On the Future of Crypto

Transcript

two. >> All righty. It's good to be here. Um, yeah, as you can tell by the name of the panel, uh, we're going to be talking about the future of crypto, where this Titanic shaped, uh, vessel is heading. Uh, and to start, uh, maybe we can do some quick intros. Uh, Korin, I'll start over with you. >> Hi, everybody. I'm K. Uh, I work with Year Finance. We've been around for 5 years. We are one of Defi's first projects out there and we have a collection of vaults that users put money into and we take those funds and we go and deposit them into a bunch of different lending markets for like great yields and then we return everything

back to the users and we have about $750 million in those vaults today. >> Wyatt. >> Hi. Uh my name is Wyatt. I'm an investor at Castle Island Ventures. We're a Bostonbased venture firm in the crypto space. We invest in financial market infrastructure and crypto and a heavy stable coin lean. >> Hi, I'm Will. I'm a crypto intel analyst at Coinbase on the listings team. Um, and I'm primarily responsible for sourcing and doing due diligence on all the tokens we list on the centralized exchange.

>> And I'm Jake, uh, one of the one of the organizers of the conference, the Boston DAO. Um and I'm a investment partner at L1D uh which is a uh cryptofocused uh fund where we have two products. One is a uh a fund of funds product and then the other is a venture product. Um so to talk about the future of crypto I think you know and forgive me if I like monologue a bit here but I think you have to talk about the history of crypto and then we can kind of take it from there. Um so you know if you go back to the era of uh you know 2017 2018 consensus mechanisms were all the rage.

This is how we differentiated. We differentiated on technical things. Proof of work was what we were doing. Um and it was about kind of an era of scaling etc. Um and then Ethereum transitioned over to proof of stake. uh we started to see these assets being issued on chain. This was kind of catalyzed by you know smart contracts actually working um and being introduced into the programming. Um, and the the smart contracts allowed kind of like this DeFi summer uh thing that we talk about to happen where we just started depositing random sums of money into programs that were built

on more complex programs that we didn't really understand. Um, and these this DeFi summer led to something that was pretty apparent to all of us that which was like a congestion issue. And I think this is where like a lot of people got the idea that you know maybe the next thing we should focus on was not DeFi but maybe it was infrastructure. Um and so we went through this weird infra era and I don't know about you guys but this was definitely my least favorite era in crypto. Um where while there were a a lot of interesting developments and useful developments and today you can actually use crypto in a meaningful way we also got a lot of like useless stuff.

Um, and after that infra era, I think, and this is my opinion, would love to get get your guys' thoughts, but a lot of people in the space kind of got fed up in getting sold things that weren't really val to what they believe to be valuable. >> Are you talking about points? >> Points was >> Just kidding. They weren't around back then. >> There were some projects doing the points thing, right? But then this to in my opinion kind of catalyzed memecoins and what I consider to be like financial nealism in the space. And so this brings us to today's era where we have this really weird combination of memecoins and equities and stocks coming on chain

and chains going on stocks and like this weird mix where it's like the ocean has met the river. Um, and so my first question to you guys is like today, right now in your seat, if you were to project five years in the future, you know, do you think financial nealism dominates or are you like are you optim are you optimistic in the same way that I think we were when urine started, you know, and these food farms started?

So back then when the food farms were around and this was around like May and June of 2020 interest rates in the traditional world like the risk-free rate was very low less than 1%. And the only place people could really earn money digitally uh in a meaningful way like above 5% APY was in DeFi and that's how we onboarded all these people and all that TVL into DeFi to begin with. The scariest moments for me uh you know we only do onchain finance was when the risk-free rate went up and above all of those lending rates at like a and compound morpho wasn't around back then. Um that's when TVL

started to bleed out of and out of DeFi in general. Um, and I think in the future we are moving um more toward a place, sorry I'm not talking about NFTTS. We're moving more >> I totally skipped that part. I I forgot about that. >> We're moving more toward a place where um there's going to be a middle ground and people who want to uh have exposure to yields in the digital world are going to use crypto rails to some degree in the future uh whether they like it or not. And then the people who want to um like operate in the traditional world are they will also be using crypto rails. So I think the yields you know

they kind of converge uh between these two worlds uh into one single uh like central point. You you hit on memecoins, Jake, and and this point of like are you cynical or are you optimistic to to get to the crux of it. I I think memecoins were the personification of something people wanted. It was the final form of it. Like people were speculating on Celestia and people were speculating on Ando, but that was just the best possible iteration of a speculative product we were giving people. And then meme coins emerge and that to me is the proper peak. It's like you can't speculate better than you can on memecoins. So I think that was in a way always going to

happen. I I also blame the financial markets function behind crypto because we started to feed retail tokens that were overpriced and had a lot of overhang and retail just naturally got crushed on these things. So they're going to gravitate towards granted something that's maybe meaningless but at the same time something where you feel like you're playing a 50-50 game. Um I think that'll persist. I think people will want to do that continuously. I think K's point on yield is really important. There is a world here where interest rates and risk-free rate drops in the real world if certain events happen in my view at least. I think that could set off a hyperdefi cycle which I worry about for for other reasons but I think that that that's a

possibility here. >> What are those reasons? >> Why rates could come down? >> Oh no no the that you worry about it. So, one thing that I have been wondering a lot in the past year and it's frankly less of a question now was whether we we being crypto users as well as we being the protocols and the risk curators would frankly make the same mistakes I think we made in 2021 which was immense levels of leverage which was loan to values on the lending side that I think are really unsustainable and really risk on and my answer would be unfortunately yes like we are going to and making the same mistake. There's some of these stable coin products and you see LTBs of like 92% and essentially if someone has

$100, they can go get $500, $600 of leverage off of that, that is sustainable for some time in an up market. Um, but I'm just a believer that in a situation where you've one $1 billion of of actual money and you've $8 billion of leverage that the come down from that's going to be really harsh especially when all the asset prices are being propped up by DATs by these equity vehicles which are the last downstream buyer of all these assets uh when we frankly can't find them in individuals.

So, I say that I worry about the DeFi regime we get to because it's already a bit on steroids and we are making those same mistakes. But in a world where all of a sudden rates drop to 0% and then five or 6% on USDC becomes really attractive, it's going to get worse and that could mean a steeper fall for all of us. >> Worse, better kind of the same word, right? >> It's the same thing. >> Yeah. >> Will, do you do you have any thoughts? >> Financial needism versus optimism. What are you? Well, I'm an optimist and I think the reality is the whole memecoin cycle played out because we were construed by regulatory really. People weren't allowed to build real things and but there was a lot of appetite to get

involved in crypto and people started creating a lot of memecoins just because there was nothing else to do. I believe we're going to make more progress in the next five years than we made even in the last like 10 years um just because people are allowed to build now. Um, I think in general in terms of what direction that goes in, um, there are just so many. Um, I'm personally a fan of this whole internet capital markets narrative that's emerging. Um, I think there's a lot of hole in our capital markets today. Um, I'll give you an example. Um, my dad runs a small business and there are two ways to raise capital if you're a small business owner. Um, like well every there are two ways to raise capital in general. That's debt and

equity. Um, but my dad basically uh he was like, "Well, they're basically, you know, going down the the debt option. Banks are terrible at giving out loans. Um, it's a really stringent process. It's like a one-sizefits-all. Doesn't make sense for a lot of businesses, and it's gotten increasingly difficult since the financial crisis." Um, and then there's the private credit market, which is, you know, very, uh, not necessarily predatory, but bad deal terms. Um, you could say predatory. >> Yeah, I guess. Okay, we'll go with that.

Um, but then, you know, you go down the equity route and the reality is for a lot of businesses, it doesn't necessarily make sense. Well, it doesn't make sense for anyone um from the venture capitalist side or the entrepreneur side to raise venture capital because a lot of business businesses aren't like going to reach venture scale. So, then you can go down the private equity route. Um but the problem is you know right now those markets are really undemocratic. Um, private equity firms have a lot of asymmetric market power, but then you think about the future and you're like, you know, the SEC recently came out with a statement basically saying they don't want to hinder anyone in terms of raising capital on chain. And you open up this this new democratic, you know,

it's really democratizing finance where you're enabling all these small and medium-sized businesses potentially in the future to go and raise capital on chain um and sort of in a crowdsourced fashion. Um, I think that's going to be revolutionary. >> Okay. So, I'm kind of trying to decide which way I want to take this. Either I take this the product direction or I take this the regulatory direction. Maybe we can find a an intermixing here. There's a topic that's come up recently that's very topical that I wanted to get your thoughts on as to whether this is a flash in the pan like meta or if this is a long-term game and something that we will see persistently throughout the

world in the future. And to me this topic is streamer coins. Um so maybe we'll start with you. um you know from your perspective I won't ask you to give us the perspective of Coinbase because I think they have to have a very rigid perspective on this but from your perspective like what m what do you make of streamer coins maybe you can explain for the people listening a little bit about like what this idea is >> um in terms of streamer coins or you talking about things sort of like Zora or >> yeah like Zora creatorcoin pump streamercoin you know that kind of tren trend that we're seeing here.

>> Yeah. Um I mean I think obviously those are going to persist. Pump has obviously found you know like huge product market fit. Um and it's yeah it's basically enabling the creator economy which I think is a good thing. Um as far as specific opinions on like Zora and the Coinet um I think some people are deeper into that than I am frankly. I I've sort of I've been observing at a higher level. Um but I think more people in general getting involved in these these platforms enabling more people to get involved in the onchain ecosystem as an individual is a very impactful thing.

>> Corin, I saw you wanted to jump in there. >> I was going to give a view from the trenches. >> Yeah, give us the trenches. So, uh, I've been keeping an eye on how Pump came to market with their streaming a long time ago, and they had to shut it down. I didn't really pay attention to it until a few weeks ago when I heard it was spun back up. And when I first went back on there, there were a bunch of streams at the top with like really low market caps because every time someone starts a stream, they have the ability to also either launch a token at the same time or they can continue uh streaming based on the token that they previously made like days ago or weeks ago. And the ones that are coming online now, like some of

these streamers, what they're doing is they're doing a stream and then once it ends, they just dump all the tokens on the viewers and that's it. that's the end of it and then they'll come online the next day and do it again and again and again. And that's the extractive play right now. But there are some people who are doing this day after day after day with structure like this is a a workout routine that I do or like this is a there are a bunch of other streamers who do this on there right now, but like they come day after day and the people who are watching them get to know them. They get to grow their audience and that the coins are going up. like the market caps are now in the millions on the top row for the pump fund streams. And I thought that was

really interesting to like see grow zero to one and see like who are the extractive people, who are the people who are actually like doing meaningful content creation and I think that platform has like a long way to go and it maybe even is the connection between like social media, mainstream social media and crypto. Wyatt. >> Yeah. To me, this is an evolved version of the attention economy. And I'm a subscriber to this view that that a lot of the way that we see crypto tokens move in certain ways is an embodiment of the attention they're getting. And I think you see this in traditional markets to some degree as well. Um, and creator coins are like a version of that. The thing that concerns me a lot here is crypto in general creates better

financial markets and market discovery, which can be a very good thing. I think it can also be a very ugly thing. and we're kind of only seeing where the tip of that spear is going to go. So people can now create these markets where you can allow people to invest in things that that draw attention. You can potentially use financial systems to promote behaviors that might not be common good or net good. And that that's what concerns me is that they're these incentive flywheels. Try to get people to do something online, you promote bad behavior. And I I worry about that. But I do think that like this is just true market efficiency.

Okay. So steering this in like another direction, I think having just listened to the policy panel, one thing that obviously sticks out to me is like we have a very obvious definition of what a security is, right? like it it's pretty clear when you apply it to Tradfi and then when you apply it to crypto for some reason I feel like a lot of people are like whoa I don't know how that applies here when it's like still pretty straightforward. Um, and it's like it's really about whether or not you're promising anything, right, within the investment contract. Like, is am I saying invest in us and we're going to try to make this worth more? Oh, or am I just saying like, no, I'm literally going to dump this on you. You should

not invest in this. And if you do, that's on you, right? And that's kind of like Hester Pierce's take on on securities is like, hey, look, if somebody is giving you no assurances whatsoever that this is an investment, then you really cannot treat it as a security. Um, creator coins feel to me like they are leaning on that security side. And for that reason, I get like a little cautious of this meta. I think it's like a little bit more short-term. But to kind of open the question up to you guys like when you are looking at this space, you know, you guys are making long-term decisions on how to survive in the

space. To what extent do you like put any regulatory um burden into your calculation? Like are you guys worried about the regulation here? Do you how do you look at regulation as it applies within the United States? I I think we'll ignore the rest. >> I I can think of many times waking up in the middle of the night in uh 2021 through 2024 like sweating thinking about this stuff and now I don't know. It just is not top of mind.

>> Now you're just biking. >> Now I just focus on pushing the pedals. I I think the toughest part of of engaging with this and I'd say we and and portfolio companies of ours have been um conservative when it comes to regulation to a fault to our detriment and the hardest part is that we go between regimes of different levels of of regulatory enforcement which makes it really difficult to operate because I'd say if you look at the last 24 months you had many actors who I'd argue were handsomely rewarded for essentially breaking the rules and and there's just a non-inforcement regime and there continues to be a non-inforcement regime which I struggle with because that

incentivizes that behavior like you should if I were giving advice to a founder who was riskon and wanted to maximize return in the next 12 months I'd be like go do something blatantly illegal in a jurisdiction where you can make a straw man argument to do it and you'll probably do very well. Um I wouldn't bank on that on like a three-year time horizon though. I think we're going to get a much more enforcing regime. So, you have to think hard about that. But it's been a difficult landscape in that regard because we have I can't think of any substantive enforcement in the last 12 months when we've had breakthrough products that are definitionally not legal.

>> Yeah. I I think we've learned a lot about um sort of the role regulation plays in shaping this industry. um you know the last few years before you know the admin change it was pretty brutal. Um I I think in general something I'll say something I've learned I guess um from the last most recent election cycle um and then I'll I guess discuss how I I approach it personally. But um I I generally believe that regulation does exist downstream of innovation. And I think that if you are truly innovating and trying to improve the world, eventually regulatory will catch up to enable you to do that. But it takes time and it's going to take longer. It will

take a longer amount of time if you're not there advocating and educating others on why it's important, which I think the industry has done a much better job uh better job of recently. >> Okay, I have a fun question now. And some context here is uh I didn't really prepare this panel. I uh told them that we would do the panel um and that I would send them questions and I never did that. Uh so I but I the way I did prepare it is I I I did something very smart. I told them to write questions. Um so after this question I want to kind of open it up to them to ask the questions that they prepared. But I like this one. Um, so I said something to

Wyatt the other day and he didn't like it. And so I want you guys to kind of pick a side here. Um, I said I think the only three things that matter in the future from an investment perspective are robots, AI, and crypto. Um, and so let's say you could pick a good portfolio in any of these three categories, but you have to pick one of those categories.

Maybe we can just go down the line and say, which one are you picking? And if you want to say why. So K, do you want to start? >> Is this is this what I'm investing in or what I'm interested in? >> Set it and forget it portfolio. You don't get to change it for 20 years. >> Yeah, I'd have to say crypto. Should I say why? >> That'd be nice. >> I think the rails for finance and other industries also, including gaming, will be built on crypto rails in the future.

100%. >> Why can you say this legally? >> Uh yeah, definitely. I I mean I would I would probably say AI, but the part of the reasons I think we could have more meaningful turnover because of market dynamics on the crypto side. Like I don't think I'd necessarily want to own an index. I I love Ethereum I guess is like disclaimer, but um I don't know if I'd want to own an index of those things. I don't think there's necessarily the same defensibility on a longer term horizon. Will >> well I I think all all three of those are primed really well to grow exponentially. Um it it's it's really difficult question.

>> Okay, I'll make it harder. You have to short one and long the other. >> Um Oh god. Um any what I will say though is yeah I I think though the the real question is within that like which you know which bets are you making within those categories? I think that's really the more interesting question, right? >> This is a very >> good way to skirt the qu >> it's Yeah. I mean my like right we're all here like I'm obviously a crypto first person but I think AI is going to impact the world. It's a it's a more of a horizontal layer, right?

>> I think that's a fair answer. I noticed nobody said robots, so I'll make an argument. Um crypto and AI are both very scalable software um designed to be scaled. Actually robots are not extremely scalable in the same way and the demand for them is equal if not more than the other two sectors. And so I think there's a compelling argument that assets in the robot class will be scarcer and do better if you assume the same demand. Uh and I think the demand might be bigger.

Uh so supply demand uh I'll say robots for the sake of argument. Um it's a good thing this is called the future of crypto panel. Robots can transact in crypto. That's my bad. Um, well, do one of you guys want to ask one of your questions? >> Yeah, I can. So, I I took a little time before this panel to go back through my Twitter over the past like few months and I was just looking at things that I was talking about and like themes and stuff like that. And one of them that came up was around um gaming. and I took a look at this uh game called Maple Story, which is like a reboot of a very

old game. Uh it's now on Avalanche and I was not um it's been a while since I looked at it and they have onchain they have a currency and it's not like a USD tied currency. It's just like a currency called Nexpace $680 million market cap with $18 million of volume. And this this is the currency for their game. And there are other games out there that have currencies and economics like Runescape. In Runescape, you can even bond your money to earn more money or to like get a discount on your monthly fees and stuff like that.

If Maple Story is doing this and like doing this on Crypto Rails and being really successful, like this is just the tip of the iceberg for an industry that's bigger than the movie industry, the music industry combined, you know? Is this a question? >> No. Here's the question. What is one thing that like surprised you in the past few months about crypto that like people have been talking about for ages and ages and ages and like finally came to be? Okay. Um, yes.

The thing that has surprised me the most about crypto and that I would consider to be one of the most important things to happen in crypto that people are sleeping on is clarity in the fact that market structure is actually happening in the United States. Um I entered the space in 2016 and to me it was inconceivable that we would ever have tokens that could acrue true value, like fundamental value. So, we've pretty much focused everything on like how can we create proxies to value. Um, and I think this is like

if we can pass this one law, then everything we have been working for is worth it. But it's just this one thing that's standing in our way. Um, and so to me, like just the first passing of that was very interesting. >> Um, yeah. No, I I definitely agree there. Um, I feel like there, yeah, there's obviously just been so much progress in the last few months. Um, something that's kind of been surprising for me has been, um, realizing how disconnected Wall Street was from everything we're doing. You're seeing all these Treasury vehicles play out.

Tom Lee gets on CNBC and starts talking about ETH and suddenly everyone gets it. And um, but it's a great thing like the world's waking up. So, it's been a very positive development. What do they get? I Anyways, Wyatt, go. >> My uh my my response is like miles left on the curve of where where you guys are. Um but in all seriousness, I was at this conference last year and they were doing the panel on community growth and someone on stage uh was asked what community has the best growth and he said XRP and I I laughed when he said that which I think most of the room did and he said no I'm serious. And a few months later, Ripple just went on this

heroic one run. Yeah. Where where it was worth more than Salana that the the Salana XRP flipping. Um and that's one of those things I didn't think it was possible before it happened. I I would have said there's no chance this will happen. And I think we can be pretty disparaging to like some of the people who are like your friend who heard about XRP and doesn't know about urine or any of these things. But it speaks to like the reach of the enthusias like people get really excited about this and that can be like a gateway for them into crypto or into the industry and it tells you that that like I I get really disillusioned. I was talking about the downstream buyer like are there people still interested who are will be incrementally and to me like maybe that's not the perfect form factor but

but it speaks to like there is a a a increasing frontier of interest here. I love that nobody said the president launching a memecoin. That was my runner up. Maybe Wyatt, do you have a question for us? >> Yeah. Um, something I like to think about is like what what's the thing that's happening that's really significant right now, maybe even on a small scale that people aren't appreciating the the graitas of. So, it's like in five years, what will we look at and say like that was an important moment um in in the history of what we're doing. So, an example would be five years ago, I don't think people were thinking about Tether much or thinking about Binance peer-to-peer. And

this is like an immense payment system that was being built in the underground of global finance, I would argue. Um, and I think there are things like that where you only recognize how important they are in retrospect. So, I I would ask, what's the thing that you think is underappreciated today, but is is really meaningful and that we'll look back and be like, that that was an important thing. >> Okay. Um, I'll start so that you guys have time to think of a better answer. Uh, one that I've been thinking a lot about recently is, you know, like we're investors in Morpho. They just rolled out Morpho V2 and we're starting to see kind of like the design space open up for RWA lending or

really off-chain lending executed onchain. Um, and this is where, you know, Will, you were talking about your dad trying to raise money on the equity side, but you also mentioned that there's a way to raise money on the debt side, right? And like the world of debt is multiplicative, like it's so many it's so many times larger than, you know, the world of of strictly capital. Um and I think the interesting thing about debt and growth in an economy when you think about what role it plays in the economy is you know settlement and cash an economy can only grow at a linear pace but with debt you can grow at an exponential pace and

that's because you're essentially like rehypothecating and allocating efficiently that capital to the use cases that will accelerate the economy. So to sum it all up, it's like we when we first, you know, started to see DeFi come out and you had Maker Dow release die, it was cool, but then you had this stark realization where you're like, so you're saying I need to put $200 down to get $100? Like I think everybody kind of had that moment where they're just like, it's not as good as I think it is.

Um, and so finally with like kind of the KYC hooks and all of these like all this infrastructure, tomorrow Predicate will be up here talking about what they're working on. Um, like there's a lot of these companies that are coming out of the woodwork that are making use cases that we always dreamt of an actual reality. And to me, that one starts with uh like RWA and off-chain debt coming onchain. Yeah, I I um I think for me I'll sort of discuss something slightly different, but um for me something that's been underappreciated. Well, it's it's been

appreciated, but maybe not to the degree I I think it's really going to change things um has been the rise of prediction markets recently. And the reason why is I I think just through AI and tech and social media, we've never been we've never lived in a time in which you know seeking truth was so opaque and so the the lines get so blurred and the markets are truly the best source of truth out there. You can't find a better source of truth. And the rise of prediction markets are going to really educate people on that point and also enable us to find truth in the future when the lines becoming increasingly blurred.

>> Uh I would say um Wyoming coming out with their own currency. I don't know a lot of details behind it or behind finance of like how states operate to be honest, but if every state had its own currency or like operated its own Fed or could like print its own money, I mean that's going to blow our minds. I think >> I'm also glad none of us had a bearish take there. Uh yeah, I mean also I think there's some other things that are underappreciated like some of the activities in DeFi right now um related to looping definitely underappreciated will have an outsized impact. I don't know if it'll be a positive one. Um will I think we have time for your

question if you have one. >> No I I do. Um so my question is um obviously stable coins are top of mind for everyone right now. Um, I think everyone sees that they're the future, but um, specifically for Wyatt and and you guys, um, just because I know Wyatt focuses a lot of his attention on stable coins. I'm curious how you see it all playing out though. Um, I I think everyone knows it's the future, but um, curious to get your take on how you see it all playing out. >> Like what does the world look like in a stable coin future is kind of the question >> or um, like even recently, right? like ARC launching Tempo and I I I think that's even changed how people view this whole sort of stable coin adoption

playing out now where it's like oh okay maybe actually there's going to be many different L1s is it going to live you know are all stable coins going to live on an L2 is it like um also how how do you think merchants are going to start adopting these things I'll keep it very open-ended and you can plug >> yeah I think in terms of leverage and power dynamics the system will eventually look somewhat similar to the traditional financial system we have now where there will be almost a pyramid structure where there's some type of rollup layer on the top. It's like this is the universal stable coin standard and USDC sits somewhere down here, USDT sits somewhere down here, tempo sits here, base sits here and you have this um tree structure almost

>> pyramid scheme. >> Uh no, not exactly. Um and then I think that the the interesting it it's a little more obvious a lot of enterprises will use stable coins because of the simplicity. I think what will be really interesting will be the impact on on nation states. And I think if you look at the accessibility of dollars combined with the accessibility of skills and resources online, we're going to have this impact where people globally are going to start to be employed more by companies, organizations in the US, in the UK, in Europe because they have the skill set and the leverage to actually impact those businesses from all over the world. Now they'll be paid in stable coins. I think they'll opt into having

US dollars because it's frankly a more stable currency and alternative store of value and I think that will create major structural issues for countries frankly all over the world. Um because when given an alternative store of value I think a lot of people will turn to that and you start to lose control over your domestic monetary system. um future form I I wonder if the US dollar we're exporting the US dollar essentially if that becomes a dominant form of trade and store of value in in a lot of places globally. The alternative is that there's a real push back against that from from regimes globally which I think also will probably happen. It's just about how strong that is. So I think

we're going to see wide adoption which is going to be buoied by the accessibility of resources and skills. >> Corin do you want to go and then I'll wrap up. Are any of those countries like happy that their folks are like using dollars? >> It depends what kind of leadership you have. If you have like a Malay and Argentina, then like much more receptive to it and they'll take the attitude of like we've struggled to set up a stable financial system here over the long term. But I'd say in most cases there there's going to be opposition, but it's hard to stop if you already get to adoption rates that could be at like 10 20 30 40%. You can't just rip stable coins out of people's hands at that point.

So, as a relatively smooth transition, if I do say so myself, um my answer to the question is that I think I share a lot of views with our next speaker on this topic. Um and so our next speaker will be um Seth Pribos. He's a Boston local uh started his company in Boston uh and has spoken at several ETH Boston before. Um, and so before I hand it over to him, I want to give a round of applause for our panelists here.

And I have one last question before we get shoot off stage. Um, single answer. Uh so I we do our summit every year uh in in Switzerland and every year I go up there and and I say you know like this year Salana is on top and then the next year I go up there and I'm like okay well um now Salana is not on top it's Ethereum on top and that's this year right and then the next year I'm pretty certain that when I do this there will be a different answer and so my one question for you is not Salana, not Ethereum. What's on top next year >> and it can't be Bitcoin?

>> It's got to be some stable. I don't know. Let's >> say circle. >> So, arc. >> Yeah, circle. Yeah, broader. >> I actually don't know if I can answer that just given my role. I'll I'll go Monad >> and then you you take tempo corn >> tempo. >> Okay. Thank you everybody.