fold where it's much more scalable to run these computations off chain you can run it constantly like you don't necessarily run a computation once you may run it thousand times because there might just be one moment in time in which the computation actually ends up being relevant and so doing that on chain just is not feasible at all realistically if you want to like ingest data particularly like data that's private and run computations over it and output some analysis from that data you don't want to do that on chain because you don't want to put the raw data on chain and run the computation there because then that that doesn't work for privacy reasons either so you need to run that off chain but you need to run it in a trust minimize and kind of

secure private manner as well so I think ultimately it's kind of the creation of uh what you can call like a hybrid smart contract where a portion of the logic is running on chain and the other portion of the logic is running off chain at a much higher speed and in a much more private manner that can connect to all the external resources whether it's you know twilio for SMS or it's meta for social media or whether it's Google Cloud for various different server functions they have then it just outputs Yep this this computation happened this was the result you can use this to uh you know instruct a smart contract to move the transfer tokens from one party to another effectively and I think that model of running computations off chain and verifying them the result on chain that's kind of similar to what layer two

they're trying to do but specifically for smart contracts and holding money and moving tokens on layer twos while functions is much more about any arbitrary computation that's too expensive or you know the the blockchain doesn't even have the capability of doing those topic types of computations like more uh very intensive AI calculations or machine learning that's realistically you can't do on top of a blockchain itself so it's kind of it functions as a cool product because it's uh it doesn't have a definitive use case its use case is just computation and computation is like universally applicable to anything plus you can connect to any data source and have it fetched and computed by this uh trusted decentralized network of Oracle nodes that already run all this other chain

link infrastructure and have these Financial incentives for you so it's really it's up to the developers to choose okay I don't actually have to run this off chain it would be much better if I ran it off chain because I could run it a million times over and I can incorporate all this data otherwise I couldn't use in the first place so it's it's a really useful tool that a developer can have in their toolkit to apply when it's used best I think like the the thing that's like so interesting about the way we're talking about chain link functions is it we're using a lot of the same vocabulary and ideas that um basically is driving the entire narrative around ZK technology and so um basically like if I was to sum up ZK technology uh in a sentence or two it's how can we use

cryptography to execute computation off chain um that might be super Intense or crazy to do and then put that result on chain and then instead of having to re-run this crazy computation to verify it we can do a very very lightweight simple cryptographic proof using that commitment and then we like can um basically like be assured that our function was run properly and so I guess with that is like kind of the context um how do you see ZK technology um fitting itself into this like incredible Oracle Network that basically solved the

problem that ZK technology was invented to solve and do you think that this is really uh two kind of parallel solutions that like can learn a lot from each other but ultimately you know are solving the same problem from two different first principles or do you see ZK technology as a like really important crucial upgrade to what chain link has built so far I think they're definitely complementary I mean ultimately oracles bring consensus cryptography and uh Financial incentives to run computations and fetch data and I think zero knowledge proofs are really scalable of running complex computations and then making it very cheap to verify and being able to also retain privacy and so chain link has actually been engaged in

research on a product called Deco which is a privacy preserving Oracle using ZK snarks where you could basically bootstrap a privacy preserving identity protocol where existing data brokers existing data providers can basically provide certificates of like proof of identity proof of that you've done something and then smart contracts can use that without knowing the identity of a specific party so like an example is if I want to prove to a Smart contract that I'm an accredited investor so I have at least a net worth of a million dollars but I don't actually want to reveal how much money I have or I own you can use Deco which is oracle's plus ZK Tech to basically prove hey you know cryptographically this data source that I connected to was a legitimate

connection and that this data provider says you know it could be my bank account or something or a collection of bank accounts says my net worth is at least over a million dollars without saying exactly how much it is so I think like when you apply ZK you get both uh like the major privacy benefits with oracles which is very important for identity protocols and you get this just the cryptographic verification that hey I did legitimately fetch data from this data source since ideally data sources would cryptographically sign their their API so you can prove but most of them don't unfortunately so you can use ZK proofs to basically connect to any existing data provider and a backwards compatible manner improve cryptographically that you did actually fetch from that data provider while only selectively showing the information or

facts about the information some computation about it to the smart contract itself so I think ZK and oracles are 100 complementary and I think I think that'll continue to evolve over time because ZK is all about verification privacy Oracle is all about consensus and and financial incentives yeah maybe a good way to put it is that it's really easy for us in ZK world to be like ZK is going to solve all those trust problems and that I think that's true right but the the question that we often don't bother asking ourselves is like super cool that we can cryptographically verify all this stuff but like somebody actually has to run the computation like we're just assuming

that there's a bunch of people willing to do this stuff out there and then once they do it we can verify it with cryptography and I think maybe where this marriage point is is that chain link is that what is that Oracle Network really it's a computation Network and maybe uh chain link is like the organization and ZK is like the tool that the organization needs yeah exactly it's it's I I see oracles as like consensus service or like you can basically just do you can have an oracle Network do whatever you want it to do so if you say hey Oracle Network go run the ZK proving function it'll take like you know a minute or two to prove I'll pay you for the computation send me the results like oracles are just basically

facilitators and they can facilitate whatever you want plus you can use those same entities for all these other things and CK proofs can't necessarily do or they're not optimized for either so it's like an all-in-one package you get the ZK proving and you get all these other services to serve your smart contract all at once so it's a I think that's a very powerful property where I mean chain links value part a large part of it is just its high quality node set and just the the reliability of the network itself because if you want to run ZK proving computations you need to make sure it actually happens and that somebody's being paid to do that and they're incentivized and the result will actually get on chain and do what it needs to do and so basically leveraging existing Oracle infrastructure to do those computations is like a it's a it's

a perfect match for one another yeah for sure okay let's uh let's move on to ccip which is like the newest and the latest and greatest uh release or development from uh chain link but um CLG could you give us like the 4-1-1 on ccip with the specific like filter of why is this a distinct pillar and not just part of the function category yeah so ccip the cross chain interoperability protocol was basically built from the ground up to provide the most secure cross-chain messaging and took cross chain token transfer solution for public and private blockchain so when you're you can kind of think of an oracle

Network or rather you could think of a cross Chain Bridge as an oracle Network where the data source is another blockchain effectively but you have to deal with the unique properties of blockchains that they can reorg and they can basically a transaction that was once on the chain is no longer there and it's you're directly moving the transfer of funds from one chain to another or it's kind of abstract away but that's basically what you're doing so you're not just moving data you're moving tokens and value so like the security threshold that you need to secure that is even higher than what you would see for data and computation because the incentives to corrupted are so much higher so ccip basically takes the approach where there's multiple Oracle networks actually that work in combination where you have an oracle Network that reads a transaction that

needs to move across chain and commits to it on the destination chain there's this independent Network called the risk management Network which runs completely independently it runs in a different code base it was developed by a different team to basically validate was that commitment that cross-chain commitment actually legitimate was that what the original sender actually said is this like does that transaction actually exist on the on the source chain still and then once that's been approved then there's a commitment Oracle Network that basically executes whatever that cross chain execution was supposed to be like moving tokens or swapping tokens or or doing whatever on the destination chain so like you have this multi-layered security with this like the secondary validation Network that ensures ccip is actually executing what it's supposed to be executing and

that's I think that's kind of a unique approach where a lot of cross chain bridges are just like one validator set they see something happens on another chain they move it to the other chain it's done but that can lead to problems with three orgs or that that that Network can become corrupted or conflict of interest or whatever so having this secondary validation network is really what that's like the the secret sauce that actually makes this interaction secure to ensure that the executions happen as they're as they're supposed to and I think the you know interoperability is blockchain to blockchain so PRI public to private private private public to public all these combinations but it's also inoperability with traditional systems so if you're a traditional bank or institution you know and there's hundreds of blockchains l1s l2s l3s the

work required to integrate with each one of those chains is intensive and if you want to move the assets between those different chains you know you have all these different Bridges to choose from so ccip also offers institutions like this abstraction layer where if an institution just connects their backend system to ccip they can connect to any public or private blockchain and move assets between any of those supported chains as well so it's kind of an all-in-one interoperability product that I think a lot of other Bridges they're not even stepping that far they're just focused on moving random tokens between ethereum and Solana and Avalanche or whatever other chain but if everything's going to move towards institutions issuing tokenized assets currencies Equity Commodities whatever on chain they want to get the greatest liquidity

they need to access all the different chains their counterparties use they need a really simple solution to do that so inoperability connectivity whatever you want to call it is like a crucial property that uh the ccip is directly enabling so I'm super curious to because like on the one hand the way that I'm understanding CCI p as you sketch it out is it is like all of the best as you said it's it's built from the ground up so we're not taking anything from the earlier products but it's the all the best ideas from you know the original Oracle Network and chain link functions but it's like re-engineered from the ground up to be specifically about blockchains and blockchain security

right which which is awesome but you're also talking a little bit about how like institutions like let's just pick Wells Fargo like a huge bank right would Wells Fargo use ccip to integrate their I.T system with um with let's say ethereum and then all of like the other ones but let's just keep it to ethereum for now or is this um yeah is that is that the direct Connection by which they're transferring assets they're sending ethereum transactions or is that really a Data Network that allows them to then interact with ethereum directly yeah so I'll use a specific example with real Bank names versus hypothetical because

why not so uh yeah chain link uh recently did a collaboration with swift the interbank messaging system that's used across all banks and there was 12 other Financial Market infrastructure providers and institutions dtcc euroclear being white melon ANZ Lloyd's all these different entities where they basically use ccip to connect existing Swift infrastructure where Banks already have Swift messages that's how they communicate with one another they want to use that existing Swift infrastructure to send messages and commands to blockchains like ethereum so rather than rebuild the entire Tech infrastructure in our back end which they don't want to do because these mainframes from like the 70s secure trillions in value and they don't want to touch it because it works but they still want to connect to this new technology they can use CCAP to

basically send messages to blockchains so they can issue assets they can interact with smart contracts on ethereum or other chains and they can also use at the same time to move their tokenized assets cross chain which means uh uh you know if a counterparty has tokenized cash or stable coins on one public chain another counterparty has tokenized Bonds on a private chain and they want to trade with one another without a cross chain solution you're kind of blocked effectively but if with ccip you're able to do cross-chain tokenized asset settlement where those assets move across the different chains simultaneously to facilitate those traits so it doesn't necessarily matter what is what chain institution wants to use they can trade with every other institution who's also connected to every other chain and have their assets

on specific chains that they prefer and they can still trade with each other effectively so that's kind of the the the the the message passing component of sending messages from the banks to blockchains and then there's the cross chain portion which is smart contracts using CCAP to send messages to other smart contracts and other chains and this whole flow is kind of all connected together so the institution basically just doesn't even need to change anything they just keep using their Swift swift infrastructure and now they unlock all these tokenized assets and all these different uh you know Global liquidity and all the benefits of smart contracts instantly through their existing infrastructure but I think is to me seems like the most realistic path for institutions to actually adopt blockchains because they're not going to throw out everything they've built over

the past 100 years just to adopt a new technology no man first like the funniest thing you just said is about the mainframes and stuff like very quick antidote I used to work first in it and then in finance for Anheuser-Busch um which is you know Budweiser and Bud Light and like literally in order to get like the real archival data we would have to call someone who would go to the data center to pull the data off of magnetic tape in 2013 to 2018. you know like that's really how our financial infrastructure is run on like super super Antiquated technology and so yeah it's super important to be able to integrate with how business is done today and not just like kick and scream

about how we have a better solution and why don't you just like take the risk of migrating a trillion dollars over right that's crazy that's not gonna happen yeah it's kind of the difference between like what what's idealistic versus what's pragmatic like idealistically everybody just ditches what they're using and adopts blockchain and that's their settlement layer but like that's so risky like you're not gonna be able to convince a CEO or a CTO to take on that risk uh when when the benefits you know they want to make incremental progress and and see the results and then scale up over time so pragmatically it's better just to connect the existing systems and over time more and more of the operations happen on chain on whatever chain that they want to use and then use like a standardized cross chain solution to to connect all these things

together so it to me it seems like a very practical approach schwartsha I haven't seen what was past implementations which have been siled Gardens and you know pitching replace everything with a blockchain which uh that's gotten Enterprise blockchains are pretty bad rap because of the Impractical approach that they're asking of people yeah I mean listen the only one that's going to win on the Enterprise blockchain one is JP Morgan the Enterprise building a blockchain and not anybody building a blockchain for Enterprise so um yeah man spot on and I think like the most just like interesting crucial unlock of this conversation is like really recognizing that like the point of ethereum is to create this like Untouchable beautiful pristine database

right that's what the evm is it's just a simple database and like what is Swift like yes it's not a blockchain at all like yes there's no like consensus or security or whatever it's like the most Trust of trust trust based Trust Systems trust right but at the same time like all it really is a shared database between these Banks and so what ccip does is say not only can we connect ethereum to it to l2s or to Solana or cardano or like any other chain it's also about recognizing that all a chain is is like a special purpose type of compute and and database and so we can connect

a blockchain to anything that has the same properties even if it doesn't come in the same package yeah exactly and it's it's not about like throwing the uh the baby out with the bathwater approach we're like Swift is like it's already used they have like a network of 11 000 Banks and that Swift is really like a private key Network actually they're like the largest network of every Bank as a private key and that's how they they verify messages with one another so like private keys are used in blockchains like why throw out the whole system that's pretty useful for blockchains already so it's it's like this natural marriage between the two where I mean the trust assumptions aren't going to be the exact same of you know Enterprises using Enterprise blockchains versus using Bitcoin on the Bitcoin blockchain but I think they're just different use cases of the

technology and people are going to use whatever version or implementation of a blockchain application that's the most relevant to them and because all this technology is permissionless you know nobody's stopping you from just uh if you just want to trade some tokens on uni Swap all day every day 24 7 like you're free to do that like you're that's that's your prerogative uh but if you want to you know use tokenized cash to engage in OTC sales of like traditional you know Securities a lot of banks want to do that and blockchains are way cheaper and way faster to do that and uh can coordinate Global liquidity with one another that's useful as well so it's like I think as like the years go on the things we realize we can actually do with blockchain is just keeps expanding and expanding and expanding and it's like those old use

cases never went away it's just for finding new cool we can do with blockchains and I think that's that's one of the most exciting things in crypto is that uh it moves very fast but there's always new things happening if uh if you ignore all the noise and the chaos that happens in the meanwhile man beautiful way to segue to our conclusion here so CLG with the last few minutes um I would love if you could just give me and the audience just some of the things that you're really excited about for chain link for oracles and for blockchain and if it is something directly to do with ccip and like maybe you what that's going to unlock or if it's you know even looking further in the future like what today is especially today in the bear Market what today is

um getting you really excited and looking towards like specific Milestones specific milestones in the future yeah I think it's kind of what I mentioned before but I think like we're reaching the state where blockchains are actually useful for institutions where that's always kind of been the narrative like oh institutions are coming uh but sometimes in the context like they're going to buy our bags I think it's more so they're actually going to use the technology and they're going to issue more and more assets on chain PayPal just launched a stable coin we saw the Swift experiment with all these different banks you exploring using blockchains I think that there's kind of been a shift where institutions want to issue tokenized assets Like Larry finka BlackRock is talking all about tokenized assets I think there's a report by ey or

somebody about 93 of institutional investors see token tokenization as the future of how the financial system will work so so it feels like we're kind of we're reaching that point where you know crypto isn't just going to be about gambling on these different coins anticipating maybe it'll be useful in the future but we're starting to actually see movement from institutions tokenizing their assets putting them on chain and being able to use blockchains as an actual settlement layer for potentially trillions of dollars in financial assets flowing across these different networks and using using smart contracts and a lot of the tooling that's already been built out for them so I to me that seems like the major Catalyst since uh you know retail kind of got wrecked by everything that's happened over the past year funds basically got wrecked as well but

institutions are more interested than ever than I've seen and like not just the Bitcoin ETF uh spot ETF potential but just actually using the technology itself so I kind of see in the future that's the same way where we can't really imagine what the world would be like without the internet it's so ingrained into how Society works and what we do on a daily basis it'll be the same thing with blockchains where either somebody's using a blockchain directly like they hold their own private key and they're using and gaming applications or they're using decentralized social media or whatever or the institutions that they already rely upon and use they're using blockchains on the back end to offer new products to their consumers that are cheaper that are more verifiable they can prove they're not screwing you over because everything's being settled on a blockchain that vision seems like it's

happening you know it's not completely realized yet and it may take time with regulatory Clarity but I think that it's we're in a state where that vision is more clear than it's ever been and I think that's that's super exciting to eventually see the whole financial system actually executing on channel on these different blockchains and everything becoming this interoperable internet of contracts all working with one another so that's really what's what's uh taken my interest over like the past year as I've read through these different Enterprise reports and seen how they've shift their tone for sure and it's I mean it's hard not to give that answer when you literally have Swift like writing papers about chain link and ccip like it that's huge man that's literally unimaginable like when I injured crypto two years ago but let

alone when you entered crypto or god let's talk about like when vitalik entered crypto and so I think you're totally right and if you'll indulge me for one moment um when I entered crypto like part of it the the main reason that I was got interested and stuck around was not for like any of this crazy D5 stuff or ve tokens or like perpetuals or any of that stuff it was at Anheuser-Busch I was the cash manager for almost two years no no for over two years and they like messing with actual money and large amounts of money is terrible like it really is true that all of these banks

are on Mainframe systems from the 70s and it's so slow and not like this transparency we talk about is a problem for the world's second largest consumer product goods company in the world and like man I have stories to tell you about like what it's actually like to do a wire transfer of over a billion dollars like it's crazy it doesn't make any sense like you they literally tell you it'll settle in six to seven hours and we don't know what where the money is in the meantime is that some correspondence Banks it's over here like we don't know like stop calling us and so like what I am like really excited about um for crypto and 4 chain link but especially after having this

conversation is like something that we don't talk about ever and I think it's because almost no one in this industry has real experience in international business but like half of my job was just figuring out how to get extra cash from us to UK or like you know we have like production problems in Belgium we need to just like get a bunch of extra money there in order to like fix something like how do we route that from South Africa or you know like crazy just money problems that like most people don't even realize our entire jobs and industries and so like when I see crypto I I think like oh my God if Anheuser-Busch could use ccip to plug in with Swift on the European

side with their European Banks and then again plug in with using ccip with Swift on the American side with the American Banks like the actual job of cash management becomes so much easier because you can actually manage your own cash and so like what I'm excited about is like everything that we've talked about everything that's already out there in crypto Twitter but like what I'm really really excited about is like for for finance managers and like real business people to to understand that this isn't just like some pie in the sky hippie stuff that is about like decentralization in governments and all this stuff but it's about technology that is better than the old way we were doing things

yeah I think he put it well there it's uh it's I think a lot of people don't realize how broken the financial system is or like they don't interact with it they use fintech which is kind of like a Band-Aid Solution on kind of a broken system realistically like when you make a transaction with PayPal or VISA it's not settled like that's just like the authorization it's settled like days Days Later like we still do t plus two security settlement like the system is just pretty archaic and most people don't see it they just see higher fees in worse products basically and so like tokenization will probably be in the background but those benefits will flow down to them just due to the nature of competition between different institutions and different Enterprises competing with one another and yeah like you mentioned just the internal efficiencies alone of moving your own

money around is is something that can't be can't be ignored and something I think a lot of people don't even think about they think the financial system works in a different way than it really does in reality so I I think that's part of part of the reason crypto doesn't really get the full uh I don't know if respect's the right word but just like they don't see what it like the utility is it's because they don't see what the problem is in the first place so the solution doesn't feel like it's needed uh but it's inevitable anyways and most people won't even know they're using crypto in my opinion it'll just be abstracted away just like nobody knows what Cloud Server Netflix runs on and they don't really give a either they just want to watch their movies right so it's the same thing with moving

money around they just want to move the money they don't care how it gets there they just care how fast and how secure it is so yeah it's it's interesting to see how this will play out man that was I I need to go back and pull out that line I love that that's so good that most people don't understand crypto because they don't even understand what the problem is like I think that's spot on and I think that like the opportunity for us is like to be here and to see it first and then most critically to build it right like that's what we're here to do we're Builders and um man all I can say is like I wish I saw it when you did and I'm just so excited to be here with you now so CLG thank you so much for

such a great conversation I'm so glad we were able to like go back to basics on what Oracle was and then like bring us through to how it's about to change the world um really appreciate the time in the conversation so thank you absolutely thanks for having me on it's it was a good conversation for sure and uh Before I Let You Go chain link God on Twitter easy to find you but um anything else that like people who enjoyed this conversation should look into or check out um where would you send people uh mending uh my Twitter Chandler God on Twitter and I also have podcast CLG podcast haven't done it in a little while but uh that one's much more like Oracle focused I've seen this one's your podcast isn't just Oracle Focus but if you're curious about oracles and how they work then I I ramble and I talk

with my co-host about oracles as well yeah for people are interested well okay perfect man and I I wouldn't call this an oracle podcast or a ZK podcast or whatever call it an ethereum podcast and I just try to bring in people who for whatever reason believe so much in this space that they've been willing to you know basically sacrifice our reputations and our like good standing in society in order to make this thing real so um thank you again please go check out chain link out on Twitter and and all the amazing content he puts out and um ma'am I hope to see you soon thanks foreign