NEUTRON MAINNET with Spaydh

Transcript

We're live. My guest today is Spade. He is the c he's a core contributor at Neutron. Today we're going to be talking about Neutron's airdrops, Neutron's tokconomics model, their governance model, and also interchain security. I'm also dying to find out why he thinks not everything needs to be a Cosmos SDK app chain. Before we get started, make sure to hit the like button, hit notification bell, and subscribe to get notified when I go live every week. And remember that none of what we discuss here on the interop is investment advice. And if you enjoy this content, please consider sticking with us. We're validating on FOS Quicksilver Osmosis Juno and more chains to come. Just look for the interop in the validator set. And I hope

you book your flights for Paris this summer because Nebula Summit is happening on July 24th and 25th. In fact, we've added a third day on July 23rd, which will be Nebular Hack Day. It's going to be a full day of technical workshops. Nebula Summit is the Interchain Builders Conference. It's where interchain builders come together to talk about the latest and greatest tech in the cosmos and the interchain. No suits, no panels, all tech talks and workshops. And that's the way we like it. The second batch, actually early, second batch of early bird tickets are sold out, but you can still get tickets at neighborly.builders. You can certainly register for Nebula hack day as well there. My guest Spade is coming up next right here on the inter.

[Music] Hey, how's it going, man? Hey, sir. doing pretty good actually. Thanks for having me again, I believe. Actually um yeah, that's right. You you were back on you were on like back in I guess like more than a year ago uh with the PTP team when you guys had just did the proposal and this was like before Never version one. So, it's been a long time indeed actually. Yeah, time flies. Yeah. And um yeah, this is quite exciting since Neutron went live uh a few weeks ago and I believe now everyone's super excited about their airdrops and uh and uh all you know get

getting their their Neutron tokens. I claimed mine earlier today. I should also disclose to our listeners that I am a minority angel investor in Neutron. I'd like to get those out of the way before we have any conversations like this. But um yeah, you know, let's I'd like to describe a little bit of the process of this whole like ICS onboarding process because you guys are the first chain to uh leverage interchain security and you know I think that probably there were a lot of lessons and learnings through that process that other chains that will be onboarded to interchain security uh will be sort of happy to know or or or benefit from. So yeah, can you describe

that process and um how how did it go or did it go smoothly? Were there any hiccups? Yeah, I mean there were sure surely like hiccups, right? But I mean we we kind of signed up for it um when we um decided, you know, participate in Prop 72 knowing that we would most likely be like the first chain to ever do this in production. Um so I I think first I'll I'll I'll give a brief um description of like what the process is supposed to be like, right? So for a chain to be launched on on the Cosmos hub on replicated security, it needs to have um first like the techn like the part of the code that makes it possible and two it needs to have the approval of the Cosmos hub. And so um roughly speaking, you have a proposal on the Cosmos hub.

That proposal is a specific type. It contains specific information that tells the the the crosschain validation module on the provider chain. of the Cosmos hub and the consumer chain or partner chain eg neutron um you know what what the the validators are what the chain ID is going to be all of all all all of this like technical parameters that make it possible and when the proposal is accepted um the what happens is that on the Cosmos hub there's a light client that's created and it creates the CCV state eg um it's the it's like a part of the blockchain's initial state that you need to have in the genesis file in order for the chain to know sort of like what's this the the the initial stage for the first block so

that it's able to start validating blocks and then get connected to to the hub over IBC and so the the main thing that like that that process um has been sort of involved because um a lot of the like a lot of the processes around how to do this properly how to you know um like make the governance proposals how to um participate in the test nets, how to rehearse, what were the the the communications template for a lot of these stuff, what information needed to provide uh like was needed to be provided. All of these things were sort of like ironed out throughout the process, not just by our team, but all of the the teams that were involved like everyone who worked on the Cosmos hub, all of the validators, EA, Informal, and and and and others. And so like they've

come a long long way since sort of like the the start of this process. And I I do believe that like having Neutron sort of like crash test this whole thing in production um will will have helped tremendously like the next change to actually have a much smoother experience. In our case, we had like one major um sort of like um complication which was that validators like in general don't want to use the same key for running multiple chains um for the sake of you know isolating risk, right? Um and so there's a function in IC that allows uh the validators of the Cosmos hub to assign a new key for their consumer chain node.

Um, normally that that that needs to happen before the end of the proposal because you know the the state the genesis state that we mentioned just before it needs to have this information. The new key needs to be in that file and that file is created when the proposal passes and the light client is created. It's not updated afterwards. But on on the hub when neutron launched actually there was um a bit a bit of a complexity where um an edge case that hadn't unfortunately been covered during test nets was discovered and so some folks were having troubles um assign keys with multi-igs or with ledgers right and so a large number of validators weren't able to assign a key and that meant that some of the voting power was ineligible to start validating neutron at first and we needed to spin up neutron without them um and then

connect it to the hub so that the hub could let them know about the new key that had been assigned after that that the genesis state. So that was a bit of a um something that like you know that was a bit of a challenge. Uh we spent a lot of of of time with the validators like launching Neutron um because first we needed to get to that threshold but some of the voting power was unavailable and then we wanted to have some margin of error so that when the updates come in even if we you know the validator needs to switch to their new new key and therefore don't contribute to the voting power for a second. um we wouldn't halt um right so we were trying to avoid a scenario where the chain would start and then halt and then start and then halt

multiple times because that would have been very annoying to absolutely everybody although it was like no nothing would have broken in determin like like critically but it would just not have been very very clean. So that that took a bit of time but but with the participation of like a bunch of validators um that that and and the various teams like that everybody has been like tremendously supportive in this regard. We were able to you know get that margin of error get the updates uh running and then you know since then since the 11th of May neutron has been like running pretty smoothly um and is stable interesting secured and everything and um you know that bug was addressed so no consumer chain ever will ever have that problem. Now there's much better docs. All of the the Cosmos validators are aware of what they need

to do and when they need to do it as well. And so I expect that the next ones will be um like much smoother with perhaps one caveat which is that Stride is doing something pretty incredible by migrating an existing chain to um IC. And so that's sort of like the other scenarios they they will be the first to do that other scenario. And so they may encounter some complications there um that that will help in any case like consumer chains do that in the future though. Um so I think with these two chains coming live we'll have a pretty good sort of like test of how ICS works and how we can improve it. Um yeah that that's super cool. I mean I I didn't realize that uh that this process was was so complex. Um with you

mentioned uh Stride will be uh will be onboarding ICS. uh is that process any any different? And I guess the question there is all of the validators that are that are there that are already validating on Stride that have like a vested interest in that chain and everything that aren't necessarily Cosmos hub validators. Are they being left in the dark here or sort of excluded from validate? Yeah. So I I think migrating to IC is basically two main sort of tricky points. The first one is if your chain like strides is already connected via IBC to a whole bunch of other chains then you need the mechanism to basically transition these channels um so that

that they continue function afterwards or you need to recreate all of these connections like unwind them and recreate them. Um and so like I that that's a significant part of the work. The other part is you know the existing validator set. What do you do with the with your current validators? Um one option is to just like tell them well thank you for your work. you're now out of a job and we don't need validators anymore. I think for Stride what they're doing is that they're going a slightly different route where the existing validator set will become governors where they'll receive they'll have like a delegation mechanism for um for governance. Um and so the the and and and a few other functions that validators will perform and get paid for and then the Cosmos hub validator will will focus on just like block production

basically validating the blocks. Okay. So, so essentially separating uh block production and and governance is is that yeah separating block production and governance plus a few sort of like application specific functions that that exist in the stride blockchain. Okay, that's interesting. I mean that's a I mean that's a new concept to me this idea of of separating block production and governance. Maybe we can talk about this a little bit later when when we talk about governance because I I think it's a case on as well. Yeah, it is the case on. Okay, interesting.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's even more separated on Neutron because like in Stride's case, um I believe and I'm not a contributor to that repo, so I have no idea, but I assume that they're using something like the uh the democracy module or or something like this, which essentially um has a de delegation mechanism similar to the staking module except in this case like the tokens are used for voting power and so you essentially have validators um or even other entities basically um acting as governors or like representatives they can vote on your behalf of or if you want to vote directly then you can do that still um and yeah so so it's still handled at the cosmosk level in neutron's case it's actually completely move to another layer to the cosmos

small contracting layer actually so we have you know like a third implementation of how governance can work in in in in cosmos great I realize I I haven't added cosmos to my list of topics here we're going to have to cover that as So in um we've talked about ICS here on on the show before and when when I last looked at it there were like different versions of ICS. So there was like perfect replicated security and then you could kind of depart from that and like version two and version three and then like atom the atom 2.0 paper or sorry the atom one paper had and Jay had like a different vision for you know how um interchain security would work and can

can you describe in in the current um state of things what are the different versions of interchain security and which one is neutron implementing currently yeah so basically like to to do the whole picture basically like there's um shared security is the idea that you can share security within like between blockchains So replicated security is an implementation within that family of solutions. There's another one in Cosmos which is mesh security which is more focused on the delegators as the um unit of like the fundamental unit whereas replicated security considers the validators as as the core unit right the current implementation which is sort of like replicated security v1 is um essentially the entire set of one

blockchain becomes the set of another blockchains and all of the state. So you have, you know, pretty high infrastructure cost because you need to run an additional node for all of the validators, but you also have the entire economic security of the Cosmos hub. Um, and you don't really have um you don't necessarily have like compromises on there, right? Like as you just get the same set and the same stake. Um, now there are a few sort of like things that need to be ironed out currently and which will be ironed out over the next um sort of like months. Um the first one is um in neutron's case and in other consumer chains that are launching I believe um there is a mechanism which is called the soft opt out the idea here is that recognizing the cost of

infrastructure um for smaller validators particularly it made sense to allow some of them to have more breathing room by basically giving them the choice of um you know running a node or not without being sanctioned if they don't run a node in order to make sure that you know the financial pressure doesn't drive operation into like the rest basically. Um that feature isn't really thought of as some something that's like permanent. Uh it's more like hey while replicated security matures we're going to help you have an easier time basically before you know revenue kicks in and before um the sort of like next versions of IC are are there. The second thing that's will that will most likely change in the short term is um there was an update to how

slashing is handled in the in in replicated security. um a few months before um neutrons launched um the update basically changed one thing like when a validator um so you know the validators are shared between the two blockchains. If a validator misbehaves, eg for example, if a validator double signs on a consumer chain, what happens? Well, the the the consensus engine of the consumer chain like sees the double sign, makes a proof that they misbehaved, but the stake is on the Cosmos hub. So, they can't slash it locally, right? So, instead, what the what the consensus engine does is that it it takes the proof and it sends it to the Cosmos hub. Um, initially that triggered the slashing automatically.

But that has a risk for the Cosmos Hub, which is that imagine if there's um like imagine we're evil, right? Like everyone who worked on Neutron is absolutely evil and all of this was a plan to um to destroy the Cosmos hub. And so the way we did it is that as soon as we launch, we make we forced the Neutron consensus engine to like slash um every validator or to slash all of the validators that we don't like, for example. Um well what the the like the the critical scenario there would be that you could end up with a drastic change in voting power and also tremendous economic loss loss as well and so to ensure Adam side so so Adam Cosmos hop validators would be affected here.

Yeah because they would be slashed um they would be slashed for good reasons. Yeah. So like it would be basically like a malicious consumer chain could have exploited this mechanism to do damage to the hub. Right. I I think this was one of the concerns that Jay had in and he was voicing in his paper. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Um and so so basically to address this um there's two solutions. The first one is the short-term solution that was uh that is currently implemented which is that um instead of automatically triggering the slashing once we receive the message from the consumer chain, the hub first checks with governance uh whether or not they they should be slashed. Eg. If a validator double assigns on neutron

today, they're not instantly slashed. Um for before they're slashed, we need to make a proposal which is an equivocation proposal on the Cosmos hub to you know show proof and say like look like this guy clearly either neglected their their validating job or they were malicious and tried to destroy the chain. They should be punished and then governance can review the evidence and and actually um confirm the slashing basically. Now that's not ideal as a system because it's you know pretty high maintenance sort of things like you don't want to be um like there's a reason why in proof ofstake in general we we're not asking um governance to actually review every slashing or every jailing um and so eventually we should move away from this

and so that leads us to like the next iteration of replicated security um still the same setup full set on both sides but this time we have what we call the um untrusted consumer chain protocol which is Um, basically the hub now has this ability to check the proof that the consumer chain sends to know whether or not the validator should actually be slashed. So if the consumer chain sends a valid proof that shows that the validator actually double signed um then they get slashed automatically. There's no need to ask governance because we can verify cryptographically that the the they misbehaved or if the consumer chain is malicious and trying to attack the Cosmos hub. Then the Cosmos hub can verify that proof, see that it's not valid and just reject that and ignore it completely. so that the the the

validator set is protected. The slashing mechanism is in place so the consumer chains can have a high degree of security that you know the validators are going to continue behaving honestly. Um so that's sort of like the next upgrade. Now the more involved versions include um you know eventually like work on mesh security like solutions for for IC. Uh but they also include the opt-in mechanism which is um currently we have the full set being um you know used on both the hub and the consumer chain. Perhaps we can create a a mechanism that allows only parts of the set to to validate the consumer chain. That would have a lower degree of economic security. Um and it does have one thing that needs to be solved for this to work

which is the subset problem. Eg you know if you let people completely decide like the validators freely decide uh which chain to validate you could have a situation where let's say we launch chain zed and um and let's say um coinbased custody decides to validate and then the only other validators that decide to validate are like the the bottom five validators who have like less than than a percent voting power. In that case, you would end up with the consumer chain having literally like like most of the voting power by far being controlled by one validator which would be able to hold the chain sensor blocks um that that kind of stuff and the other validators wouldn't have enough voting power to prevent this. So we need to have mechanisms to to ensure

that the sets that are constructed via optin security are um sound basically that they're distributed enough. But so this is something that Informal as far as I know is working actively on for the next version of of replicated security. And the benefit of that is that it has much less infrastructure cost and it still has a pretty strong value ad for chains that don't necessarily value the economic security itself much but still want to have that close alignment with with the Cosmos hub basically. So, so early earlier uh in the intro I uh mentioned your hot take which is that you you don't think that every chain needs to be a Cosmos SDK chain. You had another one which uh which I'll mention here which was that you think that IC

should only be about 20 chains or so. I've heard other people say that as well and I think the argument for that is that um at some point it just becomes a pretty technically like it's it's a huge burden on the infrastructure providers to have more than that amount of chains. Maybe there's other uh considerations here but yeah do you want to address those two uh somewhat spicy hot takes? Yeah, for sure. I mean so I for for like starting with replicated security first like I just like my point is two things. The first one is um from the infrastructure perspective and the economic model of IC currently like it it it it will not work like validators will not accept in the current setup to

validate 20 more chains um without you know having much stronger economic guarantees that that that their cost is going to be compensated. Right? for this to work, for IC to be able to secure hundreds or thousands of chains like we sometimes hear, um not only would we need to change the tech um a bit, but we also need to change the way that we think about ICS. Eg. Currently, IC is thought of as sort of a mix between a a service agreement with between the hub and the consumer chain. Um and sort of also an investment in the consumer chain, eg we will like the hub shares in the upside of that consumer chains. Now, if you want to scale it to like hundreds of or thousands of projects, um the validators will demand that their costs

are covered from day one basically because otherwise they would this just doesn't work for them. Um and so that changes the agreement drastically from the consumer chains perspective as well as from the hubs perspective into being purely an agreement for services, right? And that that might actually be valuable and I know that some projects are working on something like this, right? But the thing is like currently there's a lot more upside than the hub can get by having sure a more reduced set but having a set where one it actually um thoroughly vets the projects that it launches and two it has um you know like very deep partnerships with sort of like very close connections and and and and those consumer chain are selected um part like in parts because they add

value to atom like very directly right um in the case of neutron for example we're providing like an execution environment for for the hub. We're bringing smart contracts to the hub basically. Um that's valuable for for two things because of what you can build on it. Uh but also and and you know and because it brings like DeFi and gets the hub like revenue from that. Um but also because it scales IC egs of applications or thousands in this case um launching on the hub security have that close alignment with the hub without actually creating any sort of infrastructure cost for the validator set. So basically we're vertically scaling um replicated security itself.

So that in my in my opinion that's a pretty um strong value ad. Now there's other types of projects that the hub could benefit from. And I think for me the the best move here is to um you know have a very constructed approach at what do we need for the minimal security provider hub to u succeed and become you know like like continue to be like such a large chain cosmos but but but but climb the ranks in the industry as a whole basically become this sort of like beacon sheep like a like mother ship that drives the the industry as a whole.

Um and so yeah I think that would be my take. So there's a political argument and and an economical/technological one. Now in terms of like why I don't think everything should be a Cosmos CDK app chain. It's because um blasphemy. I know right. I didn't say I didn't say not everything needs to be in Cosmos. I just said that not everything needs to be its own app chain. Um which which is fairly different to be honest. Like basically the point here is that um like the the revolutionary idea of of of Cosmos, right, is the abstaining thesis like the idea that if you own your own stack, you're able to customize it much more. Um like that is true and actually like believe in this vision like 100%.

Um but we also need to realize that there are trade-offs, right? Like there there's cost involved. There's like time to market um considerations. there's um currently still like fragmentations of liquidity, user bases, problems in the UX and everything, right? And so like depending on what you're building, you should go for the stack that makes the most sense for this, right? So in the case of Dydx or um or Osmosis or or others like they know that they can or Stride for example, they know that they can leverage the fact that they control the blockchain itself in order to make a a better product, right? So they should do that. That that's a a really good call. But some applications might value for example like synchronous composability more right for liquidations rehypotheication or or whatever purposes. In that case you want

to have a shared environment and that shared environment will also provide you with you know a bunch of liquidity user base exposure. It will provide you with an easier go to market because a lot of the tools will already be available um and so you you can ship faster basically. And so depending on what you're building you should go for the stack that makes the most sense. And so my take on this is actually that the you know between the general smart contract platform world computer vision and the appchain thesis there's actually it's not just like a black and white thing where where you're either a Cosmos CDK app chain or you're on Ethereum. It's more of a spectrum right where like Neutron is sort of like more on the kind like in between the two because it basically gives you all of the tools to

interact with app chains but it's also itself like a shared settlement layer. Um, but you can have like other like trade-offs, right? So, how about we make roll-ups on neutron whereby you have your own dedicated execution environment, but you still benefit from the shared settlement layer and from, you know, access to IBC, the liquidity on the L1, extra, extra, extra, right? So, in that case, you would be basically almost like an app chain with a little bit less customizability because like there is a settlement layer that you need to conform to. Um, and and so like a little bit less sovereignty but a good deal of customizability. So that may be an interesting trader for for people. Um and and you would still have the ability to have your Cosmos CDK app chain basically. So yeah. Yeah, I I fully agree and I've been talking about this

for a long time here on the podcast. like I I I I I kind of saw this uh this spectrum coming uh you know about 6 months ago where on one end of the spectrum you know if and and I think the the interesting analogy is to compare it to the web and the way that web infrastructure the way the the different configurations in which you can deploy like an application on the web and like to one one extreme you have on one end of that spectrum you have uh you know deploying your website on Squarespace right like that's the the least amount of cost and the the the the easiest way to deploy an application. Uh but you have essentially very little uh control over the underlying infrastructure like many layers of the stack and on the on

the other end you have you know Amazon building their own hardware and uh data center infrastructure and controlling every every component of the stack from from the application all the way to basically the power supplies in those machines. So like and then in in between there's tons of there's tons of uh different configurations. So you may um deploy on your application on like a digital ocean, right? And to me that resembles more like a rollup uh an um rollup style u where you have lots of control over your app and some infrastructure control but not all of it. And then you know you might also deploy on you know on on

Google cloud right where you have like lots of control over the in over the technical infrastructure but not over the data center infrastructure. And so that might resemble more like settlement rollup or something like that. So yeah, I mean these things are modularizing and there's going to be uh there there will be uh ways to deploy applications that suit every type of application depending on uh you know all all sorts of parameters including cost including scale including uh you know security and these sorts of things. Yeah, I think what's going to be really interesting to watch is sort of like people building the transition mechanisms for like between these various trade-offs basically because we're already seeing for example absolutely like dydx sort of like transitioning into an app chain right they they've

reached this this um this point where the product is already awesome um and to take it further they're they need more control over the infrastructure and now they're migrating right but but probably they're doing all of that manually right they're not able to import any of their existing work or or no they have to rebuild the thing basically Basically, now how about we could provide something that allows you to sort of like convert um let's say a chain or a rollup into a chain or a rollup. Um yeah, upscale your infrastructure. Exactly. Like roll kit from Celestia is basically that, right? So you take your Cosmos SDK app chain and then you move it as like you turn it into a um a roll up on Celestia. Probably there's going to be like the way to roll back and that kind of stuff. And so like seeing the

tools that are going to rise to to do this I think is going to be an interesting sort of um trend to watch. Yeah. I've been writing I've been wanting to write this post for for a long time. As soon as I'm done fundraising and as soon as Nebula's over actually like write this blog post describing this whole thing. Yeah. So let's um let's talk a little bit about I mean I don't know. Do you want to talk about the governance first or do you want to talk about the tokconomics and the airdrop? Uh what's uh what's most interesting to you?

I mean, does it really matter? I think what's what's what's important is like what what do you think is interesting to your audience, I guess. Oh, okay. Well, yeah, you're turning into the injury here. Uh let's let's talk about the governance. I think that's I think that's the the coolest thing. I mean, I'm sure people are interested in the tokconomics and and the airdrop, and I I am too, but uh I want to get into the the governance a little bit. So yeah, for sure. Um, so yeah, talk about how that works and what what was the sort of inspiration for the way that governance works at Neutron? That's a good question actually. like we did take a lot of inspiration from like we didn't want to reinvent the wheel although we were like so we were in a situation where we most likely wouldn't

be able to um to like reuse um sort of like the traditional systems in Cosmos eg going through um you know the Cosmos SDK like the Cosmos SDK gov module and call it a day. So we we knew that there's some work would be required. Um and so what we did is we sort of tried to create um infrastructure that would be modular and flexible enough to actually sit the um suit the the variety of needs and functions that would need to happen on a um on a shared execution environment like Cosmos smart contract platform um for the ecosystem to be functional basically so that eventually um what's on chain could become like fully self-sufficient right that that's going to take time obviously but that's

sort of the the the goal And so what we did is we um basically we we we we used data contract because they did a lot of work on you know like how do you make Dows as smart contracts um and they made it very modular which was perfect for our use case. So what we did is we recombined some of their modules into a specific infrastructure. We added a few modules here and there but basically you have um normally you know what controls the chain is a module within the chain itself. Right now we don't have that. So instead what we have to we had to do is we add did the admin module which is a module that allows you to give an address the um like basically like privileges right and so here in this

case in neutron's admin module there's um there's sort of like two addresses one is for the hub and the other one is for the neutron dao um which is a set of smart contract on the chain right so that neutron dowo is able to change the network parameters and it's able to like trigger updates just like normal governance would be able to do it basically owns the entire chain, right? The DAO can change anything on Neutron. It's I imagine it's a bit more flexible than the just plain old Cosmos SDK governance module. Yeah. In terms of how you structure it, like how you structure the voting power and the voting systems, it it's a lot more flexible. Like for example, currently um there already are multiple voting systems like we have single choice proposals like we're accustomed to where you choose one option and that's it. Um we also have like um the

multi- choice proposals where you can have different outcomes with different code being executed and you know the most popular one um gets executed. We could also quadratic voting style or we could have that. We could have like gauges and such. Um for now we don't have the quadic one because of civil resistance is still an issue. Um and there's ways to mitigate it and we're working on on some of these actually for um for purposes like quadratic funding and and stuff. Um but you know like quadratic voting would be really interesting to have eventually but we're not there yet I guess. Um and so yeah so you can choose you know you have modules for how votes are handled. Um, and then there's module like normally there's one module for how you get the voting power,

right? And so the the normal way that this has anoldled is you deposit NRN or the native token of whatever chain or whatever DAO into that voting module and it gives you points of voting power, right? In neutron's case in what we we made a few changes here whereby instead of having one voting module, we actually have a registry first that contains the list of all of the accepted voting modules and each voting module can be um specific basically. So you have the traditional NTN one where if you would just want to deposit NRN and get voting power, you can do that. There's no lockup. That's not needed because we're not staking. We're not securing the blockchain with these tokens. We're just like giving you the power to influence the the network parameters. Um and then we can have other types of vaults. Like

for example, people who participate in the log drop or in the liquid auction, their tokens are currently restricted, right? So they they can't transfer all of them to their wallet. They can't like sell all of these tokens. they're gradually vesting. Um, but while they're vesting, they're actually in a voting vault that basically looks at their LP token, counts the number of NTN in that LP, and gives them voting power that corresponds to the underlying NTN. And we can do this for like a whole bunch of of of different primitives, right? So, let's say in the future there's a great money market on Neutron, and you want to um, you know, deposit collateral in that money market. Well, you can do that and then take the receipt token from the money market, deposit it into a vault and be able to um to to get voting

power. What that gives you is basically um the ability to remove the opportunity cost of of participating in governance because it allows you to participate in DeFi and in governance at the same time without like losing out on on any of these opportunities basically. That's cool. Yeah. And I mean it should be noted that in Neutron token holders can't can't stake their tokens in the same way that they can within Cosmos on the hover or somewhere else. C can you just maybe explain why that why that is so people understand why?

Yeah. So so it's simply because like the staking token for Neutron is Atom, right? So the hub like if you want to stake and validate Neutron, you need to stake Atom on the hub basically. Um and then the hub will let Neutron know who the stakers are. well, what who the validators are and how much voting power they have and that's what um Neutron uses to basically validate its blocks, right? Um yeah. Okay. And so, you know, token holders will want to know then I guess like what they can do with their tokens. Uh we we've got some questions here. I might I might put one of these on on the screen, which is you know, is LIDO still planning to do liquid staking on Neutron? If yes, what the current status and uh do you know if they'll compete with Stride? um if LSM launches on the

hub before they deploy. Yeah, that's a good question. I think like you know as Crypton's pointed out like it's a it's a tricky timing for for for for any liquid staking provider to sort and come in and compete with stride. Um there like yeah we're working on bringing light to to neutron. I think that's likely to happen but obviously it needs to be confirmed by governance as well. There's technical work that's um ongoing. It's not like it's not finished yet. So you know there there will there are some like I can't guarantee that it will happen but I like you know I think it is happening. So looking forward to that and I actually think that there's a very strong like business case for what why that should happen. Um like there's an opportunity here to have a liquid staking token that serves as like the

the foundation to a lot of these DeFi activity that that will be built upon Utron. Um, and so I think I think there's a chance if that can get delivered before the LSM launches and Strive Stride achieves like maximum uh domination of the staking market in Cosmos to actually have a more balanced sort of like like LSD mix in the um in in Cosmos. That that didn't sound right. LSD mix. Maybe this maybe this weekend there's an LSD mix going on. Uh so so yeah coming back to the governance a little bit. Um so there's this DAO structure called Agora and as you mentioned Agora is a cos and wism

implementation of the governance module it has uh well not really it's a it's it's based on DAO and it's a customized implementation of DAO okay that has the power to administrate the chain at the network level thanks to the admin module that that's what we call the agora right um the reason why I call it the agora is because um like as we'll probably get into there like neutron has the like the neutron governance system has the ability to spawn subdows that are part of the entire governance architecture right they're not like separate entity and contracts they're actually part of the governance infrastructure and so as a result of this we expect that there's going to be like the main dow and then subdow x and subdow y and it's just a

lot of dows to have everywhere when you speak so agora was um just like a nice term that represents what it is it's where every token holder can vote on on what happens to the protocol and then the subdows can have their own names um and and such. It's taxonomy to try and keep things clear basically. Yeah. No, that's clear. And can you talk about these different communities uh the committees sorry that are you know subdows essentially within Agora? What are they uh overseeing and you know who elects those committees? How does that whole process work? How do we I mean the short answer is it depends on governance basically like so this whole thing is controlled by the agora right and so the the what's interesting about

like the subdows in in neutron's case is that like once again using that as work and customizing it for the needs of neutron um we have like the main dow the agora has the ability to essentially pull from a library of contracts that are already on chain and instantiate these contracts to create new sub entities right um now in the short term it's likely that those will look like committees. Something like the AA DAO or other Dows on Juno for example where you have like a limited number of people. They each have one vote and they vote on stuff. Um but with two differences I guess. Uh the first one being that the main Dow because it actually created this DAO remains the admin of this DAO.

So it it has the last say basically if you want to dissolve that DAO because it hasn't been performing it can. Um and two because we implemented um something that we call the overrule mechanism which is um you know um if let's say we are a grants committee and we're reviewing applications. Now there's this one application that is either fraudulent or the team is just really bad and it's a really bad investment for the the the network to be uh giving a grant to them but the committee either doesn't say that or their friends or whatever. Um they still approve it, right? So they approve the proposal and tokens should be sent to them by that proposal. Before that actually happens the decision is time locked for like it's locked for three days and anyone in the agora can come in and um you know

contribute voting power to veto that proposal except instead of having to vote like to to do a whole vote right you the the threshold to actually cancel it is very low. it's one or two% of the voting power. And so basically it's like we trust the committees but if they don't do a good job we can prevent them from from doing anything very easily. It just takes one or two% of the voting power of the agora to say like this this doesn't look right. Um so so that's the first thing first few differences but now subdows are actually not limited to being committees. Um we like what's interesting about them is basically that you know we discussed how we have this like framework that's somewhat modular with like the various voting vaults the various voting mechanisms as well and so you could have structures like let's say

we want to do a completely decentralized grants program right um so we don't want to have a committee we want to have ntrn like holders do the grants basically now we could do this just through the agora by making proposals to the agora and voting on them but the problem is that it's it's it doesn't scale very well and it's very annoying for people who don't want to be voting on this all the time. So instead, what we could be doing is we could have for example a two-tiered DAO where you have sort of like a like the the delegate committee and then you have the entire agora but in in another subdow which has then the power to delegate to representatives and then basically like the first tier is everyone. It's the entire Agora and we

vote. We allocate our voting power to whoever we think is a great person to be allocating grants, right? Okay. So, we delegate it. If they pass a certain threshold, then they move to the next tier, to the the top tier where they're actually going to be voting on on things. But let's say you up. I don't want to delegate with you anymore. Well, I just take back my my my voting power and you'll drop from the from the set. And so, we have this dynamic sort of like like liquid democracy basically that we can implement. Um and there's there's basically like sky is the limit kind of with with what you can do with it. Like the whole point of designing the um the governance architecture this way is that a smart contract platform has a whole bunch of things that it needs to do well. It needs to be

allocating resources in most cases like capital but also um other types of resources dynamically between participants to maximize you know the the quality of the developer experience the quality of the the the ecosystem ensure that liquidity is there etc extra there's a whole bunch of things to manage but all of these things um like not all of these things can be automated first and they and like specific mechanisms serve the needs of specific tasks better basically And so the the mechanisms that that is in place on neutron today allows you to essentially have the mechanism that serves the tasks best for each specific task basically.

Are are any of these sub because on on your on the website there's like a a governance uh post that that talks about all this. Uh are these subdows already created and or is just is this just sort of perspective for the moment? So, so there's one one subdow that currently exists as it was part of Genesis. It's the security subdow. Um, the security subdow is a little bit different from other subdows because it has one special power that other Dows don't have. Um, it has the ability to freeze the smart contracts of other subdows. So, it can't freeze the Agora. The Agora is the main power. You can't do anything to the Agora. But for example, in the future, let's say we create a grants proposal and that contract gets hacked or there's

a drastic vulnerability, but there's also like a lot of money into that contract, right? So we don't want it to be exploited. So before we can find a fix and roll it out and have a plan and everything, we can freeze the contracts. Or let's say we have another um subdows that does like payroll in the ecosystem and for some reason the HR department of the network goes rogue um and they want to start like like sending money outside of the of the subdow. Well, we can freeze their their contracts to ensure that that they're not going to do that basically. Um so the the security subdow currently exists. um it's not very active because there's no other subdows, but I expect in the future that there will be proposals to um sort of like extend the scope of what it can do by also sort of having the members of that

subdow um contribute to like you know refining like best practices that could be used by by anyone in the ecosystem basically to evaluate the security of the various dabs that are on the chain. potentially they could sponsor audits um for for some of these applications may maybe make deals with auditors to get like discounts for the projects that launch on neutron. Um so all all of that that sort of stuff. Um so that's for security subdow. I expect the next subdow to launch or to be proposed actually um to be uh grants subdow which you know would receive some tokens from the from from the the Agora and basically have you know reporting performance a funding strategy and and all of these things um and and basically

try to maximize um the number and quality of the projects that are uh launching on Neutron and help some of like the developers sort of like bootstrap on the financial side so that they can commit to building the the the the ideas, the visions that they have basically. Um so yeah, that I'm pretty excited about and um there's been a lot of like work behind the scenes between like like folks who are interested in being on that committee. The way that I expect them to be elected to be that committee is that they've been working on structuring this for months now. And so they'll propose to do this and they'll propose to be like the guys who do it who do it. And then depending on whether or not governance trusts them to do that or not um then that proposal would be accepted. um

in your document you sort of like mentioned elections. Um that's something that's possible um to to to have. For example, for the grand style, let's say the the grand style proposal is approved, but there's one person that the DAO thinks would be really really great and they're not on the committee. The DA like the main DAO can make a proposal to add them to the committee. And let's say now that there's somebody who they really don't like on that committee, same thing. They can make a proposal to remove them from the committee as well. there like the AOR is the admin of everything. Um so that's that's number one.

There's a lots of uh there's lots of like implications here for um you know sort of civil attacks. I guess we don't really have identity or strong identity guarantees for any one address. I guess you could probably leverage uh other systems like you know reputation systems or or even you know signing messages that someone sends to their Twitter account to say like here here this is this is an address that's controlled by me. Um I think there's a couple that can be done here. Um the first thing is that we haven't had the best practices in Cosmos so far like the the committees are somewhat like there's not a lot of reporting

around the activities of of the committees. Um so like when you know when when when we sort of like interacted with people looking to create subdows in um in neutron we sort of like emphasized um on on what the best practices should look look like here. So making sure that the the um the addresses are associated with these people that the manuals to check what what's happening are are there that the you know all of the information about what they're doing is published on the forums which will be released soon for for Neutron as well. So like all of this is sort of like the the lowhanging fruit. Um now there's other systems like you you mentioned some of them actually um that we can put in place in order to avoid sort of like this civil problem in the governance system and it's it's a

real problem like I think there's um um there's at least one sort of like support team in in Cosmos u that that was recently found out to be um actively semb eg they would, you know, pretend to be multiple members, but actually they would get the salary for everybody and just be one person. Um, so like that it's a real problem. What's what was this? What's I didn't see this. I I don't know if it broke out yet, but yeah, there's some DAO somewhere in Cosmos that had multiple members and some of these members were actually the same person and they were all getting paid. So, you know, that's a bit of a problem, right? So, well, if that person was pulling se, you know, 80 hours a week for for for four people, you know, you let them have the

money, you know, they're doing the work. Yeah. But, you know, at that point, might as well not pretend to be multiple person and just say, "Look, guys, I work really really hard. You want me to continue working? You're going to pay me for it." Like, I think that that seems a bit more, you know, transparent and and and and fair um than just I'm curious about the security Dow a little bit. How does uh who who's part of the security DAO and uh what what kind of powers do these individuals in terms of of of power? I I I told you like the only power that the security dow has is the power to pause the contracts of other subdows. That's the only thing that they can do. So currently they have zero power because there's no contracts to be paused basically. Um on the security subdow

there's currently I think Jihan from Informal um Jacob Getty from National notional claimments from Crypto Crew um and one or two members from our team as well. I think Kai and Andre our CTO. So yeah, that that's sort of like the the the composition so far. Um and we'll be putting more information about this, but currently it's it's mostly dormant because there's no contract that they can pose anyway. But we're doing some work on sort of like um trying to put together a framework for like best practices that can then be used at just like a resource, right? So it's it's a document that other subs may may be able to use. Um yeah, now yeah, like for the civil resistance thing, I I actually do think that

there's quite a bunch of of solutions that we can um implement and probably we need to have multiple solutions that sort of like feed into each other. Um, and that that's the case for quadratic voting as well. But basically, um, you know, like what what you mentioned about like having signed messages on Twitter and stuff like that's that's a good first step. Um, reputation systems could be really interesting and I think there's a lot of like very interesting applications with like NFTTS and stuff. Maybe we can work with Stargaze to do some kind of like crosschain identity um, with with with NFTs. Um there's you know for quadratic funding like bitcoin passport is likely to be available in neutron sometimes u towards the end of the year and so that should help sort of like create that score um that reputation system that helps identify um

and reject civils and in in the short term you know like the proposal to recognize the neutron foundation as the sort of like the foundation for the network is passing as far as I know and so that means that we could probably just leverage the foundation to sort of like conduct an additional check just to make sure that you know we're not hiring five times the same person to the DAO um and and getting sort of like screwed this way. Um or there's more trustless mechanisms like there's a chain called hypersign which does like KYC verification and they don't publish the KYC on chain obviously what they do is they publish a proof a zk proof that can then be verified um but but you know you need to design the

right circuit for this and stuff and here the check would be um not checking sort of like what their identity is but the check would be checking that that identity has never been submitted before basically. Yeah those unique Yeah. Yeah, it's it's still gameable, right? Because like how about I really want to be a civil and I'm going to hire this guy like my neighbor to do the KYC on on my behalf, right? So it's it's not perfect. Um that's why I'm talking about like kind of using all of these mechanisms together, right? Because that gives you a lot more confidence. Sure. Interesting. Um no, this is super cool. And uh I think there's lots of uh interesting governance things that we're going to figure out as as this goes on.

Hopefully not too much drama. Don't need more drama. Yeah fingers crossed. Let's cross our fingers. Yeah. Trying our best to sort of be straightforward about things so that like we, you know, set expectations, right, and people know that, you know, um we're genuine and stuff like this. So hopefully that will save us some drama, but but we'll see. Um yeah, it's a permissionless environment, so people can do whatever they want. So, you know, I expect some drama eventually. Let's talk about the tokconomics, the token, the airrop, the lock drop, liquid liquidity auction, all all that stuff.

So, can you uh just walk us through, you know, the airdrop, who's eligible, what people should be, what actions people should be taking right now, uh to claim, uh, you know, an eventual airdrop that they would have received and what things can they do with those tokens once they've claimed them. Yeah, for sure. I mean so you know um as usual disclaimer the antion token is not available to us investors it has not been registered as a security um this information and the assistance and whatever is not provided to us investors or persons basically so if you're a US person I'm really sorry um about that if you were interested sorry um but still so the basically the the mechanism is is

is in like three phases right so the first one is that there there's an airdrop to Cosmos hub um stakers delegators. Basically, that's about 7% of the supply that is um allocated based on stake, right? So, the more atom you had, the more enter you will receive. Um now the the there's two things about this mechanism. It's one what's great about it is that it's civil resistant. So we know that something like you know Prop 16 is sort of like impossible to happen because there's economic cost to being a civil in that in that well I mean it's it's not vulnerable basically.

Um can you just remind me what prop 16 was u the the airdrop of Juno tokens that ended up having like a large distribution to an well to Tkumi who was inadvertently cil on the hub basically. Um so because here it's a civil resistant mechanism and we know that there are civils in Cosmos we went like this mechanism was in place instead which means that you know even if you're a civil it doesn't change your distribution basically um the sort of like bad thing about this is that the neutron distribution there inherits the cosmos hub distribution so the better distributed atom is the better distributed nan is but in reality a lot of the atom is actually concentrated in fewer wallets and so unfortunately

that's the same for the airdrop to some extent the airdrop is concentrated We did put some limitations like a a max cap um at 1 million and then a soft cap that starts at 100 and just like ramps up to mitigate this but you know that's notible resistance. So we couldn't ramp it up too much before having risk basically. Um so that's number one like the airdrop um it's restricted for 3 months like you claim it you have like three months to claim it. Um once you claim it it will start vesting and once it's vested those tokens are yours. In the meantime, you get the voting power anyway. So, you can start participating in governance already. Now, phase two was the liquid auction. Um the liquid auction is basically um we created two pools like there the the DAO like the

code basically creates two two pools um which are filled with NTN tokens, right? And then people can come in in front of these pools and deposit the other side EG either atom or USDC. Um, and so what that does is that as more deposits are made, just like a just like a liquidity pool, the the exchange ratio, the price changes basically. And so that mechanism over time allowed the price of ENT to be discovered. Um, and at the end of the event, these like all of the NN and all of the Atom or USDC deposits were merged into two liquidity pools that are now on Astropport. um and um and they're locked for um well they're invested for three months basically uh as well and so you know if you participated in the event

you now have LB tokens that represent um some NTRN and some USDC or atom depending on what you deposited um and so the point of that phase was a few things the first one is that mechanism ensures that everybody gets the same price so whether you're a very sophisticated sort of like high frequency trader or you're you know somebody who's discovering DeFi and Cosmos and like the what like whether you participate or not, you're going to get the same price. Basically, you're going to get the same price as everybody. And one of the reasons why that's important is first to protect people who are like learning these things so that they don't get like, you know, dumped on the day after by more sophisticated actors who got a better price. Um, but also because it allows

the incentives basically creates this sort of like soft um floor at which like if you know if the price goes lower, we're all underwater anyway. So we have no incentives to dump further. Um and our incentives is set to like let's make this um this like successful basically um and the other way around as well. So basically that mechanism was tailored to protect people from market manipulation from uh the differences in like experience from the various participants make sure that everybody gets the same price. And from the network's perspective, what it does is that it bootstraps um like a fairly high amount of liquidity that exists on the chain and some of which is actually owned by the DAO. Um that ensures that the you know whatever happens even if the market

crashes tomorrow um there will be some liquidity that's there. So the system as a whole remains functional regardless of of what happens. Basically it's um it's it's not designed to pump the chain. It's designed to make it more difficult to kill basically. um to make it more resilient. Um and so it it's it serves as a a way to lay the foundations of of the DeFi ecosystem basically. Now there's a last phase to the event which is the log drop whereby if you participated in the liquid auction um you know your LP tokens are vested over three months but you can decide to lock them for longer um which is basically yeah you're committing your tokens for longer your liquidity and in exchange for that you're getting incentives up

front right so if you participate in the lock drop you can already claim your your your rewards they're like it's a share of 1% of the interior end supply um and it depends yeah So that's sort of like the initial distribution of voting power in Neutron currently. Very cool. Um so people have been asking here in the in the chat uh which projects are coming to Neutron and when will be they be coming on Neutron someone else lots of projects soon TM yeah tell us a bit about the the the ecosystem of projects that we can expect on Neutron. Yeah. So, we're actively working on like bringing Lido. That's

the first thing. Um, there's a proposal right now on the Mars governance system to deploy on Neutron as the the second outpost for Mars, which would provide, you know, a lending and borrowing market for for Neutron. Um, I as far as I like from my conversation with the NAST team, I believe that the first outpost that they'll ever have will be on Neutron. That's another sort of like um lending and borrowing mechanism, but it's different from Mars and what they're trying to achieve. Um there's um an NFT marketplace called Craft that's looking to deploy for the first time in Cosmos via Neutron. Um there's, you know, um likely going to be a Stargaze outpost as well, although I'm not sure about the the timeline there. I think um well, Cosmos Swap like Osmosis's outpost model already announced that they would be

deploying an outpost on Neutron as well. Um yeah, I don't have the full list in mind, but basically we have sort of like these these bases covered. Um there yeah if you want a full list of the projects that are like deploying on neutron like I actually showed a visualization during my talk at gateway there's like I think at that time it was about 38 projects that we're launching in the next few months. Some of them are actually already live like Astroport for example is already live. You can use it right now. There's some um tools that are available as well. Um, and yeah, we're there's a few assets that are coming to Neutron as well soon that I think people are going to be excited about.

Great. I'm looking forward to it. Uh, I think it's going to be it's going to be interesting to see this ecosystem grow and uh, you know, I think this this brings me to my my final question which is related to Oh, actually, sorry, hold that thought. Uh yeah, the two things I forgot to mention like um Apollo is also going to be deploying you know their their vaults and strategies and stuff and they've like during the the deli hackathon on neutron recently they've built something that's pretty incredible which is you know yield splitting protocol whereby let's say you're providing liquidity on a report you have a LP token now that token has value for two reasons right it has value for because it represents an

underlying share of tokens right let's say n and atom um but it also has value because it's going to receive incentives and trading fees extra like the yield. Right? Now, you can split those two, represent them with different tokens, and that allows you to do a whole bunch of stuff. Like, for example, you can borrow, but without risk of liquidation by selling your yield, your future yield, and buying more of the principle with it. Um, you can do the contrary. You can get more exposure to the yield if you think it's going to be really good by selling the principle and keeping the yield and expecting that you're going to get more tokens. uh this way extra extra and so you can use this to make more complex strategies um in in vaults and stuff. So that's another thing that I I would be looking forward

to. Sorry for interrupting though. No, no, no problem. That's it. I'm sure people will be glad to know that as well. Um, so yeah, you know, to wrap up here like I want to I want to understand the long-term vision is here because if you look at the Cosmos ecosystem, there's at least three other Cosmos smart contract chains and there's lots of EVM chains and you know, a lot of these smart contract letter ones are popping up uh with on the feature set, you know, some unique ique differences between them but very similar feature sets or at least you know feature sets that could be replicated fairly easily between so

essentially these things are like competing on the same features what is the niche that you guys are um are chasing are going after and you know who are you targeting specifically what what kinds of of of applications would you like to see built on Neutron and you know how does Neutron stand out from you know the Junos the archways, the Amoses, the Kantos, and and all the other ones. Yeah, I mean that that's a good question. We're for this current phase of Neutron's life, we think the right target is cross D5 application builders. U basically like Neutron has a few major differences that are sort of hard to replicate. Like

for example, it seems unlikely to me at this point that the hub would replicate like provide replicated security to another cosmos smart contract platform because that would feel a bit like a interesting investment decision basically. So the first thing is like it is unique because of its position within the ecosystem, its alignment with the hub and sort of like the the strong collaboration there um in terms of security but also in terms of like sharing revenue, sharing fate basically. Um, so that's that's the first difference and second thing is like most of the work that went into like building Neutron itself went into building the crosschain infrastructure that would be accessible um key in hand to the smart contracts on neutron right and so the

idea is that instead of you know like traditionally if you're a smart contract platform your goal is to have everything in your ecosystem you want every dab to be exclusive to your ecosystem because that's what brings value and activity and stuff to you. Neutron sort of like flips this narrative on its head whereby we don't need that to happen. Actually, what what what Neutron needs to be successful is simply it needs to be used as sort of like a gateway to all of these things as the coordination mechanism for DeFi DAPs as you know sort of like the the the platform that hosts a lot of the crosschain infrastructure that's built in the ecosystem like stuff like the allocator and um and and and and so on. Um and so that is actually happening already. um stuff like for example well I mean the allocator and

and and others are currently getting built on neutron and so they will be providing value to the entire ecosystem um quadratic funding and bringing that to neutron is also one like something that goes into that direction right we're bringing it to neutron um for two reasons the first one is that it's much easier to get um you know like if you go to a large Ethereum protocol and you tell them hey can you launch on my chain and and you're a cosmos chain they're probably going to look at you like not sure you have the market the market size for to for that to make economical sense to us. Right now what new transgression infrastructure changes is that it the the pitch changes drastically. Right?

It's hey do you want to deploy on one chain eg you only have to do the work once and then get exposure access to the entire cosmos ecosystem of 51 blockchains. that's a very different like business decision to make for these applications, right? And so, for example, with Gitcoin, we're working on on bringing Bitcoin to Neutron, which will then be um you know, tailored like designed to be accessible by every chain so that you know it's not just Neutron benefiting from this. It's the entire ecosystem now has a new primitive to fund infrastructure um and public goods all across the Cosmos ecosystem, right? And so that helps like from from Neutron's business case perspective that helps solidify Neutron's um central position in the ecosystem. But from the ecosystems perspective, it's also a net

benefit because we're bringing new mechanisms, new funding streams. We're helping projects basically grow and have more resources to to to go on basically. Um so I would say that that sort of like fundamental shift between oh we want everything to be neutron specific to no we we want everything to benefit the entire ecosystem and we will help provide that and in in so doing we will become an important part of the ecosystem that will you know not be lost or or or disappear because you know we we are so valuable like what what Neutron this project this blockchain provides is so valuable to the ecosystem as a whole that the ecosystem wants it to remain. basically.

Um, so it's it's sort of like a different mental model, I guess, on on how you approach the project. It's not competitive. It's it's very collaborative in nature. Yeah. And it comes back to this whole topic of of ICS, right? And I think that, you know, these 20 or so chains that will will be on IC will have to be highly aligned in terms of their compliment complimentality and uh and also the value that they kind of bring to this ecosystem that's being built around IC, right? So like you have Neutron which is execution. Uh we'll have you know uh we'll have uh uh Stride which does liquid staking. We'll have you Noble that does USDC and other stable coins and and other you know very important building blocks to building a

a decentralized application ecosystem. you know, maybe we'll have, you know, offchain execution or or storage or like all all these essential building blocks to uh to um to to building decentralized applications will kind of live there. And I see that as like kind of the future of the hub is like building this. Yeah. All of these uh kind of agree. Yeah. All these blocks to to build better decentralized applications secured by the Cosmo stuff. Yeah. Bring gravity back. bring grav gravity bridge back because it's very insecure currently and it makes sense for the hub to have a good bridge but well I mean actually I I removed this comment please don't cancel it um great well uh it's been great having you

on uh really interesting conversation I hope people liked it quite a few people in the live stream so uh thank you so much for for coming on and I I just want to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit about uh what you guys are doing at either summit so Neutron is the title sponsor of Nebula Summit this year. We're super excited to have them and uh you know couldn't be more pleased to have them as a partner and uh so I yeah you'll be giving a talk and you'll also be giving a workshop. Do you want to talk a little bit about u the workshop that uh Neutron will be delivering on hack day?

Yeah. So, we'll basically we're we're putting together a lot of resources for people to sort of like hit the ground running and then we'll be walking you through um building sort of like a simple crosschain um set of smart contracts on Neutron. Don't want to spoil too much like what it's going to do, but um basically if you've been interested in, you know, the infrastructure on Neutron um and want to learn a bit more about it, well, it's going to be a really good um sort of like time to basically get cracking with it, have somebody to help guide you through the motions there. um and and and get something built quickly. So, I think that's going to be pretty interesting to to attend to. I'm looking forward to see basically anyone who wants to to attend and and come chill.

There we go. Chill vibes. Oh, I was muted. Uh I was going to say I'm going to show the website uh nebul.builders. This is where you can get tickets to Nebula Summit. Once again, that's July 24th, 25th. That's Monday and Tuesday after ETC. So, if you're coming to ETC and you're going to Osmo and you're going to modular Summit, stay for an extra couple of days to come to Nebular. And you can also register for Nebular hack day. That's on July 23rd and it's completely free. So, you know, whether or not you have a Nebular ticket, you can come to hack day and uh the details of of hack day and all the workshops are here. So, we also have workshop by Juno. It's happening at the same time as the Neutron workshop which is uh for now anyway. That's that's what

we set it up here in the agenda. Maybe we'll we'll we'll change it so but uh you know some interesting post you guys made. Yeah. Well, I mean this is still kind of pending, right? I mean this might change a little bit. We also have OK4. They're doing a workshop on the main stage. OKP4 is a French team. We had tail on the podcast two weeks ago. And then DYDX is also giving a workshop which will be really cool as well. Uh so that's for anybody who's you know technical enough to deploy a smart contract and you know knows how to code. So we we encourage people to that have development experience to to come to hack day. Uh and then for Nebula Summit well you know it's it's two days of technical talks and so you know go check out our speaker lineup. Um how are you know oh there you

are. You're on the home page right here. Yeah. Uh we have Polymer Labs. We have Yelena from Noble. Dean from Agoric. Uh Ishmail from Celestia. Ismile from Lrange. Uh uh Dan from cosmology, we have Guy from Secret, Yara from Lava Network, you uh we help Bushian from Blockless, uh Henry from Penumbra, and many more familiar faces in the cosmo ecosystem. Sunny and Manfred from No. So this is also this is also uh uh growing. So we're we're adding new speakers uh every every couple of days and we'll have the agenda up soon. And I hope you'll check out the venue as well. The venue is Albert School. It's such a cool space and I know everyone is going to

love it. Uh it's an old ceramics factory and so it has that very unique art deco Parisian vibe from like late 19th century and um we're we're super excited to be having it here. So that's that's Nebula Summit and uh it's happening in wow like five and a half weeks. So we we need to get our act together and get things get things ready. really looking forward to it. Um, yeah, it's going to be an interesting few weeks preparing for everything. Cool, man. So, thanks again. Thanks so much and I'll see you soon.

Cheers. Thanks for having me on. They