NN Ep:10 Burning Man: Seeding a Network Nation

Transcript

So today we're exploring one of the most remarkable experiments in community building and governance um of perhaps the past 40 years which is Burning Man. And we will investigate what Birmingmen can teach us about how network can emerge. And so every year several thousands of people gather in the desert of Nevada in order to build a temporary city. And for one week they live by a radically different set of rules in order to create a temporary society which is characterized by specific principle like decommodification and radical self-exression. And at the end

of the week everything disappears without leaving any traces and everyone goes back home. And so even if this event lasts only one week, that experience actually catalyzed a permanent and global community of people which are bound together not by the territory but by shar principles and by this very distinctive way of being in the world together. And so today there is actually hundreds of regional burns on many different continents and there are also like year-long communities that have emerged. And so we can say that the burning man identity has actually transcended the event that happens every year in Nevada. And so how did that

happen? What holds this community together when the members are actually scattered around the globe? And what can this teach us about network nations? And to explore these questions, we have the privilege to be joined today by Erica Blair, who leads engagement and network strategy at Burning Man. And together we will explore the extent to which Burning Man can be regarded as some kind of proto networks and what lesson it can actually bring us for trying to actually establish those new networks on different communities.

Great. Um, so we're now here with uh Erica. Hi Erica. Hi. We're very lucky not to have to do a remote podcast for this session. Um, so to begin with, Erica, um, we would like to understand like um, bring us from the beginning of the story of Berniman. um how did you actually encounter Burning Man and uh what is the thing that actually like drew you towards it? >> Yeah, so Burning Man has existed since 1986. That was the first burn on Baker Beach in San Francisco. Uh I came into the community through being involved in a lot of festivals and wanting to kind of understand what was different about a

burn from other festivals. And so I've been going to Black Rock City, which is the main event in uh Northern Nevada, since uh 2013, and have been involved as a regular burner for most of my career as a burner until uh I came into the organization to help support with some of the initiatives around engagement in the network in 2021. >> And uh yeah, what what is it that like m made you go from just being a barner uh and just enjoying the festival to actually wanting to engage more formally I guess into the organization.

>> To me, Burning Man is a really unique organism. It's unlike anything else that exists on planet Earth in part because of the different way that we approach um kind of how to bring people together. And so to me, there's a really potent magic within Burning Man that I wanted to be part of cultivating. Mhm. Did you feel that uh the organization was like you joining the organization will be like something that will bring you closer to Bman or was it really like a desire of engaging into the more organizational government side of things? For me, it's literally just that I care a lot about Burning Man as a

movement and um feel a bit of a dharmic duty to be engaged in helping make sure that it uh succeeds into the next generation. >> Great. Okay. So if you were to um define specific uh problems or specific gaps that you feel that burning man is responding to either intentionally or unintentionally as a collateral effect of actually making Burning Man. What will those problems or gaps be? So Burning Man started, as I said, in the 80s, but really picked up a lot of steam in the 90s. And you can see that in its cultural DNA in a bit. It really, in

large part, was a response to the issues at that moment in time. um to globalism to consumerism to really thinking about how do we authentically connect in a world that is increasingly being mediated by um you know capitalistic interests and um uh consumerism. And so there was a real sense of a return to authenticity that I think was built into the the ethos of Burning Man from the beginning, which in many ways we're dealing with different challenges in society still at this point, but there's still a thread where we're, you know, Burning Man as a movement is really

standing in contrast to the way that people um are forced to interact in the default world, which is intermediated by commerce, which is um transactional relationships. And so I feel like there's some kind of degree of um playing with models of what society could look like if we put connection, collaboration, and community as our highest priorities rather than um a lot of the profit motives that go along with the the way that society is structured today. And um so I guess you have you have had the chance of being in touch with like the early founders. Um would you like can you describe like the

initial one like the first one like what was the the spark or the intention of making these initial things and then how it then developed as obviously filling up more gaps than initially intended. So, Burning Man started as Larry Harvey and a crew of his friends burning a sculpture of a man on the beach in 1986. And there's a lot of lore and history um kind of mythology around why they burned that man.

>> And the truth is there was no clear why. And so a lot of the elements of the deeper explanation of what burning man means or burning the man means uh is actually something counterfactually made up after the fact. And so there's a bit of a blank canvas for people to project the deeper meaning of why this thing exists um onto. And so even now there's no one meaning of what the man burn means or why we're gathering. It's a bit of a opportunity a platform for people to do free association of what matters for them. Um which is part of why Burning Man holds so much power I think

is that people are able to use it as a canvas to really reflect on the things that matter to them and the things that they want to bring into the world. has a bit of an of a permission granting nature like that for people to explore what is the thing that motivates them to participate versus being circumscribed in a top- down kind of way. >> Mhm. And so if we if we use you as a personal example, what would be like your own personal Yeah. drive, but also like what is it that it is solving for you? To me, the reason why I'm really interested in Burning Man as a vehicle for change is

that I think of it as an agency generation uh machine in a way, which is to say that people come to Burning Man and they start to realize that the world around them is malleable, that they're able to create things that they never thought that they could create, that they're able to be a different person than they ever thought that they were before. And so it creates this kind of flexibility neuroplasticity to imagine yourself creating and doing in a different way in the world. And so there's a degree to which it grants people a new sense of agency to affect the world around them. And in my

opinion, that's part of why I think Burning Man in is so powerful is that we're actually going to the generator function of societal change, which is empowered, agentic individuals who can create the world they want to live in. And so rather than Burning Man having a specific type of change it's trying to create, it's coming a little bit further down in the stack um of ways to affect the world, which is to say it creates the people that create the change. >> Yeah. So it doesn't it doesn't have like a specific direction of this is where we should go, but it's more like meta of like empowering people to go where they want to go.

>> Yeah. And you know it does have a specific direction in that it really encourages people to be creative to live in community to work together to be collaborative. So there are elements that are defining to Burning Man. And yet I find that a lot of people get very passionate about the direction they want the world to go and they assume that's what Burning Man stands for. And just because my role allows me to meet such a broad cross-section of the community, I have come to understand that so many people interpret this energy that they get from Burning Man to mean very different things. Um, some people take it in a direction where they're like, I'm so inspired to go uh do service or

create um an alternate uh way of gifting in my community. other people are really inspired by the artistic expression and want to dedicate themselves to bringing art into the world etc. There's there's a lot of different things that can spark in people because of Burning Man and all of them are something that at least from my point of view I'm a full yes to coming into existence. Um and Burning Man project as the organization is not necessarily circumscribing that this is the the outcome that we want to create.

What we want to create is a culture where people um can be activated and can be connected and can contribute to the thriving of society. Mhm. So would that be correct if I say that perhaps if there is a mission if if there is like one directed mission a burning man is to actually create a community of burners. Um well that's a good question. I would say that that's uh almost a ripple effect versus the the mission. I feel like um the community of burners happens because people come together and

co-create together and we know that collaboration and working together is one of the best ways to gel a community. And so, you know, in a way, I I suppose you could say that that is one of the beautiful outcomes. >> I look at Burning Man as maybe a little bit more agnostic than that. um because I think it's creating the conditions for people to create that themselves. >> Okay. So um let's dig into that because this is obviously a very important topic um that we've been discussing in many of the previous episodes is like the concept of shared identity collective identity. So a lot of people after usually after sometimes some

people say I'm a burner I don't if they have not been to Burning Man but like many people not all of them but many people eventually define themselves like I'm a burner. So what does it mean when someone says I'm a burner? Because obviously Bing man doesn't have this kind of like membership. Are you in or out? So from like a cultural from like a psychological from like an identity perspective, what does it mean when I'm a burner? I'm a barner for instance. You're a barn too. What does that mean? Uh it's that's an interesting one to unpack because it's not a really clear definition and it's something that we spent a lot of time thinking about and trying to dissect because we want to

make sure that the identity that's being created is expansive enough to incorporate and accommodate all the different ways that people engage with Burning Man culture around the world. Many people think of Burning Man as an event in Nevada and that is definitely the flagship in a way. It's the the genesis point for uh the burner culture. And yet for so many people around the world, it's worth saying that's not the way that they engage with Burning Man. There are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who have only been to a Burning Man that is locally um in their community or that has that is taking place outside of the Black Rock

Desert in Nevada. And so there are around 85 official Burning Man events around the world, many more unofficial events. And because of that, it's not easy to say that you're a burner because you've been to the Black Rock City event in Nevada. And so there are so many different ways for people to engage with the concept of Burning Man out in the world. And that's something that we love and encourage that I'm personally incredibly passionate about. Um creating more opportunities for people to do Burning Man where they actually live and not have to undertake the difficulty and the expense of going all the way to this barren desert in northern Nevada just to

participate in the culture. So to come back to your question of what does that mean then about what makes a burner I think when we've dissected it where we have tended to land is that there is some requirement of participatory collaboration in person ideally with other people and it is the the other people which are other burners >> well I think I think maybe people it's possible that people could become burners together Do you need to interact with a burner to become a burner or can you have like a completely separate community that all of them will say, "Oh, I'm a burner."

>> Yeah. I never interacted with existing partner. >> Well, let me just preface all of this with this is not any kind of official position of who a burner is. This is just me exploring this concept with you because it's amorphous. It's not that easy to pin down. I personally would advocate that there is room for people who are collaborating, creating together to associate themselves under the umbrella of creating Burning Man culture out in the world, even if none of them have been to Black Rock City. And so I don't know that you have to have a pre-existing identity of being a Verer to be plugged in. And at the same time, that opens up a lot of questions about

what is the thing that ties us all together in this movement. And we're still figuring that out. That's that's something that we're navigating together as a community. I personally look around and see so many expressions of the creative artistic collaborative participatory ethos out in the world. And my dream is that all of those people feel that they have other people to link arms with and say that we're doing this together because we believe that this is a way of being that matters and that we would like to see more of in the world.

And so I'm I'm just in support of whatever is going to create more opportunities for people to find each other and to work together to create the things that they wish to see in the world. And if they do that and are able to find each other because they're linked in some way to Burning Man, to me that's a win. >> Mhm. Because for instance, like from my experience, um I've met a lot of people in my life after having been to a few Burning Man's um where I actually like I tell them sometimes like you're already a burner. You know, you haven't been to Burning Man yet. you maybe haven't interacted with many burners, but I can you're a burner. Like you should just go

because you're already a burner, you know? So, it's like it's interesting because like there seems to be this kind of like culture or like something the fabric within the texture of this person which has like this is just the same texture. It just happened that they have been they're part of that community. They are not part of the community but the texture is actually the same. And probably if they were to connect they will immediately find this kinship or this like right even though it's like completely separate and and I don't know if those people I can tell them you could be a burner but are they a burner they are like completely separate maybe they never heard about burning man >> what would you describe as that texture >> it's almost impossible to define

>> but once you once you know the texture you can recog recognize the text that's still ahead. >> Well, maybe one of the the things that we could point to is the presence of a bit of a paradigm shift. >> Mhm. >> So, there's the default world paradigm that exists and then there is what happens when you start to imagine that the world could be different. Um, I really like the way that Africa Burn sums it up. They their description of what they do is imagining the world a new and I think there is a bit of that element of people who are able and willing to go there where they're willing to be open to imagining the world a new that creates a bit of a

baseline affinity at the very least if not participation in a similar movement. Although I would say that there is lots of people that are imagining a new world which I will never qualify as me as like I think it's a precondition necessary but not sufficient condition. Um but perhaps like without putting them as prescriptive but perhaps those 10 principles that uh Burning Man has established >> could actually be maybe the best description of what is that texture that you recognize and when you see someone that seems to have at least some degree of those principle maybe you start saying oh this feels like learning man

texture. So just to uh give a little bit of context about what you're talking about, the 10 principles are a a set of guiding principles that were created in 2004. So I've been saying Burning Man started in 1986. That's quite a large gap. That was an 18-year gap between the first burn on the beach in in San Francisco to the creation of the 10 principles, which kind of give a framework for describing what a burning man space is. And so I think a few things to know about those principles.

One, they were descriptive rather than prescriptive. So Larry Harvey wrote them by noticing what behaviors were emerging within the community. And then two, they are specifically notations about what is happening in a Burning Man event space. And so there we we're we're quite careful inside the organization to say that these aren't necessarily the the rules for being of a being a burner because they more describe the quality of the kinds of spaces that we're creating Lumi Creative burn than they are describing the type of person who might burn. Okay. um because because the you know we all might be different kinds

of people in the default world and then we come into a container that has a a particular kind of character. I'll just read out what the 10 principles are for those who are unfamiliar with them so that you can start to get a sense of what it feels like and what kind of activities are happening at a burn. Um, so radical inclusion, which is to say we welcome the stranger and anyone may be a burner, anyone may participate in Burning Man. Gifting. A lot of people think that Burning Man is a barter economy where you trade for things. It's actually a full gift economy where um the the text of describing gifting says that you gift without contemplating a return. It's all about giving of oneself

and not accounting for exactly what will come back to you, which allows you in some ways to trust what will come back to you. Decommodification, one of the most interesting ones, not even a word in English. It will give you a little red squiggly line if you try to type it into a Google doc. Um, it is though in my my personal favorite principle because it's basically saying that it's a space without transaction. um and where we can put down the commercial interest and be on a connective level with one another. radical self-reliance, which is saying that we all rely on our own faculties when we're when we're in a

burning man space and radical self-expression um of being fully self-expressed, communal effort to work together. Civic responsibility, which is paying attention to what is the good of the whole and how we can all be good citizens within the societies that we're building, leaving no trace. um with this is often thought of as kind of our environmental principle. What a lot of people don't know is that leaving no trace is actually um if if you read the text under leaving no trace, it says we endeavor to leave places better than we found them.

>> Um so it's actually proactive and not just reactive to um you know cleaning up what you've what you've made. Uh participation which is the core philosophy in many ways of of a Burning Man space. And then immediiacy which is taking action as it comes and being present in the moment that you're in. >> Mhm. Interesting. So um so those principles uh they emerged after 18 years following observing that the the one event but also many other events were somehow replicating non-intentionally those principles. Um

so can you actually tell us uh basically like from this initial Bing man event that uh started at the beach uh eventually it it kind of like multiplied itself into many different local things. Um so basically what are the various uh components of the Barman network? >> It's a bigger question than it seems. Um a little background those principles as you mentioned were written 18 years later and they were written specifically because of the expansion of the network.

So in 1997 there were a lot of challenges on the playa which is the place where Burning Man is held in Nevada and uh the there was intervention from the government. it. The future of the event was really uncertain and they essentially stationed uh government officials at the gate and collected all the money, all the ticket money. And so Burning Man itself didn't have enough money to uh be able to pay back its debts for all of the things that it took to produce the event in in 1997. And so the original regional burn, as we call it, came out of that moment in time

where somebody needed to do something to keep this thing going. And somebody in Austin, Texas, organized an event as a fundraiser to help sustain >> the the burn in in Nevada. And that spun out into its own regional event. Um, and that now there's many events in Austin, Texas. And then that started to expand also to various places around the country and around the world where people were organizing the burners who lived in the same places as them. And so it started really organically in 1997.

By 2004 a lot of people were asking what how do we describe what makes this thing different than a typical festival? How do we onboard more people into what this thing is? And so there was a lot of demands for some framework to describe what a burn was. And that's where the 10 principles came from. And so they were in a way a gift to the network to have a clear reference point of how to align your event with uh the broader movement of of Burns.

So you know, fast forward now here we are in 2025. We've got this huge extensive network of people who are super committed to creating Burning Man culture where they live and that takes so many different forms. There are regional burns as I said 85 official regional burns, many more unofficial regional burns. Uh I believe there are there's over a hundred places around the world where there are official representatives for burning them. And so there are people organizing the burner and the creative communities in the places where they live. And if you're listening to this, you are likely to have one of those wherever you live. And

so I suggest you look at the Burning Man website which will help you find the the local community in whatever part of the world you happen to be in. And then there are so many different fractals of the Burning Man ecosystem. We often call it a network of networks. In part because if you look just at the Black Rock City event alone, there are theme camps which is what we call all the different camps that come together and bring an offering. There are so many other levels. There are ranger >> camps can also be part of >> Yes, absolutely. There are rangers which are sort of the uh burner safety team where the there are people who walk

around and make sure that everybody is having a great time and add help if needed. Uh that's that's a network inside of the Black Rock City event that also has parallels around different regional events all around the world. There are the people who guard the temple. There are the volunteer networks. There's the Department of Public Works that that creates the city there. There are so many different little pools and networks of people who are really committed to the things that they're doing. And that's just if we look only at Black Rock City. When we start to look around the world, we also see all of the different um Burns have their own version of that too where

they'll have a theme camp network. Um there there's people who are organizing uh service events and service opportunities uh under the title of burners without borders which started in 2005 after hurricane Katrina wiped out almost the whole city of New Orleans and uh burners came straight from the Black Rock City event to help. And that started to spawn a network of people undertaking service and working on uh um creating civic engagement for learn taking the lessons that we learned of constructing a city in the desert and bringing it out into the world. There's people that get together

just because they are um you know interested in finding other burner lawyers or burner academics. Uh there's a huge number of people working on sustainability inside of the Burning Man network that are prototyping different sustainability solutions when they come together in the desert and elsewhere. And so the these are just to name a few of the different permutations of what the network looks like and how people group together. Mhm. >> And so across all of this, right, there's there is some sense that we're all participating in the same thing, even if there isn't necessarily a formal organization managing all of those different pieces, >> right? So everything emerged relatively

organically. But then it seems to me that there has also been a more formal slash intentional endeavor to recognize some of those things that were all organically emerging as official, some of those things less official. >> Um, so what was this intention about? And uh and and what does it mean that you're official as opposed to nonofficial? >> Yeah. So I think you're you're referencing mostly the events which there is an official designation as of this moment. We're always looking at what's the best way to handle this and um open to evolution over time. And you know, you have to look at it from a

bird's eye view, which is to say that you know, Burning Man as a name is something that we know has a bit of cache in some circles, right? It it is there is something sexy about taking that name and putting it on an event that can get you more attention and more people. And so one of the things that we're always thinking about is how to safeguard the the meaning of a burn event and especially when it comes to commodification and commercialization because the the last thing that we want to have happen is for people to exploit

this rich network of people who give out of the their own desires to create in collaborative community. And uh because so much of what happens at at Burningman is volunteers pouring their time and energy and resources into co-creating something that they think matters. And so there is a risk if you know people are able to use this term Burning Man that there is uh a possibility of exploiting that kind of goodwill and gifting and um and the volunteer networks etc for personal gain, personal profit. And so there that's kind of the impulse from which a lot of the the

thinking about creating a more officially recognized system came because Burning Man project needed to figure out who can use the name Burning Man and represent the thing that they're doing as being part of Burning Man. And so that's created the system by which there are several types of criteria of coherence with the Burning Man ethos and the Burning Man way of practice. And the 10 principles are one major piece of that of saying that you know you really need to have these principles active in your event including welcoming strangers. It's not just about

commodification or decommodification, right? like it's also about being open to anyone. That's one of the main principles as well. Um and it goes on from there where you look at different ways that that the environment needs to be structured um to be identifiably Burning Man. And we're always playing with this too because one of the challenges as Burning Man has expanded is that it's now operating in so many different cultural contexts. And I think there is an effort from the Burningham project side to make sure that it is not only one way of being and thinking that is the American way that um needs to be

replicated. And so we're always trying to find that balance and thread the needle between the essence of Burning Man having a certain kind of meaning while also being interpreted for the local context that makes sense and trying to find the right balance. there is not really a one-sizefits-all >> kind of uh solution but it's a huge area of exploration and undertaking for the the people who work on the global network. So in some way you will you will say you will agree if I say that um the 10 principle emerge as a descriptive set of principle but eventually they also become prescriptive in terms of

recognizing official events. >> It's certainly a piece of what what the officializing committee looks for. Mhm. >> And by the way, that that that group is actually representatives from people all around the network and the regional burns. That's not held in a super top down way by burning them project. It's a co-created participatory committee of community members. >> The existing events representative that decides >> some of them now.

>> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Amazing. So now that we have like a general understanding of the network um so let's find uh go into the question of like belonging >> um like and as a continuation of the sharency but really like this question of kinship >> um because even to the barers they meet at specific events or specific settings there seems to be something more that emerge which is if I meet If I walk around and I meet someone that I'm a partner, it's like ah I see you and all of a sudden like I feel kinship because because I know that we have a little bit

of that texture together right just like when I meet a French person when I'm on the other side of the world it's like ah >> I see you I recognize this cultural affinity right >> so all those 10 principles and and beyond um do you think that those are actually mechanism that uh also per se contribute to the building of this texture and therefore the creation of a sense of belonging because we all recognize each other as abiding by those similar principles.

I would hesitate to put it in that that light only because I think we don't necessarily operate with exactly the same principles when we're outside of a burn space. We live in a world with commodification. like it is virtually impossible to have a decommodified space in the default world um because of the fact that we just operate inside the world that we do. And so that that alone gives me pause to say we have to be operating by a certain set of principles like um to be able to recognize someone as a burner. Um I I feel like it is much more organic than that. which is to say

people are attracted to Burning Men because they have some kind of resonance with the ethos and philosophy. And my guess is that when you feel connected to somebody else who is a burner, it's not because they're pulling out their pocket list of 10 principles, it's much more that they're just living a life and um that is in alignment in some way with the general ethos of this kind of new paradigm of doing. >> Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, I think I've met a lot of people that have been to Burning Man, uh, but I don't think we're driven by similar thing and I don't feel that texture. Like I don't feel the same. So it's not enough to be at the

barn to acquire this kind of texture. But my my question was also uh about like whether the the gifting the demo the the de the commodification the radical expression all those things as a practice during those events is something that actually during that period contribute to building some degree of belonging that perhaps when you meet people in the external world um there is less surface to belong. because we don't have those practices.

>> Yeah, I I would say that's absolutely true. That's part of why I love decommodification so much, which is as a principle because in my mind, at least this is just my interpretation. I think there is a degree to which when you remove the feeling or possibility of transactionality, you create a much more uh open set of people. So, uh, in the default world, if somebody's coming up to you, we have to be on guard in a way because we have to first make sure they're not trying to get something from us.

>> Yeah. There's a transactionality at this substrate. >> Yes. Exactly. And so removing that where if somebody's coming up to you, they're, you know, very most likely trying to give you something versus take something from you. And so that creates a condition of openness to others and to to strangers that from my pers perspective allows people to be in a much more um receptive mode and also a much more connective mode.

>> And so that's just one example. And I think you could make a a an argument for almost all the principles about the ways that they create a fabric that is perhaps more inviting and stronger >> when it comes to the building a field of connection between people than if we didn't have that kind of activity happening in Buringman spacesh. >> Yeah. Um and then what about uh those rituals that are actually like really explicit rituals like the burning of the man uh the temple, the burning of the temple mostly burning art and so forth.

So all those rituals um you know it's like it's very tribal in some way. Um do you feel like well were they intended as this kind of ritualistic thing to create a tribes and if they are not intended uh do you feel that they do actually today as a as a consequence play the role of actually like you know like we all convene around the men then we look down like just like in many tribes you got those point of of convening that actually really reinforce the the the social fabric.

>> Yeah. Well, I can one the one thing I can say is that that was not created with that explicit intention from the start. Um >> really um because the entire fact that there is a city and there is a week weekl long gathering was not intended from the start. It started with just the burning of the man. >> Yeah. >> And that itself was the point. Um, and without that having a specific meaning.

And so, you know, now that that happens on the backdrop of this whole society and temporary city, we can start to see how powerful it is for convening that city together and creating a focal point and creating a ritual. And it originally was just that ritual was the point. And and it actually came from the other direction. the city and the society and all of that happened because the ritual was happening. >> Um, and so, you know, that's with the man specifically. The temple came about much later. I I need to double check, but I think it was around the year 2000 when uh, you know, people wanted to

honor uh, a major loss that had happened. And so they built a temple for grieving and that temple now ever since then has burned on Sunday after the man burns on the Saturday night. So there there is this big explosive uh celebratory party energy on Saturday night watching the man burn and then that really comes home to ground on Sunday with a bit more of a somber and silent and reflective burn of the temple where people are really letting go of grief of anything that they want to release into the fire. And so, you know, that itself has been an added ritual

now, which I think is really important because, you know, we look at Burning Men and many people who are looking at the Black Rock City event from the outside will see the fig, the flashy, the the the art, the the man, and forget that that it's actually a full spectrum experience that involves all the emotions that a human can feel. And one of the things that comes up in that pressure cooker of a container is anything that needs to be processed around loss, around grief, around letting go. Um, and so the temple really does serve as a release valve for all of that. And so I do think that that lends a a safety to acknowledging that those

feelings are present and that when you come into a container like a burn with you you can come with your whole self. You don't need to be just uh in a state of ecstasy the whole time to be burning. And in fact, recognizing the complexity of the human experience in and doing it all in a compressed timeline for me is actually a huge part of the point. >> Yeah. Amazing. Um and so yeah, so as part of like all those things that emerge as rituals and uh and somehow affect the sentiment of the community around it. Um I think there is something

that uh I but I think many people are noticing which is uh biman is becoming very popular and uh many people wants to go because it's cool because Instagram because networking like party whatever um so there is this question around scaling uh which somehow also incure the risk of dilution, diluting the texture. Um, and of course the ritual is also there to on board because you also want always new people to be assimilated or you know you need to join the Burning

Man B. Um but as you scale and as like new people come uh do you notice over the years that there is some uh cultural delusion or perhaps instead that there is like different cultures that are coexisting with Bingman some of them which are more burners and some of them less or is it just different cultures but equally burners you know what I mean? >> It's a tricky question. It's it it's a tricky question. Um I I won't deny that of course there are people that come to take more than they come to give and I would say that there

is a degree to which that itself is being quote unquote less burner. That being said, I personally try not to stand too much in judgment and the way that people come into and play on this canvas because I think there's such an opportunity for everybody to interpret Burning Man in the way that me that creates meaning for them. And I don't feel that I can be the judge of what is appropriately burning in a a lot of ways because of the fact that what might excite somebody else might not excite me. And thus I

want to be um supportive of the various ways that people come into this ecosystem and find their path to contribution and co-creation as long as that's what they're doing, right? and and you know uh there's I would look at it almost from a bigger standpoint than Black Rock City because that's where most people go with this line of thinking is like okay is Burning Man over? Is is it only full of people who aren't cool anymore? Has it been ruined?

Um it hasn't. That's the secret. Um but but we really have to look at it from the global perspective which is the angle that I typically come from and think about more how does the essence of Burning Man survive and become conveyed in a place where it might be so foreign to the culture that it's happening. Um, and and so like I think there's an really interesting set of questions around cultural dilution that become much more important in a way as we look at where Burning Man pops up around the world and

the context that it's coming into being that might, you know, might require that it look quite different than the American, you know, version of total abundance and >> explosions and all that, right? That that are that come along with the Black Rock City event. And so that is really the question that I'm more interested in answering is like what do we what do we really think we have to be preservationist about as Burning Man multiplies around the world that maintains that core of the essence of Burning Man for people who may not have experienced anything even remotely like

this before. Yeah. So this leads us to the spicy section. >> Um so we we talk a lot about Burning Man and as you know um I am a strong proponent of using the network national lens to look at Burning Man. uh but because I think Bimman is a great example of something that has some proto network features but also because perhaps the network nation um framework could also support some directionality into the future revolution of Burning Man.

>> Um so in your view and you are by now a very expert of the network nation framework. Um, do you see Burning Man as a proto network nation? Because of course we have there's no existing network nation yet, but do you see Burning Man potentially going in this direction? And and if if yes, uh, what is missing? And if not, why not? >> I think that Burning Man is a network nation. You say there's no network nations. I think I think it is because of the fact that it is clearly. It is uh many many nodes existing around the world with some kind of uniting core and

I you know I know the word nation can be quite controversial. The reason I think it works for this particular use case is that I think there is a degree of kinship and affinity and that's where Burning Man is super strong in the network nations model. Um people network around the world with a united sense of identity and kinship. Um that that is in many ways already the case at Burning Man and in the Burning Man network. And so on that basis alone, I would use the the network nations framework to clearly describe it. I think where it starts to diverge from from what I understand

about the network nations model is in the area of functional sovereignty which is to say I don't know that Burning Man itself or as a movement needs to operate outside of the jurisdiction of other sovereign powers to >> Can I just I I just want to make sure like uh so with functional sovereign as opposed to territorial sovereignty. It's not about operating outside. >> Yeah.

>> It's operating alongside. >> Uh but but that does require an aspiration for sovereignty where sovereignty is not it's not because I'm sovereign that I need to be completely out of existing territorial nation state sovereignty. But it means that there is an aspiration of managing your own affair without external intervention. Even though as long as you're on the territory, you're still subject to the to the sovereignty of the territory. So it's different from exiting. Yeah. The So just just >> Yeah. And and I in that definition I do think that you know at the end of the day most people doing things want to be left alone to do the things that they're doing. Mhm.

>> And I think we have proven over time that we are willing to play with the powers that be to make things happen. And so, uh, Burning Man, you know, works very directly with the territorial sovereigns, uh, of whatever jurisdiction a burn is happening in to make sure that the event can happen with all of the legal permits, all of the, um, safety plans, and all of that. So, you know, there's there is a degree of being very willing to play with with the powers that be that I think might be slightly different in character than some of the definitions I've seen of network nations

outside of this example. But other than that, honestly, I I found the Network Nations model to be um a beautiful reflection tool for me in this seat that I'm sitting in of attempting to think about what is the future, you know, of network stewardship inside of the Burning Man ecosystem. I find it quite helpful to think about how we can create more autonomy, more affinity and benevolent as benevolent of of network stewardship as we possibly can because Burning Man projects is in this very interesting and slightly awkward position of being the centralizing force

in a very distributed if not decentralized network. And so, you know, I think figuring out how to play that role with the lightest possible touch and the and yet not reneging on responsibilities that only a network steward could carry out. That's been a really helpful framework for me and uh for our organization to use as a reflection uh opportunity of how can we in this position show up best in service which is ultimately what we're always trying to do.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the reason the reason I was saying like proto as opposed to network but I agree if you really focus on the network nation concept I think it's is very perhaps the best uh example we have um but it's really like those aspiration right so a nation generally has this aspiration of like self-governance self-determination functional soy and so forth so um the barman network there's is the Bman organization. So there is like there's a lot of polyentricity. Um but is there an aspiration either from the organization or from the network of like engaging

into collective self-governance mutualization of resources like really like creating a governance infrastructure that is not just a network of collaboration but actually mesh entanglement right like mesh things together so that it's actually more of a unit I I'm not going to say the word political but an actual unit as opposed to just a network of nodes that at any point can go in and out. >> I think that would depend on who you ask. Um I I have heard strong opinions in both directions. At the end of the day, for the most part, besides, you know, adherence with some degree of of

like coherence with the 10 principles and a few other elements that go along with official events such as needing to be 18, uh under 18 is allowed. And there's a few other things like that. You need to have insurance, etc. So that is kind of the main place where we at the moment have some kind of like um regulation or or rules about what what people need to do. But for beyond that for the most part you know Burningman is completely autonomous nodes. You know the re Burningman project does not have a franchise model.

It does not take money from regional burns. It does not license its name. Um, >> it does license the name. >> Well, it does not license its name for money. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just allow the its free use um for official nodes in the network. And so, you know, there's a degree to which we've really optimized our system to be what we call a permission engine, which is to say that we at Burning Man Project want as many people in the world to create Burning Man as possible. And we don't try to say that we are the gatekeepers of Burning

Man like activities or Burning Man culture. Quite the opposite. The more of that that exists in the world, the better, the stronger our movement gets. We are uh a bit more sparing with who can rep represent themselves is throwing a specifically Burning Man event. um in part because of the challenges that I noted before but ultimately like there is not a ton of oversight that comes from Burning Man project and that's intentional because the purpose is to see the culture proliferate in the world that's you know that's the mission of Burning Man project is to facilitate and extend the Burning Man culture into the

world and so that means that in many ways we have not wanted to get involved in governing many of the the decisions that have to happen across the network and nor would we try to engineer a system where everything has to go through a centralized governance body um unnecessarily. Then there is the question of those decisions that are made that do affect the whole network. There's not that many of them but they they do happen. who who should be in charge of that. Um up until this point we mostly worked on doing really deep stakeholder engagement

processes. So for instance in um uh just before the pandemic I think it was around 2017 to 19 there was this huge initiative called cultural direction setting where they wanted to figure out how do we rewrite the rules for placement and theme camps inside of Black Rock City to make sure that you know we're moving in a direction that we think is coherent with Burning Man culture. and they worked with people from all across the Burning Man community in a really intensive process for two years to rewrite all of the different um pieces of the policies around how theme camps can operate, how

placement um might might um cooperate with them, etc. And so, you know, there has been a degree of really wanting to involve community members in decision-m throughout all major changes at Burning Man. I think you know that that then creates this circumstance where you know sometimes we might be perceived as a bit slow in making decisions and that that has to do with the fact that we tend to optimize for being quite considerate of um of who might be impacted. Um and so you know there is some degree of a governance system with community members

happening right now and the question is always what's the next evolution and as the movement changes as um you know this this organization comes into its well fourth decade of existence you know everything is always malleable. It's Burning Men. We burn it all down and rebuild it every year anyway. Um that's kind of our ethos and so I think we're always exploring what might make sense in the future. >> Yeah. Okay. Um last question. Um as like your own experience but also your knowledge of the experience of Burning Man which has run for more than 35 years now. um what would be like one big

lesson that you've learned uh and that you think will be useful for many other of those proto or network nation out there. So I think that the one of the main lessons that I take from Burning Man generally is the power of intrinsic motivation. >> Yeah. So this is something that I see especially I know you you have uh deep expertise in the blockchain world. One of the things that I see as a challenge that I comes up across a lot of people designing systems is that they put extrinsic motivators front and center

>> and they imagine that people will be incentivized to participate based on financial rewards. Um, and I think Burning Man to me is one of the greatest examples about the fact the the what I believe to be a a fact, which is that humans are much more strongly motivated by creative contribution and communities than they are necessarily by extrinsic financial motivators. And so in when it comes to long-term happiness and and the ability for um people to be really invested in a movement, >> we need to focus on where does the

intrinsic motivation lie and how do we cultivate that? Whereas I see a lot of communities imagining that people will be will will be willing to participate if they see financial gain for themselves. And in my opinion that is antithetical with true community. Um and and it also shuts down a lot of the collaborative creative impulse in us as humans just on a psychology level. And so I think there is an opportunity for anybody building any movement to ask themselves where are people gaining intrinsic benefits? How do we motivate them? By offering them deeper soul level rewards for participation and optimizing

less for financial transactional benefit. >> Yeah. Basically, it's like are you building a company >> is mostly extrinsic motivation or are you building a nation which is essentially intrinsic motivation. >> Amazing. Um thank you Erica that was great. Um, if you want to learn more about Bingman, where do you go? >> Burningman.org. >> Exceptional. And uh, and if you want to learn more about Network Nations, you go to networknations.network and then you get all the information necessary.

Thank you everyone. >> Thank you. That's out.