Optimism's Airdrop Is The Future of Governance | Weekly Roundup

Transcript

this episode is brought to you by bitmex the og crypto exchange that is back and better than ever you'll hear more about bitmex later in the show [Music] [Applause] [Music] we've got a weekly roundup for the first time in a couple of weeks uh santi the man the myth the legend is back uh we had too many good guests that we were bringing on the show so we uh paused on the roundups for a little bit but we got a lot of really good feedback in uh both the dms and in the discord that uh you guys wanted to hear more roundups and so we're back with the roundup so we're going to keep doing these we're going to get back to doing these every week so santi welcome back gm my friends good to be back uh we haven't forgotten

about the roundups uh so we're here we've we're thinking about it so this is going to be a big roundup uh there's a lot to talk about a lot of stuff going on as always but um yeah let's get started cool amazing all right here's what we're talking about today optimism um optimism has what i think is one of the most interesting experiments going on in governance today they did an air drop but it is much more than an airdrop uh there's also the board ape hack on instagram um we might talk about that we might also talk about some stuff with stable coins going on and some competitors to ust coming out obviously justin's son is uh trying to have his hand in that pot um there's a little thing and everything else it gets traction and everything else yeah exactly osmosis uh is voting um

for a bridging solution uh figuring out what they're doing there so we might touch on that and of course uh the elon musk twitter acquisition is going down we might talk about that as well but before we do i have to plug permissionless um permissionless is going to be the event of the year we will have around 7 000 attendees for anyone who bought or minted your perme congrats to you we minted them at around one eath uh they've shot up to about 70th and i think they're trading today around four eth so uh santee congrats i know you snagged one um and then just the speaker list is crazy we've got chris dixon dokuan vlad tenev the ceo of robin hood is making a fun little announcement on stage uh justin drake sandeep lee jin jiho nick carter

haseeb from dragonfly uh santi here's your pretty face on the page kyle simani eric peters from one river um we have chief product officer of coinbase we've got kane from synthetics man stacked rob leshner of compound obviously celcus is going to bring the fire on stage jim bianco for the macro crowd tyrone matt hogan amy oldenburg who's amazing head of emerging markets at morgan stanley so we got a stacked lineup oh we just had um emma norchette really interesting speaker people might not have heard of emma recently she is at the ontario teachers pension plan they are speaking publicly about their crypto investments for the first time ever at permissionless super excited to hear the ontario teachers pension plan so get

your ticket if you haven't already get your ticket permissionless head over to the block works website so without further ado let's jump into it um optimism optimism is an is a roll-up solution on eth they are the second biggest uh l2 um i think behind arbitrum uh they recently announced their new token op and the optimism collective on tuesday so on april 26th they announced this uh real high level and then we'll get into it they are air dropping five percent of their initial supply to 267 000 addresses little alpha here this includes not just folks who have used optimism but anyone who's uh you know it includes get coin donors bridge users multi-sig signers snapshot voters so

it's really worth checking to see if you qualify for this drop even if you haven't used optimism before a little alpha for you um i think the most interesting thing here is not just the token but actually it's more about their uh what they're doing around governance so the optimism collective is going to be governed by two different houses and here's what you need to know the first is the token house the second is the citizen house so the token house established really by this first air drop and by the way there's going to be multiple air drops token holders can vote on protocol upgrades project incentives and more things like that that looks a little more traditional like an airdrop the second is where it gets really interesting this is the citizen house which is going to be launched later in 2022 and this is going

to facilitate and govern this process to distribute retroactive goods funding generated from revenue collected by the network so like transaction fees and eventually sequencer option auctions and the interesting thing here in my mind is that these like quote unquote citizens of the citizen house are given this what they call a soul-bound non-transferable one-of-one nft and what makes this interesting is that instead of and the way i understand this tell me if i'm getting it wrong is uh instead of uh voting be uh being entirely determined by the number of tokens that you own now it's uh a little more one to one per person so if you own a million tokens i own 10 tokens which is you know realistically

probably what it's going to look like then i think we have a more a more uh fair amount of the vote instead of you having a million votes and i have 10 votes so there's a lot more here but really really interesting um an exciting rollout by uh the optimism team so congrats to them what are your takes on this santee uh we'll start from the top i mean i think uh we we talk about how important l2s are for ethereum um it is interesting the way that they structure the airdrop i thought it was pretty thoughtful uh you know people that uh you know i think it's like like badger is a very thoughtful um um you know airdrop um i think it's very purposely designed to incentivize people to bridge over and continue to bridge over and interact with optimism uh one

thing to point out of course is that optimism has a relatively low tbl compared to arbitrary which is kind of the elephant in the room here which is what is does this put put pressure on arbor trim to then go and launch a token i mean i think optimism doesn't even have one billion tbl um whereas arbitrary has like 3.6 uh orbiting of course i think benefited from having launched i think i think it was first or like their test that was was um done in a more thoughtful way of thought and full disclosure i am an investor in arbitrary i am not an optimism when you get to how that happened and why they pissed me off but look i think i'm very happy for them um wait wait wait hold on optimism pissed you off what happened not them but it was just like

certain investors in this group like uh have a tendency to block um other investors um you got blocked i got blocked from the deal did you see that did you see the deal early i i'd spoken to one of the earlier investors and i don't know the team well so you know my that might have been the reason but i i had heard also that you know one of the round that was led by paradigm they didn't allow any other funds to participate and i thought that was a very interesting decision because in crypto if you're a founder i think you always want to bring in more and more into your cap table and not alienate i felt it was just a very weird way to do it and sometimes founders want to have more funds involved and then they kind of cave into the

demands of investors which i think is a terrible decision i always encourage founders to like bring in as many as a diversified cap table um and that wasn't the case so i went out and funded arbitrary santee let me ask you this here's something i still don't understand so back in so a month ago march 17th paradigm and andreessen uh here's techcrunch article paradigm and injuries and back optimism at 1.65 billion valuation can you explain the uh like equity versus token value here so like the the optimism got funded at a 1.65 billion valuation but now you've got the token so like where is the value accruing here and what's the almost better investment that's a really good question well i'll start the way i think of these is

if you invest in the equity of the company you have to believe that most of the value will will assuming that there will be a token most of the value if not all value will accrue to the token not equity and what typically ends up happening and this is my rough kind of mental model for this is if you invest at a like 10 million valuation then you kind of multiply that by two two or two and a half to get to fully diluted network value and the reason i'm i'm coming to that is for the most part if you look at a lot of these projects uniswap and a lot of these like initially only equity investments they then distribute tokens to the

company in this case like unit swap labs i guess or in this case optimism the entity equity the entity that holds equity and they get like anywhere from 30 to 40 no more than 50 of the tokens allocated to that entity which if you had invested in equity you have a piece of right and so you and you see the relationship there right if you invested a 10 million dollar valuation equity valuation and then that that entity gets 50 of the tokens then you know that's how you you get to like uh essentially you divide by 0.5 and so like ie 2x right um and so in this case i would almost think that like if the last valuation was what did you say 1.3 million 1.3 billion 165

1.65 i would kind of rough math divide that by 0.4 to get to like a 4 billion valuation fully diluted network value so that's going to be the interesting thing here um of course once the the token is not live yet so i'm sure they're gonna be a bunch of scams you can go and check on their medium i think it was their medium announcement uh or their sub stack you can go in and check if your wallet is eligible uh for tokens um but there's no token circulating yet so everyone please you know don't fall for scams uh i never wanna be first in claiming i always wanna see like other people go uh there's like no i think there's less benefit of being

first um your second question going back to it is how does value accrue is a more important one generally speaking i again the equity versus token i think you have to believe that everything kind of in the case of uniswap in the case of you know optimism there's still going to be this entity whether it's unit swap labs or optimism labs that is probably continuing the development of the network but most of the value in the case of unishop is sort of the swap fees in the case of optimism it would be the some of the fees that are collected um and so you have to believe that the value is going to accrue to the token the question is do should l2s

have like a token and what does the token kind of serve the purpose for here um and that's a more difficult question to answer i've had multiple conversations with people about l2s and the role in in the token right because here it's a you know the people i think one thing people are might be failing to realize is that the the op token is just a governance token for the optimism collective it's not actually taking away from ethereum or eth in any way like transactions are going to continue to get paid uh transaction fees are going to continue to get paid in eth not in this op at least that's my understanding i'm pretty sure i'm right there i think you're right yeah yeah yeah yeah which doesn't fully fit the narrative of maybe some of these l2s um i think a lot of people thought that l2s

okay everyone's going to drop a token and then maybe that actually ends up hurting eth but it really helps the l2s and the value starts to accrue away from eth to the l2s because the transaction fees would start to get paid out in that native token i think this is a good move by by optimism actually i think it's not maximizing the op value right out of the gate maybe but it's it's still aligning themselves really with the ethereum community which i think is which i think is a good move yeah because keeping in mind what you said at the very beginning of this conversation it's not like optimism has like a monopoly on market share they've got about 10 of the market share um right now and i think arbitrary has about 50 55 percent of the art of the market

share so yeah it's like uh your point is is interesting in the sense of does this actually detract from ethereum l1 meaning not ethereum does this detract from eath um the native token the substrate that you use to interact in ethereum my view is very simplistically and if i'm wrong and people in the community i mean if you think this is kind of totally wrong tape please let me know but i've always felt that we're still in the very super early stages of adoption if what polygon is doing what optimism and arbitrary doing is just really increase the capacity of the network in a very meaningful way and so you're still interacting with the l1 you're still

you're still like increasing network demand and block space and so at the end of the day if you you know with eip1559 in particular it's just like you're yes more activity is happening this l2 but at the end of it you're rolling back you're bringing back some of that to l1 to settle ultimately um whether you're batching or in whatever frequency that you're doing but you're still coming back to the l1 to make that state transition and so ultimately like it's sort of like i think it's net positive no matter what sure there might be some nuances in the token design in the token structure if you're paying a native currency like like you know like polygon um or you know in in this case optimism

or if starkware or arbitromer launched their tokens i ultimately think that it's not positive for for ethereum it just it just increases the ability and the i guess the interest perhaps of users to come to that l2 and interact versus going to perhaps another chain like bsc or cosmos or polka dot or whatever they still remain faced with the choice i'll put it this way faced with the choice of going to an l2 or going to another chain like solana what do you think is better for ethereum yeah and so i i think ultimately you want to keep users in l2 environment uh and on the margins better than them totally rage winning going elsewhere yeah i mean and what optimism's done is build i mean they've built a great

flywheel here right so uh i think i think it's most interesting from a governance perspective with this kind of two collective model or two house model but the economics right the the optimism protocol generates revenue today from transaction fees and eventually from auctioning off the right to sequence transactions um ak like block space is valuable right and we all we all know that and it becomes even more valuable as the ecosystem gets richer and richer and richer and then this protocol revenue gets uh will be used to fund public goods through these rounds of like retroactive voting and then this creates ecosystem-wide incentives to build for public benefit right and so now you've got this this uh this flywheel right so you've got like demand for uh op block

space drives uh generation of like sequencer revenue which drives funding via these like retroactive votes uh which drives value to the users and builders which drives more demand for op block space and so yeah they've built a really nice really nice flywheel here so i think one other interesting thing that they've done i'd like to get your take on this is uh uniswap had this um they popularized the like one and done airdrop right you use our product and at some point when we launched this token or like we're trying to get mainstream adoption of the token we're to do this air drop and it's going to go it's going to be one time right it's this feels like a line in the sand where the the kind of one and done air drop

model gets abandoned in favor of a more multi-round like iterative airdrop machine so i'd like to get your takes on that yeah you're seeing like that 14 that's um reserved uh for future airdrops i think it's smart yeah well they really only did five percent right out of the gate right now and and they reserve more for for future air drops yeah exactly yeah ultimately you want to have look it's going to get competitive right they're going first other than polygon but like they're going first it's really what's our return going to do now uh in starkware um but presumably arbitram is coming next and so you wanna as always as a protocol you wanna reserve as much flexibility to i mean this is valuable currency to use down the road for bd for partnerships or

referral programs or whatever and i've i actually saw this firsthand in in urine you remember like the extreme case is wi-fi that got fully kind of there was nothing left for air drops the entire supply of wi-fi was fully allocated to people that farmed wi-fi early on and then what do you do from that and then like there was this whole discussion i think ultimately what ended up happening is there was a mint that i was a big part of suggesting an increase in supply of wi-fi and a lot of that was reserved for partnerships and referrals and and i think uh it is super valuable currency the worst spot that you can be as a protocol is to not have any more of your native token to go around um to be competitive in this environment well

here's the end now here's the here's my simple way of thinking about it is if let's say you're building a company right you're building a venture back company not in crypto you would you usually what happens is you allocate like maybe 10 or 15 for employees right out of the gate and when you hire employees and you want to give them some equity you might give a little equity and let's say you want to give some maybe you're a web 3 native person you want to give some of your community some some of your equity um you're going to give some of that pool to your to your community but you would never give it all in one in one batch in one fell swoop right you would never say okay we've been building this company for two years now it's time to dump all of our 10 to

15 options pool onto our community and employees you would say all right we've got this 15 reserved why don't we give like three percent to employees and maybe some some big community members right now but let's save some some dry gunpowder right for when we have more big employees that we need to hire and when we have more big community members that we want to actually allocate this to and so that's like this feels more in line with uh a model that does work decently well which is like this almost employee options and equity pool that has existed for years and years and years yeah that's a great analogy i think i really like that optimism kind of found the maximum number of ways to reward as many on-chain behaviors as

possible so they didn't just say okay we're going to look at the optimism behaviors we're going to they said we're going to look at all of the long-term loyal behaviors of a user in crypto and we're going to reward them and i think other projects have almost approached this is like how can we process of elimination take out people who have not interacted with us and they they almost penalize people who didn't do enough so um yeah i like that by the team yeah i think uh the key highlight here as you point out is still too early to tell um what is actually gonna be governed what is the the impact to ethereum l1 like particular eth and value crew layer um the more important one here from an experiment standpoint that i'm going to be looking at closely is this this kind of

non-token holder centric dow governance multi-chamber which i think is pretty interesting because it is less it becomes less of a you know how a corporation is wrong meaning i if you own 10 of the company you can you can control it you can sway it if you don't it's more so like actual politics which is every citizen has one vote and it will be pretty interesting to observe how that happens yeah tldr this is a new approach to l2 decentralization and governance um i think it's going to influence pretty much all other l2s as vitalik said this is possibly the biggest attempt at non-token holder-centric dow governance so far and um yeah really excited to see where this goes so congrats to the

optimism team now l2 summer o2 summer baby l2 summer um all right let me pose a question before we get into the next topic which is this board 8 instagram hack 2020 summer defy summer really drove the d5 market for the next 12 months 2021 summer salon is summer really kicked off the the l1 battle right 2022 what's the summer of 2022 uh rising inflation uh i don't know i guess i guess like if i'm going back to the summer of empire if i go back to my predictions that i just opened up now i i predicted that the merge was going

to happen in q2 which is ethereum's transition to proof of stake if you layer on top of that this l2 kind of rising activity because of token drop and and just more protocols like deploying and migrating to l2 i think that sets and this goes back to the episode with travis um just renewed interest in ethereum i felt that a lot of last year was you know fair criticisms to ethereum but at the same time a lot of capital migrating away from the ethereum ecosystem you remember the battle between sue and kane in a very public manner i think a lot of investors have been kind of neglecting ethereum for a while um and

you know it's not perfect but at the same time it's hard to overlook it and sometimes it's crazy because as an investor you always want to go for the new shiny toy meaning the new l1 right and try to replicate that and um look it's exciting i get it some l ones are truly kind of at the cutting edge and trying to innovate and you know it's a theorem was like that you know a couple years ago but it has felt that a lot of the attention has shifted elsewhere and i think this is positive to bring it back home and i call it home because i'm mostly ethereum centric um that's no surprise there but i think um yeah the merge plus this l2 kind of wars if you will um i think it's the summer where ethereum

um it's a new chapter for ethereum and it will be front and center i think if you're encrypted when you're in web 3 i think it's gonna it's gonna be hard to overlook yeah yeah i completely agree i i would say the summer is categorized by two things one is uh ethereum um i think uh i think ethereum ends up having a really exciting summer um and the second is all of these crypto games that uh i know you're you you know and love them and you're very deep into a lot of them are actually launching this summer and so that should make for a really exciting yeah i mean um we the episode with kieran is coming out this week had a really good discussion with him people know that i'm an investor i'm very active this project i spent the most amount of time but the game

launched and is out this week and for the first kind of batch of testers and um it's pretty awesome yeah it's very awesome and it goes back to what brooks that episode with brooks right who's building noir he said it very clearly it's uh you know if it if you if it's not fun meaning if you get if you have all the money in the world and you're still playing it then that's the game and i think that's what i feel that a lot of to your point a lot of these web 3 games launching soon are gonna approximate or actually fulfill that characteristic which is so important um the last thing i'll say is i tweeted about this like just on the gaming front i think we should

move away from saying play to earn and rebrand as play and earn because played iron is just like a terrible like term that i think opens up to unfair criticisms um of where this space is kind of truly headed and it doesn't really capture the opportunity set here which is you're playing and earning but you're playing yeah yeah i i agree i like that um a couple days ago uh board ape um let's see what is it so uh the 25th um the morning of the 25th the official board ape yacht club instagram account was hacked uh the hacker posted fraudulent linked to a copycat of the board ape website with a fake airdrop

where users were prompted to sign a safe transfer form transaction this transferred their assets to the scammers website um obviously board ape immediately discovered the hack they alerted the community they removed the links from the compromise ig account and they attempted to recover the account uh they made a post on twitter but it happened pretty quickly and um there were uh several million dollars worth of nfts hacked um which is really just really too bad i think there were like four board apes six mutant apes a couple of kennels uh a couple other just like really valuable nfts were were transferred to the hacker and based on the floor price of all of those nfts it's looking like between like seven to 12 million dollars worth of value from these nfts that were hacked so

yeah i don't know it's really it's really just a shame and i think um uh it is a reminder that when when you make a mistake with bear assets there's no getting it back right if i make a mistake with my bank of america account and i send a wire to a routing number that has the wrong thing i can get that back right i can call b of a and chase or whoever it is and get that back there's there's no getting this back there's no calling that a mask and getting this this transaction fixed no i agree i think the the the positive element of all this is that it is becoming harder for a hacker to to kind of take leave and and with like funds in this case the nft you sell it you try to withdraw those funds from a

centralized exchange good luck okay you can use tornado but i think as an industry you know unfortunate but we're work through trial and error we're becoming more like unified in that front to like okay fine hacks will happen people are gonna get their keys compromised for whatever reason unfortunately but um you know it's hard it's a transparent system so it's kind of hard to to get away with it so that's the upside of it of course it's not fun uh it happens it can happen to anyone really um the the thing that kobe highlighted which i think is really smart is we need uh better custody solutions for um both you know erc20s and nfts and just bare assets in general and so

um whether it's a multi-sig uh whether it's you know a trusted custodian but ultimately like an eoa which is this sort of like asset sitting in just one wallet that can with a click of a button you can like make a terrible mistake feels like a feels like very much v1 and then we're going to be looking back on this and saying everything should be controlled by multiple there should be some a more human-friendly logic to everything right of course it comes at the expense of speed at times right when you're trying to anyone that's been endow governance yeah good luck trying to corral like multi-sig votes over the weekend it's it's impossible

but you know when you're it just again when you're these are not low value items right and so sometimes it's okay to be slow on these things um and so i think uh yeah i'm hopeful i think this is a big opportunity for someone to build like a custody solution for nfts for for like retail yeah yeah i mean i i think there are two ways to go here one is um so here's what kobe said by the way for anyone who didn't see the co-between he said yuga labs or apecoin dao should create a custody service asap they're the only people that have the trust and distribution they could give an official custodied ape nft that is not a redeemable receipt but acts as a proof of ape so that board ape owners can still flex with a hot wallet users would

kyc add their board apes to ape cage custody it's a nice marketing name kobe obviously marketing genius and in return get the same ape minted with some unique cage custody design users can show off that they own a cool ape with their own wallet with proof of a proceed but they need to kyc to withdraw the ape i think there's i think two there are two things that should either happen one is that um yeah like coin coinbase cut like coinbase and like you should be able to custody your uh you should be able to custody your nfts in more of a coinbase or kraken or a gemini type of solution or what some of the big projects should do i think is partner with someone like a fireblocks copper coinbase gemini i'm gonna upset someone

because i forgot to mention them here but one of the big custodians um and basically whoever didn't mention is because we're in top of mind and if that's you go and build this goddamn thing because you'll then be top of mind yeah exactly yeah exactly exactly so like no but but really like uh board ape could could partner with coinbase custody or with gemiini custody or with bit go or with fire blocks and create a white label you would never nose fire blocks behind the scenes but create a board ape custody solution it really wouldn't be too hard yeah no i i agree i mean this is an opportunity big big opportunity uh i think uh i have been surprised um i was going back to one of my initial

conversations uh so i i've owned board apes before um i didn't know you were an ape owner so what did you buy and when did you flip i meant to sell i meant it oh you meant to mint it and then also uh you sold too early that's why that's why you're salty about the apes i just aesthetically they don't appeal to me as much as other nfts sure i'm sure that being said i'm i'm very impressed with what they built this is i i will continue to say it and i will be very upfront this has been my terri my worst takes of my predictions for 202 which was that the punk floor would always be above four days like yeah folks anyone listening i'm an idiot thank you i think about this a lot i

lose sleep over certain things but hey we live in the learn i'm not perfect what price do you sell sell your uh your 48 pounds the first one was like a 30 east yeah i felt it was toppy 30 then then 40 and i was like all right and i was having a conversation with tom shout out to tom delphi and we both said like it feels like nft is like it feels like a rational exuberance here like yeah like like there's a rotation that's going to happen imminently to like ethereum to d5 which has been totally out of favor we still are here you have azuki's and you have moon birds and you have oh my god mike and i have this we could mike and i could have joined you on that conversation we have this we have this to talk every single day i'm like it

feels like it's a little too toppy in nfts and i was telling mike that i was like i've been diving really deep into the into the moon moon birds project and i was like we should we should really cover nfts more closely and mike's like that's a top signal i was like you've been saying top signal in nfts for 18 months now like at some point now we have music nfts and everyone's talking about music nfc yeah yeah totally to be fair i've just stopped paying attention to stuff i mean it's i pay attention to it because i invest in nft infrastructure right but you know last time you're you're not buying you're you're not like i'm not buying most people think that i'm collecting like i've outsourced my collecting to like please or dao because that's just like we go for really high value stuff that is iconic to internet

culture and that's it like i own a decent percentage of pleaser and i'm happy with that and like i'm involved i'm in the from the council like this is but ask me the last time i kind of went in d gen wise and like minted stuff yeah we interrupt your programming with a special announcement empire has a new sponsor santi and i are very excited to welcome bipmix that is right bitmex is back the exchange we all know and love is back and better than ever we're going to be dropping a couple updates on bitmex over the next couple of months this first one is a big one coming soon bit mex is rolling out their spot exchange and they're giving away 500 000 in bitcoin to new users that's

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now let's get back to the show so so you're not paying attention to like like aku like aku dream like akutars just launcher acutars whatever you call aku dreams and like obviously moon birds just went up from like a two to like what 35 or something you're not you're not paying attention to this i'm paying attention i'm not like you're not you're not participating i'm not participating no yeah and you know i was thinking about this last night it's just like i'm reading this really good book um by robert greene he's a little bit magical but it's like laws of human nature it's just good because it has a lot of historical references about characters and archetypes and it's like you got to do did you write the what the 48 laws of

power he wrote the 48 laws of power which are super immaculate you know people read this and like start applying them like and sometimes they like chill like i know you're applying rule 47 right now like back off um but it's dense and so i think like you know one of the like the one of the most recent like chapters i was reading is like newton people forget what like newton like got terribly robbed uh investing in like the south sea company or something like isaac newton john's like ladies and gents the guy that like the apple fell and he like developed all these kind of like really in foundational pieces in physics he uh was a terrible investor uh and like he felt trapped to like fomo and like

you're literally reading this it's like it happens to everyone yeah my takeaway to that is like i just have found comfort in like sticking to what i know best and trying to perf perfect my edge and like it is very very hard for me to really kind of focus on that and build the themes and do what i think do best and like participate in every single mint and like right keep track of it it's just like impossible and i i've sort of like come to terms that i'm not i'm not gonna a catch them all b be the first but if look at board apes as an example yeah i was terribly wrong there my lesson there is pay attention to what's happening and it's funny because i've if you if you go back and like pretty much every episode

that we've recorded or that i've been a part of not just here i talk about board apes of how interesting it has been in how they went to market and they built a community and they're laying a bunch of services around that and it's attracting capturing the imagination people that are not in crypto and like over 50 of their people in the community it's this is their first thing related to crypto maybe they're only one and for me like i should have just paid attention to what i was saying you know because maybe someone that was listening to this probably went out and bought a board but 20 and 30 and 40. and here we are at 147.

um and that's been my learning um and so my takeaway there is you know i'm not gonna be first in many of these things but at least you asked me if i pay attention yeah i pay attention to the moon birds yeah i'm paying attention to azuki's because suzuki's are attracting a very interesting crowd and so like you know um keep an open mind about hi how high these floors can get maybe i don't know i i thought it was toppy for board apes at 50. you should um participate in every part of crypto so you should go buy nfts and you should you should experience what it's like to to like bridge assets from 1l1 into the other you should go play a crypto game

you should play a couple of crypto games right you should trade on a dex you should also uh get a ledger and see what it's like to use a ledger you should also hold some some crypto with like a centralized service and see what that onboarding is like you should have uh you should you should participate in every aspect of the crypto eco ecosystem you should that being said you should minimize fomo and trying to play at every aspect of the crypto ecosystem perfectly and the reason for this is like if you're always chasing nfts or if you're like trying to yield farm perfectly there's only so much mental bandwidth a human can have that that that's time that's taken away from like your your most valuable project whatever that may be so

i don't even know what it is for you but for me it's block works right so like every time i'm chasing another nft or minting or like yield farming to try to optimize my optimism airdrop like that's time that's taken away from me building building block works and like for anyone who wants to build something impactful long term like all of those times you're chasing something else in crypto is is time that you're not actually building something impactful yeah yeah absolutely um you know i think your point's a very good one which is i think hobbyists are early and chris as a great chris from may 16th chris dixon uh he says you know technology really starts at the fringes by these hobbyists whether it's like radios or the internet and crypto very much is like that too

and i think hobbyists are just generally curious curious beings above average they have above average curiosity and in crypto i think you want to be experimented with a lot of things to to hone in on what you do best a lot of people come and ask hey how do i get involved in this space i'm like well you just name 10 things that they could do right and then in that process you're going to probably uncover things that are not working very well in the space and so for that reason i think you should always maintain a level of curiosity and over time you just kind of ossify and solidify certain frameworks and areas of interest um and i think that's moved into space for a while and so like i think like for me i do early stage pretty actively this is what i do

and i'm trying to find the next ave the next step and the next alluvium and it's kind of impossible for me to really kind of do that to the best of my ability by participating in every single nft problem it's impossible right yeah um all right let's uh let's move on to another piece of news which is uh stable coins um it looks like when something happens in crypto usually other people uh something happens and it goes well other people follow suit and uh shout out to our our buddy do kwan over tara has done something really interesting with ust and and other builders are are um keeping an eye on that and actually following suit so two announcements one is justin sun of tron announced that he is launching or i guess they are launching a tron dao is launching uh

usdd which is a decentralized algorithmic stablecoin that is going to be pegged to the dollar and they will have 10 billion worth of crypto that they're using as collateral if the 10 billion dollar sounds familiar it's because uh or i don't want to say because but it's similar to uh dokwan's plans to acquire 10 billion dollars of bitcoin to serve as the reserves for ust i think the interest rate on this for what he said was i've got the summer i think it's um 30. the tron dao yeah we'll administer a reserve with a 30 interest rate yeah yeah 30 and then on the other side of things you've got um ilia and who we recently on the podcast great episode near uh is launching

um usn which is another stable coin um i think this is actually going to have a 10 interest rate to start but maybe go up to like twenty percent they said um what are what are your thoughts on on all of these stables starting to hit the market um i mean i i haven't looked closely uh i mean thirty percent doesn't sound like risk-free or sustainable but sure fine um maybe it's sort of the the the the gimmicky like click bait flashed savings rate and then they drop it to like ten or five or one um but um no look i mean every ecosystem needs to have a robust kind of stable coin offering and whether it's native built by by the team or or it's some

some variation of um i mean i still remember talking to the maker team uh over time and in stable coins i've invested in a few all across the spectrum of you know something like circle and looking at that and looking at you know what they were building which has built an incredible business off of like the consortium of uscc to you know algorithmic stable coins and everything in between maker kind of the seniors model like and the maker team was like there's kind of when you think about it there's really no benefit of going first and designing a stable coin uh that is not like centralized uh because it can be easily copied and of course there's distribution in modes and what have you but if you're a brand new l1 or that's taking off like it just has opens up the

possibility of someone copying elements of what's been working in ethereum and then just bringing it back i think that's what you're seeing here um i think it's not positive ultimately uh i i think that having stable queen diversity is i've always felt like stable queen centralization meaning it is kind of the achilles heel of the industry right i mean you shut off uscc and like diva collapses um i wonder why more people are not talking about the systemic risk perhaps that tara might pose to some to bitcoin they're gonna have a lot of bitcoin in their balance sheet like what happens if they have to sell bitcoin immediately to stabilize a peg like okay bitcoin maximus like pomp or like woohoo you know the thought is that

it's like perfect collateral so that there's always a buyer um right there no i get that i get that but when you try to liquidate like four billions of dollars of bitcoin like in a flash yeah you know well that's not gonna be fun um you know it's like if satoshi all of a sudden moved his coins like all hell breaks loose um and so yeah you know i think these just again i'm not like being critical it's just like there's a higher concentration of a bitcoin holder here which is the terra like lfg or whatever um if they need to kind of recapitalize and sell some of those reserves to stabilize the peg then well that's going to have a you know that that might not be as fun for a

bitcoiner looking at that um but yeah or a ramble i'm saying is these are interesting things i don't know how you tron is going to sustain 30 uh if justin's listening we'll love to have you on and just talk about this um and i think you went to wharton so you know i think like you know 30 is not necessarily risk-free or sustainable so i would love to have a do you think he went to wharton you think i think he went to work yeah i'd love to have the senior economist and the tron foundation come in and enlighten us and how this is sustainable uh and he just followed me on twitter last week so now i can dm him so uh okay great i'll find i'll have him bring him on great let's bring him on or his senior you know economic advisor whoever that may be

cool cool um yeah we'll see we'll see yeah i mean ah it's interesting i mean this this kind of feels like a rerun of like the l1 you know when all the l1 stuff was playing out last summer after solana ran up and then avalanche and like things got really really hot um and then all the basically all these ecosystem funds announced because it was like oh there needs to be a [ __ ] ton of capital that goes into these l1 ecosystems so let's fundraise uh to build on these ecosystems now it's like oh all these new ecosystems need a stablecoin um i don't actually think they all need a stablecoin but they all think that they do and so you're gonna get the near stable coin and and the tron stable coin and that question just becomes like maybe avalanche doesn't go build the

avalanche stable coin because they're now in bed with the terror ecosystem because doe made a really smart move buying avalanche for the for uh as collateral so like is it the analogy here like every country has its own currency yeah but that's a horrible model it's a unless you're a central bank i just i just said it was an analogy like i wasn't endorsing the analogy it's a [ __ ] it's a [ __ ] for anyone that's traveled yeah these are all [ __ ] coins like all of them most of them there's this amazing post by wences casares founder of zappo i still think he is the best like thinker about bitcoin in the world uh it's it's a shame he stole he still he

sold zappo and uh it turned into coinbase custody so what we know of his coinbase custody is actually zappo xapo but he wrote this piece maybe four years ago or five years ago or something and he was like what would happen if bitcoin was the global reserve not the global reserve currency but the global reserve layer of the world so everything would actually get priced um it would basically become the pricing mechanism for which all prices are quoted in so instead of like when you say what is the yen trading at today right you you quote it in like us dollars but if you say what's the us dollar trading in it's like you quote it in another currency there's and it's like all right what is the gdp of indonesia what is the price of oil like it's all kind of quoted in u.s

dollars right now i would say um or it's all quoted in another currency or in the local currency but what if bitcoin was like this global reserve pricing mechanism satoshi's for which everything yeah yeah exactly yeah one says uh by far one of the best thinkers i would definitely agree with you i would encourage everyone to go and maybe we can link him in the show when i was like he just cried he's just a true visionary i think he was very active in our bitcoin channel too and like um yeah yeah he spent i think he spent a 200 before he invested he spent like 250 000 of his own money um trying to hack bitcoin before he ever made a purchase so yeah at one time i think has also been in the episode with kieran i was talking

about like clusters of vibrant web 3 crypto communities argentina is very much one you i think in large in large um credit to wences who's argentinian and i think he was a true luminary and inspired a bunch of other people to join like you know you have open zeppelin you have uh a bunch of the core develop core devs in a number of uh projects um that are argentinian um a lot of like core researchers um and white hackers are in argentina so um yeah no it's the other one is australia of course but i can't think of

like perhaps those are the two most vibrant kind of communities that i've seen clusters i don't know if you can think of any others no but that's a good yeah i mean he's done an amazing job it's funny i went to this one um the last one of the last things of uh interesting news here is osmosis um is going to vote in axillar today um as the kind of canonical bridge and like evm bridge and there's been like these several months of debate on which bridge osmosis should choose as their canonical bridge to bring these like evm assets into the osmosis ecosystem so you had like wormhole or or gravity bridge or nomad or axillar well i don't think we should talk too

much about this because sunny from osmosis is uh is going to actually come on the show and we should let him talk about this but one issue i think this is i think this is really important and it actually shows why bridges are sometimes not amazing um when you have several different bridges i don't know if you've actually looked at this but like the ui the the ux is horrible right now there's like fuss let's say you have like let's say like uscc gets bridged over and there's like eight different bridges there's like usdca usdcb usdcc usdcd usdc a bb and the ux is so freaking confusing it's like imagine if you um went into your bank account and there was like or

you went on to coinbase you had like 12 different kinds of bitcoin or you went into your bank account and there's like eight different kinds of the us dollar so uh that's i i'm excited to see that actually get fixed when they when they kind of put their foot in the ground with that with one bridge yep i i don't have much dad here other than very excited to have both sunny maybe uh zaki or someone else come and talk about this yeah uh maybe we should bring on tyrone as well um because like so one one thought is if osmosis attracts the majority of evm assets then osmosis kind of becomes like the default cosmos hub so i'm curious about what the implica so everyone would say okay that's bullish for adam i've heard tyrone who we've had on the show call adam the doge of l1

tokens um so i'd like to bring maybe we bring taroun on and show gets a little feisty so but that's something to keep an eye on yeah um last two piece of news uh is just fidelity announced they're going to be adding bitcoin as a 401k option later this year there are 23 000 companies that use fidelity's retirement services they can now add bitcoin to their employees investment options employees can then transfer up to 20 of their balance into a bitcoin holding account and divert up to 20 of their paycheck contributions there going forward if this was in a bull market this would be blasted around twitter and people would be going crazy this was pretty quiet news um is a crypto community but to be fair five independent people sent this to me

that are not in crypto i said holy [ __ ] this is a big thing and that's it yeah one of them yeah yeah and i was like yep it is you know it's almost it's almost reminiscent to um when the er isa erisa laws got changed and allowing pension funds to invest in alternatives including venture and it just was a huge detonator for uh pension fund resources allocated to the asset class um you know in many ways like you're seeing that in real time like you know okay we've had like to be fair we've had 401k structures and independent smaller kind of startups i think there's a few that allow you to

alto ra and a bunch of others that allow you to do this but not nowhere near the scale of fidelity like fidelity probably has the lion share um of like employee like 401k plans through your employer right like when i was a jp morgan it was fidelity when i was at another like an adventure fund it was fidelity right and so like um this is huge huge because you're going to be covering like the vast majority of the us population probably has a fidelity 101 401k like yeah yeah this is uh this is really exciting news um and just speaking of exciting news and more capital flowing into the industry huge shout out to our good buddy haseeb over at dragonfly dragonfly is one of the best crypto

funds um at least in my opinion um and uh they just raised a 650 million dollar fund uh this is their i think third fund uh 650 million dollars they brought in several ivy league endowments invesco um an undisclosed southeast asia state-owned investment company sequoia invest in the fund uh sequoia china uh kkr tiger um i remember talking to them a little while ago they were originally planning on raising 500 million for the fund and so clearly they exceeded the goal of 500 and topped out at 650. um they uh dragonflies like brief history they raised 100 million fund back in 2018 225 million dollar fund in 2021 so

just yeah they've had a massive amount of success and actually just speaking to several founders recently a lot of them say that dragonfly is one of the most helpful companies on their cap table it's probably because a lot of their team comes from like a an engineering background instead of an investing background and yeah so just amazing work by dragonfly big shout out to to tom over there and haseeb and the entire team really nice work yeah my interaction with dragonfly been super positive and i would echo that as well yeah so all right man i think that's it i think so um well per tradition i recommended a book but but um what any recent shows or books that you've read um that are interesting i'm

listening to a podcast right now called i actually hate recommending this podcast because it the title is so freaking cheesy it's called how to take over the world which is like oh it's so cringe in my mind how to take over the world more questions stop i like that name by the way rebrand empire coming soon shout out to our design team they've been working super hard so excited to get your uh your uh your pretty face on the cover and stuff like that so how to take over the world is this podcast it's a history podcast my favorite history podcast they just did episodes on they basically do these like two to three hour episodes on different like figures so i'm listening to the walt disney one right now let me scroll through some of the past ones they did like three hours on napoleon they did

three hours on alexander the great i really they did a great one on putin actually so they had a great one on putin tom sedison frederick douglass i've listened to pretty much all of these julius caesar rothschild steve jobs yeah napoleon just like i would for the history nerds out there i'd really recommend the show uh interesting i'm gonna check that i love yesterday there's one that's really good called um hardcore history hardcore history yeah that's someone i always think of hardcore history is just like it's like dan dan carlin i've listened to all those it's dan carlin's and like it's it's a bit dense in my mind it's like uh yeah it's a lot right it's like you want to listen to um about like uh world war ii it's like you're getting a 14-hour podcast you

know it's like a college it's a book yeah i have one uh i started yesterday so i not partial endorsement um apple tv um this they're doing like a lot of these features around like sports like athletes uh one just came out called they call me magic which is a history of magic johnson and i watched half of the first episode last night it looks pretty cool um i'm a sucker for these like you know like the last dance i think is one of the best documentaries out there obviously the history of the chicago bulls and michael jordan um you know the lance armstrong documentaries uh free solo um like all these like documentaries i was like people that are at the peak of their discipline i get i'm fascinated by

because i want to learn how they did it uh and magic johnson is up there he's pretty up there so anyways really good so check it out yeah yeah here's a question for you one thing that um when you read when you when you see these people who are like peak performers i think one thing that's not always clearly shown is just the uh amount of sacrifice i'm not talking sacrifice like hard work like everyone everyone's peak is like hard you know works works their ass off and stuff i'm talking like if you look at free solo i forget the guy's name but like he is alex or something he's not afraid to die right and like that's a different level you mean like the part of his brain that recognizes emotion is totally shut off it's off yeah exactly or like um you know steve jobs people look at steve

jobs like i would love to be steve jobs like that dude is a [ __ ] [ __ ] and he built an amazing he built apple which is like the coolest company of all time and the most one of the most impactful companies in history but like uh he also was an absolute dick and like had a kid and i'm pretty sure like didn't take care of that kid or something like that or like was it an [ __ ] to the the mother of that child so like i think there's always sometimes uh for like these hyper hyper hyper the most successful people in the world there's there's there's always something like that i i've found yeah uh like i i there's a great interview by um elon musk's former wife and i found a lot of comfort in that because she said

i kind of always knew that elon was going to do his thing and it wasn't easy being his wife but seeing elon do what he did was like rewarding for me but was he the best husband probably not like and so it was just like um it's interesting to read that because i think ultimately you're building a company like you you want to continue to perfect what you do like i do think that i i'm not a believer that you have to be an [ __ ] to be successful i think we over glorify that aspect which is all steve jobs was an [ __ ] um jeff bezos tough to work with uh michael jordan incredible like very very demanding of his other teammates i don't think you

need to be an [ __ ] i think i think there's a fine line between being an [ __ ] and demanding the best of people as a leader yeah um yeah and the best scene this is why i think the last tenses and i'll end it here the last stance for me was really a good documentary to the point that i recommend it to anyone that i hired to paraphrase anyone that came to pat was like just watch this because our role here is to seek perfection it's a single like as a franchise it was like being able to replicate what the chicago bulls did is like no do you want to be number two no one [ __ ] remembers number two you want to be number one and you what's most exciting about this industry is there is a wide open expanse to capture

this and like it's it's incredibly exciting there's gonna be sacrifices to that and there's a great scene there's a great great scene where they're interviewing like a lot of uh jordan's teammates and they all are saying yeah you know michael had a thing of like he knew what your weakness was and he would exploit it he would constantly put pressure on it for you to fix it and they were like it was really really hard to be with michael sometimes it was super to the point that it was just driving nuts and then at the end all of them all of them looked down on their hands and they raised the hands like they have the five five rings and no one can take that away from you now is michael an [ __ ] i don't know but i think that some people tend to think my conclusion is

you can be very demanding without being an [ __ ] you can't control how the people might perceive that but like if your intention is right which is let's actually be the best basketball team out there let's actually build the best media company out there that's actually the best fund out there if you're not willing to be on board then you might as well leave now like drop the towel i mean winning winning and being number one solves a lot of things so with that here's your call to action we're trying to build the kryptos best podcast go hit the the subscribe button yo santi i'm trying to win baby i'm trying to win we're trying to build the best podcast uh hit that like if you're not willing to you know ask for it then you're not i am reading the comments at one point we'll

share the story but i am reading the comments folks oh we also moved to a new youtube channel um we split the macro and the crypto uh the crypt the macro people did not like santi and me it was really really getting in our heads so someone said like do these people really is this all they do for a living like how miserable are they i'm like yeah yeah yeah this is all i do yes this is all i do for a living so anyways all right hit that subscribe if you're on youtube like or no follow it give us a five stars on the app on spotify and we will see you guys next week all right my friend great being here good to be back take care [Music] you